REVIEWS: The X-Axis - 1 April 2001
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS - 1 April 2001
http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
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This week, god help me:-
GENERATION X #74 - "Four Days, 4 of 4"
by Brian Wood and Steve Pugh
MUTANT X 2001 - "The Key"
by Howard Mackie, James Fry and Andrew Pepoy
UNCANNY X-MEN #392 - "From The Ashes of the Past... Still Another
Genesis! - Eve of Destruction, part one"
by Scott Lobdell, Salvador Larroca, Scott Hanna and Tim
Townsend
WOLVERINE #162 - "The Hunted, part one"
by Frank Tieri, Sean Chen and Norm Rapmund
X-FORCE #113 - "Rage War, part four of four"
by Ian Edginton and Jorge Lucas
X-MEN FOREVER #5 - "Iceman - Present and Accounted For"
by Fabian Nicieza, Kevin Maguire and Andrew Pepoy
BAZOOKA JULES #1
by Neil Googe
PUNCTURE #1
by Russell Uttley and Ben Oliver
RAZORJACK #1 - "Nexus Zero"
by John Higgins
------------
This is going to take a while, but these things happen when a
new publisher launches in the same week that Marvel finally
make some headway on their backlog, which has been plaguing the
entire line and not just the X-books. They actually shipped
twelve titles this week, but let the record show that despite
allegedly having been completed for months, Daredevil #16 missed
shipping. Nice one, lads. Some would say that title could really
have done with shipping on time in order to, oh, stop it being
the laughing stock of the industry, but there you go.
Talking of running late, GENERATION X #74 finally lumbers out,
over a month overdue. This is the final part of the Four Days
storyline, and this time it's Husk's issue. Left alone in the
mansion while everyone else is out, Husk gets to appear in a ghost
story as all the lights go out, and she meets the ghosts of some
of the school's earlier pupils. One of the kids has been abused,
which is shocking, so for reasons I find difficult to comprehend,
Husk decides to go and annoy some perfectly innocent old woman to
remind her of it.
Hmm. This one nearly works, but not quite. It starts off pretty
well, with some strong atmospherics and decent characterisation
for Husk, and then falls into the old trap of just presenting us
with something nasty, and inviting us to conclude that it's a
bad thing. We already know that child abuse is a bad thing, and
the story really doesn't go anywhere beyond that rather obvious
starting point. Husk's closing actions, going to see the now-
elderly sister of the ghost child, make very little sense, since
it's far from clear what the old woman is meant to be getting out
of this, and it leaves Husk looking like a complete bastard for
needlessly dragging up somebody else's unpleasant memories just so
that she can get some closure.
Child abuse is in danger of becoming the 21st century equivalent
of the 1980s anti-drug story - gosh it's awful, thanks for your
time. There's nothing tasteless or insensitive about this issue,
but it just isn't enough to shove something like this out there
and tell us it's awful.
Rating: B
------------
MUTANT X continues to defy belief with its 2001 Annual.
Has there ever been a series so clodhopping? So inane? So poorly
structured? So ineptly plotted? So downright stupid? The
casual reader may persist in claiming that the world's worst
series is something more prominent - say, Youngblood, which was
indeed atrocious - but those of us who have sat open-mouthed
through this increasingly indefensible parade of shite know in
our hearts that we are experiencing the nadir of modern comics.
Pop quiz. You are the writer of Mutant X. (This may call for a
stiff drink, but work with me here.) In the previous issue,
perhaps due to some kind of aneurysm, you declared Havok to be the
most powerful man on the planet, blew up the moon, turned Captain
America into a raving semi-inflated lunatic, built an entire
storyline around a war between Canada and the USA without ever
explaining what they were fighting over, suddenly introduced the
Beyonder into the storyline out of nowhere, and for a final
flourish had Dracula turn up at the end to bite Havok on the neck.
What do you do for the next issue?
A. Attempt to give some kind of credible motivation to the
Canadian and US forces; dispose of the Dracula plotline as
quickly as possible; and get back to focussing on the world war
storyline with the Beyonder as an all-powerful intervener,
perhaps cribbing liberally from Nth Man. Ask whether the story
could perhaps be credited to Alan Smithee.
B. Completely ignore the entire Canada/US plot. Have the
Beyonder wandering around killing everyone in a laughably inept
attempt to establish him as a villain (while never really
explaining who he is and where he came from). Seriously try to
sell us on the idea of Havok as a character of cosmic importance.
Bring in Devil Dinosaur, Brother Voodoo and frigging Slapstick,
and still expect the scene in question to carry some dramatic
weight.
C. Flee the country. Let the editor worry about it.
Mackie has opted for B. The sheer stunning badness of this book
really does defy description. Once again, Mackie shows us is
total inability to follow through properly on a storyline, or
indeed to competently structure a plot at all.
The "next issue" trailer informs us that in Mutant X #32, "Almost
everyone else dies." Gosh, killing everyone in the final issue
of an alternate reality storyline. Who would ever have expected
such a radically off-beat ending from the searing imagination of
Howard Mackie?
I try my best, I really do, to criticise books rather than
creators in these reviews. I fully understand that all manner of
outside factors can drag down the best intentions of any
individual involved. But when you get a book this sensationally
appalling, it really is impossible to vent the appropriate level
of condemnation without it appearing to spill over into the
sphere of personal attacks. Howard Mackie, I wish to emphasise,
may well be a lovely and charming individual, fond of kittens,
and a prominent anonymous contributor to charity. My criticism
is directed solely at his writing ability, which, at the most
tactful, could be described as egregious.
In my review of the last issue, I gave it a D in sole recognition
of the fact that the art could be worse. James Fry draws this
issue, and he is worse. In fairness, the art is merely a bit
below average - it's nowhere near as poor as the writing. There
is still considerable scope for the art to fall. I was sorely
tempted to make the same allowance again in this issue, and give
the book a D. But on mature consideration, that would be
inappropriate. The writing is so bad as to bury any merit that
the other contributors may bring to the proceedings. The book
COULD be worse, but for practical purposes, this is as bad as
comics get.
I believe this may be the first time I have given out the
minimum rating of D-. Hopefully it will be the last for a long
time, but with the final issue due out next week, I fear it may
not.
Rating: D-
------------
Back in something approaching sanity, UNCANNY X-MEN kicks off the
"Eve of Destruction" storyline with a gathering-of-forces issue.
This issue runs into rather glaring conceptual problems from the
word go. Professor X has been captured by Magneto, and the X-Men
need to rescue him. Fine. But the only X-Men around are Phoenix,
Wolverine and Cyclops, so Jean has to go off and recruit a
makeshift team of complete strangers.
Er... right. Did I miss the issues where Gambit, Bishop and
Cable left the team? Maybe it's coming in the Gambit & Bishop
miniseries, but it's not out yet, and it calls for an explanation.
Where's the Beast, who evidently didn't leave with the rest of the
Claremont team, and if nothing else was still publicly
contactable as of last week? What about Archangel, Iceman or
Nightcrawler - don't any of them have telephones? Meggan? Jamie
Madrox? Polaris? You can track down a bunch of complete
strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
Now, I'm not a subscriber to the school of thought that says you
should never introduce a new character when an existing one could
be forced into the slot. But for the X-Men to resort to drafting
in a mobster and a man with transparent skin (and if that's his
only power, why bother bringing him at all?) simply makes very
little sense when there are many more obvious ways in which they
could put together an interim team.
The recruitment scenes are okay for what they are. Joanna
Cargill's role on the team does actually make reasonable sense,
since she's got some kind of knowledge that the X-Men could make
use of. Northstar's book signing is a reasonably good power-
demonstration sequence (and since his role as a prominent gay
celebrity is relevant to his relationship with one of the other
characters later in the book, it was worth establishing). Hector
Redonza, the transparent guy, gets a fairly generic "saved from
lynch mob" scene. The mobster, Paulie Provenzano, gets another
power demonstration scene, which is okay if a bit obvious. And
Sunfire's previously unmentioned sister turns up from nowhere,
which had better be a plot of some sort, since for her to turn up
from nowhere at this point is just too contrived.
It's not as strong as Lobdell's character pieces - his major
crossovers never have been - and as with some of the other recent
issues, it's marred by exceptionally contrived plotting to set up
the story they're trying to get to. Nonetheless, as gathering-of-
the-team issues go (and it's not a great formula), this isn't too
bad.
Rating: B
------------
Given the volume of material to get through, I'm going to skim
through the rest of this week's X-books...
Frank Tieri and Sean Chen start their second WOLVERINE storyline
this week. It looks to be continuing the pattern set by the
first one - hitting the right kind of tone for the book, but let
down by shaky plotting.
The issue gets off to a bad start with a particularly clunky use
of a TV news bulletin for exposition. What Tieri's trying to set
up is that there's been a series of seemingly unrelated murders,
but that the characters know they're really connected. Since
the journalists can't know that the murders are related, this
makes the news bulletin device the wrong choice, as it ends up
with Trish Tilby having to solemnly inform the reader that
tonight's top story is that a man has accidentally fallen down a
lift shaft in Connecticut. A slow news day indeed. She then
has to go on to tell us that "in unrelated news" (!), Senator
Drexel Walsh has been missing for a month. Well, how is it news
if he's been gone for a month?
Anyhow, where all this is heading is that Walsh is killed by
somebody appearing to be Wolverine, and Wolverine experiences all
this as a dream before being very worried to learn that it might
really have been him. The issue does well when it comes to the
action sequences, with Sean Chen doing strong work throughout,
and it's got a decent premise for a story, but it never really
clicks. Tieri has some sound ideas, but he's not there yet. I
could go on, but we must move on...
Rating: B-
------------
Nominally, X-FORCE #113 is the final part of the Rage War
storyline, but in fact it ends on a cliffhanger. I'm assuming
that this is the result of a last-minute rewrite to enable
everything to be tied up suitably in the next issue, clearing
decks for the new direction.
Whatever the reason, the result is decidedly confused. The book
seems to spend the first half of the story under the delusion
that it's the Authority (yes, just what we need, another book
that thinks it's the Authority), before going onto an absurdly
implausible "everything you know is wrong" routine of which the
less said, the better.
This really doesn't work. "Rage War" had looked like being the
story that would redeem the Counter-X X-Force, the one failure of
the Counter-X line, but this sends it skidding off the road. Not
a good story.
Rating: C
------------
X-MEN FOREVER concludes its trip through the history of the Marvel
Universe and sets itself up for the big concluding fight. As
always, the strength of this series lies in Kevin Maguire's
consistently excellent artwork, and the character work that
Nicieza has been carrying out on characters like the Toad.
The main criticisms of this series have been that it's been just
too densely packed with continuity (which I can understand, but
it's no longer an issue by this point), and that it just hasn't
been clear what the characters have been trying to achieve. I'd
tend to agree in retrospect that the structure of the first few
issues would have been helped by making it somewhat clearer to
the readers, if not the characters, what the imminent threat was
meant to be. By this point, however, the test will be whether
the final issue works to draw together the innumerable points
Nicieza has raised into a coherent whole.
As always, I'm not going to rate this book, since I did some of
the continuity research for the series and I'm hopelessly biased.
I've been enjoying it, though I recognise that at times it will
have been heavy going for readers less familiar with the X-Men
mythos.
------------
The new British publisher Com.X launches this week, to what seems
so far to have been a resounding chorus of indifference. Since
there was a signficant level of advance interest in the books
in places like the Warren Ellis Forum, actually, I'm wondering
whether they somehow turned up in my store a week early.
Anyhow, whatever the story is, there's three new books here,
so I'll review them. Two of the books are going for the dark,
surreal and mildly confusing angle. They're coming up later.
But first, BAZOOKA JULES, the book that Com.X would like to assure
is not Tank Girl. Honest. Nothing like her.
It might legitimately be questioned whether comics really has a
need for another book with a female protagonist who carries
enormous guns and has absurdly large tits. In fairness, though,
the absurdity here is deliberate. The gag is that Jules starts
off perfectly normal and gets transformed into a "bad girl"
character through a variation on the old "phrasing your three
wishes wrong" routine. In theory this might mean that the book
is going to actually be a commentary on the bad girl genre. In
practice, I suspect it's going to be nothing of the sort - it's
a book with its tongue planted firmly in its cheek.
Com.X, for those of you who aren't aware, belongs to Neil Googe,
Russell Uttley and Ed Deighton, comics fans whose background is
in graphic design or something along those lines. (Certainly
their books, and their website, score very highly in design
terms.) This makes them either self-publishers with an unusually
large amount of money to throw around, or the most expensive
vanity press exercise in recent comics history. Bazooka Jules
is almost all the work of Neil Googe - it's all his work aside
from Leonard O'Grady's colouring (which is suitably bright).
The artwork is pretty impressive. It's a nice balance between
cartoon and realism, with a good solid feel to it, and sound
storytelling. Googe apologises in the editorial for the
continuity errors, but since these are mainly on the level of
teleporting wristwatches, it's hardly distracting. He does
insist on giving Jules a drastically excessive smile from time
to time, which really doesn't work at all and gives her an
inappropriately masculine chinline to boot, but aside from that
the art's very solid.
The writing needs a bit more work, as Googe seems to be falling
into the trap of hammering home his story more blatantly than he
needs to. This is a simple story, told in a parallel structure.
Jules lives normal, teenage girl life. Meanwhile, superhero-type
thief Eddie Daytona steals a thingie, and gets chased by the
baddies as a result. The two plots intersect, Eddie gives Jules
the thingie, and things go off the rails for her as a result.
The point is to contrast Jules having a normal life with Eddie
having a superhero-type life, and the parallel structure works
well to get that across.
Consequently, the book does not benefit from giving Jules
dialogue like "I'm Jules, 16 year old schoolgirl, and my life's
pretty much the same as every other 16 year old. Boring." The
book was already showing us that, far more subtly and effectively,
and clubbing the reader over the head with it doesn't help. The
basic rule, even in a book as fundamentally unsubtle as this,
is "Show, don't tell." Googe is showing everything perfectly well,
and he need't tell us this stuff at all - let alone set up an
overhead projector and deliver a lecture about the plot, which
is what dialogue like that amounts to. There are worse things to
do than err on the side of caution, but Googe should have more
confidence in his storytelling abilities, since they're actually
up to the task on their own.
There are a couple of forced moments that don't sit quite well
with the structure. Having Jules wear a miniskirted schoolgirl
uniform when her school doesn't have a uniform isn't a very good
joke to start with, but moreover it doesn't fit the idea that
she's normal until she gets dragged into the plot. Also, Com.X
still don't seem to have sorted out the proofreading problems
that plagued their Zero Issue last spring - punctuation errors
abound. Punctuation affects the pacing of dialogue, so it's
not just a nitpicking point.
Despite its flaws, and the fact that it's in possibly the most
low-rent genre in comics today, this is actually a rather
endearing book. Shamelessly adolescent (and let's be honest,
even with normal size breasts Jules is a total geek fantasy
figure), but if nothing else, it knows the tone it's aiming for
and it hits it nicely. Energy carries it past a lot of its
problems.
Rating: B+
------------
PUNCTURE is Russell Uttley's contribution to the Com.X starting
line-up, with art by Ben Oliver. The general reaction to this
one in the Zero Issue was "What the hell was that meant to be
about?" The first issue of this series does actually clarify
matters considerably, but remains skating on the verge of being
off-puttingly hard work.
This is a particularly designery comic. It opens with three
pages of semi-abstract images in limited colours, complete
with the sort of typography you see in design magazines. The
content of the text is practically begging me to describe it as
pretentious ("Insidiously she whispes, tickling awareness,
tendrils chattering amongst the night. Trickling amongst her
children, undermining the comfort of a defined existence."), but
oddly it more or less holds together with the stylised art.
The concept - which is more hinted at than explained is
something to do with there being an enzyme in the human
bloodstream, put there by some creatures we did a deal with in
the seventh century BC. The first issue is split between the
present and the past, and the relevance of the present sequences
to this concept isn't altogether obvious. They mainly concern
the lead character wandering around a rather unpleasant looking
city using unexplained superpowers to make people bleed.
This is one of those book's that's next to impossible to review
on the strength of the first issue alone, since at this stage
it's a deliberately confusing tone piece, and whether the story
works will depend largely on whether there's a decent explanation
in store for down the road. The mood is established effectively,
though the book teeters on the verge of taking itself far too
seriously. This is a (consciously) humourless story, and stories
like that always carry the risk that if they don't come off,
they look really dumb. It's a risky approach and you've got to
admire the nerve in trying something as odd as this as a launch
title. Whether it works remains to be seen.
I'm going for a conservative rating with this one, but bear in
mind that with books like this, rating them is an even more
pointless exercise than usual.
Rating: B+
------------
RAZORJACK is the third Com.X launch title, but it's actually by
John Higgins. It previously appeared, with a totally different
story, in an abortive self-published book from a few years back.
This time, it's a two-issue miniseries in prestige format.
This one's rather heavy going as well, not because the story is
particularly complex so much as because Higgins has used an
enormous amount of invented jargon to explain the plot, and it
takes a bit of effort to decipher. Lots of babbling about
dims, twists and veils here, which more or less makes sense after
a few readings, but makes it a hell of a job on the first time
through.
More parallel structure here (obviously something that Com.X are
unusually fond of). The story takes place simultaneously in
the Core Dim (that's Earth - see what I mean?) and the Twist Dim
(a more surreal world which is kind of like hell). There's
apparently another ten Dims out there, which we don't get to
see. Razorjack is a satanic figure in the Twist Dim who's
looking to invade Earth. Meanwhile, on Earth, some police officers
investigate a series of killings, and there's a cult involved
somewhere.
To be honest, even after a few reads, it's still something of a
blur to me, though you get the general idea. There are some
nice ideas here - there's something suitably alien about the
Twist's inhabitants being depicted as celtic figures with
Jamaican accents. Higgins has also given his villains an
uncomfortably misogynistic streak which is actually rather more
unsettling than any of this stuff about with bone castles.
Horror isn't really my thing, and I can't really get into this -
not that it's a particularly easy book to get into anyway.
Interesting if you like that kind of thing, but it doesn't do
much for me.
Rating: B
------------
Also this week:
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #29 - Well, I found a copy, and gosh, isn't my
life better for it? Precisely what you'd expect - Spider-Man
finds Mary Jane, with the thinnest of plot justifications, and
meets the villain, who helpfully regales us with an origin
flashback. Going through the motions. C
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2001 - Having brought Mary Jane back, the
creators decide to pack her off to spend some time apart. I hope
this is leading somewhere, since "divorced Spider-Man" doesn't
strike me as a great improvement on "widowed Spider-Man." Far
from subtle, to put it mildly, but okay for what it is. B-
AVENGERS #40 - Our heroes defeat the giant Greek Hulk by flying in
a plot device from the United States. Lovely art from Alan Davis,
though, and Busiek keeps his character arcs ticking over nicely
while throwing in some cute action spots. Unfortunately, the
Hulk/Diablo storyline that's been acting as a backdrop to all
this is decidedly underwhelming. B+
DAREDEVIL: NINJA #3 - God, I'd forgotten about this thing.
Daredevil gets into a big fight at the airport, and then the
supporting cast wander off to resolve the storyline in the coda,
leaving me to wonder what on earth the point of the series was
meant to be. Good moments, but nothing particularly special. B
DEADPOOL #52 - In fairness to Palmiotti and Scalera, their run
on this book does seem to be achieving some degree of consistency.
Unfortunately, the story really does kind of rely on you finding
killer Catholic schoolgirls an inherently entertaining concept,
rather than just a rather dull one. Adequate, nonetheless. B-
GREEN ARROW #2 - Shifting to traditional narrative this issue,
Kevin Smith shows us Green Arrow returning to work in Star City,
apparently unaware that any time has passed. Quite how he's
failed to notice this isn't immediately apparent to me (hasn't
he switched on the news at all since he got back?), and gives me
more than a few problems with the concept. Smith's also still
assuming a level of familiarity with the character that his own
fanbase probably doesn't have (having omitted to name Connor last
issue, he expects us to recognise the name this time round).
Some excellent dialogue, as you'd expect from a Kevin Smith comic,
but so far there's nothing to put this in the same league as his
Daredevil run. B+
INCREDIBLE HULK #26 - The Killer Shrike has a go at wandering
around small towns pulling off minor robberies, and blunders into
the savage Hulk. Meanwhile, the narrator ponders just how much of
the story the Hulk is following, essentially asking whether he's
a character or just a plot device for others to react to. I have
a nagging suspicion that in this case, the latter is correct.
Still, a strong character piece for the Killer Shrike, and god
knows you can't say that very often. B+
JLA #52 - Bryan Hitch actually draws an issue, reminding me in
the process why it is that I'm still buying this book despite
not being particularly interested in any of the characters or
most of the stories. Some nice ideas here, though, and it makes
a decent showcase for Hitch. But to be honest, I'm looking
forward to Hitch moving onto another book I might actually care
about. B
SUPERSTAR: AS SEEN ON TV - A Gorilla project eventually ending up
at Image. Busiek and Immonen do a story about a superhero whose
power levels depend on the number of donations he gets, and who
therefore has to continually compromise to maximise his
popularity. It's an interesting set-up which could make for a
decent series, and Immonen's artwork is always enjoyable. A-
ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM-UP #2 - The Hulk says Hulk Smash a lot.
Spider-Man does the same "gosh, I'm a novice" routine that he did
in his last two Bendis stories. And that's your book. Potentially
of interest to somebody who has no previous familiarity with
either character. Which I suppose is the point. But for those of
us who've seen it all before, this adds nothing to the same old
same old. Two strikes... C
USER #3 - Meg finally takes some action in the real world, and
then is given some kind of closure while never seeming to address
her fairly glaring mental health problems. A rather confused
ending to the series, as Meg is brought into real-world contact
with other players and apparently finds happiness in babbling
on about computer games. This is presumably meant to try and
suggest that she's resolved some of her conflicts, but in fact
she does nothing of the sort. Grayson's paean to the joys of
role-playing leaves me unconvinced, and ends up trying to
romanticise all Meg's flaws in lieu of actually addressing them.
C+
------------
Next week, the Dark Sisterhood storyline continues in Cable #91;
Ultimate X-Men #4 comes out; and in a real "sharpen those knives"
bit of scheduling, Mutant X and Gambit & Bishop both conclude in
the same week. Oh yes.
The late books list, as of next week, stands at a still rather
embarrassing six books - Blink #4, Excalibur #4, Generation X #75,
Uncanny X-Men #393, X-Men #112 and X-Men: The Hidden Years #19.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
Enthusiasm is an untrustworthy dictionary.
Alan David Doane
<pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>MUTANT X continues to defy belief with its 2001 Annual.
>
>Has there ever been a series so clodhopping? So inane? So poorly
>structured? So ineptly plotted? So downright stupid?
<snip>
>I try my best, I really do, to criticise books rather than
>creators in these reviews. I fully understand that all manner of
>outside factors can drag down the best intentions of any
>individual involved. But when you get a book this sensationally
>appalling, it really is impossible to vent the appropriate level
>of condemnation without it appearing to spill over into the
>sphere of personal attacks.
Jesus, yes, and you're a much better man than I am in the even tone of
your criticism. Mutant X, over the past five months I've sampled it,
has got to be the most criminally awful waste of innocent trees I have
experienced in years.
Gambit and Bishop ain't far behind, and the relief from the fact that
they both conclude in the same week is almost as enormous as the
insult deriving from the fact that yes, they will both have new issues
on the stands in the same week.
Alan David Doane
Editor-in-Chief
Comic Book Galaxy
Usenet's 8th Favourite Comics Web Site
http://www.comicbookgalaxy.com
Justin Samuels
"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1q98a9...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk...
>
------------
>
> Back in something approaching sanity, UNCANNY X-MEN kicks off the
> "Eve of Destruction" storyline with a gathering-of-forces issue.
>
> This issue runs into rather glaring conceptual problems from the
> word go. Professor X has been captured by Magneto, and the X-Men
> need to rescue him. Fine. But the only X-Men around are Phoenix,
> Wolverine and Cyclops, so Jean has to go off and recruit a
> makeshift team of complete strangers.
>
> Er... right. Did I miss the issues where Gambit, Bishop and
> Cable left the team? Maybe it's coming in the Gambit & Bishop
> miniseries, but it's not out yet, and it calls for an explanation.
Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties with the
X-Men and it has been mentioned in spoilers for his own book.
> Where's the Beast, who evidently didn't leave with the rest of the
> Claremont team, and if nothing else was still publicly
> contactable as of last week? What about Archangel, Iceman or
> Nightcrawler - don't any of them have telephones? Meggan? Jamie
> Madrox? Polaris? You can track down a bunch of complete
> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
>
> Now, I'm not a subscriber to the school of thought that says you
> should never introduce a new character when an existing one could
> be forced into the slot. But for the X-Men to resort to drafting
> in a mobster and a man with transparent skin (and if that's his
> only power, why bother bringing him at all?) simply makes very
> little sense when there are many more obvious ways in which they
> could put together an interim team.
Considering they have had terrorists, thieves, world destroyers and
everything else for members, why not a mobster?
>
> The recruitment scenes are okay for what they are. Joanna
> Cargill's role on the team does actually make reasonable sense,
> since she's got some kind of knowledge that the X-Men could make
> use of. Northstar's book signing is a reasonably good power-
> demonstration sequence (and since his role as a prominent gay
> celebrity is relevant to his relationship with one of the other
> characters later in the book, it was worth establishing). Hector
> Redonza, the transparent guy, gets a fairly generic "saved from
> lynch mob" scene. The mobster, Paulie Provenzano, gets another
> power demonstration scene, which is okay if a bit obvious. And
> Sunfire's previously unmentioned sister turns up from nowhere,
> which had better be a plot of some sort, since for her to turn up
> from nowhere at this point is just too contrived.
No it isn't Sunfire was never that open about his family, and he was never a
friend of the other X-men so it makes sense there would be much we didn't
know about his family. And he sister's mutant powers may have only
manifested a few years ago.
Brian Hance
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1q98a9...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk...
>> Er... right. Did I miss the issues where Gambit, Bishop and
>> Cable left the team? Maybe it's coming in the Gambit & Bishop
>> miniseries, but it's not out yet, and it calls for an explanation.
>Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties with the
>X-Men and it has been mentioned in spoilers for his own book.
Where would a person who only reads the core X-Books learn this
though? One line of exposition, or a nice handy editorial note would
have explained this nicely.
>> Where's the Beast, who evidently didn't leave with the rest of the
>> Claremont team, and if nothing else was still publicly
>> contactable as of last week? What about Archangel, Iceman or
>> Nightcrawler - don't any of them have telephones? Meggan? Jamie
>> Madrox? Polaris? You can track down a bunch of complete
>> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
>Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
Why? Why would it be a better idea to go get a bunch of strangers
when you have people who ablities and characters are known quantities,
as opposed to a bunch of wild cards?
Justin Samuels
"Brian Hance" <bha...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:3ac945ab...@news.primenet.com...
> On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 07:26:32 GMT, "Justin Samuels"
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:1q98a9...@enzym.rnd.uni-c.dk...
>
> >> Er... right. Did I miss the issues where Gambit, Bishop and
> >> Cable left the team? Maybe it's coming in the Gambit & Bishop
> >> miniseries, but it's not out yet, and it calls for an explanation.
>
> >Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties with
the
> >X-Men and it has been mentioned in spoilers for his own book.
>
> Where would a person who only reads the core X-Books learn this
> though? One line of exposition, or a nice handy editorial note would
> have explained this nicely.
Bishop left to be with Storm's team in the core X-Men.
>
> >> Where's the Beast, who evidently didn't leave with the rest of the
> >> Claremont team, and if nothing else was still publicly
> >> contactable as of last week? What about Archangel, Iceman or
> >> Nightcrawler - don't any of them have telephones? Meggan? Jamie
> >> Madrox? Polaris? You can track down a bunch of complete
> >> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
>
> >Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
>
> Why? Why would it be a better idea to go get a bunch of strangers
> when you have people who ablities and characters are known quantities,
> as opposed to a bunch of wild cards?
But perhaps she wanted people with the abilities of those strangers she
recruited?
>
DivineShadow666
when you have people who ablities and characters are known quantities,
as opposed to a bunch of wild cards? >>
Strangers make better cannon fodder. :)
Ken Dreger
<pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>BAZOOKA JULES #1
> by Neil Googe
>
>PUNCTURE #1
> by Russell Uttley and Ben Oliver
>
>RAZORJACK #1 - "Nexus Zero"
> by John Higgins
> ------------
>
>The new British publisher Com.X launches this week, to what seems
>so far to have been a resounding chorus of indifference. Since
>there was a signficant level of advance interest in the books
>in places like the Warren Ellis Forum, actually, I'm wondering
>whether they somehow turned up in my store a week early.
Actually, I pre-ordered Puncture but I didn't see it last week and
it's not on Diamnod's shipping list for this week. Argh?
Anyone know what's up? Anyone else not get it in?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Comic News, 'A Week in Review', and other self-involved tripe:
http://www.comicgeek.ca
Kyle Moyer
Justin Samuels wrote in message ...
>> Why? Why would it be a better idea to go get a bunch of strangers
>> when you have people who ablities and characters are known quantities,
>> as opposed to a bunch of wild cards?
>But perhaps she wanted people with the abilities of those strangers she
>recruited?
Exactly, because someone with invisible skin is very helpful, and it's hard
to find big strong indestructible super heroes in the Marvel Universe.
DarkAndrewX5
>first one - hitting the right kind of tone for the book, but let
>down by shaky plotting.
That's for sure. A United States Senator is missing for a month and they don't
even think to look for him in his own home?
The senator tells his bodyguard to leave him when he's very clearly worried
about his safety (and particularly, the attack comes seconds later). Beast
gets up right after Wolverine slashes him, attributing it to the fact that "he
heals twice as fast as any normal human being". I don't know any normal human
beings who could heal from three bloody slashes in the abdomen in thirty
seconds.
Plus, that whole "Smithers" thing was way too obvious, and I feel that it
detracted from the suspenseful mood Tieri was trying to create. It's a bit
distracting to have the main character scream out, "Smithers, I need you
Smithers!" in the middle of what is supposed to be a big, mysterious, and
important scene.
I did like that Sabretooth got the adamantium back, though.
>X-FORCE #113
The first page was good. That's what X-Force is all about. An interesting
spin on the "X" theme (humanity wants to eXamine, eXclude, and eXterminate)
that should have been gone into further. Unfortunately, the issue does nothing
of the sort since the next twelve pages were a big, gratuitous fight scene that
really could have been shortened.
>before going onto an absurdly
>implausible "everything you know is wrong" routine of which the
>less said, the better.
Edginton doesn't seem to like foreshadowing very much. Every "big, shocking
revelation" in this issue comes completely out of left field. Okay, if Roman
is really a good guy then why did he sneak up behind Pete Wisdom and shoot him
in the head? The Valentina we've been reading about for the past three issues
was apparently an LMD, and SHIELD must really make them well since there were
absolutely no hints whatsoever that "this might not be the Valentina we know .
. ."
>X-MEN FOREVER
>I've been enjoying it,
As have I, but this issue was definitely the weakest of the series. The visit
to the future and the big fight with Prosh seemed very out of place. This
series hasn't had any gratutious fight scenes (or any fight scenes at all,
really) so I suppose we were due for one. The Iceman power stuff and the big
revelation were great, though. So really, even though this was the weakest
issue of the series, it's still the best X-book of the week (proving that
Nicieza on a bad day is preferable to Lobdell on a good one).
Jeremy Turner
> Bishop left to be with Storm's team in the core X-Men.
According to the Bishop and Gambit limited series, Bishop stayed behind.
Paul O'Brien
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
>
>Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties with the
>X-Men and it has been mentioned in spoilers for his own book.
Not really the point. I know they're leaving, but it HASN'T BEEN IN
THIS BOOK. As far as readers of the X-Men titles are concerned,
half the team has upped and disappeared with no explanation. It's
not good enough to say "Oh, they're in a miniseries we haven't
mentioned", it's not good enough to say "Oh, he's leaving in an issue
of another series that's been delayed" and it's CERTAINLY not good
enough to say "Oh, I know they're leaving, I read it in Previews."
>You can track down a bunch of complete
>> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
>
>Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
The story gives her no reason not to contact them. When the
character adopts an apparently silly course of action rather than
an obvious and sensible one, the story needs to give her a
rationale. It fails to do so.
The fact that it CAN be explained is no excuse for the fact that it
was not explained.
>Considering they have had terrorists, thieves, world destroyers and
>everything else for members, why not a mobster?
Because the terrorist had come to them begging for help, the thief
was an existing ally of Storm for some time in advance, and the
world destroyer was an existing member (as they saw it at the time)
who had gone mad.
>No it isn't Sunfire was never that open about his family,
Except that time he took the X-Men all back to his place, which is
when Wolverine met Mariko?
Paul O'Brien
<darkan...@aol.com> writes
>
>That's for sure. A United States Senator is missing for a month and they don't
>even think to look for him in his own home?
In fairness, I'm not sure it's actually established that he's in his
OWN home.
>I did like that Sabretooth got the adamantium back, though.
Bleh. It's cheap, and it screws with Sabretooth's gimmick as the
"more bestial version of Wolverine." He doesn't NEED the claws. It
was a crap idea when Larry Hama turned him into a cyborg (something
never mentioned since, and I choose to believe it's been reversed
somewhere along the line), and it's still not a good idea now.
Problem is, Sabretooth's been overexposed. Villains have to lose
most of the time, and it's damaged his mystique as Wolverine's
supposedly superior arch-enemy. What they should be doing is
building up Sabretooth's image as a serious opponent for Wolverine
again, not copping out and turning him into Wolverine Lite.
23yrold3yrold
news:es1y6.1192$4n.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Brian Hance" <bha...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> news:3ac945ab...@news.primenet.com...
> > On Mon, 02 Apr 2001 07:26:32 GMT, "Justin Samuels"
> > <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties
with
> >
> > Where would a person who only reads the core X-Books learn this
> > though? One line of exposition, or a nice handy editorial note would
> > have explained this nicely.
>
> Bishop left to be with Storm's team in the core X-Men.
But not in Bishop and Gambit. Lobdell is writing both that and the core
books; you'd think he'd explain that. You can say Cable "apparently" severed
ties, but I haven't seen it. And still doesn't explain Gambit. Lobdell's
core book plots so far have had a fair number of holes.
> > >Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
> >
> > Why? Why would it be a better idea to go get a bunch of strangers
> > when you have people who ablities and characters are known quantities,
> > as opposed to a bunch of wild cards?
>
> But perhaps she wanted people with the abilities of those strangers she
> recruited?
It would be nice to explain that. But it still doesn't wash; if she wants
someone with super-speed, Quicksilver is the brain-dead obvious choice.
--
Chris Barry
"After all, when one is serving bait, presentation is everything." -
Megatron
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John B 821
Moyer" <kyle...@earthlink.net> writes:
>Exactly, because someone with invisible skin is very helpful,
Sure. Bad guys take one look at him and get nauseated.
Brian Fried
In fairness, Paul, a reader of just the core books might assume that
everyone except Wolverine, Gambit, Jean and Cable left with Storm. Gambit
is known to have his solo book, and may be off on another adventure -
since the Claremont issues made it quite clear that was a worry for the
X-Men. Plus, after "Dream's End," Cable made it quite clear that he was
not suited for the X-Men and -- before that -- that he was only there to
stand in his missing father's place. Cyclops is back, you do the math.
Plus, Nightcrawler retired in X-MEN UNLIMITED and Kitty in X-MEN #111.
That still leaves a hell of a lot of X-Men left, though, and I think this
is where the real criticism should lie. Of all X-Men, where are Forge and
Multiple Man? Both were last seen *ON GENOSHA*!
Similarly, the mansion was last seen with Moonstar and Reyes in it.
Archangel, Iceman and Polaris were last in NYC, and at least two are
active reserves for the X-Men. Why weren't they contacted?
The biggest question about this issue, though, is whether this week's
X-FORCE hints of another "Scorched Earth" ending that will make
Cannonball, Meltdown, Proudstar, Domino and Bedlam unusable for the next
while at least.
---
Re: GREEN ARROW #2
I wante dto post this last month, but ran out of login time. Paul: you're
in the minority when it comes to a lack of knowledge about Green arrow.
Unlike a character such as, say, The Spectre, Green Arrow HAS a following.
DC knows that Green arrow fans have been quite vocal about the
disappearance of the book over two years ago to make room for this one.
But more importantly, each of the figures around Green Arrow has been the
star of a major relaunch since. Connor is Connor Hawke, aka the new Green
Arrow, his son, and the star of JLA #6 and 7 -- or was it 8 and 9? --
which were big sellers for DC. Dinah Lance, aka Black Canary, is the star
of BIRDS OF PREY (one of DC's most underrated books which is well hyped by
Wizard and other mags) *and* the new JSA, which sells better than expected.
Roy, his former pupil, is now Arsenal, part of THE TITANS -- another big
seller for DC. Considering the strength of its team books in relative
proportion to the rest of its books, having three team members talk about
Ollie would be recognisable figures to a good chunk of DC's readership.
To his credit, though, Smith works best when communicating relationships.
You don't have to know the Black Widow to get the relationship she has/had
with Daredevil. Similarly, Smith is able to get us inside the characters
of this story without having to pause for exposition, which seems a much
stronger attraction for those even mildly aware of the DCU. Exposition
would clunk the story up.
Robert
>
> In article <20010402162326...@ng-fo1.aol.com>, DarkAndrewX5
> <darkan...@aol.com> writes
> >
> >That's for sure. A United States Senator is missing for a month and they don't
> >even think to look for him in his own home?
>
> In fairness, I'm not sure it's actually established that he's in his
> OWN home.
>
> >I did like that Sabretooth got the adamantium back, though.
>
> Bleh. It's cheap, and it screws with Sabretooth's gimmick as the
> "more bestial version of Wolverine." He doesn't NEED the claws. It
> was a crap idea when Larry Hama turned him into a cyborg (something
> never mentioned since, and I choose to believe it's been reversed
> somewhere along the line), and it's still not a good idea now.
>
A cyborg? You mean in the Sabretooth LS? All he did was give him
enhanced strength, and the story stated that the effects were likely to
be temporary anyway, IIRC.
BartSimsn4
helpful he could be.
BartSimsn4
The Masses
>
>
> >It would be nice to explain that. But it still doesn't wash; if she wants
> >someone with super-speed, Quicksilver is the brain-dead obvious choice.
Not only that, but Northstar (IIRC) isn't a mutant at all... maybe she
needed someone with non-mutant powers in case Magneto whipped out some kind
of power neutralizer or something....?
happy gilmore
23yrold3yrold
news:pkcy6.130222$W05.25...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> > Not really because Northstar has super speed, plus he can fly.
Still isn't explained. We're just trying to extract a plot from this. Last I
checked that was ol' Scottie's job.
> Not only that, but Northstar (IIRC) isn't a mutant at all...
You sure about that? I honestly don't know for sure, but I thought he was.
Justin Samuels
> In article <IQVx6.1179$4n.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>, Justin Samuels
> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
> >
> >Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties with
the
> >X-Men and it has been mentioned in spoilers for his own book.
>
> Not really the point. I know they're leaving, but it HASN'T BEEN IN
> THIS BOOK. As far as readers of the X-Men titles are concerned,
> half the team has upped and disappeared with no explanation. It's
> not good enough to say "Oh, they're in a miniseries we haven't
> mentioned", it's not good enough to say "Oh, he's leaving in an issue
> of another series that's been delayed" and it's CERTAINLY not good
> enough to say "Oh, I know they're leaving, I read it in Previews."
Well, the real deal is that since we will have a massive change in
direction, the writer decided to do a repeat of the all new, all different
X-Men.
>
> >You can track down a bunch of complete
> >> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
> >
> >Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
>
> The story gives her no reason not to contact them. When the
> character adopts an apparently silly course of action rather than
> an obvious and sensible one, the story needs to give her a
> rationale. It fails to do so.
Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally silly, as
Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or simply
asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
It's just a comic book, stop taking things so seriously.
>
> The fact that it CAN be explained is no excuse for the fact that it
> was not explained.
>
> >Considering they have had terrorists, thieves, world destroyers and
> >everything else for members, why not a mobster?
>
> Because the terrorist had come to them begging for help,
So?
the thief
> was an existing ally of Storm for some time in advance,
An ally because they were both hunted by the same person, and must have
known each other for al of two weeks if not less before he joined the X-Men.
and the
> world destroyer was an existing member (as they saw it at the time)
> who had gone mad.
They still defended her. Oh, and right after she wakes up from her coma
Xavier makes the White Queen headmistress of Gen X. They take in Revanche
even after they know she has been an assasin(ditto for Psylocke).
Wolverine's shady past was known as well.
>
> >No it isn't Sunfire was never that open about his family,
>
> Except that time he took the X-Men all back to his place, which is
> when Wolverine met Mariko?
Well, I've had freinds come by my place, and they didn't meet half of my
family or learn how many relatives I've had.
Royce
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7isWFDA+...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <IQVx6.1179$4n.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>, Justin Samuels
>> <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
>> >
>> >Bishop left to be with Storm's team. Cable apparently severed ties with
>the
>> >X-Men and it has been mentioned in spoilers for his own book.
>>
>> Not really the point. I know they're leaving, but it HASN'T BEEN IN
>> THIS BOOK. As far as readers of the X-Men titles are concerned,
>> half the team has upped and disappeared with no explanation. It's
>> not good enough to say "Oh, they're in a miniseries we haven't
>> mentioned", it's not good enough to say "Oh, he's leaving in an issue
>> of another series that's been delayed" and it's CERTAINLY not good
>> enough to say "Oh, I know they're leaving, I read it in Previews."
>
>Well, the real deal is that since we will have a massive change in
>direction, the writer decided to do a repeat of the all new, all different
>X-Men.
Yeah, that's what he wanted to do, but the premise falls through the
gaping plot hole of "why didn't Jean call [blank]?" Bending over
backwards to repeat a past story, logic be damned, has negatively
affected the story. The only logical explanation is "Jean's a
dumbass", and I don't think that's what Lobdell wants to tell us. ;-)
>> >You can track down a bunch of complete
>> >> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
>> >
>> >Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
>>
>> The story gives her no reason not to contact them. When the
>> character adopts an apparently silly course of action rather than
>> an obvious and sensible one, the story needs to give her a
>> rationale. It fails to do so.
>
>Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally silly, as
>Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or simply
>asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
All of whom could have, logically, been busy at the time. The
problem here is that there are literally dozens and dozens of mutants
out there for Jean to recruit from. All of them are easier to locate
than these rookies. As a result, we're left with "Jean's a dumbass".
:-D
Ryan
23yrold3yrold
>
>
> Well, the real deal is that since we will have a massive change in
> direction, the writer decided to do a repeat of the all new, all different
> X-Men.
Why bother if that's the only reason?
> Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally silly,
as
> Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or simply
> asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
Which isn't true. Xavier was influenced by Krakoa to gather mutants like so
many tasty munchies.
> It's just a comic book, stop taking things so seriously.
Who's taking things too seriously? Paul reviewed the book; it's what he
does. If the plot has holes (and it does) he'll say so. Simple.
FabNic
place. This
series hasn't had any gratutious fight scenes (or any fight scenes at all,
really) so I suppose we were due for one.
Please, I had to give Kevin SOMETHING fun to draw! ;-)
--fabian
Steven Dumont
Robert wrote:
> A cyborg? You mean in the Sabretooth LS? All he did was give him
> enhanced strength, and the story stated that the effects were likely to
> be temporary anyway, IIRC.
If I recall correctly, they implanted hydraulics into his body to give
him enhanced strength. Another very bad power up.
Steve
Paul O'Brien
Doane <alandav...@yahoo.communication.breakdown> writes
>
>Jesus, yes, and you're a much better man than I am in the even tone of
>your criticism. Mutant X, over the past five months I've sampled it,
>has got to be the most criminally awful waste of innocent trees I have
>experienced in years.
Well, you don't get the Daily Mail in North America.
Paul O'Brien
<kend...@canoemail.com> writes
>
>Actually, I pre-ordered Puncture but I didn't see it last week and
>it's not on Diamnod's shipping list for this week. Argh?
If it had come out throughout Britain, I'm sure there would have been
some discussion on the Warren Ellis Forum if nowhere else - hell,
they generated a fifty-post thread in response to the preview issue.
I can only assume that the books turned up early in my store for some
reason, but I cannot for the life of me think why that might be.
Paul O'Brien
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
>It's just a comic book, stop taking things so seriously.
Ah, the good old "It's a comic, it's allowed to be shit" defence.
It isn't.
DarkAndrewX5
>don't
>> >even think to look for him in his own home?
>>
>> In fairness, I'm not sure it's actually established that he's in his
>> OWN home.
"Walsh was found murdered tonight at his summer home in upstate New York . . ."
Well, his summer home is still a fairly obvious place to look.
DarkAndrewX5
>> "more bestial version of Wolverine." He doesn't NEED the claws.
But Wolverine has beaten him so many times when he had the adamantium and
Sabretooth didn't. It was interesting in the beginning when he was "bigger,
faster, stronger" but Wolverine defeated him so many times since then, the
original gimmick has kind of worn off. When Claremont had his aborted
Wolverine run a few years ago he wanted to re-establish Sabretooth as the guy
Wolverine could never beat, the one who was better than "the best there is".
Since Wolverine had beaten him easily so many times recently, it would be
rather implausible for Sabretooth to suddenly start winning the fights with no
explanation. So then the adamantium comes in, and re-establishes Sabretooth as
the man to beat.
DarkAndrewX5
Well, it was interesting to look at, with those hundreds of Proshes everywhere.
I did love the rest of the series and am anxiously awaiting next issue. Very
interesting villain choice. Has he been used since those old Uncanny issues?
Dave Groening
Which is right up there with the "It's TV, it's allowed to be braindead"
defence, and the "It's a Disney cartoon, it's allowed to rip off the great
stories" defence...
CleV
wrote:
>"The Masses" <ha...@unforgettable.com> wrote in message
>news:pkcy6.130222$W05.25...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
>> > Not really because Northstar has super speed, plus he can fly.
>Still isn't explained. We're just trying to extract a plot from this. Last I
>checked that was ol' Scottie's job.
>> Not only that, but Northstar (IIRC) isn't a mutant at all...
>You sure about that? I honestly don't know for sure, but I thought he was.
I believe the retcon has been retconned. Northstar is a mutant.
23yrold3yrold
news:3aca421a...@news.balcab.ch...
And don't I feel stupid; that was actually mentioned in 392; "They love me,
not because I am gay, or because I am a mutant ....."
F®eud
23yrold3yrold wrote:
> > Not only that, but Northstar (IIRC) isn't a mutant at all...
>
> You sure about that? I honestly don't know for sure, but I thought he was.
He was... and then he wasn't... hell, he could be again and we missed it.
F®eud
23yrold3yrold wrote:
> "CleV" <CL...@balJUNKcab.ch> wrote in message
> news:3aca421a...@news.balcab.ch...
> > On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:56:58 -0500, "23yrold3yrold" <cba...@pangea.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> Not only that, but Northstar (IIRC) isn't a mutant at all...
> >
> > >You sure about that? I honestly don't know for sure, but I thought he
> was.
> >
> > I believe the retcon has been retconned. Northstar is a mutant.
>
> And don't I feel stupid; that was actually mentioned in 392; "They love me,
> not because I am gay, or because I am a mutant ....."
Was that the official retcon or did it happen somewhere else first?
Craig
of disbelief is called for" defense? You like that any better?
"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Gcx5aEAL...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
Justin Samuels
"23yrold3yrold" <cba...@pangea.ca> wrote in message
news:3ac9a...@Newsfeeds.com...
> "Justin Samuels" <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:SLey6.1307$4n.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> >
> >
> > Well, the real deal is that since we will have a massive change in
> > direction, the writer decided to do a repeat of the all new, all
different
> > X-Men.
>
> Why bother if that's the only reason?
>
> > Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally
silly,
> as
> > Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or
simply
> > asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
>
> Which isn't true. Xavier was influenced by Krakoa to gather mutants like
so
> many tasty munchies.
But the writer influenced Krakoa because it was meant for the X-men to have
an entirely different lineup. The effect it the same.
Justin Samuels
"Royce" <ryan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7c3jctg9n14lpsqld...@4ax.com...
No, she isn't a dumb ass, because she knows somehow with the mutants she
selects, the X-men will when the day.
> >> >You can track down a bunch of complete
> >> >> strangers but you can't find these guys? Since when?
> >> >
> >> >Perhaps she didn't want to contact them?
> >>
> >> The story gives her no reason not to contact them. When the
> >> character adopts an apparently silly course of action rather than
> >> an obvious and sensible one, the story needs to give her a
> >> rationale. It fails to do so.
> >
> >Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally silly,
as
> >Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or simply
> >asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
>
> All of whom could have, logically, been busy at the time. The
> problem here is that there are literally dozens and dozens of mutants
> out there for Jean to recruit from. All of them are easier to locate
> than these rookies. As a result, we're left with "Jean's a dumbass".
> :-D
Who said she wanted to recruit them? And by the way, I really don't care to
see most of those dozens of mutants (people such as Forge, madrox,
Wolfsbane, etc)Some are happily busy living their own lives and do not want
to be a part of any superhero team(Shadowcat, Skids,), Sunsspot is with the
Hellfire Club,(, Mirage is in college, etc.
Again, maybe she was looking for people with spefic powers.
But again, this is a comic book, they wanted to change direction, so yes,
one shouldn't take all this seriously.
>
> Ryan
John B 821
<ryan...@yahoo.com> writes:
> Yeah, that's what he wanted to do, but the premise falls through the
>gaping plot hole of "why didn't Jean call [blank]?" Bending over
>backwards to repeat a past story, logic be damned, has negatively
>affected the story. The only logical explanation is "Jean's a
>dumbass", and I don't think that's what Lobdell wants to tell us. ;-)
Perhaps this team is going to get into Genosha and pretend to side
with Magneto, so Jean needed to recruit people that aren't known
associates of Xavier, since then that ruse wouldn't work. They'd
just say that Cargill recruited them.
Maybe Jean will sneak herself in by pretending to be Madelyne.
Michael Alan Chary
Paul O'Brien <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <SLey6.1307$4n.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>, Justin Samuels
><Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
>>It's just a comic book, stop taking things so seriously.
>
>Ah, the good old "It's a comic, it's allowed to be shit" defence.
>
>It isn't.
If you haven't noticed the name of the newsgroup, look now: if you can't
pretend comics are important, feel free to find another group to read.
--
Vote for Tom Galloway for Most Intelligent Poster in the Bizarro Squiddies!!!
"Since Auschwitz we know what man is capable of. And since Hiroshima we know
what is at stake." -Viktor Frankl, author, neurologist and psychiatrist,
Holocaust survivor (1905-1997)
F®eud
Justin Samuels wrote:
>
> > Which isn't true. Xavier was influenced by Krakoa to gather mutants like
> so
> > many tasty munchies.
>
> But the writer influenced Krakoa because it was meant for the X-men to have
> an entirely different lineup. The effect it the same.
Which really only proves everyone's point. At that time the WRITER wrote the
story so that there was a REASON for collecting new mutants. We're missing
that now and left with a gaping hole of (un)believability.
23yrold3yrold
> > so many tasty munchies.
>
> But the writer influenced Krakoa because it was meant for the X-men to
have
And? That's your best? Well if all we care about is the effect, why bother
with this silly plot nonsense? Hell, why bother with Eve of Destruction at
all? We just want to clear the deck for Morrison and Casey. We'll just stop
writing about these guys and start writing about the X-Men on Earth 617. The
effect is the same.
I have a news flash for you: these are stories. With, y'know, plots and
such. They're supposed to, kinda, make sense. The writers, generally,
understand this. When the ANAD X-Men were recruited, there were reasons and
rationales. Same for New Mutants. Same even for Generation X. There isn't
one here. This is a valid complaint for anyone trying to enjoy the book.
23yrold3yrold
> > gaping plot hole of "why didn't Jean call [blank]?" Bending over
> > backwards to repeat a past story, logic be damned, has negatively
> > affected the story. The only logical explanation is "Jean's a
> > dumbass", and I don't think that's what Lobdell wants to tell us. ;-)
>
> No, she isn't a dumb ass, because she knows somehow with the mutants she
> selects, the X-men will when the day.
!?!?!
I BEG YOUR ...... That "when" better not be "win" misspelled. The X-Men
have so NOT won the day so many times, lost so many members and loved ones.
I'm sure Wraith is gonna be real encouraged by "Well, don't worry. It'll all
work out somehow. And if not, we can have you resurrected in a year."
> > All of whom could have, logically, been busy at the time. The
> > problem here is that there are literally dozens and dozens of mutants
> > out there for Jean to recruit from. All of them are easier to locate
> > than these rookies. As a result, we're left with "Jean's a dumbass".
> > :-D
>
> Who said she wanted to recruit them? And by the way, I really don't care
to
> see most of those dozens of mutants (people such as Forge, Madrox,
> Wolfsbane, etc)
Whether you care to see them or not doesn't impact the plot. "Hey Jean, why
couldn't you call Gambit?" "Recent polls say readers are sick of him. You're
here as the token gay member." "Oh, OK."
> Some are happily busy living their own lives and do not want
> to be a part of any superhero team(Shadowcat, Skids,), Sunspot is with the
> Hellfire Club, Mirage is in college, etc.
I have yet to see anyone complain about the absence of Kitty, Sunspot,
Mirage, and Skids (that one's really reaching). Perhaps you know the
wherabouts of Gambit, Beast, Cable and Iceman, two of which want on the team
enough to be on the teams come May.
> Again, maybe she was looking for people with specific powers.
The moment you can omit that "maybe" I'll let you get away with that.
> But again, this is a comic book, they wanted to change direction, so yes,
> one shouldn't take all this seriously.
It's not a matter of taking it seriously. These are stories. Stories have
plots. Plots are supposed to make sense. Cable makes sense. Powers makes
sense. Even dozens of classic X-Men plots over the years make sense. If
Marvel has decided its books no longer need coherent plots no wonder their
profits are going down the shitter.
23yrold3yrold
>
> I have a news flash for you: these are stories. With, y'know, plots and
> such. They're supposed to, kinda, make sense.
OK, slight apologies to Justin Samuels. Upon re-reading, that sounded a
little more condecending than I meant it to.
My point stands, though :)
23yrold3yrold
news:djsy6.10604$XV.32...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
> How about the "It's a comic written largely for kids, so a little
suspension
> of disbelief is called for" defense? You like that any better?
Suspension of disbelief is when something is presented that's hard to
swallow, but you buy it anyways for the sake of the story. In the case of
why existing characters weren't called, no reason is presented. How does
suspension of disbelief help you believe in nothing at all?
Royce
<Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
Sorry, but the only logical reason for Jean to pick three rookies
instead of former X-Men is because she's a dumbass. I don't *care*
what their powers are, you do not send rookies up against an entire
ARMY OF MUTANTS. This isn't just Magneto. It's the entire mutant
population of Genosha.
Jean, Cargill, Dazzler, Northstar, Paulie, Sunpyre, and The Other Guy.
vs.
Thousands of pissed off Genoshans.
=
Jean's a dumbass.
>> All of whom could have, logically, been busy at the time. The
>> problem here is that there are literally dozens and dozens of mutants
>> out there for Jean to recruit from. All of them are easier to locate
>> than these rookies. As a result, we're left with "Jean's a dumbass".
>> :-D
>
>Who said she wanted to recruit them?
Is Sunpyre really *that* much better than Mirage or Polaris? Is
Paulie that much better than Guido? I doubt it. I mean, I can buy
Jean recruiting Northstar, and I can mmmaybe understand her recruiting
Cargil, but gathering three rookies to fight Magneto & Co. has to be
about the dumbest thing Jean has *ever* done. That's why I call her a
dumbass. :-)
> And by the way, I really don't care to
>see most of those dozens of mutants (people such as Forge, madrox,
>Wolfsbane, etc)Some are happily busy living their own lives and do not want
>to be a part of any superhero team(Shadowcat, Skids,), Sunsspot is with the
>Hellfire Club,(, Mirage is in college, etc.
>
>Again, maybe she was looking for people with spefic powers.
Even if that's true, it's another plot contrivance. How would Jean
know which powers she needs? And this isn't just "being part of
superhero team". This is about stopping an World War III. No one's
going to say "golly gee, I like this college life so much, I'll just
ignore the *war* going on around me and do my homework." I'm sorry,
but I can't see ANY former X-Man saying this.
>But again, this is a comic book, they wanted to change direction, so yes,
>one shouldn't take all this seriously.
It's a gaping plot hole. It impedes our enjoyment of the story.
That makes it worthy of criticism. Lobdell's defense is, apparently,
that the original ANAD story was contrived, too. Fine, maybe it was.
That's still no excuse to repeat the contrivance.
Ryan
Royce
Now, *this* I could buy, and if Lobdell has the wit to use this
scheme, I'll gladly eat my words.
Ryan
Brian Hance
wrote:
>How about the "It's a comic written largely for kids, so a little suspension
>of disbelief is called for" defense? You like that any better?
No. Suspension of disbelief allows one to accept people people
flying, shooting "laser" beams out of their eyes, healing mortal
wounds in mear seconds, and controlling the weather. Consistent, and
believable characterization is where I draw the line though.
Menshevik
>know which powers she needs?
Somehow I had a flashback to Phil Foglio's wonderful
"Stanley and His Monster" mini-series where at one point
Stanley has to rescue his pal from the pits of heck, and to
do so he assembles a weird assortment of items of
equipment a little boy would find useful, and then he's in
a weird kind of time-loop where he is can pull off the
rescue, but only after he has used every single item.
Hasn't really that much to do with this, but sounds like a
more fun story than UXM #392... ;-)
Tilman
"Many Bothans died to bring us this information."
Paul O'Brien
<clga...@hotmail.com> writes
>How about the "It's a comic written largely for kids, so a little suspension
>of disbelief is called for" defense? You like that any better?
No. Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Dave Groening
"Craig" <clga...@hotmail.com> wrote
> How about the "It's a comic written largely for kids, so a little suspension
> of disbelief is called for" defense?
Bad writing is bad writing, whether the intended audience is a toddler or
someone passed his 40's. The best children's fiction can be appreciated by
adults, and vice versa (if it doesn't contain too much sex/violence)
Craig
that certain x-men weren't around when the crisis struck? heh.
"23yrold3yrold" <cba...@pangea.ca> wrote in message
news:3aca7...@Newsfeeds.com...
Jess Nevins
Paul O'Brien wrote:
> In article <djsy6.10604$XV.32...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>, Craig
> <clga...@hotmail.com> writes
> >How about the "It's a comic written largely for kids, so a little suspension
> >of disbelief is called for" defense? You like that any better?
>
> No. Excuses, excuses, excuses.
The idea that fiction written for children should be allowed in any way to
be substandard to fiction written for adults is not only insulting to
children but also to the better writers of children's fiction, who labor under
constraints not applied to adult writers.
As well, if you feed children garbage, they never learn to appreciate good
food. Shovel bad literature at them, and it'll be that much more difficult
for them to see the qualities in good literature.
jess
F®eud
Craig wrote:
> So laser beams shooting from eyes is more readily believable than the idea
> that certain x-men weren't around when the crisis struck? heh.
Yes. Exactly.
Craig
if you can't pull up 1001 examples of what you would call bad writing... I
don't think that anyone here would call those issues insulting to kids or
adults alike... they were just straight up fun. Call it what you want but
fun needs no excuses, imho.
"Jess Nevins" <jjne...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3ACBD99B...@ix.netcom.com...
Pat Weber
>That makes it worthy of criticism. Lobdell's defense is, apparently,
>that the original ANAD story was contrived, too. Fine, maybe it was.
>That's still no excuse to repeat the contrivance.
Or we could just sit back, stop bitching, remember that no matter how much we
love the characters, its just a comic, and enjoy the ride.
or maybe that's just me.
Pat Weber
"I'm really starting to dislike you." Gerbil in "The Micro-Gerbil 2001"
Consul de Designers
> This is rich. Losers like you ran around screaming how terrible Claremont
> was and how he should be kicked off the X-books. You got your wish. Now live
> with the fact that you've wound up with something that's far,far worse.
> HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
> LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah well, I remember the days when kifox still had his child-like innocence, and it is a shame he
has degenerated into his childish tantrum. :(
--
till next time,
Jameson Stalanthas Yu, 'mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human'
Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners
Link at: http://www.dolphins-cove.com
Hooks
<ki...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:9ahfri$35q$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> This is rich. Losers like you ran around screaming how terrible Claremont
> was and how he should be kicked off the X-books. You got your wish. Now
live
> with the fact that you've wound up with something that's far,far worse.
>
> HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!
>
>
> LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How utterly pathetic. My killfile smiles at you, friend, with teeth of
hunger.
Regarding the differences between Lobdell's current run and Claremont's
previous run, however, I feel like I've gotten more from Lobdell in four
issues than from Claremont in eight months. Lobdell (despite this latest
issue) hasn't insulted the reader's (or the _artists'_) intellegence by
having every character explain every power, attribute, and identity to each
other everytime they speak. Lobdell's let the art speak for itself this
time out, and while there are some plotholes in his latest issue, I
appreciate how we haven't been treated to The Standard X-Man Funeral Issue,
The Standard Return of X-Man Issue, The Standard Kidnapping Issue, and The
Standard X-Men Infiltrate Genosha Issue.
Instead, we've gotten character pieces which carry the plot far more subtley
than, say, Claremont's last run. And I like that.
(Uncanny X-Men #392 notwithstanding, of course.)
(X)
Paul O'Brien
>
>This is rich. Losers like you ran around screaming how terrible Claremont
>was and how he should be kicked off the X-books. You got your wish. Now live
>with the fact that you've wound up with something that's far,far worse.
Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
Shaun G. Smith
Hooks wrote:
>
> Regarding the differences between Lobdell's current run and Claremont's
> previous run, however, I feel like I've gotten more from Lobdell in four
> issues than from Claremont in eight months. Lobdell (despite this latest
> issue) hasn't insulted the reader's (or the _artists'_) intellegence by
> having every character explain every power, attribute, and identity to each
> other everytime they speak. Lobdell's let the art speak for itself this
> time out, and while there are some plotholes in his latest issue, I
> appreciate how we haven't been treated to The Standard X-Man Funeral Issue,
> The Standard Return of X-Man Issue, The Standard Kidnapping Issue, and The
> Standard X-Men Infiltrate Genosha Issue.
>
> Instead, we've gotten character pieces which carry the plot far more subtley
> than, say, Claremont's last run. And I like that.
>
Overall both runs were/are mediocre. Yes, Claremont overdid the exposition,
but the art by (I forgot his
name - did a run on Wolverine) was very hard to follow during action scenes.
Also, when (forgot his
name again -- the guy who drew the last issue) worked with Claremont the
exposition was lessened.
Besides I would rather have too much exposition than the gaping plot holes in
the last issue. Claremont's
problems were more not explaining things as opposed to plot holes.
As for the Standard X-Man funeral issue both writers killed off characters.
Claremont did his a lot better than
that sad Colossus death by Lobdell. Isn't Lobdell resposible for Cyclops return
and the issue where Cyclops
goes on the rant with his father which just rehased stuff already dealt with?
There's your Return of X-Man issue.
Lobell hasn't done a Kidnapping Issue...well Magneto did kidnap Xaiver so
there's your Standard Kidnapping Issue.
Finally, your standard X-Men Infiltrate Genosha Issue is coming up next.
I really don't see why Lobdell comes up better than Claremont but to each his
own.
To me, the difference is that Claremont did great work and came back and did bad
work, while Lobdell did mediocre
work and came back and continued with his standard mediocrity.
Shaun G.
23yrold3yrold
news:0hkpctole7rqtbbha...@4ax.com...
> It's a fine line in fantasy stories. There's always an element of
> suspension of disbelief, scientifically you could rip anything apart.
> Where the hell does Cyclops get all that energy from to send
> concussive blasts anyway?
A fair question, necessary to maintain a suspension of disbelief. Which is
why it's been answered; the sun. In fact, he's been shown to have trouble
firing at full power (or at all) after a long period of non-exposure to
sunlight.
> On the other hand you still need to approach the storytelling with
> some semblence of logic. You can't start using the 'suspension of
> disbelief' to get away with bad storytelling.
Exactly. That's just lazy.
Jeremy Turner
> >Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally silly, as
> >Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or simply
> >asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
>
> All of whom could have, logically, been busy at the time. The
> problem here is that there are literally dozens and dozens of mutants
> out there for Jean to recruit from.
Hey! You're cheating. You're saying that in Giant Size X-Men #1, all the heroes
that Xavier could have contacted may have been busy, even though the story didn't
explain what they were doing at the time. Well, the SAME EXACT THING can be said
of Lobdell's issue. She tried to contact some of the others, but they were all
busy. It's the same thing.
Jess Nevins
Craig wrote:
> At the same time, go through Lee and Kirbys old issues of Thor or FF and see
> if you can't pull up 1001 examples of what you would call bad writing... I
> don't think that anyone here would call those issues insulting to kids or
> adults alike... they were just straight up fun. Call it what you want but
> fun needs no excuses, imho.
There's a reason why no serious critic presumes compare pieces of work
written in two different eras. It's because such criticisms are unfair to
both eras as well as, ultimately, pointless.
Standards and practices were different in the 1960s than they are today.
And besides, the Lee/Kirby Silver Age books had as many moments
of brilliance as they did flaws. The notion that current artists can or
should be compared to them is fatuous and insulting to all
concerned.
And, again, saying that a work's fun factor somehow excuses
that work's poor qualities--all because it's kids' literature--is
insulting to those who produce excellent kids' literature.
jess
F®eud
Jeremy Turner wrote:
> Hey! You're cheating. You're saying that in Giant Size X-Men #1, all the heroes
> that Xavier could have contacted may have been busy, even though the story didn't
> explain what they were doing at the time. Well, the SAME EXACT THING can be said
> of Lobdell's issue. She tried to contact some of the others, but they were all
> busy. It's the same thing.
Who's "too busy" to fight the war they've been trained for and prepared for their
entire adult (and sometimes longer) lives. That's the gaping plot hole everybody's
having major problems with. It doesn't fly. It is totally uncharacteristic of EVERY
X-man I can think of to be "too busy" to get involved in this. Only Lobdell could
write X-men wrong who don't even appear in the book. That's quite a feat in and of
itself.
Justin Samuels
"F®eud" <itsf...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3ACD2A05...@mediaone.net...
Likewise, it was uncharacteristic of th Beast, and Scarlet Witch not have
helped Xavier in the first run had not asked.
Many of the X-Men, when have previously made departures, deliberately make
themselves unavailable for these kinds of things. Why/ Because there is
always the next threat to the world. The reason why Jean herself stayed for
12 storyline was because of Scott . had ne not decided to stay, she would
have gone home and it would not have matterred to her because as she said,
"let someone else deal with it, we are on time off." When she scanned the
minds of Eeny and Meeny, she realized they were sentinent beings but didn't
care enough to do a deep probe, "because the X-men could take care of it".
Polaris didn't stay or give a damn about the 12 storyline, she was only
there because she was dragged pretty much screaming into.
When X-Men got off active duty, they make it pretty clear they don't want ot
be contacted until they say they are ready. What Lobdell is doing here
certainly has had plenty of precedence from a number of writers, Including
Davis, Kelly and Seagle, and Claremont.
The X-Treme X-men may have been battling other foes, you can't just drop a
fight in the middle of nowhere.
>
Steven Dumont
Not really. Storytelling in comic books has come a long way since
then. Back then it wasn't a big deal since the details weren't as
important to the readers. Nowadays you can't get away with the same
thing. This is why Magneto and the rest of the villains can't
successfully be portrayed as the one-dimensional villains that they were
in their inception. Since Lobdell is writing for a 2001 audience these
things can't be excused. It's poor, sloppy writing and it shows that he
took extreme shortcuts to get where he wanted to go. This is
inexcusable because it's a bit of a slap in the face to the readers who
expect well thought out stories that make sense in the big picture.
Steve
Justin Samuels
"Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:9adpub$91t$1...@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu...
> In article <Gcx5aEAL...@esoterica.demon.co.uk>,
> Paul O'Brien <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >In article <SLey6.1307$4n.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com>, Justin Samuels
> ><Justin...@nyc.rr.com> writes
> >>It's just a comic book, stop taking things so seriously.
> >
> >Ah, the good old "It's a comic, it's allowed to be shit" defence.
> >
> >It isn't.
>
> If you haven't noticed the name of the newsgroup, look now: if you can't
> pretend comics are important, feel free to find another group to read.
Comics, are entertainment. They are not important. I enjoy them, but let's
just say my life wouldn't end without them.
> --
> Vote for Tom Galloway for Most Intelligent Poster in the Bizarro
Squiddies!!!
> "Since Auschwitz we know what man is capable of. And since Hiroshima we
know
> what is at stake." -Viktor Frankl, author, neurologist and psychiatrist,
> Holocaust survivor (1905-1997)
Justin Samuels
> > >
> > > Which isn't true. Xavier was influenced by Krakoa to gather mutants
like
> > > so many tasty munchies.
> >
> > But the writer influenced Krakoa because it was meant for the X-men to
> have
> > an entirely different lineup. The effect is the same.
>
> And? That's your best? Well if all we care about is the effect, why bother
> with this silly plot nonsense? Hell, why bother with Eve of Destruction at
> all?
I actually agree with why bother with the fill in stories we have been
getting. The only reason is that it took the new creative team sometime to
get settled in i suppose.
Justin Samuels
"Brian Fried" <bfr...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:9aathq$dm3$4...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca...
> Re: the UNCANNY 392 line-up...
>
> In fairness, Paul, a reader of just the core books might assume that
> everyone except Wolverine, Gambit, Jean and Cable left with Storm. Gambit
> is known to have his solo book, and may be off on another adventure -
> since the Claremont issues made it quite clear that was a worry for the
> X-Men. Plus, after "Dream's End," Cable made it quite clear that he was
> not suited for the X-Men and -- before that -- that he was only there to
> stand in his missing father's place. Cyclops is back, you do the math.
> Plus, Nightcrawler retired in X-MEN UNLIMITED and Kitty in X-MEN #111.
>
> That still leaves a hell of a lot of X-Men left, though, and I think this
> is where the real criticism should lie. Of all X-Men, where are Forge and
> Multiple Man? Both were last seen *ON GENOSHA*!
>
> Similarly, the mansion was last seen with Moonstar and Reyes in it.
>
> Archangel, Iceman and Polaris were last in NYC, and at least two are
> active reserves for the X-Men. Why weren't they contacted?
No, at the end of the Magneto limited series Polaris was last scene
returning to Genosha ,and she is not an active X-Men reserve. In fact, as
many times Polaris has switched sides why would Jean contact someone so
unstable and undependable?
>
Royce
>>enjoyment of the story.
>>That makes it worthy of criticism. Lobdell's defense is, apparently,
>>that the original ANAD story was contrived, too. Fine, maybe it was.
>>That's still no excuse to repeat the contrivance.
>
>Or we could just sit back, stop bitching, remember that no matter how much we
>love the characters, its just a comic, and enjoy the ride.
That's the problem... we're not enjoying the ride. The p[l]ot holes
are getting in the way of the fun.
Ryan
Royce
wrote:
No, it's not. It's logical to assume that the FF or Avengers were
busy with their own world-threatening-crisis at the time. But with
most of the former X-Men, we know that isn't the case. Moonstar was
last seen in the mansion, for Pete's sake! Karma is still in New
York. The X-Factor crowd (Guido, Madrox, Polaris, Forge, etc.) is
still out there. Warlock is still alive and well, isn't he? And keep
in mind that stopping World War III is a *bit* more important than
stopping Krakoa the Living Island.
Regardless, the plot hole gets in the way of the fun. That's the
only important thing.
Ryan
Laura M. Parkinson
>In article <9ahfri$35q$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, ki...@hotmail.com writes
>>
>>This is rich. Losers like you ran around screaming how terrible Claremont
>>was and how he should be kicked off the X-books. You got your wish. Now live
>>with the fact that you've wound up with something that's far,far worse.
>
>Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
I'd ask what drugs you were smoking, again, but that would be probably
considered flaming and foul play. ;)
--
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
23yrold3yrold
>
> When X-Men got off active duty, they make it pretty clear they don't want
> be contacted until they say they are ready.
Hey, I'm all for this. But when a character leaves, there's a reason.
Cannonball left the X-Men to care for his ma. There was a scene. Angel left
after Giant-Sized X-Men #1, as well as just prior to UXM 150, because he
didn't want to be on a team with Wolverine. Both times, there was a scene.
Gambit has not made it pretty clear. Cable has not made it pretty clear.
Iceman has not made it pretty clear. You don't see anyone complaining about
Angel, Nightcrawler, Kitty, X-treme, etc. because they have made it pretty
clear. You can't just kick half the team away in between issues for no
better reason than to bring in new ones because the old ones are gone.
23yrold3yrold
>
> No, at the end of the Magneto limited series Polaris was last scene
> returning to Genosha ,and she is not an active X-Men reserve. In fact, as
> many times Polaris has switched sides why would Jean contact someone so
> unstable and undependable?
As opposed to, say, Cargill?
23yrold3yrold
news:3ACCFB0B...@psu.edu...
> Royce wrote:
>
> > >Lobdell's rationale was that Xavier's course of action was equally
silly, as
> > >Xavier could have contact Beast, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver or
simply
> > >asked the Avengers or FF for assistance.
> >
> > All of whom could have, logically, been busy at the time. The
> > problem here is that there are literally dozens and dozens of mutants
> > out there for Jean to recruit from.
Nah. It would have been silly then and it's silly now.
> Hey! You're cheating. You're saying that in Giant Size X-Men #1, all the
heroes
> that Xavier could have contacted may have been busy, even though the story
didn't
> explain what they were doing at the time.
The story states clearly Krakoa influenced Xavier to collect those mutants.
The writer saw a plot hole and covered his ass. Lobdell's is hanging out.
23yrold3yrold
news:3acd44c1...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> I'd ask what drugs you were smoking, again, but that would be probably
> considered flaming and foul play. ;)
I'd say Lobdell's best matches Claremont's best, but worst to worst? Uncanny
X-Men 285 vs. Uncanny X-Men 390? Lobdell's was better.
23yrold3yrold
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:41:43 -0500, "23yrold3yrold" <cba...@pangea.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >A fair question, necessary to maintain a suspension of disbelief. Which
is
> >why it's been answered; the sun. In fact, he's been shown to have trouble
> >firing at full power (or at all) after a long period of non-exposure to
> >sunlight.
>
I don't think there's a "good" example. Pretty much every wacky mutant power
has a semi-reasonable sounding explanation. As long as you can get a slight
grip on it, it's acceptable. Consider disbelief suspended.
I still don't see how some posters here think this affects shaky plots.
Royce
wrote:
>"Laura M. Parkinson" <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3acd44c1...@news.mindspring.com...
>> Paul O'Brien <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> rhapsodized in blue:
>> >
>> >Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
>>
>> I'd ask what drugs you were smoking, again, but that would be probably
>> considered flaming and foul play. ;)
>
>I'd say Lobdell's best matches Claremont's best, but worst to worst? Uncanny
>X-Men 285 vs. Uncanny X-Men 390? Lobdell's was better.
285? What happened in #285... or did you mean #385? I'm going to
assume that you meant #385, since including Claremont's original run
in that equation would be a level of poor taste no human could
truthfully possess...
Ryan
Johan Gustafsson
Not to mention that Claremont didn't write 285.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** e98...@efd.lth.se
Justin Samuels
> "Justin Samuels" <Justin...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:aVaz6.10976$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> >
> > When X-Men got off active duty, they make it pretty clear they don't
want
> to
> > be contacted until they say they are ready.
>
> Hey, I'm all for this. But when a character leaves, there's a reason.
> Cannonball left the X-Men to care for his ma. There was a scene. Angel
left
> after Giant-Sized X-Men #1, as well as just prior to UXM 150, because he
> didn't want to be on a team with Wolverine. Both times, there was a scene.
> Gambit has not made it pretty clear. Cable has not made it pretty clear.
In his on bookc, Cable's relationship with the X-Men fell apart. As for
Gambit, I agree, he has not made this clear.
> Iceman has not made it pretty clear.
He sure has. he has not rejoined the X-Men and was only in the 12 storyline
becausehe got dragged into, the same reason he was in X-Men Forever . he is
not on active call.
You don't see anyone complaining about
> Angel, Nightcrawler, Kitty, X-treme, etc. because they have made it pretty
> clear. You can't just kick half the team away in between issues for no
> better reason than to bring in new ones because the old ones are gone.
Actually, some people were complaining about all the above, despite the fact
almost all made it quite clear they were not on call.
Justin Samuels
"Royce" <ryan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f17qct8kt2u359hh6...@4ax.com...
Karma is on an X-man, nor is she on call. She is taking care of her younger
siblings.
The X-Factor crowd (Guido, Madrox, Polaris, Forge, etc.) is
> still out there.
Strong Guy said he was a member of X-Factor because of the paycheck.
Polaris made it clear she didn't anything to with the X-Men in the 2
storyline, switched over to Magneto's side,the nswitched again and left,
returned in the underground, and was last seen in X-Men Black Sun at
Magneto's side again. Why on god's name would Jean call her?
Madrox apparently has had wanted nothing else do with the hero business.
Warlock is still alive and well, isn't he?
He is not an X-Man.
23yrold3yrold
>
> In his on bookc, Cable's relationship with the X-Men fell apart.
I haven't seen this; is it in the new issue? I'll find out today. In any
case I honestly can't see Cable saying to his mom and dad "I can't help you.
I've cut off all ties with the team. Sorry, my hands are tied here."
> > Iceman has not made it pretty clear.
>
> He sure has. he has not rejoined the X-Men and was only in the 12
storyline
> becausehe got dragged into, the same reason he was in X-Men Forever . he
is
> not on active call.
Exactly what are his reasons for leaving the team? He was in the mansion
during Dream's End, and will be there in May. And it wouldn't be the first
time the X-Men called him for help on a mission.
> > You don't see anyone complaining about
> > Angel, Nightcrawler, Kitty, X-treme, etc. because they have made it
pretty
> > clear. You can't just kick half the team away in between issues for no
> > better reason than to bring in new ones because the old ones are gone.
>
> Actually, some people were complaining about all the above, despite the
fact
> almost all made it quite clear they were not on call.
Oh. Well, then they're idiots ; )
23yrold3yrold
>
> 285? What happened in #285... or did you mean #385?
D'OH!
385.
F®eud
Justin Samuels wrote:
> <snip>
> Polaris didn't stay or give a damn about the 12 storyline,<snip>
Gee, that makes two of us.
Menshevik
And he was with the X-Men off-duty in X-Men #109.
(Not to mention that he has been known to drop everything
in order to help his friends before, e.g. in X-Factor #1).
Tilman
"Many Bothans died to bring us this information."
Menshevik
>case I honestly can't see Cable saying to his mom and dad "I can't help you.
>I've cut off all ties with the team. Sorry, my hands are tied here."
And that does not just go for Cable.
>> > Iceman has not made it pretty clear.
>>
>> He sure has. he has not rejoined the X-Men and was only in the 12
>storyline
>> becausehe got dragged into, the same reason he was in X-Men Forever . he
>is
>> not on active call.
>Exactly what are his reasons for leaving the team? He was in the mansion
>during Dream's End, and will be there in May. And it wouldn't be the first
>time the X-Men called him for help on a mission.
And in the past he generally tended to have a fairly low
threshold for heeding the call of duty and joining their
friends for an important mission, e.g. during the Dr. Doom/Arcade
arc (UXM #145-147) and when Jean returned from the
dead (He did not say: "I'm sorry Jean, I wish you all
the best, but I have my career as a chartered accountant to look after,
I've given up the spandex thing." which would have
been much more plausible because X-Factor's mission
was a lot less urgent than having to prevent World War III).
>> > You don't see anyone complaining about
>> > Angel, Nightcrawler, Kitty, X-treme, etc. because they have made it
>pretty
>> > clear. You can't just kick half the team away in between issues for no
>> > better reason than to bring in new ones because the old ones are gone.
Well, preventing World War III looks to me like a mission
of such importance and urgency that Jean should at least
have tried to contact some of the above as they realistically
would at least have seriously considered helping her.
Looking around for books that have been lying around
for decades unnoticed would not appear to be the most
immediate concern to most readers unless you somehow
explained it to them.
Laura M. Parkinson
>"Laura M. Parkinson" <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3acd44c1...@news.mindspring.com...
>> Paul O'Brien <pa...@esoterica.demon.co.uk> rhapsodized in blue:
>> >
>> >Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
>>
>> I'd ask what drugs you were smoking, again, but that would be probably
>> considered flaming and foul play. ;)
>
>I'd say Lobdell's best matches Claremont's best, but worst to worst? Uncanny
>X-Men 285 vs. Uncanny X-Men 390? Lobdell's was better.
Your opinion, of course, but I'd have to strongly disagree. I thought
that Claremont's last run had some flaws, yes, like not wanting to
have Kitty ever be aged, things like that, but overall I'd *much*
rather have it, along with the type of writing/plotting, and most of
all the *characterization*, over anything else we've had recently. And
especially over these large gaping plot holes interspersed with a few
tatters of bad dialogue that are calling themselves the books
currently.
But again, that's my opinion. ;)
Hooks
Menshevik <mens...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010406090229...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> >I haven't seen this; is it in the new issue? I'll find out today. In any
> >case I honestly can't see Cable saying to his mom and dad "I can't help
you.
> >I've cut off all ties with the team. Sorry, my hands are tied here."
>
> And that does not just go for Cable.
And in the new issue, Cable just states that he isn't along the same lines
as the X-Men anymore. There has been no scene where's he left the X-Men.
Apparently, this story takes place just after SFC #4, what with his fallout
with Blaquesmith and his views on the X-Men. So one can assume that he just
left after SFC #4.
Still doesn't excuse there not being any explanation for it.
(X)
Hooks
> news:rabz6.10980$lj.9...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> >
> > No, at the end of the Magneto limited series Polaris was last scene
> > returning to Genosha ,and she is not an active X-Men reserve. In fact,
as
> > many times Polaris has switched sides why would Jean contact someone so
> > unstable and undependable?
>
> As opposed to, say, Cargill?
Heh heh heh. Good one.
(X)
Hooks
> Strong Guy said he was a member of X-Factor because of the paycheck.
> Polaris made it clear she didn't anything to with the X-Men in the 2
> storyline, switched over to Magneto's side,the nswitched again and left,
> returned in the underground, and was last seen in X-Men Black Sun at
> Magneto's side again. Why on god's name would Jean call her?
Cargill Cargill Cargill.
(X)
Shaun G. Smith
Paul O'Brien wrote:
> In article <9ahfri$35q$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>, ki...@hotmail.com writes
> >
> >This is rich. Losers like you ran around screaming how terrible Claremont
> >was and how he should be kicked off the X-books. You got your wish. Now live
> >with the fact that you've wound up with something that's far,far worse.
>
> Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
LOL! You're really going to have to explain this one because I just can't take
this statement seriously.
Shaun G.
Shaun G. Smith
Justin Samuels wrote:
> " Karma is on an X-man, nor is she on call. She is taking care of her younger
>
> siblings.
I would think if Magneto wins she might not be able to protect her siblings
ever again.
>
>
> Warlock is still alive and well, isn't he?
>
> He is not an X-Man.
>
Neither were any of the characters that Jean recruited. Dazzler came to them,
remember.
Seriously, there is no real way to justify this plot hole so you can either
ignore it
or have it prevent you from wanting to read the rest of the story. I'm of the
latter.
Shaun G.
23yrold3yrold
>
> Your opinion, of course, but I'd have to strongly disagree. I thought
> that Claremont's last run had some flaws, yes, like not wanting to
Exactly where was this? Everyone complains about it but we saw her in, what?
3 issues? And she actually seemed older to me. Was this something Claremont
said in an interview?
> and most of all the *characterization*, over anything else we've had
> recently.
Characterization is all Lobdell's given us thus far.
Laura M. Parkinson
>"Laura M. Parkinson" <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3acde359...@news.mindspring.com...
>>
>> Your opinion, of course, but I'd have to strongly disagree. I thought
>> that Claremont's last run had some flaws, yes, like not wanting to
>> have Kitty ever be aged.
>
>Exactly where was this? Everyone complains about it but we saw her in, what?
>3 issues? And she actually seemed older to me. Was this something Claremont
>said in an interview?
Well, in the books she made a mention of herself being something
around 15 or so, just before the "6 month jump," at a time when the
books were rumored to be scripted by Claremont, uncredited. Plus in
interviews he's stated something to the fact that he doesn't think
that Kitty should age, that that's just how the character is. That's
about the one thing that really sticks in my craw about his writing.
>> and most of all the *characterization*, over anything else we've had
>> recently.
>
>Characterization is all Lobdell's given us thus far.
Yes, very bad characterization.
23yrold3yrold
> "23yrold3yrold" <cba...@pangea.ca> rhapsodized in blue:
>
> >"Laura M. Parkinson" <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:3acde359...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> >> recently.
> >
> >Characterization is all Lobdell's given us thus far.
>
> Yes, very bad characterization.
Even Kitty?
Laura M. Parkinson
>"Laura M. Parkinson" <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3ace75a4...@news.mindspring.com...
>> "23yrold3yrold" <cba...@pangea.ca> rhapsodized in blue:
>>
>> >"Laura M. Parkinson" <lpark...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> >news:3acde359...@news.mindspring.com...
>>
>> >> and most of all the *characterization*, over anything else we've had
>> >> recently.
>> >
>> >Characterization is all Lobdell's given us thus far.
>>
>> Yes, very bad characterization.
>
>Even Kitty?
Kitty wasn't so bad, but then he's written what... one issue with her,
so far? And it's still hard for me to imagine her just completely
walking away from the X-Men, with the intent to stay gone forever,
since she's pretty much grown up among them. Well, I guess that in
itself might actually be a good reason to walk away for a while, at
least, to experience something different. But walking away from all
her friends, all her responsibility, forever? Maybe, since she's
grieving and probably reacting due to that... but I don't know.
That's one of the characters that he might be alright with.
But then, how many characters has he been writing so far...?
Royce
Neither was Northstar.
> The X-Factor crowd (Guido, Madrox, Polaris, Forge, etc.) is
>> still out there.
>
>Strong Guy said he was a member of X-Factor because of the paycheck.
And Paulie is only there because Jean's a hottie.
>Polaris made it clear she didn't anything to with the X-Men in the 2
>storyline, switched over to Magneto's side,the nswitched again and left,
>returned in the underground, and was last seen in X-Men Black Sun at
>Magneto's side again. Why on god's name would Jean call her?
Why in god's name would Jean call on Cargil?
>Madrox apparently has had wanted nothing else do with the hero business.
Same with Sunfire, but Jean called him anyway. Why wouldn't she call
Madrox?
> Warlock is still alive and well, isn't he?
>
>He is not an X-Man.
Neither was Transparency Lad.
Jean's still a dumbass.
Ryan
Paul O'Brien
<sha...@starpower.net> writes
>>
>> Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
>
> LOL! You're really going to have to explain this one because I just can't
>take
>this statement seriously.
Characterisation is at least as good. Stories make rather more
sense. Doesn't spend tedious bloody issues pissing about with the
Neo or other such new characters with no personality and no concept.
Read the reviews, I've explained it all many times before.
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS REVIEWS - http://www.esoterica.demon.co.uk
Enthusiasm is an untrustworthy dictionary.
Shaun G. Smith
Paul O'Brien wrote:
> In article <3ACE3D56...@starpower.net>, Shaun G. Smith
> <sha...@starpower.net> writes
> >>
> >> Oh, it's still MUCH better than the Claremont run.
> >
> > LOL! You're really going to have to explain this one because I just can't
> >take
> >this statement seriously.
>
> Characterisation is at least as good.
No one really seemed out of character during Claremont's run. I think Lobdell
has dropped the ball on Kitty's leaving the X-Men behind and Colossus suicide
seemed
pretty stupid.
> Stories make rather more
> sense.
The last issue of X-Men made sense? The issue where Colossus killed himself
made sense?
> Doesn't spend tedious bloody issues pissing about with the
> Neo or other such new characters with no personality and no concept.
I'll take that over a ranting raving lunatic Magneto anyday.
Shaun G.