Has anyone submitted artwork to Marvel recently?
Christopher Basken
a very nice rejection note from Scott Elmer. It went into numerous
criticisms as to where my weak spots were and so forth, but I got a distinct
"form letter" feeling from it. For instance, it criticized my anatomy,
pencil-line-thickness, facial expressions, etc. While I love good
criticism, I'm not sure this letter was really written by someone who looked
at my pages, but was just sent as some kind of standard rejection.
If you're interested in taking a look, the 4 pages are online here.
http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_1.jpg
http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_1.jpg
Christopher Basken
"Christopher Basken" <ch...@basken.com> wrote:
>
> If you're interested in taking a look, the 4 pages are online here.
>
Those would be:
http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_1.jpg
http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_2.jpg
http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_3.jpg
http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_4.jpg
I can see valid criticism about clarity issues -- when Thor throws his
hammer, it's a little hard to see properly, but I think anatomy and body
language criticisms are less warranted.
So, anyway, my real question is (aside from a trolling for some critiques),
does Marvel just hand out stock rejection letters, or are these pages just
loaded with problems?
(sorry about the double post)
Thanks,
Chris
HAL
> http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_1.jpg
> http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_2.jpg
> http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_3.jpg
> http://www.werewolf.com/chriz/marvelsub/thor_4.jpg
>
> I can see valid criticism about clarity issues -- when Thor throws his
> hammer, it's a little hard to see properly, but I think anatomy and body
> language criticisms are less warranted.
>
> So, anyway, my real question is (aside from a trolling for some critiques),
> does Marvel just hand out stock rejection letters, or are these pages just
> loaded with problems?
Chris -
You show potential, but since you asked for honest criticism:
- Thor's face looks different in almost every panel (pg 2 - middle panel
- he looks like Quentin Tarentino)
-the anatomy in Thor's arms (pg 1 -middle panel; pg 4 - holding hammer
aloft) and legs (pg 3 - panel 3) is sometimes inaccurate; hands are
occasionally distorted (pg 1 bottom panel)
- style gets cartoony when characters are far away; backgrounds look
rushed (pg 2 -top)
I think Marvel gave you a valid, personalized critique. Keep tryin'!
/hal, who can't draw for shit
AGPVale
Keep up the good work...!
-Vale
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I got a distinct "form letter" feeling from it. For instance, it criticized
> my anatomy, pencil-line-thickness, facial expressions, etc.
I haven't looked at your pages, but these areas are common problems in many
cases of aspiring artists. You raise a good point, though: with any
criticism, it's up to you how much you take from it. If you don't think it
applies to you, then ignore it. Part of being an artist is knowing what
you're honestly capable of, your strong and weak points, and in which
directions you want to grow.
(However, since these are people you are presumably interested in getting
work from, flat out ignoring their advice might hurt your chances in future.
It's easier to get work from editors when you demonstrate that you listen to
what they say and you incorporate their desires in your product.)
I'm surprised Marvel sent out letters at all, frankly. That's very
impressive.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Dale Hicks
ch...@basken.com says...
> I did the Thor pencil test (for the contest a few months ago), and received
> a very nice rejection note from Scott Elmer. It went into numerous
> criticisms as to where my weak spots were and so forth, but I got a distinct
> "form letter" feeling from it. For instance, it criticized my anatomy,
Someone else spoke to this. (really, it's no worse than some of the fan-
fave mangaish artists, but oh well)
> pencil-line-thickness,
I assumed they asked for more variety? Your submissions had a very thin
line almost without exception. Few artists (Ha leaps to mind) get away
with that.
> facial expressions,
Hard to judge without knowing the story.
As to that, storytelling is shaky, at least if you're looking to be
mainstream. I should be able to follow the story without the words, but
I'm at a loss as to what's happening. I think it starts and ends with
Thor using his dimension hopping, but you can't see the spinning hammer
well. I don't think I've ever seen an aaa-chooo form of storytelling
where he throws the hammer before (if there's a setup to a throw, it's
generally more dynamic than someone aiming a dart).
Backgrounds are weak.
You're not supposed to submit unfinished work (unless you're submitting
for a penciller or inker job).
Doesn't Thor have material under the arms instead of wearing a vest?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Darryl Sheakley
emote;
>You're not supposed to submit unfinished
> work (unless you're submitting for a penciller
> or inker job).
It was a pencil talent search, wasn't it?
--
Darryl's Comics!
Dale Hicks
padawan...@webtv.net says...
> dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid (Dale Hicks) felt it necessary to
> emote;
>
> >You're not supposed to submit unfinished
> > work (unless you're submitting for a penciller
> > or inker job).
>
> It was a pencil talent search, wasn't it?
Maybe I'm being unclear -- the only way you submit something that was
half finished and half unfinished is if you're campaigning for more of a
general artist job instead of penciller only.
I'd just submit two samples for that case, though, rather than one half
done one. But I've submitted zero, so keep in mind what you paid for
this advice.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Pasley & Jeff
I work in animation (storyboards, layouts, background design) and did a
four-year BFA (sometimes known as the Bachelor of Fuck-All). I also
published a one-shot Western comic. So much for my credentials. Here's
my two bits. Take from it what you will, and please don't take anything
I say too personally.
My favorite panel:
------------------
Page two, last panel. Nice drawing. Great expression!
In general:
-----------
(1) You do show potential, but your character drawings lack structure
and proportion.
(2) You really need to work on anatomy, and the best practice is drawing
from live models. If you can't take a class, then consult some drawing
books and use your friends as models.
(3) Your hands are often enormous and lack structure. (And check out
that Popeye arm on page 3!)
(4) Not counting the tower getting hit, there are only three or four
actual background in four pages!
(5) Expressions are a little too stiff.
(6) You also need to study drapery and the way clothing folds on the
figure. This shows up especially in Thor's cape.
(7) Take out some books on film storyboarding and staging. (Avoid
crossing the axis, he said cryptically...)
And now the rest, page by page.
PAGE 1:
-------
I'm not clear on this. Is the first panel set in the same location as
the last panel? If so, why the different angle with the city on the
opposite side?
Thor would probably break this poor guy's arm if he actually held him
like that in flight... ;)
PAGE 2:
-------
Characters have suddenly switched positions from the last panel of page
one.
Decent background by the way, but the characters are too cartoony.
The composition of panel three is unbalanced, with too much squeezed
into the lower right.
PAGE 3:
-------
Is Thor hugging the other guy? Why are they suddenly so close?
Panels two and three might flow better if you used two completely
different perspectives, or used _exactly_ the same perspective in each.
(Also, panel three looks kind of crowded.)
Perspective-wise, the speed lines in the fourth panel make it look like
the hammer is going to miss the tower.
The third tier looks like a jerky progression. You start out close, pull
back for a long shot, then go back in for something in between. Either
keep the same view in each panel or draw the viewer in closer and
closer. Don't pull back and forth.
The last panel could use some depth. Have the hammer coming at Thor from
the foreground instead of coming in horizontally from the left.
Page 4:
-------
Confusing layout. I assume that you want the two square panels to be
read one after the other, but this is not clear. The natural progression
for the eye is to read straight across the top from left to right, and
then to move down to the next tier. These four middle panels look
awkwardly like two horizontal tiers.
Your layout:
_____ _____
| | |
| 1 | |
|_____| 3 |
| |_____|
| 2 | 4 |
|_____|_____|
Can easily be mistaken for this layout:
_____ _____
| | |
| 1 | |
|_____| 2 |
| |_____|
| 3 | 4 |
|_____|_____|
Never give the viewer a choice to make in following your layout. We
naturally read panels left to right until there is no other option but
to move down a tier.
If you *must* do a vertical layout for a few panels, then the simplest
solution is to put the panels one on top of the other, letting each
panel run the full width of the page:
___________
| |
| 1 |
|___________|
| |
| 2 |
|___________|
If you can't do that, you should put vertically stacked panels off to
the right, with a single panel on the left that is as tall as all the
vertical tiers together. This way there is no confusion. We read from
right to left and then top to bottom:
_____ _____
| | |
| | 2 |
| 1 |_____|
| | |
| | 3 |
|_____|_____|
As long as you follow that rule, you should be safe:
_________________
| | | |
| | 2 | 3 |
| 1 |_____|_____|
| | |
| | 4 |
|_____|___________|
Thor has lost a finger in panel four.
Is panel five some sort of overhead shot? If so, the hammer has reversed
direction.
You have pretty much established a Thor-on-the-right,
other-guy-on-the-left relationship. This gets reversed halfway through
the page. This is crossing the axis.
----------
And that's it! Hope that was helpful. (Whew. Now I know why they use
form letters!)
--Jeff
=================================================================
Darryl Sheakley
>I can see valid criticism about clarity issues --
> when Thor throws his hammer, it's a little hard
> to see properly, but I think anatomy and body
> language criticisms are less warranted.
Nope.
Any criticism offered by a Marvel employee is warranted. Learn from what
they have to say.
If an editor likes your work, he will call you.
>So, anyway, my real question is (aside from a
> trolling for some critiques), does Marvel just
> hand out stock rejection letters, or are these
> pages just loaded with problems?
Both.
Christopher Basken
Without getting too defensive...
> > I did the Thor pencil test (for the contest a few months ago), and
received
> > a very nice rejection note from Scott Elmer. It went into numerous
> > criticisms as to where my weak spots were and so forth, but I got a
distinct
> > "form letter" feeling from it. For instance, it criticized my anatomy,
>
> Someone else spoke to this. (really, it's no worse than some of the fan-
> fave mangaish artists, but oh well)
Funny thing is, I thought I was attempting a style. I guess it's not
reading as such.
> > pencil-line-thickness,
>
> I assumed they asked for more variety? Your submissions had a very thin
> line almost without exception. Few artists (Ha leaps to mind) get away
> with that.
Well, they *are* just pencil lines. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the
concept.
> > facial expressions,
>
> Hard to judge without knowing the story.
Part of the problem is, this is essentially one big conversation. Next time
I'll pick the Spidey test.
> As to that, storytelling is shaky, at least if you're looking to be
> mainstream. I should be able to follow the story without the words, but
> I'm at a loss as to what's happening. I think it starts and ends with
> Thor using his dimension hopping, but you can't see the spinning hammer
> well. I don't think I've ever seen an aaa-chooo form of storytelling
> where he throws the hammer before (if there's a setup to a throw, it's
> generally more dynamic than someone aiming a dart).
Ha!
> Backgrounds are weak.
Mostly black space.
> You're not supposed to submit unfinished work (unless you're submitting
> for a penciller or inker job).
Yeah, these are pencils only.
> Doesn't Thor have material under the arms instead of wearing a vest?
Not according to the reference I used:
http://www.marvel.com/comics/bios/bio_thor.htm. Of course, now I see
they're changing it
(http://www.marvel.com/comics/yourman/xtras/101901_newthor.jpg).
I can't find the Thor example Marvel used to have on their page, so all I
can help you with in terms of the story material I was given is:
Thor & homeless man 'port to the broken Rainbow Bridge and Thor explains
where they are;
Homeless man (who up to this point had apparently been claiming to be
Heimdall) breaks down and confesses he's *not* Heimdall, but is still
somewhat befuddled as to his own identity (or something like that, it was
confusing to me, too);
Thor gets ticked, screams, throws the hammer at a tower to vent his anger
(ah-choo!);
Thor then kinda-sorta apologizes to the now-terrified homeless man, assures
him that they'll find out the truth together (warm & fuzzy moment), and they
'port home (or somewhere).
Thanks for all the responses. Back to the cliche...
Christopher Basken
>
> Maybe I'm being unclear -- the only way you submit something that was
> half finished and half unfinished is if you're campaigning for more of a
> general artist job instead of penciller only.
These are just pencils. No ink on the pages. I did my layouts in blue,
then went back and finished them in HB. The "faded" part on page 2, panel 1
was because I had done the whole city in blue but not completed the finishes
at the time of scanning.
Dale Hicks
ch...@basken.com says...
>
> Well, they *are* just pencil lines. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the
> concept.
I dunno, I just get so used to the hatch-shading that the pros use so
well, but I can't seem to figure out for the life of me. I can do a line
drawing, like you did, or I can do a full shading with pencils. But
comic book shading? I'm baffled by the pros.
You're right, a lot of the emphasis is put in later by the inker. I
misunderstood your work to be partially inked, instead of just having
very dark tight pencils, that's where my biggest confusion came in.
> Homeless man (who up to this point had apparently been claiming to be
> Heimdall) breaks down and confesses he's *not* Heimdall,
Now that you mention it, this sounds familiar. If it was this latest
run, I'll have to see what JR Jr did with it.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Jeremy Henderson
>impressive.
And I imagine the reason his may have sounded like a form letter is
that whoever wrote it probably had to write a LOT of them.
Boring stories by a boring man can be found at
http://www.storymania.com/cgibin/sm2/smshowauthorbox.cgi?page=1&author=HendersonJL
Robin Riggs
> I'm surprised Marvel sent out letters at all, frankly. That's very
> impressive.
As far as I know Marvel has always responded to submissions eventually.
Most people will get a form letter simply because of the thousands of
submissions they get. It's been dozen years or more since got any of
those replies but it was usually a form letter sometimes with a
handwritten note on the bottom going in to more specifics. The best I
ever got via mail was when Sal Amendola was submissions editor at DC and
he took sheets of tracing paper and drew over my pages to actually show
me what I was doing wrong along with lots of handwritten notes. Another
publisher (I forget which) had a checklist of common faults and would
check of those they felt applied to your work, again with handwritten
notes on the bottom sometimes.
--Robin.
Robin Riggs
I suppose I should preface this with an introduction so you know how to
take the criticism. I've been working for Marvel and DC regularly for
the past decade mostly as an inker but I pencil and colour too. I'm
currently the inker on Supergirl for DC and have just completed the
December issue of Captain Marvel for Marvel as well as inking Alan
Davis' piece in the Heroes magazine and pencilling and inking a page for
him for the DC 9-11 book.
> I did the Thor pencil test (for the contest a few months ago), and received
> a very nice rejection note from Scott Elmer. It went into numerous
> criticisms as to where my weak spots were and so forth, but I got a distinct
> "form letter" feeling from it.
It probably was but that doesn't mean you should ignore what it says.
> For instance, it criticized my anatomy,
Yes, your anatomy is pretty shakey. I'd advise doing as much life
drawing as you can get. Sketch from real people whenever you can.
> pencil-line-thickness,
It's rather crude by the standards of today. Try to check out some
professional pencilled pages, you can find them in various places
online.
> facial expressions
There's not really a very wide range on diplay and they aren't really
very attractive. Thor should be heroically handsome. He's your leading
man.
> etc. While I love good
> criticism, I'm not sure this letter was really written by someone who looked
> at my pages, but was just sent as some kind of standard rejection.
If you got a reply at all then your pages have been looked at and
considered.
>I can see valid criticism about clarity issues -- when Thor throws his
>hammer, it's a little hard to see properly, but I think anatomy and
>body language criticisms are less warranted.
No your drawing still needs work in those areas.
>So, anyway, my real question is (aside from a trolling for some
>critiques), does Marvel just hand out stock rejection letters, or are
>these pages just loaded with problems?
The answer to both of those is yes I'm afraid. You show promise but your
work isn't there yet. Keep at it but listen to feedback, especially from
editors. They're the one that do the hiring and firing.
--Robin.
Brian Jacks
> I've been working for Marvel and DC regularly for
>the past decade mostly as an inker but I pencil and colour too.
Great job on your HEROES piece, Robin.
-Brian
Christopher Basken
news:1f1ju6o.86ucsa1k9lv28N%rmr...@verizon.net...
> I suppose I should preface this with an introduction so you know how to
> take the criticism. I've been working for Marvel and DC regularly for
> the past decade mostly as an inker but I pencil and colour too. I'm
> currently the inker on Supergirl for DC and have just completed the
> December issue of Captain Marvel for Marvel as well as inking Alan
> Davis' piece in the Heroes magazine and pencilling and inking a page for
> him for the DC 9-11 book.
Wow, credentials! 8)
> > I did the Thor pencil test (for the contest a few months ago), and
received
> > a very nice rejection note from Scott Elmer. It went into numerous
> > criticisms as to where my weak spots were and so forth, but I got a
distinct
> > "form letter" feeling from it.
>
> It probably was but that doesn't mean you should ignore what it says.
It's not so much that I want to ignore it or not ignore it, it's that I was
wondering if I should take the specifics of it seriously as criticism.
> > For instance, it criticized my anatomy,
>
> Yes, your anatomy is pretty shakey. I'd advise doing as much life
> drawing as you can get. Sketch from real people whenever you can.
Shakey = oversimplified? I have a propensity towards Popeye-forearms and
big hands (can't help it, I'm kinda built that way myself, so everyone else
draws small fists from my point of view), but I'm pretty sure my general
proportions are more or less correct (limb lengths and so forth). I also
tend to avoid lots of little "muscley" lines, which, now that I think of it,
may preclude me from ever working at one of the Big Two. Lots of little
muscle-hatchlines seem to be in permanent vogue.
> > pencil-line-thickness,
>
> It's rather crude by the standards of today. Try to check out some
> professional pencilled pages, you can find them in various places
> online.
I think I see what you mean here. My stuff seems a little... layup-like,
rather than finishes-like?
> > facial expressions
>
> There's not really a very wide range on diplay and they aren't really
> very attractive. Thor should be heroically handsome. He's your leading
> man.
I know... (*sighs*). I had never drawn Thor before, not even just as
doodles. I was making him up as I went.
> > etc. While I love good
> > criticism, I'm not sure this letter was really written by someone who
looked
> > at my pages, but was just sent as some kind of standard rejection.
>
> If you got a reply at all then your pages have been looked at and
> considered.
Yes, that's the general consensus on this thread. Better than nothing, eh?
> >I can see valid criticism about clarity issues -- when Thor throws his
> >hammer, it's a little hard to see properly, but I think anatomy and
> >body language criticisms are less warranted.
>
> No your drawing still needs work in those areas.
>
> >So, anyway, my real question is (aside from a trolling for some
> >critiques), does Marvel just hand out stock rejection letters, or are
> >these pages just loaded with problems?
>
> The answer to both of those is yes I'm afraid. You show promise but your
> work isn't there yet. Keep at it but listen to feedback, especially from
> editors. They're the one that do the hiring and firing.
Ok. I will try at least one more time (with the proper Spidey script from
marvel.com). However, after looking at the Wolverine winner
(www.marvel.com/comics/yourman/archive/092801_talentwinner.htm), I'm
developing a suspicion that I may never have "what it takes" for Marvel.
I'm not a big fan of that art style (what I think of as a derivitave-Lifeld
style), and banging my head against a wall to refine my art in a direction
I'm not passionate about isn't going to work.
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll let y'all know when I've done the next
batch.
Robin Riggs
Thank you. Of all the work I've done so far this is the piece of which
I'm most proud.
--Robin.
Ralf Haring
<dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>> Homeless man (who up to this point had apparently been claiming to be
>> Heimdall) breaks down and confesses he's *not* Heimdall,
>
>Now that you mention it, this sounds familiar. If it was this latest
>run, I'll have to see what JR Jr did with it.
This segment was part of the story in v2 #1, if you're looking.
-Ralf Haring
"The mind must be the harder, the heart the keener,
the spirit the greater, as our strength grows less."
-Byrhtwold, The Battle of Maldon
Zombie Commando [raisinlove]
news:_j0A7.133506$vq.30...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> I did the Thor pencil test (for the contest a few months ago), and
received
> a very nice rejection note from Scott Elmer. It went into numerous
> criticisms as to where my weak spots were and so forth, but I got a
distinct
> "form letter" feeling from it. For instance, it criticized my anatomy,
> pencil-line-thickness, facial expressions, etc. While I love good
> criticism, I'm not sure this letter was really written by someone who
looked
> at my pages, but was just sent as some kind of standard rejection.
Wow, checked out your submissions and while it may not be of interest to
marvel, I hope you have non-superhero work as well. Your chunky/blocky
character shapes and faces remind me a bit of stuff like TMNT, illustrations
from the Palladium game books and other sci-fi related illustration and
comic works. If you dont have anything of your own creation, you should
consider it!!!
-steph
www.raisinlove.com
George H.W. Bush, as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party;
1987-AUG-27: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as
citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation
under God."
rezinluv @ gashed.com
webmaster @ drawnandquarterly.com
webmaster @ artoffact.com
webmaster @ elam.qc.ca
webmaster @ featuresonline.com
Christopher Basken
> marvel, I hope you have non-superhero work as well. Your chunky/blocky
> character shapes and faces remind me a bit of stuff like TMNT,
illustrations
> from the Palladium game books and other sci-fi related illustration and
> comic works. If you dont have anything of your own creation, you should
> consider it!!!
Thanks!
Actually, I do have my own project at www.animalkingdoms.com (writing,
pencils, and inks, but I'm not pleased with how the prologue got scrunched
down -- check out the blowup image on the FAQ page to see what the art will
look like in print), but I also know the realities of self-publishing these
days and I'm trying to diversify my sources of income (by day I'm a
programmer).