PAD: Fabian N. comments on BID
John Holbrook (PAD)
was recently posted in the X-MEN folder on AOL. His comments are in
reference to Peter David's latest BID article, which is highly critical
of the lasted "Alter-X" project planned for the X-Books. Because it
deals with the X-Books, it is probobly more at home in the X-Men
newsgroup, but because PAD frequents this newsgroup I am posting it here,
hoping he will follow up. See my comments below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subj: Re:The big topic of debate
Date: 94-10-04 22:11:40 EDT
From: FabNic
SYNSIDER:
<<Peter David provides an excellent analysis of the
X-books gimmick in Comics Buyer's Guide #1091;
given the gimmick's resemblance to DC's "Zero Hour,"
he's dubbed it "Xerox Hour.">>
"Excellent analysis" -- ? Gee, never let Peter's lack of knowledge regarding
a subject ever come between his brain and his keyboard. How can someone
analyze a storyline which they know so little about?
Having been at the lunches and meetings with Scott and Bob, Synsider, I can
only assure you of one thing -- Peter David was NOT there. But HE knows ALL
about the story and why we're doing it.
His CBG column on the Alter-X story was derived solely from two sources
-- a
poorly executed initial Marvel press release and the speculation and outright
false information being whispered about (see AOL for an example of what I
mean). Two pretty reliable sources to base an entire column on, huh? I know
my phone never rang with Peter asking any questions to verify the truth or
falsehoods about his statements.
But that's the point -- Peter writes a column of OPINION which his readers
always seem to accept as FACT.
His use of the term Xerox Hour is both trite and completely inaccurate to the
story. But how would he really know that since he's writing a full column on
a storyline without asking any of the people responsible for the creation of
that story (which is still three months away from coming out) what the story
might be about?
As long as he comes out sounding oh so righteaous. But then again, that's
what Peter's best at now days anyway.
He has his legion of blind worshippers, of which you, Synsider may be one (or
may not). Party on, lemmings.
GLIVER:
<<Marvel is still letting this thing become hyped through inaccurate gossip
and all that is serving to do is to make this story line become nothing more
than a gimmick that will keep all in the critics in fodder until it actually
comes out.>>
Now there's a great does of logic for you. Marvel is "letting" the hype
to be
done by the gossipers.
Besides some admittedly poorly executed wording on the INITIAL press release
(with more accurate ones to come as the information becomes better defined),
MARVEL is now responsible for what EVERYONE ELSE is gossiping about?
It's MARVEL's fault and those of the writers that all of YOU are talking
about this far out of proportion to what it really requires or deserves?
Gee, I guess Tom DeFalco WAS fired at least four times in the last two years
because all of YOU said so time and again.
Why bother even printing the stupid comics anymore? People like Gliver
already KNOW whether it's good or bad because they HEARD it from somone else.
That sure would make my job a lot easier. You folks decide what it's
going to
be three months before it comes out, decide whether you liked it or not
before you've even read it, and I'll cash the check.
Cool.
Anyone else in favor of that please just go ahead and plot out the next six
issues of AMAZING X-MEN and GAMBIT & the X-TERNALS and I'll sit back and play
"raspberry-stomach" with my baby.
It's late, I'm tired, and some of you (just a petulant, vocal minority) are
taking a lot of the fun out of this industry for a whole lot of people.
Hope those vindictive fires keep you warm at night.
-- fn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fabian makes some fairly insulting comments aimed at Peter which
I think are undeserved. As I recall, Peter made no personal
attacks aimed squarely at Fabian. However, Fabian does have a point if
indeed PAD didn't even bother to call the X-Offices to get the full scoop
on what's happening in January. Sure its an opinion column, but an
ill-formed opinion is irresponsible. However, I must say that given
Peter's track record, it is highly unlikely (to me at least) that he
would write a BID article like this without doing some research..Going
off half-cocked isn't Peter's style.
I have to agree with PAD on this one; this "Alter-X" thing isn't
something the fans asked for or even want. Even if the premise is
interesting, and the whole thing ends up well written, one has to ask the
question, "why?" I think Peter's column answers that question nicely.
Comments PAD?
--
*John B. Holbrook, II holb...@luna.cas.usf.edu*
FINSHISHED MY COURSEWORK FOR MY MASTERS DEGREE! YEA!!!
"My! Marlo wasn't exagerating I see..green skin..AMAZING!"
"No. Spider-Man is amazing. I'm incredible." - Bruce Banner.
Todd VerBeek, GWM
> I have to agree with PAD on this one; this "Alter-X" thing isn't
>something the fans asked for or even want. Even if the premise is
>interesting, and the whole thing ends up well written, one has to ask the
>question, "why?" I think Peter's column answers that question nicely.
I think that if the premise is interestng and it ends up well-written,
that should =answer= the question "why?" It's certainly a more
defensible reason for doing a story than "because you demanded it!"
As much as fans like to think of themselves as tremendously creative
(and even more so than the pros), the creative spark is =supposed= to
come from... the creator.
("Alter-X" sounds like the spawn of Marketing and Editorial, only
moderately "interesting", and I don't plan on it be "well-written".
But I'm talking in theory.)
Cheers, Todd
the guy who came up with the idea for Sire Records' neato CD "Just Say Roe!"
Kevin Maroney
John Holbrook (PAD) <holb...@luna.cas.usf.edu> wrote:
[Quoting Fabian Nicieza, who has his shorts in an uproar over Peter
David's criticism of Xerox Hour:]
>His CBG column on the Alter-X story was derived solely from two sources
>-- a
>poorly executed initial Marvel press release and the speculation and outright
>false information being whispered about (see AOL for an example of what I
>mean). Two pretty reliable sources to base an entire column on, huh?
One cannot trust gossip, it is true. I doubt Peter David does. God knows
I would never write a column based purely on r.a.c.* discussions of
upcoming X-events.
However, it seems rather stupid and insulting to blame a man for reacting
to a press release as if it might have some resemblance to the material
the press release discusses.
Also, a fair amount of the _But I Digress_ is fact-proof, which is to
say, regardless of the particulars of the content of the Xerox Hour
material, the conclusions remain valid. Here I include most particularly
the discussion of how difficult it will be for retailers to order these
items accurately.
Especially if they're getting false information from Marvel's press
releases.
--
Kevin J. Maroney|k...@panix.com|Proud to be a Maroney|Proud to be a Yonker
Never send money to someone who has the language skills of a rutabaga.
Henry R. Broaddus
will respond to Fabian's accusations in his own good time, but I can't
help noticing several points which weaken Fabian's argument IMHO.
Furthermore, one of Fabian's attacks is directed at fans like myself,
and I do take personal offense at the notion that speculation about
storylines takes the "fun out of this industry for a whole lot of
people."
In article <36u7d2$d...@mother.usf.edu>
holb...@luna.ec.usf.edu. (John Holbrook (PAD)) writes:
FABIAN N. WRITES:
>"Excellent analysis" -- ? Gee, never let Peter's lack of knowledge regarding
>a subject ever come between his brain and his keyboard. How can someone
>analyze a storyline which they know so little about? Having been at the >lunches and meetings with Scott and Bob, Synsider, I can only assure you of >one thing -- Peter David was NOT there. But HE knows ALL about the story and >why we're doing it. s
CBG column on the Alter-X story was derived solely >from two sources --
a poorly executed initial Marvel press release and the >speculation and
outright false information being whispered about (see AOL >for an
example of what I mean). Two pretty reliable sources to base an >entire
column on, huh? I know my phone never rang with Peter asking any
>questions to verify the truth or falsehoods about his statements.
PAD never addressed anything specific about the story other than those
elements which were common knowledge via Marvel's press release. How
can Fabian take PAD to task for not verifying facts from a press
release? Marvel Comics, publisher of the Alter-X stories and
distributor of the press release, should certainly be considered a
reliable source. The fact that Marvel issued an inaccurate press
release is not PAD's fault.
As to PAD's alleged second source, I can't find any part of the BID
article in question which relies on anyone's speculation but PAD's own.
>But that's the point -- Peter writes a column of OPINION which his readers >always seem to accept as FACT. His use of the term Xerox Hour is both trite >and completely inaccurate to the story. But how would he really know that >since he's writing a
full column on a storyline without asking any of the >people
responsible for the creation of that story (which is still three
>months away from coming out) what the story might be about? As long as he >comes out sounding oh so righteaous. But then again, that's what Peter's >best at now days anyway. He has his legion of blind worshippers, of which >you, Synsider may be one
(or may not). Party on, lemmings.
Fabian fails to elaborate upon his assertion that "Xerox Hour" is an
improper label for the Alter-X storyline. PAD cites several
fundamental story elements common to Zero Hour and Alter-X (see the
parenthetical remarks in the first sentence of his column). I think
these common elements are more than enough basis for the terminology
PAD employs. Fabian does not demonstrate anything here to the
contrary.
GLIVER:
>>Marvel is still letting this thing become hyped through inaccurate gossip
>>and all that is serving to do is to make this story line become nothing >>more than a gimmick that will keep all in the critics in fodder until it >>actually comes out.
>Now there's a great does of logic for you. Marvel is "letting" the hype
>to be done by the gossipers.
>Besides some admittedly poorly executed wording on the INITIAL press release
>(with more accurate ones to come as the information becomes better defined),
>MARVEL is now responsible for what EVERYONE ELSE is gossiping about? It's >MARVEL's fault and those of the writers that all of YOU are talking
>about this far out of proportion to what it really requires or deserves? >Gee, I guess Tom DeFalco WAS fired at least four times in the last two years >because all of YOU said so time and again.
>Why bother even printing the stupid comics anymore? People like Gliver
>already KNOW whether it's good or bad because they HEARD it from somone >else.
>That sure would make my job a lot easier. You folks decide what it's
>going to be three months before it comes out, decide whether you liked it or >not before you've even read it, and I'll cash the check. Cool.
>Anyone else in favor of that please just go ahead and plot out the next six
>issues of AMAZING X-MEN and GAMBIT & the X-TERNALS and I'll sit back and >play "raspberry-stomach" with my baby.
>It's late, I'm tired, and some of you (just a petulant, vocal minority) are
>taking a lot of the fun out of this industry for a whole lot of people.
>Hope those vindictive fires keep you warm at night.
I will be the first to admit that it's unfair to say that any story is
really terrible before one reads it. Please note that PAD does not do
this in his column. I do not think it's unfair to use the information
one has as the basis for a discussion of possibilities which may or may
not be consequences of the story. Of course, one must restrict his or
her judgements to the possibilities until the story is read. In other
words, it's completely fair to say, "Based on the information I have,
it looks like this might happen. If this happens, I think it will be
bad/good because..."
Speculation only serves to heighten the fun of the comic book industry.
How many of us get a kick out of trying to guess who Sandman's lover
is or what exactly the "savage personality" part of the upcoming Hulk
storyline will entail? I think many of us derive a great deal of
pleasure from this sort of speculation, because we continue to do it.
Admittedly, speculation should not replace the stories themselves, and
Fabian is correct to point this out. I can't comment specifically
about the "outright false information being whispered about" which
Fabian refers to, because I don't have AOL, and I find no trace of it
in BID. If it was the type of speculation I am talking about, I can't
understand why he has any problem with it.
"Have a yummy, sunny day." - Pinky (and The Brain)
Henry.R....@Dartmouth.edu
"Imagination was given to us to compensate for what we are not; a sense
of humor to console us for what we are." - Sir Francis Bacon
SCAVENGER PRIME
AS for better examples of Fabian's work, as opposed to the mush he does now,
I thouht his Psi-Forse run was rather good, even if he did compleatly miss
the whole point of what Psi-Hawk actualy was.
--SCAVENGER
--
"You TITANS fans do know what fun is, don't you? |kog...@rtt.colorado.edu
You guys are about the most tightly-wrapped bunch |Scavenger-Remy-Nikodemus
this side of a LEGION OUTPOST."--Brian Augustyn_____|Live Wire,Amnar@LegionMush
"Stay Sane Inside Insanity"--R.O'Brien |Revivalist and Rebel Yell of the LNH
Synsidar
Holbrook (PAD)) writes:
or quotes, actually, from a post by Fabian Nicieza on AOL dealing with
Peter David's "But I Digress" column in #1091:
"Synsider, I can only assure you of one thing -- Peter David was NOT
there. But HE knows ALL
about the story and why we're doing it. His CBG column on the Alter-X
story was derived solely from two sources -- a poorly executed initial
Marvel press release and the speculation and outright false information
being whispered about (see AOL for an example of what I
mean). "
Fabian tends to misspell my AOL ID: it's actually "Synsidar." And PAD's
article is still
excellent.
Steven R. Stahl, aka Sirius/S*R**S
Marc Young - MECE/W94
Huh, maybe to Fabian it takes some investigation and research to
map out his intentions and stories, but I think he is getting
himself mixed up as Neil Gaiman.
Fabian's plots have more holes in them than Swiss cheese, as
for the predictability of his work, well, predicting tomorrow's
date is easier.
Yes these are insults to Fabian, but at least they are pertinent
to questioning his intentions for Xerox Hour (HA HA HA- that's
classic)!
Carlo
Marc Young - MECE/W94
he wasn't writing SO MANY Marvel books. I mean, I have yet
to find a piece of his work that goes beyond: build-up,
then fight (most of his writing seems geared for this),
then wind down, plot cycle.
Carlo
Peter David
Fabian is quite correct that I did not contact the X-offices before
forming an opinion on, and speculating about, Xerox Hour. The reason
I did not is simple: The press release said, "For further information,
contact Gary Guzzo," Marvel's PR liason.
Which I did. And Gary made the chagrined admission that there was
nothing really to add. That there was a total lockdown on information
from the X-office, and Gary was not allowed to give any more details
(indeed, I got the impression he didn't even know any details.)
Ever since the premature info leak about the Spider-clone, Marvel
editors are more vigilent than ever, and more serious about keeping
major developments under wraps.
After speaking to Gary, I did indeed consider calling Fabe (or Scott,
for that matter) and trying to pump them for info. But I was loathe
to do that because, even if I quoted them as a blind source, it meant
that as soon as I ran it, the X-office would likely go ballistic and
search out whoever it was who spoke to me and give them a very hard
time. I respect my friendship for Fabe and Scott, and the difficulty
of their situation, and therefore chose not to try and exploit that
friendship or put them into a difficult position.
So the column was based on all available information. And if Fabe
wants me to wait to write columns until Marvel chooses to give me
all the info they desire, on their schedule, so that I can form
an opinion more to their liking, well...that doesn't seem a particularly
reasonable expectation. Nor would I automatically accept Marvel's
position as gospel anyway: For instance, I'm sure the business side
would claim that the two-format price thing is a legit experiment.
I don't think it is. I doubt Fabe would expect me to roundfile
my opinion on the subject because it doesn't jibe with Marvel's.
Nor would that have occurred with speculation and opinion on
Xerox Hour either.
Plus, please note that only a handful of grafs dealt with speculation
as to reasons or content. The rest was about the track record of
crossovers, and the ordering difficulties retailers face.
As for Fabe's overall insulting tone...I still consider him a friend,
and will not return comments in kind.
(By the way, I'm posting this through Compuserv...so don't be surprised
if this doesn't carry my usual net address. It's still me.)
PAD
Randy Jay Yarger
Lather, rinse, repeat. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Randy Jay Yarger | Department of Physics, Michigan State University
ra...@hs1.hst.msu.edu | NeXT, MIME, and money welcome in my mailbox!
"It's Fabain N. as . . . Shampoo Man!"
gir...@netcom.com
>CBG column on the Alter-X story was derived solely >from two sources --
>a poorly executed initial Marvel press release and the >speculation and
[Much other "Mommy! Mommy! He's Making Fun of Me!" by Fabian N. deleted]
;-)
I just can't believe that PAD fell for that old "believe the press release and
the solicitations gag!" Why, you'd think he just fell off the turnip truck. Of
course, _anyone else_ would have just *assumed* Marvel screwed it up and would
have called the always spot-on Mr. N for the inside skinny. As a matter of fact,
I think that's New York Times editorial policy: never trust the company - always
call the workers first. Like this:
APPLE ANNOUNCES MERGER WITH MOTOROLA - Special to the New York Times
Apple Computing annouced its acquisition by Motorola today, ending days of
speculation on the market. Knowing this could very well be _completely wrong_,
we called Mr. Fabian N., the lawyer who wrote the agreement.
"It's *not* a merger! It's *NOT*!" Mr. N said. After stomping his feet several
times, Mr. N then insisted that the planned corporate coupling was more of a
"marriage," and that marriage is "entirely different from a merger or
acquisition."
For shame, Mr. David. You'd better apologise - Fabian might tell his mom what
you said, and _then_ you'd be in trouble...
G3______________________________________________________________________________
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if
there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than
that of blind-folded fear. --Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
Vorpal Bunny(TM)
[wisdom chopped]
: (By the way, I'm posting this through Compuserv...so don't be surprised
: if this doesn't carry my usual net address. It's still me.)
: PAD
Ahhhh! Stop confusing our fragile minds!
--
\--------------------------------------------------------------/\\ \\
|(C) This Post/Letter is Copyrighted 1994. Cheese-Heads Unite!!| \\-\\
|-Daily Orange Staff Writer-&*Keeper of the Forbush Man Flame* | ( X-X)SPOON!
/--------------------------------------------------------------\ {_^_} _/
Francis A Uy
John Holbrook (PAD) <holb...@luna.cas.usf.edu> wrote:
>From: FabNic
>His CBG column on the Alter-X story was derived solely from two sources: a
>poorly executed initial Marvel press release and the speculation and outright
>false information being whispered about (see AOL for an example of what I
The press release is Marvel's own damn fault, but it's true that
PAD could have just gone down the hall and asked for details.
And many people do assume that BID checks its facts. So it's
not *entirely* Marvel's fault.
>GLIVER:
><<Marvel is still letting this thing become hyped through inaccurate gossip
>MARVEL is now responsible for what EVERYONE ELSE is gossiping about?
This statement is dead on. Marvel is NOT responsible for ALL evil
in the world, just part of it.
-F
.
Francis A Uy
>I thouht his Psi-Forse run was rather good, even if he did compleatly miss
>the whole point of what Psi-Hawk actualy was.
An imitation of the Phoenix form of the mothership on
Battle of the Planets, right?
Trans-Mute!
-F
.
Mitchell Maltenfort
Peter David <72550...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>
>(By the way, I'm posting this through Compuserv...so don't be surprised
>if this doesn't carry my usual net address. It's still me.)
>
>PAD
You've been writing Hulk too long...you're starting to develop
multiple IDs of your own...
--
Mitchell Gil Maltenfort Northwestern University Chicago, Illinois
The race is on...to sprint towards my Ph.D without leaving behind my sense of
humour.
Kevin Maroney
>The press release is Marvel's own damn fault, but it's true that
> PAD could have just gone down the hall and asked for details.
> And many people do assume that BID checks its facts. So it's
> not *entirely* Marvel's fault.
Down the hall? Peter David is not a Marvel employee, but a freelancer. He
doesn't work at the Marvel offices.
Kevin Maroney
SCAVENGER PRIME <kog...@benji.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>AS for better examples of Fabian's work, as opposed to the mush he does now,
>the whole point of what Psi-Hawk actualy was.
He was that guy that PSI-force summoned by placing their hands on Mother
Box and incanting, "TAURU", right?
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: In article <370o4s$5r1$1...@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>,
: Peter David <72550...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
: >
: >(By the way, I'm posting this through Compuserv...so don't be surprised
: >if this doesn't carry my usual net address. It's still me.)
: You've been writing Hulk too long...you're starting to develop
: multiple IDs of your own...
You think THAT's bad? He's on GEnie and Prodigy too!
- Elayne
Christopher Vitek
>
>>I thouht his Psi-Forse run was rather good, even if he did compleatly miss
>>the whole point of what Psi-Hawk actualy was.
>
Chris
--
________ _ _ __ _ __ __
/ ____/ /_ _____(_)_____ / | / /(_)/ /_ __ / /__
/ / / __ \/ ___/ // ___/ | | / // // __/ _ \/ //_/
/ /___/ / / / / / /(__ ) | |/ // // /_/ __/ ,<
\____/_/ /_/_/ /_//____/ |___//_/ \__/\___/_/|_/
Jason Fliegel
At least he includes "build-up" and "wind down" as parts of that cycle.
So many writers today employ the follwoing cycle:
fight
fight
fight
fight
fight
It does get a little old after ... oh, say 5 pages or so.
--
Jason Fliegel | jb...@darwin.clas.virginia.edu | (804) 979-0339
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"This ain't the way to spell my name!"
Yogi Berra, on receiving a check saying "Pay to Bearer"
cm...@aber.ac.uk
>
>An imitation of the Phoenix form of the mothership on
> Battle of the Planets, right?
>
I've never read psi-force but there are some amazing similarities between
Battle of the planets and the original x-men.
Leader is a repressed orphan type whose long lost father turns up as a space
pirate.
Theres a handsome jock type who competes with the leader for the only girl,
who i think had red hair but i haven't seen it since i was 7.
Theres a fat guy who acts as pilot, ok he's not as intelligent as the beast.
Theres an annoying dorky younger member.
Plus the pheonix of course.
I realise a lot of these are standard super group cliches but it holds together
quite well.
owen oj...@aber.ac.uk
Peter_...@cup.portal.com
free to do so (since I do not have access to that service.)
Plus, add this footnote, if you desire:
It's ironic. Nearly three years ago, when I first wrote a column about
Image...Image reps insultingly complained that I knew nothing, while
Marvel personnel (don't ask me who) congratulated me on a great column.
So here we are, I write about "Xerox Hour," Marvel reps insultingly
complain that I know nothing, while Image personnel (don't ask me who)
congratulated me on a great column.
There's a lesson buried in there somewhere, I guess.
PAD
Vorpal Bunny(TM)
: It's ironic. Nearly three years ago, when I first wrote a column about
: Image...Image reps insultingly complained that I knew nothing, while
: Marvel personnel (don't ask me who) congratulated me on a great column.
: So here we are, I write about "Xerox Hour," Marvel reps insultingly
: complain that I know nothing, while Image personnel (don't ask me who)
: congratulated me on a great column.
: There's a lesson buried in there somewhere, I guess.
Maybe Valentino will want you to write an issue of Shadowhawk next..
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: It's ironic. Nearly three years ago, when I first wrote a column about
: Image...Image reps insultingly complained that I knew nothing, while
: Marvel personnel (don't ask me who) congratulated me on a great column.
: So here we are, I write about "Xerox Hour," Marvel reps insultingly
: complain that I know nothing, while Image personnel (don't ask me who)
: congratulated me on a great column.
: There's a lesson buried in there somewhere, I guess.
I think it's called "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Or "you
can't win for losing." Or something like that.
- Elayne
Patman
Or "You can't please all the people all the time."
--
Patman - All opinions are mine, not Ma Tech's.
"I checked over the ComicFest Debate rules, and I can't find anywhere
that it says, 'Loser gets to debate John Byrne." -- John Byrne's
response when asked by Dragon Con to consider debating McFarlane this year.
Randy Jay Yarger
> Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Peter_...@cup.portal.com wrote:
>
> >: There's a lesson buried in there somewhere, I guess.
>
> >I think it's called "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Or "you
> >can't win for losing." Or something like that.
>
> Or "You can't please all the people all the time."
Or "Rob Liefeld is the bestest."
Randy Jay Yarger | Department of Physics, Michigan State University
ra...@hs1.hst.msu.edu | NeXT, MIME, and money welcome in my mailbox!
"Or maybe not. :)"
Tom Hart
: By the way, if anyone wishes to repost my reply to Fabian on AOL, feel
: PAD
"Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all the people can't be right all of the time"
---B Dylan
Well, that seems to hold with the big M and Image now doesn't it? However,
does it mean that PAD will someday miss the mark with his column? Eh, too
much to think about after two finals.
Tom--stressed but FINISHED
Henry R. Broaddus
pretty ridiculous. Usually when Marvel rips you off they at least veil
their mercantilism with an enhanced cover to "justify" the cost.
"Have a yummy, sunny day!" - Pinky (and The Brain)
Abhiji...@transarc.com
Kavon...@dartmouth.edu (Henry R. Broaddus) writes:
> Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?! That's
> pretty ridiculous. Usually when Marvel rips you off they at least veil
> their mercantilism with an enhanced cover to "justify" the cost.
I'll admit that there is no real reason Marvel should charge more, but
I'm more than happy to pay the additional money for Alan Davis art.
Abhijit
David A. Tumarkin
> Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?! That's
> pretty ridiculous. Usually when Marvel rips you off they at least veil
> their mercantilism with an enhanced cover to "justify" the cost.
It *is* justified.
Alan Davis both writes *and* draws CLANDESTINE.
What more justification do you need?
- Sasha
Patman
>Kavon...@dartmouth.edu (Henry R. Broaddus) writes:
>> Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?! That's
>> pretty ridiculous. Usually when Marvel rips you off they at least veil
>> their mercantilism with an enhanced cover to "justify" the cost.
>It *is* justified.
>Alan Davis both writes *and* draws CLANDESTINE.
What was the price of those Excalibur issues that Davis pulled
double duty on? Certainly not $2.50/issue.
>What more justification do you need?
Lots more.
Holy Moley!
>Kavon...@dartmouth.edu (Henry R. Broaddus) writes:
>> Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?!
>
>I'm more than happy to pay the additional money for Alan Davis art.
Well, the whole rationale behind upping the X-books
and other books to $1.95 is because they're now "deluxe"
books of higher quality -- and they come with a higher
price tag. ClanDestine is definitely higher quality
than any of the $1.95 Marvel books out now, so it's
priced accordingly... =)
--m.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
As long as it's hot and wet and goes down the right way it's fine with me.
-- The Duchess of York, Fergie, on tea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please direct hate mail, love letters, or e-mail to: milk...@ufcc.ufl.edu
Rich Johnston
Apparently Paul Neary told them it would be $1.95.
Alan was very upset with the colouring job on issue 1 but said issue
2 was closer to the mark. Me I prefer the absorbency of newsprint,
all this glossy stuff just gives us flat colours. For Marvel, for
Image, the colours just sit there. A Spawn 1 looks a lot better than
a Spawn 25... (especially with Capello "assisting!))
.................................
Rich Johnston,r.j.jo...@ncl.ac.uk
Dirtbag #1 has now shipped.
Dirtbag #2 has now shipped.
Dirtbag #3 ships next month.
Dirtbag #4 can now be ordered under Twist and Shout Comics.
For Dirtbag back issues contact mrm...@netcom.com
Henry R. Broaddus
sa...@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (David A. Tumarkin) writes:
I wrote:
> > Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?! That's
> > pretty ridiculous. Usually when Marvel rips you off they at least veil
> > their mercantilism with an enhanced cover to "justify" the cost.
Sasha wrote:
>It *is* justified. Alan Davis both writes *and* draws CLANDESTINE. What >more justification do you need?
I don't think so. It's "justified" to charge enough to cover expenses
and turn a tidy profit. For this reason, small press books are
"justified" in charging $2.50 per issue (ie Bone). For a lengthy
discourse on which costs are justified and which are not, see the whole
"Fabian talks about prices" thread. In a nutshell, books with large
print runs and popular creators shouldn't have to charge as much to
make as much. Of course, if fans are willing to pay $2.50 for Clan
Destine, why shouldn't Marvel charge $2.50?
Until buyers demonstrate through their purchasing habits that they will
not pay absurd prices, expect to see costs escalate again. If we
continue to buy Clan Destine at $2.50 a pop, expect the deluxe ($1.95)
versions of Marvel books to be replaced with a prestige version priced
at $2.50. Somebody at Marvel Comics is making Clan Destine a guinea
pig.
BTW - On a totally unrelated note, if anyone is wondering why anything
they quote from my posts comes up as "Kavon...@Dartmouth.edu (Henry
R. Broaddus)," it's because my Powerbook is sick and I am forced to use
my roomate's account. My name really is Henry R. Broaddus, not to be
confused with nicknames such as Mystic Mongoose and Vorpal Bunny. =)
Paul O'Brien
>It *is* justified.
>Alan Davis both writes *and* draws CLANDESTINE.
>What more justification do you need?
Alan Davis would still be writing and drawing it if it had a sensible
price. Marvel are rapidly reaching the point where they're pricing
themselves out of the market as far as I'm concerned.
Paul O'Brien
pr...@festival.ed.ac.uk, elf...@srv0.law.ed.ac.uk
A vision of a party with a vision of a vision.
Andrea Spencer
>Abhijit
hm....Do you think that they figured that Davis fans would be so
overjoyed that they could put any price on it??
Oh well. When it comes right down to it, I'd rather pay $2.50 for Alan
Davis story and art than $2.50 for WildC.A.T.S...even if it was being
written by Claremont and pencilled by Jim Lee, or even $1.95 for any
X-Titles.
Andrea (who is seriously considering dropping all of her Marvel titles
*but* Clandestine... =))
--
Andrea L. Spencer / mua...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu / "Shadowcat" on #comics / Giver
of kugs. / CN4-1-000-0002 / "You want _real_?? How real's this knife?" --
Jamie Bradock, Excalibur #56 / "I LOVE ALAN DAVIS!!!" --Shadowcat, anytime
on #comics / And yes...I'm consorting with the president of my fan club!! =)
jdmar...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
> Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?! That's
> pretty ridiculous. Usually when Marvel rips you off they at least veil
> their mercantilism with an enhanced cover to "justify" the cost.
>
> "Have a yummy, sunny day!" - Pinky (and The Brain)
>
>
AWW CRAP!!!!!
I have my comics being picked up for me and paid for (I pay later...)
Is THAT how much it cost me? (I get them sent to me I'm in Ohio, comics are in
N.Y.C. ...) I hope you're right and they DON'T all cost that much...
-Cheese (ick.)
john corbitt
>Abhiji...@transarc.com writes:
>>Kavon...@dartmouth.edu (Henry R. Broaddus) writes:
>>> Are all issues of Clan Destine going to be priced at $2.50?!
>>
>>I'll admit that there is no real reason Marvel should charge more, but
>>I'm more than happy to pay the additional money for Alan Davis art.
>Well, the whole rationale behind upping the X-books
>and other books to $1.95 is because they're now "deluxe"
>books of higher quality -- and they come with a higher
>price tag. ClanDestine is definitely higher quality
>than any of the $1.95 Marvel books out now, so it's
>priced accordingly... =)
Well, let's see here. ClanDestine is printed on "high quality"
paper, so let's assume that would justify Marvel pricing it at
$1.95. ClanDestine #2 has a wrap-around cover, so this "deluxe"
cover probably convinced Marvel they should charge $2.50. After all,
they lost that valuable back cover ad space to bring you more art.
Whatever.
Whether or not this is anything close to an accurate assessment
of Marvel's pricing logic, I would still agree with that the price
is a bit high. However, the book's good enough that I'm willing to
let the price consideration slide for a couple issues and see how
things develop.
Holy Moley!
>milk...@maple.circa.ufl.edu (Holy Moley!) writes:
>>Well, the whole rationale behind upping the X-books
>>and other books to $1.95 is because they're now "deluxe"
>>books of higher quality -- and they come with a higher
>>price tag. ClanDestine is definitely higher quality
>>than any of the $1.95 Marvel books out now, so it's
>>priced accordingly... =)
>
> Well, let's see here. ClanDestine is printed on "high quality"
>paper, so let's assume that would justify Marvel pricing it at
> $1.95. ClanDestine #2 has a wrap-around cover, so this "deluxe"
>cover probably convinced Marvel they should charge $2.50.
I haven't been reading Previews, but I was under the
impression that the entire series was going to be
priced at $2.50. Which is okay by me, because as I
said, ClanDestine is probably the highest quality
Marvel book out there -- and would still be even if
it were printed on tissue paper... =)
I really don't think the price is high at all -- maybe
in comparison to Marvel's other titles, but it's
about the same level as the rest of the marketplace.
Look at the prices on the books from Valiant, Image,
and Dark Horse. It seems like $2.50 is the cover
price I come across the most often when I go to the
shop to pick up my favorite comics. With the
exception of the $2.95 Bravura books that is... =(
ber...@d0ssc1.fnal.gov
>
> Enough about prices : doesn't anyone have any comments on the comic
> itself ? I think the art is glorious and the storytelling is vintage
> Alan Davis. In particular, there are the little Alan Davis touches
> (such as the guy getting intoxicated on chocolate) that are delightful.
>
After a slow start this series has really gotton going, I really like Alan
Davis' art and story telling and this comic is a welcome replacement to
Excalibur. I particularily liked the chicolate scene.
One comment, Alan could hae done this comic anywhere. Is it a creator owned
title or has he sold the whole idea to Marvel. This is the sort of stuff that
would fit in well with the Bravura or Legend imprints.
>
> Is there any possibility that Alan will pick up his beloved Captain
> Britain and Meggan over from whatever awful fate has befallen them in
> the pages of Excalibur ?
>
Yesyesyesyes!!!! Please!!!!!!!!!
And while were at it how about the Knights of Pendragon if we can skip the
abysmal second series.
> Abhijit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- DR A. - Cuius testiculos habes, -
- - habeas cardia et cerebellum. -
- (Iain A. Bertram) - -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods) -
- BER...@FNALD0.FNAL.GOV - -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abhiji...@transarc.com
Kavon...@dartmouth.edu (Henry R. Broaddus) writes:
>
> I don't think so. It's "justified" to charge enough to cover expenses
> and turn a tidy profit. For this reason, small press books are
> "justified" in charging $2.50 per issue (ie Bone).
But Bone
a) Sells nearly as much as Clan Destine
b) Doesn't have color or glossy paper
c) Costs 45 cents more.
This is not to knock Bone (a very fine comic), but simply to point out
that prices aren't always fair.
>If we
> continue to buy Clan Destine at $2.50 a pop, expect the deluxe ($1.95)
> versions of Marvel books to be replaced with a prestige version priced
> at $2.50. Somebody at Marvel Comics is making Clan Destine a guinea
> pig.
I understand your concern and point of view, but currently Clandestine
is one of only three Marvel titles I buy. Its also probably the only
one I'm willing to pay $2.50 for. I don't really care if Marvel ups the
prices on its other titles, because I'll probably simply drop them.
Enough about prices : doesn't anyone have any comments on the comic
itself ? I think the art is glorious and the storytelling is vintage
Alan Davis. In particular, there are the little Alan Davis touches
(such as the guy getting intoxicated on chocolate) that are delightful.
Is there any possibility that Alan will pick up his beloved Captain
Britain and Meggan over from whatever awful fate has befallen them in
the pages of Excalibur ?
Abhijit
Holy Moley!
>Enough about prices : doesn't anyone have any comments on the comic
>itself ? I think the art is glorious and the storytelling is vintage
>Alan Davis. In particular, there are the little Alan Davis touches
>(such as the guy getting intoxicated on chocolate) that are delightful.
I wish I knew how to change the subject line on replies
in my newsreader! ARG! But anyhow, I'd say that ClanDestine
is currently my favorite Marvel comic. The artwork is
absolutely terrific combining beautifully rendered figurework
with great storytelling (tho I have to admit I'm getting
a bit tired of the non-rectangular panels), and the story
combines a mystery with great touches of humor and superheroics.
Sort of the same kind of combination of art and story I used
to expect from the Peter David/Dale Keown collaboration
on the Hulk. It's well worth the $2.50, and I actually
like the glossy paper (it makes Mark Farmer's inking stand
out even more).
>Is there any possibility that Alan will pick up his beloved Captain
>Britain and Meggan over from whatever awful fate has befallen them in
>the pages of Excalibur ?
I dunno, I've gotten awfully attached to the ClanDestine
characters after only 3 issues, and I'd like to see Alan
Davis stick to it for a few years to come instead of
doing Captain Britain again. And as far as the nature of
the book goes, it seems like the Clan would be closed
off to only members of the family. Besides, I heard that
Captain Britain got turned into some goofus called
Brittanic with a new uniform. That idea should've been
sunk with the Titanic...
Henry R. Broaddus
Abhiji...@transarc.com writes:
> I understand your concern and point of view, but currently Clandestine
> is one of only three Marvel titles I buy. Its also probably the only
> one I'm willing to pay $2.50 for. I don't really care if Marvel ups the
> prices on its other titles, because I'll probably simply drop them.
That's certainly justified. It just surprises me that so many folks
crucified Marvel for the deluxe scandal, but failed to even mention
Clan Destine.
I maintain that Clan Destine is a guinea pig for Marvel. That guinea
pig may very well turn out to be a cash cow. If this is the case, hold
on to your wallets.
Anyone who is willing to pay $2.50 for Clan Destine is telling Marvel
that they will pay $2.50 for a good comic book. Admittedly, the key
word here is "good" (read: Alan Davis). I must confess that I'm still
very tempted to continue getting Clan Destine in spite of the cost. I
regret, however, that the high price tag will prevent some fans, mainly
younger readers, from enjoying this title. Furthermore, I see no
justification of the cost (not that Marvel really needs any
justification). Clan Destine is a Marvel book which outsold many
cheaper Marvel books. Unless Alan Davis is demanding an inordinately
high paycheck, Marvel is making a fortune on Clan Destine.
I also know that I will not be able to purchase the number of titles I
currently read and enjoy now if their average cost is $2.50.
Maybe I'm rattling sabres unnecessarily. Maybe Clan Destine is an
exception to Marvel pricing procedures. I hope so, but I'm worried...
> Enough about prices : doesn't anyone have any comments on the comic
> itself ? I think the art is glorious and the storytelling is vintage
> Alan Davis. In particular, there are the little Alan Davis touches
> (such as the guy getting intoxicated on chocolate) that are delightful.
No! No! Don't start talking about how good it is! You are weakening
my resolve not to buy it! That's just not fair!!! =)
BTW - What are the other two titles you pick up, Abhijit?
BTW part deux - My real name *is* Henry Broaddus. Several people have
sent e-mail to my roomate (Kavon Adli). I apologize for the way that
whenever anyone quotes my posts I am listed as Kavon Adli (Henry R.
Broaddus). My Powerbook is still sick, so I'm using his computer until
mine gets fixed.
Dwight Williams
In a previous article, ber...@d0ssc1.fnal.gov () says:
>In article Abhiji...@transarc.com writes:
>>
>> Enough about prices : doesn't anyone have any comments on the comic
>> itself ? I think the art is glorious and the storytelling is vintage
>> Alan Davis. In particular, there are the little Alan Davis touches
>> (such as the guy getting intoxicated on chocolate) that are delightful.
>>
>Davis' art and story telling and this comic is a welcome replacement to
>Excalibur. I particularily liked the chicolate scene.
>One comment, Alan could hae done this comic anywhere. Is it a creator owned
>title or has he sold the whole idea to Marvel. This is the sort of stuff that
>would fit in well with the Bravura or Legend imprints.
No arguments here, therefore no comment. Sorry for the bandwidth wastage.
>>
>> Is there any possibility that Alan will pick up his beloved Captain
>> Britain and Meggan over from whatever awful fate has befallen them in
>> the pages of Excalibur ?
>>
>Yesyesyesyes!!!! Please!!!!!!!!!
>And while were at it how about the Knights of Pendragon if we can skip the
>abysmal second series.
Knights of Pendragon v.1. Now _there_ was a book worth keeping as it was
without everyone going spandex regardless of whether or not they had
powers. The feeling that at any and every moment you really could get in
over your head...and lose it. Forever. Genuine sense of peril here.
Brrrrr.
Is there any way we can get that book back to the spirit it started out
with? I sometimes think Abnett and Lanning are wasting their talents on
ForceWorks(but not with Punisher: Year One, mind you)...
They _were_ the ones who wrote Pendragon, right?
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca)
1706 Caminiti Cres., Orleans, ON, Canada K4A 1M1
Abhiji...@transarc.com
Kavon...@dartmouth.edu (Henry R. Broaddus) writes:
> BTW - What are the other two titles you pick up, Abhijit?
The other two Marvel titles I get on a regular basis (apart from
Clandestine) are Hulk and Gen X. It remains to be seen if I subsist
with Gen X through the alternate-Universe storyline. I don't have any
particular anti-Marvel bias, though. Give FF or Silver Surfer a good
writer and I'll be back like a shot.
Paul O'Brien
>I understand your concern and point of view, but currently Clandestine
>is one of only three Marvel titles I buy. Its also probably the only
>one I'm willing to pay $2.50 for. I don't really care if Marvel ups the
>prices on its other titles, because I'll probably simply drop them.
But it's not a question of whether we're willing to pay $2.50. It's
more that Marvel are charging a ridiculous mark-up price for no
discernible reason (why ClanDestine rather than a more established
book?).
>Enough about prices : doesn't anyone have any comments on the comic
>itself ? I think the art is glorious and the storytelling is vintage
>Alan Davis. In particular, there are the little Alan Davis touches
>(such as the guy getting intoxicated on chocolate) that are delightful.
The art's certainly excellent, but I'm reserving judgement on the
storyline until he gets the origin out of the way. And I could
live without characters called Alice Springs and Kay Sera. But
that's just being picky. It's good, yes, but I preferred his
Excalibur so far.
>Is there any possibility that Alan will pick up his beloved Captain
>Britain and Meggan over from whatever awful fate has befallen them in
>the pages of Excalibur ?
Unlikely, since that book has a regular team already. You'll be
pleased to hear that Warren Ellis has, on his second issue on the
book, blatantly dumped the entire Britanic plotline and written it
off as Brian adjusting to his experiences. So he's talking in
plain English again and acting like a member of the human race.
The tone, I think, was very clearly that this was a plotline so
silly that they weren't even going to dignify it with a resolution.
Paul O'Brien
pr...@festival.ed.ac.uk, elf...@srv0.law.ed.ac.uk
Nice one, Angus. Looking forward to the show.
Craig Wagner
: But it's not a question of whether we're willing to pay $2.50. It's
: more that Marvel are charging a ridiculous mark-up price for no
: discernible reason (why ClanDestine rather than a more established
: book?).
Probably because Marvel knows that Alan Davis has lots of fans who will
buy the book regardless of its price.
--
Craig Wagner | Internet: wag...@cuug.ab.ca
Calgary, AB | wag...@progas.com
H: (403) 271-7387 | Fidonet: 1:134/40
W: (403) 296-0663 |