Mallard Fillmore 30 May 2008
LNER...@juno.com
http://lewbryson.blogspot.com/2008/04/another-great-reason-for-longer-primary.html
"Now that's a good beer. I like that. That's good stuff." Well, what
the *%)#!@ do you EXPECT a campaigning politician to say? Especially
if the beer was (in all probability) free?
If he got oak and/or vanilla out of an ESB (Extra Special Bitter),
then he would need to have his taste buds or head examined. However,
there ARE beers out there that have EXACTLY that kind of profile. One
right off the top of my head is Old Dominion Oak Barrel Stout:
http://www.olddominion.com/ales.shtml
Quite a few other brewpubs have or have had variations on this theme,
including Flossmoor Station south of Chicago, District Chophouse in
D.C., Titletown Brewing in Green Bay, Wisconsin, Goose Island in
Chicago, and others.
Blinky the Wonder Wombat
>
> "Now that's a good beer. I like that. That's good stuff." Well, what
> the *%)#!@ do you EXPECT a campaigning politician to say? Especially
> if the beer was (in all probability) free?
>
> If he got oak and/or vanilla out of an ESB (Extra Special Bitter),
> then he would need to have his taste buds or head examined. However,
> there ARE beers out there that have EXACTLY that kind of profile. One
> right off the top of my head is Old Dominion Oak Barrel Stout:http://www.olddominion.com/ales.shtml
>
> Quite a few other brewpubs have or have had variations on this theme,
> including Flossmoor Station south of Chicago, District Chophouse in
> D.C., Titletown Brewing in Green Bay, Wisconsin, Goose Island in
> Chicago, and others.
Huh, I never had you pegged as an elitist!
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Obligatory beer questions . . .:
Sam Adams . . . really as good as they say it is?
Irish Carbomb . . . ever try it? (I guess the Guiness part counts as
beer)
--
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Katana > Chain Saw > Baseball Bat > Hammer
LNER...@juno.com
*when it comes to beers--damned straight I am. Though I would observe
that anyone who gets paid to write/do/perform/etc. what others do for
the heck of it because they're better at it than most (and, just as
importantly, got others to pay him/her for it) could be classified as
an "elitist," or at the least elite.
> Obligatory beer questions . . .:
>
> Sam Adams . . . really as good as they say it is?
*Depends on who's saying what. Sam Adams is now basically too big to
be considered a "craft" brewery although they're still independent of
the big "NAIL" (North American Industrial Lager) producers. The brand
as a whole gets characterized as the perfect "training-wheel beer," or
a gateway to better/smaller/more esoteric beers, but there's certainly
better than that characterization. They've done some wonderful
"publicity stunt" beers like their Triple Bock of 1994-1997 (20%+,
loved or reviled) and their hideously expensive/exclusive/elitist
Utopias, a 25% alcohol-by-volume example of wretched hype,
overpackaging, and overwork for the admittedly wonderful liqueur-like
results.
>
> Irish Carbomb . . . ever try it? (I guess the Guiness part counts as
> beer)
>
I might be willing/stupid enough to order a "black and tan" in a
thoroughly Irish pub, but I refuse on principle to try/buy a drink
with such a repulsive name. (Ditto every fellow Irish/Celtic/Scottish
festival staffer/volunteer/musician I've ever worked with--and I've
dealt with a lot, and some big names, too.) Even if it were named
something else, I doubt I'd try such a drink more than once.
True story: a while back, we were having a staff meeting for one of
the beer publications for which I write. The bar in question had
40-50 rotating taps, nearly all high-end craft beers, some of them
brewed for them to their own recipes by a local brewery. I went up
for a pitcher during "my turn," and as a lark I decided to order a
pitcher of Guinness and not tell them--the bar had perhaps 4-6 other
"black" beers (stouts, porters, schwarzbiers, the house "chocolate
donut beer"--I kid you not, they actually had a wretched novelty one
with Krispy Kreme chocolate sauce in the brew--etc.) so it could have
been "anything". The other eight at the table were NOT expecting me
to come back with Guinness, and thus ended up critiquing the beer
pretty much as "an insipid, half-hearted attempt at a Guinness knock-
off". The sight of their jaws crashing as I had the owner confirm
that he poured me a pitcher of Guinness was, as the saying goes,
priceless.
racs...@gmail.com
with IV today.
On May 31, 12:06 am, LNER4...@juno.com wrote:
> > Obligatory beer questions . . .:
>
> > Sam Adams . . . really as good as they say it is?
>
> *Depends on who's saying what. Sam Adams is now basically too big to
> be considered a "craft" brewery although they're still independent of
> the big "NAIL" (North American Industrial Lager) producers. The brand
> as a whole gets characterized as the perfect "training-wheel beer," or
> a gateway to better/smaller/more esoteric beers, but there's certainly
> better than that characterization. They've done some wonderful
> "publicity stunt" beers like their Triple Bock of 1994-1997 (20%+,
> loved or reviled) and their hideously expensive/exclusive/elitist
> Utopias, a 25% alcohol-by-volume example of wretched hype,
> overpackaging, and overwork for the admittedly wonderful liqueur-like
> results.
Don't know about their special beers, but the "training wheel" term is
absolutely perfect. Yes, it's better than Coors, better than Bud. But
there are regional beers that are cheaper and certainly as good,
perhaps better -- Yeungling and Saranac come to mind. Up here in
Maine, I've discovered Gritty's, which I resisted because I hate made-
up clever names like "Gritty MacDuff" but the stuff was getting praise
from Corey Pantoon, so I figured whatever fuels him might be worth a
try and it was. None are boutique beers, but Gritty's far outpaces Sam
Adams.
> > Irish Carbomb . . . ever try it? (I guess the Guiness part counts as
> > beer)
>
> I might be willing/stupid enough to order a "black and tan" in a
> thoroughly Irish pub, but I refuse on principle to try/buy a drink
> with such a repulsive name. (Ditto every fellow Irish/Celtic/Scottish
> festival staffer/volunteer/musician I've ever worked with--and I've
> dealt with a lot, and some big names, too.) Even if it were named
> something else, I doubt I'd try such a drink more than once.
Ditto again. Horribly offensive name -- I was in an Irish pub band for
a few years in the 80s and we sang a lot of Republican songs, some of
them pretty hard core, but made a conscious effort to avoid the kinds
of buffoons who would find this amusing.
And the drink sounds disgusting anyway. I've never been a Bailey's
fan, but if you have a hankering for alcohol but the refined tastes of
a 12-year-old, well, there you go. Irish whiskey, is too expensive to
waste like this, however -- use Seagrams 7 or something.
We drank a lot of black-and-tans, and had a lot sent up to the
bandstand while we were playing. It's a very popular drink, but I
learned later that the elite drinking crowd -- the kind who would also
think it interesting to drop shot glasses into their mugs -- actually
layered their black-and-tans. I'd have loved to have seen one of those
sissy things sent up to our whistle player, who was a Limerickman and
very blue collar.
Black-and-tans are a utilitarian as well as proletarian drink --
simply a way to lighten stout so you can drink more of it -- most who
drank them with us would also enjoy a stout but considered that more
of a drink to nurse and ponder. Black-and-tans were good for when you
were going to be singing and shouting and having fun.
Another authentic Irish "mixed drink" is a shandy, which combines
stout and lemonade. This is a hot weather drink that cuts your thirst
better than stout and dilutes the alcoholic content so that you can
slam one or two down after a hot day in the fields (or cutting the
lawn) without passing out. Again, you don't want to use the good
stuff, although you would want to use real lemonade and not that
Countrytime junk.
> (snipping a funny story)
> The sight of their jaws crashing as I had the owner confirm
> that he poured me a pitcher of Guinness was, as the saying goes,
> priceless.
As for Guinness, don't tell my white-haired old mum, but I don't much
like it. I much prefer Aussie stouts, which have a little sweeter
taste. Actually, I prefer a lot of other stouts. Guinness is okay --
it's good -- but there are a lot that are better.
Mike Peterson
http://nellieblogs.blogspot.com
Sherwood Harrington
> Mark it on your calendars, folks. I am wholeheartedly in agreement
> with IV today.
Only about ethanol carriers, I hope.
> As for Guinness, don't tell my white-haired old mum, but I don't much
> like it. I much prefer Aussie stouts, which have a little sweeter
> taste. Actually, I prefer a lot of other stouts. Guinness is okay --
> it's good -- but there are a lot that are better.
If you're referring to Guinness sold in the US, then I'd agree that there
are a few (but not a lot) that are better. But if you're referring to
Guinness drawn in Ireland, then your taste buds must have been damaged in
some horrible accident.
--
Sherwood Harrington
Boulder Creek, California
Dann
news:43c80e71-57f7-4427...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com.
POTY nominee!
--
Regards,
Dann
blogging at http://web.newsguy.com/dainbramage/blog.htm
Freedom works; each and every time it is tried.
LNER...@juno.com
> Huh, I never had you pegged as an elitist!
*Come to think of it...... Couldn't you define anyone who uses
discretion in their shopping (organic, all-natural, kosher, grain-fed,
no high-fructose corn syrup, natural fibers, locally grown, "Made in
USA," union label, etc.) for any reason other than allergies, celiac
disease, lactose intolerance, etc. equally "elitist"?
Ted Goldblatt
>> "Huh, I never had you pegged as an elitist! "
>
> *when it comes to beers--damned straight I am. Though I would observe
> that anyone who gets paid to write/do/perform/etc. what others do for
> the heck of it because they're better at it than most (and, just as
> importantly, got others to pay him/her for it) could be classified as
> an "elitist," or at the least elite.
>
>> Obligatory beer questions . . .:
>>
>> Sam Adams . . . really as good as they say it is?
>
> *Depends on who's saying what. Sam Adams is now basically too big to
> be considered a "craft" brewery although they're still independent of
> the big "NAIL" (North American Industrial Lager) producers. The brand
> as a whole gets characterized as the perfect "training-wheel beer," or
> a gateway to better/smaller/more esoteric beers, but there's certainly
> better than that characterization. They've done some wonderful
> "publicity stunt" beers like their Triple Bock of 1994-1997 (20%+,
> loved or reviled) and their hideously expensive/exclusive/elitist
> Utopias, a 25% alcohol-by-volume example of wretched hype,
> overpackaging, and overwork for the admittedly wonderful liqueur-like
> results.
I always thought their double bock was pretty good, but for some reason
they don't sell it here (S Fla) anymore...
In my beer geek group, I am considered somewhat odd (well, for a variety
of reasons), since I liked the Triple Bock when it first came out in
bottles - everyone else agreed with the soy sauce (or teriyaki or ...)
complaints. (Though even I thought that bottle version didn't come
close to the casked version I had at a fest at Stoudt's in 93 or 94,
before it was released in bottles - I think it had 2 years (in wood?)
before we had it, and that made a big difference.) Anyway, we recently
had a '94 (that I kept since then - pretty good for living in a place
where we don't have cellars...), and everyone liked it. Only took 14
years of age to get ready? I actually tried to get a bottle of the new
Utopia - split 6 ways, so only about $25 each, for a 4oz pour - I'm
coping with the fact that we missed out :-)...
Unfortunately, the Boston Lager doesn't do anything for me, and that is
as close to good beer(tm) as a lot of places around here get...
ted
Ted Goldblatt
I have a hard time saying Yeungling or Saranac are better than Boston
Brewing's products - better than Budmilloors, yes, but not great.
Interestingly, F.X. Matt (brewers of Saranac) was at one time the major
contract brewer of Sam Adams beers...
I don't remember having had Gritty's, but I've heard promising things
about them. However, I always liked Geary's, especially the pale ale
(though I haven't had it for at least 10 years - not sure if it's
changed but I thought they always used English hops - certainly don't
_remember_ Cascades in the pale ale) and some of the Shipyard products.
Allagash is also good if I'm in a Belgian mood.
You can't really make blanket statements like Gritty's far outpaces Sam
Adams - generally the most you can say is that most of the beers from
brewery A are better than most of the beers from brewery B, especially
for breweries with a lot of products. I happen to be a _major_ fan of
Dogfish Head, but they make several beers that I consider close to
undrinkable, while I don't think I ever had a SA beer that was
undrinkable (though I've never tried the cranberry lambic :-)), even if
they were largely unremarkable. This does _not_ make SA better than DH.
I will certainly agree that most of the SA products are unexciting,
but a few of them are quite good, and a couple are really out there on
the edge...
ted
Ted Goldblatt
Drawn or brewed? Right now, the draught Guinness we get in the US still
comes from St. James Gate, though the Extra is from Canada. As far as I
know, all the draught (even for Ireland) is pasteurized and to the same
recipe, so aside from damage due to age or shipping, the US and Irish
draught should be the same. This isn't true of some of the other
versions. Of course, being in Dublin to have it drawn probably helps
the flavor...
Interestingly (or depressingly for those who are fans of tradition), I
was told a while ago by a coworker located in Dublin that Guinness
(well, Diageo) was looking to sell the St. James Gate brewery and
relocate in a less pricey area outside the city, expecting to sell the
center city property for a big pile. (I thought that the land was
rented (for 9000 years, but still) rather than owned by Guinness, but
perhaps the buyers wouldn't know that...) In any case, it now appears
that this is move won't take place.
ted
LNER...@juno.com
> Drawn or brewed? Right now, the draught Guinness we get in the US still
> comes from St. James Gate, though the Extra is from Canada. As far as I
> know, all the draught (even for Ireland) is pasteurized and to the same
> recipe, so aside from damage due to age or shipping, the US and Irish
> draught should be the same.
*Nope. Nope, nope, nope.
Go to your "local", go down into the cellar (or cooler), and check the
actual Guinness kegs. Unless your pub is actually moving heaven and
earth to import real Irish-made kegs, they'll be very cleverly labeled
to give the *impression* they're from Ireland--"Brewed *for* Guinness,
St. James Gate, Dublin," etc.--without actually saying outright "Made
in Ireland". The odds are 99.5% that those kegs are actually being
filled by a contract brewery in the USA (possibly owned by Guinness/
Diageo in some secretive fashion--it's not like they want to promote
that their highly image-conscious brand that's supposed to be "Irish"
is being made in Connecticut or California, any more than you would
want to promote "German" Porsches or "British" Rolls-Royces made in
India or Malaysia.)
Sam Adams did the same thing for years; all of their beers except for
some specialties were done at certain contract houses such as the F.X.
Matt brewery in Utica, NY (which just had a massive fire in their
canning/bottling plant on Thursday/Friday). Sam Adams just bought a
former Stroh's plant in the Lehigh Valley of Pa. so they can finally
crank out at least a lot of their own production.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with contract brewing; it reduces
capital outlay, allows a wider distribution of better stuff, and can
even be considered the environmentally-conscious thing to do. It's
just that in the case of Guinness, which has for decades wrapped its
entire corporate and marketing image around more hackneyed appeals to
Irish nationalistic "pride" and cliches worse than an Irish Spring
commercial, it completely clashes with everything the marketing
department does. As a matter of fact, the major reason Guinness
*didn't* pull up and leave St. James Gate probably because the "St.
James Gate" address is too critical to its international (read: Irish-
American tourist) marketing needs than the value of the real estate.
By comparison, Youngs of London finally did pull out of its 700-year-
old downtown London address, in spite of all the rich history and
efforts by both preservationists and beer enthusiasts to keep them
there. I happened to speak directly (over pints of Old Nick) to the
president of the company when he was in Washington DC for a beer
event, and he said "It's gotten to the point where the value of the
property exceeds the value of the company, and history aside, I have a
fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders."
Cryptoengineer
> > Drawn or brewed? Right now, the draught Guinness we get in the US still
> > comes from St. James Gate, though the Extra is from Canada. As far as I
> > know, all the draught (even for Ireland) is pasteurized and to the same
> > recipe, so aside from damage due to age or shipping, the US and Irish
> > draught should be the same.
>
> *Nope. Nope, nope, nope.
> Go to your "local", go down into the cellar (or cooler), and check the
> actual Guinness kegs. Unless your pub is actually moving heaven and
> earth to import real Irish-made kegs, they'll be very cleverly labeled
> to give the *impression* they're from Ireland--"Brewed *for* Guinness,
> St. James Gate, Dublin," etc.--without actually saying outright "Made
> in Ireland". The odds are 99.5% that those kegs are actually being
> filled by a contract brewery in the USA (possibly owned by Guinness/
> Diageo in some secretive fashion--it's not like they want to promote
> that their highly image-conscious brand that's supposed to be "Irish"
> is being made in Connecticut or California, any more than you would
> want to promote "German" Porsches or "British" Rolls-Royces made in
> India or Malaysia.)
That explains a lot. I've never liked the Guinness I've gotten
in the States as much as the stuff I used to get in London,
though even that wasn't brewed in Ireland. One of the more
memorable field trips of my university days (I majored in
Biochemistry) was a tour of the Guinness brewery on the
outside of town: an hour's tour, followed by an hour of
'free time' in the bar.
> By comparison, Youngs of London finally did pull out of its 700-year-
> old downtown London address, in spite of all the rich history and
> efforts by both preservationists and beer enthusiasts to keep them
> there. I happened to speak directly (over pints of Old Nick) to the
> president of the company when he was in Washington DC for a beer
> event, and he said "It's gotten to the point where the value of the
> property exceeds the value of the company, and history aside, I have a
> fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders."
I was really dissapointed by that when I heard about it - I very much
like their beer when I was at university. That was in the late 70's,
just as CAMRA was getting traction. I used to frequent The Sun
and The Lamb (both on Lamb's Conduit Street, named after the
latter pub).
pt