Youngblood Genesis & Busiek
JIMMYJAY39
------------
RE: YOUNGBLOOD: GENESIS
Kurt Busiek wrote 3 brilliant plots for Youngblood Year One that have been
waiting patiently for the appropriate talent to emerge and illustrate the
title. Kurt has been informed that we were going to move forward with this
project since the spring of 99. Both myself and the project editor contacted
Kurt several times over the past year to ask him to script the project and Kurt
told us his schedule was full and that he would be unavailable to work with us
on it. At one point he also suggested that if we waited until after Gorilla
launched that he would have been open to, but by no means commited to, giving
the project further consideration. We waited and he informed us that he could
not script over his plots and Kurt politely told us he understood that we
needed to move forward and we set out to find someone who could finish the job.
Kurt's plots are terrific, filled with intrigue and conspiracy sure to appeal
to fans of his work on Avengers and Astro City. Kurt's story densely weighs in
at 90 total pages, which brings each of the 3 volumes in the series as 30 page
oversized books. It was written right after MARVELS and we are anxious to
finally publish the work.
Busiek's glib attitude towards the project is in keeping with his attempts to
distance himself from a project that he cashed checks for a long time ago. He
has also stressed to me and others that he does not want to have other projects
competing with his struggling Gorilla titles. The plots require minimal
omissions of a few IMAGE Characters such as LYNCH and WYNN. Kurt himself
suggested that they are easy to replace with other government operatives to
further the story.
As for someone else scripting over Busiek's plots, this is not a new practice
for him, in fact it is one that he is utilizing on the upcoming DEFENDERS
title.
Carl Henderson
[snip]
>He has also stressed to me and others that he does not want to have other projects
>competing with his struggling Gorilla titles.
[snip]
>As for someone else scripting over Busiek's plots, this is not a new practice
>for him, in fact it is one that he is utilizing on the upcoming DEFENDERS
>title.
This has got to be one of the snottiest, most condescending, and least
professional press releases I've ever read. If Liefield did not write this, he
needs to be suing someone over it. If he did, he needs to apologize.
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Carl Henderson rec.arts.comics/rec.arts.comics.misc FAQ
carl.he...@airmail.net http://www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dementia
>Rob had asked me to post this in response to recent debate on this board...
>------------
>Busiek's glib attitude towards the project is in keeping with his attempts to
>distance himself from a project that he cashed checks for a long time ago.
Now isn't this professional. Sure makes you wonder why Kurt doesn't
want to work there...
Nat Gertler
>
> Busiek's glib attitude towards the project is in keeping with his attempts to
> distance himself from a project that he cashed checks for a long time ago.
And which is deceptively being promoted as "written by Kurt Busiek"
instead of more legitimately granting him the appropriate co-writer
credit... which is the only aspect that I've seen him be "glib"
about. And glib is far more polite than this attempt to mislead
purchasers at Kurt's expense deserves.
KurtBusiek
>>Kurt politely told us he understood that we
needed to move forward and we set out to find someone who could finish the
job.>>
Absolutely. I don't blame you a bit for moving forward, and I encouraged you
to.
Soliciting the book as written by me, however, when they're plotted by me and
scripted by someone else -- that's the part I have a problem with. I sure hope
you'll credit the guy who finishes the job.
>> As for someone else scripting over Busiek's plots, this is not a new
practice for him, in fact it is one that he is utilizing on the upcoming
DEFENDERS title. >>
Not quite, since Erik has plot input and I've got script input on DEFENDERS.
But certainly I've worked that way before.
The publisher didn't try to pass it off as solo work by me, though.
>> Busiek's glib attitude towards the project is in keeping with his attempts
to distance himself from a project that he cashed checks for a long time ago.>>
What a bad man I am, not wanting to be solicited as the writer of a project I'm
not actually scripting. How glib of me. And heck, I'm already seven years
distanced from those plots -- how much further can I get?
But since Rob's been so nice as to insult me while using my name to sell his
books, let me respond. Every time someone at Awesome has called and asked me
to do work for the company, I've said I'm too busy at the moment (which is
true), but that maybe in the future, things'll be different. Which was also
true, at the time.
Let me amend that. Never again, Rob. Whatever mileage you're getting out of
soliciting me as the sole writer for this project, when you know it's not true
-- and when that was the one request I made of your editor when he talked to me
about the project, that I not be credited as anything more than plotter -- had
better be enough. It's the last you get.
After all, the only other thing I wrote for you -- a full plot and ten pages of
full script for a 48-page YOUNGBLOOD graphic album -- I never got paid for, so
you've got no right to use it.
kurt
The SUPERSTAR Ashcan, by Busiek & Immonen, is now available online, at the
ApeNation Trading Post! Plus: Check out SHOCKROCKETS and other Gorilla comics
FREE at the site!
http://www.apenation.com/
Danny Sichel
> Jimmy Jay quotes Rob:
>>> Busiek's glib attitude towards the project is in keeping with his attempts
>>> to distance himself from a project that he cashed checks for a long time ago.
> What a bad man I am, not wanting to be solicited as the writer of a project I'm
> not actually scripting. How glib of me. And heck, I'm already seven years
> distanced from those plots -- how much further can I get?
> But since Rob's been so nice as to insult me while using my name to sell his
> books, let me respond. Every time someone at Awesome has called and asked me
> to do work for the company, I've said I'm too busy at the moment (which is
> true), but that maybe in the future, things'll be different. Which was also
> true, at the time.
> Let me amend that. Never again, Rob. Whatever mileage you're getting out of
> soliciting me as the sole writer for this project, when you know it's not true
> -- and when that was the one request I made of your editor when he talked to me
> about the project, that I not be credited as anything more than plotter -- had
> better be enough. It's the last you get.
Hmh.
I've never seen Busiek get pissed off before.
> After all, the only other thing I wrote for you -- a full plot and ten pages of
> full script for a 48-page YOUNGBLOOD graphic album -- I never got paid for, so
> you've got no right to use it.
Still, it's Busiekiana - I don't suppose you'd consider making the text
available to the Net in general?
KurtBusiek
available to the Net in general?>>
No plans for that at present -- but who knows, maybe someday. I've just
checked, and I've still got it all, along with the last communication there
ever was on the project -- a fax I sent asking if the artist was ever going to
get a page rate, since Extreme wasn't returning phone calls by then.
Eventually, I'd like to arrange to put up a number of never-released projects,
like the outline to the full VICTORY and SILVER STAR stories, and the WHAT IF
Captain America Had Never Joined the Avengers outline I did that I was pretty
proud of.
Christopher J. Sypal
(KurtBusiek) wrote:
>Eventually, I'd like to arrange to put up a number of never-released projects,
>like the outline to the full VICTORY and SILVER STAR stories, and the WHAT IF
Yes, yes, yes, please, please, please! I always liked that first issue of
Victory and always wondered what happened to second issue.
{Christopher J. Sypal -- csy...@radiks.net}
[ The Domestic Anime CD Guide ]
[ http://www.radiks.net/csypal/cds/ ]
Nic Goodchild
And Gorilla is struggling but Awesome isn't?!
--
Nic Goodchild
E-Mail: selb...@btinternet.com
ICQ: 26155581
Yahoo ID: edunikki
MSN ID: edunikki
JIMMYJAY39
______________________
never again. so be it. go with god.
In regards to a Youngblood graphic novel, is this the matter that you and Jeph
Loeb discussed a while back? I was under the impression that it was a
Youngblood Year One issue and that it had been settled. I am not aware of a
graphic novel that you wrote. 48 pages, WOW ! I will definetly have a look into
this one.
Robert Carnegie
I may pick this book up, all the same, when it comes out.
I suppose it will come out? More than once, maybe? I enjoyed
Alan Moore's _Youngblood_ - brief as it was - and I dig K.B.
big time, so if this reads like low-calorie Busiek-flavoured soya
instead of natural wholemeal Busiek, it may still appeal. But
I'll wait for the online reviews.
After all, K.B. _did_ get paid for _this_ work. And it's not like
_anyone_ doesn't already know that Awesome press releases need to be
read very carefully. They didn't invent hype - it's just that
too often, there's hype but there isn't an actual comicbook.
I almost feel they should be rewarded when they actually do
publish a story.
Oh, when's _Brigade_ #2 coming?
Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kevin J. Maroney
>I've never seen Busiek get pissed off before.
I have. This was a pretty good display of Politely Telling Someone
Where They Can Stick It and How Deep, though.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Unplugged Games | kmar...@ungames.com
"Love doesn't have a point. Love *is* the point."--Alan Moore
KurtBusiek
>>In regards to a Youngblood graphic novel, is this the matter that you and
Jeph Loeb discussed a while back?>>
Jeph called and asked if there was anything I'd never been paid for, so I told
him about it, yes. I'm not looking to be paid -- I consider it water under the
bridge at this point -- but I don't want it being used, either. At this point,
I'd rather keep the rights than get paid.
>> I was under the impression that it was a Youngblood Year One issue and that
it had been settled.>>
Nope -- I was paid for the three YBY1 plots I did, and never did the fourth and
final plot, since by that point it was clear than the book wasn't coming out.
>>I am not aware of a graphic novel that you wrote.>>
Well, you're the one who asked me to do it, you approved the pitch in person,
you approved the artist -- Ray Lago -- while I was there in the office showing
you his samples.
It was only after I'd started work, Ray was ready to go and we couldn't get
anyone at the office to call him and give him a contract or even a confirmation
that the page rate I'd been told he'd get was what he'd actually get that it
foundered. He had to take other work, and I wasn't interested in doing it
without him.
JIMMYJAY39
-awesome is currently being re-financed and re-structured with the help of
several million dollars.
-As for Brigade- the book was intended early on to be a one shot.
David J. Snyder
JIMMYJAY39 <jimmy...@aol.com> wrote:
>RE: YOUNGBLOOD: GENESIS
>
Why don't you just use some more of your remaining Alan Moore scripts
instead of recycling old Busiek plots anyway? Heck, the last Alan Moore
issue you did publish ended on a cliffhanger.
-Dave
Scott Shupe
all out in public?
Not that I'm complaining, mind you. This has been kind of entertaining.
Nic Goodchild
JIMMYJAY39
____________________
I spoke to Jeph Loeb who confirmed that you told him that you did not seek
payment for the Youngblood special even though he offered to compensate you
several times during the course of your discussion with him. We, my editors and
staff, have no record of it even existing at this point so there is no need for
concern that we will be using it. One editor I spoke to remembered a proposal
for this but not an actual plot.
I have no recollection of the Ray Lago end of it, but that entire period is
sort of a blur to me and I respectfully defer to your recollection of those
events at this point. I'm embarrassed to admit I have no idea who Mr. Lago is.
So I think this brings this to a close. Fare well.
rob
JIMMYJAY39
>
I'm Jimmy!
I've worked in the comic industry fo the last 5 years and the last 2 and half
with Awesome...
Hope that helps...
KurtBusiek
payment for the Youngblood special even though he offered to compensate you
several times during the course of your discussion with him. >>
This is not quite true. Jeph never offered to compensate me. He offered to
look into it, and I told him not to bother, that I was content to leave it as
was.
KurtBusiek
One last question -- a few, actually.
Who is scripting YOUNGBLOOD: GENESIS? When people ask me if I'm writing it,
I'd like to tell them who actually is, instead of just saying I don't know
anythig about it except that you're using my old plots.
Will you be crediting the scripter? Will you be soliciting subsequent issues
accurately?
Who's signing the "signature edition"?
Wade941880
JIMMYJAY39
_______________
i did not air this in public, i settled it in the public forum that it began
in.
rob
JIMMYJAY39
______________
we have not abandoned the alan moore scripts at all. they will be completed as
well.
JIMMYJAY39
jeph will go on record that he offered compensation to you and you turned it
down.
JIMMYJAY39
and again from Rob-
____________________
we have not approached anyone to script over the plots you wrote as yet. we do
however have no small amount of people who have lobbied for the assignment.
when we make a decision we will let everyone know.
we will most certainly be crediting a scripter for their contribution. you will
continue to be solicited accurately as the writer of the first 3 issues. the
scripter will be credited as the scripter for that duration.
the signed editions will be supplied by myself and the walker bros. you were
not advertised as signing any comics so why is this an issue?
rob
Robert Carnegie
jimmy...@aol.com (JIMMYJAY39) wrote:
> _Brigade_ was intended early on to be a one shot.
But, but -
spoiler space -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The guys had a _Young Justice_ kind of thing
going there, with SPICE 1 in the role of PAD's Secret,
and SPICE 2 still out there to make trouble.
(Actually, _very_ Young Justice, with their own
"Superboy" - Kid Supreme - and all. But, hey,
this is comics; it happens.)
So what happens next, is nothing? Heck!
Elayne Riggs
> Again, in response to earlier postings-
> and again from Rob-
> ____________________
> we have not approached anyone to script over the plots you wrote as yet.
And the book is already *solicited*? With a miscredit, thus making the
whole thing returnable anyway?
Are your new financial backers aware of how your business practices have
not improved?
- Elayne
Rich Johnston
>
>And the book is already *solicited
Elayne, scripting a good comic book can take two weeks, maybe. Some take much
less, some a little more.
Thankfully, it's over two months till the book comes out. Plenty of time, even
including lettering, proofing and printing.
Rich Johnston twis...@hotmail.com
All The Rage and Rich's Rumblings at http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com
Ramblings 2000 at http://come.to/ramblings & http://www.twistandshoutcomics.com
Selling lots of comics at http://www.geocities.com/evenwood/sale.html
Jim Murdoch
>JIMMYJAY39 <jimmy...@aol.com> happened to mention:
>> Again, in response to earlier postings-
>> and again from Rob-
>> ____________________
>
>> we have not approached anyone to script over the plots you wrote as yet.
>
>And the book is already *solicited*? With a miscredit, thus making the
>whole thing returnable anyway?
Elayne, do you think there's a snowball's chance of this book shipping
at all? You should know Awesome better than that.
Jim
Comic Madness
Variant-Free for Y2K
Justin Bacon
>> we have not approached anyone to script over the plots you wrote as yet.
>
>And the book is already *solicited*? With a miscredit, thus making the
>whole thing returnable anyway?
Assuming that these are complete plots (and I would assume they are if Mr.
Busiek was getting paid for them), then they are all set to be drawn -- Marvel
Method and all that. The scripter will then be brought in when the drawing is
done.
Surely you don't think everyone gets a complete book finished three months
ahead of time in this industry?
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Elayne Riggs
Heh. Well, they've surprised me before. We never expected to see any
more Supreme issues, right?
Thing is, if it does ship, and it's solicited incorrectly, I believe it's
all returnable on the basis of the misleading credit, and the retailers
are owed their money back if they choose to return the book to Awesome.
- Elayne
Elayne Riggs
>>> we have not approached anyone to script over the plots you wrote as yet.
>>
>>And the book is already *solicited*? With a miscredit, thus making the
>>whole thing returnable anyway?
> Assuming that these are complete plots (and I would assume they are if Mr.
> Busiek was getting paid for them), then they are all set to be drawn -- Marvel
> Method and all that. The scripter will then be brought in when the drawing is
> done.
Gosh, Justin, thanks for informing me how comics work. ;)
- Elayne
KurtBusiek
>>jeph will go on record that he offered compensation to you and you turned it
down.>>
I've already gone on record, right here, that he offered to look into it, and
we ended it there. I'm sure that, had he looked into it, he'd have offered to
get me paid for it, but we didn't get that far.
Similarly, you stated that one of your editors remembered nothing more about
Youngblood: Local Hero than a proposal. If that was Eric Stephenson, the
editor with whom I dealt on it, other than you, he had a plot outline and ten
pages of full script the last time I talked to him about it, so if all he
remembers is a proposal, there's something in the water at Awesome.
>>we will most certainly be crediting a scripter for their contribution.>>
Good to hear.
>>you will continue to be solicited accurately as the writer of the first 3
issues.>>
I am not the writer of the first 3 issues. I'm the plotter, and at best the
co-writer.
>>the signed editions will be supplied by myself and the walker bros. you were
not advertised as signing any comics so why is this an issue?>>
Because your solicitation for the issue itself pushes my name more than anyone
else's, and then states that a "signature edition" is also available, but
neglects to say who's signing it. Judging from my e-mail, people are assuming
it's me. While you didn't actually say it's me, I find it odd that you'd
solicit a signed edition without saying who's signing it, since one would
assume customers would care -- just as they'd care who's scripting it.
So I'd like to be able to respond to those e-mails by telling them who's
signing it, since it isn't me.
Nic Goodchild
had WRITTEN it. I have bought all the Moore stuff that Awesome puts out, but
I will not buy anything the company puts out and shall encourage other
people I know to do the same. I cannot see how Busiek is remaining so calm
about all of this.
It is outright dishonest to solicit it as having been written by him. It
will not enhance his reputation (are there any writers of any note
interested? I doubt it) and whilst I cannot see how Liefeld could further
tarnish his reputation in some corners it seems he is giving it a damn good
go.
I know there are a lot of people out there mad at how Moore has been treated
at DC, shouldn't we be getting worked up at this?
This is Awesome blackening some else's good name for a dirty dollar.
Nic.
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger
<jimmy...@aol.com> wrote:
He did not air it in public, but in a public forum....I don't think
that word means what he thinks it means.
--SCAVENGER
Steven Rowe
>Thing is, if it does ship, and it's solicited incorrectly, I believe it's
>all returnable on the basis of the misleading credit, and the retailers
>are owed their money back if they choose to return the book to Awesome.
Since he is the plotter of the book, the book is not miscredited.
Misleading, but not miscredited
(and I guess this another wrong thing Rob learned working at Marvel)
Steven Rowe
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Justin Bacon
<kog...@colorado.edu> writes:
>> i did not air this in public, i settled it in the public forum that it
>began
>> in.
>
>He did not air it in public, but in a public forum....I don't think
>that word means what he thinks it means.
Settling something is not the same as airing it.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Michael Sacal
he's still checking this tread out)
I know that you like to write in the Marvel style(page descriptions, handed
down to the penciler, get pages back to do dialogue).
Is that the case with this Youngblood project, did you write it Marvel style
and didn't finish the dialogue?
If so, why get mad at Rob for soliciting the work as yours, which it is?
I mean, had you writen it in a style other then Marvel style, full script,
wouldn't it that make it your work, both plot and dialogue?
I for one think that the way to resolve this(and prevent something like this
from happening again down the road) would be to write none mavel work in
full script form, that way the work wouldn't need someone else to come in
and finish it, don't you think?
Well, that's just my opnion, for what it's worth.
Man of The Atom
KurtBusiek
down to the penciler, get pages back to do dialogue).>>
Actually, I write in a variety of styles, Marvel-style among them.
>>Is that the case with this Youngblood project, did you write it Marvel style
and didn't finish the dialogue?>>
If I'd written it Marvel-style, I'd have scripted over the art. I haven't done
that. I plotted it Marvel-style, in part because Rob was going to draw it, and
he's comfortable working that way.
>>If so, why get mad at Rob for soliciting the work as yours, which it is?>>
I don't mind a bit if Rob solicits the plot as my work. But when he makes it
appear as I'm the sole writer on the project -- which isn't the case -- then I
object.
>>I mean, had you writen it in a style other then Marvel style, full script,
wouldn't it that make it your work, both plot and dialogue?>>
Yes. And had I written it that way, it'd be accurate to describe me as the
writer. I didn't, though, so it isn't.
>>I for one think that the way to resolve this(and prevent something like this
from happening again down the road) would be to write none mavel work in full
script form, that way the work wouldn't need someone else to come in and finish
it, don't you think?>>
I'm not sure what writing "none marvel work in full script form" means. But if
you're suggesting that I write only full scripts from now on, then I don't
think that's an ideal solution. I prefer to work in whatever approach works
best for myself and the artist involved -- Alan Davis prefers to work
Marvel-style, for instance, as does George Perez. I could tell them, "Sorry,
we have to work full-script, or Rob Liefeld might someday misleadingly solicit
AVENGERS," but I'd rather simply do what'll produce the best comics we can. If
there's ever an AVENGERS I plot but don't script, and Marvel knows it at the
time of solicitation, I'm pretty confident they'll solicit it as plotted but
not scripted by me.
I think the best way to resolve it is not to work for Rob again, which seems to
suit us both fine at this point, and to make sure people aren't surprised when
and if YOUNGBLOOD GENESIS comes out and doesn't match the solicitation.
>>Well, that's just my opnion, for what it's worth.>>
And I thank you for the input, even if I don't agree with it.
Tsalageee
You handled this whole situation with class Kurt and we appreciate it (at least
I do:)).
I'm curious as to how many more bridges Rob will burn before he finds out that
he's all alone?
I understand that it's a business, but Robs morals seem to be lacking. I never
cared for his work or attitude and he keeps reinforcing it. Stretching the
truth (i.e., fibbing) didn't work for Clinton and it surely isn't going to work
here.
Thanks for calling him on it Kurt.
Tsalageee
Busiek
had WRITTEN it.<<
Even WITH Kurt writing it I wouldn't have picked it up. Rob has burned the
readers more than once and I won't help him out by spending my cash on his
company.
>>I will not buy anything the company puts out and shall encourage other
people I know to do the same.<<
Easy call for me :)
>> I cannot see how Busiek is remaining so calm
about all of this.<<
He's a class act.
>>It is outright dishonest to solicit it as having been written by him. It
will not enhance his reputation (are there any writers of any note
interested? I doubt it) and whilst I cannot see how Liefeld could further
tarnish his reputation in some corners it seems he is giving it a damn good
go.<<
Well said. Rob has done so much bad for the industry, I'm surprised anyone
answers his calls anymore.
>>This is Awesome blackening some else's good name for a dirty dollar.
<<
Why sound so surprised? It seems to be Robs M.O.
I wouldn't touch his comics for free.
Nic Goodchild
could never even hope to comprehend. Let alone possess.
I had a word with my local friendly comic retailer today about anything and
everything (talking about his plans to promote the powerpuff girls was the
main thing, because they are said to sell well and he has a prominent city
centre position) and one of the things he mentioned was his refusal to buy
anything from Awesome that wasn't drawn by Ian Churchill or Supreme. Because
the solicitations were so crap he couldn't expect the product to be anything
like what he expected.
Michael Sacal
KurtBusiek <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:20000902153144...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> I don't mind a bit if Rob solicits the plot as my work. But when he makes
it
> appear as I'm the sole writer on the project -- which isn't the case --
then I
> object.
That's what I don't particulary like about The Marvel-Style of making
comics.
Writers do half the job and then stuff like this happens and the job never
gets finished.
Wouldn't it be more fufiling ,faster and better for the project to do full
scripts, so just stuff like this doesn't happen and the comics come out 100%
as the writer intended, both in panel descriptions and dialogues?
> I'm not sure what writing "none marvel work in full script form" means.
I meant to say "work for companies other then Marvel Comics, which is where
the Marvel-Style of writing is used more then in any other company"
>But if you're suggesting that I write only full scripts from now on,
No offense,but as one of the bussiest writers in comics you could never get
away with writing as many comics as you do now if you did them all full
script-style, which btw is not what I meant, sorry for not phrasing my
comments better.
>If there's ever an AVENGERS I plot but don't script, and Marvel knows it at
the
> time of solicitation, I'm pretty confident they'll solicit it as plotted
but
> not scripted by me.
Ok, here's a question about this whole Marvel way of doing comics:
Do Marvel writers get payed double the work, once for plotting and once for
scrpting, or only get payed once for both?
I for one don't understand the whole Marvel Way of making comics.I know that
Stan Lee created the style when he was writing a ton of comics 20 or so
years ago, but why apply the same style outside of Marvel at all?
> And I thank you for the input, even if I don't agree with it.
>
> kurt
That's ok, the whole thing is very confusing for me. As a writer I've always
prefered to do a complete job, writing full script to get my story across
both on panel and dialogu. I've never understood the Marvel Way of making
comics, and to be honest I blame that style of making comics for this kind
of missunderstandings. As you seemed to agree with me, had the project been
written full script none of this would have happened, and we'd all be a
groupd of happy readers,writers and editors.
Later.
Man of The Atom
surdamon
KurtBusiek wrote:
> .....
> >>I for one think that the way to resolve this(and prevent something like this
> from happening again down the road) would be to write none mavel work in full
> script form, that way the work wouldn't need someone else to come in and finish
> it, don't you think?>>
>
> I'm not sure what writing "none marvel work in full script form" means. But if
> you're suggesting that I write only full scripts from now on, then I don't
> think that's an ideal solution. I prefer to work in whatever approach works
> best for myself and the artist involved -- Alan Davis prefers to work
> Marvel-style, for instance, as does George Perez. I could tell them, "Sorry,
> we have to work full-script, or Rob Liefeld might someday misleadingly solicit
> AVENGERS,"
don't get too self important-
i'm sure your method of script writing will have nothing to do
with rob's misleading avenger's soliitation.
--
"We have a budget surplus but a deficit in values"-
George W. Bush, ignoring the lowest crime rates and the greatest
focus on human rights in a generation, instead choosing
to attack his opponent.
KurtBusiek
scripts, so just stuff like this doesn't happen and the comics come out 100%
as the writer intended, both in panel descriptions and dialogues?>>
Two answers there:
1. Depends on the project. Some come out better if you do them plot-style,
some come out better if you do them full-script. I can't imagine having
written MARVELS plot-style. I similarly can't imagine having written UNTOLD
TALES OF SPIDER-MAN full-script.
2. Writing a full script is no guarantee it'll come out just as you wrote it.
Actually, writing plot-style gives you a shot at accomodating (or correcting)
any changes or errors the artist makes. So again, it depends.
>>I meant to say "work for companies other then Marvel Comics, which is where
the Marvel-Style of writing is used more then in any other company">>
I don't know that that's true. Plot-style started at Marvel, but it spread
pretty thoroughly. I've written plenty of projects at Marvel full-script, and
plenty of projects elsewhere plot-style.
>No offense,but as one of the bussiest writers in comics you could never get
away with writing as many comics as you do now if you did them all full
script-style>>
How do you figure? Plot-style isn't faster than full-script, at least not for
me.
>>Do Marvel writers get payed double the work, once for plotting and once for
scrpting, or only get payed once for both?>>
They get paid for plotting and they get paid for scripting. But they don't get
paid more than they would if they did it full-script -- full-script rate is the
same as plot rate plus dialogue rate.
>>I for one don't understand the whole Marvel Way of making comics. I know
that Stan Lee created the style when he was writing a ton of comics 20 or so
years ago, but why apply the same style outside of Marvel at all?>>
Because people who started using it at Marvel were happy with the results and
used the same approach elsewhere. The Image founders, for instance, were all
Marvel-trained -- it'd have been unusual for them to suddenly decide to work in
a manner they weren't familiar with just because they were away from Marvel.
They kept doing what they knew best.
Similarly, Len Wein and Marv Wolfman wrote full-script when they broke in at
DC, learned plot-style when they moved to Marvel, and for the most part stuck
with plot-style once they returned to DC, since it worked out pretty well for
them -- and a couple of DC's biggest successes of the Eighties, TEEN TITANS and
CRISIS, were produced plot-style, allowing George Perez to make full use of his
graphic inventiveness. The Levitz/Giffen LEGION was plot-style, as were any
number of other successful books.
> As a writer I've always prefered to do a complete job, writing full script to
get my story across
both on panel and dialogu.>
That's fine -- it may be the best way to work for you. I prefer the
versatility of being able to work in whatever manner will wind up making the
best comics, given the project and the creators involved.
>>As you seemed to agree with me, had the project been written full script none
of this would have happened, and we'd all be a groupd of happy readers,writers
and editors.>>
No, I didn't agree with that. I simply agreed that had it been written
full-script, the credits would have been accurate. But the project wouldn't
have been written full-script in the first place, because it was written for
Rob Liefeld, a Marvel-style penciler, to draw.
You could as easily say that if I wrote nothing but creator-owned books, this
wouldn't have happened because I wouldn't have done the book in the first
place. Or that if I only wrote for Marvel and DC and no one else, it wouldn't
have happened. Those are both true, but they're not solutions -- they come
with limitations that I'm not willing to accept, as does choosing to write only
full-script.
When I broke in, in 1982, I wrote my first few assignments -- for both Marvel
and DC -- full-script. I switched over to plot-style in order to protect the
work, because I was working with an artist who drew the script accurately but
blandly, and I thought I could punch it up some if I got to write the dialogue
to fit the art rather than leaving the final word on the book in the artist's
hands. It worked -- the stories started to come through better, and I was able
to get some mistakes corrected, and some misreferencing fixed, because I got to
see the art and react to it, something that didn't happen when working
full-script.
So yes, if I only worked full-script, this YOUNGBLOOD thing wouldn't have
happened, because I'd never have written it in the first place. But I'd also
never have written AVENGERS or THUNDERBOLTS or UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN -- or
at the very least, I wouldn't have worked with the same artists and/or they
wouldn't have come out anywhere near the same.
And given the minor annoyance of having to correct Awesome's misleading
solicitation versus the enjoyment and success I got out of those projects, I
figure I'm coming out ahead in the long run.
Full-script isn't perfect. Neither is plot-style. But the more tools and
techniques you can use, the more you can do. Cutting off a wide range of
possibilities in order to protect myself from such an oddball situation
happening once just doesn't work for me.
But if sticking solely to full-script works well for you, by all means do it.
Everybody's different, and everybody should work in whatever way suits them
best and results in the best work. For me, that involves having the freedom to
choose which approach suits a given project and my collaborators on it best.
Steven Rowe
>I for one don't understand the whole Marvel Way of making comics.I know that
>Stan Lee created the style when he was writing a ton of comics 20 or so
>years ago, but why apply the same style outside of Marvel at all?
Actually this way of plotting and scripting was created by Harry Shorten,
editor at MLJ in the early 1940s. (or so people like Irv Novick say). Some
folks use it at DC these days, some folks use full script at Marvel these days.
And it's good to hear that Marvel would credit the scripter as well as the
plotter in their solisitations now; years (and years) ago, they did not.
Justin Bacon
writes:
>Wouldn't it be more fufiling ,faster and better for the project to do full
>scripts, so just stuff like this doesn't happen and the comics come out 100%
>as the writer intended, both in panel descriptions and dialogues?
Not always.
The advantage of the full script approach:
1. The writer has a much finer degree of control.
The advantages of the Marvel Method:
1. The writer can probably produce any given story in less time.
2. The artist has more control over the visual elements of the book.
Now, there are disadvantages to both, as well. But that's what it boils down
to. And which method is going to be better for the project in question is going
to depend largely on the project and the creators involved.
For example:
>I for one don't understand the whole Marvel Way of making comics.I know that
>Stan Lee created the style when he was writing a ton of comics 20 or so
>years ago, but why apply the same style outside of Marvel at all?
Stan Lee created the Marvel Method because he was producing a huge number of
comic books -- and that was a quick way of doing them.
But the reason why the Marvel Method was so successful at Marvel in the 1960s,
I think, is that Lee had artists like Ditko and Kirby working for him who were,
in fact, co-plotters themselves (the most famous specific incident, of course,
is Kirby's creation of the Silver Surfer).
The disadvantage is that not all artists are Ditko and Kirby. And some writers
are Alan Moore.
So I think the moral is: Do what's best for the project in question.
If you try to tie yourself in too stringently into doing "only one or the
other" you'll end up with the old Disney Studios effect: Where, after Walt
Disney died, they continued producing films without storyboards... only to
eventually realize that the reason Walt had never used storyboards was because
he had the entire storyboard up in his head.
What works for one set of creators may not for another.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
KurtBusiek
plotter in their solisitations now; years (and years) ago, they did not.>>
Not sure what you mean, Steven. Back in the Sixties and early Seventies, they
often credited the scripter as writer but not the plotter, but it would have
been most unusual of them to credit the plotter and not the scripter. They
took the reverse attitude -- figuring that scripting is writing, and plotting
was just something Jack and Steve did while they were drawing the books...
And they didn't solicit those books, of course -- they distributed them on a
returnable basis. Solicitations are a thing of the direct market.
Elayne Riggs
> Elaine wrote
>>Thing is, if it does ship, and it's solicited incorrectly, I believe it's
>>all returnable on the basis of the misleading credit, and the retailers
>>are owed their money back if they choose to return the book to Awesome.
> Since he is the plotter of the book, the book is not miscredited.
If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED by, I
would consider that a miscredit. And the gist of this thread is
apparently that Kurt (the plotter in question) considers it a miscredit as
well.
- Elayne
Elayne Riggs
> Ok, here's a question about this whole Marvel way of doing comics:
> Do Marvel writers get payed double the work, once for plotting and once for
> scrpting, or only get payed once for both?
AFAIK they get paid the same, as well they should. You may as well ask
"Do pencillers get paid extra for visually filling in the stuff the plot
hasn't specified, thus saving the writer some work?" :)
- Elayne
Joseph CN Elliott-Coleman
Is Rob really as much of an asshole as you guys are making him out to be?
Christ!!
Grimbiskit
Christ!! >>
Rob has made himself out as an asshole. You make your bed and you lay in
it....his bed just happens to be a big pile of his own shit.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
cunt as the entire comic community says he is.
He can't be anywhere near as Puff Daddy, at least Liefeld thinks of his own
shit.......and i would rather be subjected to Rob Liefelds artwork for the
next 10 years than listen to a second of any track produced by Sean "Puffy"
Combs
Oh yes here are some sites on the web that are dedecated to this artistic
legend
http://www.awpress.com/liefeld.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2092/rob.html
http://members.aol.com/chrisv82/america.htm
P.s: Is it ture that Marc Silvestri hated/hates Rob Liefeld
Grimbiskit
shit.......and i would rather be subjected to Rob Liefelds artwork for the
next 10 years than listen to a second of any track produced by Sean "Puffy"
Combs >>
LOL
Where the hell hjave you been? One of the reasons most people find him so
distatseful is that EVERY picture he does is traced or otherwise swiped. And
all of his comics seem to be a rip of another popular book or movie.
e
Nic Goodchild
what is now the most successful of any of the Image imprints.
Steven Rowe
<jos...@elliott-coleman.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>Is Rob really as much of an asshole as you guys are making him out to be?
Well he is alienating alot of people that he shouldn't be....
That doesn't seem to indicate very smart behavior.
Steven Rowe (who hopes Rob invested his money wisely)
Steven Rowe
writes:
>If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED by, I
>would consider that a miscredit.
It is deceptive and wrong-headed and will alienate those who buy the issue, but
hardly a miscredit.
So being as it is "only" a PLOT,does this mean that plots are unimportant?
Steven Rowe
Robert Carnegie
srowe...@aol.comUNSPAM (Steven Rowe) wrote:
> In article <8p2qem$3e3$5...@news.panix.com>, Elayne Riggs
<fire...@panix.com>
> writes:
>
> >If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED
by, I
> >would consider that a miscredit.
>
> It is deceptive and wrong-headed and will alienate those who buy the
issue, but
> hardly a miscredit.
>
> So being as it is "only" a PLOT,does this mean that plots are
unimportant?
No, of course not. But a plot doesn't include, for instance,
dialogue. In "Marvel style" comicbooks, a plot is written that
roughly covers what happens in the story and what the artist should
draw. Once the art's done, the "script" is written.
"Writer" is usually one guy who's done both, or who wrote
a script _with_ dialogue before the art was drawn - Warren Ellis
usually works that way, and also tells the artist what to do
in each panel, often. Other plotters just write briefly what's
to happen on one page, and the artist can decide how many panels
on the page, how laid out, and what happens in each.
Ellis's writing can be seen at www.warrenellis.com , or in
_X-Force_ Rough Cut #102.
Of course, a plot for 90 pages (3 issues of 30 pages, say)
doesn't amount to 90 pages of written text.
In the case of _Youngblood Genesis_, there apparently _is_
no scripter for the book as of solicitation date, or as of now.
This may or may not be poor professional practice, I can't say.
But it doesn't make Kurt Busiek the "writer" - not in his
expressed opinion, anyway. For all we know, it could end up
being scripted by Rob Liefeld, or by Jimmy - but not, as it turns
out, by K.B. He sold three plots as work for hire, _years_ ago,
probably with the intention of scripting them, and then
quit because the book was never coming out.
I haven't seen a rebuttal of another statement of Liefeld's, that
he was accommodating Busiek's wish that _Youngblood Genesis_
shouldn't clash with the launch of Gorilla Comics. But do we
believe that Awesome held back _Youngblood Genesis_ as a favour
to Kurt Busiek, or because they themselves just weren't ready to
publish yet? And are they just trying to make him look like what
George Bush Jr. called that journalist for complaining now?
No, I don't _want_ Kurt Busiek to rebut this publicly: it doesn't
matter, and he shouldn't waste any more time on it.
Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Elayne Riggs
>>If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED by, I
>>would consider that a miscredit.
> It is deceptive and wrong-headed and will alienate those who buy the issue, but
> hardly a miscredit.
Well, as I say, Kurt is also characterizing it as such, so in this case
I'd certainly side with the opinion of the creative person in question.
> So being as it is "only" a PLOT,does this mean that plots are unimportant?
Nowhere was this implied by anyone on this thread.
- Elayne
Nat Gertler
>
> He sold three plots as work for hire, _years_ ago,
Did he? If we accept Kurt's claim that there was no paperwork
(and I do tend to accept Kurt's claims, as he has shown himself
to be a person of integrity in the past), then legally speaking
it really isn't work for hire. WFH may have been the intent,
but that doesn't make it so.
KurtBusiek
accommodating Busiek's wish that _Youngblood Genesis_ shouldn't clash with the
launch of Gorilla Comics.>>
Okay, I'll rebut that, if you like.
Late last year, when I was contacted and asked to write the fourth plot and
finish the script (not that that involved offering me work, according to Rob),
I told Rob that I didn't have time to do it, and that I was concentrating on
Gorilla anyway, and wouldn't want to take on another project that someone would
be beating the drums for at the same time. I didn't ask him to delay the
project -- I told him that was one of the reasons I wasn't willing to take it
on at that time.
Rob has reconceptualized this as a request to hold off -- though I never asked
him to hold off, or told him that I could do the scripting after Gorilla
launched. He asked if I'd be available later, and I told him straight out that
I couldn't make any such commitment.
Robert Carnegie
But in Kurt's press release (as quoted in Beau Yarborough's
Comics Wire at www.comicbookresources.com) he does say that
it's work for hire, done and paid for. Which means, I guess,
that Awesome own the stuff and can use it however they want -
except that, as /their/ release says, it uses Image characters
which they no longer have access to. Kurt has apparently been
giving informal free advice on "fixing" that aspect of the work.
But neither side has taken the position that Kurt has a _right_
to say how the work is changed now.
Kurt's position, as I understand it, is that his input does
_not_ amount to a full "writer" credit on the finished comicbook
(when it _is_ finished), but only to "plotter". He was offered
a new contract to write the script, and that _would_ have made
him "writer", but he chose to turn it down. Reading between
the lines, either he's standing up for whoever does script it
to get proper credit - or else he thinks it's going to stink
and he doesn't want his name to be on it. Not as "writer",
anyhow. "Plotter" would be fine. This difference is what
he's making a fuss about.
He could have kept quiet, but then, as he sees it - this is
what _I_ think he's getting at - then Rob Liefeld would once
again have screwed over fellow comics creators and comicbook
readers and gotten away with it. It needed someone to stand up
to Rob, just like it needed someone to stand up to John McEnroe
when he used to throw tantrums in tennis matches and bully
the game officials.
I'm partial; on the whole, I enjoy Kurt Busiek's comicbooks
better than Rob Liefeld's. And I think he's right and
Awesome is wrong about how this project was solicited:
crediting him as the writer is misleading and it's insulting,
both to whoever finishes the work and (if it _does_ stink)
to Kurt. I think Awesome should have stated (perhaps as a
polite fiction) that crediting Kurt as writer was simply a
mistake, albeit one which should _not_ have been made while
they were still asking him to come back to script the book
and while he was still saying no - one which makes them look
bad. Because now, they look worse - to us online, anyway.
Although "credit where credit is due" isn't necessarily applied
consistently on every other comicbook on the market. For instance,
I'm quite unsure where the line was drawn on the first issues
of Warren Ellis's new X-friends books. _X-Force_ Rough Cut looks
like all Ellis - so is it just that Ellis wrote full scripts and
then quit the project, so that whatever happened when the artwork
came back wasn't going to involve him? So _he_ didn't want
"writer" credit?
I don't like to speak from ignorance to accuse the guy who got the
other share of the credit for that job of - of whatever you call it
that I seem to be accusing him of - but I don't "get it."
Uh...but the book's still good! Yeah, real good!
(Only, excuse me, what _does_ "the mutant gene for murder" mean??)
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
I really fail to see what the problem is.
Rob has paid you for your 3 plots and if he descided to use them as toilet
paper, then it completely up to him.
Why lower yourself to his childish level.
Move on.
"God is Dead"
Friedrich Wilhelm Nirtzsche
KurtBusiek
Comics Wire at www.comicbookresources.com) he does say that
it's work for hire, done and paid for.>>
Yes. There was no contract, however -- Nat's right in that. So if I wanted
to, I could claim that they don't have the right to use the work. But I knew
it was intended to be work for hire, and I'll honor that -- I honor my deals,
even the handshake ones.
>>Kurt has apparently been giving informal free advice on "fixing" that aspect
of the work.>>
Not especially. There's been far less communication between me and Awesome on
this than Awesome's statements would indicate. Rob's claims of "keeping me
informed every step of the way" amount to nothing more than the calls asking me
to come back and serve as scripter. I was never informed that the project was
scheduled, never informed of who the artists would be, don't know what changes
were or are being made and was in fact never contacted after the last time I
turned the job down. Not that Rob has any reason to keep me informed of these
things -- I'm not working on the project, after all -- but if he ain't doing
it, he shouldn't be claiming it. The only information I've gotten on this
since I turned the job down the last time have come from public fora, news
sources, and one call to Eric Stephenson to see if his memory was as incomplete
as Rob said (it wasn't; Eric remembers the Youngblood graphic album I was
working on and he was editing just fine).
And I haven't had any input on changing the plots. In a couple of the
conversations about me finishing the project, Rob or Eric would say, "There are
some characters in there Jim Lee owns, but it'd be easy to replace them with
someone new," and I'd say, "Yeah, I can't see that as a problem." I don't
think that really amounts to advice on fixing the work.
KurtBusiek
>> I really fail to see what the problem is. Rob has paid you for your 3 plots
and if he descided to use them as toilet paper, then it completely up to him.>>
Absolutely. I just think he should solicit them accurately, and if he's
unwilling to, I'll do if for him.
>>Why lower yourself to his childish level. Move on. >>
This didn't kill me, so I must be stronger now, right?
Nat Gertler
>
> Kurt's position, as I understand it, is that his input does
> _not_ amount to a full "writer" credit on the finished comicbook
> (when it _is_ finished), but only to "plotter". He was offered
> a new contract to write the script, and that _would_ have made
> him "writer", but he chose to turn it down. Reading between
> the lines, either he's standing up for whoever does script it
> to get proper credit - or else he thinks it's going to stink
> and he doesn't want his name to be on it.
Or he simply thinks the deceptive attribution is misleading,
and may lead to people buying the book expecting more Busiek
from it than they get. Or simply for accuracy; I've been
known to public correct misleading credits with my name on
them as well, and it's not because there was anything wrong
with the material I was falsely credited with, nor that
the proper crediting would've made one iota of difference in
sales.
> I think Awesome should have stated (perhaps as a
> polite fiction) that crediting Kurt as writer was simply a
> mistake,
If Awesome states that the solicited credits are a mistake,
that would pretty clearly make the book returnable.
Steven Rowe
writes:
>>>If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED by, I
>>>would consider that a miscredit.
>> So being as it is "only" a PLOT,does this mean that plots are unimportant?
>Nowhere was this implied by anyone on this thread.
ok if you SAY so, but that's certainly how I read your words "only PLOTTED"
above. the word "only", the SHOUTED "plotted"; seem to indicate that as your
belief.
If a comic solicition doesn't list the inker, is it also miscredited?
Steven Rowe
<rja.ca...@mailexcite.com> writes:
>But a plot doesn't include, for instance,
>dialogue. In "Marvel style" comicbooks, a plot is written that
>roughly covers what happens in the story and what the artist should
>draw. <snipped>
Since I'm the one who mentioned that the so-called "Marvel Style" was created
by Harry Shorten in the early 1940s, I'm very familiar with how those comics
are written...
I guess I just feel that plots are an important part of the story...and are
worthy of credit.No where have I said that it was smart to not list it as
plot... (although Awesome has done this sort of listing before)
And to go back to a comment Kurt made earlier in this thread concerning
advance solicitations, Diamond has had a consumer Previews since May 1989
shipping (and Advance Comics was one month prior to that). Before that
however, the distributors had retailor packs - which listed what comics were
coming out and yes, listed creator credits. Before the rise of the direct
market (circa 1980), Marvel and other companies gave fanzines upcoming list of
comics and their creators. In the 1980s, Marvel frequently gave out wrong
credits which retailors based their orders on. I'm certainly not arguing
(cause I'm not) that Marvel was being decietful - they had no reason to be,
things just changed. At somepoint (I can't recall off hand- Jim Shooter
administration?), Marvel listed a book by a hot artist, and he was replaced by
a non-hot artist, retailors complained loudly - and Marvel opted to make that
book refundable; and agreed to make other books refundable; based on their view
of whether the staff change was notable. Certainly during this time, it was
not unusual to find a Marvel book plotted by someone but dialogued by someone
else to be credited to the plotter in Previews. And I said earlier, I'm glad
to hear in this thread, that that has not been the case in along time.
KRothst402
>Elayne Riggs <fire...@panix.com>
>writes:
>>>>If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED by, I
>>>>would consider that a miscredit.
> Steven Rowe wrote:
>>> So being as it is "only" a PLOT,does this mean that plots are unimportant?
>Elayne responded:
>>Nowhere was this implied by anyone on this thread.
>
>ok if you SAY so, but that's certainly how I read your words "only PLOTTED"
>above. the word "only", the SHOUTED "plotted"; seem to indicate that as
>your
>belief.
>
> If a comic solicition doesn't list the inker, is it also miscredited?
>
A couple of thoughts here.
Saying "only" in the context above is not a judgement on the importance of
plots, nor do I think she meant to imply that. As comic writers on this very
thread have mentioned, the job of writing is split btw plotting and then
dialogue. By saying "only" all that is being said is that one part of the
equation has not been done by the person in question. This seems to be the
same thing as crediting someone as "artist" when they only pencilled or only
inked.
If a solicitation does not list an inker, or a writer for that matter, it is
not miscredited since no credits have been assigned to the job in question.
Justin Bacon
<niet...@elliott-coleman.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>Mr Busiek
>I really fail to see what the problem is.
>Rob has paid you for your 3 plots and if he descided to use them as toilet
>paper, then it completely up to him.
This is because your nose is firmly up Mr. Liefeld's ass and your eyes are
taking in nothing but cheek. Mr. Busiek has stated repeatedly that he has no
problem with Liefeld using the story however he chooses. He has a problem with
Liefeld using his name in a manner which he feels is incorrect.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Elayne Riggs
> writes:
>>>>If a book is solicited as being "written by" when it's only PLOTTED by, I
>>>>would consider that a miscredit.
> Steven Rowe wrote:
>>> So being as it is "only" a PLOT,does this mean that plots are unimportant?
> Elayne responded:
>>Nowhere was this implied by anyone on this thread.
> ok if you SAY so, but that's certainly how I read your words "only PLOTTED"
> above. the word "only", the SHOUTED "plotted"; seem to indicate that as your
> belief.
No, it indicates that if it's only PLOTTED it shouldn't be solicited as
Kurt having SCRIPTED as well. The distinction was capitalized because
that's the way it's being mis-solicited by Awesome, not because of any
value judgement placed on plotting vs. scripting.
- Elayne
KurtBusiek
credits which retailors based their orders on. I'm certainly not arguing
(cause I'm not) that Marvel was being decietful - they had no reason to be,
things just changed. At somepoint (I can't recall off hand- Jim Shooter
administration?), Marvel listed a book by a hot artist, and he was replaced by
a non-hot artist, retailors complained loudly - and Marvel opted to make that
book refundable; and agreed to make other books refundable; based on their view
of whether the staff change was notable. Certainly during this time, it was
not unusual to find a Marvel book plotted by someone but dialogued by someone
else to be credited to the plotter in Previews.>>
If that's what you're talking about, then yes -- it's still known to happen.
But the reson for it is simple: Between solicitation and publication,
something changed. The writer got sick. Or quit. Or was so late on other
projects he needed help on his assignments. For one reason or another, matters
changed. The publisher didn't knowingly solicit the book incorrectly, but
after solicitation, matters changed. There's no bad faith there.
The difference here is that Rob knew I wasn't going to script the book in
question at the time of solicitation. This isn't a case of him describing it
as accurately as he can and then discovering afterward that expectations no
longer hold. He knows I'm not going to script it, knew it when the solicit was
written, and knew it for a long time before that.
Teknophobe
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Teknophobe <tekno...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000907181029...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> Why not learn how to spell instead?
Who are you my english lit teacher?
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Isaac Weeks
>So what, i got two words wrong.
>Who are you my english lit teacher?
Actually, probably wouldn't hurt to learn proper sentence structure either:-)
You're missing a comma or two.
Isaac Weeks- Another example of how science is making life easier for you.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Isaac Weeks <gom...@aol.combleh> wrote in message
news:20000908083907...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
forgiven.
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Robert Carnegie
KRothst402 <kroth...@aol.com> writes
>As comic writers on this very
>thread have mentioned, the job of writing is split btw plotting and then
>dialogue. By saying "only" all that is being said is that one part of the
>equation has not been done by the person in question. This seems to be
>the
>same thing as crediting someone as "artist" when they only pencilled or
>only
>inked.
>
>If a solicitation does not list an inker, or a writer for that matter, it is
>not miscredited since no credits have been assigned to the job in
>question.
This is getting needlessly nonconfrontational. Let's jazz it up ;-)
I notice on the should-be letters page of _Wonder Woman_ #161,
new editor Tony Bedard announces that Phil Jiminez is the book's
writer/artist as of #164, with scripter J.M. DeMatteis and inker Andy
Lanning.
But I guess that _Revenge of the Green Goblin_ is entitled to say
in the small print that Roger Stern is "currently writing..._Marvel:
The Lost Generation_" - I forgot that he's co-plotting with Byrne,
according to the credits in _MTLG_ itself, as well as doing script.
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@mailexcite.com at large
--
"What unspeakable horror could have driven men of reason so mad as to
imagine themselves penguins?" (Blurb for _The Doom That Came To
Gotham_)
Justin Bacon
<niet...@elliott-coleman.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>Teknophobe <tekno...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20000907181029...@ng-md1.aol.com...
>> Why not learn how to spell instead?
>So what, i got two words wrong.
>Who are you my english lit teacher?
MEARLY
SHOUN'T
MUTHER
Looks like you need to learn how to count, too. Back to kindergarten with you.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
<niet...@elliott-coleman.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>FUCK YOU ASSHOLE, SUCK MY BIG, SWEATY HAIRY BALLS.
No thanks. I have a firm policy against sexual encounters with anything that
has an IQ lower than an amoeba.
>I WAS MEARLY POINTING OUT THAT LIEFELD IS BEING A CHILDISH >ASSHOLE AND THAT
HE SHOUN'T LOWER HIMSELF TO HIS LEVEL.
How bizarre, then, that your post was chastizing *Busiek*, not Liefeld: "Mr
Busiek I really fail to see what the problem is."
>AND IF I WAS KURT, I
>WOULD CONSIDER LEGAL ACTION.
You'd consider legal action over a problem that you "fail to see"?
>YOU DON'T KNOW ME TO SPEAK TO ME LIKE THAT MUTHER FUCKER!
I don't know what a "Muther" is, but I'm fairly sure I haven't fucked one.
(Although the image of there being someone who *does* know him well enough that
he'd blithely accept insults from them is rather bizarre.)
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Liefeld has done is wrong?
After further reseaching into the matter, I am inclined to side with Kurt.
Regardless of who is right, we both know that the series is going to be
poop!
But then again, it may not be(Perish the thought!)
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
At the deathbed of Christianity.-- Really unreflective people are now
inwardly without Christianity, and the more moderate and reflective people
of the intellectual middle class now possess only an adapted, that is to say
marvelously simplified Christianity. A god who in his love arranges
everything in a manner that in the end will be best for us; a god who gives
to us and takes from us our virtue and our happiness, so that as a whole all
is meet and fit and there is no reason for us to take life sadly, let alone
exclaim against it; in short, resignation and modest demands elevated to
godhead - that is the best and most vital thing that still remains of
Christianity. But one should notice that Christianity has thus crossed over
into a gentle moralism: it is not so much 'God, freedom and immortality'
that have remained, as benevolence and decency of disposition, and the
belief that in the whole universe too benevolence and decency of disposition
prevail: it is the euthanasia of Christianity.
from Nietzsche's Daybreak,s. 92, R.J. Hollingdale transl