Due to the editor's bigotry against those who do not share his religious beliefs, I am forced to end my association with Comic Book Galaxy immediately. My reviews will continue to appear here and at Comics Worth Reading, http://www.comicsworthreading.com.
I regret that things came to this, but I cannot continue to support intolerance and prejudice.
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com Theater of the Meek, League of Super-Groovy Crimefighters #1, October Previews, Breakfast After Noon, Castle Waiting, Orion, more!
KurtBusiek wrote: > Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people who > write anti-Christian material. ... > a statement of his own beliefs, which are that Christianity is a negative > institution that merits a highly-critical stance. He's expressed support for
Hey, what is wrong with that. Christianity IS negative.
KurtBusiek at kurtbus...@aol.comics wrote: > Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people > who write anti-Christian material.
Alan Doane said a bit more than that; he made bigoted remarks about Christians as a group. (He agreed that he was a bigot -- his stance is not in question by anyone involved.) It was not about particular material; it was about prejudicial attitudes and inaccurate stereotypes about entire groups of people.
> She refused to read it
I refused to discuss bigotry with the bigot, yes. I also refuse to read KKK propaganda for similar reasons.
> and expressed a lack of tolerance for any expression of sentiments she > considers bigotry.
Not true. I asked that Alan apologize to me for the insults and keep this prejudice off a comic message board. I at no point asked him to change his mind or attempted to tell him what to think; I only asked him to show those who believe otherwise common courtesy. He refused and continued insulting an entire group of people based on what they choose to believe.
> There was a little more back-and-forth,
Not true. There was a request for an apology, there was a refusal, and there was a resignation. That was it. In fact, the primary discussion took place on a closed mailing list, so you didn't see it.
> and she quit, carrying the ball over > here to get maximum coverage for her intolerance of Alan's views
Not true. I posted here because I had been vocal about my support of the site, so I wanted it to be clear that I was no longer associated with it for moral reasons. The site is frequently hyped here, so it seemed appropriate.
> It should perhaps be noted that Alan has not, apparently, restricted anyone's > right to air their beliefs at the site, or tried to silence anyone.
It should be noted that Alan's comments, if they had been about blacks or gays, wouldn't be tolerated by anyone with an ounce of sense.
> Johanna, in the name of tolerance, won't tolerate such views being aired
Not true. I said it was inappropriate and I wouldn't be associated with it. I'm sure Alan appreciates your defense of his free speech, Mr. Busiek -- but doesn't that right apply to me as well?
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com
GrapeApe at grape...@aol.comjunk wrote: > I figured the entire thing for some sort of publicity gimmick to get people > to check out the site.
Sadly, no.
> Couldn't find any of Joannas reviews there either ( pulled at her request I > imagine)
Yes. My reviews are available at my web site.
To clear things up: this had nothing to do with any reviews, but with the loudly expressed bigoted comments of the site editor about Christians.
> but her cryptic comments ended up doing exactly that with her announcement.
That's fine. I wish the other reviewers the best, and I don't expect them to take the same action I did. Everyone has to decide for themselves how to tolerate intolerance.
That announcement certainly serves as a teaser as to what could possibly be religious in nature about such a gig.
So I trot over to CBG, which I have never visited, to try to figure out what the fuss is about. I don't visit comic web sites much if at all.
As far as I can tell," the fuss" is mostly about One Book by One Creator and one person claiming insult about same (or its review)..
I don't expect you would want to clarify, else the entire witch hunt possibly be brought up again (sorry for the choice of words here, applicable or not)
But wtf was this about? Someone getting dissed at a review of Ellis or Transmet or what? That is the best that I can glean from that site.
I've never read that book. Does it have its own religious following?
>>But wtf was this about? Someone getting dissed at a review of Ellis or
Transmet or what? That is the best that I can glean from that site.>>
As best I can figure:
Someone called PREACHER anti-Christian.
Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people who write anti-Christian material.
Johanna called him a bigot.
Alan said if the label covers anti-Christian feeling, then it applies to him, and referred Johanna to a fairly thoughtful essay he's written on the subject.
She refused to read it, and expressed a lack of tolerance for any expression of sentiments she considers bigotry.
There was a little more back-and-forth, and she quit, carrying the ball over here to get maximum coverage for her intolerance of Alan's views, whether they're intolerant or not.
It should perhaps be noted that Alan has not, apparently, restricted anyone's right to air their beliefs at the site, or tried to silence anyone. He's made a statement of his own beliefs, which are that Christianity is a negative institution that merits a highly-critical stance. He's expressed support for those who take such a stance, but hasn't attempted to keep anyone from expressing other beliefs or taking other stances, as far as I can tell.
Johanna, in the name of tolerance, won't tolerate such views being aired, and has severed her connection with the site rather than be associated with unpopular speech of this sort.
kurt The SUPERSTAR Ashcan, by Busiek & Immonen, is now available online, at the ApeNation Trading Post! Plus: Check out SHOCKROCKETS and other Gorilla comics FREE at the site! http://www.apenation.com/
In article <20001004210413.14355.00000...@ng-cu1.aol.com>,
KurtBusiek <kurtbus...@aol.comics> wrote: >Someone called PREACHER anti-Christian.
I suppose, btw, that this is correct as far as it goes, but then it's not so much anti-Christian as anti-everything. Nobody comes off looking good in Preacher. Including the writer, artist, editor, comics company, etc. But then, I'm the only movie reviewer in America to pan American Beauty in print, so what do I know?
(Well, except that whatever passes for religion in reacher only bears occasional resemblances to Christianity here on planet Earth.)
>Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people who >write anti-Christian material.
Someone criticized Christianity? I'm shocked. Next thing you know, he'll be nailing criticisms up on a church door. All Hallows is only a few weeks away, after all.
>Johanna called him a bigot.
Quelle surprise.
>It should perhaps be noted that Alan has not, apparently, restricted anyone's >right to air their beliefs at the site, or tried to silence anyone. He's made >a statement of his own beliefs, which are that Christianity is a negative >institution that merits a highly-critical stance. He's expressed support for >those who take such a stance, but hasn't attempted to keep anyone from >expressing other beliefs or taking other stances, as far as I can tell.
>Johanna, in the name of tolerance, won't tolerate such views being aired, and >has severed her connection with the site rather than be associated with >unpopular speech of this sort.
So, does this mean they no longer have the most qualified reviewers on the Internet? After all, she was the only one to present her qualifications, and now she's quit. -- The CFV for the removal of rec.arts.comics.other-media has been posted to news.announce.newgroups. As this vote has the potential to impact traffic throughout the rac.* hierarchy, I urge rac.ers to vote. Vote to keep it, vote to remove it, vote to abstain, but please express interest in this vote.
Actually, not to speak for Johanna or anything, but her decision to leave CB Galaxy had nothing to do with the Transmet arguments, which were largely with me. Her decision was spurred by remarks made on the message board by Alan David Doane, the founder of the website. Doane posted several demeaning, bigoted (he himself admits he's bigoted when it comes to Christianity), and insulting remarks under a thread titled "Comics from Science Fiction Book Club", believe it or not. Check it out for yourself and see if you agree.
Actually, since I couldn't suss what the fuss was about reading the wrong threads apparently, grabbing a peek at the most active message thread...
...I figured the entire thing for some sort of publicity gimmick to get people to check out the site. Professional (in the armchair "I'm a writer on the web" sense at least) arguers, writers of opinion, admitting to straws breaking their camels back because of differing opinions, something they should expect, seems a bit disingenuine.
A faked street fight to draw a crowd.
But I have yet another conspiracy theory hatching from my confusion.
The Transmet argument seemed to be related to a review by another reviewer- which I couldn't find at the site ( genuine)
Couldn't find any of Joannas reviews there either ( pulled at her request I imagine) or any reviews of Transmet, the Ellis red herring I was chasing, at her own site.
Also thought it might be her apparently controversial take on Jinxworld, raising the ruckus, the creator of which has a page hosted by the CBG folks as well.
Of course both these books have their accolades, being lauded by squiddies, fwiw to those who know what those awards are. I have read neither author however.
So what is the conspiracy theory the question marks above my head were hatching? I thought that some bozo troll reading and stirring up those message boards had cracked and brought some sort of frivelous lawsuit against the site., because all of the controversial reviews were not available.. Its like Gary Groth taking the Comics Journal directly from the printing plant to the paper shredders, or Name Witheld writing letters in invisible ink. The CBLDF hasn't had to defend web content yet have they?
Now Donna may not have wished to bring any more attention to the site she left, but her cryptic comments ended up doing exactly that with her announcement.
Best not to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, I hear.
>> It should perhaps be noted that Alan has not, apparently, restricted anyone's >> right to air their beliefs at the site, or tried to silence anyone.
>It should be noted that Alan's comments, if they had been about blacks or >gays, wouldn't be tolerated by anyone with an ounce of sense.
Perhaps.
Speaking as someone with more than an ounce of sense, I'd tolerate it. James Madison would tolerate it and John Adams and Thomas Jefferson would tolerate it, and Jesus Christ would tolerate it, for that matter. Agree with it, no, but tolerate it? Get real.
I can get you directions to Voltaire's grave if you want to violate it or drive a stake through his heart or repeal the 1st Amendment to the United States Constitution or something.
-- The CFV for the removal of rec.arts.comics.other-media has been posted to news.announce.newgroups. As this vote has the potential to impact traffic throughout the rac.* hierarchy, I urge rac.ers to vote. Vote to keep it, vote to remove it, vote to abstain, but please express interest in this vote.
On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 23:07:54 -0400, Johanna Draper Carlson
<joha...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote: >KurtBusiek at kurtbus...@aol.comics wrote:
>> Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people >> who write anti-Christian material.
>Alan Doane said a bit more than that; he made bigoted remarks about >Christians as a group. (He agreed that he was a bigot -- his stance is not >in question by anyone involved.) It was not about particular material; it >was about prejudicial attitudes and inaccurate stereotypes about entire >groups of people.
Inaccurate stereotypes is in itself a obscure statement since stereotypes by definition are inaccurate. That said religion is easier to stereotype because it's a belief system. As an aside, I hate people using the word bigot when applied to religion. IMO religion doesn't deserve the same respect as race since one is merely a belief system and the other is a factor of birth.
>> She refused to read it
>I refused to discuss bigotry with the bigot, yes. I also refuse to read KKK >propaganda for similar reasons.
Before you throw the KKK flag in the ring, was it HATE literature.
>> and expressed a lack of tolerance for any expression of sentiments she >> considers bigotry.
>Not true. I asked that Alan apologize to me for the insults and keep this >prejudice off a comic message board. I at no point asked him to change his >mind or attempted to tell him what to think; I only asked him to show those >who believe otherwise common courtesy. He refused and continued insulting an >entire group of people based on what they choose to believe.
I read some of his remarks and all I can say is that he won't have many Christians visiting his board. Simple as that. On the other hand I feel it's within your rights to express your views and decide to disassociate yourself because of them. Now saying all that lets not forget that Christians are the largest group of bigots towards homosexuality. How can you be angry that Alan doesn't like Christians, and call him a bigot, when Christians tend to think homosexuality is a sin and AIDS is a form of punishment.
>> There was a little more back-and-forth,
>Not true. There was a request for an apology, there was a refusal, and there >was a resignation. That was it. In fact, the primary discussion took place >on a closed mailing list, so you didn't see it.
You only have to read Alan's one post on the message board to get the gist of it.
>> and she quit, carrying the ball over >> here to get maximum coverage for her intolerance of Alan's views
>Not true. I posted here because I had been vocal about my support of the >site, so I wanted it to be clear that I was no longer associated with it for >moral reasons. The site is frequently hyped here, so it seemed appropriate.
Actually up until now I'd never even been to the site. Not a bad site.
>> It should perhaps be noted that Alan has not, apparently, restricted anyone's >> right to air their beliefs at the site, or tried to silence anyone.
>It should be noted that Alan's comments, if they had been about blacks or >gays, wouldn't be tolerated by anyone with an ounce of sense.
That is because choosing religion is like choosing what newspaper you want to read. You can change your religion any time you want, you can choose not to be religious or you can choose to be "sort of" religious. None of those apply to homosexuality or race.
PS I don't think Preacher is anti-Christian. Anti implies against whereas Preacher expresses a variation of the mythology. Frankly the only similarity between Preacher and Christianity is the use of the being God and the Angels. Everything else is artistic license on Ennis's part.
>>It should be noted that Alan's comments, if they had been about blacks or
gays, wouldn't be tolerated by anyone with an ounce of sense.>>
Had they been about the Moonies or the John Birch Society, I imagine they'd have gone down just fine.
You're comparing apples and oranges -- a belief system with an accident of birth.
> I'm sure Alan appreciates your defense of his free speech, Mr. Busiek -- but
doesn't that right apply to me as well?>
In what way have I infringed your freedom of speech? I support your right to say what you like, just as I do Alan's -- and, for that matter, your right to be intolerant of his beliefs to the point where you won't subject yourself to them or associate with him. I support my own right to find your statements intolerant and close-minded, too.
kurt The SUPERSTAR Ashcan, by Busiek & Immonen, is now available online, at the ApeNation Trading Post! Plus: Check out SHOCKROCKETS and other Gorilla comics FREE at the site! http://www.apenation.com/
In article <20001005001521.25114.00000...@ng-da1.aol.com>, KurtBusiek
<kurtbus...@aol.comics> wrote: > >>It should be noted that Alan's comments, if they had been about blacks or > gays, wouldn't be tolerated by anyone with an ounce of sense.>>
> You're comparing apples and oranges -- a belief system with an accident of > birth.
In article <Pine.OSF.4.05.10010051250290.16288-100...@barra.jcu.edu.au>, Paul
\"Duggy\" Duggan <jc122...@jcu.edu.au> wrote: > On 5 Oct 2000, KurtBusiek wrote: > > a statement of his own beliefs, which are that Christianity is a negative > > institution that merits a highly-critical stance.
> Not into Christianity myself, but it's not an institution, it's a belief > system tainted by some very only institutions.
> On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 23:07:54 -0400, Johanna Draper Carlson > <joha...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> >KurtBusiek at kurtbus...@aol.comics wrote: > >> and expressed a lack of tolerance for any expression of sentiments she > >> considers bigotry.
> >Not true. I asked that Alan apologize to me for the insults and keep this > >prejudice off a comic message board. I at no point asked him to change his > >mind or attempted to tell him what to think; I only asked him to show those > >who believe otherwise common courtesy. He refused and continued insulting an > >entire group of people based on what they choose to believe.
> I read some of his remarks and all I can say is that he won't have > many Christians visiting his board. Simple as that. On the other > hand I feel it's within your rights to express your views and decide > to disassociate yourself because of them. Now saying all that lets > not forget that Christians are the largest group of bigots towards > homosexuality. How can you be angry that Alan doesn't like > Christians, and call him a bigot, when Christians tend to think > homosexuality is a sin and AIDS is a form of punishment.
I am not a usual vocal participant in this forum; I simply read through it now and again, but when I am insulted to this extent I cannot refrain from posting.
It is true that most people vocally opposed to gay rights are Christians. It is not true, however, to say that most Christians are opposed to gay rights. There is a big difference between those two statements. Most Christians in the United States are what could probably be considered on the liberal side of moderate[1]. Pat Robertson and his ilk are a small minority, albeit a very vocal minority, but still small.
Thank you. Joel Luber
[1] Assuming that a member of a national Christian organization believes the official doctrine. Also discounting non-observant Roman Catholics, the largest single religious group in the country.
>>good thing you're not running for president Kurt.>>
A very good thing for us all.
But what's wrong with the phrase "accident of birth"? It doesn't signify anything wrong, merely that something came out the way it did because of factors outside the person's control -- he was born that way.
kurt The SUPERSTAR Ashcan, by Busiek & Immonen, is now available online, at the ApeNation Trading Post! Plus: Check out SHOCKROCKETS and other Gorilla comics FREE at the site! http://www.apenation.com/
>But what's wrong with the phrase "accident of birth"? It doesn't signify >anything wrong, merely that something came out the way it did because of >factors outside the person's control -- he was born that way.
Someone takes the phrase 'accident of birth" to be referring to the birth of Jesus Christ.
A minority member interprets the phrase "accident of birth" to mean that their very existance is an accident. Or that every member of their minority is a bastard of some sort.
The group in question is a birth defect of some sort.
Accident has a connotation which will be applied regardless of intent. It isn't what you signify, it is what the electorate hears.
On 05 Oct 2000 01:04:13 GMT, kurtbus...@aol.comics (KurtBusiek) wrote:
>It should perhaps be noted that Alan has not, apparently, restricted anyone's >right to air their beliefs at the site, or tried to silence anyone.
Nope. I have full control over the message board, and have to date deleted one post: one of my own with an incorrect link in it.
> He's made >a statement of his own beliefs, which are that Christianity is a negative >institution that merits a highly-critical stance. He's expressed support for >those who take such a stance, but hasn't attempted to keep anyone from >expressing other beliefs or taking other stances, as far as I can tell.
>Johanna, in the name of tolerance, won't tolerate such views being aired, and >has severed her connection with the site rather than be associated with >unpopular speech of this sort.
Your summation pretty much matches my experience over the last few hours. Thanks, Kurt, for providing a primer for those who might have missed it on the Galaxy message board.
On 05 Oct 2000 01:52:54 GMT, jsnpritch...@aol.com (JsnPritchett) wrote:
>Actually, not to speak for Johanna or anything, but her decision to leave CB >Galaxy had nothing to do with the Transmet arguments, which were largely with >me. Her decision was spurred by remarks made on the message board by Alan >David Doane, the founder of the website.
"ONe of" the founders, thanks.
>Doane posted several demeaning, >bigoted (he himself admits he's bigoted when it comes to Christianity), and >insulting remarks under a thread titled "Comics from Science Fiction Book >Club", believe it or not. Check it out for yourself and see if you agree.
Yes, and see if you have the presence of mind to pick up the tongue in cheek nature of the post, which Jason clearly does not.
On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:51:00 -0400, Nenad Vidovic <ne...@yesic.com> wrote:
>KurtBusiek wrote: >> Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people who >> write anti-Christian material. >... >> a statement of his own beliefs, which are that Christianity is a negative >> institution that merits a highly-critical stance. He's expressed support for
>Hey, what is wrong with that. Christianity IS negative.
On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 23:07:54 -0400, Johanna Draper Carlson
<joha...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote: >KurtBusiek at kurtbus...@aol.comics wrote:
>> Alan Doane said he's all for anti-Christian stuff, and more power to people >> who write anti-Christian material.
>Alan Doane said a bit more than that; he made bigoted remarks about >Christians as a group. (He agreed that he was a bigot -- his stance is not >in question by anyone involved.) It was not about particular material; it >was about prejudicial attitudes and inaccurate stereotypes about entire >groups of people.
If you think, for example, that the Spanish Inquisition is an inaccurate representation of xtian history, I'd love to hear more.
You, on the other hand, have refused to read about the history I have offered up, proving Jesus Christ never even existed, and was in fact an amalgamation of earlier, pagan sun gods.
>>Accident has a connotation which will be applied regardless of intent. It
isn't what you signify, it is what the electorate hears.>>
Darn good thing I'm not running for President.
I tend to use phrases according to their generally-accepted meaning, rather than pulling them to bits and taking the bits out of context. I realize that's a bad thing in politics, but I don't expect I'd get far in politics even considering my pesky verbal habits.
kurt The SUPERSTAR Ashcan, by Busiek & Immonen, is now available online, at the ApeNation Trading Post! Plus: Check out SHOCKROCKETS and other Gorilla comics FREE at the site! http://www.apenation.com/
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