Wizard v. Overstreet Fan
Marc A. Leckstein
I keep reading here that Wizard's prices are highly inaccurate...
Personally, I've never bought Wizard and only deal with Overstreet.
Would someone who has access to both please give an example of the
two guides?
For instance, list a price of a book from Wizard and the price of
the same book from Overstreet's Fan.
thanks in advance,
-=marc=-
Jeff
Let's look at Youngblood for example.
In the March 1997 Wizard Price Guide
Youngblood (volume2) #11 2.50
#12 (double-sized) 3.50
#13 2.50
In the March 1997 Overstreet's Fan Price Guide
Youngblood (volume2) #11-13 there is no listing.
I guess it because these comics don't exist.
Same issues:
Wizard has a listing for Blindside #2-3
Fan does not.
Wizard Bloodhunter #1-2
Fan: none.
Wizard Bloodpool (Regular series, 1996-Current) #2-3 @2.50
Fan Bloodpool [correctly lists as] Special (May 1996) #1 2.50
no listing for 2 or 3. Do you know why? They never came out.
Therefore, Wizard in general is inacurate. They are supposed to acumulate
data from many reliable comic retailers and compile the info in their Price
guide. Either the retailers are fooling them, or they just don't do their
research.
Fan is by no means perfect. There are errors in their price guide, but they
seem to at least wait until a comic actually exists before telling the
general public that it is going up in price.
Jeff Mason
016...@axe.acadiau.ca
Brett George
> I keep reading here that Wizard's prices are highly inaccurate...
> Personally, I've never bought Wizard and only deal with Overstreet.
> Would someone who has access to both please give an example of the
> two guides?
> For instance, list a price of a book from Wizard and the price of
> the same book from Overstreet's Fan.
Overall the prices are not that dirrerent anymore. Each book places
different values on different titles for various reasons. (boy! was that
vague enough?) Fan has a reputation behind it of being the premiere price
guide for years. Once it sold to old so and so the prices started to
change a little. Now this is all just my opinion remember. I still value
Overstreet as a more accurate guide but Wizard is rapidly catching up. My
initial problem with Wizard was that it seemed to cater to that obscene
speculator crowd. Prices soared and dropped at a remarkable rate. They
still do, but not as much. To wrap this up, I use both GUIDES (remember,
these are only guides and may not reflect the market in your neck of the
woods) and average the difference. I believe this to be a fair way of
pricing. Supply and demand "hotness" play a part also. Overall, you need
to use common sense when pricing books. A little research never hurts
anyone. Accurate grading is more important that the guide you use anyway
and I still believe Overstreet to be the leader in that area.
For example; I priced my Daredevil collection with both guides. Wizard
came out higher, but only by $169.00.
Daredevil #1 Wiz-$1500/Fan-$1700
Batman #105 Wiz-$400/Fan-$415
x-Men #1-Wiz-$5000/Fan-$4500
Cry For Dawn #1-Wiz-$250/Fan-$225
Hope this rambling discourse helps!
brett
--
Brett George
Banzai Productions
Graphic Design & Illustration
Steven Williams
Marc A. Leckstein wrote:
>
>
> I keep reading here that Wizard's prices are highly inaccurate...
> Personally, I've never bought Wizard and only deal with Overstreet.
Overstreet is better than Wizard price guide wise.
>
> Would someone who has access to both please give an example of the
> two guides?
>
> For instance, list a price of a book from Wizard and the price of
> the same book from Overstreet's Fan.
Milk & Cheese #1 (1st print) (199?, Slave Labor Graphics):
Wizard NM price: $86.00 (or more by now)
Overstreet's FAN NM Price: $2.95
Evan Dorkin told me that Wizard's insane (or something to that effect)
How much does it sell for? Mile High Comics sells it at the Wizard
price. How many do they sell? Probably not too many.
I haven't seen it (recently) anywhere else. I did buy first prints of
#3 & #5 for $2.50 each just last week, Wizard lists those issues at
$26.00 and $12.00 (or around there, I haven't bought a Wizard for a few
months:).
How much would I pay for a first print of M&C #1? Probably $5.00 or less
in NM cond. But, y'know, I can get a current print of any M&C issue for
cover price, and this is what I'd probably do for #1, since I'm
interested in reading the comic, not selling it.
Best-
Steven Williams
swi...@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/vault/3524/index2.html
Francis A Uy
Marc A. Leckstein <mlec...@epix.net> wrote:
> I keep reading here that Wizard's prices are highly inaccurate...
There have been multiple verified incidents where "HOT" comics
were listed in the Wizard guide for several times their cover
price, before that comic had even been printed.
Overstreet accurately did not list those comics at all.
-F
.
PhilMateer
I've worked part-time for a local comics retailer for a number of
years, mostly pricing back issues, and I can tell you that Wizard is *not*
overpriced on most comics in relation to Overstreet Fan -- in fact, I'd
estimate that on over 50% of Silver Age and '70s Marvels and DCs, Wizard's
values are *less* than Overstreet's.
Wizard DOES tend to be higher-priced on current books, especially
"hot" ones -- but, many times, that seems to be because they track the
market a bit faster; Overstreet is usually about 2-3 issues behind them on
increasing the prices on "hot" books.
Wizard's accuracy is sometimes questioned, too, but I think this is
overstated -- their one sin (and it's a big one) is that they tend to be
overly optimistic about when a book is coming out -- they'll list it
before it actually exists, and then if it's delayed they have an
innacurate entry. With Image comics, of course, this can be a massive
problem...
My store (All About Books and Comics, in Phoenix) is an advisor to
both guides -- which means that once a month, we fill out a massive form
on price changes, major sales, "hot" books, etc. I have no idea how many
stores each 'zine uses in its surveys, or what kind of survey accuracy
they have (Pat, if you're out there, what *are* the numbers -- or is that
a secret?
Phil Mateer
Steven Williams
One of Wizard's mistakes is errors within the price guide. Example:
Hepcats #13, 14 are listed in the price guide; these two comics don't
exist. Hmmm...
Steven Williams
swi...@geocities.com
Alleigh
mlec...@epix.net (Marc A. Leckstein) wrote:
>
> I keep reading here that Wizard's prices are highly inaccurate...
>Personally, I've never bought Wizard and only deal with Overstreet.
>
> Would someone who has access to both please give an example of the
>two guides?
>
> For instance, list a price of a book from Wizard and the price of
>the same book from Overstreet's Fan.
> thanks in advance,
>
To me they both have books priced wrong, it is just different books.
Take DV8 for instance
Wizard
1- $2.50
1- Variant Kevin Nowlan $3.5
1 - Variant Jim Lee - $8.00
1 - all other variants - $3.50
Fan
1- $2.50
1 - Variant Jim Lee - $10.00
1 - all other variants - $5.00
X-Force #50 variant cover
Wizard - $6.00
and Fan - $15.00
Overstreet seems to price variants higher. Wizard is slowly getting
the prices to be more stable.
patdo...@aol.com
> My store (All About Books and Comics, in Phoenix) is an advisor to
>both guides -- which means that once a month, we fill out a massive form
>on price changes, major sales, "hot" books, etc. I have no idea how many
>stores each 'zine uses in its surveys, or what kind of survey accuracy
>they have (Pat, if you're out there, what *are* the numbers -- or is that
>a secret?
Since it's not in my bailiwick, I have no idea how many retailers participate in the monthly survey, but I've been told it's more than 100.
BTW, I'm glad to have an actual survey participant posting, so that people can't claim there is no survey.
Best, Pat
The words and opinions expressed are those of Patrick Daniel O'Neill and do not represent the opinions or policies of WIZARD: THE GUIDE TO COMICS.
The Icicle
In article <19970215152...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
patdo...@aol.com wrote:
> In article <19970213042...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
philm...@aol.com (PhilMateer) writes:
>
> > My store (All About Books and Comics, in Phoenix) is an advisor to
> >both guides -- which means that once a month, we fill out a massive form
> >on price changes, major sales, "hot" books, etc. I have no idea how many
> >stores each 'zine uses in its surveys, or what kind of survey accuracy
> >they have (Pat, if you're out there, what *are* the numbers -- or is that
> >a secret?
> Since it's not in my bailiwick, I have no idea how many retailers
participate in the monthly survey, but I've been told it's more than 100.
> BTW, I'm glad to have an actual survey participant posting, so that
people can't claim there is no survey.
>
I have the data you seek (or at least I have my word, you can take it
as best you can). About 6 months ago, Marty Stevey (Stevers?) contacted me
personally in due to a very similar thread running in
rec.arts.comics.marketplace. We had an extensive phone conversation at his
request, in which he took the oppurutnity to tell me how Wizard operates.
This is the deal:
Almost exactly 100 people are surveyed. These are dealers in fixed outlets
that participate in direct market retail. They are not always the same
ones and their is a fairly high degree of turnover because the retailers
burn out on all the paperwork. Each book is listed at NM only. The value
of lower priced books are not tracked. It is important to note that the
numbers provided in Wizard are a statistical estimate of what you would
pay if you walked in to average comic shop in America.
That said, I will divert into one of my favorite rants, namely Wizard
Sucks. Wizard sucks so mightily that the magnetic field of the Earth
fluctuates over Congers, New York.
If you are collecting comics and would like to have some estimate of their
value for trade or selling purposes, consider the following:
Wizard describes what dealers sell for, not what they buy for. That they
buy for relates only marginally to what they will sell for. For "hot"
title like Starman #0, Spider-Man #300, Avengers Annual #10, etc they
might give you 20% of what Wizard says. Most will give you a lot less. For
less than NM or non-"hot" books, you will get essentially zip. If you have
a box of recent books (~20 years or less) and you trundle into the dealers
to pawn them off, get ready for a shock. You will probably be offered ~10
cents each, dependent on age and condition. How can this be you might ask?
Wizard says these are worth $100's of dollars!!! The reason is this:
They are asking dealers what they would ask, not what they would pay. A
lot of dealers already have a few copies of all of those books and can't
move them. They cannot buy yours if they can't sell the ones they have at
"guide" price. Furthermore, for things like Preacher, Starman, The Justice
League of America, Kingdom Come and every other quasi-popular book put out
in the past decade, companies are making trade paperbacks. There is no
logic whatsoever is risking buying a book they may not sell, when the
company will reprint it in a form in which they can buy on known order and
resolicit if anyone else wants it. Between this and that slump in back
issues due to the speculator rush, your ability to sell to dealers is
pretty much obliterated. Ergo, using Wizard as an index of what *your*
books are worth is virtually worthless. To be fair, there are ways around
this. You can sell to other collectors yourself. What you will find in
very short order is what the dealers already know: The books aren't rare
and won't move for anywhere near what they first thought (and told
Wizard). You can probably do better than a dealer if you don't mind a
little extra work, but you
If you are collecting comics and would like to have some estimate of their
value for buying purposes, consider the following:
Wizard describes retail-dealer wish fulfilment on what they could get for
book X. Do you have to pay this outlandish price? Almost never. If you
walk into a shop and want to buy it without shopping around? Yes, then
you're stuck buying a book at Wizard price that you can never sell at
Wizard prices. If you want the book at a much cheaper price, there are
alternatives. First and foremost for this audience is the Internet. Put
together a want list and post it on rec.arts.comics.marketplace. This
almost never fails me (though admittedly, "Preacher" doesn't get anywhere
near my want list). Failing this, go to a con. Almost everything is there,
usually for half-price. Still can't get it? Read The Comics Buyer's
Guide. No, not their Price Guide, it's no better than the others. Read the
ads. Wizard reps will tell you that people in CBG are "panic" advertising.
They are in a pinch and need to move books so their prices are not
representative. I will tell you I have bought several books from "panic"
advertisers and there seem to be quite a few of them. If you're not
reading CBG, then you're not really collecting comics. Wizard does not
take into account a number of factors in buying comics: no private
collector dealers, no sales in retail outlets and no cons are included.
Just what an average dealer would sell the average customer on an average
day. Based on Wizard's data, I am forced to conclude the average consumer
is not queued in. Now you are.
D.
--
"Look! Up in the sky!"
Keeper of the Comic Archives
http://www.execpc.com/~icicle/main.html
Improving Golden and Silver Age comic collecting through information
patdo...@aol.com
>Wizard describes what dealers sell for, not what they buy for. That they
>buy for relates only marginally to what they will sell for. For "hot"
>title like Starman #0, Spider-Man #300, Avengers Annual #10, etc they
>might give you 20% of what Wizard says. Most will give you a lot less. For
>less than NM or non-"hot" books, you will get essentially zip. If you have
>a box of recent books (~20 years or less) and you trundle into the dealers
>to pawn them off, get ready for a shock. You will probably be offered ~10
>cents each, dependent on age and condition. How can this be you might ask?
>Wizard says these are worth $100's of dollars!!! The reason is this:
WIZARD does no such thing. WIZARD is a *price* guide, not a value
guide. It lists the average *price* a collector can expect to *pay* to
acquire a specific comic book at near-mint grade.
In that, it is no different from Overstreet's guide, which does the same
thing, but at two or more grade levels.
In fact, it is no different from the price guides in most other collectable
hobbies such as coins, stamps, dolls, toys, or whatever: They all list
the price a collector can expect to have to pay a reputable dealer for
the objects in question.
Lance Visser
In <icicle-1602...@yellowperch.execpc.com> ici...@execpc.com (The Icicle) writes:
+>wrong. You encourage this delusion to keep your sales up. The day
+>collectors realize that Wizard is feeding them false impressions of the
+>market, will be the day Wizard goes out of business, surely one of the
+>best days we would see for years.
I dont think its going to be collectors. I think the shops are
going to figure out that the things wizard (and CVM before) have been
encouraging for years have been self-destructive to the shops.
The back issue market nationally is in ruins. Its in ruins
because price has no relationship anymore to either demand or scarcity.
And the new-book speculation game can only go on so long. As soon
as people figure it out, the market crashes and shops go bust (as now).
The Icicle
In article <19970216201...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
patdo...@aol.com wrote:
> In article <icicle-1502...@goofy.execpc.com>, ici...@execpc.com
(The Icicle) writes:
>
> >Wizard describes what dealers sell for, not what they buy for. That they
> >buy for relates only marginally to what they will sell for. For "hot"
> >title like Starman #0, Spider-Man #300, Avengers Annual #10, etc they
> >might give you 20% of what Wizard says. Most will give you a lot less. For
> >less than NM or non-"hot" books, you will get essentially zip. If you have
> >a box of recent books (~20 years or less) and you trundle into the dealers
> >to pawn them off, get ready for a shock. You will probably be offered ~10
> >cents each, dependent on age and condition. How can this be you might ask?
> >Wizard says these are worth $100's of dollars!!! The reason is this:
>
> WIZARD does no such thing. WIZARD is a *price* guide, not a value
> guide. It lists the average *price* a collector can expect to *pay* to
> acquire a specific comic book at near-mint grade.
>
> In that, it is no different from Overstreet's guide, which does the same
> thing, but at two or more grade levels.
>
> In fact, it is no different from the price guides in most other collectable
> hobbies such as coins, stamps, dolls, toys, or whatever: They all list
> the price a collector can expect to have to pay a reputable dealer for
> the objects in question.
>
Mr. O'Neill, I want you to tell me you think your magazine and price
guide sells because fans are trying to figure what a dealer will charge
them. Can you do that honestly? Probably not, because it's not true. Your
magazine is being bought largely by fans that already have the books you
mag prices (except for the ones that don't exist yet) and aren't looking
to buy them. They are buying your mag because they think it is giving them
an accurate idea of what *their* books could be sold for, at what *price*
they could be sold for if you want to play semantics. Your magazine is to
comics what tobacco companies are to teen smoking: They give lip service
discouragement while fostering the illusion of acceptability. Your editors
know that kids are why they are buying this guide and you know they're
wrong. You encourage this delusion to keep your sales up. The day
collectors realize that Wizard is feeding them false impressions of the
market, will be the day Wizard goes out of business, surely one of the
best days we would see for years.
D.
The Icicle
In article <5e8jnl$e...@mikey.convex.com>, vis...@convex.com (Lance Visser)
wrote:
The dealers already know it. The bottom has dropped out of what dealers
are offering for books. There was a time when almost any collection of
comics was worth something. Now most are worth very little. It will be a
serious blow to the industry when this catches up because I don't think
the comics market will survive long without the collectors.
Nat Gertler
patdo...@aol.com wrote:
>
> WIZARD does no such thing. WIZARD is a *price* guide, not a value
> guide. It lists the average *price* a collector can expect to *pay* to
> acquire a specific comic book at near-mint grade.
Wizard has been known to refer to the prices in their guide as values.
For example, grabbing the nearest handy issue of Wizard (Sept 94),
the "Good & Cheap" section lists the total _value_ for the comics
being discussed. In the Market Watchers column, they refer to their
guide listings as being "value", "worth", and "market value".
Corey
Wasn't Wizard born during the speculation frenzy of the HOT !! Image and
Valiant titles (also around that time was the days of multiple covers).
Once Steve Geppi bought Overstreet, I feel that the Overstreet Price
Guide is less than objective. So, is there a objective price guide left
in the comic book market??
corey
patdo...@aol.com
>Mr. O'Neill, I want you to tell me you think your magazine and price
>guide sells because fans are trying to figure what a dealer will charge
>them. Can you do that honestly? Probably not, because it's not true. Your
>magazine is being bought largely by fans that already have the books you
>mag prices (except for the ones that don't exist yet) and aren't looking
>to buy them.
Actually, our readership surveys indicate that the majority of our
readers buy the magazine for the articles and the columns.
They like the price guide, but most would buy the mag without it. So why
do we keep the guide? Because there ARE Wizard purchasers who buy
it for the guide and we want to keep them around, too.
A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
shop is a steal or a rip-off?
patdo...@aol.com
>Once Steve Geppi bought Overstreet, I feel that the Overstreet Price
>Guide is less than objective. So, is there a objective price guide left
>in the comic book market??
There's no such thing in any collectable market. It will always be
subjective, because the grading of comics and other collectables is a
subjective matter: My good is your fair and somebody else's very good.
And, based on talk with Golden Age collectors from the '70s, Overstreet's
guide was never objective either. They tell tales of Bob low-balling the
prices on books he was looking to buy and high-balling them on books
he was looking to sell.
Nat Gertler
patdo...@aol.com wrote:
>
> A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
> your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
> what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
> buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
> conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
> you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
> shop is a steal or a rip-off?
The same way you'd know even if you had a price guide. The price guide
doesn't tell you that it's got $25 worth of reading in it. The price
guide doesn't tell you if you can find someone to buy it off of you
for $25. The price guide doesn't tell you whether you can actually get
it anywhere else for a lesser price, much less where you could get it.
The price guide certainly is not going to be able to tell you how much
thrill of ownership you will get out of it.
In fact, one likely effect from their being a price guide is to help
create a belief that these books have some sort of intrinsic value...
which has helped take what once would have been a "used comic" and
turn it into something that people will charge $25 for.
Lance Visser
In <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com> patdo...@aol.com writes:
+>A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
+>your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
+>what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
+>buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
+>conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
+>you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
+>shop is a steal or a rip-off?
We are already in this situation today. There is effectivly no
price guide today that reflects anything like real market conditions.
If you depend on Wizard or Fan to tell you how much to pay, you are going
to get robbed blind. The *honest* dealers are all selling at a discount from
wizard or fan. I don't see anyone paying the full price with the exception
of kids or ignorant adults being robbed.
The only way to get any *idea* of real prices is to go to lots
of local shops, spend lots of time on the floor at shows and watch
(now) the web/usenet sales activity.
David W. Stepp
In article <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
patdo...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Actually, our readership surveys indicate that the majority of our
> readers buy the magazine for the articles and the columns.
>
commentary.
A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
> your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
> what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
> buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
> conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
> you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
> shop is a steal or a rip-off?
>
A price guide is useful. I never pay what it says but some measure of
market health is needed. My own "index" of general health is how many
"panic" dealers I see in CBG and what kind of perctanges people bid on
PCEI. I will pay what is it worth to me. A NM Action #2 is not worth $1 to
me because I don't want it. Also, I look around to see roughly what people
are asking before I glom on. Shopping is everything and your book doesn't
bypass that function as a guide.
The second problem with Wizard is that it's monthly. In my experience,
only on crap books that rise and crash are monthly changes important.
Comics as collectibles are a slow-moving investment and an anuual change
is all that is important. If you are trying to catch waves of rising value
and ditch before crashing value, then you need a monthly guide but then
you're speculating, something Wizard supposedly discourages. Furthermore,
No one would buy Wizard every month if the price guide stayed the same for
every book for months on end. To make it interesting, Wizard and their
dealers are pressured, albeit perhaps subconsciously, to make something
change. It's human nature and Overstreet Fan is as much a victim of it as
Wizard.
The major problem is that your bosses know this true. They know the
kids are speculating and they allow it to go on. Ultimately, they get
their comeuppance and in the long run, that gives us all a black eye.
D.
bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu
In article <E5tKE...@midway.uchicago.edu>, jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu
(Jason Fliegel) wrote:
> In article <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> <patdo...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
> >your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
> >what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
> >buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
> >conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
> >you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
> >shop is a steal or a rip-off?
> >
>
> I would decide which I'd rather have: $25 or Goop-Boy #3.
>
> Which is what I'd do whether Goop-Boy #3 guides for $2.50, $25, or $250.
> Either I want the book $25 worth or I don't. If the only way I can get
> the book is by paying $25, then I have to pay $25 if I want the book.
This is exactly the right philosophy (IMO). The value is only what you
value the book.
Just today, I read the Don Rosa interview from TCJ which I found on the
web. He highlights this very problem with price guides from his
perspective of being an acquitance of Overstreet in the early era of the
price guide. He has some strong comments lamenting the influence of
guides.
B. Martin
Nat Gertler
David W. Stepp wrote:
>
> In article <3309E6...@worldnet.att.net>, nat.g...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> > The same way you'd know even if you had a price guide. The price guide
> > doesn't tell you that it's got $25 worth of reading in it. The price
> > guide doesn't tell you if you can find someone to buy it off of you
> > for $25. The price guide doesn't tell you whether you can actually get
> > it anywhere else for a lesser price, much less where you could get it.
> > The price guide certainly is not going to be able to tell you how much
> > thrill of ownership you will get out of it.
>
> period. All of things you mentioned determine that the book is worth that
> since people will pay that much (roughly) to get it.
But the price guide doesn't tell you what people would pay. It tells
you what some people _might_ charge, if they had the book. And it's
circular--by putting the price in the book, it becomes what many stores
charge.
David W. Stepp
In article <3309E6...@worldnet.att.net>, nat.g...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> The same way you'd know even if you had a price guide. The price guide
> doesn't tell you that it's got $25 worth of reading in it. The price
> guide doesn't tell you if you can find someone to buy it off of you
> for $25. The price guide doesn't tell you whether you can actually get
> it anywhere else for a lesser price, much less where you could get it.
> The price guide certainly is not going to be able to tell you how much
> thrill of ownership you will get out of it.
That's not entirely true, at least for books published in the pre-glut
period. All of things you mentioned determine that the book is worth that
since people will pay that much (roughly) to get it.
>
> In fact, one likely effect from their being a price guide is to help
> create a belief that these books have some sort of intrinsic value...
> which has helped take what once would have been a "used comic" and
> turn it into something that people will charge $25 for.
This is much more a problem when you are reporting noise in the system.
By giving these short-term changes attention, Wizard dignifies them and
give them a significance they don't deserve. A temporary maldistribution
becomes a "trend" for a few months and then said book crashes into the
quarterbox. *That* is the perception problem Wizard offers. The fact
remains, that most pre-glut books are to some degree collectible and
should be. It doesn't serve collecting however, to abuse people with
erroneous impressions about the market.
D.
Jason Fliegel
In article <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<patdo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
>your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
>what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
>buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
>conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
>you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
>shop is a steal or a rip-off?
>
I would decide which I'd rather have: $25 or Goop-Boy #3.
Which is what I'd do whether Goop-Boy #3 guides for $2.50, $25, or $250.
Either I want the book $25 worth or I don't. If the only way I can get
the book is by paying $25, then I have to pay $25 if I want the book.
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
Formerly jb...@virginia.edu
The Icicle
In article <330A4B...@worldnet.att.net>, nat.g...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> But the price guide doesn't tell you what people would pay. It tells
> you what some people _might_ charge, if they had the book. And it's
> circular--by putting the price in the book, it becomes what many stores
> charge.
Yes, but in theory, if dealers didn't feel compelled to say something
every month, many might say nothing and at the end of the year be more
objective and ergo more accurate in what the books are actually worth.
Under such conditions, a price guide would be useful.
michael kelly
patdo...@aol.com writes:
|> In article <icicle-1602...@yellowperch.execpc.com>, ici...@execpc.com (The Icicle) writes:
|> A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
|> your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
|> what a fair price is?
Like any other market (of fixed quantity items), price ought to reflect
relative availability. If I can find 30 copies of Swamp Thing #51, I'll
choose the best bargain. If all seem overpriced, then I won't buy any of
them. If overpriced (IMO) books sell despite my refusal to buy, it's
just that I'm not part of that particular market.
As a fer instance: If I go into a used book store and pop over to the
cooking section, I don't expect that the _Joy of Cooking_ to be very
expensive: a) It's continually in print, b) there are millions of
copies floating around, c) it's a crappy cookbook but everyone thinks
they need one.
Now, if I see a copy of Older and Sherman's _Soup and Bread_, and it
is priced anything under $20 I'll pick it without flinching: a) it
is long out-of-print, b) it's from a relatively small print run and
c) it is a great collection of recipes.
|> Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
|> buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
|> conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
|> you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
|> shop is a steal or a rip-off?
You can only take comic collecting as seriously as the amount of
time you put into it. This is no different than buying wine, purchasing
art, attending the theater, or dining on gourmet meals. If you don't
develop discriminating tastes, and learn to properly budget yourself,
you *aren't* going to enjoy your hobby.
If collecting comics is a $5K a year proposition for you because you
are buying lot's of $25 comics, then *I* think you are wasting both
your time and money. You would have much more fun spending $100-$200
to attend a 3-day convention to shop in the $0.25 boxes.
There's a reason obsessed collectors turn up as villians so often...
--
+ Mike Kelly, University of Michigan Department of Physics +
+ +
+ Oh, and never mind the words, just hum along and keep on going. +
+ - Ian Anderson +
Mike Chary
>As a fer instance: If I go into a used book store and pop over to the
>cooking section, I don't expect that the _Joy of Cooking_ to be very
>expensive: a) It's continually in print, b) there are millions of
>copies floating around, c) it's a crappy cookbook but everyone thinks
>they need one.
It's a terrific cookbook. If I were going to adapt a cookbook to comic
book form this would be my first choice. In fact, it almost *is* a comic
book with all the illustrations it has. Why do I like it? Because it has
basic recipes, basic instructions and lots of them. If you already know
how to cook and have lots of other cookbooks, the recipes are pretty
standard and the instructions won't help you, *but* if you *don't* know
how to cook, the instructions along with the ample illustrations will
help you. This feature is why I think it would make a good, if huge,
comic book. They could be even more explicite with the illustrations. And
if people haven't made something before, the recxipes in JoC are standard
enough that this is the place to start, and there are so many you are
bound to find what you are looking for.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an
inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever
affects one directly, affects all indirectly." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
srowe...@aol.com
>n <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com> patdo...@aol.com writes:
>
>+>A question for you: If you were looking for some books to fill holes in
>+>your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
>+>what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
>+>buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
>+>conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
>+>you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
>+>shop is a steal or a rip-off?
I'm showing my age here, but... I bought back issues for many years before Overstreet came out with his price guide. We determined prices by figuring out how much it's worth to us.
Steven Rowe
BPE...@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu
In article <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
the comic (or other collectible) in question is "worth" the asking price to
YOU. Any other person's opinion doesn't matter. If you're buying to invest
then you might be interested in future value, but otherwise it merely a case
of whether or not YOU want to pay what is asked.
If price guides were efficient at reporting actual SALE prices, both on avg
and regionally, then I would hold them in higher regard. As it is though,
they are at best approximations of what dealers were ASKING recently. And
of course, the mags and guides have an interest in rising prices because
it creates an excitement which generates future sales of price information.
Having a price guide is useful for most dealers since it gives them some
validity when challenged on a price by a customer. They can always fall
back on the guide to justify their price (unless they want more of course -
then they say the guide is off). And to be honest, I really don't know the
relative values of thousands of comics, and the lazy way out is to just
depend on the guide to fairly accurate. If enough people believe the guide,
then it becomes real. And for most of us, that's good enough. Its not the
Bible however.
BrianPerry/Fat Cat Books
John Gaddis
Mike Chary wrote:
> It's a terrific cookbook. If I were going to adapt a cookbook to comic
> book form this would be my first choice. In fact, it almost *is* a comic
> book with all the illustrations it has. Why do I like it? Because it has
> basic recipes, basic instructions and lots of them. If you already know
> how to cook and have lots of other cookbooks, the recipes are pretty
> standard and the instructions won't help you, *but* if you *don't* know
> how to cook, the instructions along with the ample illustrations will
> help you. This feature is why I think it would make a good, if huge,
> comic book. They could be even more explicite with the illustrations. And
> if people haven't made something before, the recxipes in JoC are standard
> enough that this is the place to start, and there are so many you are
> bound to find what you are looking for.
All I know is, it's not so basic that it could help me. I try to look up
a simple thing like different ways you can cook eggs and wind up with
something bizarre like wine-soaked yolks stuffed with brie and salmon's
eyes, or a huge diagram of all the places on a cow you get different
kinds of steaks from. Can't make head or tail of the thing... I'll just
wait for Scott McCloud's Understanding Cooking.
David
michael kelly
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
|> >As a fer instance: If I go into a used book store and pop over to the
|> >cooking section, I don't expect that the _Joy of Cooking_ to be very
|> >expensive: a) It's continually in print, b) there are millions of
|> >copies floating around, c) it's a crappy cookbook but everyone thinks
|> >they need one.
|>
|> It's a terrific cookbook. If I were going to adapt a cookbook to comic
|> book form this would be my first choice. In fact, it almost *is* a comic
|> book with all the illustrations it has.
Hey, illustrations <> comics! (Sorry, I couldn't resist this antediluvian
r.a.comics thread....)
|> Why do I like it? Because it has
|> basic recipes, basic instructions and lots of them. If you already know
|> how to cook and have lots of other cookbooks, the recipes are pretty
|> standard and the instructions won't help you, *but* if you *don't* know
|> how to cook, the instructions along with the ample illustrations will
|> help you. This feature is why I think it would make a good, if huge,
|> comic book.
I think a cookbook with a good narrative, say Margaret Rudkin's _Pepperidge
Farm Cookbook_, would be much better suited for comics. There are plenty of
characters (Her, her husband, her children, the assistant bakers) and there
is even a sort of quest (gluten-free bread). Besides, just imagine the
page numbers in tiny ballons the shape of those cheesy goldfish.
|> They could be even more explicite with the illustrations. And
|> if people haven't made something before, the recxipes in JoC are standard
|> enough that this is the place to start, and there are so many you are
|> bound to find what you are looking for.
But is banality really what we are looking for in a comic? I say "NO!"
Even a Campbell's soup comic featuring the Campbell's Kids(tm) would
be far superior to a _Joy of Cooking_ comic. I do suggest that the
Campbell's Kids(tm) be given the "Sugar & Spike" treatment, after all,
how many recipes for "green bean casserole" does Campbell's think we
need?
I can imagine what a _JoC_ cookbook-comic would be like:
"Holy souffle Don Gasteaux! Some brown sauce (ED: recipe given in
_JoC_ #12) will go great with this Saurbraten. (ED: recipe last seen
in _JoC_ #22)"
"That's right, Sue Chef, Now it's time for some of your Spaeztel (ED:
featured last issue!) and Quarter Century Cabbage! (ED: See _JoC_
#15's letter column!).
damonspotting
Jason Fliegel wrote:
>
> In article <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> <patdo...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >your collection, and there were no price guides, how would you know
> >what a fair price is? Assuming you don't have an unlimited budget for
> >buying comics and traveling around the country to other cities or
> >conventions to compare prices before making a purchase, how would
> >you know whether the $25 for GOOP-BOY #3 being asked at your local
> >shop is a steal or a rip-off?
> >
>
just for the record, goop boy #3 guides at about 75$ now, since the
sidekick introduced in that issue [snot kid] has become popular
with the collector crowd ever since ellis took over the title.
> Which is what I'd do whether Goop-Boy #3 guides for $2.50, $25, or $250.
> Either I want the book $25 worth or I don't. If the only way I can get
> the book is by paying $25, then I have to pay $25 if I want the book.
i think goop boy #3 is worth it--
where else have you seen such sharp insight into the nature
of american society represented in clever Allegory?
and, to top it all off, the fight with phlegmaniac was priceless,
tasteless, and sopping.
--
"I think there's one political party in the country [now]-
the Republocrats." Micheal Moore.
Kevin J. Maroney
bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
>> I would decide which I'd rather have: $25 or Goop-Boy #3.
>>
>> Which is what I'd do whether Goop-Boy #3 guides for $2.50, $25, or $250.
>> Either I want the book $25 worth or I don't. If the only way I can get
>> the book is by paying $25, then I have to pay $25 if I want the book.
>
>This is exactly the right philosophy (IMO). The value is only what you
>value the book.
That's only trivially true. If a reliable, or even vaguely useful,
price guide exists, it can tell you whether you're likely to find a
copy of Goop-Boy #3 for $2.50 across town.
Do you think that just because a price guide lists something at $25,
some people feel a physical compusion to spend $25 on it?
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Jason Fliegel
In article <330cd063...@news.crossover.com>,
Kevin J. Maroney <kmar...@crossover.com> wrote:
>bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
>
>>> I would decide which I'd rather have: $25 or Goop-Boy #3.
>>>
>>> Which is what I'd do whether Goop-Boy #3 guides for $2.50, $25, or $250.
>>> Either I want the book $25 worth or I don't. If the only way I can get
>>> the book is by paying $25, then I have to pay $25 if I want the book.
>>
>>This is exactly the right philosophy (IMO). The value is only what you
>>value the book.
>
>That's only trivially true. If a reliable, or even vaguely useful,
>price guide exists, it can tell you whether you're likely to find a
>copy of Goop-Boy #3 for $2.50 across town.
But in Pat's example, I have no way to go to other shops or conventions.
It's either the shop by my house that's selling the book for $25 or
nothing. In that respect, it really doesn't matter if the shop across
town is giving 'em away for free -- in Pat's example, I can't get the book
anywhere but at my shop.
>
>Do you think that just because a price guide lists something at $25,
>some people feel a physical compusion to spend $25 on it?
>
I think there are people who wouldn't think twice about buying a book for
$25 if it guides for $40, yet wouldn't buy that same book at that same
price if the guide said it was only worth $15.
Supply and demand, when aggregated, can help you determine an equilibrium
price for a given commodity. But unless you know where on the demand
curve you lie, you don't know whether you want to buy the book at the
equilibrium price. And if the equilibrium price is $25, but I'm willing
to pay $100 for the book, the difference between the store that sells the
book for $30 and the store that sells it for $50 is the difference between
a $70 consumer surplus for me and a $50 consumer surplus for me. Either
way, though, I buy the book.
The Icicle
In article <E5xLq...@midway.uchicago.edu>, jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu
(Jason Fliegel) wrote:
>
> But in Pat's example, I have no way to go to other shops or conventions.
> It's either the shop by my house that's selling the book for $25 or
> nothing. In that respect, it really doesn't matter if the shop across
> town is giving 'em away for free -- in Pat's example, I can't get the book
> anywhere but at my shop.
Yet that example is kind of a ridiculous example. For the books Wizard
hypes, you would be hard pressed not to trip over them. I would be willing
to be at least 50% of comic collectors have access to the Internet and
CBG. You can find almost anything there. If Wizard is the guide of "what
would you pay if we could convince you this was the only copy you would
ever be able to get" prices, then it will only apply to the most gullible
and ignorant. Come to think of it...
> Supply and demand, when aggregated, can help you determine an equilibrium
> price for a given commodity. But unless you know where on the demand
> curve you lie, you don't know whether you want to buy the book at the
> equilibrium price. And if the equilibrium price is $25, but I'm willing
> to pay $100 for the book, the difference between the store that sells the
> book for $30 and the store that sells it for $50 is the difference between
> a $70 consumer surplus for me and a $50 consumer surplus for me. Either
> way, though, I buy the book.
>
I don't think it works that way. Almost everyone functions to some
degree at a cost benefit level. No one who buys a comic for $100 is going
to read it (besides me) and even I would balk if I thought I was paying
$100 for a quick read. Back when the price guides were quasi-reliable, you
could figure you would get half what ever that guide said from a reputable
dealer or other collector. So, if I thought a book that costs $40 I could
turn around for $20 at least, or if I waited 2-3 years, $30, then it only
costs me $10 to read it and have it for a few years. If I waited a little
longer yet, I might get my money back or maybe a little profit. In
essence, I could read older comics for free. Now, since the guides are so
distorted you have to basically guess and I don't think anyone wants to
eat $100 just to read a story. Rather than guess, the just don't buy.
Brett George
> bma...@utmem1.utmem.edu wrote:
>
> >> I would decide which I'd rather have: $25 or Goop-Boy #3.
> >>
> >> Which is what I'd do whether Goop-Boy #3 guides for $2.50, $25, or $250.
> >> Either I want the book $25 worth or I don't. If the only way I can get
> >> the book is by paying $25, then I have to pay $25 if I want the book.
> >
> >This is exactly the right philosophy (IMO). The value is only what you
> >value the book.
>
> That's only trivially true. If a reliable, or even vaguely useful,
> price guide exists, it can tell you whether you're likely to find a
> copy of Goop-Boy #3 for $2.50 across town.
>
> Do you think that just because a price guide lists something at $25,
> some people feel a physical compusion to spend $25 on it?
Yes! And if you keep it up I'll give you $35 for it!
--
Brett George
Banzai Productions
Graphic Design & Illustration
Kory Yorke
dst...@post.its.mcw.edu (David W. Stepp) wrote:
>In article <19970218143...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>patdo...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Actually, our readership surveys indicate that the majority of our
>> readers buy the magazine for the articles and the columns.
>>
> And teen-agers read Playboy for the insightful humor and political
>commentary.
That's why I read it. Wizard that is. I don't care about the price
guide at all.
Kory Yorke
Eric Tolle
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) wrote:
>It's a terrific cookbook. If I were going to adapt a cookbook to comic
>book form this would be my first choice. In fact, it almost *is* a comic
>book with all the illustrations it has. Why do I like it? Because it has
Illustrations? Joy of Cooking has Illustrations? My paperback copies
have no illustrations except for a few line drawing of utensils and
such....
Are you sure you're not talking about Joy of Sex? I hear it's aboutto
be brought out by the same peoplewho did 'Lady Death'...
;')
Eric Tolle unde...@rain.org
"And then there was Cespinarve Rogue, who ate
cities..." Thieves and Kings, #13
Bradly E. Peterson
unde...@rain.org (Eric Tolle) done said this here deal:
>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) wrote:
>>It's a terrific cookbook. If I were going to adapt a cookbook to comic
>>book form this would be my first choice. In fact, it almost *is* a comic
>>book with all the illustrations it has. Why do I like it? Because it has
>Illustrations? Joy of Cooking has Illustrations? My paperback copies
>have no illustrations except for a few line drawing of utensils and
>such....
>Are you sure you're not talking about Joy of Sex? I hear it's aboutto
>be brought out by the same peoplewho did 'Lady Death'...
>;')
Actually, no... heh... I've got the illustrated version. It
was under the title "The New Joy Of Sex". The illustrations are
by an artist named (I believe) Mitchell Beasley. It was
tastefully done either with colored pencils or pastel crayon. As
educational erotica goes, it's quite good. It discusses in
detail, various sexual practices and shows them as well.
I purchased it easily and without having to show my I.D., at a
comic convention (Dallas Fantasy Fair). It was protected by the
First Amendment.
I also purchased copies of "Flowers On The Razorwire" (I forget
the number) and "Chaos Magazine" (Not from Brian Pulido & CHAOS!
Comics). Both of these comics were purchased at a CBLDF booth,
from DeAnne Dewitt (Writer/Publisher, Chaos Mag.) & Keith J.
Pannell (Writer/Creator - Perry & Dave). These books were
involved in cases where comic shops had been busted for selling
adult titles to adults. These books contained one badly drawn
depiction of oral sex per book. Apparently, the police seemed to
think that those books were not protected by the First Amendment.
Just an observation...
Spread Love, Play Nice, Read Comics!!!
Bradly E. Peterson (marv...@barefactsbbs.com)
Psychodrama Press
"I stared long and hard into the abyss...
... and saw myself staring back"
"Great spirits have always encountered
violent opposition from mediocre minds"
(Albert Einstein)
Eric Tolle
marv...@barefactsbbs.com (Bradly E. Peterson) wrote:
>unde...@rain.org (Eric Tolle) done said this here deal:
>>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) wrote:
>>Illustrations? Joy of Cooking has Illustrations? My paperback copies
>>have no illustrations except for a few line drawing of utensils and
>>such....
>>Are you sure you're not talking about Joy of Sex? I hear it's aboutto
>>be brought out by the same peoplewho did 'Lady Death'...
>Actually, no... heh... I've got the illustrated version. It
>was under the title "The New Joy Of Sex". The illustrations are
>by an artist named (I believe) Mitchell Beasley. It was
>tastefully done either with colored pencils or pastel crayon. As
>educational erotica goes, it's quite good. It discusses in
Very sixties, was my thought. Tehn again, if I had a choice between
exposing a child to 'Joy ofSex', and say, 'Silk Stockings' or Outlaw,
or MTV, I would choose the former....
>I also purchased copies of "Flowers On The Razorwire" (I forget
(deleate)
>adult titles to adults. These books contained one badly drawn
>depiction of oral sex per book. Apparently, the police seemed to
>think that those books were not protected by the First Amendment.
I supose they were applying the 'no redeeming value' argument- which
is a bizzare judgement call if there ever was one. Then again, they
may simply have disliked the artwork.
Then again, if we applied the 'no redeeming value' idea to all comics,
just think of how many would be gone from the shelves...
Eric Tolle unde...@rain.org
"An' then Chi...@little.com, he come scramblin outta the
terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's
crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Andrew Black
On 19 Feb 1997 14:38:15 GMT, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike
Chary) wrote:
>It's a terrific cookbook. If I were going to adapt a cookbook to comic
>book form this would be my first choice. In fact, it almost *is* a comic
>book with all the illustrations it has. Why do I like it? Because it has
>basic recipes, basic instructions and lots of them. If you already know
>how to cook and have lots of other cookbooks, the recipes are pretty
>standard and the instructions won't help you, *but* if you *don't* know
>how to cook, the instructions along with the ample illustrations will
>help you. This feature is why I think it would make a good, if huge,
>comic book. They could be even more explicite with the illustrations. And
>if people haven't made something before, the recxipes in JoC are standard
>enough that this is the place to start, and there are so many you are
>bound to find what you are looking for.
I'd actually plop for the comicization of 'La Technique' and 'La
Methode', which start off with ultra-basic tasks (how to peel onions,
how to sharpen knives) through to techniques with a far higher degree
of difficulty (making sugar flowers for decorations).
The only problem being that a mega-maxi-series would be called for
(maybe 5 or 6 phone books worth). Of course, they could always make it
an on-going series. :)
Cheers,
Andrew Black abl...@melbpc.org.au
----
GENE LARKIN: "While attending Columbia, he broke all of Lou Gehrig's
records. We're not sure if they were Louis Armstrong 78's or that
Gilbert & Sullivan collection that Larrupin' Lou loved so much."
from the '1992 Rotisserie League Baseball handbook.'