[META] What is failing here?
Marc Fleury
1) My newsserver
2) My memory
3) The quantity of discussion in this group?
Seems like there's a lot less traffic than there was just a few months
ago. I haven't found this with the other groups that I read.
--
Marc.
aa #1971
Raisinlove // forward
> ago. I haven't found this with the other groups that I read.
Hell I`d bring up some discussion here but no one else seems much interested
in underground (where are all the creators and self-publishers?) and
alternative comics (the kind I enjoy anyway).
All the marvel, dc and even dark horse threads bore me senseless..
-steph
www.raisinlove.com
webmaster @ drawnandquarterly.com
webmaster @ artoffact.com
webmaster @ elam.qc.ca
webmaster @ featuresonline.com
Doug Tonks
Marvel's turned hot all of a sudden (OK, it's been getting hot for a couple of
years now), and DC's got a buzz going with the new "Smallville" show. People
just aren't talking as much about comics outside of the Big Two (actually,
outside of the Big Two universes--Wildstorm and ABC aren't generating much,
either). There's some interesting smaller press stuff coming out (though it
seems that the volume is less than it's been over the last couple of
years--that's just a feeling, though, as I haven't really gone back to count),
but it's just not generating a lot of talk.
What are some comics and/or topics you'd like to see us talk about?
--Doug Tonks
_____
Teaching AIDS--a book for parents and teachers
AIDS Prevention Education
http://www.mtsu.edu/~hytonks/aidsbook.html
Carl Henderson
news:9un35s$9gnb4$1...@ID-75711.news.dfncis.de:
>> Seems like there's a lot less traffic than there was just a few months
>> ago. I haven't found this with the other groups that I read.
>
> Hell I`d bring up some discussion here but no one else seems much
> interested in underground (where are all the creators and
> self-publishers?) and alternative comics (the kind I enjoy anyway).
> All the marvel, dc and even dark horse threads bore me senseless..
The best solution to that is to start such a discussion. I'm one of the
more "hardcore superhero fans" on RAC.misc, and I even have at least a
dozen B&W alternative-type comics I buy on a regular basis (or as TPBs).
I suspect there would be more interest that you anticipate.
How about a "If RAC.alternative were still around, would KNIGHTS OF THE
DINNER TABLE be on-topic there?" :)
--
Carl Henderson carl.he...@airmail.net
Top 300 Report Archive http://j_carl_henderson.tripod.com/
RAC/RACM FAQ http://www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
Doug Tonks
>Marc Fleury (marcf...@home.com) wrote:
>
>Marvel's turned hot all of a sudden (OK, it's been getting hot for a couple
>of
>years now), and DC's got a buzz going with the new "Smallville" show. People
>just aren't talking as much about comics outside of the Big Two (actually,
>outside of the Big Two universes--Wildstorm and ABC aren't generating much,
>either). There's some interesting smaller press stuff coming out (though it
>seems that the volume is less than it's been over the last couple of
>years--that's just a feeling, though, as I haven't really gone back to
>count),
>but it's just not generating a lot of talk.
>
>What are some comics and/or topics you'd like to see us talk about?
Actually, Marc Fleury didn't write any of that--it's all me. Somehow I started
to quote him and then didn't left his actual words out. Sorry.
Raisinlove // forward
news:DC71736A59145316.8806B4F4...@lp.airnews.net...
> The best solution to that is to start such a discussion. I'm one of the
> more "hardcore superhero fans" on RAC.misc, and I even have at least a
> dozen B&W alternative-type comics I buy on a regular basis (or as TPBs).
> I suspect there would be more interest that you anticipate.
I tried to bring up Boneyard Press but to no avail. How about the original
Deadworld series, Caliber comics, some of the Slave Labour books or any
gritty underground stuff. Any fans of Gwar comics? The old Last Gasp zombie
stuff?
Carl Henderson
> I tried to bring up Boneyard Press but to no avail. How about the
> original Deadworld series, Caliber comics, some of the Slave Labour
> books or any gritty underground stuff. Any fans of Gwar comics? The old
> Last Gasp zombie stuff?
I liked SQUEE, I FEEL SICK, and JONNY THE HOMICIDAL maniac. Unfortunately,
for me, animation pays a lot better for Johan Vasquez. (I skipped FILLER
BUNNY--not enough value for the money, and chances are it will be in a TPB
down the road.) From Slave Labor/Amaze Ink, I also like CHARM SCHOOL and
PRIVATE BEACH.
Jeff Novotny
> Marvel's turned hot all of a sudden (OK, it's been getting hot for a couple of
> years now), and DC's got a buzz going with the new "Smallville" show. People
> just aren't talking as much about comics outside of the Big Two (actually,
> outside of the Big Two universes--Wildstorm and ABC aren't generating much,
> either). There's some interesting smaller press stuff coming out (though it
> seems that the volume is less than it's been over the last couple of
> years--that's just a feeling, though, as I haven't really gone back to count),
> but it's just not generating a lot of talk.
I was kind of thinking the same thing. All the action has gone back to
the super-hero market lately. And I'm not very interested in
super-heroes. Marvel has really swallowed up all the talented creators
(and the shelf space :P). Contrast this to the mid 90s when there was so
much going on in self-published and indy comics. It's difficult to have
discussions when there is so little to discuss.
There's not much going on at Vertigo. There are not many interesting
titles at Dark Horse. Fantagraphics barely publishes anything. With a
few exceptions, the current crop of manga titles is quite weak.
And most of the indy books that are really good are also fairly well
known and well-established. It's great to have old faves like LOVE &
ROCKETS, BONE, SiP, THIEVES & KINGS, CASTLE WAITING, FINDER, GD, etc.
around, but there is not much talk about these titles because everyone
knows about them. Really, I should go back and re-read some of these
from the start and maybe discuss them as a whole story.
One new title that has really impressed me is RED STAR! Does anyone else
like this too?
Best;
Jeff
Bala Menon
news:3C102E20...@sympatico.ca...
> One new title that has really impressed me is RED STAR!
> Does anyone else like this too?
Yep. A lot. But I'm sticking to the trades from now on,
since they're way neater than the monthly issues.
--
Bala Menon (b.m...@att.net)
Christopher Basken
interested
> in underground (where are all the creators and self-publishers?) and
> alternative comics (the kind I enjoy anyway).
*waves*
My book is still at the printer, so it's kinda hard to discuss it with
anyone. Gimme a couple weeks.
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
nw
the vibe of this group. Anyway, I'm going to print at least one comic
series and if it goes well I have another two that I'd like to do as well.
If that goes well I'll probably take the whole thing on and start publishing
other books as well. But I want to avoid "Big 2" syndrome which is what I
think caused many of the problems at Image (similar characters, storylines,
etc. *yawn*).
So to generate some discussion what do you look for from a small
publisher/indie outfit? How important is artwork and how should the art
compare to the writing? Are there particular styles that would be good? Is
color important? What are your ideas? A big part of why I want to do this
is that I have only seen a few titles worth reading in the last two years...
And so I've drifted from the scene. I feel very out of touch and any
feedback would be much appreciated.
-Rand
"Marc Fleury" <marcf...@home.com> wrote in message
news:935u0u47rjbj1si01...@4ax.com...
Johanna Draper Carlson
> From Slave Labor/Amaze Ink, I also like CHARM SCHOOL and PRIVATE BEACH.
I'm hoping for another CHARM SCHOOL issue at some point -- is she soliciting
when she's done, do you happen to know?
Slave Labor does some great work, but they don't always publicize their work
enough.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: December Previews, Reviews of Catwoman, JLA, Avengers
Johanna Draper Carlson
> most of the indy books that are really good are also fairly well
> known and well-established.
I wish I believed that great indies were as well-known as they deserved to
be. I'm not sure some of the books you name, like Castle Waiting and Finder,
are that widely read.
To maybe spark some discussion, here are some good books that started in
this last year:
Slow News Day
True Story Swear to God
Atlas
Noble Causes
Hopeless Savages
Amelia Rules
Mad Science
Teenagers from Mars
Forbidden Book
Sandwalk Adventures
Some new miniseries:
Private Beach
Little White Mouse
Blue Monday
Alison Dare
Xeno's Arrow
Sheba
Scary Godmother
> Really, I should go back and re-read some of these
> from the start and maybe discuss them as a whole story.
Good idea!
Johanna Draper Carlson
> what do you look for from a small publisher/indie outfit?
Intriguing story that's not too cliche or derivative, professional art that
supports the story well, responsible business plan (not that that's any of
my business -- I just want to feel like that if I like a book there's a
chance it will stick around), good format and design.
> Are there particular styles that would be good?
I'm not wedded to any one thing in particular.
> Is color important?
Not to me, but it does make it easier to sell into some markets.
Carl Henderson
news:B836E089.579D6%joh...@comicsworthreading.com:
> Carl Henderson at carl.he...@airmail.net wrote:
>
>> From Slave Labor/Amaze Ink, I also like CHARM SCHOOL and PRIVATE
>> BEACH.
>
> I'm hoping for another CHARM SCHOOL issue at some point -- is she
> soliciting when she's done, do you happen to know?
I seem to remember from the column in the last issue, that she's holding
down a full-time job as a Disney animator, and CHARM SCHOOL has to fit in
her non-work time. It may be a while.
> Slave Labor does some great work, but they don't always publicize their
> work enough.
Probably a case of not enough money. But they really do need a good
internet representative.
Bob Heer
> I tried to bring up Boneyard Press but to no avail. How about the original
> Deadworld series, Caliber comics, some of the Slave Labour books or any
> gritty underground stuff. Any fans of Gwar comics? The old Last Gasp zombie
> stuff?
If you really want to start a discussion, you'll have better luck
starting it with something more substantial than "Does anyone here
read [insert name of book/company]?". Say something about the book,
ask questions about it, discuss plot or character issues, whatever.
Doesn't have to be a formal "review", doesn't even have to be all that
insightful, but just a sample of they discussion you'd like to see
more of. No promises that that'll lead to any more discussion, and if
it doesn't you might feel like you're talking to an empty room, but
you really aren't, but at the very worst you'll make someone stop for
an extra second over that book next time they see it in a store or in
a catalog, and maybe consider picking it up.
Slave Labor has published some nice stuff over the years. Scott
Roberts' PATTY CAKE is one of my favourite current comics (post about
Roberts' CLICK TRACK, through another publisher, will probably be
posted within the next week or so), and I really like the collections
they've recently published of Roberts' self-published issues, and I
almost always have time for anything Evan Dorkin, Scott Saavedra or
Jon Hastings put out, among others.
Bob Heer - www.geocities.com/bobheer
--
My battle suit is the ultimate product of Canadian technology.
nw
news:B836E2DA.579D8%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
> nw at rmcc...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > what do you look for from a small publisher/indie outfit?
>
> Intriguing story that's not too cliche or derivative, professional art
that
> supports the story well,
What about Sandman where the art was often odd or downright horrible, but
the story kept you reading. Not that I'm Niel Gaimen, but was that series a
fluke or could that work again?
> responsible business plan (not that that's any of
> my business -- I just want to feel like that if I like a book there's a
> chance it will stick around),
Right. I think that the comic industry was the prequel to the .com fiasco.
The mentallity of having one book doing Ok in a saturated market and wishing
to be among the few that survives with nothing else to back it up... Well
it just sounds similar to me at least. I also have a computer company so
I'd be real carefull of that. That's part of why I'm here. It's market
research.
> good format and design.
Pertaining to what exactly? The art style, maybe? Or are you refering to
pannels that bounce around so you must guess to figure out which one comes
next? Or are you talking about print quallity? Maybe all of the above?
> > Are there particular styles that would be good?
>
> I'm not wedded to any one thing in particular.
Well, how about things to avoid? I like manga but am pretty sick of it in
comics. The influence is one thing but Americans attempting to copy someone
else's national style seems weak to me. I'd like to try new things.
> > Is color important?
>
> Not to me, but it does make it easier to sell into some markets.
Most if not all. But here again, I hope that the art and story would be
enough to keep folks buying untill color is more affordable. Does this seem
reasonable or should I save up more money and wait?
> Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
> Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
> Newly updated: December Previews, Reviews of Catwoman, JLA, Avengers
>
Thanks Johanna.
-Rand
Nenad Vidovic
nw wrote:
>
> "Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
> news:B836E2DA.579D8%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
> > nw at rmcc...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > what do you look for from a small publisher/indie outfit?
> >
> > Intriguing story that's not too cliche or derivative, professional art
> that
> > supports the story well,
>
> What about Sandman where the art was often odd or downright horrible, but
> the story kept you reading. Not that I'm Niel Gaimen, but was that series a
> fluke or could that work again?
Yes, the story is definetly something that holds the whole comic. If the
story is great I can forgive relatively sloppy art.
If I can add what I think is important for anyone starting the new title
is to complete the fucking thing. I am too tired of new comics coming
out and then never being completed. If you can't support the monthly,
bi-monthly schedule that's ok go for the yearly or two times a year
schedule.
Think of a comic as this and you'll succeed (at least to discerning
reader):
90% story
10% everything else (art, color, format)
--
nenad
=====
Use comicsfan when replying directly
Johanna Draper Carlson
> What about Sandman where the art was often odd or downright horrible, but
> the story kept you reading.
The only "bad" art I can think of in Sandman was a poor choice of inker over
Colleen Doran's work. Every other time, I thought the art did a great job of
working with the story.
There are so many good books out there that I'm picky. If I can't read the
art, it may not matter how good the story is. If the story is garbage, it
doesn't matter how pretty the art is. If story and art work together well,
then it still may not be to my taste.
Point being, to publish in today's market, *you* need to believe that what
you're putting out is better than everyone else's work. If you don't believe
in your publication or feel like you're cutting corners, why should anyone
else believe in it enough to buy it?
>> good format and design.
>
> Pertaining to what exactly? The art style, maybe? Or are you refering to
> pannels that bounce around so you must guess to figure out which one comes
> next? Or are you talking about print quallity? Maybe all of the above?
More the print quality. Art style and storytelling would be covered above. I
was thinking of stuff like logo, cover design, paper quality, binding, book
layout, that kind of thing. Check out Top Shelf's work for excellent books
that are just pleasures to touch and hold.
> Well, how about things to avoid?
Personally, I read very little manga, and I'm dead tired of bodycount comics
like the Authority, but you're not making this for me, are you?
> here again, I hope that the art and story would be
> enough to keep folks buying untill color is more affordable. Does this seem
> reasonable or should I save up more money and wait?
Depends on your audience. A non-color superhero-influenced or kids' book is
a tough sell. If you're targeting adults with a mature story, though, it's
just fine.
Raisinlove // forward
> for me, animation pays a lot better for Johan Vasquez. (I skipped FILLER
> BUNNY--not enough value for the money, and chances are it will be in a TPB
> down the road.) From Slave Labor/Amaze Ink, I also like CHARM SCHOOL and
> PRIVATE BEACH.
Yes I`m a big JTHM fan as well, I love his artwork and those comics never
fail to make me laugh :)
Too bad he isnt doing much comics anymore :(
Raisinlove // forward
news:2Z_P7.685$rD2....@nntp1.onemain.com...
> So to generate some discussion what do you look for from a small
> publisher/indie outfit?
I usually look for a genre I'm interested in first, then artwork I find
partocularly appealling, regardless of the story. If a story seems
interesting but I dont like the art, that may be a turn-off...
>How important is artwork and how should the art
> compare to the writing?
Personaly, artwork in comics has more importance than the story for me. Of
course a good story only makes it better!
>Are there particular styles that would be good? Is
I like to be surprised with new styles but I really hate copy-cats. I'm
really turned-off by the whole manga-genre as it seems so uniform. I also
dont like the whole "Danger Girl/Gen13/..." style. It does look good but
there's just too many artists doing it right now...
> color important?
Yes but not essential. I know how much it costs to print in color and I
admire those artists who make up for lack of colors but doing interesting
b&w art. My own comci actually started out in color online:
http://www.raisinlove.com/zombies/
and the print version is b&w. But I gave a boost to the contrasts in the
print version and added new and alternate pages which I did directly in B&W.
>What are your ideas? A big part of why I want to do this
> is that I have only seen a few titles worth reading in the last two
years...
I would simply like to see more of those comics I enjoy the most, but teh
reason they're so hard to find is that its not a very popular genre:
remember the original Deadworld series from Arrow and Caliber? The new
version is ok but its just not what it used to be. I also liked those horror
and sci-fi comics from the 60's. I'm not really talking about EC, but rather
what Rip Off Press and Last Gasp put out. There are a few contemporary
underground comics which I do enjoy alot but they havent had the chance to
get printed profesionaly yet. I'm thinking of Dave Gilbert's Psychopath,
Jake Karn's Tales From Uranus and all those gritty types.
> And so I've drifted from the scene. I feel very out of touch and any
> feedback would be much appreciated.
Do you have any samples online?
Dale Hicks
joh...@comicsworthreading.com says...
> nw at rmcc...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > What about Sandman where the art was often odd or downright horrible, but
> > the story kept you reading.
>
> The only "bad" art I can think of in Sandman was a poor choice of inker over
> Colleen Doran's work. Every other time, I thought the art did a great job of
> working with the story.
The Hempel stuff is aesthetically ugly, although I don't remember any
storytelling problems, which is the key with comics.
There were sections where the art was substandard aesthetically (like the
Orpheus book or the Kieth work), but nothing that would've kept me from
buying the comic like the Hempel art would have, had I not been invested
in the story.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Michael Alan Chary
Johanna Draper Carlson <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>nw at rmcc...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> What about Sandman where the art was often odd or downright horrible, but
>> the story kept you reading.
>
>The only "bad" art I can think of in Sandman was a poor choice of inker over
>Colleen Doran's work. Every other time, I thought the art did a great job of
>working with the story.
Hempel was an awful choice.
--
Mike Chary, Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley
"Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Roger Bacon
John Thorenson
>reader):
>90% story
>10% everything else (art, color, format)
>
comics are an art-driven medium. if you're into story, read a book.
__
"The major problem is that millions of people will have already played these
games on the PS2 by the time the Xbox versions come out." Shane, Gamespot.com
letters, 11/29/01
Carl Fink
wrote:
>Hempel was an awful choice.
I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better inker.
The art sure stank on ice, though, as a finished product.
--
Carl Fink ca...@dm.net
I-Con's Science and Technology Programming
<http://www.iconsf.org/>
Johanna Draper Carlson
> The Hempel stuff is aesthetically ugly
I like it. I liked it better in Breathtaker, but I thought it worked well in
Sandman.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
George Grattan
wrote:
> Dale Hicks at dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid wrote:
>
>> The Hempel stuff is aesthetically ugly
>
> I like it. I liked it better in Breathtaker, but I thought it worked well in
> Sandman.
I hated it when the arc began. By the middle, I started thinking that it was
inspired dissonance between the narrative and visual subject matter, by the
end of the arc, I was in love with it. The fact that it managed to *stop*
looking cartoonish to my eyes by the time Dream met his fate still amazes
me.
Shalom, Peace, Salam,
George Grattan
gra...@rcn.com
"These are our few live seasons. Let us live them as purely as we can, in
the present."--Annie Dillard, _Pilgrim at Tinker Creek_.
Michael Alan Chary
George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>on 12/8/01 7:08 PM, Johanna Draper Carlson at joh...@comicsworthreading.com
>wrote:
>
>> Dale Hicks at dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid wrote:
>>
>>> The Hempel stuff is aesthetically ugly
>>
>> I like it. I liked it better in Breathtaker, but I thought it worked well in
>> Sandman.
>
>I hated it when the arc began. By the middle, I started thinking that it was
>inspired dissonance between the narrative and visual subject matter, by the
>end of the arc, I was in love with it. The fact that it managed to *stop*
>looking cartoonish to my eyes by the time Dream met his fate still amazes
>me.
I apprently got the issues without the mind-altering drugs soaked intot he
pages.
Carl Henderson
news:MPG.167c39da9...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net:
> There were sections where the art was substandard aesthetically (like
> the Orpheus book or the Kieth work), but nothing that would've kept me
> from buying the comic like the Hempel art would have, had I not been
> invested in the story.
Bryan Talbot's art (SANDMAN SPECIAL) is substandard aesthetically? You must
have very different standards from me.
Carl Henderson
news:9uuemd$5pg$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu:
> In article <B83824E5.9078%gra...@rcn.com>,
> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>>I hated it when the arc began. By the middle, I started thinking that
>>it was inspired dissonance between the narrative and visual subject
>>matter, by the end of the arc, I was in love with it. The fact that it
>>managed to *stop* looking cartoonish to my eyes by the time Dream met
>>his fate still amazes me.
> I apprently got the issues without the mind-altering drugs soaked into
> the pages.
That's a rare variant. Get that baby slabbed ASAP.
Christopher Basken
> >reader):
> >90% story
> >10% everything else (art, color, format)
> >
>
> comics are an art-driven medium. if you're into story, read a book.
That's highly subjective, isn't it? I mean, I like comics for their stories
too (when they're well-told).
Having said that, I would venture that small indies tend to be more story-
(or concept-) driven, while more mainstream comics tend to be more
art-driven.
Funny, same pattern with movies.
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
Michael Alan Chary
Carl Fink <ca...@dm.net> wrote:
>On 8 Dec 2001 22:21:23 GMT Michael Alan Chary <mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>Hempel was an awful choice.
>
>I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better inker.
>The art sure stank on ice, though, as a finished product.
Neil was wrong then, or at least, Hempel drew typical Hempel work, by my
memory. I don't have a reference to check now. But Hempel was just not
born to draw an epic struggle between the gods. George Herriman and
Charles Schulz wouldn't have worked either, though I suspect Sparky would
have found a way.Hempel was like getting Jim Davis to draw "A Dream of a
Thousand Cats." (Oh, MY GOD! I'd pay twenty dollars for *that* comic.)
As for inking improving it:
Dick Giordano, WC Carani, and Murphy Anderson working at the height of
their powers couldn't have made *that* art work.
George Grattan
wrote:
>
>
> I apprently got the issues without the mind-altering drugs soaked intot he
> pages.
Bwahahaha!
No, no, the drugs were in your copies, but for some strange reason they're
just taking a *really* long time to affect you.....
Jeff Coleman
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
news:B83815A6.57B1B%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
> Dale Hicks at dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid wrote:
>
> > The Hempel stuff is aesthetically ugly
>
> I like it. I liked it better in Breathtaker, but I thought it worked well
in
> Sandman.
I thought it was fantastic in Sandman! I love Hempel's stuff, and his
drawing suited me juuust fine. I find it a far cry better than most of the
art from early Sandman, with the more-mainstream-comics-style coloring and
rather generic assembly-line format art production. I found Hempel's art to
be one of the LEAST "aesthetically ugly" of the bunch--along with Charles
Vess, P Craig Russell (did he do Ramadan?) and some others. That said, I'm
not an expert on Sandman and haven't reread it in several years.
Jeff
P.S. Is there a kind of "ugly" that's not "aesthetically ugly"? It's cute
how that label might seem to make it sound like some kind official
pronouncement, rather than just another way of saying "I didn't like it." :)
--
www.isaacpriestley.com
Latest album "Days of Being Dumb"
available for download now!
Michael Alan Chary
Carl Henderson <carl.he...@airmail.net> wrote:
>mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael Alan Chary) wrote in
>news:9uuemd$5pg$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu:
>
>> In article <B83824E5.9078%gra...@rcn.com>,
>> George Grattan <gra...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>>I hated it when the arc began. By the middle, I started thinking that
>>>it was inspired dissonance between the narrative and visual subject
>>>matter, by the end of the arc, I was in love with it. The fact that it
>>>managed to *stop* looking cartoonish to my eyes by the time Dream met
>>>his fate still amazes me.
>
>> I apprently got the issues without the mind-altering drugs soaked into
>> the pages.
>
>That's a rare variant. Get that baby slabbed ASAP.
>
Damn! And here I am 400 miles away from my storage locker.
Michael Alan Chary
Yes. Picasso's blue period is ugly and deliberately so, but works well
aesthetically. For more, see Etienne Gilson's _Painting and Reality_.
Dale Hicks
mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu says...
> In article <nyzQ7.215706$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Jeff Coleman <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> wrote:
> >
> >P.S. Is there a kind of "ugly" that's not "aesthetically ugly"? It's cute
> >how that label might seem to make it sound like some kind official
> >pronouncement, rather than just another way of saying "I didn't like it." :)
>
> Yes. Picasso's blue period is ugly and deliberately so, but works well
> aesthetically. For more, see Etienne Gilson's _Painting and Reality_.
I'll leave any official pronouncement to our official critic here, but I
just meant to separate any judgements of ugly from trampling on the
mechanics of the work.
But you're right, I didn't like it.
And I read the thing in TPB form, that must be how I missed the mind-
altering chemicals.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Michael Alan Chary
Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article <9uui92$68p$3...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu says...
>> In article <nyzQ7.215706$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Jeff Coleman <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >P.S. Is there a kind of "ugly" that's not "aesthetically ugly"? It's cute
>> >how that label might seem to make it sound like some kind official
>> >pronouncement, rather than just another way of saying "I didn't like it." :)
>>
>> Yes. Picasso's blue period is ugly and deliberately so, but works well
>> aesthetically. For more, see Etienne Gilson's _Painting and Reality_.
>
>I'll leave any official pronouncement to our official critic here, but I
>just meant to separate any judgements of ugly from trampling on the
>mechanics of the work.
"Official critic?" Did I miss a meeting?
Anyway, I was just saying there was, in fact, a difference. I'm with you:
it was ugly. It also trampled on the work, but it was ugly. Not ugly like
Coipel and Nauck, but still ugly.
>But you're right, I didn't like it.
>
>And I read the thing in TPB form, that must be how I missed the mind-
>altering chemicals.
I actually feel kind of cheated. I mean, if it made Hempel's art work with
the story, that was some good shit.
George Grattan
wrote:
>>
>> And I read the thing in TPB form, that must be how I missed the mind-
>> altering chemicals.
>
> I actually feel kind of cheated. I mean, if it made Hempel's art work with
> the story, that was some good shit.
No- it made Hempel's art not work with the story in the right ways.
But what do I know? I've got the shakes now, anyway.....
Get off me! Get off me!
Fred! Fred! Can't you hear the colors?.....
Drool.
I Blame The Governmute
declared:
>nw at rmcc...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> What about Sandman where the art was often odd or downright horrible, but
>> the story kept you reading.
>The only "bad" art I can think of in Sandman was a poor choice of inker over
>Colleen Doran's work. Every other time, I thought the art did a great job of
>working with the story.
I like Kieth, and I like Dringenberg, but Kieth/Dringenberg was not
a great match (and Kieth wasn't doing his best anyway).
Jill Thompson's art is great when she does it all herself, and
fairly awful when someone else inks her. Wishy-washy colouring and
endless production fuck-ups didn't help Brief Lives either.
Rotating inkers really hurt the consistency on a lot of the longer
storylines.
Hempel's run was the second-best art in the whole series.
-Chris
__________________________
Don't go surfing in the English surf
It's cold and dirty and the beach is worse
Carl Henderson
news:hezQ7.7901$5W5.3...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net:
>> comics are an art-driven medium. if you're into story, read a book.
> That's highly subjective, isn't it? I mean, I like comics for their
> stories too (when they're well-told).
I've got to agree. One of my favorite comics right now is KNIGHTS OF THE
DINNER table. The "art" consists of one or two crude cartoons (usually a
front and side view) of each character. Nearly all the action takes place
at a gaming table. I don't think I've ever seen any of the character's
feet. But who cares? The book is hilarious, with great characters, and
always one of my top reads every month.
Carl Henderson
> As for inking improving it:
>
> Dick Giordano, WC Carani, and Murphy Anderson working at the height of
> their powers couldn't have made *that* art work.
I don't have as much of a problem with Hempel's art as you do. However, I
just wanted to point out that Dick Giordano and Murphy Anderson both would
have been fully capable of redrawing all the figures from Hempel's layouts,
thus making the art "work."
Michael Alan Chary
Carl Henderson <carl.he...@airmail.net> wrote:
>mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael Alan Chary) wrote in
>news:9uufkd$5u3$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu:
>
>> As for inking improving it:
>>
>> Dick Giordano, WC Carani, and Murphy Anderson working at the height of
>> their powers couldn't have made *that* art work.
>
>I don't have as much of a problem with Hempel's art as you do. However, I
>just wanted to point out that Dick Giordano and Murphy Anderson both would
>have been fully capable of redrawing all the figures from Hempel's layouts,
>thus making the art "work."
Well, Cory too, but then it would not have been *that* art, would it.
Nenad Vidovic
John Thorenson wrote:
> comics are an art-driven medium. if you're into story, read a book.
Not true. If the story kicks ass then it doesn't really matter how well
it is drawn. If the story sucks shit it doesn't matter if it is kick ass
art - unless you want to make posters out of pages. Case in point: some
Heavy Metal stories - beautiful art, lousy stories = lousy comics;
Sandman first two volumes - incompetent artwork, great story = excellent
comics.
The best would be to have great story and artwork, but it is easier to
forgive less than marvelous artwork than crappy story.
For your information: comics are books!
nenad
=====
Use comicsfan when replying directly
Christopher Basken
>
> Not true. If the story kicks ass then it doesn't really matter how well
> it is drawn. If the story sucks shit it doesn't matter if it is kick ass
> art - unless you want to make posters out of pages. Case in point: some
> Heavy Metal stories - beautiful art, lousy stories = lousy comics;
> Sandman first two volumes - incompetent artwork, great story = excellent
> comics.
> The best would be to have great story and artwork, but it is easier to
> forgive less than marvelous artwork than crappy story.
> For your information: comics are books!
There was a debate of sorts about this between John Byrne and Peter David a
few years back. Byrne favored art, saying no one picks up a book and thinks
"Gee, this looks well-written! I'll buy it!" but instead makes such a
decision based on the art. David had an opposing view, but I can't remember
any particular sound bites.
I agree with Byrne's notion that it's the art that sells the book initially,
but it's often the writing that keeps 'em coming back. I read X-Men (12+
years ago) as long as Claremont wanted to tell good stories. The moment he
started betraying his own writing (IMHO the rebirth of Jean Grey and other
associated events), I lost interest. Of course, throughout most of that
time X-Men had the JRJR/DG art team, so it's hard to say if it was the
writing or art that kept me.
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
Raisinlove // forward
> (or concept-) driven, while more mainstream comics tend to be more
> art-driven.
Yet there are many indie titles which are more art driven and action
oriented without being mainstream. My own comic would be one such example.
Raisinlove // forward
a
> few years back. Byrne favored art, saying no one picks up a book and
thinks
> "Gee, this looks well-written! I'll buy it!" but instead makes such a
> decision based on the art. David had an opposing view, but I can't
remember
> any particular sound bites.
> I agree with Byrne's notion that it's the art that sells the book
initially,
> but it's often the writing that keeps 'em coming back. I read X-Men (12+
> years ago) as long as Claremont wanted to tell good stories. The moment
he
> started betraying his own writing (IMHO the rebirth of Jean Grey and other
> associated events), I lost interest. Of course, throughout most of that
> time X-Men had the JRJR/DG art team, so it's hard to say if it was the
> writing or art that kept me.
See, we cant really generalize. I personaly pick up any title when I#m
impressed with the art, regardless of the story. I do stick to genres I like
however.
Nenad Vidovic
regardless of art or writing. The proof of this is that same artists,
writers doing other books are not selling nearly as many books. So, both
theories here are not true. A good selling book can be sometimes because
of the writer (Alan Moore, Garth Ennis) or because of the artist (Frank
Miller etc...). However this has nothing to do with the quality of the
book itself.
If you want to create a good book, you need good writing. If you want to
create a best-seller, you need to call your book X-something (or follow
whatever is that public wants at the moment). Impossible to do both...
I am assuming the book in question will be self-published book. If you
want to sell that book to indy friendly public (those that actually read
the 'Comics' section in Previews) you need kick-ass story. If you want
to sell book to mainstream audience (Marvel, DC zombies) don't bother:
those people don't read 'Comics' section in Previews anyway. So unless
you've got a deal to publish through image,DC, Marvel or Dark Horse you
need great story...
nenad
--
Jeff Coleman
"I Blame The Governmute" <mu...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c12...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> I like Kieth, and I like Dringenberg, but Kieth/Dringenberg was not
> a great match (and Kieth wasn't doing his best anyway).
>
> Jill Thompson's art is great when she does it all herself, and
> fairly awful when someone else inks her. Wishy-washy colouring and
> endless production fuck-ups didn't help Brief Lives either.
>
> Rotating inkers really hurt the consistency on a lot of the longer
> storylines.
>
> Hempel's run was the second-best art in the whole series.
I agree completely--to the folks who hated Hempel so much, did you like TUG
AND BUSTER? Was it just the "offense" of someone in a more stylized vein
drawing a book that usually had fairly "realistic" art such as Kieth and
Doran. (Kieth and Doran are pretty stylized in their own vein, but they're
on a different side of the McCloud Big Triangle than Hempel, definitely.)
It's a big shock to me that so many people agree on how "awful" Hempel's art
supposedly was, because it was one of the ones that I looked forward to
seeing the most, and in which I felt like the whole package of penciler,
inker and colorist, was coming together to make great art, rather than just
slapping some color or some lines down on the page so we can tell basically
what's going on, even if it does look a bit like a dog's breakfast.
How do you like James Kochalka or Peter Bagge? Tom Hart? Dylan Horrocks?
These folks all have very stylized aspects to their art, and I happen to
love them. What about Art Spiegelman in MAUS?
Jeff
Arbane the Terrible
>>P.S. Is there a kind of "ugly" that's not "aesthetically ugly"? It's cute
>>how that label might seem to make it sound like some kind official
>>pronouncement, rather than just another way of saying "I didn't like it."
>>:)
>
> Yes. Picasso's blue period is ugly and deliberately so, but works well
> aesthetically. For more, see Etienne Gilson's _Painting and Reality_.
How about H. R. Giger's stuff? (He's the guy who designed the monster from
_Alien_.) Grotesque subjects, perfectly drawn.
--
"Remember, the plural of 'moron' is 'focus group'."
-- James A. Wolf
Darryl Sheakley
necessary to emote;
(Christopher Basken wrote;)
[Story or Art?]
>>I agree with Byrne's notion that it's the art
>> that sells the book initially, but it's often the
>> writing that keeps 'em coming back. I read
>> X-Men (12+ years ago) as long as
>> Claremont wanted to tell good stories. The
>> moment he started betraying his own writing
>> (IMHO the rebirth of Jean Grey and other
>> associated events), I lost interest. Of course,
>> throughout most of that time X-Men had the
>> JRJR/DG art team, so it's hard to say if it
>> was the writing or art that kept me.
>See, we cant really generalize. I personaly
> pick up any title when I#m impressed with the
> art, regardless of the story. I do stick to
> genres I like however.
Sure we can!
My experience on X-Men is much like Basken's, in the early- to
mid-eighties, and I bought the title during this time specifically
because of these artists. The occasional Barry Windsor-Smith didn't
hurt, either.
That said, I almost exclusively buy comics due to the artist. Being an
artist, the shit better have a hell of a good artist if you expect me to
pay for it.
If the story is entertaining, it's an added bonus.
Coincidentally, in most cases, it turns out that some of the industry's
best artists are working with the industry's best writers, if they
aren't the writer themselves!
--
Check out Hope 7 at http://www.hope7comic.com and Darryl's Comics!
nw
"Nenad Vidovic" <ne...@NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:3C1224A2...@NOSPAM.net...
> Yes, the story is definetly something that holds the whole comic. If the
> story is great I can forgive relatively sloppy art.
> If I can add what I think is important for anyone starting the new title
> is to complete the fucking thing. I am too tired of new comics coming
> out and then never being completed. If you can't support the monthly,
> bi-monthly schedule that's ok go for the yearly or two times a year
> schedule.
> Think of a comic as this and you'll succeed (at least to discerning
> reader):
> 90% story
> 10% everything else (art, color, format)
I figured I wouldn't release the first issue untill the third was complete,
preferably the sixth but that would keep the story from being current with
trends, styles, news and even technology. I know I want the rough story
written at least a six months in advance. I also figured to write out the
major themes and plot points before pencilling issue one. I have this dred
of never-ending comics and after watching Cowboy Bebop, I understand why.
The whole series is only 20-something eppisodes long, but the length of the
series keeps it on track. As I rewatch the eppisodes I see how they relate
to the major themes and charecters and am amazed. Small things I didn't
notice before have great depth and meaning. Compare this with X-men who's
major theme of anti-racism has been ground into the viewer so long and often
it's dull. Any opinions?
-Rand
nw
news:20011208173725...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> >Think of a comic as this and you'll succeed (at least to discerning
> >reader):
> >90% story
> >10% everything else (art, color, format)
> >
>
What about the thoery that art attracts the reader, but the story keeps
them? I've seen many well-drawn books disappear because of bad writting.
OTOH I've seen some excellent stories get dropped because the art didn't
attract readers.
-Rand
> __
>
> "The major problem is that millions of people will have already played
these
> games on the PS2 by the time the Xbox versions come out." Shane,
Gamespot.com
> letters, 11/29/01
>
nw
as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
-Rand
"Christopher Basken" <ch...@basken.com> wrote in message
news:hezQ7.7901$5W5.3...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
nw
-Rand
"Carl Henderson" <carl.he...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:B448BF81B4535743.AC0B4A9F...@lp.airnews.net...
nw
-Big two knock-off
-story driven
-"creative" art (almost abstract some times)
Am I missing anything?
-Rand
"Raisinlove // forward" <steph-at-rais...@spam.com> wrote in
message news:9v06nt$bpg0u$1...@ID-75711.news.dfncis.de...
nw
panels orders or other things which distract the reader from the story would
be an issue no matter how good the story. Though now that I think about it
I've never heard anyone say "the story is cool, but I just can't read it".
But art style can be of "inferior" quality as long as it moves the story
along. Does this sound right?
-Rand
"Nenad Vidovic" <ne...@NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:3C139124...@NOSPAM.net...
nw
news:9uMQ7.8450$5W5.3...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> There was a debate of sorts about this between John Byrne and Peter David
a
> few years back. Byrne favored art, saying no one picks up a book and
thinks
> "Gee, this looks well-written! I'll buy it!" but instead makes such a
> decision based on the art. David had an opposing view, but I can't
remember
> any particular sound bites.
That makes sense. Does anyone have links to more on that?
> I agree with Byrne's notion that it's the art that sells the book
initially,
> but it's often the writing that keeps 'em coming back. I read X-Men (12+
> years ago) as long as Claremont wanted to tell good stories. The moment
he
> started betraying his own writing (IMHO the rebirth of Jean Grey and other
> associated events), I lost interest. Of course, throughout most of that
> time X-Men had the JRJR/DG art team, so it's hard to say if it was the
> writing or art that kept me.
But you think it was the writing? If the art sucked, would you have
continued reading?
-Rand
> --
>
> Chris_Basken________________
> www.animalkingdoms.com
>
>
>
nw
-Rand
I Blame The Governmute
>Are the indies as successful though? I don't mean in dollar sales so much
>as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
Cerebus has been running for almost 25 years. Love & Rockets for 20.
Peter Bagge's Hate, under different titles, for 17. Bone just
celebrated it's tenth anniversary.
Can you name any "non-indie" creators who've been telling one story
for that long?
Raisinlove // forward
> -Big two knock-off
> -story driven
> -"creative" art (almost abstract some times)
Well your three categories so far seem accurate, except the last one is
pretty vague. Here`s how I would decsribe my own book: definitely not a big
two knockoff, not really story driven yet there is a solid plot. We
(contributors so far) just happen to have concentrated on the action taking
place in the story, allowing us to have fun with dynamic actions rather than
dialogue. This in itself would reflect the style on some mainstream
superhero comics, except we dont take anything seriously, allowing for
humour and a 60`s and 70`s underground comics feel featuring campy stuff
like zombies, evil cults and cyborgs. But most of the b-movie feeling comes
from the artwork rather than the story, since it would be utterly different
if it were rendered in a realistic fashion with muscles and sexy women
everywhere.
Raisinlove // forward
much
> >as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
> Cerebus has been running for almost 25 years. Love & Rockets for 20.
> Peter Bagge's Hate, under different titles, for 17. Bone just
> celebrated it's tenth anniversary.
> Can you name any "non-indie" creators who've been telling one story
> for that long?
Very true...but if you count mainstream artists who used to be indie, we
could perhaps include Vince Locke who worked on the 25 issue run of
Deadworld on Arrow + Caliber. He now works at DC I believe?
--
-steph
Raisinlove // forward
news:0P%Q7.1638$jm4.1...@nntp3.onemain.com...
> Which genres would that be? Horror and what else?
Well besides horror, I enjoy anything sci-fi, the occasional fantasy story
and I very much enjoy anthologies.
Within horror, I love splatter comics: books which focus on the art more
than anything else. Caliber's Negative Burn offered stories ranging from
horror to sci-fi to superhero stuff and even humour.
One of my favorite genres however are those "black humour" titles like Milk
& Cheese or JTHM. I pick up alot of fanzines and undeground comics (lots of
these in Montreal) and these guys make fun of stuff that publishers would
rather shy away from, such as politics in some cases.
I`m also a big Crumb fan and his stuff always cracks me up :)
Jeff Coleman
"I Blame The Governmute" <mu...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c14...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "nw" <rmcc...@hotmail.com> digitally declared:
>
> >Are the indies as successful though? I don't mean in dollar sales so
much
> >as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
>
> Cerebus has been running for almost 25 years. Love & Rockets for 20.
> Peter Bagge's Hate, under different titles, for 17. Bone just
> celebrated it's tenth anniversary.
Those were just the examples I was going to use! Also Colleen Doran has
been doing "A Distant Soil" for at least ten years, Roberta Gregory's
"Naughty Bits" for almost that, Eddie Campbell's Bacchus has reached sixty
or something issues and he's been working in the business for fifteen,
twenty years.
Dan Clowes--between Lloyd Llewellyn and Eightball, fifteen years?, Chris
Ware, something close to ten. Heck, even Paul Pope's been working for about
ten years on THB and various other projects. Scott McCloud's Zot! may have
only run for 36 issues, but he's been in the business for twenty years.
And I know that I'll keep coming back to Mark Crilley's Akiko, Scott
Roberts' Patty Cake, James Kochalka, Tom Hart, Dylan Horrocks, Jessica Abel,
and Jay Stevens, David Lapham for as long as they keep doing work.
Just like in any other medium, "good story" can "hold readers" who are
interested in what they consider "good story". Those who are interested in
"good art" will read the books they consider to have "good art". Those who
enjoy both will get the books that satisfy them on both counts.
> Can you name any "non-indie" creators who've been telling one story
> for that long?
The only one I can think of who comes anywhere close is Erik Larsen, whose
Savage Dragon reached 90+ issues of being written, pencilled and inked by
Erik Larsen.
Christopher Basken
> as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
>
> -Rand
The longevity of most mainstream characters and titles is largely an
illusion. Superman has been around since the 30s, but it isn't one long
storyline. It isn't even the same character, strictly speaking. Mainstream
comics tend to reinvent themselves every decade or so.
And as someone else pointed out, there are long-running indie titles that
have maintained character, overall story integrity, and continuity for 10,
20, and 30 years. Cerebus, Distant Soil, etc...
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
Christopher Basken
David
> a
> > few years back. Byrne favored art, saying no one picks up a book and
> thinks
> > "Gee, this looks well-written! I'll buy it!" but instead makes such a
> > decision based on the art. David had an opposing view, but I can't
> remember
> > any particular sound bites.
>
> That makes sense. Does anyone have links to more on that?
This was back in 1992 or so -- I read it in the CBG. I can't even remember
if it was a letter sent in by Byrne or in B.I.D.
Perhaps -- http://www.comicbookresources.com/features/byrne/
> > I agree with Byrne's notion that it's the art that sells the book
> initially,
> > but it's often the writing that keeps 'em coming back. I read X-Men
(12+
> > years ago) as long as Claremont wanted to tell good stories. The moment
> he
> > started betraying his own writing (IMHO the rebirth of Jean Grey and
other
> > associated events), I lost interest. Of course, throughout most of that
> > time X-Men had the JRJR/DG art team, so it's hard to say if it was the
> > writing or art that kept me.
>
> But you think it was the writing? If the art sucked, would you have
> continued reading?
The art did vary, but I kept reading it because I had put an emotional
investment in the characters. Once that threshhold is crossed for me, I'll
keep reading no matter how bad the art becomes, until the writing bottoms
out.
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
I Blame The Governmute
>"I Blame The Governmute" <mu...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>news:3c14...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> "nw" <rmcc...@hotmail.com> digitally declared:
>>
>> >Are the indies as successful though? I don't mean in dollar sales so
>much
>> >as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
>>
>> Cerebus has been running for almost 25 years. Love & Rockets for 20.
>> Peter Bagge's Hate, under different titles, for 17. Bone just
>> celebrated it's tenth anniversary.
>Those were just the examples I was going to use! Also Colleen Doran has
>been doing "A Distant Soil" for at least ten years, Roberta Gregory's
>"Naughty Bits" for almost that, Eddie Campbell's Bacchus has reached sixty
>or something issues and he's been working in the business for fifteen,
>twenty years.
But the actual Bacchus story ended five years ago: the magazine was
an anthology. He has been doing Alec stories for over twenty years,
though! (And the Deadface/Bacchus series ran, in various different
forms, for a decade.)
The rest of your examples speak to creator careers, not the
longevity of one story, which is what I took 'nw' to be asking about.
>> Can you name any "non-indie" creators who've been telling one story
>> for that long?
>The only one I can think of who comes anywhere close is Erik Larsen, whose
>Savage Dragon reached 90+ issues of being written, pencilled and inked by
>Erik Larsen.
Right, good one. But he's probably the only one these days (and is
functionally an indie creator/self-publisher, but let's not get into
those distinctions...).
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I enjoy anything sci-fi, the occasional fantasy story
> and I very much enjoy anthologies.
Have you tried Forbidden Book? It's a fantasy anthology with terrific
talent.
Johanna Draper Carlson joh...@comicsworthreading.com
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Akiko, Age of Bronze, Little White Mouse,
Reviews of DK2, Exiles, Name of the Game, Mini-Marvels, Thor
Give some comics a good home! Indies for sale or trade, at the site above.
Raisinlove // forward
> > and I very much enjoy anthologies.
>
> Have you tried Forbidden Book? It's a fantasy anthology with terrific
> talent.
Wow, thanks! Looke dit up online and most of the artwork previewed is
awesome :)
Defintely something to look into next trip at the old comic shop :)
Jeff Coleman
"I Blame The Governmute" <mu...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c15...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Jeff Coleman" <jcol...@handofgod.com> digitally declared:
>
> >"I Blame The Governmute" <mu...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:3c14...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> >> "nw" <rmcc...@hotmail.com> digitally declared:
> >>
> >> >Are the indies as successful though? I don't mean in dollar sales so
> >much
> >> >as longevity. Does a good story hold readers?
> >>
> >> Cerebus has been running for almost 25 years. Love & Rockets for 20.
> >> Peter Bagge's Hate, under different titles, for 17. Bone just
> >> celebrated it's tenth anniversary.
>
> >Those were just the examples I was going to use! Also Colleen Doran has
> >been doing "A Distant Soil" for at least ten years, Roberta Gregory's
> >"Naughty Bits" for almost that, Eddie Campbell's Bacchus has reached
sixty
> >or something issues and he's been working in the business for fifteen,
> >twenty years.
>
> But the actual Bacchus story ended five years ago: the magazine was
> an anthology. He has been doing Alec stories for over twenty years,
> though! (And the Deadface/Bacchus series ran, in various different
> forms, for a decade.)
True--and he was in great form twenty years ago, as the "Days of the Ace
Rock n Roll Club" can attest! For me the "Alec" stories have a great
"story"--even if it's not one continuous story I know that I can pick up an
"Alec" book and it will be a great read, whether it's Graffiti Kitchen or
"How to be an Artist" or whatever.
Sort of like how you can watch an episode of "Friends" or read an Archie
comic for the "story" without having to follow one long continuity.
> The rest of your examples speak to creator careers, not the
> longevity of one story, which is what I took 'nw' to be asking about.
Good point--my focus tends to be more on creator rather than individual
book, so that's the angle I think about it from. I'm glad David Lapham does
comics--whether it's Stray Bullets or Murder Me Dead is alright by me! :)
> >> Can you name any "non-indie" creators who've been telling one story
> >> for that long?
>
> >The only one I can think of who comes anywhere close is Erik Larsen,
whose
> >Savage Dragon reached 90+ issues of being written, pencilled and inked by
> >Erik Larsen.
>
> Right, good one. But he's probably the only one these days (and is
> functionally an indie creator/self-publisher, but let's not get into
> those distinctions...).
Definitely--you know what they say about the guy who looked into the
abyss...
Larsen's such a great example to me of how superhero comics could
be--Dragon, along with Alan Moore's ABC comics, is the only "real" superhero
book I get, and it appeals to me for a combination of the reasons that I
love superhero AND "independent" books: You not only get great big guys
fighting each other, loads of fascinating new concepts and colorful
villains, which is great about superhero books, but you get the consistency
and assurance that it's all done by one guy who's going to keep doing it for
as long as he can. It's like Jack Kirby and Dave Sim had a love child!
Carl Henderson
>> > I enjoy anything sci-fi, the occasional fantasy story
>> > and I very much enjoy anthologies.
>>
>> Have you tried Forbidden Book? It's a fantasy anthology with terrific
>> talent.
>
> Wow, thanks! Looke dit up online and most of the artwork previewed is
> awesome :)
> Defintely something to look into next trip at the old comic shop :)
FORBIDDEN BOOK is also one of the best values in comics. For $10.00 (US)
you get 120+ pages of story/art from very skilled creators.
Kevin J. Maroney
>I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better inker.
That strikes me as a most impolitic thing to have said, especially
given how much Hempel's work on "The Kindly Ones" looked like Hempel's
work on just about everything else he's ever done.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | k...@panix.com
"Love doesn't have a point. Love *is* the point."--Alan Moore
Kevin J. Maroney
Henderson) wrote:
>I don't have as much of a problem with Hempel's art as you do. However, I
>just wanted to point out that Dick Giordano and Murphy Anderson both would
>have been fully capable of redrawing all the figures from Hempel's layouts,
>thus making the art "work."
For that matter, so could Richard Case, who was the inker on the later
issues of "The Kindly Ones". For that matter, so could have D'Israeli,
who was the inker on the early issues, though his art has always been
somewhat scratchy and probably would have been as intensely disliked
as Hempel's by the people who disliked Hempel's work.
There's a few pages in issue 68 where Case does both pencils and inks
and manages to draw something that looks remarkably like both Hempel
and Case in a way that I found quite impressive.
But then, I *liked* the art on "The Kindly Ones".
Kevin J. Maroney
wrote:
>I guess I didn't clearly specify what I meant. An X book sells usually
>regardless of art or writing. The proof of this is that same artists,
>writers doing other books are not selling nearly as many books.
Well, the X-books are not immune to selling poorly--the worst-selling
X books sell one-half to one-third as much as the best-selling ones.
What an X-book has is automatic *attention*, which means that more
people will give it a try than any random book. If you get your comic
into more hands, odds are good that it will sell more copies.
nw
> The longevity of most mainstream characters and titles is largely an
> illusion. Superman has been around since the 30s, but it isn't one long
> storyline. It isn't even the same character, strictly speaking.
Mainstream
> comics tend to reinvent themselves every decade or so.
Excellent point. Superman is version 4.3 right?
-Rand
nw
-Rand
"Kevin J. Maroney" <k...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ersa1usqk824d8hcu...@4ax.com...
David Goldfarb
Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote:
>On 8 Dec 2001 23:34:41 GMT, ca...@dm.net (Carl Fink) wrote:
>>I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better inker.
>
>That strikes me as a most impolitic thing to have said, especially
>given how much Hempel's work on "The Kindly Ones" looked like Hempel's
>work on just about everything else he's ever done.
In fact, I think that I would like a cite on the statement. It sounds
very uncharacteristic of Neil. Certainly at that point on the book
it's unlikely that a regular artist would have been assigned whom Neil
didn't approve of.
(Personally, I really liked Hempel's art also. It showed a great
sense of design.)
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Tom?...I don't get you."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Nobody does. I'm the wind, baby."
|
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Michael Alan Chary
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <b5ta1u8jfmjm4ur5l...@4ax.com>,
>Kevin J. Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote:
>>On 8 Dec 2001 23:34:41 GMT, ca...@dm.net (Carl Fink) wrote:
>>>I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better inker.
>>
>>That strikes me as a most impolitic thing to have said, especially
>>given how much Hempel's work on "The Kindly Ones" looked like Hempel's
>>work on just about everything else he's ever done.
>
>In fact, I think that I would like a cite on the statement. It sounds
>very uncharacteristic of Neil. Certainly at that point on the book
>it's unlikely that a regular artist would have been assigned whom Neil
>didn't approve of.
>
>(Personally, I really liked Hempel's art also. It showed a great
>sense of design.)
How so?
--
Mike Chary, Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley
"Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Roger Bacon
Raisinlove // forward
> I wouldn't mind moving a third of what the top X-books do.
We can help each other. I plugged record labels, websites, comics and bands
of friends and contacts on the bottom of a few pages from my first issue. In
return they plugged my comic in their releases. I have the net to thank for
getting this far. Once creators make contact through the web, they can
create collectives or at least help promote each other's books.
For example, if every independant creator mails a few copies to other
creators with similar books (same genre or style) and these mail back copies
of their own, we can have a wider variety of comics to sell when setting up
a table at local conventions of events. We help fellow creators sell their
books and get recongnized in other cities while getting our own books out in
the open in other cities.
Jeff Coleman
"Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:9v4t0g$vij$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu...
> In article <9v4la7$28qf$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> >In article <b5ta1u8jfmjm4ur5l...@4ax.com>,
> >(Personally, I really liked Hempel's art also. It showed a great
> >sense of design.)
>
> How so?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of what you folks could
possibly be seeing WRONG with Hempel's art.
If you didn't like it, I don't know that anything an admirer of Hempel can
tell you would change your mind.
So it's more stylized than many of the previous artists who worked on
Sandman, big deal! I thought D'israeli was a great inker over it, and I
don't know who colored it, but as I said before, it finally felt, to me, as
though the color and art were UNIFIED for once in their presentation. For
me, it was a big relief not to have to look at the kind of
assembly-line-looking art that had dominated the series. I think Colleen
Doran is a fantastic art in her own right, but the way her stuff was inked
and colored just looked awful to me in Sandman.
Did you read TUG & BUSTER? Hempel really shone there--pushing the
boundaries of stylization toward the abstract, while doing (IMO) one of the
funnier humor comics in recent memory. In T&B, I've always thought Hempel
was the best Abstract Expressionist working in comics: Franz Kline, Robert
Motherwell and others seemed to be big influences.
Have you looked through the INSIGHT STUDIOS art book? It features Marc
Hempel, Frank Cho and Mark Wheatley. It has paintings by Hempel that I find
extremely beautiful.
I wouldn't have thought that Hempel's art would be such a specialized taste,
especially as suited as I felt it was to the story and the mood in Sandman,
but I guess I've learned something...
nw
advertisers? I hate being a sales guy but don't really see any
alternatives. What would be good business' to contact? You mentioned music
a lot and web sites (both areas I'm pretty well plugged in to <G>), but what
else?
-Rand
"Raisinlove // forward" <steph-at-rais...@spam.com> wrote in
message news:9v54hr$cnv01$1...@ID-75711.news.dfncis.de...
Christopher Basken
> That's a great idea! And begs the question... How does one get
> advertisers? I hate being a sales guy but don't really see any
> alternatives. What would be good business' to contact? You mentioned
music
> a lot and web sites (both areas I'm pretty well plugged in to <G>), but
what
> else?
>
> -Rand
>
> "Raisinlove // forward" <steph-at-rais...@spam.com> wrote in
> message news:9v54hr$cnv01$1...@ID-75711.news.dfncis.de...
> > "nw" <rmcc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:p1kR7.5045$7R6.2...@nntp2.onemain.com...
> > > I wouldn't mind moving a third of what the top X-books do.
> >
> > We can help each other. I plugged record labels, websites, comics and
> bands
> > of friends and contacts on the bottom of a few pages from my first
issue.
> In
> > return they plugged my comic in their releases. I have the net to thank
> for
> > getting this far. Once creators make contact through the web, they can
> > create collectives or at least help promote each other's books.
Makes me wonder if there's some kind of indie association already in
existence that we could tap into. I wouldn't mind partaking, as well.
Of course, the best thing is to get into the faces of the retailers. To
that end, an indie distributor would work nicely. The only one I know is
Alernative Comics, but they're a snob (er, I mean, they have discriminating
tastes).
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
nw
http://geocities.com/randlci/nw/cover.gif
-Rand
"Raisinlove // forward" <steph-at-rais...@spam.com> wrote in
message news:9v06rc$bol8u$1...@ID-75711.news.dfncis.de...
> > There was a debate of sorts about this between John Byrne and Peter
David
> a
> > few years back. Byrne favored art, saying no one picks up a book and
> thinks
> > "Gee, this looks well-written! I'll buy it!" but instead makes such a
> > decision based on the art. David had an opposing view, but I can't
> remember
> > any particular sound bites.
> > I agree with Byrne's notion that it's the art that sells the book
> initially,
> > but it's often the writing that keeps 'em coming back. I read X-Men
(12+
> > years ago) as long as Claremont wanted to tell good stories. The moment
> he
> > started betraying his own writing (IMHO the rebirth of Jean Grey and
other
> > associated events), I lost interest. Of course, throughout most of that
> > time X-Men had the JRJR/DG art team, so it's hard to say if it was the
> > writing or art that kept me.
>
> See, we cant really generalize. I personaly pick up any title when I#m
> impressed with the art, regardless of the story. I do stick to genres I
like
> however.
>
nw
shops and offering the first few issues at cost (possibly free) to see what
kind of response the book gets. If they get full profit I would think they
would be happy to push the book for me. Then if it sells I could raise the
price, which if it sells they would be happy to pay. It seems they have
been getting more and more "big two" again so there has to be a way to break
in. Any thoughts?
-Rand
"Christopher Basken" <ch...@basken.com> wrote in message
news:JVvR7.3141$zX1.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Christopher Basken
Not bad. It would catch my eye on a shelf. It doesn't look like the kind
of story I'd be interested in reading, but that's beside the point.
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
Christopher Basken
comic
> shops and offering the first few issues at cost (possibly free) to see
what
> kind of response the book gets. If they get full profit I would think
they
> would be happy to push the book for me. Then if it sells I could raise
the
> price, which if it sells they would be happy to pay. It seems they have
> been getting more and more "big two" again so there has to be a way to
break
> in. Any thoughts?
Sounds similar to my plan. I have a story and characters that I like, and
would be interested in reading. I created an intro storyline that sets up a
lot of situations, but as a story it has a definite conclusion. I'll be
putting this out as a 9-issue b&w miniseries, and my sales approach will be
to sell it online, selling to local stores, and sell it through small
distributors. I'll be keeping the entire miniseries in print as I write &
draw them, so I'm hoping that by the end of the 9th, each will have sold a
few hundred, even maybe a thousand or so. If that happens, then I'll start
a new ongoing series that I'll bring to Diamond (and I'll use the sales of
the miniseries to show it has an audience).
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> How does one get advertisers?
Write to comics you appreciate that also carry ads and offer to do a swap.
Send out your press kit and advertising information to prospective clients.
Be prepared to answer questions from potential clients like "what are your
sales?" and "what audience are you targeting?" and "how will this help *my*
sales?"
Dale Hicks
says...
> >On 8 Dec 2001 23:34:41 GMT, ca...@dm.net (Carl Fink) wrote:
> >>I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better inker.
>
> very uncharacteristic of Neil.
Well, if we can trust THE SANDMAN COMPANION, Neil is quoted as saying
"[...] Marc's art style was perfect for the story I wanted to tell. And
I think it worked beautifully."
In article <wksR7.291135$W8.98...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
jcol...@handofgod.com says...
>
> So it's more stylized than many of the previous artists who worked on
> Sandman, big deal! I thought D'israeli was a great inker over it, and I
> don't know who colored it, but as I said before, it finally felt, to me, as
> though the color and art were UNIFIED for once in their presentation.
If you're trying to say that the clean bold lines and weak backgrounds
let the colorist (Daniel Vozzo, let's name him) do a really nice piece of
work (as if coloring a coloring book), then I'll agree.
But ultimately, the breaking from the realism of the art served no
purpose except to pull the reader from a gothic tale and place him in
Archie of the Damned. P Craig has the bestest of all excuses (well,
besides the fact that he draws _pretty_ pictures), he was working on an
honest-to-goodness fairy tale. Just like 'Lil Death's depiction.
But Hempel took stories in the real world, stories in realms that have
looked like the real world, and placed them all in Delirium's realm. He
gave the moon witch Harry Carey glasses, fercrissakes.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Jeff Coleman
"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.16808c8b6...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> In article <9v4la7$28qf$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
> says...
> > >On 8 Dec 2001 23:34:41 GMT, ca...@dm.net (Carl Fink) wrote:
> > >>I recall Neil saying that Hempel would have been okay with a better
inker.
> >
> > In fact, I think that I would like a cite on the statement. It sounds
> > very uncharacteristic of Neil.
>
> Well, if we can trust THE SANDMAN COMPANION, Neil is quoted as saying
> "[...] Marc's art style was perfect for the story I wanted to tell. And
> I think it worked beautifully."
>
> In article <wksR7.291135$W8.98...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> jcol...@handofgod.com says...
> >
> > So it's more stylized than many of the previous artists who worked
on
> > Sandman, big deal! I thought D'israeli was a great inker over it, and I
> > don't know who colored it, but as I said before, it finally felt, to me,
as
> > though the color and art were UNIFIED for once in their presentation.
>
> If you're trying to say that the clean bold lines and weak backgrounds
> let the colorist (Daniel Vozzo, let's name him) do a really nice piece of
> work (as if coloring a coloring book), then I'll agree.
Well, obviously I wouldn't put it that way. I don't look for Gene Ha or
Geoff Darrow backgrounds in Marc Hempel art. It worked for me.
I also happen to greatly prefer flat color in comics--the Love and
Rockets "Maggie and Hopey Color Special", or Herge's "Tintin" are what I
would consider tops in comics coloring.
> But ultimately, the breaking from the realism of the art served no
> purpose except to pull the reader from a gothic tale and place him in
> Archie of the Damned.
Or perhaps not so "ultimately", as I had almost the opposite reaction. The
difference may be that I consciously consider it a personal reaction, rather
than an absolute judgment of Hempel's artwork itself.
I had my suspicions that the dislike of Hempel's art was due to ideas
about which types of art are "appropriate" for which types of story, and I
wondered when someone would suggest that Hempel's style would be more suited
to a children's story (or an "Archie of the Damned").
I feel the art of Marc Hempel (or of Bruce Timm, to mention somebody who
occupies a similar space on McCloud's Big Triangle) can tell a whimsical
"fairy-tale" type story just as well as a "serious" story, a "fantasy" story
or a "horror" story. He'd probably make different choices to communicate
mood and emotion in different genres, but I don't feel the specific level of
stylization he uses cuts him off from being able to tell certain kinds of
story.
The recent comic "Tom Strong's Terrific Tales" features a
heavily-rendered, "realistically-drawn", story drawn by Art Adams, as well
as a wordless, whimsical goofy short story drawn by Jaime Hernandez. Jaime
has an extremely iconic, "cartoony" style, but (if you have any experience
with Love and Rockets) would you say Jaime's art is unsuited to tell a
serious story?
Personally, I don't respond very well to what looks to me like regular
comics assembly-line "realistic" illustration. It works for me in the
context of who I consider the real "greats" of the field, such as Jack Kirby
or Carmine Infantino, or Siegel and Shuster, Bob Kane, Curt Swan, and so on.
But for modern comics I read, I find myself looking for more individual
approaches. That's one reason I don't get many continuing series from the
superhero publishers.
I've been thinking about the "theory" behind it as a result of this
conversation, but mainly, when I first read Hempel's Sandman story, I just
found myself digging it without thinking about it--it didn't strike me as
"wrong" or "unusual", (except "unusual" in a pleasant way). As I said, it
surprised me to no end to hear such widespread dislike of it.
>P Craig has the bestest of all excuses (well,
> besides the fact that he draws _pretty_ pictures), he was working on an
> honest-to-goodness fairy tale. Just like 'Lil Death's depiction.
I agree that Russell's art looks classically beautiful, and I do believe his
rendering is excellently suited to honest-to-goodness fairy tales. But just
because Charles Vess draws like Arthur Rackham doesn't mean that his stories
have to have fairies in them. He communicated the Elizabethan era to me in
his own artistic voice excellently in his Shakespeare stories in Sandman.
> But Hempel took stories in the real world, stories in realms that have
> looked like the real world, and placed them all in Delirium's realm. He
> gave the moon witch Harry Carey glasses, fercrissakes.
I guess perhaps I just like cartoony art more than you do--I don't consider
it to be "not" in the "real world" any more than I consider the art of some
superhero-penciller-inker-colorist team to be "the real world".
When I read a Jack Kirby comic, it takes place in "Jack Kirby World",
when I read an Eddie Campbell comic, it takes place in "Eddie Campbell
World". I don't think of the world drawn by John Byrne, George Perez, Jim
Lee or Kieth and Dringenberg to be more "real" than that of Herge, Jaime
Hernandez or Chris Sprouse.
Similarly, a Coen Brothers movie seems to me to exist in a "Coen
Brothers World", Orson Welles films seem to exist in "Orson Welles World",
and Casablanca exists in "Casablanca World"...
Basically, I'm with Neil on this one. Hempel's great by me. :)
Raisinlove // forward
> Send out your press kit and advertising information to prospective
clients.
> Be prepared to answer questions from potential clients like "what are your
> sales?" and "what audience are you targeting?" and "how will this help
*my*
> sales?"
Damn, you should write a book on successfull comic publishing, most of your
posts here have been really usefull. I'm actually saving some of your
messages for future reference. Thank you!
Pasley & Jeff
the entire Sandman series.
> I also happen to greatly prefer flat color in comics--the Love and
> Rockets "Maggie and Hopey Color Special", or Herge's "Tintin" are what I
> would consider tops in comics coloring.
Oh God, yes!!! Seriously. Colorists of the world, unite! Disable all
Photoshop filters and plug-ins! Learn to *color* fer cryin' out loud!!!
> > But ultimately, the breaking from the realism of the art served no
> > purpose except to pull the reader from a gothic tale and place him in
> > Archie of the Damned.
Kelly Jones' twisted stalagmite anatomy is realism? (???)
> I feel the art of Marc Hempel (or of Bruce Timm, to mention somebody who
> occupies a similar space on McCloud's Big Triangle) can tell a whimsical
> "fairy-tale" type story just as well as a "serious" story, a "fantasy" story
> or a "horror" story. He'd probably make different choices to communicate
> mood and emotion in different genres, but I don't feel the specific level of
> stylization he uses cuts him off from being able to tell certain kinds of
> story.
I'd like to end with a plug for Bernie Mireault, another much-maligned
"cartoony" artist with a quirky style. I remember some particularly
nasty reactions to his three-issue run on Grendel.
--Jeff LeBlanc
Dale Hicks
says...
>
> > > But ultimately, the breaking from the realism of the art served no
> > > purpose except to pull the reader from a gothic tale and place him in
> > > Archie of the Damned.
>
> Kelly Jones' twisted stalagmite anatomy is realism? (???)
I'll get to the other Jeff's comments later, but yeah, there's form
there. That's the biggest difference, in that you can actually pretend
that the figures are 3-D depicted in 2-D, instead of 2-D chariacatures
that have to be forced by mind into a 3-D world.
He takes liberties, as do several of the other artists, but there's a
basic connection to the visual world in his art.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Jeff Coleman
"Pasley & Jeff" <pasle...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C16F408...@sympatico.ca...
> I'm with you, Jeff. Personally, I'd be happy to let Marc Hempel redraw
> the entire Sandman series.
>
> > I also happen to greatly prefer flat color in comics--the Love and
> > Rockets "Maggie and Hopey Color Special", or Herge's "Tintin" are what I
> > would consider tops in comics coloring.
>
> Oh God, yes!!! Seriously. Colorists of the world, unite! Disable all
> Photoshop filters and plug-ins! Learn to *color* fer cryin' out loud!!!
And still I suppose there are some folks who would say that "broad,
cartoony" stories such as Tintin should be colored in flat colors, and
superheroes should be done with "realistic" gradated airbrush-style
coloring, simply because of the genres. But I like reading superhero
stories colored in flat colors just as much as "cartoony" stories.
For me, it usually comes down to the artist doing the coloring. I did
Kyle Baker's more complex computer-coloring in YOU ARE HERE, just like I
enjoy Herge's flat colors or the flat colors in Jaime's story. I like
Gerhard's subtle watercolors on CEREBUS covers as well (his watercoloring on
the covers during JAKA'S STORY were especially beautiful--it would be a real
shame if Dave never reprinted those!)
It just depends on who's doing it.
> > > But ultimately, the breaking from the realism of the art served no
> > > purpose except to pull the reader from a gothic tale and place him in
> > > Archie of the Damned.
>
> Kelly Jones' twisted stalagmite anatomy is realism? (???)
Heh! Definitely...
There's an interesting interchange on this subject in the recent COMICOLOGY
interview with Brian Bolland:
COMICOLOGY: Do you ever worry that your "realistic" approach
might dull the fantasy of certain characters, such as Batman, who
might work best when rendered in an exaggerated fashion?
BOLLAND: Them's fighting words! Who says Batman looks better
when drawn unrealistically and in an exaggerated fashion?: And
who says that my style is "realistic"? Well, I suppose actually it
is...
My feeling is that artists through the years have all brought
something to [a] character... He's got to bring out the best of each
character in his own way and to the best of his ability. The fantasy,
or the "fantastic-ness" of Batman, is there already. All you have to
do is draw it vividly and full-bloodedly.
My work doesn't look any more realistic to me than Bruce Timm's.
We both draw with thin lines and thick lines and blocks of black.
I dig both Bolland and Timm, so I love to see what each of them does with a
character--for example, Bolland's and Timm's stories in BATMAN BLACK AND
WHITE. You could say Bolland's was the more "grimly realistic" of the two,
but I think that has more to do with the subject matter than the level of
stylization.
Bolland could have drawn "Batman: Mad Love" and Timm could have drawn
"The Killing Joke", and I still feel they'd each be a fascinating work of
art! I'd love to see what that would be like!
> > I feel the art of Marc Hempel (or of Bruce Timm, to mention somebody
who
> > occupies a similar space on McCloud's Big Triangle) can tell a whimsical
> > "fairy-tale" type story just as well as a "serious" story, a "fantasy"
story
> > or a "horror" story. He'd probably make different choices to
communicate
> > mood and emotion in different genres, but I don't feel the specific
level of
> > stylization he uses cuts him off from being able to tell certain kinds
of
> > story.
> I'd like to end with a plug for Bernie Mireault, another much-maligned
> "cartoony" artist with a quirky style. I remember some particularly
> nasty reactions to his three-issue run on Grendel.
I don't know much of Mireault's work, but that seems to be an
(unfortunately) common reaction. I don't think people care too much for
change in general. I don't know if it's still on the shelves, but I need to
find a copy of the James Kochalka HULK story. That's an idea that's taken
far to long to come!
> --Jeff LeBlanc
Jeff Coleman
"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMsouth.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1680bbb83...@news1.lig.bellsouth.net...
> In article <3C16F408...@sympatico.ca>, pasle...@sympatico.ca
> says...
> > Kelly Jones' twisted stalagmite anatomy is realism? (???)
>
> I'll get to the other Jeff's comments later, but yeah, there's form
> there. That's the biggest difference, in that you can actually pretend
> that the figures are 3-D depicted in 2-D, instead of 2-D chariacatures
> that have to be forced by mind into a 3-D world.
I guess the "forcing" into a 3-D world happens for me on some subconscious
level that I don't notice. I've always identified very strongly with
McCloud's description in "Understanding Comics" of the way the mind
perceives its own body as a sort of "cartoon", which aids the personal
identification with a cartoony figure.
Neither Charlie Brown nor Betty Boop look anything at all like a human
being, but I'm darned if I can see anything else when I look at them!
nw
am involved in marketing but even I have no idea how to go about learning
that information. Any tips?
-Rand
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joh...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in message
news:B83C17E1.57F5A%joh...@comicsworthreading.com...
nw
"Jeff Coleman" <jcol...@handofgod.com> wrote in message
news:F1CR7.159298$WW.10...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Personally, I don't respond very well to what looks to me like regular
> comics assembly-line "realistic" illustration. It works for me in the
> context of who I consider the real "greats" of the field, such as Jack
Kirby
> or Carmine Infantino, or Siegel and Shuster, Bob Kane, Curt Swan, and so
on.
> But for modern comics I read, I find myself looking for more individual
> approaches. That's one reason I don't get many continuing series from the
> superhero publishers.
> I've been thinking about the "theory" behind it as a result of this
> conversation, but mainly, when I first read Hempel's Sandman story, I just
> found myself digging it without thinking about it--it didn't strike me as
> "wrong" or "unusual", (except "unusual" in a pleasant way). As I said, it
> surprised me to no end to hear such widespread dislike of it.
I have been thinking about the theory behind comic art and style as well.
What I noticed was in high school and into college I wanted to draw as
realistic as possible. The closer I could get to photo-realism the better.
That didn't necessarily mean I'd use it, but I needed the ability so I could
distort things into a "super-powered" view. Big muscles on men, "perfect
10" bodies on women, etc. Then I got to level I wanted to attain and found
it...
well...
boring.
Not to mention static and Unrealistic. You just can't take the real world
and throw spandexed people with perfect muscles and super powers in it and
expect it to work (with possible exception to Alex Ross). A good example of
this would be the last couple Batman movies. The directors kept saying "I
want this to be more like the comic books". So neon and spandex and
exaggeration took over and it just didn't work. Tim Burton's version of a
similar world that was a bit more stark worked wonderfully though.
It was the style that did the trick. Muted colors and all that "white
space" that the mind could rest on allowed the visitor to relax the mind and
enter "Tim's world". A world that included Batman.
The same applies to comic books. When we are younger the more "realistic"
mainstream art grabs us because that's how we *want* to do it. That's how
we want to draw (even or perhaps especially those who can't draw). Then as
we get older the feeling creeps in slowly and the thought comes "I've seen
this before". It's dull. Even Scott MacLeod makes reference to this
phenomenon indirectly when speaking about the process. The artist who finds
the masters work and carries on the tradition...
Anyway, when we get older we want more variance in our lives. Everything
works in cycles and all the music starts sounding the same, the clothing
fads come around again, the day job is pretty routine, etc. So we look to
our comics for something new (or usually something old handled a new way).
The more stylistic art gets our attention. We start buying indie mags
instead of the X-collection. And the world has changed. We can escape to a
completely cartoony world or almost real. The whole gamut of McLeod's
triangle is available.
But only on the indie rack.
These are just my thoughts and I hadn't really committed them to "paper"
before typing this up, or thought the whole thing trough so comments and
debate are welcome.
-Rand
Adrian Brown
<rmcc...@hotmail.com> writes:
>I just started lurking here about a week ago so I've been trying to figure
>the vibe of this group. Anyway, I'm going to print at least one comic
>series and if it goes well I have another two that I'd like to do as well.
>If that goes well I'll probably take the whole thing on and start publishing
>other books as well. But I want to avoid "Big 2" syndrome which is what I
>think caused many of the problems at Image (similar characters, storylines,
>etc. *yawn*).
>
>So to generate some discussion what do you look for from a small
>publisher/indie outfit? How important is artwork and how should the art
>compare to the writing? Are there particular styles that would be good? Is
>color important? What are your ideas? A big part of why I want to do this
>is that I have only seen a few titles worth reading in the last two years...
>And so I've drifted from the scene. I feel very out of touch and any
>feedback would be much appreciated.
>
>-Rand
I look for interesting stories, commitment, and reasonable production (art,
presentation etc)
Artwork is a personal thing, I like a whole range of styles, and yet I would
say some very similar looking books do not appeal to me at all, whereas
similarly written ones usually do. Colour is unimportant to me.
examples of good practice:
Kane, Castle Waiting, Finder, Age of Bronze, Slow News Day.
AiT/PlanetLar, Oni Press.
oh and: Four Women, Lucifer, Outlaw Nation, The Establishment.
* * * * * * * *
BORDERLINE - comic mag from the edge
http://www.borderline.mediahall.co.uk
HEROES
A Convention Sketchbook with a story !
email just...@aol.com for info
previews at http://members.aol.com/adeheathen/c2000page2.htm
Raisinlove // forward
> Photoshop filters and plug-ins! Learn to *color* fer cryin' out loud!!!
Hey I'd like to know what you think of my own Photoshop coloring:
http://www.raisinlove.com/zombies/
I'm not a pro yet but getting there I believe...
I'm actually looking for coloring gigs alongside any illustration jobs...
Raisinlove // forward
> What I noticed was in high school and into college I wanted to draw as
> realistic as possible. The closer I could get to photo-realism the
better.
> That didn't necessarily mean I'd use it, but I needed the ability so I
could
> distort things into a "super-powered" view. Big muscles on men, "perfect
> 10" bodies on women, etc. Then I got to level I wanted to attain and
found
> it...
I also tried doing things realisticaly for a while but it took me such time
to get anatomy and poses right that it took way too much time to do
realistic comics, so I quickly gave up that style and concentrated on what I
enjoyed most anyway: stylised artwork. When there is need for it, I will
concentrate on acurate anatomy to reproduce reality but for comics its just
no fun for me. The only way I evolved and got productive in comics was to do
away with any rules. This of course destroyed any chance of getting a job
doing superhero comics but I realized early on that that wasnt what I wanted
anyway. Today I'm still learning and even if I'm that technical in my
artwork, I still manage to get published and get a few illustration gigs
where I can draw any way I want.
--
Christopher Basken
I
> am involved in marketing but even I have no idea how to go about learning
> that information. Any tips?
Information regarding how well your book will sell? There's no real way to
know that. You pretty much decide who your target audience is by the way
you write, draw, and promote your book. Actiony books tend to be geared
towards young males, and the further you drift from superheroes, the older
your audience will likely be. Mood books, like horror or thriller books,
are more likely to be read by college kids and up.
Helping someone else's sales is a tricky problem. If you're putting out a
very similar book, they may worry about you as competition, but if you put
out a very different book, your audiences aren't going to have much overlap
(and therefore very little assistance with regards to sales). I'm not sure
which end of that spectrum is best to lean towards.
--
Chris_Basken________________
www.animalkingdoms.com