Mallard Fillmore 7/16
leno...@yahoo.com
I find it weird that Tinsley doesn't seem to be aware that in many
circles (though not all, I understand), "articulate" is not a term you
use to refer to adults in GENERAL, because to many, an eloquent adult
is one thing, but an articulate adult is something to be taken for
granted.
See here for a thread I started in 2006 (very long, for this group)
Excerpts:
......in an article about some black basketball player, the writer
pointed out that (on the other hand) Larry Bird is not articulate -
but that most writers would not be so rude as to say that in so many
words, because it would make him sound like an uneducated child.
Or, as Vernon Jordan's book title quotes a white man as saying,
"Vernon Can Read!"
Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> I don't know. In my experience, adults of all varieties
> get called articulate rather frequently,
Different environments, I guess. *I* don't hear that word used to
refer to adults of any color in my personal life - or if I have, I've
forgotten it.
> I don't think there's
> anything at all problematic about describing someone who
> has a particular skill at verbalizing ideas as articulate,
> regardless of the persons race, education, or background.
I just think there's a significant difference between "articulate" and
"eloquent" that's similar the one between "polite" and "noble." That
is, IMHO, adults don't get called eloquent unless they're well above
the average adult in speaking/writing skills. Whereas being articulate
is something to take for granted, though in children, you have to
measure it according to the child's grade year.
And one Web search had these results:
"articulate black"
about 10,200 pages
"articulate white"
about 346 pages
Lenona.
Paul Ciszek
In article <02f02628-087d-4d33...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
<leno...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>http://www.jewishworldreview.com/strips/mallard/2000/mallard1.asp
>
>I find it weird that Tinsley doesn't seem to be aware that in many
>circles (though not all, I understand), "articulate" is not a term you
>use to refer to adults in GENERAL, because to many, an eloquent adult
>is one thing, but an articulate adult is something to be taken for
>granted.
>
>See here for a thread I started in 2006 (very long, for this group)
I don't hear it used quite that way. "Articulate" is desireable but not
universal; think of it as a job requirement that not all applicants
posses.
--
Please reply to: | President Bush is promoting Peace and Democracy
pciszek at panix dot com | in the Middle East by selling Weapons to the
Autoreply is disabled | King of Saudi Arabia.
Ted Kerin
<leno...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:02f02628-087d-4d33...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.jewishworldreview.com/strips/mallard/2000/mallard1.asp
>
> And one Web search had these results:
>
> "articulate black"
> about 10,200 pages
>
> "articulate white"
> about 346 pages
>
>
"Articulate man OR woman," without reference to the person being black or
African-American (Google search: articulate man OR woman -black -"african
american"):
about 2,820,000 pages
Rob Wynne
Yeah, taking off the quotes tends to do that to a search.
"articulate man" OR "articulate woman" -"african-american" -"black
gets 32,000 hits.
"articulate man" -"african-american" -"black"
gets 20,300 hits.
Of course, that proves little, given that the first hit on that last search
has:
"Keyes is a very articulate man"
in reference to Alan Keyes, an African-American.
See also: D'israeli's Three Kinds of Lies.
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2009: Jan 9-11, 2009 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Ted Kerin
"Rob Wynne" <d...@america.net> wrote in message
news:4z1gk.261$AB3....@eagle.america.net...
> Ted Kerin <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> <leno...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:02f02628-087d-4d33...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> http://www.jewishworldreview.com/strips/mallard/2000/mallard1.asp
>>
>>>
>>> And one Web search had these results:
>>>
>>> "articulate black"
>>> about 10,200 pages
>>>
>>> "articulate white"
>>> about 346 pages
>>>
>>>
>>
>> "Articulate man OR woman," without reference to the person being black or
>> African-American (Google search: articulate man OR woman -black -"african
>> american"):
>>
>> about 2,820,000 pages
>>
>
> Yeah, taking off the quotes tends to do that to a search.
>
> "articulate man" OR "articulate woman" -"african-american" -"black
>
> gets 32,000 hits.
>
> "articulate man" -"african-american" -"black"
>
> gets 20,300 hits.
>
> Of course, that proves little, given that the first hit on that last
> search
> has:
>
> "Keyes is a very articulate man"
>
> in reference to Alan Keyes, an African-American.
>
> See also: D'israeli's Three Kinds of Lies.
>
Good point, about the Keyes example. I only added man OR woman to eliminate
(at least to some degree) hits that refer to an "articulate" mechanical
device. (Of course, an article can talk about an "articulate device" and
also use the word man.) But my only point is that "articulate" is by no
means an unused or obsolete word, with reference to people who, to coin a
phrase, happen to be white.
That being said, I agree that the infamous reference to Obama as an
articulate black man was gauche and, intentionally or not, tinged with
racism.
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Ted Kerin <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Good point, about the Keyes example. I only added man OR woman to
> eliminate (at least to some degree) hits that refer to an
> "articulate" mechanical device. (Of course, an article can talk
> about an "articulate device" and also use the word man.) But my only
> point is that "articulate" is by no means an unused or obsolete
> word, with reference to people who, to coin a phrase, happen to be
> white.
>
> That being said, I agree that the infamous reference to Obama as an
> articulate black man was gauche and, intentionally or not, tinged
> with racism.
The "Boondocks" episode "Garden Party" had a bunch of white suburban
liberals cooing over Huey after he said some horribly radical thing to
them. One of the more memorable comments was "Oh, he's so
*articulate*!" I have a feeling Aaron McGruder feels the same way
about that word as you do.
One of the problems with the Google search game is that "articulate"
is also a verb. And in case anyone has lingering doubts about how
silly that particular exercise is, I got 4,810 hits for '"joe cocker"
+articulate.'
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dann
@reader1.panix.com.
> One of the problems with the Google search game is that "articulate"
> is also a verb. And in case anyone has lingering doubts about how
> silly that particular exercise is, I got 4,810 hits for '"joe cocker"
> +articulate.'
~73,200 for ' "bob dylan" +articulate'
--
Regards,
Dann
blogging at http://web.newsguy.com/dainbramage/blog.htm
Freedom works; each and every time it is tried.
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote, quoting
me:
> > One of the problems with the Google search game is that "articulate"
> > is also a verb. And in case anyone has lingering doubts about how
> > silly that particular exercise is, I got 4,810 hits for '"joe
> > cocker" +articulate.'
>
> ~73,200 for ' "bob dylan" +articulate'
And in case the premise hasn't been beaten to death quite enough yet,
c. 418,000 hits for '"george w. bush" +articulate -inarticulate.'
Ted Kerin
"J.D. Baldwin" <INVALID...@example.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:g5t68r$51d$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> In the previous article, Dann <deto...@hotmail.com> wrote, quoting
> me:
>> > One of the problems with the Google search game is that "articulate"
>> > is also a verb. And in case anyone has lingering doubts about how
>> > silly that particular exercise is, I got 4,810 hits for '"joe
>> > cocker" +articulate.'
>>
>> ~73,200 for ' "bob dylan" +articulate'
>
> And in case the premise hasn't been beaten to death quite enough yet,
> c. 418,000 hits for '"george w. bush" +articulate -inarticulate.'
> --
All interesting, but...Just to lay another lash on this deceased equine, the
fact remains that, whether "articulate" was used inappropriately, ironically
or in conjunction with "famously not very" -- Cocker, Dylan and Bush are
white dudes. I'm just sayin' -- the word ain't dead, nor particularly
antiquated, nor confined to awkward left-handed compliments applied to
African Americans, as was at least tentatively suggested earlier in the
thread.
leno...@yahoo.com
>
> All interesting, but...Just to lay another lash on this deceased equine, the
> fact remains that, whether "articulate" was used inappropriately, ironically
> or in conjunction with "famously not very" -- Cocker, Dylan and Bush are
> white dudes. I'm just sayin' -- the word ain't dead, nor particularly
> antiquated, nor confined to awkward left-handed compliments applied to
> African Americans, as was at least tentatively suggested earlier in the
> thread.
So it's becoming more acceptable to point out rich white people who
are INarticulate. Fine. Perfectly fair.
Question is, when you leave aside something as unscientific (I admit)
as Google, how often, in your daily life, do you see adults of any
color referred to as "articulate" in the newspapers - or TV, for that
matter?
Lenona.
Dann
news:6ejjgaF...@mid.individual.net.
Facts!!??!?!
Rational opinion!!????!!??!
We don't appreciate that sort of language around here, buddy.
Ted Kerin
"Dave Brown" <dagb...@LART.ca> wrote in message
news:trl36g...@phb.lart.ca...
> In article <6ejjgaF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Ted Kerin <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> I'm just sayin' -- the word ain't dead, nor particularly
>> antiquated, nor confined to awkward left-handed compliments
>> applied to African Americans, as was at least tentatively
>> suggested earlier in the thread.
>
>
> Well, in my case, those would be very high compliments indeed.
>
> --Dave, southpaw
It's cool -- I can say it, just like African-Americans can say the n-word
(or can they?).
-- Ted, southpaw & proud
leno...@yahoo.com
> So it's becoming more acceptable to point out rich white people who
> are INarticulate. Fine. Perfectly fair.
Or, to clarify: "It's becoming acceptable to point out
inarticulateness in well-off adults who choose to be in the public
eye."
After all, expecting public figures to learn to speak in complete
sentences and/or get elocution lessons or else talk less is hardly
akin to demanding they get plastic surgery.
Lenona.
Ted Kerin
Lenona, I don't know what to tell you. "Articulate" is a perfectly good
word. There's nothing weird or sneaky or particulary hi-falutin' about it.
If I don't use it every day, I bet I use it or hear it every week, or at
least every month, and in perfectly reasonable and appropriate contexts,
having nothing to do with whether somebody is rich or famous or white --
yeesh.. (Maybe it's because I happen to hear a lot of public speakers or
group presentations and hear discussions about them afterward, I don't
know. ) And even if I heard it only once a year, it is still a good word. If
you personally never hear the word except when someone is being insulted, or
if you personally don't use the word, fine. And I'm sorry if I accidentally
offended you. But I refuse to consign a perfectly good word to the dustbin,
just because occasionally some fool uses it wrong, or uses it while saying
something otherwise just stupid. As George Carlin said, we have few enough
good words, and I won't help lay this one to waste.
racs...@gmail.com
> lenona...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Jul 21, 10:05 am, "Ted Kerin" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> >> All interesting, but...Just to lay another lash on this deceased
> >> equine, the fact remains that, whether "articulate" was used
> >> inappropriately, ironically or in conjunction with "famously not
> >> very" -- Cocker, Dylan and Bush are white dudes. I'm just sayin' --
> >> the word ain't dead, nor particularly antiquated, nor confined to
> >> awkward left-handed compliments applied to African Americans, as was
> >> at least tentatively suggested earlier in the thread.
>
> > So it's becoming more acceptable to point out rich white people who
> > are INarticulate. Fine. Perfectly fair.
>
> > Question is, when you leave aside something as unscientific (I admit)
> > as Google, how often, in your daily life, do you see adults of any
> > color referred to as "articulate" in the newspapers - or TV, for that
> > matter?
> Lenona, I don't know what to tell you. "Articulate" is a perfectly good
> word. There's nothing weird or sneaky or particulary hi-falutin' about it.
> If I don't use it every day, I bet I use it or hear it every week, or at
> least every month, and in perfectly reasonable and appropriate contexts,
> having nothing to do with whether somebody is rich or famous or white --
> yeesh.. (Maybe it's because I happen to hear a lot of public speakers or
> group presentations and hear discussions about them afterward, I don't
> know. ) And even if I heard it only once a year, it is still a good word. If
> you personally never hear the word except when someone is being insulted, or
> if you personally don't use the word, fine. And I'm sorry if I accidentally
> offended you. But I refuse to consign a perfectly good word to the dustbin,
> just because occasionally some fool uses it wrong, or uses it while saying
> something otherwise just stupid. As George Carlin said, we have few enough
> good words, and I won't help lay this one to waste.
I have to say that I hear the word mostly in a context of surprise.
Not always: There are time someone says, "Oh, yes, he's very
articulate ..." as part of a long list of good things about this
person.
But far more often, it indicates surprise. A person who is not a
college graduate, for example, or a person representing blue collar
people in general, or a good-looking woman (ugly broads are allowed to
be articulate without anyone mentioning it) or ... a minority.
It does have a non-amazed context, as part of a long list of
attributes. But when it moves to the forefront of how a person is
being described, then, yes, you have to be suspicious.
Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com
leno...@yahoo.com
synonym for "eloquent" and the people around you know that, fine. But
when you're among people you don't know so well and they don't know
you well, don't assume THEY apply the word to adults, normally -
listen and find out.
As I mentioned, I almost never hear the word used, whether in mixed
company or not.
Lenona.
Sherwood Harrington
I hear it a lot, but usually as a verb and pronounced with the last "a"
long.
--
Sherwood Harrington
Boulder Creek, California
Mike Beede
<d26684b8-fb35-4018...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org" <racs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It does have a non-amazed context, as part of a long list of
> attributes. But when it moves to the forefront of how a person is
> being described, then, yes, you have to be suspicious.
That was very articulate for a journalist.
I hear "articulate" what seems to be pretty frequently in reviews,
for what it's worth. I think that the fact we're actually even
talking about this is due to the culture of offendability that
has been developing in the U.S. for the last N years.
And I'd like to hasten to point out that "N" in mathematics
usually refers to an undetermined integer, and I didn't mean
any offense to any members of the radio audience.
Mike Beede
Mike Beede
Sherwood Harrington <sherw...@SPAMrahul.net> wrote:
Meaning "pronouncify?"
Mike Beede
Harold Burton
<d26684b8-fb35-4018...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
<"pete...@SPAMnelliebly.org"> wrote:
In a society where in a dialog every third or fourth word is "like",
this is surprising, how?