> > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:20:46 +0000, Dann sez: > >> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that > >> I'd otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the > time >> they come out in trade paperbacks.
> > So they've abolished libraries in your part of the world?
> No, but those places always want their books back in unreasonable > amounts of time. Sometimes it takes more than a few weeks to wedge in > some serious reading amidst quilting and warring and comic strips and > kvetching and....you get the point.
For me, that depends on the popularity of the book. My library allows to renew (online) a book that has not been requested by anyone else, up to three renewals. That's eight weeks total.
Brian
-- If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Default User <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote: > For me, that depends on the popularity of the book. My library allows > to renew (online) a book that has not been requested by anyone else, up > to three renewals. That's eight weeks total.
Most books are longer than eight pages, though, aren't they?
-- Sherwood Harrington Moving his lips in Boulder Creek, California
On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:04:30 +0000, Sherwood Harrington sez:
(after Default User wrote)
>> My library allows to renew (online) a book that has not been >> requested by anyone else, up to three renewals. That's eight >> weeks total. > Most books are longer than eight pages, though, aren't they?
He shoots... he scores!
-- Peter B. Steiger Cheyenne, WY If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes where you see stars: wypbs.**1 at gmail.com (yes, that's a new address)
Sherwood Harrington wrote: > Default User <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > For me, that depends on the popularity of the book. My library > > allows to renew (online) a book that has not been requested by > > anyone else, up to three renewals. That's eight weeks total.
> Most books are longer than eight pages, though, aren't they?
If you're only reading a page a week, it's probably hard to remember what you've already read. You could just get one book and start over when you reach the end every three-four years.
Brian
-- If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Dann wrote: > On 29 Apr 2008, James Nicoll said the following in news:fv7e58$e99$1 > @reader2.panix.com.
>> In article <Xns9A8F4AD928176detox665hotmail...@64.209.0.81>, >> Dann <detox...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Very interesting. I like reading and I see far too many books that I'd >>> otherwise pass up at $25 a copy and typically forget by the time they >>> come out in trade paperbacks.
>> Casts "detect preferences".
>> I'm going to assume you know about the Baen Free Library but >> did you know about this:
I only wish it was that easy. Pretty soon, you start bleeping enough that all the bleeping names bleeping run together. Kind of bleeping hard to keep the bleeping plot straight when every character has the same bleeping name.
Dann <detox...@hotmail.com> writes: > You ain't just whistling Dixie! They all have three names. Some of > which they use, some of which they don't, some they shorten, some they > don't, and then there are nicknames!
This is based on 20 year old memories from Rrrrussian class, but I believe it's reasonably accurate:
Every Russian has three names. A given name (e.g. Ivan), which is just like a given name anywhere else in the world; a patronymic, which is based on the person's father's name plus a suffix meaning daughter or son (e.g. Ivanovich, "son of Ivan"); and a family name or surname, which is almost the same as anywhere else with the surname tradition, except that women's surnames are always inflected so they end in -a, the ending for the female gender in Russian (e.g. Ivanov for men, Ivanova for women).
So let's look at our friend Ivan Ivanovich Ivanova.
If you don't know him well, say he's a neighbor or a workmate with whom you don't socialize much, you'll call him by first name and patronymic: Ivan Ivanovich.
If he's a friend, you'll call him by a familiar form of his given name. Never Ivan, but perhaps Vanya.
Every Russian kid gets called by a sickly-sweet familiar form of his or her given name, at least within the family, until old enough to fight back and sometimes beyond. So if he's your son, brother, or other close relative, you might call him something like Vanochka, especially when he's very young.
He will only be called by his full name, either Ivan Ivanov or more likely Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov, in an official situation, such as in court. You might however refer to him by all three names in the third person, if you want to make sure the person you're talking to understands exactly which Ivan Ivanovich you mean, or if you're introducing him to someone.
Official figures might be referred to by first name and surname, but not necessarily. Boris Yeltsin was apparently usually called "Boris Nikolaevich" in newspapers and on television, for instance.
While we're speaking of public figures, one of my irration pet peeves is hearing the late wife of the last leader of the (late) Soviet Union referred to as "Raisa Gorbachev". It should have been Raisa Gorbacheva.
Finally, there are several standard ways of transliterating Cyrillic to Roman letters, none of which are perfect. "Gorbachev", for instance, could also be written "Gorbachyov". So don't be surprised if you see the same name spelled two different ways in two different translations, though they *should* be consistent within the same book, or the translator should be shot.
And now you understand a little more of why I decided two semesters of Russian was all I could take.
On May 1, 3:05 am, Cindy Kandolf <ci...@bizet.nethelp.no> wrote:
> While we're speaking of public figures, one of my irration pet peeves > is hearing the late wife of the last leader of the (late) Soviet Union > referred to as "Raisa Gorbachev". It should have been Raisa > Gorbacheva.
That cuts both ways -- Anna Karenina's husband's last name is generally translated Karenina but should be Karenin. The novel just became too well known by the proper (that is, correct) name of the character, so her husband must conform in translation. And you're right: It's wrong. I find it more improper when the woman is known on her own than when she is a spouse.
I think it has a lot to do with transliteration: Icelandic names are patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end of a woman's name with -son. I suspect if Russian names were initially written in western script, the -a would be more commonly left alone.
I think a lot of translators of novels let the male and female family names be the same in order to avoid more confusion. In "War and Peace," it's easier to let all the Rostovs remain Rostovs rather than have siblings Nicholai Ilyanovich Rostov and Natalya Ilyanovna Rostova appear to be unrelated. And I believe that Natalya Ilyanovna is called "Natasha" throughout the book in order to distinguish her from her mother, for whom she was named and who, on the rare occasions she isn't called "Countess Rostov" is Natalya.
Nicholai, who joins the army at the beginning of the book, is only rarely called "Nikolenka" and then only by his sister in affectionate moments. However, their little brother, Pyotr, is always "Petya" -- but anyone who has made it to the end of the book will understand why it was important for him to retain his childish nickname throughout, even though he is 16 or 17 by the climax of the story. But Prince Andrei's son Nicholai is refered to exclusively (at least in the translations I've read) as "Nikolenka" throughout, because he is still a very small child at the end of the war.
The confusing thing for me the first time through that book was that Tolstoy has a family called "Kuragin" and another called "Karagin." They have nothing in common except enough position within society that they share a lot of mutual acquaintances -- Anatole Kuragin is a dandy, a rake and a truly despicable SOB, while Julie Karagin(a) is something of a priss: a good-hearted but rather vapid and unattractive woman. I can only assume that the names are far more distinct from each other in Russian -- perhaps as Jones and Johnson would be in English. Otherwise, it seems like a poor choice on Tolstoy's part because there are some adult siblings in the story and they most decidedly are not related.
Of course, the real problem is that, when Tolstoy died, they took down his website. It was all explained in the letters.
> On May 1, 3:05 am, Cindy Kandolf <ci...@bizet.nethelp.no> wrote:
>> While we're speaking of public figures, one of my irration pet peeves >> is hearing the late wife of the last leader of the (late) Soviet Union >> referred to as "Raisa Gorbachev". It should have been Raisa >> Gorbacheva.
Many thanks to Cindy for the [much longer] explanation.
> I think it has a lot to do with transliteration: Icelandic names are > patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end > of a woman's name with -son. I suspect if Russian names were initially > written in western script, the -a would be more commonly left alone.
My copy of "On the Eve" had a list of character names at the beginning of the book. My copy of "Devils" [Oxford World's Classics - trans by Michael R. Katz] has footnotes that explain some of the more obsure references made in the book. They have increased my appreciation of the book immensely.
On a side note, Mr. Katz must have thought that the French socialist [François Marie Charles] Fourier was well enough known that there was no need to explain who he was within that footnote. Not to be confused with French mathematician [Jean Baptiste Joseph] Fourier who's work I have a modest familiarity.
> Of course, the real problem is that, when Tolstoy died, they took down > his website. It was all explained in the letters.
<chuckle>
None of which explains how the heck do you pronounce Fyodor!!
This place suggests that it should be "FYUU-dur", but the mp3 file sounds a little more like "Fee-yu-door" to my untrained ear.
On May 1, 7:54 am, Dann <detox...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My copy of "Devils" [Oxford World's Classics - trans by Michael > R. Katz] has footnotes that explain some of the more obsure references made > in the book. They have increased my appreciation of the book immensely.
You'll notice that nobody refers to those two charming little fellows as "Petya" and "Nikolenka."
> This place suggests that it should be "FYUU-dur", but the mp3 file sounds a > little more like "Fee-yu-door" to my untrained ear.
I've always kind of changed the "Th" in Theodore to an "F," sped up the initial two syllables into one (Fee-O) and then pronounced it with a Russian accent.
Actually, what I' ve REALLY always done is just referred to him as "Dostoevsky." It's not like I have to differentiate him from Oliver Wendall Doestoevsky who served in the Duma.
On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:
> Icelandic names are > patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end > of a woman's name with -son.
Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his name.
Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.
-- Peter B. Steiger Cheyenne, WY If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes where you see stars: wypbs.**1 at gmail.com (yes, that's a new address)
On Thu, 1 May 2008, Peter B. Steiger wrote: > On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:
>> Icelandic names are >> patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end >> of a woman's name with -son.
> Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries > Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's > daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his > name.
> Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.
As I understand Icelandic names, that doesn't happen. She would just be Helga [herfather]sdottir married to Snorri Heimdallsson.
I once met a woman who immigrated to the US as a child, and the immigration officer didn't like that they all had different last names (not really last names, you understand, but it sure looks like that), so they all ended up with their father's patronym as their last name.
Neil Robinson, who suspects he'd have to go back a number of generations before he found a Robin, much less the Robin.
> On Thu, 1 May 2008, Peter B. Steiger wrote: > > On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:
> >> Icelandic names are > >> patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end > >> of a woman's name with -son.
> > Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries > > Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's > > daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his > > name.
> > Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.
> As I understand Icelandic names, that doesn't happen. She would just be > Helga [herfather]sdottir married to Snorri Heimdallsson.
> I once met a woman who immigrated to the US as a child, and the > immigration officer didn't like that they all had different last names > (not really last names, you understand, but it sure looks like that), so > they all ended up with their father's patronym as their last name.
> Neil Robinson, who suspects he'd have to go back a number of generations > before he found a Robin, much less the Robin.
You mean Robin from the 'Hood?
Sadly, like many with Western Eurpoean roots, the etymology of my surname is equally as dull.
On Thu, 01 May 2008 13:00:07 -0700, Blinky the Wonder Wombat sez:
> Sadly, like many with Western Eurpoean roots, the etymology of my > surname is equally as dull.
How many Wombats could there have been???
My daughter got a kick out of the fact that in her acting class, she (with a last name that means "climber" in German) ended up partnered with someone named Sierra ("mountain range" in Spanish, of course)
-- Peter B. Steiger Cheyenne, WY If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes where you see stars: wypbs.**1 at gmail.com (yes, that's a new address)
"Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address> writes:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez: > > Icelandic names are > > patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end > > of a woman's name with -son.
> Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries > Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's > daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his > name.
> Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.
She wouldn't, is the thing. Icelanders use a first name and patronymic, and keep them all their lives. Women have never changed their patronymic upon marrying. Most Icelanders don't have a surname, and the patronymic does not function as one. When names are alphabetized, for example, they get sorted by given name.
This used to be the practice all over Scandinavia, by the way, but the mainlanders gradually picked up the habit of surnames. Sometimes they simply "froze" the patronymic at one particular generation, which is where all the -son and -sen names come from. More often they adopted the name of the family farm or other home as a surname.
(Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
<wkharrisjr_i...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 1, 2:43 pm, Neil Robinson <kn...@nos.pam.bitstream.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 May 2008, Peter B. Steiger wrote: > > > On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:35:18 -0700, peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org sez:
> > >> Icelandic names are > > >> patronymic, but nobody "translates" them to replace -dottir as the end > > >> of a woman's name with -son.
> > > Well, that would just be silly. If Helga, daughter of Freya, marries > > > Snorri, son of Heimdall, she wouldn't suddenly become Heimdall's > > > daughter. She would be the wife of Heimdall's son and as such take his > > > name.
> > > Um. Wouldn't she? I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.
> > As I understand Icelandic names, that doesn't happen. She would just be > > Helga [herfather]sdottir married to Snorri Heimdallsson.
> > I once met a woman who immigrated to the US as a child, and the > > immigration officer didn't like that they all had different last names > > (not really last names, you understand, but it sure looks like that), so > > they all ended up with their father's patronym as their last name.
> > Neil Robinson, who suspects he'd have to go back a number of generations > > before he found a Robin, much less the Robin.
> You mean Robin from the 'Hood?
> Sadly, like many with Western Eurpoean roots, the etymology of my > surname is equally as dull.- Hide quoted text -
My last name is Estonian, which I guess is Western European, and there's a long and frankly improbable story of its origin.
On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez:
> (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders > have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
I knew the former, not the latter. I used the matronymic deliberately thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the daughter of her mother.
Maybe the naming conventions in THX-1138 *are* more sensible.
-- Peter B. Steiger Cheyenne, WY If you must reply by email, you can reach me by placing zeroes where you see stars: wypbs.**1 at gmail.com (yes, that's a new address)
Peter B. Steiger <see....@for.email.address> wrote:
> My daughter got a kick out of the fact that in her acting class, she > (with a last name that means "climber" in German) ended up partnered with > someone named Sierra ("mountain range" in Spanish, of course)
The late Herb Caen, storied gossip columnist for the San Francisco _Chronicle_, would occasionally run items like that under the rubric "Namephreaks." One of the very few times I was mentioned in his column was for sending in the names of our department assistants in the late '70's: Gabe Strain and Charlie Paine.
Serendipity: the surnames were absolutely appropriate.
"Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address> writes:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez: > > (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders > > have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
> I knew the former, not the latter. I used the matronymic deliberately > thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the > daughter of her mother.
Nope. It might help to remember that this is not a modern invention, but a centuries-old tradition. Of COURSE it's sexist.
The two Icelanders I've met with matronymics have coincidentally both been men. I didn't know either of them well enough to ask why their parents had gone against tradition...
> "Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address> writes:
> > On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez: > > > (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders > > > have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
> > I knew the former, not the latter. I used the matronymic deliberately > > thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the > > daughter of her mother.
> Nope. It might help to remember that this is not a modern invention, > but a centuries-old tradition. Of COURSE it's sexist.
> The two Icelanders I've met with matronymics have coincidentally both > been men. I didn't know either of them well enough to ask why their > parents had gone against tradition...
Matronymics are part of the tradition as well, they are used when there was little or no contact with the father (if the father did not want to participate in the raising of the child, the mother might choose give the baby her name instead) and you can change your last name yourself when you reach 18.
> On May 2, 7:13 am, Cindy Kandolf <ci...@bizet.nethelp.no> wrote:
> > "Peter B. Steiger" <see....@for.email.address> writes:
> > > On Thu, 01 May 2008 22:15:18 +0200, Cindy Kandolf sez: > > > > (Incidentally, Freya is a woman's name. While some modern Icelanders > > > > have a matronymic, so to speak, patronymics are still far more common.)
> > > I knew the former, not the latter. I used the matronymic deliberately > > > thinking that a person would be listed as the son of his father but the > > > daughter of her mother.
> > Nope. It might help to remember that this is not a modern invention, > > but a centuries-old tradition. Of COURSE it's sexist.
> > The two Icelanders I've met with matronymics have coincidentally both > > been men. I didn't know either of them well enough to ask why their > > parents had gone against tradition...
> Matronymics are part of the tradition as well, they are used when > there was little or no contact with the father (if the father did not > want to participate in the raising of the child, the mother might > choose give the baby her name instead) > and you can change your last name yourself when you reach 18.
The original tradition is less sexist than patriarchal, in any case. A community has a pretty good sense of who the mother is because, well, there were usually a few witnesses. But, as the old saying goes, "It's a wise child who knows his father." The name helps. In modern times, this latter situation is not only less shameful but less predictive of poverty.
On May 2, 7:50 am, "peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org" <racss...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The original tradition is less sexist than patriarchal, in any case. A > community has a pretty good sense of who the mother is because, well, > there were usually a few witnesses. But, as the old saying goes, "It's > a wise child who knows his father." The name helps. In modern times, > this latter situation is not only less shameful but less predictive of > poverty.
Don't know about Scandanavia (Iceland is considered a part of Scandanavia, right?), but in America, children of never-married mothers have a very high probability of living in poverty (about six times greater than those of children with married motheers)
<wkharrisjr_i...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On May 2, 7:50 am, "peter...@SPAMnelliebly.org" <racss...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > The original tradition is less sexist than patriarchal, in any case. A > > community has a pretty good sense of who the mother is because, well, > > there were usually a few witnesses. But, as the old saying goes, "It's > > a wise child who knows his father." The name helps. In modern times, > > this latter situation is not only less shameful but less predictive of > > poverty.
> Don't know about Scandanavia (Icelandis considered a part of > Scandanavia, right?), but in America, children of never-married > mothers have a very high probability of living in poverty (about six > times greater than those of children with married motheers)
Iceland is not in Scandinavia (Scandinavia is to the east of the UK, Iceland is to the North-west.) 65% of Icelanders are born out of wedlock but that does not mean that their parents are not going to marry at a later date. Iceland and Scandinavia have developed a welfare system to prevent poverty among single parents among others.
