Kitty and Peter: Alara gets emotional
Aleph Press
and Peter getting together?
No, I never understood their relaitonship in the first place. No, I
always thought Kitty could do better. No, Colossus does bore me. But that
isn't the real reason.
A while ago I was in love with a guy, and I thought we were going to get
married. We were best friends, soulmates, everything and that on a stick.
I thought, anyway. And then out of *nowhere* he tells me our relationship
isn't working (to be fair, it wasn't out of nowhere, it just seemed like
that to me-- none so blind as those who will not see, etc.) Now we are
close friends. He's my best male friend, a dear pal, a buddy, my roommate
and housemate and all around bud, and if he begged me to take him back
I'd look at him like he was a bug on my shoe and go "No." Very, very coldly.
Kitty, of course, is not me. But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
a *dead* woman *he didn't know.* Was he being faithful to the memory of
Zsaji? Zsaji, recall, was making out with Johnny Storm. Was he being fair
to Kitty? He broke her heart over *nothing*. She was emotionally insecure
and felt that guys wouldn't like her because she wasn't sexy like
Illyana, and Peter just assured her that this was in fact true by dumping
her for a beautiful dead chick.
If Kitty ever takes him back after this, it will be a sign that Kitty is
a doormat who thinks she'll never get a better man. And Kitty is not a
doormat, and she's *had* other men.
How can she prevent him from dumping her like that again? Or going nuts,
again? Or getting all insecure about her intelligent male friends, again?
Nope nope nope. He's a loser, Kitty. Don't go near him. be his bud, be
his pal, but if you ever seriously contemplate being his girlfriend
again, I will just have to write a story where the ghost of Illyana
returns and whacks you with a big stick. "NO! You and my brother would be
*bad* for each other. DON'T DO IT!"
The moral of the story is: Alara is not into being a doormat for men who
dump her, and thinks Kitty shouldn't be either. :-)
--
Be good, servile little citizen-employee, and pay your taxes so the rich
don't have to.
--Zepp Weasel
Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com
All Aleph Press stories are at http://www.mindspring.com/~alara/ajer.
Jim Smith
>
> Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
> and Peter getting together?
[snip]
> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
Menshevik
Actually she was 14. You can read the story in UXM #184.
Where Logan gives Peter a good telling-to and then amusedly
watches him get beaten up by the Juggernaut in a barroom brawl. :-)
Tilman
"But ah know in my heart, no matter how much good ah do, I'll never
make up for what ah did. Those scales nothin'll ever balance."
Rogue (Uncanny X-Men #203)
Aleph Press
: Aleph Press wrote:
: >
: > Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
: > and Peter getting together?
: [snip]
: > Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
: Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
Kitty and Peter Rasputin (not Pete Wisdom) were going out when she was 13
and he was 19. He went off to the Secret Wars and fell in love with a
beautiful alien healer named Zsaji, who died saving the heroes from
death. When he returned, he broke off with Kitty, telling her that he had
fallen in love with Zsaji and that he could no longer live a lie with
Kitty. Kitty was heartbroken. Later they reconciled but as friends only.
JMcgin1007
week was should Kitty and Peter get back together?
The results?
53.3 % True Love
46.7 % Lets Be Friends
A pretty even vote so hopefully Marvel won't push Kelly and Seagle into
restarting the relationship.
I also heard a rumor that old and new relationships would be appearing in the
pages of X-Men so unless Gambit stays Kitty and Peter are the only 'old'
relationship to be restarted in the present group.
Makes the relationship more likely.
Something I'm not happy about.
Gann0n
>
> Jim Smith wrote:
>
> >Aleph Press wrote:
> >>
> >> Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
> >> and Peter getting together?
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
> >
> >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
>
UXM183, July, $.60US, 30p UK, $.75 CAN
> Where Logan gives Peter a good telling-to and then amusedly
> watches him get beaten up by the Juggernaut in a barroom brawl. :-)
>
Funny enough, I really like this set up.. A nice on-going story in the
X-books...
"Any guy that breaks kitty's heart will be given a good telling-to by
Logan AND get his ass whooped by the Juggernaut."
anyone have Seagle's and Kelly's Email addys? :)
--
"I'll Tell you what will come in the next millennium;
1000 more years of the same old crap."
======================================================================
|-Gann0n-| -- You will respect my authouratah!
--
Osorete wa ikenai. Watashi wa saisho de ari, saigo de aru.
--
gan...@earthlink.net or cris...@hotmail.com AIM: Gann0n316
======================================================================
Alleigh
>Jim Smith (jimna...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>: Aleph Press wrote:
>: >
>: > Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
>: > and Peter getting together?
>
>: [snip]
>
>: > Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
>
>: Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
>
>Kitty and Peter Rasputin (not Pete Wisdom) were going out when she was 13
She was 14 at the time wasn't she - I thought Secret Wars took place
after the Brood story.
Dan McEwen
>Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
>and Peter getting together?
>
>Kitty, of course, is not me. But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
>a *dead* woman *he didn't know.* Was he being faithful to the memory of
>Zsaji? Zsaji, recall, was making out with Johnny Storm. Was he being fair
>to Kitty? He broke her heart over *nothing*. She was emotionally insecure
>and felt that guys wouldn't like her because she wasn't sexy like
>Illyana, and Peter just assured her that this was in fact true by dumping
>her for a beautiful dead chick.
Alara, I feel pretty much the same way. I always felt that Kitty and
Peter were done *forever* when he dumped her for Zsaji. Kitty went
through a lot of pain and grief over his decision. He didn't even
offer her the opportunity to try to make things work out with Kitty.
I hate the idea of those two ever being together again.
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Home Page - http://home.att.net/~djmcewen
Fanfic - http://home.att.net/~djmcewen/Integrated.html
Dan McEwen
wrote:
>Aleph Press wrote:
>>
>> Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
>> and Peter getting together?
>
>[snip]
>
>> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
>
>Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
Yeah, back in the 180's of UXM.
Jim Smith
>
> On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:13:55 -0500, Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Aleph Press wrote:
> >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
> >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
> Yeah, back in the 180's of UXM.
Sigh.
OK, since you all seem to just take it for granted, I guess I have to
make myself clearer:
*Why*, in heaven's name, did Colossus date a 13-year-old?
Last time I checked, this isn't the Legion books, and they can't just
make up some "age of consent is lower in the future" trick.
Jim Smith
Jim Smith
>
> Jim Smith wrote:
>
> >Aleph Press wrote:
> >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
> >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
> Actually she was 14. You can read the story in UXM #184.
Let's see...13 < 14 < 18...
Methinks you are missing the point here...
Jim Smith
Jim Smith
al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
> : > Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
> : Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
> Kitty and Peter Rasputin (not Pete Wisdom)
I'm not *that* dumb, Alara.
were going out when she was 13
> and he was 19.
Illuminating (Peter, much like Mike Tyson, *never* looked 19), but nonetheless
creepy. This is really just...egggh.
Jim Smith
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Aleph Press
: > Yeah, back in the 180's of UXM.
: Sigh.
: OK, since you all seem to just take it for granted, I guess I have to
: make myself clearer:
: *Why*, in heaven's name, did Colossus date a 13-year-old?
He liked her.
: Last time I checked, this isn't the Legion books, and they can't just
: make up some "age of consent is lower in the future" trick.
They weren't having sex. This was made quite clear.
Kitty's mature for her age, and was interested in older guys, and it was
a sweet, romantic, sipping-the-same-drink-through-two-straws kind of
relationship. At one point when they thought they were going to die,
Kitty offered sex, and Peter said it would be a bad idea. So I don't
think there was anything wrong with it from an age standpoint. I just
don't think it works *now.*
Chandre Darkstorm
> a sweet, romantic, sipping-the-same-drink-through-two-straws kind of
> relationship. At one point when they thought they were going to die,
> Kitty offered sex, and Peter said it would be a bad idea. So I don't
> think there was anything wrong with it from an age standpoint. I just
> don't think it works *now.*
Agreed. It's all wrong. It feels contrived. They aren't the same
people they used to be, they've both been with other people... and with
Callisto still looming in the X-background... it would just be too much
work. Screw it (pun intended). They don't mesh like that anymore. I
can see both of them having soft spots for one another... but not to the
point that they have resumed dating. Maybe later... when they're both a
little more mature, especially Peter.
Chandre.
Brandon Blatcher
> Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
> and Peter getting together?
Hello, this is Doctor Krane, and I'm listening...
> No, I never understood their relaitonship in the first place. No, I
> always thought Kitty could do better. No, Colossus does bore me. But that
> isn't the real reason.
I always rather liked Colossus and the fact that he was sensative artiste
and farmer, which contrasted nicely with his powers. Brandon loves
contrast.
Of couse why he would stick with the X-Men for years is beyond me,
especially after what happened to his family and Illyana. But still, I
like the character and actively deplore what was done with him during AoA
and having him join Magneto.
> A while ago I was in love with a guy, and I thought we were going to get
> married. We were best friends, soulmates, everything and that on a stick.
> I thought, anyway. And then out of *nowhere* he tells me our relationship
> isn't working (to be fair, it wasn't out of nowhere, it just seemed like
> that to me-- none so blind as those who will not see, etc.) Now we are
> close friends. He's my best male friend, a dear pal, a buddy, my roommate
> and housemate and all around bud, and if he begged me to take him back
> I'd look at him like he was a bug on my shoe and go "No." Very, very coldly.
>
> Kitty, of course, is not me.
I just want to take a moment and point out that we're both arguing about
fictional characters. I've got some extra meds, if you need some.
>But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
> a *dead* woman *he didn't know.*
The whole point was that he *did know her* or felt as though he did. In a
wordless way, he felt very much at home with her.
>Was he being faithful to the memory of
> Zsaji?
He was being faithful to his feelings.
>Zsaji, recall, was making out with Johnny Storm. Was he being fair
> to Kitty? He broke her heart over *nothing*. She was emotionally insecure
> and felt that guys wouldn't like her because she wasn't sexy like
> Illyana, and Peter just assured her that this was in fact true by dumping
> her for a beautiful dead chick.
Sigh. To Peter it wasn't nothing, it was someone who made him feel a way
Kitty couldn't and Peter liked those feelings. That's a good reason to
break up with someone, when you realize someone else makes you feel better
or different. And why is it all Peter's fault? Show me a 13 year old that
isn't emotionally insecure. Peter assured her of NOTHING, her insecurities
were her own and she had to own up to that. and though Peter was 19, that
doesn't mean he was mature. He was young, in love and confused, so he did
what he thought best. Did he make a mistake by not giving him and Kitty a
chance? I don' think so, he felt what he felt and feelings could not be
denied. And what were they to have a chance at? Who else had they dated?
It was good for them to break up at some point so that they could date
other people. Finally, why does it have to be anyone's fault? People fall
at of love for a variety of reasons. They had a relationship, it feel
apart, end of story.
> If Kitty ever takes him back after this, it will be a sign that Kitty is
> a doormat who thinks she'll never get a better man. And Kitty is not a
> doormat, and she's *had* other men.
Why does it make her a doormat?! WHY?! Maybe she would realize they were
both young and foolish and didnt' know any better. Maybe, just maybe, she
might think that despite his faults, Peter might be a man she really
loves. Why you think it makes her a doormat is beyond me.
> How can she prevent him from dumping her like that again?
She can't. That's not the point. The point is to trust him, if she wanted
to. I think one of the secrets to life and love is realize that you can't
control people and they are going to do what they want to do. All you can
do is decide if you want to except that and love'em for it. Or not.
>Or going nuts,
> again?
Peter going nuts was one of the lamest stories ever, right up there with
Illyana's death issue. Quitting the X-Men, sure. Trying to find another
way to solve the mutant problem, sure. Being angry as hell with the X-Men,
sure. But turning on them, in the middle of a fight, to someone who has
tried to kill them and him repeatedly?! Suuuuuuuurrre. His family was
killed because of power hungry mutants. So what does he do, just go and
and join one of them? Suuuuuuure.
>Or getting all insecure about her intelligent male friends, again?
When did he ever do this? and if he did, maybe he's grown.
> Nope nope nope. He's a loser, Kitty. Don't go near him. be his bud, be
> his pal,
But why be a bud, a pal to a loser?
>but if you ever seriously contemplate being his girlfriend
> again,
God, forbid, she ever think about it, huh?
>I will just have to write a story where the ghost of Illyana
> returns and whacks you with a big stick. "NO! You and my brother would be
> *bad* for each other. DON'T DO IT!"
You go girl!
For the record, I'm not to keen on seeing Kitty and Peter back together,
serious relationship wise. I don't see it. I'd rather see Callisto and
Peter explored, this would be quite cool.
> The moral of the story is: Alara is not into being a doormat for men who
> dump her, and thinks Kitty shouldn't be either. :-)
Stop thinking of it as being a doormat and you'll be fine.
-Brandon
Jim Smith
> : OK, since you all seem to just take it for granted, I guess I have to
> : make myself clearer:
> : *Why*, in heaven's name, did Colossus date a 13-year-old?
>
> He liked her.
I like my cat, but you don't see me...oh, that's just *too* twisted.
> : Last time I checked, this isn't the Legion books, and they can't just
> : make up some "age of consent is lower in the future" trick.
>
> They weren't having sex. This was made quite clear.
I didn't say they were. (Frankly, I didn't want to think about it. Thanks
ever so much for the mental image. The goofy John Byrne faces make for a
real great show.) I find it rather strange that an adult has to have sex
with his child lover before it becomes disturbing.
> Kitty's mature for her age, and was interested in older guys,
Point out five teenage girls who *aren't* interested in older guys. Yeah, I
can see where Kitty would have a crush on Colossus, but I sure don't see why
Peter would reciprocate any of this. This is usually where the adult tells
to child that sooner or later she'll find someone her own age and forget all
about him.
And yes, a 19-year-old Peter would be an adult and a 13-year-old Kitty would
be a child. *Especially* in Peter's mind. I'm not far removed from 19, and
you better believe: Even in the bizarre instance that sex is the last thing
on their minds, 19-year-old guys don't entertain the notion of dating
seventh-graders.
Ugh, this day's discovery is going to send chills up my spine for the rest of
my life. What's *with* these X-books, anyway?
VLADIMIR JOSEPH
Its like i told you before Alara,
Colossus is a shameless player. He might be fooling other people, but not
me.
I got friends like Colossus. Honest.
People who date 2 people at the same time, go out with 6 women in one
month etc.
And when they have trouble,i'm the one who give them advice.
THe fact is ... ..KITTY CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF BAD BOYS.
Just be artistic and have an attitude and she's all yours.
Ever seen a bad boy WITHOUT a girlfriend, or at least 3 girlfriends ?
Maybe in Bizarro world, not on our earth of earth 616.
Colossus ,deep down , knows this, and so does pete wisdom
Simple as that.
Until i see a rap video that doesn't end with "to be continued"
Vj,fashion mobster,moral mafia,el brujo,honorary spetsnaz,almost zidane ?
--
These words were meant to you (...)
and only you ....
I loved someone before i fall in love with you.
Menshevik
As a matter of fact I'm not sure about the age of consent thing. I
vaguely recall Piotr making a comment not long before the breakup
that back home in his village, he and Kitty would already be
married.
And I do seem to recall there being 14-year old brides in some
parts of the US as well.
AGr3691541
McEwen) writes:
>On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:08:43 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
>>Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
>>and Peter getting together?
>>
>>Kitty, of course, is not me. But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
>>a *dead* woman *he didn't know.* Was he being faithful to the memory of
>>Zsaji? Zsaji, recall, was making out with Johnny Storm. Was he being fair
>>to Kitty? He broke her heart over *nothing*. She was emotionally insecure
>>and felt that guys wouldn't like her because she wasn't sexy like
>>Illyana, and Peter just assured her that this was in fact true by dumping
>>her for a beautiful dead chick.
>
>Alara, I feel pretty much the same way. I always felt that Kitty and
>Peter were done *forever* when he dumped her for Zsaji. Kitty went
>through a lot of pain and grief over his decision. He didn't even
>offer her the opportunity to try to make things work out with Kitty.
>I hate the idea of those two ever being together again.
>
I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him. Ideally
he'd have said from the off he didn't love her, but it took someone else to
prove it.
The both suffered from the split - but grew up. Soon after it, neither really
mention it again. The biggest problem is that since the split Kitty has had a
pretty consistent character development while Colossus has been poorly handled
by writers into being an angst-ridden pubescant again.
They should not get back together.
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
Lazy Line Painter Al
Dan McEwen
wrote:
>Dan McEwen wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:13:55 -0500, Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Aleph Press wrote:
>
>> >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
>
>> >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
>
>> Yeah, back in the 180's of UXM.
>
>Sigh.
>
>OK, since you all seem to just take it for granted, I guess I have to
>make myself clearer:
>
>*Why*, in heaven's name, did Colossus date a 13-year-old?
>
>Last time I checked, this isn't the Legion books, and they can't just
>make up some "age of consent is lower in the future" trick.
Why not? Kitty was unusually mature for her age. If she's old enough
to go out and risk her life, I think she should be old enough to
decide who she wants to date. It wasn't legal for them to have sex,
but that was hardly a major part of their relationship. Or perhaps
Peter was less mature than we all thought.
Dan McEwen
wrote:
>> Kitty's mature for her age, and was interested in older guys,
>
>Point out five teenage girls who *aren't* interested in older guys. Yeah, I
>can see where Kitty would have a crush on Colossus, but I sure don't see why
>Peter would reciprocate any of this. This is usually where the adult tells
>to child that sooner or later she'll find someone her own age and forget all
>about him.
You have to also consider that age-consent laws vary considerably
around the world. Just because such a relationship is looked down on
in the US, doesn't mean it is in, oh, say the Soviet Union.
Dan McEwen
JOSEPH ) wrote:
>People who date 2 people at the same time, go out with 6 women in one
>month etc.
Um, Peter didn't do that. He had a little fling with Zsaji on the
Beyonder's world, and broke up with Kitty as soon as he got the
chance.
>THe fact is ... ..KITTY CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF BAD BOYS.
That's hardly what I'd call Peter.
>Just be artistic and have an attitude and she's all yours.
Callisto (a younger version) is better for Peter. Those two were an
excellent match when he was Peter Nicholas and she was a super model.
Dan McEwen
>I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
>Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
>Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
>knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him.
Who says her crush wasn't true love? I'm not sure why people that
that teenagers are incapable of having the same feelings as adults.
> Ideally
>he'd have said from the off he didn't love her, but it took someone else to
>prove it.
>The both suffered from the split - but grew up. Soon after it, neither really
>mention it again.
This just goes to show how mature Kitty really was. She was able to
get past Peter dumping her. For the record, though, it wasn't dropped
immediately. Sure, Kitty ran off to Japan and became a ninja, but
Kitty also agreed to marry Caliban so Peter wouldn't die. This was
not very long after the breakup. It was clear she still had strong
feelings for Peter. The main thing with Kitty was that she didn't
make a fool out of herself by constantly whining about the situation.
>The biggest problem is that since the split Kitty has had a
>pretty consistent character development while Colossus has been poorly handled
>by writers into being an angst-ridden pubescant again.
>They should not get back together.
Agreed on everything here. Kitty has been fairly consistent (though
that horrid costume from EXCALIBUR is thankfully going away). Peter
hasn't made sense for quite some time now, beginning mostly from UXM
#303 onward to now. Hopefully that's going to change.
AGr3691541
McEwen) writes:
>On 08 Aug 1998 11:41:20 GMT, agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
>
>
>>I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
>>Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
>>Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
>>knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him.
>
>Who says her crush wasn't true love? I'm not sure why people that
>that teenagers are incapable of having the same feelings as adults.
Well I used the crush to specifically relate to instances where it isn't true
love.
And in this case, it wasn't.
>> Ideally
>>he'd have said from the off he didn't love her, but it took someone else to
>>prove it.
>>The both suffered from the split - but grew up. Soon after it, neither
>really
>>mention it again.
>
>This just goes to show how mature Kitty really was. She was able to
>get past Peter dumping her. For the record, though, it wasn't dropped
>immediately. Sure, Kitty ran off to Japan and became a ninja, but
>Kitty also agreed to marry Caliban so Peter wouldn't die. This was
>not very long after the breakup. It was clear she still had strong
>feelings for Peter. The main thing with Kitty was that she didn't
>make a fool out of herself by constantly whining about the situation.
That's true, but Kitty's actions would have been the same for most of the X-me,
but I was thinking of over a year later - Colossus and Kitty were both on the
team but obviously not pining for each other - indeed Colossus went on to have
a relationship with Callisto and Kitty fancied Alistair Stewart and (Goddamn
you ice-weasel haters!) have a relationship with Pete Wisdom without either
moaning on about Colossus.
>>The biggest problem is that since the split Kitty has had a
>>pretty consistent character development while Colossus has been poorly
>handled
>>by writers into being an angst-ridden pubescant again.
>>They should not get back together.
>
>Agreed on everything here. Kitty has been fairly consistent (though
>that horrid costume from EXCALIBUR is thankfully going away). Peter
>hasn't made sense for quite some time now, beginning mostly from UXM
>#303 onward to now. Hopefully that's going to change.
Exactly, Kelly's already acknowledged that Callisto and Colossus have strong
feelings for each other - I hope he explores this relationship while continuing
Kitty's transition from plucky teenage to mature woman that Claremont, Davis
and Ellis were all making.
Lazy Line Painter Al
Indigo
>
[snippage]
> Its like i told you before Alara,
>
>
>
Okay, then explain Doug Ramsey and his clone Rigby. Neither one of them were
"bad boys", and she liked both of them. Wisdom, for that matter was an ex bad
boy, trying to clean up his act. And he was definitely not artistic.
Talk about sweeping generalizations.
If you're going to take shots at somebody's POV, it would probably be better
to have something with which to back up your own POV.
And for the record, I too am opposed to the Kitty/Piotr thing.
She's way, way way, as in quantum leaps beyond him.
And, as a friend pointed out to me last night:
it does NOT bode well for Kitty that she's getting involved with a man who has
such trouble controlling his rage and/or impulses that he nearly beat her last
boyfriend to _death_ in a fit of jealousy.
Let's hope Piotr doesn't start going out drinking with Kurt and Logan, too.
Piotr isn't known for holding his liquor either.
But aside from that:
Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
Piotr is definitely not.
Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
Then there's the matter of Nereel.
Wisdom can think for himself.
Piotr is a lost little lamb without someone giving him orders and telling him
what to do.
Wisdom drinks and/or smokes when he's upset. Colossus rips tree trunks out of
the ground, or does violence to whatever's handy (including Wisdom -- and
Colossus didn't even make it a fair fight. He was STEEL when he beat Wisdom.)
Wisdom is more than the hot knives he wields. Admittedly he isn't the space
age whiz kid Kat is, but he does have the whole Black Air background. Piotr
is redundant since Rogue's long been the team muscle; furthermore, he's been
a farmer and after the Siege, briefly, an artist. Little else.
Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the past,
and is someone she's matured past.
I don't blame Alara for "getting emotional."
However -- I *am* curious as to why people insist that Kitty/Peter *belong*
together.
I was horrified to see the vote on www.x-men.com so in favor of a Kitty/Peter
romance.
Is it just that "they are married and together in Days of Future Past"?
It's not like that had to be their first marriage.
I mean, Claremont wrote DoFP, but he also wrote Piotr's fling with Nereel
(even if he didn't write the fling with Zsaji).
I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on this one -- I know why people
don't like Wisdom. I want to know why people like Colossus so much.
Indigo
Indigo
fe...@lsh.org (Dan McEwen) wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:08:43 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
> >Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
> >and Peter getting together?
> >
> >Kitty, of course, is not me. But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
> >a *dead* woman *he didn't know.* Was he being faithful to the memory of
> >Zsaji? Zsaji, recall, was making out with Johnny Storm. Was he being fair
> >to Kitty? He broke her heart over *nothing*. She was emotionally insecure
> >and felt that guys wouldn't like her because she wasn't sexy like
> >Illyana, and Peter just assured her that this was in fact true by dumping
> >her for a beautiful dead chick.
>
> Alara, I feel pretty much the same way. I always felt that Kitty and
> Peter were done *forever* when he dumped her for Zsaji. Kitty went
> through a lot of pain and grief over his decision. He didn't even
> offer her the opportunity to try to make things work out with Kitty.
> I hate the idea of those two ever being together again.
>
Peter was, with Zsaji and Nereel, the proverbial kid let loose in the candy
store, who went nuts and then remembered he had something great waiting for
him at home...or would have, if he hadn't gone nuts in the candy store.
Kitty deserves better.
Here's hoping Alara's right and that the Kitty/Piotr romance dies a fast,
ignoble death and that Piotr leaves the team to go shack up with Nereel and
his son in the Savage Land (if it hasn't flooded).
Indigo
Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Menshevik wrote:
> >
> > Jim Smith wrote:
> >
> > >Aleph Press wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Let's see...13 < 14 < 18...
>
> Methinks you are missing the point here...
>
> Jim Smith
>
Piotr dumped her once and broke her heart at a very important, vulnerable time
in her life.
He then went nuts at Illyana's funeral.
He then went to hang with Magneto on Avalone.
He then came back to earth, looking for "his katya" to still be _waiting_ for
him all this time.
He then found her with someone else, went completely berserk, and nearly beat
said someone else to death *with his steel fists*.
Piotr is mentally unstable and dangerous. He has a skewed grasp of reality,
and that's aside from having little intellectually in common with Kitty. He
admits he's not as smart as she is. That's a problem right there. Some men
(as Indigo carefully tiptoes through the minefield of "sweeping
generalizations") are not so self-confident that they're not intimidated by a
woman quite obviously smarter.
We're just lucky Kitty can phase. It will come in handy when Piotr loses it
again.
Indigo
nom...@mindspring.com (Brandon Blatcher) wrote:
> In article <alephEx...@netcom.com>, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
> Of couse why he would stick with the X-Men for years is beyond me,
> especially after what happened to his family and Illyana. But still, I
> like the character and actively deplore what was done with him during AoA
> and having him join Magneto.
Where else is he going to go? Not like he'll want to go back to the
Collective in the Homeland. He's seen the world, and Russia just won't do it
for him anymore -- not to mention the memories of his family.
Perhaps he could go underground and be with Callisto. But I don't see him
flourishing in that environment.
>
[snip]
> >But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
> > a *dead* woman *he didn't know.*
>
> The whole point was that he *did know her* or felt as though he did. In a
> wordless way, he felt very much at home with her.
No -- he didn't feel he knew her. She just seduced him, like any exotically
beautiful woman can seduce a 19 year old who hasn't had much more experience
than an awkward 13 year old.
>
> >Was he being faithful to the memory of
> > Zsaji?
>
> He was being faithful to his feelings.
>
He was being 19 and following his hormones -- same as he did in the Savage
Land with Nereel.
>
> Sigh. To Peter it wasn't nothing, it was someone who made him feel a way
> Kitty couldn't and Peter liked those feelings.
Sure it was. You don't see him still going "Sigh...if only...Zsaji..." to
this day. For that matter, you don't see him sighing over what could've been
with Kitty either -- instead, he went ballistic and nearly murdered Wisdom
because "his katya" was with another guy.
IOW, Piotr didn't give Kitty the credit she deserves for having CHOSEN
another man on her own. He automatically assumed Wisdom was doing something
to make her stay with him.
No woman belongs with a man who believes that she doesn't have a mind of her
own and can't think for herself.
Did he make a mistake by not giving him and Kitty a
> chance? I don' think so, he felt what he felt and feelings could not be
> denied.
A lot of 19 year olds aren't into denying lust.
And what were they to have a chance at? Who else had they dated?
> It was good for them to break up at some point so that they could date
> other people. Finally, why does it have to be anyone's fault? People fall
> at of love for a variety of reasons. They had a relationship, it feel
> apart, end of story.
It didn't fall apart. Piotr blew it off.
>
> > If Kitty ever takes him back after this, it will be a sign that Kitty is
> > a doormat who thinks she'll never get a better man. And Kitty is not a
> > doormat, and she's *had* other men.
>
> Why does it make her a doormat?! WHY?! Maybe she would realize they were
> both young and foolish and didnt' know any better.
Because she'd be taking back a man who *currently* displays violent
tendencies and a mindset that indicates she (like himself) can't think for
herself and make her own decisions.
Maybe, just maybe, she
> might think that despite his faults, Peter might be a man she really
> loves. Why you think it makes her a doormat is beyond me.
See above. It's being a doormat to accept being treated like "his katya" and
allowing him to act like she can't make up her own mind and choose who she
wants.
>
> > How can she prevent him from dumping her like that again?
>
> She can't. That's not the point. The point is to trust him, if she wanted
> to.
I don't know about Kitty, but I'd have a problem trusting Colossus.
The 13/18 thing aside, he betrayed the X-Men in his madness/grief over
Illyana's death.
He then betrayed Kitty as a person on a very basic level by assuming Wisdom
had *done* something to her, and beating him nearly to death with steel
fists.
Then of course there's the fact that he went loopy for Meggan (and she for
him), knowing full well she was 1) an empath and 2) taken.
I think one of the secrets to life and love is realize that you can't
> control people and they are going to do what they want to do. All you can
> do is decide if you want to except that and love'em for it. Or not.
>
Not. Asking Kitty to accept Piotr is asking an *awful* lot.
> >Or going nuts,
> > again?
>
> Peter going nuts was one of the lamest stories ever, right up there with
> Illyana's death issue. Quitting the X-Men, sure. Trying to find another
> way to solve the mutant problem, sure. Being angry as hell with the X-Men,
> sure. But turning on them, in the middle of a fight, to someone who has
> tried to kill them and him repeatedly?! Suuuuuuuurrre. His family was
> killed because of power hungry mutants. So what does he do, just go and
> and join one of them? Suuuuuuure.
Mental instability.
Further proven by his treatment of Wisdom.
But aside from that -- considering his turning on the X-Men for Magneto and
then coming back -- why did they *accept* him back? They don't have much
track record for "helping" X-Men with emotional/powers problems, really.
>
> >Or getting all insecure about her intelligent male friends, again?
>
> When did he ever do this? and if he did, maybe he's grown.
>
He hasn't grown at all. That's the problem.
> > Nope nope nope. He's a loser, Kitty. Don't go near him. be his bud, be
> > his pal,
>
> But why be a bud, a pal to a loser?
>
Because it's better than being girlfriend/lover/accessory to one?
> >but if you ever seriously contemplate being his girlfriend
> > again,
>
> God, forbid, she ever think about it, huh?
>
She can think about it and then realize, "this is the man who treated me
like I was under an Evil Spell when he found me with Wisdom and proceeded to
nearly kill him. This is the man who considers me "his Katya" and I haven't
been a 'kitten' to anybody -- not Kurt, not Logan, in *years*. Hmmm...."
That'd be just fine, thank you.
> >I will just have to write a story where the ghost of Illyana
> > returns and whacks you with a big stick. "NO! You and my brother would be
> > *bad* for each other. DON'T DO IT!"
>
> You go girl!
Heh.
>
> For the record, I'm not to keen on seeing Kitty and Peter back together,
> serious relationship wise. I don't see it. I'd rather see Callisto and
> Peter explored, this would be quite cool.
>
Agreed. Cal would be good for him, too, I think.
I think Meggan would've been good for him too, but the wedding must go on.
> > The moral of the story is: Alara is not into being a doormat for men who
> > dump her, and thinks Kitty shouldn't be either. :-)
>
> Stop thinking of it as being a doormat and you'll be fine.
>
Okay, Brandon if she's not a doormat, then what *do* you call it when a woman
chooses to go back to a man with a history of treating her like an accessory?
"My katya is waiting for me"?
Aleph Press
: Jim Smith wrote:
: >Point out five teenage girls who *aren't* interested in older guys. Yeah, I
: >can see where Kitty would have a crush on Colossus, but I sure don't see why
: >Peter would reciprocate any of this. This is usually where the adult tells
: >to child that sooner or later she'll find someone her own age and forget all
: >about him.
: >
: >And yes, a 19-year-old Peter would be an adult and a 13-year-old Kitty would
: >be a child. *Especially* in Peter's mind. I'm not far removed from 19, and
: >you better believe: Even in the bizarre instance that sex is the last thing
: >on their minds, 19-year-old guys don't entertain the notion of dating
: >seventh-graders.
It doesn't disturb me. When I was 22 years old, I hung out with a gang of
friends ranging in age from 13 to 19. The 13-year-old was one of the most
mature of the bunch. I didn't *date* him-- I was dating the 19-year-old--
but I didn't think he was a hopeless child, either. All it would take is
for a 13-year-old to be as mature as my friend Jason (which Kitty was, at
*least*), and a 19-year-old to be as immature as I was when I was 22
(which Peter could well be), and voila. She has an emotional age of 16,
he has an emotional age of 17, it all works out.
Besides, he didn't know any women younger than him who were older than
Kitty. You'd be surprised at how strongly being lunmped into the same
category with someone as "the young ones" can affect perceptions of age.
My brother and I were always treated as equals, despite the fact that I
was 3 years old than him. My little brother was treated as an equal to my
young cousins, despite the fact that he's 7 years older than the oldest
one and 9 older than the youngest! In the X-Men, Kitty and Peter were
"the youngest", and that caused them to think of themselves as pretty
close to the same age.
: As a matter of fact I'm not sure about the age of consent thing. I
: vaguely recall Piotr making a comment not long before the breakup
: that back home in his village, he and Kitty would already be
: married.
Could well be true.
: And I do seem to recall there being 14-year old brides in some
: parts of the US as well.
However, *not* in New York State. Our age of consent is 16.
Aleph Press
: I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
: Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
: Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
: knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him. Ideally
: he'd have said from the off he didn't love her, but it took someone else to
: prove it.
Well, yes. They were both young naive gits. I blame Peter more than Kitty
because, well, he's older. He *shouldn't* have gotten involved with such
a young girl, and when he broke up with her, he should have made it clear
it was because he'd realized that what he'd been feeling all along hadn't
been love, not because he'd fallen in love with someone else, who was
conveniently dead. Zsaji was an excuse.
: The both suffered from the split - but grew up. Soon after it, neither really
: mention it again. The biggest problem is that since the split Kitty has had a
: pretty consistent character development while Colossus has been poorly handled
: by writers into being an angst-ridden pubescant again.
: They should not get back together.
Peter, definitely, needs some writing assistance, desperately.
Aleph Press
: Piotr dumped her once and broke her heart at a very important, vulnerable time
: in her life.
: He then went nuts at Illyana's funeral.
: He then went to hang with Magneto on Avalone.
Magneto groupie that I am, I'd just like to add here "and then he
immediately betrayed Magneto by shutting down Avalon's defenses so the
X-Men could ge aboard."
: He then came back to earth, looking for "his katya" to still be _waiting_ for
: him all this time.
: He then found her with someone else, went completely berserk, and nearly beat
: said someone else to death *with his steel fists*.
: Piotr is mentally unstable and dangerous. He has a skewed grasp of reality,
: and that's aside from having little intellectually in common with Kitty. He
: admits he's not as smart as she is. That's a problem right there. Some men
: (as Indigo carefully tiptoes through the minefield of "sweeping
: generalizations") are not so self-confident that they're not intimidated by a
: woman quite obviously smarter.
This would not be a problem were it not for the fact that we've *seen*
Peter being jealous of Kitty's smart male friends, such as Doug Ramsey.
Kitty was also smarter than Pete Wisdom, but *he* didn't care.
: We're just lucky Kitty can phase. It will come in handy when Piotr loses it
: again.
Unless a miracle occurs and someone hels the poor kid get his head on
straight. I still think he needs to leave the X-life, take an extended
sabbatical, rediscover his art, fall in love with someone new (or go
back to Nereel), fall into Limbo and rescue his little
sister who's on her way back from wherever she's been all this time...
uh, okay, I guess that last doesn't *have* to happen, but it would go a
long way toward making a Colossus story *I'd* want to read. :-)
AGr3691541
>AGr3691541 (agr36...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
>: Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
>: Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
>: knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him.
>Ideally
>: he'd have said from the off he didn't love her, but it took someone else to
>: prove it.
>
>Well, yes. They were both young naive gits. I blame Peter more than Kitty
>because, well, he's older. He *shouldn't* have gotten involved with such
>a young girl, and when he broke up with her, he should have made it clear
>it was because he'd realized that what he'd been feeling all along hadn't
>been love, not because he'd fallen in love with someone else, who was
>conveniently dead. Zsaji was an excuse.
He's not to know that though - in fact the death of Zsaji would make thing ten
times worse for him.
No-one with little experience of relationships can pragmatically dissect a
situation like that, especialy when they're stuck in the middle of it, as
Colossus was - nor expect them to know the best way of dealing with it.
>
>: The both suffered from the split - but grew up. Soon after it, neither
>really
>: mention it again. The biggest problem is that since the split Kitty has had
>a
>: pretty consistent character development while Colossus has been poorly
>handled
>: by writers into being an angst-ridden pubescant again.
>: They should not get back together.
>
>Peter, definitely, needs some writing assistance, desperately.
>
The worst thing is that the break-up Lobdell engineered and his return to
Excalibur were really poorly executed. The Colossus of the Mutant Massacre
would not have viewed Kitty as *his*. But the fact that it has happened does
suggest ... well, Colossus is too dangerous for Kitty to be involved with.
This prevents any serious discussion on it, because how can you define the
serious emotions of a seriously poorly written character.
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
writes:
>In article <35CB70D8...@hotmail.com>,
> Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Menshevik wrote:
>> >
>> > Jim Smith wrote:
>> >
>> > >Aleph Press wrote:
>>
>> > >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
>>
>> > >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
>>
>> > Actually she was 14. You can read the story in UXM #184.
>>
>> Let's see...13 < 14 < 18...
>>
>> Methinks you are missing the point here...
>>
>> Jim Smith
>>
>I'm not.
>
>Piotr dumped her once and broke her heart at a very important, vulnerable
>time
>in her life.
Hardly, Piotr realised the relationship was a lie and ended. It would have been
more cruel to keep it going and feed Kitty's naive crush
>He then went nuts at Illyana's funeral.
Considering his unpatriotic decision to join the X-men has led to the death of
his brother, sister and family in a very short period of time - I doubt anyone,
let alone a stoicly repressed guy like Piotr, can remain calm and unstressed in
such a situation.
>He then went to hang with Magneto on Avalone.
Well Xavier had failed, why not.
He was then tricked by Kitty into returning - a nice little act of betrayel.
>He then came back to earth, looking for "his katya" to still be _waiting_ for
>him all this time.
The guy was clearly insane at this point. He needs time to readjust after a
period of suffering from extremely poor writing.
>He then found her with someone else, went completely berserk, and nearly beat
>said someone else to death *with his steel fists*.
see above.
>Piotr is mentally unstable and dangerous.
Or Colossus has been poorly written for many years now.
> He has a skewed grasp of reality,
>and that's aside from having little intellectually in common with Kitty. He
>admits he's not as smart as she is. That's a problem right there. Some men
>(as Indigo carefully tiptoes through the minefield of "sweeping
>generalizations") are not so self-confident that they're not intimidated by a
>woman quite obviously smarter.
And Kitty's reason for choosing Digby over Wisdom was?
>We're just lucky Kitty can phase. It will come in handy when Piotr loses it
>again.
And Colossus is equally lucky to have steel skin, in case Kitty gets
'repossessed' by Ogun and tries to kill him.
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
writes:
>> > The moral of the story is: Alara is not into being a doormat for men who
>> > dump her, and thinks Kitty shouldn't be either. :-)
>>
>> Stop thinking of it as being a doormat and you'll be fine.
>>
>Okay, Brandon if she's not a doormat, then what *do* you call it when a woman
>chooses to go back to a man with a history of treating her like an accessory?
>"My katya is waiting for me"?
One poorly written issue is not 'a history'
Colossus dumped Kitty because the relationship had ended.
After he got beaten up by Juggernaut 'cos Wolverine thought he wasn't suffering
enough for it - the two were able to recognise the end and get on with their
lives as part of a team for many years before the X-men *died*
Then they *made* Colossus mad. This is the World of comics - people can be mad
and murderous one issue and forgiven and reformed the next - that's what
happened with Colossus, by #100 of Excalibur he'd accepted Kitty/Pete and was
an asset to the team.
Lazy Line Painter Al
Chandre Darkstorm
>
> Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
> backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
> mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
> Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
>
being emotionally estranged from him, was the WORST thing Kitty could
have done. It was tearing them apart, and staying in an unhealthy
relationship like that is even worse than breaking up. Wisdom
acknowledged that to Nightmare, it was the only way that Wisdom beat
him.
Kitty effectively did to Peter Wisdom what Peter Rasputin did to her:
she found out she didn't really love him, and basically put an end to
it. If Kitty got back with Wisdom, true, it would be a step forward...
depending on how Wisdom developed in the interim. If he's going to hold
it over her head, or if she never forgives herself for being attracted
to Rigby, then it was of no use. But if they reconcile and start
growing together, it's worth it.
> It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
> a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the past,
> and is someone she's matured past.
He never abused her physically... although what I saw in Generation Next
was really disturbing, thank God that was an alternate reality. And,
until his feelings were mixed up... he never mistreated her any worse
than any normal guy does in any normal relationship.
As to why people like him so much? Because he has always had a very
pure heart. He didn't do the things he did with malicious intent. He's
always been driven to do the right thing... no matter how much it pained
him. That sort of naive innocence has always been there, though it's
been severely tainted by others. He joined the Acolytes because he lost
sight of Xavier's version of the dream. He betrayed Magneto because he
knew what Mags did (the worldwide EMP pulse) was wrong. A tragic
character, indeed. The purity of his heart is still there in a high
degree.
As to him expecting "his Katya" to be waiting for him... I don't
necessarily think that he expected Kitty to be there to be his girl...
but there is a certain feeling of anger that comes when you think of how
Wisdom had *known* her, and she was so young. How many guys do you know
would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel? How many
brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
sisters/daughters? Peter has always been protective of Kitty. The
first time Peter took a life in anger was in UXM 211, and it was because
of Kitty getting hurt. I *will not* forget the look on his face, the
anger in his heart, as he held a limp Riptide in his hands, and then
turned to look for Harpoon. It's not an unnatural reaction, although it
is not necessarily right.
Kitty and Peter don't *belong* together. The strongest point for this
is that she has matured past him. When Peter gets his act together (in
about 10 more Marvel years) I'll look a little more favorably at it,
then.
Chandre.
Alleigh
wrote:
>In article <6qg606$e4l$1...@newsflash.concordia.ca>,
> v_j...@alcor.concordia.ca ( VLADIMIR JOSEPH ) wrote:
>> [Super Snip]
>>
>[snippage]
>> Its like i told you before Alara,
>>
>>
>> THe fact is ... ..KITTY CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF BAD BOYS.
>>
>> Just be artistic and have an attitude and she's all yours.
>
>Okay, then explain Doug Ramsey and his clone Rigby. Neither one of them were
>"bad boys", and she liked both of them. Wisdom, for that matter was an ex bad
>boy, trying to clean up his act. And he was definitely not artistic.
>
>Talk about sweeping generalizations.
>
>If you're going to take shots at somebody's POV, it would probably be better
>to have something with which to back up your own POV.
>
>And for the record, I too am opposed to the Kitty/Piotr thing.
>
>She's way, way way, as in quantum leaps beyond him.
>
>And, as a friend pointed out to me last night:
>
>it does NOT bode well for Kitty that she's getting involved with a man who has
>such trouble controlling his rage and/or impulses that he nearly beat her last
>boyfriend to _death_ in a fit of jealousy.
>
>Let's hope Piotr doesn't start going out drinking with Kurt and Logan, too.
>Piotr isn't known for holding his liquor either.
>
>But aside from that:
>
>Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
>Piotr is definitely not.
Here is my problem - a highly intelligent person cannot fall for a
dumber person. That intelligent people should be with other
intelligent people. How many people on Kitty's level do you know and
out of those who married/dating someone that is one or near that
level. Sorry but that statement kinda bothered me.
>Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
>Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
>Then there's the matter of Nereel.
Um wasn't Nereel before Kitty - or I are trying to say that Peter was
la "bimbo"
>Wisdom can think for himself.
>Piotr is a lost little lamb without someone giving him orders and telling him
>what to do.
>
>Wisdom drinks and/or smokes when he's upset. Colossus rips tree trunks out of
>the ground, or does violence to whatever's handy (including Wisdom -- and
>Colossus didn't even make it a fair fight. He was STEEL when he beat Wisdom.)
>
>Wisdom is more than the hot knives he wields. Admittedly he isn't the space
>age whiz kid Kat is, but he does have the whole Black Air background. Piotr
>is redundant since Rogue's long been the team muscle; furthermore, he's been
>a farmer and after the Siege, briefly, an artist. Little else.
>
>Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
>It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
But as you said Peter is not emotionally balanced - he is was probably
more on the level of a 15 year-old in the Secret Wars time - and I
think that the Wisdom beating was kinda out-of-character - then again
I think the whole Ellis run of Excalibur sucked and which it never
took place.
>a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the past,
>and is someone she's matured past.
Who wrote the Secret Wars? Was the breakup that Claremont wrote
because someone else had written a story that he felt he couldn't get
around. And I think that Kitty was mature enough that later on she
would of forgiven Peter - he really isn't that emotionally stable.
Then the DOFP could of happen. Other writers messed Peter up more -
explain to me how Ellis could write Peter trying to kill Pete and
almost suceeding but than in the Days Of Futures Yet To Come ( It
think that was the name of it) EVEN Ellis had Kitty and Peter getting
married. So it seems that if anything happeds - its because someone
(editor or something) thinks they are supposed to be a couple
>I don't blame Alara for "getting emotional."
>
>However -- I *am* curious as to why people insist that Kitty/Peter *belong*
>together.
I think they are interesting together - but I think Kitty should move
on. I think that in the alternate worlds it is fine for them to be
together. I guess it is like all the people that think Jean and Scott
should be together in every damn universe - and if they aren't then
better make sure they hook up - because everyone knows they can't
function without the other. (The What If issue that shows what
happened if Jean chose Logan - she blows up the planet because only
Scott could help her keep back her dark side - stupid story)
>I was horrified to see the vote on www.x-men.com so in favor of a Kitty/Peter
>romance.
They let you vote more than once - there could of been someone
stuffing the ballot box.
>Is it just that "they are married and together in Days of Future Past"?
>
>It's not like that had to be their first marriage.
>
>I mean, Claremont wrote DoFP, but he also wrote Piotr's fling with Nereel
>(even if he didn't write the fling with Zsaji).
>
>I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on this one -- I know why people
>don't like Wisdom. I want to know why people like Colossus so much.
Because to me Peter seemed like a real person - with emotional
problems yes - but real
Pete seemed like a 2-dmensional bad boy that was only created because
Ellis wanted Kitty to be dating a sleeping with someone
Brandon Blatcher
> In article <nomadic-0708...@user-37kbm5q.dialup.mindspring.com>,
> nom...@mindspring.com (Brandon Blatcher) wrote:
> > In article <alephEx...@netcom.com>, al...@netcom.com (Aleph
Press) wrote:
> >
> > [snippity]
>
> > Of couse why he would stick with the X-Men for years is beyond me,
> > especially after what happened to his family and Illyana. But still, I
> > like the character and actively deplore what was done with him during AoA
> > and having him join Magneto.
>
> Where else is he going to go? Not like he'll want to go back to the
> Collective in the Homeland. He's seen the world, and Russia just won't do it
> for him anymore -- not to mention the memories of his family.
Piotr could go anywhere he feels like. He had an art career in New York
and he probably has some money stashed away somewhere. Hell, he's an
artist, there are a number of places he might want to go, just to
paint'em.
The problem, I think, is that with the loss of family, he probably feels
like the X-Men are all he has and so he stays with them, which is the last
thing he should do.
> Perhaps he could go underground and be with Callisto. But I don't see him
> flourishing in that environment.
It would be too drab for him. More interesting would be for him to coax
Callisto out of the tunnels.
> [snip]
>
> > >But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
> > > a *dead* woman *he didn't know.*
> >
> > The whole point was that he *did know her* or felt as though he did. In a
> > wordless way, he felt very much at home with her.
>
> No -- he didn't feel he knew her. She just seduced him, like any exotically
> beautiful woman can seduce a 19 year old who hasn't had much more experience
> than an awkward 13 year old.
Piotr felt as though he was in love. I think that qualifies as "knew her"
to a 19 year old.
> > >Was he being faithful to the memory of
> > > Zsaji?
> >
> > He was being faithful to his feelings.
> >
>
> He was being 19 and following his hormones -- same as he did in the Savage
> Land with Nereel.
Kitty was 13 and following her hormones.
Nereel has nothing to do with this, as I recall, since she occurred waaaay
before Kitty was on the team.
> > Sigh. To Peter it wasn't nothing, it was someone who made him feel a way
> > Kitty couldn't and Peter liked those feelings.
>
> Sure it was. You don't see him still going "Sigh...if only...Zsaji..." to
> this day. For that matter, you don't see him sighing over what could've been
> with Kitty either -- instead, he went ballistic and nearly murdered Wisdom
> because "his katya" was with another guy.
X-men#188, whicha has Rachel Summers telling of a future where Pete and
Kitty are together, had Peter questioning if that's what he wanted. This
was after they broke up. New Mutants#26(?), where Rahne has Dagger's power
and can see into his soul, shows that Colossus was indeed quite torn up
about what he had done. X-Men#197 had him pining a lot for Zsaji, to the
point of talking to what he thought was Kitty about it. X-Men#210 had
Illyana and Peter talking, and Illyana notes that Peter still draws Kitty
and Peter admits to still having some sort of feelings for her. X-Men#211
has Pete quite willing to kill Harpoon when he injures Kitty, and he does
kill Riptide, who gets in his way of killing Harpoon.
> IOW, Piotr didn't give Kitty the credit she deserves for having CHOSEN
> another man on her own. He automatically assumed Wisdom was doing something
> to make her stay with him.
> No woman belongs with a man who believes that she doesn't have a mind of her
> own and can't think for herself.
I agree. But by that point, Ellis was writing him completely out of
character. Only issues earlier in X-men, he had been seen handling himself
just fine, with no thought of "his katya" He insane return to Excalibur
was quite unbelieavable.
> Did he make a mistake by not giving him and Kitty a
> > chance? I don' think so, he felt what he felt and feelings could not be
> > denied.
>
> A lot of 19 year olds aren't into denying lust.
It's obvious from Peter's own words that he felt it was something more. By
this point he had already had sex with Nereel and one other Savage Land
girl, so he feelings weren't about a virgin getting his first taste of
sex. He had already dated a dancer and a flight attendent, so he had some
idea of relationships and he seemed to care a little bit for the dancer,
she spoke to his heart, like Callisto did.
> And what were they to have a chance at? Who else had they dated?
> > It was good for them to break up at some point so that they could date
> > other people. Finally, why does it have to be anyone's fault? People fall
> > at of love for a variety of reasons. They had a relationship, it feel
> > apart, end of story.
>
> It didn't fall apart. Piotr blew it off.
Because he met someone else. Someone who spoke to his heart, which is what
Peter falls, really falls for. Good reason to end a realtionship.
> > > If Kitty ever takes him back after this, it will be a sign that Kitty is
> > > a doormat who thinks she'll never get a better man. And Kitty is not a
> > > doormat, and she's *had* other men.
> >
> > Why does it make her a doormat?! WHY?! Maybe she would realize they were
> > both young and foolish and didnt' know any better.
>
> Because she'd be taking back a man who *currently* displays violent
> tendencies and a mindset that indicates she (like himself) can't think for
> herself and make her own decisions.
I can't argue much with the violent tendencies thing. You and others
consider it fact, I think it was horrible rewriting of a character and
never should have occured.
> Maybe, just maybe, she
> > might think that despite his faults, Peter might be a man she really
> > loves. Why you think it makes her a doormat is beyond me.
>
> See above. It's being a doormat to accept being treated like "his katya" and
> allowing him to act like she can't make up her own mind and choose who she
> wants.
So Kitty DECIDING to go back with Peter is allowing him to act like she
can't make up her own mind and choose who she wants? Remember, it's
Kitty's choice. IF Kitty did decide to go back with him, I seriously doubt
she'd take any crap.
> > > How can she prevent him from dumping her like that again?
> >
> > She can't. That's not the point. The point is to trust him, if she wanted
> > to.
>
> I don't know about Kitty, but I'd have a problem trusting Colossus.
>
> The 13/18 thing aside, he betrayed the X-Men in his madness/grief over
> Illyana's death.
>
> He then betrayed Kitty as a person on a very basic level by assuming Wisdom
> had *done* something to her, and beating him nearly to death with steel
> fists.
Understandable. But like I said, I dont' think it was in character, it was
horrible plotting for him, and its easy for me to ignore it.
> Then of course there's the fact that he went loopy for Meggan (and she for
> him), knowing full well she was 1) an empath and 2) taken.
I thought it was established that Meggan went loopy for him. did I miss
something?
> I think one of the secrets to life and love is realize that you can't
> > control people and they are going to do what they want to do. All you can
> > do is decide if you want to except that and love'em for it. Or not.
> >
>
> Not. Asking Kitty to accept Piotr is asking an *awful* lot.
I would agree, even though I think those stories were crap and not true to
the character.
It's insane, the way the wrote him in AoA and in X-Men and Excalibur. Are
they trying to kill the character?
> > >Or going nuts,
> > > again?
> >
> > Peter going nuts was one of the lamest stories ever, right up there with
> > Illyana's death issue. Quitting the X-Men, sure. Trying to find another
> > way to solve the mutant problem, sure. Being angry as hell with the X-Men,
> > sure. But turning on them, in the middle of a fight, to someone who has
> > tried to kill them and him repeatedly?! Suuuuuuuurrre. His family was
> > killed because of power hungry mutants. So what does he do, just go and
> > and join one of them? Suuuuuuure.
>
> Mental instability.
> Further proven by his treatment of Wisdom.
Poor writing.
Further proven by his treatment of Wisdom.
> But aside from that -- considering his turning on the X-Men for Magneto and
> then coming back -- why did they *accept* him back? They don't have much
> track record for "helping" X-Men with emotional/powers problems, really.
They accepted Marrow. I can see'em taking Peter back. They're a humble but
forgivng people to an insane extent. Hell, just about every X-Men has been
"turned" by some bad guy and attacked the others.
> > >Or getting all insecure about her intelligent male friends, again?
> >
> > When did he ever do this? and if he did, maybe he's grown.
> >
> He hasn't grown at all. That's the problem.
So him offering consolation to Kitty on hearing about her breakup isn't
growing? That fact that he's a trusted member of Excalibur by Kurt and
Kitty, doesn't mean he's grown? His taking a more active role in leading
isn't growth?
> > > Nope nope nope. He's a loser, Kitty. Don't go near him. be his bud, be
> > > his pal,
> >
> > But why be a bud, a pal to a loser?
> >
>
> Because it's better than being girlfriend/lover/accessory to one?
Heh. I was arguing with the idea that he's a loser. Why hang out with a
loser at all?
> > >but if you ever seriously contemplate being his girlfriend
> > > again,
> >
> > God, forbid, she ever think about it, huh?
> >
>
> She can think about it and then realize, "this is the man who treated me
> like I was under an Evil Spell when he found me with Wisdom and proceeded to
> nearly kill him. This is the man who considers me "his Katya" and I haven't
> been a 'kitten' to anybody -- not Kurt, not Logan, in *years*. Hmmm...."
> That'd be just fine, thank you.
Is he still calling her "his Katya"?
As I recall, Kitty is her nickname, that everyone calls her.
> > >I will just have to write a story where the ghost of Illyana
> > > returns and whacks you with a big stick. "NO! You and my brother would be
> > > *bad* for each other. DON'T DO IT!"
> >
> > You go girl!
>
> Heh.
> >
> > For the record, I'm not to keen on seeing Kitty and Peter back together,
> > serious relationship wise. I don't see it. I'd rather see Callisto and
> > Peter explored, this would be quite cool.
> >
>
> Agreed. Cal would be good for him, too, I think.
> I think Meggan would've been good for him too, but the wedding must go on.
Meggan? Maybe for a little while, but not really. I want him and Callisto.
Meggan makes a good friend though.
> > > The moral of the story is: Alara is not into being a doormat for men who
> > > dump her, and thinks Kitty shouldn't be either. :-)
> >
> > Stop thinking of it as being a doormat and you'll be fine.
> >
> Okay, Brandon if she's not a doormat, then what *do* you call it when a woman
> chooses to go back to a man with a history of treating her like an accessory?
> "My katya is waiting for me"?
Someone smart enough to see when a character is badly written?:)
I think her going back with him IS dumb, just from the standpoint of them
not having much in common. Good friends would be perfect.
However, in a turn for the worse, Seagle in #360, seems to be pointing to
Piotr still pining for her. I think this is a mistake. I hope they don't
write the team like the 80's with Peter taking a back seat to everyone
else and moping in the background. Somebody needs to write a better
Colossus that has diddly to do with Kitty.
-Brandon
REALLY wants to see a Callisto and Colossus LS
Brandon Blatcher
(Indigo) wrote:
<snip>
>
> And for the record, I too am opposed to the Kitty/Piotr thing.
>
> She's way, way way, as in quantum leaps beyond him.
As he is to her.
> And, as a friend pointed out to me last night:
>
> it does NOT bode well for Kitty that she's getting involved with a man who has
> such trouble controlling his rage and/or impulses that he nearly beat her last
> boyfriend to _death_ in a fit of jealousy.
Bad writing.
> Let's hope Piotr doesn't start going out drinking with Kurt and Logan, too.
> Piotr isn't known for holding his liquor either.
So, one bad instance, a purposedly fabricted instance (remember Logan was
goading him, getting him quite drunk) makes the charcter?
> But aside from that:
>
> Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
> Piotr is definitely not.
I disagree. Peter is artist, evidently a very good one, which implies a
lot about his level of thought and abstract abilities. He just isn't
abstract like Kitty is, i.e. computer wise. That have different
intelluctual strengths. True Kitty's a genius, but that doesn't mean Piotr
is an idiot.
> Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
> Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
> Then there's the matter of Nereel.
Nereel was before Kitty ever joined the team
> Wisdom can think for himself.
> Piotr is a lost little lamb without someone giving him orders and telling him
> what to do.
Yes and no. He seems that way, but how do you explain his defense of the
Acolyte on Asteriod M. I think Piotr he needs to take more control of his
life and get away from the x-Men, but I don't think he's a little lost
lamb. Rather he's found a cause that seemingly appeals to his pure sense
of heart.
> Wisdom drinks and/or smokes when he's upset. Colossus rips tree trunks out of
> the ground, or does violence to whatever's handy (including Wisdom -- and
> Colossus didn't even make it a fair fight. He was STEEL when he beat Wisdom.)
Yes, drinking and smoking is SOOOOOO much better.
Piotr paints or draws when written well.
> Wisdom is more than the hot knives he wields. Admittedly he isn't the space
> age whiz kid Kat is, but he does have the whole Black Air background. Piotr
> is redundant since Rogue's long been the team muscle; furthermore, he's been
> a farmer and after the Siege, briefly, an artist. Little else.
Or is it Rogue who is redundant since Peter was the muscle long before Rogue?
Do you have any idea what it takes to be a farmer and artist? Not everyone
can be one. It takes years to be either and you have to learn a lot, you
have to understand a lot. Piotr won't ever be a computer genius, but
neither will Kitty ever be a good farmer or artist.
This constant comparing of Kitty and Piotr, with Piotr being painted as a
village idiot has got to stop. Piotr isn't stupid, he merely thinks in
ways different than Kitty. Their brains are wired differently. Indeed, the
fact that they are different might be one of the reasons why they might
have a relationship again. They could teach each other a lot, ignoring the
badly written parts of Colossus.
> Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
> backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
> mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
> Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
>
> It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
> a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the past,
> and is someone she's matured past.
Understandable.
> I don't blame Alara for "getting emotional."
I don't "blame" her either. I just see it in a different light.
> However -- I *am* curious as to why people insist that Kitty/Peter *belong*
> together.
*I* don't think they belong together.
> I was horrified to see the vote on www.x-men.com so in favor of a Kitty/Peter
> romance.
Same here.
> Is it just that "they are married and together in Days of Future Past"?
Possibly. It might sound romantic to some.
> It's not like that had to be their first marriage.
>
> I mean, Claremont wrote DoFP, but he also wrote Piotr's fling with Nereel
> (even if he didn't write the fling with Zsaji).
>
> I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on this one -- I know why people
> don't like Wisdom. I want to know why people like Colossus so much.
Piotr is more, much more than just an X-man. He's an artist/ a farmer,
with certain amount of sensativity and thought required for those things.
His main problem is that he doesn't know how to talk about his feelings,
which strikes me as quite realistic. There's so much character growth
potential there, something which hasn't been shown in the books. Somebody
needs to take the character under their wing, like Lobdell did with
Iceman.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
<cha...@aempires.com> wrote:
> Indigo wrote:
> >
> > Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
> > backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
> > mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
> > Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
> >
> What Kitty did was not a mistake. NOT telling Peter Wisdom, and still
> being emotionally estranged from him, was the WORST thing Kitty could
> have done. It was tearing them apart, and staying in an unhealthy
> relationship like that is even worse than breaking up. Wisdom
> acknowledged that to Nightmare, it was the only way that Wisdom beat
> him.
Agreed.
> Kitty effectively did to Peter Wisdom what Peter Rasputin did to her:
> she found out she didn't really love him, and basically put an end to
> it. If Kitty got back with Wisdom, true, it would be a step forward...
> depending on how Wisdom developed in the interim. If he's going to hold
> it over her head, or if she never forgives herself for being attracted
> to Rigby, then it was of no use. But if they reconcile and start
> growing together, it's worth it.
Agreed.
> > It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
> > a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in
the past,
> > and is someone she's matured past.
>
> He never abused her physically... although what I saw in Generation Next
> was really disturbing, thank God that was an alternate reality.
What was disturbing about it?
>And,
> until his feelings were mixed up... he never mistreated her any worse
> than any normal guy does in any normal relationship.
this statement I find disturbing. A normal relationship is does not
involve mistreatment on either side.
> As to why people like him so much? Because he has always had a very
> pure heart. He didn't do the things he did with malicious intent. He's
> always been driven to do the right thing... no matter how much it pained
> him. That sort of naive innocence has always been there, though it's
> been severely tainted by others. He joined the Acolytes because he lost
> sight of Xavier's version of the dream. He betrayed Magneto because he
> knew what Mags did (the worldwide EMP pulse) was wrong. A tragic
> character, indeed. The purity of his heart is still there in a high
> degree.
Agreed. Piotr's a "boy scout", which is needed in this world and on the team.
> As to him expecting "his Katya" to be waiting for him... I don't
> necessarily think that he expected Kitty to be there to be his girl...
> but there is a certain feeling of anger that comes when you think of how
> Wisdom had *known* her, and she was so young.
Kitty is older than her chronological age.
>How many guys do you know
> would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel? How many
> brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> sisters/daughters?
I object to the idea that a Wisdom or any man having sex with a woman/girl
spoils here. Except in a good way.
>Peter has always been protective of Kitty. The
> first time Peter took a life in anger was in UXM 211, and it was because
> of Kitty getting hurt. I *will not* forget the look on his face, the
> anger in his heart, as he held a limp Riptide in his hands, and then
> turned to look for Harpoon. It's not an unnatural reaction, although it
> is not necessarily right.
>
> Kitty and Peter don't *belong* together. The strongest point for this
> is that she has matured past him. When Peter gets his act together (in
> about 10 more Marvel years) I'll look a little more favorably at it,
> then.
Agreed.
-Brandon
Chandre Darkstorm
> > Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
> > Then there's the matter of Nereel.
>
> Nereel was before Kitty ever joined the team
I thought Nereel came after. Post- Dark Phoenix... and hence,
post-Kitty's arrival. I thought she was introduced in the Classic X-Men
series, and then developed in X-Men annual 11 or so, when they dealt
with the High Evolutionary, at which point, Nereel had a son named
Peter.
She may have come pre-Dark Phoenix, but all my classics are at my
parents' house in a box. Someone enlighten?
Chandre
Brandon Blatcher
<C34A85BFD6324E09.988279BD...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
rog...@REMOVETHISairmail.net wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:12:04 GMT, ind...@plastic.spork.com (Indigo)
> wrote:
<snip>
> >
> >Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
> >Piotr is definitely not.
>
> Here is my problem - a highly intelligent person cannot fall for a
> dumber person. That intelligent people should be with other
> intelligent people.
Here is my problem - the idead that Piotr is dumb or dumber than Kitty.
He's quite smart, merely in a different way. I see Piotr as more of a
thinker who turns ideas over his head a lot and expresses them through
painting. Kitty just has brute strentgh intelligence.
>How many people on Kitty's level do you know and
> out of those who married/dating someone that is one or near that
> level. Sorry but that statement kinda bothered me.
I think you're seeing things in a narrow light. I suspect Piotr has no
interest in spending hours with source code (but he can use computers just
fine), while to Kitty that sounds like a date.
> >Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
> >Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
> >Then there's the matter of Nereel.
>
> Um wasn't Nereel before Kitty - or I are trying to say that Peter was
> la "bimbo"
"Bimbo"? What do you mean?
<snip>
>
> >It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
>
> But as you said Peter is not emotionally balanced - he is was probably
> more on the level of a 15 year-old in the Secret Wars time - and I
> think that the Wisdom beating was kinda out-of-character - then again
> I think the whole Ellis run of Excalibur sucked and which it never
> took place.
Agreed.
<snip>
> >
> >However -- I *am* curious as to why people insist that Kitty/Peter *belong*
> >together.
>
> I think they are interesting together - but I think Kitty should move
> on.
Kitty HAS moved on! It's the damn writers who keep Piotr pining after her
to an insane degree.
<snip>
> >I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on this one -- I know why people
> >don't like Wisdom. I want to know why people like Colossus so much.
>
> Because to me Peter seemed like a real person - with emotional
> problems yes - but real
I think he his problem is his inability to articulate his feelings.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
McEwen) wrote:
> On 8 Aug 1998 00:26:46 GMT, v_j...@alcor.concordia.ca ( VLADIMIR
> JOSEPH ) wrote:
>
> >People who date 2 people at the same time, go out with 6 women in one
> >month etc.
>
> Um, Peter didn't do that. He had a little fling with Zsaji on the
> Beyonder's world, and broke up with Kitty as soon as he got the
> chance.
>
> >THe fact is ... ..KITTY CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF BAD BOYS.
>
> That's hardly what I'd call Peter.
>
> >Just be artistic and have an attitude and she's all yours.
>
> Callisto (a younger version) is better for Peter. Those two were an
> excellent match when he was Peter Nicholas and she was a super model.
I prefer the older version of Cal and Piotr. It would still make an
excellent match.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
> feelings for each other - I hope he explores this relationship while
continuing
> Kitty's transition from plucky teenage to mature woman that Claremont, Davis
> and Ellis were all making.
Actually, Kelly's just shown Cal to have those feelings still. It's still
being hinted that Piotr has feelings for Kitty in UXM#360. Major mistake.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
(Indigo) wrote:
> In article <35cb6222...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> fe...@lsh.org (Dan McEwen) wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:08:43 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
> >
> > >Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of Kitty
> > >and Peter getting together?
> > >
> > >Kitty, of course, is not me. But Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13, for
> > >a *dead* woman *he didn't know.* Was he being faithful to the memory of
> > >Zsaji? Zsaji, recall, was making out with Johnny Storm. Was he being fair
> > >to Kitty? He broke her heart over *nothing*. She was emotionally insecure
> > >and felt that guys wouldn't like her because she wasn't sexy like
> > >Illyana, and Peter just assured her that this was in fact true by dumping
> > >her for a beautiful dead chick.
> >
> > Alara, I feel pretty much the same way. I always felt that Kitty and
> > Peter were done *forever* when he dumped her for Zsaji. Kitty went
> > through a lot of pain and grief over his decision. He didn't even
> > offer her the opportunity to try to make things work out with Kitty.
> > I hate the idea of those two ever being together again.
> >
> >Amen Brother!
>
> Peter was, with Zsaji and Nereel, the proverbial kid let loose in the candy
> store, who went nuts and then remembered he had something great waiting for
> him at home...or would have, if he hadn't gone nuts in the candy store.
That fact that he went with Zsaji proves he didnt' think Kitty was
something great, which she isn't, at least for him.
> Kitty deserves better.
As does Piotr.
> Here's hoping Alara's right and that the Kitty/Piotr romance dies a fast,
> ignoble death and that Piotr leaves the team to go shack up with Nereel and
> his son in the Savage Land (if it hasn't flooded).
I prefer Callisto. Piotr doesn't have much feelings for Nereel.
-Brandon
Chandre Darkstorm
>
> > > It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
> > > a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in
> the past,
> > > and is someone she's matured past.
> >
> > He never abused her physically... although what I saw in Generation Next
> > was really disturbing, thank God that was an alternate reality.
>
> What was disturbing about it?
Oh, she just solidified and he beat her to death in his fit of rage over
something he couldn't control.
>
> >And,
> > until his feelings were mixed up... he never mistreated her any worse
> > than any normal guy does in any normal relationship.
>
> this statement I find disturbing. A normal relationship is does not
> involve mistreatment on either side.
What I meant was, no one treats their partner perfectly. By no means do
I mean that abusiveness is a norm. Some people are cold to their
partners, some people are just insensitive. People stay in these
relationships for as long as they can tolerate it. For most people,
that is a fairly short time.
>
> > As to him expecting "his Katya" to be waiting for him... I don't
> > necessarily think that he expected Kitty to be there to be his girl...
> > but there is a certain feeling of anger that comes when you think of how
> > Wisdom had *known* her, and she was so young.
>
> Kitty is older than her chronological age.
>
Ever since we've known her, she's been more mature than her peers. But
Peter didn't have sex with her.
> >How many guys do you know
> > would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel? How many
> > brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> > sisters/daughters?
>
> I object to the idea that a Wisdom or any man having sex with a woman/girl
> spoils here. Except in a good way.
Yeah, and my dad would love to kill the first guy I slept with. If he
ever knew about it. That's only a natural reaction.
Chandre.
Brandon Blatcher
(Indigo) wrote:
> In article <35CB70D8...@hotmail.com>,
> Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Menshevik wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > >Aleph Press wrote:
> >
> > > >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
> >
> > > >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
> >
> > > Actually she was 14. You can read the story in UXM #184.
> >
> > Let's see...13 < 14 < 18...
> >
> > Methinks you are missing the point here...
> >
> > Jim Smith
> >
> I'm not.
>
> Piotr dumped her once and broke her heart at a very important, vulnerable time
> in her life.
Welcom to the club Kitty
> He then went nuts at Illyana's funeral.
Outta character. But then so was Illyana's funeral.
> He then went to hang with Magneto on Avalone.
Outta character.
> He then came back to earth, looking for "his katya" to still be _waiting_ for
> him all this time.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY Outta character.
> He then found her with someone else, went completely berserk, and nearly beat
> said someone else to death *with his steel fists*.
Outta character.
> Piotr is mentally unstable and dangerous. He has a skewed grasp of reality,
> and that's aside from having little intellectually in common with Kitty.
'Cause he's been written outta character.
>He
> admits he's not as smart as she is.
Mistake. He's smarter than her in several ways.
> That's a problem right there. Some men
> (as Indigo carefully tiptoes through the minefield of "sweeping
> generalizations") are not so self-confident that they're not intimidated by a
> woman quite obviously smarter.
Some men can't recognize the idea that they're smart in different ways
> We're just lucky Kitty can phase. It will come in handy when Piotr loses it
> again.
Not if he's written in character.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
> AGr3691541 (agr36...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
> : Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
> : Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
> : knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him.
Ideally
> : he'd have said from the off he didn't love her, but it took someone else to
> : prove it.
>
> Well, yes. They were both young naive gits. I blame Peter more than Kitty
> because, well, he's older. He *shouldn't* have gotten involved with such
> a young girl, and when he broke up with her, he should have made it clear
> it was because he'd realized that what he'd been feeling all along hadn't
> been love, not because he'd fallen in love with someone else, who was
> conveniently dead. Zsaji was an excuse.
I disagree. From UXM#183, page 2:
Kitty: Was she pretty?
Piotr: As beautiful as the dawn...as gentle as a spring rain.
Kitty, (thinking to herself): Poetry. From a man who said he never had the
words to express what was in is heart and soul. I guess he found the words
for her. Never for me.
Peter felt for Zsaji in ways he never could with Kitty. He realized this,
and Kitty realized this too. He most definitely fell in love with Zsaji
and she was far from an excuse.
> : The both suffered from the split - but grew up. Soon after it, neither
really
> : mention it again. The biggest problem is that since the split Kitty
has had a
> : pretty consistent character development while Colossus has been poorly
handled
> : by writers into being an angst-ridden pubescant again.
> : They should not get back together.
>
> Peter, definitely, needs some writing assistance, desperately.
On this we are in major agreement.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
> Indigo (ind...@plastic.spork.com) wrote:
> : Piotr dumped her once and broke her heart at a very important,
vulnerable time
> : in her life.
>
> : He then went nuts at Illyana's funeral.
>
> : He then went to hang with Magneto on Avalone.
>
> Magneto groupie that I am, I'd just like to add here "and then he
> immediately betrayed Magneto by shutting down Avalon's defenses so the
> X-Men could ge aboard."
>
> : He then came back to earth, looking for "his katya" to still be
_waiting_ for
> : him all this time.
>
> : He then found her with someone else, went completely berserk, and
nearly beat
> : said someone else to death *with his steel fists*.
>
> : Piotr is mentally unstable and dangerous. He has a skewed grasp of reality,
> : and that's aside from having little intellectually in common with Kitty. He
> : admits he's not as smart as she is. That's a problem right there. Some men
> : (as Indigo carefully tiptoes through the minefield of "sweeping
> : generalizations") are not so self-confident that they're not
intimidated by a
> : woman quite obviously smarter.
>
> This would not be a problem were it not for the fact that we've *seen*
> Peter being jealous of Kitty's smart male friends, such as Doug Ramsey.
>
> Kitty was also smarter than Pete Wisdom, but *he* didn't care.
>
> : We're just lucky Kitty can phase. It will come in handy when Piotr loses it
> : again.
>
> Unless a miracle occurs and someone hels the poor kid get his head on
> straight. I still think he needs to leave the X-life, take an extended
> sabbatical, rediscover his art, fall in love with someone new (or go
> back to Nereel), fall into Limbo and rescue his little
> sister who's on her way back from wherever she's been all this time...
> uh, okay, I guess that last doesn't *have* to happen, but it would go a
> long way toward making a Colossus story *I'd* want to read. :-)
Change Nereel to Callisto and you've got yourself a deal. Piotr needs family.
-Brandon
Brandon Blatcher
<cha...@aempires.com> wrote:
> Brandon Blatcher wrote:
>
> >
> > > > It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as
going back to
> > > > a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in
> > the past,
> > > > and is someone she's matured past.
> > >
> > > He never abused her physically... although what I saw in Generation Next
> > > was really disturbing, thank God that was an alternate reality.
> >
> > What was disturbing about it?
>
> Oh, she just solidified and he beat her to death in his fit of rage over
> something he couldn't control.
Oops! Forgot about that one. I liked Generation Next, at first, for its
development of Peter, but what it lead to...I hate it, with a passion.
> > >And,
> > > until his feelings were mixed up... he never mistreated her any worse
> > > than any normal guy does in any normal relationship.
> >
> > this statement I find disturbing. A normal relationship is does not
> > involve mistreatment on either side.
>
> What I meant was, no one treats their partner perfectly.
Yes and no. Story book perfect, no. But perfect in the sense that, my god,
this is exacty the way I want to be treated, yes.
By no means do
> I mean that abusiveness is a norm. Some people are cold to their
> partners, some people are just insensitive. People stay in these
> relationships for as long as they can tolerate it. For most people,
> that is a fairly short time.
> >
> > > As to him expecting "his Katya" to be waiting for him... I don't
> > > necessarily think that he expected Kitty to be there to be his girl...
> > > but there is a certain feeling of anger that comes when you think of how
> > > Wisdom had *known* her, and she was so young.
> >
> > Kitty is older than her chronological age.
> >
> Ever since we've known her, she's been more mature than her peers. But
> Peter didn't have sex with her.
>
> > >How many guys do you know
> > > would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel? How many
> > > brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> > > sisters/daughters?
> >
> > I object to the idea that a Wisdom or any man having sex with a woman/girl
> > spoils here. Except in a good way.
>
> Yeah, and my dad would love to kill the first guy I slept with. If he
> ever knew about it. That's only a natural reaction.
I disagree, firmly. A Dad wanting to kill the first guy his daughter slept
with is insane to me.
-Brandon
Chandre Darkstorm
> I disagree, firmly. A Dad wanting to kill the first guy his daughter slept
> with is insane to me.
>
Not in the more religious parts of America. Wanting to do it and
actually doing it, now, those are two different things. But this is
more psychology than I feel we should get into.
Chandre.
Aleph Press
: Not if he's written in character.
That's the crux of it, isn't it?
Peter Rasputin hasn't been written in character-- which is to say, the
character he had from his introduction through the Peter Nicholas
period-- in a very, very long time. But, as I do with Magneto (who hasn't
been seen in character since XMU #2) or Rogue fans do with Rogue (who
hasn't been seen in character since XM #3), the true Colossus fans
perceive everything he's done to be an out-of-chjaracter aberration.
This isn't a mistake, exactly, but it's too much to hope that it will all
be retconned. You need to have an explanation *within* the story as well
as without. For instance, my outside-the-story explanation of Fatal
Attractions' Magneto-abuse is bad writing. My inside-the-story
explanation is that he was insane. And Magneto can never be written well,
as the character I want him to be and the character I think he *is*,
without addressing that insanity.
The same goes for Colossus. Sure, it was out of character-- but it
happened. So, why did it happen? What could be done to prevent it from
happening again? Peter is, currently, an emotionally damaged and probably
unstable young man. He should *not* be with Kitty. Too much old baggage
(and I can't help but think-- why the hell would she want him, at this
point? It's pretty clear she cared a lot for him but that it was a crush,
not True Love, and they have absolutely nothing in common-- you need to
have *some* commonality for Opposites Attract to work.) He was only
interested in Callisto when she was pretty, so I don't know if he would
go back to her. He probably no longer cares about Nereel.
I think he needs someone warm, loving and gentle, wtih about as much book
smarts as he has, who is very sensitive and pays a great deal of
attention to emotion-- not Kitty, who, like many technogeeks, is not all
that adept with emotional issues. He should leave the X-books for a while
tog et his head on straight. Maybe he should rescue Callisto. Maybe he
should rescue Illyana. He ought to rescue *somebody* to validate his
sense of self-worth *without* a team. Maybe he should go into therapy.
Something. But just treating him as business as usual is a bad idea.
Based on the way he's written, he's mentally ill and needs help, not to
continue to be a member of a superhero team.
Aleph Press
: Here is my problem - a highly intelligent person cannot fall for a
: dumber person. That intelligent people should be with other
: intelligent people. How many people on Kitty's level do you know and
: out of those who married/dating someone that is one or near that
: level. Sorry but that statement kinda bothered me.
Sadly, this isn't true, but it usually goes sex-opposite. That is, men
hook up with women who are stupider than them all the time. Often, this
is not because the person is warm and loving and truly has qualities they
love, but because they want someone inferior to them to reflect their
glory. Kitty would not be interested in a less intelligent man for *that*
reason, and while almost any man in the Marvel Universe is less
intelligent than her, Peter was profoundly insecure about her
intelligence. He didn't celebrate it-- he feared it.
: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
than her once, and Pete Wisdom, who was so much older and still is more
worldly-- while at the same time having some interest in men who are her
equals, such as Doug and Rigby.
Aleph Press
: Piotr is more, much more than just an X-man. He's an artist/ a farmer,
: with certain amount of sensativity and thought required for those things.
: His main problem is that he doesn't know how to talk about his feelings,
: which strikes me as quite realistic. There's so much character growth
: potential there, something which hasn't been shown in the books. Somebody
: needs to take the character under their wing, like Lobdell did with
: Iceman.
I'd like peter as a character a lot more if someone would do this with him.
AGr3691541
<cha...@aempires.com> writes:
>> > Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
>> > Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
>> > Then there's the matter of Nereel.
>>
>> Nereel was before Kitty ever joined the team
>
>I thought Nereel came after. Post- Dark Phoenix... and hence,
>post-Kitty's arrival. I thought she was introduced in the Classic X-Men
>series, and then developed in X-Men annual 11 or so, when they dealt
>with the High Evolutionary, at which point, Nereel had a son named
>Peter.
>
>She may have come pre-Dark Phoenix, but all my classics are at my
>parents' house in a box. Someone enlighten?
>
I *think* they met before Dark Phoenix when the new X-men first adventured in
the Savage Land. It wasn't really shown in the comics but the Classic add-on
was meant to be occuring at the same time. So technically she's pre-Kitty, and
does put his decision not to have sex with Kitty in a slightly different light.
Conversely, why does she not tell Piotr the child in Annual 11 is his? I think,
because she didn't love Colossus but knew if he knew he'd insist on staying and
looking after the kid as a Savage Land farmer - and she *just* didn't want him
in her life.
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
nom...@mindspring.com (Brandon Blatcher) writes:
>> But aside from that:
>>
>> Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
>> Piotr is definitely not.
>
>I disagree.
Me too - Colossus is a brilliant artist, Kitty is a computer geek.
>
>> Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
>> Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
>> Then there's the matter of Nereel.
>
>Nereel was before Kitty ever joined the team
Plus since Kitty and Colossus weren't a serious relationship, it's hard to see
Colossus as being unfaithful - more failing to live up ro Kitty's unrealistic
adolescant idea of a tall 'prince' who'd be her perfect future husband.
Betraying this is not the same as being unfaithful.
Nereel doesn't come into it
>> Wisdom can think for himself.
>> Piotr is a lost little lamb without someone giving him orders and telling
>him
>> what to do.
>
>Yes and no. He seems that way, but how do you explain his defense of the
>Acolyte on Asteriod M. I think Piotr he needs to take more control of his
>life and get away from the x-Men, but I don't think he's a little lost
>lamb. Rather he's found a cause that seemingly appeals to his pure sense
>of heart.
The Colossus right up to the Muir Island Saga isn't like that at all - it took
all of Marvel's early 90's ineptitude to wipe the character to a 2D slate of
'little lost lamb' status.
>> Wisdom drinks and/or smokes when he's upset. Colossus rips tree trunks out
>of
>> the ground, or does violence to whatever's handy (including Wisdom -- and
>> Colossus didn't even make it a fair fight. He was STEEL when he beat
>Wisdom.)
>
>Yes, drinking and smoking is SOOOOOO much better.
Plus Wisdom has been revealed to be a mass murderer.
Heck I like Wisdom, I thought he and Kitty were great together, and the sex
angle was a realistic development - but it worked becasue Kitty had been
consistently developed as a character. Colossus had no such luck.
>Piotr paints or draws when written well.
>> Wisdom is more than the hot knives he wields. Admittedly he isn't the space
>> age whiz kid Kat is, but he does have the whole Black Air background. Piotr
>> is redundant since Rogue's long been the team muscle; furthermore, he's
>been
>> a farmer and after the Siege, briefly, an artist. Little else.
>
>Or is it Rogue who is redundant since Peter was the muscle long before Rogue?
>
>Do you have any idea what it takes to be a farmer and artist? Not everyone
>can be one. It takes years to be either and you have to learn a lot, you
>have to understand a lot. Piotr won't ever be a computer genius, but
>neither will Kitty ever be a good farmer or artist.
>
>This constant comparing of Kitty and Piotr, with Piotr being painted as a
>village idiot has got to stop. Piotr isn't stupid, he merely thinks in
>ways different than Kitty. Their brains are wired differently. Indeed, the
>fact that they are different might be one of the reasons why they might
>have a relationship again. They could teach each other a lot, ignoring the
>badly written parts of Colossus.
>
>> Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
>> backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
>> mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
>> Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
>>
>> It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back
>to
>> a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the
>past,
>> and is someone she's matured past.
>
>Understandable.
Only because Lobdell and co had no idea how to mature Colossus.
>> I don't blame Alara for "getting emotional."
>
>I don't "blame" her either. I just see it in a different light.
>
>> However -- I *am* curious as to why people insist that Kitty/Peter *belong*
>> together.
>
>*I* don't think they belong together.
They don't. If they get back together expect me to scream in CAPITAL LETTERS at
this newsgroup - but that doesn't mean I will belittle the period they had
together - or blame Colossus as being responsible for the relationship's
failure.
>> I was horrified to see the vote on www.x-men.com so in favor of a
>Kitty/Peter
>> romance.
>
>Same here.
I demand a recount!
>
>> Is it just that "they are married and together in Days of Future Past"?
>
>Possibly. It might sound romantic to some.
>
>> It's not like that had to be their first marriage.
>>
>> I mean, Claremont wrote DoFP, but he also wrote Piotr's fling with Nereel
>> (even if he didn't write the fling with Zsaji).
>>
>> I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on this one -- I know why
>people
>> don't like Wisdom. I want to know why people like Colossus so much.
>
>Piotr is more, much more than just an X-man. He's an artist/ a farmer,
>with certain amount of sensativity and thought required for those things.
>His main problem is that he doesn't know how to talk about his feelings,
>which strikes me as quite realistic. There's so much character growth
>potential there, something which hasn't been shown in the books. Somebody
>needs to take the character under their wing, like Lobdell did with
>Iceman.
>
I like the idea of DoFP not being a first marriage. If Kitty met a real shit
she might just fall back to Colossus on the rebound - reliable, dependable and
all that. But I don't buy the idea they are meant for each other - or even that
what they felt was truly love and not a crush.
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
nom...@mindspring.com (Brandon Blatcher) writes:
Kitty and Piotr will always have feelings for each other - I just don't think
they're going to get back together.
I they do, yep it's a major mistake.
Lazy Line Straw-Clutching Al
JMcgin1007
>Sure, Kitty ran off to Japan and became a ninja, but
>Kitty also agreed to marry Caliban so Peter wouldn't die. This was
>not very long after the breakup.
Kitty nearly marrying Caliban took place before her breakup with Peter and
before she became Shadowcat.
AGr3691541
<cha...@aempires.com> writes:
>> I disagree, firmly. A Dad wanting to kill the first guy his daughter slept
>> with is insane to me.
>>
>Not in the more religious parts of America.
But in those same areas, woulddn't that then mean the father comitting suicide
:)
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
that's really really unfair.
> so I don't know if he would
>go back to her. He probably no longer cares about Nereel.
>I think he needs someone warm, loving and gentle, wtih about as much book
>smarts as he has, who is very sensitive and pays a great deal of
>attention to emotion-- not Kitty, who, like many technogeeks, is not all
>that adept with emotional issues. He should leave the X-books for a while
>tog et his head on straight. Maybe he should rescue Callisto. Maybe he
>should rescue Illyana. He ought to rescue *somebody* to validate his
>sense of self-worth *without* a team. Maybe he should go into therapy.
>Something. But just treating him as business as usual is a bad idea.
>Based on the way he's written, he's mentally ill and needs help, not to
>continue to be a member of a superhero team.
I agree but then this is Marvel, people are psycho loons one issue and heroes
the next. Jean Grey technically has all the memories of the Phoenix - she
remembers committing genocide on 5 billion people. I don't think anyone could
handle that knowledge - but Marvel allow her to continue with a semi-normal
life.
Colossus seems to have already *got over* his madness in Excalibur by their
issues of Onslaught. I reckon it's better that Marvel treat him as healed then
try and do a serious study of his madness - mostly because the storyline
portraying his madness was executed with little thought or care for the
character.
There's an emerging story line about the danger Callisto is currently in - I
reckon that's the perfect time to bring her and Piotr together though.
Lazy Line Painter Al
Dan McEwen
>In article <35cc443c...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, fe...@lsh.org (Dan
>McEwen) writes:
>
>>On 08 Aug 1998 11:41:20 GMT, agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
>>>Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both sides,
>>>Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
>>>knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him.
>>
>>Who says her crush wasn't true love? I'm not sure why people that
>>that teenagers are incapable of having the same feelings as adults.
>
>Well I used the crush to specifically relate to instances where it isn't true
>love.
>And in this case, it wasn't.
Says who? I never read anything to suggest that, at least at one
point, they didn't love each other. I know for sure Kitty loved him.
>That's true, but Kitty's actions would have been the same for most of the X-me,
>but I was thinking of over a year later - Colossus and Kitty were both on the
>team but obviously not pining for each other - indeed Colossus went on to have
>a relationship with Callisto and Kitty fancied Alistair Stewart and (Goddamn
>you ice-weasel haters!) have a relationship with Pete Wisdom without either
>moaning on about Colossus.
Colossus had a relationship with Calisto *after* he went through the
Siege Perilous and came out an amnesiac artist named Peter Nicholas.
He's hardly likely to pine over someone he doesn't even remember. As
for Kitty, as far as she knew, Colossus was dead. To her, he died in
Dallas, sacrificing his life to defeat the Adversary.
Besides, I wasn't advocating that they *never* got over one another.
That would just be plain unrealistic. But this stuff all happened a
few years after their breakup!
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Home Page - http://home.att.net/~djmcewen
Fanfic - http://home.att.net/~djmcewen/Integrated.html
Dan McEwen
Blatcher) wrote:
>> Exactly, Kelly's already acknowledged that Callisto and Colossus have strong
>> feelings for each other - I hope he explores this relationship while
>continuing
>> Kitty's transition from plucky teenage to mature woman that Claremont, Davis
>> and Ellis were all making.
>
>Actually, Kelly's just shown Cal to have those feelings still. It's still
>being hinted that Piotr has feelings for Kitty in UXM#360. Major mistake.
Well, it's consistent for Colossus. Just as long as Kitty doesn't
reciprocate the feelings, it should be OK.
AGr3691541
McEwen) writes:
>On 08 Aug 1998 13:02:23 GMT, agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
>
>>In article <35cc443c...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, fe...@lsh.org (Dan
>>McEwen) writes:
>>
>>>On 08 Aug 1998 11:41:20 GMT, agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I agree they shouldn't get back together, but why does everyone pick on
>>>>Colossus about the whole thing? The relationship was naivete on both
>sides,
>>>>Kitty thinking her *crush* was true love and a just-as-naive Colossus not
>>>>knowing how to deal with the strength of Kitty's feeling towards him.
>>>
>>>Who says her crush wasn't true love? I'm not sure why people that
>>>that teenagers are incapable of having the same feelings as adults.
>>
>>Well I used the crush to specifically relate to instances where it isn't
>true
>>love.
>>And in this case, it wasn't.
>
>Says who? I never read anything to suggest that, at least at one
>point, they didn't love each other. I know for sure Kitty loved him.
Maybe she loved him - but the expectations on that love was fuelled by her own
naivete and adolscant desire to find a handsome pure hearted husband for life -
and that's what makes it a crush. She couldn't love someone the same way now,
even if she wanted too.
>>That's true, but Kitty's actions would have been the same for most of the
>X-me,
>>but I was thinking of over a year later - Colossus and Kitty were both on
>the
>>team but obviously not pining for each other - indeed Colossus went on to
>have
>>a relationship with Callisto and Kitty fancied Alistair Stewart and (Goddamn
>>you ice-weasel haters!) have a relationship with Pete Wisdom without either
>>moaning on about Colossus.
>
>Colossus had a relationship with Calisto *after* he went through the
>Siege Perilous and came out an amnesiac artist named Peter Nicholas.
>He's hardly likely to pine over someone he doesn't even remember. As
>for Kitty, as far as she knew, Colossus was dead. To her, he died in
>Dallas, sacrificing his life to defeat the Adversary.
>
>Besides, I wasn't advocating that they *never* got over one another.
>That would just be plain unrealistic. But this stuff all happened a
>few years after their breakup!
But going back to the title - Kitty and Colossus split in issue 180-something.
Their relationship is not in any way an issue by UXM200 - they're both over it,
already.
Lazy Line Painter Al
Menshevik
>Piotr could go anywhere he feels like. He had an art career in New York
>and he probably has some money stashed away somewhere. Hell, he's an
>artist, there are a number of places he might want to go, just to
>paint'em.
Don't know about the money. But one thing always bothered me:
How come that artists whose actual work as shown in the comics
always looks rather pedestrian, or perhaps one should rather say,
like the drawings of a comicbook artist, gets feted in artsy circles
in Earth-616's New York? I mean, this goes both for Alicia Masters'
sculptures and for Piotr Rasputin/Peter Nicholas's paintings.
Neither would really be considered avantgarde, so how come
Peter Nicholas became so sucessful in so short a time?
Just a thought.
Tilman
"But ah know in my heart, no matter how much good ah do, I'll never
make up for what ah did. Those scales nothin'll ever balance."
Rogue (Uncanny X-Men #203)
Indigo
Chandre Darkstorm <cha...@aempires.com> wrote:
> Indigo wrote:
> >
> > Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
> > backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
> > mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
> > Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
> >
Kitty thinks it was because she loves Wisdom and isn't with him anymore.
Excalibur #124.
NOT telling Peter Wisdom,
Which she didn't for a couple issues after the abyssmal limited series...
and still
> being emotionally estranged from him, was the WORST thing Kitty could
> have done. It was tearing them apart, and staying in an unhealthy
> relationship like that is even worse than breaking up. Wisdom
> acknowledged that to Nightmare, it was the only way that Wisdom beat
> him.
>
> Kitty effectively did to Peter Wisdom what Peter Rasputin did to her:
> she found out she didn't really love him, and basically put an end to
> it.
She acknowledges she *does* love him, and that her sudden cold feet was a
mistake. Same Excalibur issue as referenced above.
If Kitty got back with Wisdom, true, it would be a step forward...
> depending on how Wisdom developed in the interim. If he's going to hold
> it over her head, or if she never forgives herself for being attracted
> to Rigby, then it was of no use. But if they reconcile and start
> growing together, it's worth it.
Agreed.
>
> > It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
> > a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the
past,
> > and is someone she's matured past.
>
> He never abused her physically...
so it's okay if he beats up others as long as he doesn't hit her? That's the
kind of thinking that gets battered families no help.
although what I saw in Generation Next
> was really disturbing, thank God that was an alternate reality. And,
> until his feelings were mixed up... he never mistreated her any worse
> than any normal guy does in any normal relationship.
>
> As to why people like him so much? Because he has always had a very
> pure heart.
Pure to the point of following who seemed to be the most authoritative at the
time.
He didn't do the things he did with malicious intent. He's
> always been driven to do the right thing... no matter how much it pained
> him. That sort of naive innocence has always been there, though it's
> been severely tainted by others.
After all he's been through, he should not still be naive. He's dealt with the
brood, the marauders, the hellfire club, and Magneto's acolytes. If he's
still clueless after all this time, he's a lost cause, IMO.
That's not innocence. It's blind idealism to the exclusion of all else -- or
perhaps willful refusal to deal with the reality he lives in.
He joined the Acolytes because he lost
> sight of Xavier's version of the dream. He betrayed Magneto because he
> knew what Mags did (the worldwide EMP pulse) was wrong. A tragic
> character, indeed. The purity of his heart is still there in a high
> degree.
>
> As to him expecting "his Katya" to be waiting for him... I don't
> necessarily think that he expected Kitty to be there to be his girl...
> but there is a certain feeling of anger that comes when you think of how
> Wisdom had *known* her, and she was so young.
It was her choice, and not his place to decide that Wisdom had *made* her do
anything. For crying out loud, Moira Mactaggart would've personally kicked
Wisdom into the sea *herself* if he'd done anything Kitty didn't wish done.
But because Piotr's heart is pure and he was angry it was okay? I think not.
How many guys do you know
> would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel?
Absolutely none. They'd all give the girl credit for having a mind and *ask*
her first before they started swinging.
How many
> brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> sisters/daughters?
If the sisters/daughters chose to be with that man of their own volition,
uncocerced, then it's not "spoiled."
and the fathers/brothers have no right to do anything lest they violate the
wishes of the woman in question.
Peter has always been protective of Kitty. The
> first time Peter took a life in anger was in UXM 211, and it was because
> of Kitty getting hurt. I *will not* forget the look on his face, the
> anger in his heart, as he held a limp Riptide in his hands, and then
> turned to look for Harpoon. It's not an unnatural reaction, although it
> is not necessarily right.
That was different. The Marauders were murderers several-times-over, and had
nearly killed Kitty.
There's a difference between "You murdering monster who's killed lots of
people and also nearly killed Kitty" and "You disgusting svengali who
seduced Kitty (against her will)."
>
> Kitty and Peter don't *belong* together. The strongest point for this
> is that she has matured past him. When Peter gets his act together (in
> about 10 more Marvel years) I'll look a little more favorably at it,
> then.
>
Absolutely, she's matured past him.
I agree with Brandon. He and Callisto would make a *very* good pair even
though she's not beautiful. And the indications were in recent issues,
before she was hurt, that there were still feelings there.
Indigo
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Indigo
<C34A85BFD6324E09.988279BD...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, rog...@REMOVETHISairmail.net wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:12:04 GMT, ind...@plastic.spork.com (Indigo)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <6qg606$e4l$1...@newsflash.concordia.ca>,
> > v_j...@alcor.concordia.ca ( VLADIMIR JOSEPH ) wrote:
> >> [Super Snip]
> >>
> [snip]
> >Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
> >Piotr is definitely not.
>
> Here is my problem - a highly intelligent person cannot fall for a
> dumber person.
Sure they can. Love is, as they say, blind. But it is a much bigger obstacle
because intellect-in-common is usually one of the first-biggest attraction
factors. Kitty and Piotr don't have that meeting of the minds now to attract
them; when they were kids, it was just "oh, he's such a hunk!"
That intelligent people should be with other
> intelligent people. How many people on Kitty's level do you know and
> out of those who married/dating someone that is one or near that
> level. Sorry but that statement kinda bothered me.
>
I was engaged to someone who told *me* I was smarter than he'd ever be.
> >Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
> >Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
> >Then there's the matter of Nereel.
>
> Um wasn't Nereel before Kitty - or I are trying to say that Peter was
> la "bimbo"
The word you're looking for is "himbo" :)
>
> >Wisdom can think for himself.
> >Piotr is a lost little lamb without someone giving him orders and telling him
> >what to do.
> >
> >Wisdom drinks and/or smokes when he's upset. Colossus rips tree trunks out of
> >the ground, or does violence to whatever's handy (including Wisdom -- and
> >Colossus didn't even make it a fair fight. He was STEEL when he beat Wisdom.)
> >
> >Wisdom is more than the hot knives he wields. Admittedly he isn't the space
> >age whiz kid Kat is, but he does have the whole Black Air background. Piotr
> >is redundant since Rogue's long been the team muscle; furthermore, he's been
> >a farmer and after the Siege, briefly, an artist. Little else.
> >
> >Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
>
> I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
> does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
> wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
> her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
>
Wisdom is closer to her intellectually than Rasputin is, IMO.
> >It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
>
> But as you said Peter is not emotionally balanced - he is was probably
> more on the level of a 15 year-old in the Secret Wars time - and I
> think that the Wisdom beating was kinda out-of-character - then again
> I think the whole Ellis run of Excalibur sucked and which it never
> took place.
Yes, but I think it was interesting and intense and that it counts -- as do
many others. We'll agree to disagree.
>
> >a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the past,
> >and is someone she's matured past.
>
> Who wrote the Secret Wars? Was the breakup that Claremont wrote
> because someone else had written a story that he felt he couldn't get
> around. And I think that Kitty was mature enough that later on she
> would of forgiven Peter - he really isn't that emotionally stable.
> Then the DOFP could of happen. Other writers messed Peter up more -
> explain to me how Ellis could write Peter trying to kill Pete and
> almost suceeding but than in the Days Of Futures Yet To Come ( It
> think that was the name of it) EVEN Ellis had Kitty and Peter getting
> married. So it seems that if anything happeds - its because someone
> (editor or something) thinks they are supposed to be a couple
>
Probably an editor, walking in Claremont's trailblaze.
> >I don't blame Alara for "getting emotional."
> >
> >However -- I *am* curious as to why people insist that Kitty/Peter *belong*
> >together.
>
> I think they are interesting together - but I think Kitty should move
> on.
Agreed; but I don't even think they're interesting together except as friends.
I think that in the alternate worlds it is fine for them to be
> together. I guess it is like all the people that think Jean and Scott
> should be together in every damn universe - and if they aren't then
> better make sure they hook up - because everyone knows they can't
> function without the other. (The What If issue that shows what
> happened if Jean chose Logan - she blows up the planet because only
> Scott could help her keep back her dark side - stupid story)
Agreed.
>
> >I was horrified to see the vote on www.x-men.com so in favor of a Kitty/Peter
> >romance.
>
> They let you vote more than once - there could of been someone
> stuffing the ballot box.
>
True. I know people who were frantically voting for the opposite, though, but
the vote still remained high in favor of Rasputin/Pryde
> >Is it just that "they are married and together in Days of Future Past"?
> >
> >It's not like that had to be their first marriage.
> >
> >I mean, Claremont wrote DoFP, but he also wrote Piotr's fling with Nereel
> >(even if he didn't write the fling with Zsaji).
> >
> >I'm really curious to hear people's thoughts on this one -- I know why people
> >don't like Wisdom. I want to know why people like Colossus so much.
>
> Because to me Peter seemed like a real person - with emotional
> problems yes - but real
>
> Pete seemed like a 2-dmensional bad boy that was only created because
> Ellis wanted Kitty to be dating a sleeping with someone
I don't think he was two-dimensional, though. He was a dark figure who found
a light in Pryde -- and there was this conflict in him about admitting he
cared for her -- or faking it off.
Chandre Darkstorm
>
> In article <35CCA112...@aempires.com>, Chandre Darkstorm
> <cha...@aempires.com> writes:
>
> >> > Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
> >> > Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
> >> > Then there's the matter of Nereel.
> >>
> >
> >post-Kitty's arrival. I thought she was introduced in the Classic X-Men
> >series, and then developed in X-Men annual 11 or so, when they dealt
> >with the High Evolutionary, at which point, Nereel had a son named
> >Peter.
> >
> >She may have come pre-Dark Phoenix, but all my classics are at my
> >parents' house in a box. Someone enlighten?
> >
>
> I *think* they met before Dark Phoenix when the new X-men first adventured in
> the Savage Land. It wasn't really shown in the comics but the Classic add-on
> was meant to be occuring at the same time. So technically she's pre-Kitty, and
> does put his decision not to have sex with Kitty in a slightly different light.
>
> Conversely, why does she not tell Piotr the child in Annual 11 is his? I think,
> because she didn't love Colossus but knew if he knew he'd insist on staying and
> looking after the kid as a Savage Land farmer - and she *just* didn't want him
> in her life.
>
> Lazy Line Painter Al
Just went to the comics shop today, picked up the controversial UXM 360,
and did a little research on Nereel.
You are correct. Nereel is pre-Dark Phoenix, story shows up in Classic
X-Men 21. As for their relationship... well, it was Nereel and Fahe
that insisted on that night of pleasures. Theirs was a totally
different culture, and when in Rome...
Chandre.
Alleigh
Blatcher) wrote:
>In article
><C34A85BFD6324E09.988279BD...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
>rog...@REMOVETHISairmail.net wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:12:04 GMT, ind...@plastic.spork.com (Indigo)
>> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >
>> >Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
>> >Piotr is definitely not.
>>
>> Here is my problem - a highly intelligent person cannot fall for a
>> dumber person. That intelligent people should be with other
>> intelligent people.
>
>Here is my problem - the idead that Piotr is dumb or dumber than Kitty.
>He's quite smart, merely in a different way. I see Piotr as more of a
>thinker who turns ideas over his head a lot and expresses them through
>painting. Kitty just has brute strentgh intelligence.
>
>>How many people on Kitty's level do you know and
>> out of those who married/dating someone that is one or near that
>> level. Sorry but that statement kinda bothered me.
>
>I think you're seeing things in a narrow light. I suspect Piotr has no
I didn't say he was dumb now did I? I think that Peter is not on
Kitty's level but I don't think he is necessarily stupid
>interest in spending hours with source code (but he can use computers just
>fine), while to Kitty that sounds like a date.
>
>> >Wisdom was faithful while he was with Kat.
>> >Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
>> >Then there's the matter of Nereel.
>>
>> Um wasn't Nereel before Kitty - or I are trying to say that Peter was
>> la "bimbo"
>
>"Bimbo"? What do you mean?
I don't know I was trying to figure out where the other poster was
going.
Alleigh
>: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
>: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
>: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
>: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
>
>I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
>walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
That Doug was a wild one wasn't he. I don't see Kitty that way I think
she likes the more down to Earth ones. Peter, Doug and Rigby vs Wisdom
- Wisdom is the odd-man out
Chandre Darkstorm
>
> In article <35CC7691...@aempires.com>,
> Chandre Darkstorm <cha...@aempires.com> wrote:
> > Indigo wrote:
> > >
> > > Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a step
> > > backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
> > > mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a result.
> > > Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
> > >
> > What Kitty did was not a mistake.
>
> Kitty thinks it was because she loves Wisdom and isn't with him anymore.
> Excalibur #124.
>
the case, she wouldn't be trying to convince Meggan to tell Brian the
truth, and to do it herself, something she has to learn. I am not going
to quote the whole page, go read it again. Feeling what she did for
Rigby was the mistake, and Kitty even admits it in E#124. But not
telling Wisdom? She doesn't sink so low as to say that.
> She acknowledges she *does* love him, and that her sudden cold feet was a
> mistake. Same Excalibur issue as referenced above.
>
> > > It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going back to
> > > a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the
> past,
> > > and is someone she's matured past.
> >
> > He never abused her physically...
>
> so it's okay if he beats up others as long as he doesn't hit her? That's the
> kind of thinking that gets battered families no help.
I have never said that it was right. A part of what I wrote that
conveniently is not printed here is that the reaction is natural, not
necessarily right.
> > As to why people like him so much? Because he has always had a very
> > pure heart.
>
> Pure to the point of following who seemed to be the most authoritative at the
> time.
Spare me. Magneto has always been "authoritative" but it wasn't until
Peter lost sight of the dream that he left. Colossus CAN and DOES think
for himself. He'd questioned the dream.. and he left.
> After all he's been through, he should not still be naive. He's dealt with the
> brood, the marauders, the hellfire club, and Magneto's acolytes. If he's
> still clueless after all this time, he's a lost cause, IMO.
>
> That's not innocence. It's blind idealism to the exclusion of all else -- or
> perhaps willful refusal to deal with the reality he lives in.
>
Getting into killer fights makes you more mature in that you can handle
most of the physical threats that come your way, things you can handle
while in "automatic" mode. Love takes conscious work. Those kinds of
experiences don't do much for the emotional development, specifically
the parts that teach you what a loving relationship is.
And in the mutant world, there are only so many stances to take on how
to approach humans. Being an X-Man, Xavier's way, is one stance. It
didn't fit him. He left. Magneto's was another way. It didn't fit
him. He left. People are allowed to change their minds. Granted, this
was amid some really sucky writing of his character. But alas, what is
in print is what is canon.
> It was her choice, and not his place to decide that Wisdom had *made* her do
> anything. For crying out loud, Moira Mactaggart would've personally kicked
> Wisdom into the sea *herself* if he'd done anything Kitty didn't wish done.
>
> But because Piotr's heart is pure and he was angry it was okay? I think not.
You and I know it was her choice, we all know it was her choice. But do
try to be objective, and think in terms of where Peter has been.
Without knowing Wisdom, having been away from Kitty for so long, do you
really expect him to get the warm fuzzy from Kitty having sex with this
shady guy that is even older than he is? Especiall consider that Peter
had always respected her body.
>
> How many guys do you know
> > would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel?
>
> Absolutely none. They'd all give the girl credit for having a mind and *ask*
> her first before they started swinging.
>
Okay, I know this is the 90s but not everyone thinks this way. There
are plenty of references in American pop culture of the daddy getting
the shotgun to go after the guy that "spoiled" their daughter. It is a
way that people behave. Is it right? Not to you, or to me. But in
certain regions, yes. We do not all think alike, nor share the same
values.
> How many
> > brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> > sisters/daughters?
>
> If the sisters/daughters chose to be with that man of their own volition,
> uncocerced, then it's not "spoiled."
> and the fathers/brothers have no right to do anything lest they violate the
> wishes of the woman in question.
How egalitarian. See above.
>
> Peter has always been protective of Kitty. The
> > first time Peter took a life in anger was in UXM 211, and it was because
> > of Kitty getting hurt. I *will not* forget the look on his face, the
> > anger in his heart, as he held a limp Riptide in his hands, and then
> > turned to look for Harpoon. It's not an unnatural reaction, although it
> > is not necessarily right.
>
> That was different. The Marauders were murderers several-times-over, and had
> nearly killed Kitty.
>
> There's a difference between "You murdering monster who's killed lots of
> people and also nearly killed Kitty" and "You disgusting svengali who
> seduced Kitty (against her will)."
>
Again, not knowing Wisdom (whom Kitty herself didn't even trust at
first) what do we honestly expect him to think?
> I agree with Brandon. He and Callisto would make a *very* good pair even
> though she's not beautiful. And the indications were in recent issues,
> before she was hurt, that there were still feelings there.
I agree that Callisto would seem to be a better choice. Even though
she's supposed to be a hag. I also picked up that the feelings were
still there. Callisto has much that she could teach him, and I think it
would bring significant development of his character. That is, if
everyone will stop writing him like a lap dog. All of his relationships
have been short-lived or not very serious, or both. A long-term intense
relationship, probably with Callisto, would be a great start to
developing his emotional skill.
Chandre.
Danny Miller
> Jim Smith (jimna...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
> : > Yeah, back in the 180's of UXM.
>
> : Sigh.
>
> : OK, since you all seem to just take it for granted, I guess I have to
> : make myself clearer:
>
> : *Why*, in heaven's name, did Colossus date a 13-year-old?
>
> He liked her.
>
> : Last time I checked, this isn't the Legion books, and they can't just
> : make up some "age of consent is lower in the future" trick.
>
> They weren't having sex. This was made quite clear.
And thank God for that, because under early- to mid-eighties statutory rape
laws, Piotr would've been in trouble legally even had *he* been under 18,
too. However, nowadays the average US age of consent is sixteen, and
generally if the guy is four years or fewer older than the girl (or vice
versa, technically, I presume, in some jurisdictions), the crime is less
recognized. Which meant Piotr *still* would've had a problem, admittedly,
but....
> Kitty's mature for her age, and was interested in older guys, and it was
> a sweet, romantic, sipping-the-same-drink-through-two-straws kind of
> relationship. At one point when they thought they were going to die,
> Kitty offered sex, and Peter said it would be a bad idea. So I don't
> think there was anything wrong with it from an age standpoint.
See, now I, personally, never having seen the storyline(s) in the first
place at either Kitty's or Piotr's age, and reading them ex post facto,
thought the relationship seemed just the slightest bit weird, at first
glance. That said, Piotr was *immature* for his age, and just insecure
enough to feel more at ease with younger women; combined with Kitty's
comparative maturity for her age, the relationship (grudgingly, by me)
seems to have worked at the time.
Still, it's just very good that Piotr grew up in a loving family and never
seems to have had the sort of bizarre, sick fantasies Sabretooth apparently
has, or else his "romantic" life might've turned out far, far worse. IMHO.
> I just don't think it works *now.*
Damn straight.
--
I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it. -- Jack Handey
Danny Miller, har de har-har-har
dami...@bu.edu
Danny Miller
McEwen) wrote:
> On 8 Aug 1998 00:26:46 GMT, v_j...@alcor.concordia.ca ( VLADIMIR
> JOSEPH ) wrote:
> >THe fact is ... ..KITTY CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF BAD BOYS.
>
> That's hardly what I'd call Peter.
Ditto. In fact, I'd guess Piotr is very much the opposite of a bad boy.
Hell, even when he became an Acolyte he was still a sort of Petey
Pureheart.
> >Just be artistic and have an attitude and she's all yours.
>
> Callisto (a younger version) is better for Peter. Those two were an
> excellent match when he was Peter Nicholas and she was a super model.
And if you ask me, that was the irony of ironies. When Piotr was a
superhero and Callisto wasn't, Callisto didn't date him; when *she* was a
supermodel (supermodel, superhero...same thing) and he wasn't
super-anything, she would. :D
Danny Miller
McEwen) wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:30:01 -0500, Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Dan McEwen wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:13:55 -0500, Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >OK, since you all seem to just take it for granted, I guess I have to
> >make myself clearer:
> >
> >*Why*, in heaven's name, did Colossus date a 13-year-old?
> >
> >Last time I checked, this isn't the Legion books, and they can't just
> >make up some "age of consent is lower in the future" trick.
>
> Why not? Kitty was unusually mature for her age. If she's old enough to
> go out and risk her life, I think she should be old enough to decide who
> she wants to date. It wasn't legal for them to have sex, but that was
> hardly a major part of their relationship. Or perhaps Peter was less
> mature than we all thought.
That last comment you make is very much part of it, Dan. I have to say
here that I agree just about entirely with Jim. IMHO, it signifies
something a little off-kilter about the guy when he's so immature and feels
so little at ease with women of his own peer group that he feels compelled
to date females younger than he is. What basically redeems Piotr is that
he (1) seems fully cognizant of this, (2) refuses Kitty's sexual overture,
and (3) hasn't had *any* sick, evil fantasies. YMMV.
Chandre Darkstorm
Someone else commented about how, in a group of people, there was an age
range of about 13-22 that all hung out together. Now if the 13 year old
is just as mature as the 19 year old, it is not hard to forget that they
are physically 13. He wasn't "compelled" to date younger women. There
is no evidence of this in any other relationship he has had.
Being in such close quarters, with someone as mature and affectionate as
Kitty, it is not a far jump to have feelings for her. Plus, he did not
disrespect her body, so there was nothing illegal going on. He is not
divorced from his morals.
Chandre
Indigo
agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
> In article <35CCA112...@aempires.com>, Chandre Darkstorm
> <cha...@aempires.com> writes:
>
> >> > Piotr blew kat off then got with Zsaji in the Secret Wars.
> >> > Then there's the matter of Nereel.
> >>
> >
> >I thought Nereel came after. Post- Dark Phoenix... and hence,
> >post-Kitty's arrival. I thought she was introduced in the Classic X-Men
> >series, and then developed in X-Men annual 11 or so, when they dealt
> >with the High Evolutionary, at which point, Nereel had a son named
> >Peter.
> >
> >She may have come pre-Dark Phoenix, but all my classics are at my
> >parents' house in a box. Someone enlighten?
> >
>
> I *think* they met before Dark Phoenix when the new X-men first adventured in
> the Savage Land. It wasn't really shown in the comics but the Classic add-on
> was meant to be occuring at the same time. So technically she's pre-Kitty, and
> does put his decision not to have sex with Kitty in a slightly different
light.
>
> Conversely, why does she not tell Piotr the child in Annual 11 is his? I
think,
> because she didn't love Colossus but knew if he knew he'd insist on staying
and
> looking after the kid as a Savage Land farmer - and she *just* didn't want him
> in her life.
>
> Lazy Line Painter Al
>
With all due respect, LLP Al (and I respect you a lot. You're one of the
people whose responses I read even if I find the thread otherwise dull)
"His name is Peter. He's named after his father" is sort of dropping a hint
expected to be picked up on, isn't it?
I think that's where a lot of the "Peter is a dim bulb" prejudice (including,
admittedly, my own) comes from.
Indigo
mens...@aol.com (Menshevik) wrote:
> Brandon Blatcher writes:
>
> >Piotr could go anywhere he feels like. He had an art career in New York
> >and he probably has some money stashed away somewhere. Hell, he's an
> >artist, there are a number of places he might want to go, just to
> >paint'em.
>
> Don't know about the money. But one thing always bothered me:
> How come that artists whose actual work as shown in the comics
> always looks rather pedestrian, or perhaps one should rather say,
> like the drawings of a comicbook artist, gets feted in artsy circles
> in Earth-616's New York? I mean, this goes both for Alicia Masters'
> sculptures and for Piotr Rasputin/Peter Nicholas's paintings.
> Neither would really be considered avantgarde, so how come
> Peter Nicholas became so sucessful in so short a time?
>
> Just a thought.
>
The artist drawing the book, and thereby portraying the art-within-the-comic
of the Nicholas/Masters is not concentrating so hard on making it stand out,
because the narrative/writer/what-have-you has already told leaders "this
person is a celebrated artist" and the readers know it.
thus the artist is free to concentrate on the storytelling rather than making
the art stand out from the rest of the story.
I don't know for certain.
Dan McEwen
Oh, you're right. 170's, wasn't it?
Aleph Press
You didn't read my whole post. Please read the whole thing before
replying, okay?
I said Kitty has a thing for a bit of wildness (generally a safe
controlled wildness though), *and* a thing for bright guys. Peter and
Pete fit the first category (yes, Peter is hardly wild, but he was older,
more worldly and experienced, and exotic, as he came from a foreign
country and a completely foreign culture to Chicagoan Kitty), Doug and
Rigby the second.
AGr3691541
<cha...@aempires.com> writes:
>Just went to the comics shop today, picked up the controversial UXM 360,
>and did a little research on Nereel.
>
>You are correct. Nereel is pre-Dark Phoenix, story shows up in Classic
>X-Men 21. As for their relationship... well, it was Nereel and Fahe
>that insisted on that night of pleasures. Theirs was a totally
>different culture, and when in Rome...
Boy, the things Colossus had to put up with, being a hero...
It does suggest that although naive - Colossus wasn't totally naive - and puts
his rejection of sex with Kitty in a different, slightly more responsible
perspective.
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
>Alleigh (rog...@airmail.net) wrote:
>: On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:21:36 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
>: >: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
>: >: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
>: >: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
>: >: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
>: >
>: >I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
>: >walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
>
>: That Doug was a wild one wasn't he. I don't see Kitty that way I think
>: she likes the more down to Earth ones. Peter, Doug and Rigby vs Wisdom
>: - Wisdom is the odd-man out
>
>You didn't read my whole post. Please read the whole thing before
>replying, okay?
>
>I said Kitty has a thing for a bit of wildness (generally a safe
>controlled wildness though), *and* a thing for bright guys.
We could drive ourselves mad with this though - if Kitty is well-written like a
proper human being - we shouldn't be able to guess who she'll have a thing for.
In the real thing - such things are unexplainable ;)
Lazy Line Painter Al
AGr3691541
writes:
>n article <199808081953...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>With all due respect, LLP Al (and I respect you a lot. You're one of the
>people whose responses I read even if I find the thread otherwise dull)
Wow, Thanks
>"His name is Peter. He's named after his father" is sort of dropping a hint
>expected to be picked up on, isn't it?
I just read it differently - the look on her face said - it's good you've met
him, it's right you met him - but I don't want you staying.
She knew that if Colossus found out he was the dad - he would have insisted on
staying - so she didn't tell him. The lines probably more for our benefit as
readers, then Nereel trying to inform Colossus he's a dad.
>I think that's where a lot of the "Peter is a dim bulb" prejudice (including,
>admittedly, my own) comes from.
Colossus is not sharp and terribly naive - It does take a good writer to write
a naive character as something more than a complete idiot.
Claremont did occasionally make fun of Colossus' lack of intellectual
sharpness, but he was always careful to put it in the context of an otherwise
well-rounded character - something lost on the Marvel team in the early
nineties.
Lazy Line Painter Al
Indigo
Chandre Darkstorm <cha...@aempires.com> wrote:
> Indigo wrote:
> >
> > In article <35CC7691...@aempires.com>,
> > Chandre Darkstorm <cha...@aempires.com> wrote:
> > > Indigo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Unlike Alara, I don't think Kitty getting back with Wisdom would be a
step
> > > > backward. Kat admitted telling Wisdom of her affections for Rigby was a
> > > > mistake and that she regretted saying it because she lost him as a
result.
> > > > Possibly Kat would see getting back with him as rectifying the mistake.
> > > >
> > > What Kitty did was not a mistake.
> >
> > Kitty thinks it was because she loves Wisdom and isn't with him anymore.
> > Excalibur #124.
> >
> Kitty does not say that telling him was a mistake in E#124. If that's
> the case, she wouldn't be trying to convince Meggan to tell Brian the
> truth, and to do it herself, something she has to learn. I am not going
> to quote the whole page, go read it again. Feeling what she did for
> Rigby was the mistake, and Kitty even admits it in E#124. But not
> telling Wisdom? She doesn't sink so low as to say that.
Let me clarify how I inferred the scene. Kitty thought the Rigby-Wisdom
situation was a mistake because it lost her Wisdom.
>
> > She acknowledges she *does* love him, and that her sudden cold feet was a
> > mistake. Same Excalibur issue as referenced above.
> >
> She used the word love, yeah. I see nothing about cold feet, though.
Her sudden cold feet would be Kat's decision that she wanted to be with people
her own age.
>
> > > > It's upsetting to a lot of women to see Kat Pryde portrayed as going
back to
> > > > a man who has abusive tendencies, has been shown to mistreat her in the
> > past,
> > > > and is someone she's matured past.
> > >
> > > He never abused her physically...
> >
> > so it's okay if he beats up others as long as he doesn't hit her? That's the
> > kind of thinking that gets battered families no help.
>
> I have never said that it was right. A part of what I wrote that
> conveniently is not printed here is that the reaction is natural, not
> necessarily right.
>
It's not "natural" to want to beat people up. and it's an urge many people
suppress when they d have it or there would be fistfights in the streets a lot
more often.
Either way, Rasputin's motives, pure or not, were incorrect, and he had no
business making the assumption on behalf of Kat, nor acting without checking
with her.
And at the time, all he saw them doing was kissing. He had no way of knowing
that they'd been physically intimate. That's an awful lot of assumption.
> > > As to why people like him so much? Because he has always had a very
> > > pure heart.
> >
> > Pure to the point of following who seemed to be the most authoritative at
the
> > time.
>
> Spare me. Magneto has always been "authoritative" but it wasn't until
> Peter lost sight of the dream that he left. Colossus CAN and DOES think
> for himself. He'd questioned the dream.. and he left.
>
Left to go to the X-Men's oldest and greatest enemy, whom Rasputin fought
against on a regular basis while he was an X-Man? If he changed his mind, he
changed it for a new one, because it just does *not* make sense to suddenly
go: "You know, your way doesn't work. I think I'll try it the way of our
worst enemy who wants to take over the world."
> > After all he's been through, he should not still be naive. He's dealt with
the
> > brood, the marauders, the hellfire club, and Magneto's acolytes. If he's
> > still clueless after all this time, he's a lost cause, IMO.
> >
> > That's not innocence. It's blind idealism to the exclusion of all else -- or
> > perhaps willful refusal to deal with the reality he lives in.
> >
> Getting into killer fights makes you more mature in that you can handle
> most of the physical threats that come your way, things you can handle
> while in "automatic" mode. Love takes conscious work. Those kinds of
> experiences don't do much for the emotional development, specifically
> the parts that teach you what a loving relationship is.
>
And he's had the "little brother" relationship with Ororo, and the "pals"
relationships with Kurt and Logan. So it's not like he's lacked for normal
people and emotional development.
> And in the mutant world, there are only so many stances to take on how
> to approach humans. Being an X-Man, Xavier's way, is one stance. It
> didn't fit him. He left. Magneto's was another way. It didn't fit
> him. He left. People are allowed to change their minds. Granted, this
> was amid some really sucky writing of his character. But alas, what is
> in print is what is canon.
>
> > It was her choice, and not his place to decide that Wisdom had *made* her do
> > anything. For crying out loud, Moira Mactaggart would've personally kicked
> > Wisdom into the sea *herself* if he'd done anything Kitty didn't wish done.
> >
> > But because Piotr's heart is pure and he was angry it was okay? I think not.
>
> You and I know it was her choice, we all know it was her choice. But do
> try to be objective, and think in terms of where Peter has been.
I am. He jumped to conclusions. And as I already said, he had no way of
knowing Kat and Wisdom had been in bed together just from watching them kiss,
unless he overheard them saying something about it; in which case, he should
also have realized that Kitty was with Wisdom *willingly*.
> Without knowing Wisdom, having been away from Kitty for so long, do you
> really expect him to get the warm fuzzy from Kitty having sex with this
> shady guy that is even older than he is? Especiall consider that Peter
> had always respected her body.
>
One. It's not his place to get a warm fuzzy over Kat having sex.
Two. The proper response for "that girl I like has found someone else" is to
swallow one's own pain and be happy for her outwardly.
Three. He never saw them having sex. He'd *just* arrived on Muir and found
them kissing. That is not sufficient for "knowing she's having sex."
Four. Wisdom didn't disrespect Kat's body since she *chose* to have sex with
Wisdom. Just because Kat chose to have sex with someone other than Rasputin
doesn't mean Wisdom's disrespecting her body.
Five. He never asked, "Kitty, how are you with this? Is it what you wanted?"
That simple pair of questions would've saved everyone a lot of trouble. This
is what comes of Rasputin thinking for himself.
> >
> > How many guys do you know
> > > would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel?
> >
> > Absolutely none. They'd all give the girl credit for having a mind and
*ask*
> > her first before they started swinging.
> >
> Okay, I know this is the 90s but not everyone thinks this way. There
> are plenty of references in American pop culture of the daddy getting
> the shotgun to go after the guy that "spoiled" their daughter.
Rasputin is not American.
>It is a
> way that people behave. Is it right? Not to you, or to me. But in
> certain regions, yes. We do not all think alike, nor share the same
> values.
>
Colossus was trained as an X-Man to use his powers responsibly. Turning steel
and beating to death someone who had a body of perfectly human flesh and blood
goes against his training.
"X-Men don't kill" for that matter. This too is against Colossus' training.
Those were among his values, and because of his mental illness, they got
sidelined.
> > How many
> > > brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> > > sisters/daughters?
> >
> > If the sisters/daughters chose to be with that man of their own volition,
> > uncocerced, then it's not "spoiled."
>
> > and the fathers/brothers have no right to do anything lest they violate the
> > wishes of the woman in question.
>
> How egalitarian. See above.
It's not egalitarian. It's merely modern. In the days when stealing brides
or carrying off maidens was more commonplace, I could see how it might be
considered "spoiled". But in this day and age when a woman can and does make
up her own mind, it's an archaic viewpoint, IMO.
I saw the episode of Roseanne wherein Dan beat up Jackie's boyfriend. But
Jackie was *willingly* having sex with him. Dan beat up the boyfriend because
the *boyfriend* was beating Jackie. That, to me, is more understandable.
> > Peter has always been protective of Kitty. The
> > > first time Peter took a life in anger was in UXM 211, and it was because
> > > of Kitty getting hurt. I *will not* forget the look on his face, the
> > > anger in his heart, as he held a limp Riptide in his hands, and then
> > > turned to look for Harpoon. It's not an unnatural reaction, although it
> > > is not necessarily right.
> >
> > That was different. The Marauders were murderers several-times-over, and had
> > nearly killed Kitty.
> >
> > There's a difference between "You murdering monster who's killed lots of
> > people and also nearly killed Kitty" and "You disgusting svengali who
> > seduced Kitty (against her will)."
> >
> Again, not knowing Wisdom (whom Kitty herself didn't even trust at
> first) what do we honestly expect him to think?
Rasputin had no way of knowing Kitty didn't trust Wisdom at first. It's not
like he saw them kissing, and it looked like Kitty was struggling to get away.
She was quite happily kissing back rather than trying to get free.
That right there was a sign she had no problem with her current situation.
A sign which Rasputin ignored, then went on to violate the "X-Men don't abuse
their powers" and "X-Men don't kill" training he'd received.
>
> > I agree with Brandon. He and Callisto would make a *very* good pair even
> > though she's not beautiful. And the indications were in recent issues,
> > before she was hurt, that there were still feelings there.
>
> I agree that Callisto would seem to be a better choice. Even though
> she's supposed to be a hag.
Well, she was beautiful for a while, and the pair of them were a couple while
she was a supermodel.
I also picked up that the feelings were
> still there. Callisto has much that she could teach him, and I think it
> would bring significant development of his character. That is, if
> everyone will stop writing him like a lap dog. All of his relationships
> have been short-lived or not very serious, or both. A long-term intense
> relationship, probably with Callisto, would be a great start to
> developing his emotional skill.
>
Agreed. The thing in Paris with Meggan was a step in the right direction. I
personally wouldn't have minded seeing Meggan fall for him (since Brian
effectively abandoned her to the "sit at the pier and wait" thing rather than
taking her with him after losing the Capt. Britain powers).
He needs someone else. Someone who isn't Kat Pryde.
Indigo
<FF674344A5CE6C90.ECB85F07...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, rog...@REMOVETHISairmail.net wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:21:36 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
> >: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
> >: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
> >: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
> >: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
> >
> >I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
> >walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
>
> That Doug was a wild one wasn't he. I don't see Kitty that way I think
> she likes the more down to Earth ones. Peter, Doug and Rigby vs Wisdom
> - Wisdom is the odd-man out
>
>
How about: Kitty finds a diverse assortment of things attractive in men?
Rasputin: artistic and sensitive. At the beginning, very much the
boy-next-door. Part of the action as an X-Man who turned into shiny steel.
Ooooh, pretty.
Ramsey: Intelligent, had computers in common with her, wanted to be able to
get "into the action" like the other New Mutants. Also had sort of a
boy-next-door thing going on.
Rigby: Intelligent, had computers in common with her, was able to get "into
the action" because he worked for SHIELD. Looked exactly like Doug, there is
the boy-next-door thing.
Wisdom: Intelligent, sarcastic, nimble-witted, penitent, and was definitely
part of the action from Black Air, and again with Excalibur. Given how her
boy-next-door attractions went, maybe Kitty thought it was time to try
something different?
Indigo
They were all men, who, in one way or another could keep up with Kitty in one
aspect or another.
Indigo
agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
> In article <alephEx...@netcom.com>, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press)
writes:
>
> >: On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:21:36 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
> >
> >: >: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
> >: >: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
> >: >: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
> >: >: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
> >: >
> >: >I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
> >: >walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
> >
> >: That Doug was a wild one wasn't he. I don't see Kitty that way I think
> >: she likes the more down to Earth ones. Peter, Doug and Rigby vs Wisdom
> >: - Wisdom is the odd-man out
> >
> >replying, okay?
> >
> >I said Kitty has a thing for a bit of wildness (generally a safe
> >controlled wildness though), *and* a thing for bright guys.
>
> We could drive ourselves mad with this though - if Kitty is well-written like
a
> proper human being - we shouldn't be able to guess who she'll have a thing
for.
> In the real thing - such things are unexplainable ;)
>
> Lazy Line Painter Al
Oh, Al -- that's not always true.
There are lots of people who have a pattern of going for the same "type."
And I know several people who are or knew someone who broke up with someone
only to find/fall for/marry someone who looks exactly like their ex.
I'm bridesmaid in a wedding party for someone marrying a guy who looks like he
could be her ex-husband's brother.
Kitty, so far, likes blondes, brunettes, intelligent and/or sensitive men.
She hasn't, so far, shown an interest of men outside caucasian, redheads, or
guys from othr dimensions with the same intelligence/sensitivity.
::wink::
Indigo
Thomas Boij
credibility if they went ahead with restoring the Kitty/Peter
relationship. They're both very different people now; she's grown up,
he has... um... not grown up.
Kitty's crush on Peter was just a crush, and she got over it. Peter's
feelings for her were, in my opinion, urged by the lack of love in his
life. He saw an attractive girl, mature for her age, having interest
in him, and couldn't control it. Also, most of what we saw of their
early relationship had Kitty being the active part. Peter let her fall
in love with him. I'd very much doubt that he'd react differently
today. Thus, if Kitty doesn't encourage him, he won't do anything.
There are many more interesting relationships to pursue rather than
this one. Rogue and Gambit have some unfinished business. And what
about Kurt? Now that Amanda is off in Limbo, will he be unfaithful
again? The one relationship I'd have loved to see explored was
Sam/Marrow...
Thomas
--
Les mots font l'emotion | e-mail: bo...@geocities.com
web site: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/9295/
Alleigh
>Alleigh (rog...@airmail.net) wrote:
>: On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:21:36 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
>: >: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a spy
>: >: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
>: >: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
>: >: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
>: >
>: >I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
>: >walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
>
>: That Doug was a wild one wasn't he. I don't see Kitty that way I think
>: she likes the more down to Earth ones. Peter, Doug and Rigby vs Wisdom
>: - Wisdom is the odd-man out
>
>You didn't read my whole post. Please read the whole thing before
>replying, okay?
I read your whole post - I just am saying that Doug and Rigby and
Peter weren't bad boys - only Wisdom - so I don't see Kitty has having
a thing for the bad boy type.
>
>
AGr3691541
writes:
>In article <199808090933...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> agr36...@aol.com (AGr3691541) wrote:
>> In article <alephEx...@netcom.com>, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press)
>writes:
>>
>> >Alleigh (rog...@airmail.net) wrote:
>> >: On Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:21:36 GMT, al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>> >
>> >: >: I don't see what Kitty ever saw in Wisdom - just because one was a
>spy
>> >: >: does not mean they are on the same level - it is obvious that Kitty
>> >: >: wasn't since she has a tendancy (sp ?) to fall for somone who is one
>> >: >: her intellectual match even while with her respective Petes.
>> >: >
>> >: >I think Kitty has a thing for men who represent maturity, sexuality, a
>> >: >walk on the wild side-- Peter, who was so much older and more worldly
>> >
>> >: That Doug was a wild one wasn't he. I don't see Kitty that way I think
>> >: she likes the more down to Earth ones. Peter, Doug and Rigby vs Wisdom
>> >: - Wisdom is the odd-man out
>> >
>> >You didn't read my whole post. Please read the whole thing before
>> >replying, okay?
>> >
>> >I said Kitty has a thing for a bit of wildness (generally a safe
>> >controlled wildness though), *and* a thing for bright guys.
>>
>> We could drive ourselves mad with this though - if Kitty is well-written
>like
>a
>> proper human being - we shouldn't be able to guess who she'll have a thing
>for.
>> In the real thing - such things are unexplainable ;)
>>
>Oh, Al -- that's not always true.
>
>There are lots of people who have a pattern of going for the same "type."
>
>And I know several people who are or knew someone who broke up with someone
>only to find/fall for/marry someone who looks exactly like their ex.
>
>I'm bridesmaid in a wedding party for someone marrying a guy who looks like
>he
>could be her ex-husband's brother.
>
>Kitty, so far, likes blondes, brunettes, intelligent and/or sensitive men.
>
>She hasn't, so far, shown an interest of men outside caucasian, redheads, or
>guys from othr dimensions with the same intelligence/sensitivity.
>
>::wink::
I see your point, and in the real world thats mostly true but a good comics
writer should have a character fall in love with someone we don't expect, and
then justify it completely to the reader - just as I think Ellis did with
Kitty/Wisdom. The unexpected nature and unpredictability is a difficult aspect
to write, but is miles better than Lobdells pairing off of surplus X-men.
Kelly's initial plan to bring Marrow and Cannonball together could have been
great, he's a strong enough writer to make it work. But no-one, absolutely
no-one on this newsgroup could have predicted Cannonball's type being a
bone-ridden violent Morlock. ;)
Lazy Line Painter Al
Chandre Darkstorm
>
> > > She acknowledges she *does* love him, and that her sudden cold feet was a
> > > mistake. Same Excalibur issue as referenced above.
> > >
> > She used the word love, yeah. I see nothing about cold feet, though.
>
> Her sudden cold feet would be Kat's decision that she wanted to be with people
> her own age.
> >
It wasn't quite that. Kitty was having doubts, and Wisdom took it upon
himself to exit stage left. Kitty was being honest with him... Wisdom
packed his bags. He wouldn't even see it from her side. Who got the
cold feet now?
> It's not "natural" to want to beat people up. and it's an urge many people
> suppress when they d have it or there would be fistfights in the streets a lot
> more often.
>
People want to hurt people all the time. Most folks just don't act on
it, like you said.
> Either way, Rasputin's motives, pure or not, were incorrect, and he had no
> business making the assumption on behalf of Kat, nor acting without checking
> with her.
>
Yes, we've already established that.
> And at the time, all he saw them doing was kissing. He had no way of knowing
> that they'd been physically intimate. That's an awful lot of assumption.
>
> > > > As to why people like him so much? Because he has always had a very
> > > > pure heart.
> > >
> > > Pure to the point of following who seemed to be the most authoritative at
> the
> > > time.
> >
> > Spare me. Magneto has always been "authoritative" but it wasn't until
> > Peter lost sight of the dream that he left. Colossus CAN and DOES think
> > for himself. He'd questioned the dream.. and he left.
> >
>
> Left to go to the X-Men's oldest and greatest enemy, whom Rasputin fought
> against on a regular basis while he was an X-Man? If he changed his mind, he
> changed it for a new one, because it just does *not* make sense to suddenly
> go: "You know, your way doesn't work. I think I'll try it the way of our
> worst enemy who wants to take over the world."
>
At the time, Magneto sought to divorce himself and all mutants from the
world, creating a safe haven for all mutants who would follow him in
Avalon. Yes, even Magneto can change his approach.
> > > After all he's been through, he should not still be naive. He's dealt with
> the
> > > brood, the marauders, the hellfire club, and Magneto's acolytes. If he's
> > > still clueless after all this time, he's a lost cause, IMO.
> > >
> > > That's not innocence. It's blind idealism to the exclusion of all else -- or
> > > perhaps willful refusal to deal with the reality he lives in.
> > >
> > Getting into killer fights makes you more mature in that you can handle
> > most of the physical threats that come your way, things you can handle
> > while in "automatic" mode. Love takes conscious work. Those kinds of
> > experiences don't do much for the emotional development, specifically
> > the parts that teach you what a loving relationship is.
> >
>
> And he's had the "little brother" relationship with Ororo, and the "pals"
> relationships with Kurt and Logan. So it's not like he's lacked for normal
> people and emotional development.
Those kinds of relationships don't teach you about being intimate on
THAT kind of level. Plenty of people are great pals and friends, but
have a problem with being intimate (not necessarily sexual) with
others. That adroitness comes easier for some than others.
> > You and I know it was her choice, we all know it was her choice. But do
> > try to be objective, and think in terms of where Peter has been.
>
> I am. He jumped to conclusions. And as I already said, he had no way of
> knowing Kat and Wisdom had been in bed together just from watching them kiss,
> unless he overheard them saying something about it; in which case, he should
> also have realized that Kitty was with Wisdom *willingly*.
>
> > Without knowing Wisdom, having been away from Kitty for so long, do you
> > really expect him to get the warm fuzzy from Kitty having sex with this
> > shady guy that is even older than he is? Especiall consider that Peter
> > had always respected her body.
> >
>
> One. It's not his place to get a warm fuzzy over Kat having sex.
>
> Two. The proper response for "that girl I like has found someone else" is to
> swallow one's own pain and be happy for her outwardly.
>
> Three. He never saw them having sex. He'd *just* arrived on Muir and found
> them kissing. That is not sufficient for "knowing she's having sex."
>
> Four. Wisdom didn't disrespect Kat's body since she *chose* to have sex with
> Wisdom. Just because Kat chose to have sex with someone other than Rasputin
> doesn't mean Wisdom's disrespecting her body.
>
> Five. He never asked, "Kitty, how are you with this? Is it what you wanted?"
> That simple pair of questions would've saved everyone a lot of trouble. This
> is what comes of Rasputin thinking for himself.
Will address this later.
>
> > >
> > > How many guys do you know
> > > > would do the same thing, although they can't turn into steel?
> > >
> > > Absolutely none. They'd all give the girl credit for having a mind and
> *ask*
> > > her first before they started swinging.
> > >
> > Okay, I know this is the 90s but not everyone thinks this way. There
> > are plenty of references in American pop culture of the daddy getting
> > the shotgun to go after the guy that "spoiled" their daughter.
>
> Rasputin is not American.
>
And rural Russia is more enlightened?
> >It is a
> > way that people behave. Is it right? Not to you, or to me. But in
> > certain regions, yes. We do not all think alike, nor share the same
> > values.
> >
>
> Colossus was trained as an X-Man to use his powers responsibly. Turning steel
> and beating to death someone who had a body of perfectly human flesh and blood
> goes against his training.
>
> "X-Men don't kill" for that matter. This too is against Colossus' training.
>
> Those were among his values, and because of his mental illness, they got
> sidelined.
>
I concede that yes, his mental illness really did screw him up.
> > > How many
> > > > brothers and fathers want to kill the man that spoiled their
> > > > sisters/daughters?
> > >
> > > If the sisters/daughters chose to be with that man of their own volition,
> > > uncocerced, then it's not "spoiled."
> >
> > > and the fathers/brothers have no right to do anything lest they violate the
> > > wishes of the woman in question.
> >
> > How egalitarian. See above.
>
> It's not egalitarian. It's merely modern. In the days when stealing brides
> or carrying off maidens was more commonplace, I could see how it might be
> considered "spoiled". But in this day and age when a woman can and does make
> up her own mind, it's an archaic viewpoint, IMO.
Again, rural Russia is more enlightened? Peter's background is from
SOVIET Russia, not modern-day Russia. Even then, that's a stretch. Our
problem is now partly stemming from the fact that comic characters don't
age at the same pace we do. And, if this was the 70s, it wouldn't be so
hard to recognize his motivations as being more normal.
> > Again, not knowing Wisdom (whom Kitty herself didn't even trust at
> > first) what do we honestly expect him to think?
>
> Rasputin had no way of knowing Kitty didn't trust Wisdom at first. It's not
> like he saw them kissing, and it looked like Kitty was struggling to get away.
> She was quite happily kissing back rather than trying to get free.
>
> That right there was a sign she had no problem with her current situation.
>
Everyone's first reaction to Wisdom is that he isn't to be trusted.
Nobody just up and likes the guy straight off. Regardless of whether or
not he knew that Kitty didn't trust Wisdom, think about where he came
from. Put yourself in his shoes. Kitty is a young girl, even though
she is mature for her age, kissing a guy that is even older than you?
The point of seduction is persuasion to do something you might not have
done otherwise, and if he sees, with no prior knowledge, this guy who is
probably some "dirty old man" kissing this young girl.. the first
instinct is that she has been seduced. Like you don't get the
heebiejeebies when you see it happen in real life? 9 times out of 10,
it's not "true love." Combine that with a bit of jealousy, plus an
altered perspective since his mental illness...
> A sign which Rasputin ignored, then went on to violate the "X-Men don't abuse
> their powers" and "X-Men don't kill" training he'd received.
He's come a long way from the "blind idealism" that you said he sported
before. Was he right? No. But he's since then adjusted. Made peace
with it. Accepted it. Accepted Wisdom. There is mercy for those who
are temporarily insane.
> He needs someone else. Someone who isn't Kat Pryde.
Agreed.
Chandre.
Kate the Short -- Spamblocked!
>
>> : > Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
>
>> : Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
>
>> Kitty and Peter Rasputin (not Pete Wisdom) were going out when she was 13
>> and he was 19.
>
>Illuminating (Peter, much like Mike Tyson, *never* looked 19), but nonetheless
>creepy. This is really just...egggh.
Well, it wasn't that creepy at the time. They were dating and kissing,
but not much more. Piotr was often young and childish (well, closer to
naive, actually), while Kitty was a lot more mature and intelligent than
most. On an emotional and intellectual level, they were only 1-3 years
apart.
Piotr did respect her, too. *She* was the one who wanted to sleep with
him when she thought they were going to die (waaaaay back in the 160s of
the Brood Saga-- buy those issues now!!!), and he told her no! He
wasn't that big of a jerk.
Like I said-- he was naive. He didn't deliberately set out to fall in
love, or feel more passion for the fake dead chick than he did for
Kitty, and he felt *damn* guilty about it for a long time. That doesn't
make it all go away, but it makes it understandable.
Given the fact that they've been apart for a good year or three, Kitty's
grown up a lot, Piotr's gotten himself a bit more recentered after the
wigging-out-and-beating-Pete-to-a-pulp incident, and they're both on new
terms as friends. If something was to come out of that, I wouldn't have
a huge problem with it, as long as it was handled maturely and
rationally.
kate.
| Kate the Short -katew @ enteract.com- http://www.enteract.com/~katew/ |
| Address is spamblocked - watch where you send replies! - ICQ# 8375030 |
| Website redone! /personal /comics /faqs /sorority /wedding /internet |
| We finally tied the knot. Wheeee! Watch my webpage for the summary. |
Jim Smith
>
> In article <6qg1nm$1bv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com> sat on the sofa and said:
> >In article <alephEx...@netcom.com>,
> > al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
> >> Kitty and Peter Rasputin (not Pete Wisdom) were going out when she was 13
> >> and he was 19.
> >Illuminating (Peter, much like Mike Tyson, *never* looked 19), but nonetheless
> >creepy. This is really just...egggh.
>
> Well, it wasn't that creepy at the time.
Sometimes racmx reminds me of some strange cult, of which I am not a
member. The transe-like fixation on plot threads, the mass insistence
that everyone "really out to read" their certain literature--it's all
there. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me that, when I ask about
this thing, the first reaction is "Oh, Jim just wants to know what issue
it happened in," and the second is to say "Well, Kitty was mature for
her age..."
I mean, a dozen people all have the exact same defense of this
weirdness. Is my secondhand bio-modem on the blink?
They were dating and kissing,
> but not much more. Piotr was often young and childish (well, closer to
> naive, actually), while Kitty was a lot more mature and intelligent than
> most. On an emotional and intellectual level, they were only 1-3 years
> apart.
OK, Benny from "L.A. Law" was on about the same emotional and
intellectual level with Michelle from later episodes of "Full House."
Who wants to see them make out?
> Piotr did respect her, too. *She* was the one who wanted to sleep with
> him when she thought they were going to die (waaaaay back in the 160s of
> the Brood Saga-- buy those issues now!!!),
This is a joke, right?
and he told her no! He
> wasn't that big of a jerk.
It's not the sex thing that bothers me, Kate. It's the cradle-robbing
in general. Naive or no, 19-year-olds look pretty freaky dating
13-year-olds, because 19-year-olds look like adults and 13-year-olds
look like children (except in comics).
Not that I expect them to retcon it or apologize for it, but I *do*
reserve the right to say "Ewwwwww" when I think about it, and give you
guys funny looks when you condone it.
> Given the fact that they've been apart for a good year or three, Kitty's
> grown up a lot, Piotr's gotten himself a bit more recentered after the
> wigging-out-and-beating-Pete-to-a-pulp incident, and they're both on new
> terms as friends. If something was to come out of that, I wouldn't have
> a huge problem with it, as long as it was handled maturely and
> rationally.
Well, sure. I knew they had a history; I had just hoped Kitty had been
18 by that point. If they hit it off *now*, I wouldn't sweat it. But
by the same token, if MACH-1 and Songbird somehow had gotten together in
their Flashback Month appearance (when she was 12 and he was 25) I'd be
repulsed...and they're my favorite couple in comics.
Jim Smith
Brandon Blatcher
<09B654DE5F3F1B0D.07840F4C...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
rog...@REMOVETHISairmail.net wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 14:36:44 -0400, nom...@mindspring.com (Brandon
> Blatcher) wrote:
>
> >In article
>
><C34A85BFD6324E09.988279BD...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
> >rog...@REMOVETHISairmail.net wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 13:12:04 GMT, ind...@plastic.spork.com (Indigo)
> >> wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> >
> >> >Wisdom was on a level (or near it) intellectually with Kat.
> >> >Piotr is definitely not.
> >>
> >> Here is my problem - a highly intelligent person cannot fall for a
> >> dumber person. That intelligent people should be with other
> >> intelligent people.
> >
> >Here is my problem - the idead that Piotr is dumb or dumber than Kitty.
> >He's quite smart, merely in a different way. I see Piotr as more of a
> >thinker who turns ideas over his head a lot and expresses them through
> >painting. Kitty just has brute strentgh intelligence.
> >
> >>How many people on Kitty's level do you know and
> >> out of those who married/dating someone that is one or near that
> >> level. Sorry but that statement kinda bothered me.
> >
> >I think you're seeing things in a narrow light. I suspect Piotr has no
>
> I didn't say he was dumb now did I?
No, but you came pretty close to painting Peter in inferior positionl
>I think that Peter is not on
> Kitty's level but I don't think he is necessarily stupid
But then again Kitty isn't on Peter's level. Take her into an art musuem
and what will she see? Will she be able to understand the paintings, the
sculputre, the various styles. Put a paint brush in her hand, and how will
she express herself?
-Brandon
sketchbook pages:
http://www.mindspring.com/~nomadic/sketchbook/01.htm
Brandon Blatcher
> In article <199808081953...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> > Lazy Line Painter Al
> >
>
> With all due respect, LLP Al (and I respect you a lot. You're one of the
> people whose responses I read even if I find the thread otherwise dull)
>
> "His name is Peter. He's named after his father" is sort of dropping a hint
> expected to be picked up on, isn't it?
>
> I think that's where a lot of the "Peter is a dim bulb" prejudice (including,
> admittedly, my own) comes from.
With good reason. I mean, how many hints do you have to drop before he
gets the hint? He didn't even think to ask, to say, hey "That's my name,
is that my kid"? Very strange and very dim witted
Duncan Hay
>
> > Where Logan gives Peter a good telling-to and then amusedly
> > watches him get beaten up by the Juggernaut in a barroom brawl. :-)
> >
>
> Funny enough, I really like this set up.. A nice on-going story in the
> X-books...
>
> "Any guy that breaks kitty's heart will be given a good telling-to by
> Logan AND get his ass whooped by the Juggernaut."
>
>
Yeah, and Logan's advice was that Piotr owed his life to Kitty and should have
pretended nothing had changed.Ignoring the number of times Piotr had saved various
X-peoples lives, wouldn't this have made for such a healthy relationship.
I didn't like Kitty to start with, and everyone in the X-men treating a 13 year
old girl throwing herself at a 18/19? year old guy as a normal relationship
worried me.
Logan who got engaged to one woman while constantly sniffing around Jean Grey is
in no position to give anyone advice on honor in relationships.
Standing aside while Juggernaut pounded on Piotr was another wonderful piece of
Logan thinking, apparently Piotr telling Kitty he'd fallen for a woman (notice I
didn't say another woman) was exactly the same as betraying an X-man in battle, so
he and Kurt stood there and watched to show him he was wrong.
So Logan's advice to Piotr boiled down to 'Lie!'
Quite frankly I would have had some harsh word to say to Logan at this stage of
things, "Do as I say, not do as I do." would have been some of the milder ones.
> -
> "I'll Tell you what will come in the next millennium;
> 1000 more years of the same old crap."
> ======================================================================
> |-Gann0n-| -- You will respect my authouratah!
>
Duncan
Duncan Hay
Snips here...
>
> Peter was, with Zsaji and Nereel, the proverbial kid let loose in the candy
> store, who went nuts and then remembered he had something great waiting for
> him at home...or would have, if he hadn't gone nuts in the candy store.
>
> Kitty deserves better.
>
> Here's hoping Alara's right and that the Kitty/Piotr romance dies a fast,
> ignoble death and that Piotr leaves the team to go shack up with Nereel and
> his son in the Savage Land (if it hasn't flooded).
>
> Indigo
Ummm sorry, but that's crap.
The whole Kitty/Piotr relationship was a disaster waiting to happen.
She made all the running, Piotr thought he was in love with her till he
saw and was brought back from death by Zsaji.
He may or may not have been truly in love with Zsaji, they never
exchanged a word after all but once he'd seen that he didn't truly love
Kitty he told her.
Despite the 'master of relationships' Wolverine's advice that since he
owed Kitty his life he should have faked it.
Marvellous logic that. "I saved your life! Spread your legs!'
OK, nasty breakup, made worse by the young age of both of them, we had
Kitty being a bitch about it for a while, then they got over it and
started working together again.
Then we come to the dark days, Excalibur #75, Kitty is used to lure Piotr
back down so his friends can jump him and give him involuntary brain
surgery.
Something not considered important enough to bother with until he left
the X-men.
All of a sudden Piotr is Kitty's slave again?
This is crap, like Excalibur #92 where he shows up and stomps Wisdom,
utter trash, ignoring how much they've both grown and changed and taking
them back to a messy teenage relationship.
They are over it for God's sake!
Duncan
de Designers, Consul
> Jim Smith wrote:
> >Aleph Press wrote:
> >> Okay, you wanna know the *real* reason I hate hate HATE the idea of
> >> Kitty and Peter getting together?
> >> Peter *dumped* her, when she was 13,
> >Whoawhoawhoawhoawhoa....back up here a minute. Run that by me again?
> Where Logan gives Peter a good telling-to and then amusedly
> watches him get beaten up by the Juggernaut in a barroom brawl. :-)
Oh for pete's sake, a woman opens her heart and you guys are nitpicking ages!?!
This MUST be racmx! ;D
Thank you Alara, for opening up and making a link between RL and xbooks. It's
what racmx is for.
Hey folks, come by to my booth at San Diego Con! I'm blanking on the exact booth
numbers, but it is an endcap on the 1900's near the ?1930s?, anyway, I'm the
asian guy at Endangered Species.
--
de Designers,
[Jameson Stalanthas Yu, Shade and Sweet Water, mes amis and Edgerunners]
[Link at http://www-scf.usc.edu/~jamesony -X- ICQ 10208399]
[Joint Educational Project http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/JEP]
[Mutatis mutandis, strive to be humane, not human]
de Designers, Consul
> Danny Miller wrote:
> Being in such close quarters, with someone as mature and affectionate as
> Kitty, it is not a far jump to have feelings for her. Plus, he did not
> disrespect her body, so there was nothing illegal going on. He is not
> divorced from his morals.
But the law doesn't distinguish between sex/no sex when deciding ages of
consent. You are not supposed to be dating them at all. It's a corruption of a
minor offense that can be prosecuted if it is pressed, it hardly is, but it can
be legally binding, IIRC.
tru...@rocketmail.com
ind...@plastic.spork.com (Indigo) wrote:
> Piotr is mentally unstable and dangerous. He has a skewed grasp of reality,
> and that's aside from having little intellectually in common with Kitty.
Piotr's writers can be unstable and dangerous. They have a skewed grasp on the
character, and that's aside from having little in common with him.
IMHO, Piotr's rampage in Excalibur was grossly out-of-character. And I know
many others on this NG share that opinion. It just didn't make sense. If you
need to give a continuity reason why it happened... okay, he had just
recently fallen out of orbit, maybe he landed on his head and wasn't thinking
straight. Which would also give an excuse why Kitty has been friendly with
him lately. In fact, it's been some time since anyone in the comics have
given any reference to that incident. So maybe TPTB have decided it was a bad
idea, too.
> We're just lucky Kitty can phase. It will come in handy when Piotr loses it
> again.
>
Not too likely. I give Kelly and Seagle much more credit than having to make a
character go spontaneously insane to create a story. Although I would prefer
that they not restart the Kitty-Piotr relationship right up again. I have no
problem with the two of them together, if it's something that is built up in a
reasoable way. But that should take a while. A long while. They shouldn't hook
back up over the course of a cruise across the Atlantic.
-- Wade (although, anything is better than Kitty+Logan)
Kate the Short -- Spamblocked!
Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com> sat on the sofa and said:
>Kate the Short -- Spamblocked! wrote:
>> Jim Smith <jimna...@hotmail.com> sat on the sofa and said:
>> > al...@netcom.com (Aleph Press) wrote:
>
>> >> Kitty and Peter Rasputin (not Pete Wisdom) were going out when she was 13
>> >> and he was 19.
>
>> >Illuminating (Peter, much like Mike Tyson, *never* looked 19), but nonetheless
>> >creepy. This is really just...egggh.
>>
>> Well, it wasn't that creepy at the time.
>
>Sometimes racmx reminds me of some strange cult, of which I am not a
>member. The transe-like fixation on plot threads, the mass insistence
>that everyone "really out to read" their certain literature--it's all
>there. I guess it really shouldn't surprise me that, when I ask about
>this thing, the first reaction is "Oh, Jim just wants to know what issue
>it happened in," and the second is to say "Well, Kitty was mature for
>her age..."
>
>I mean, a dozen people all have the exact same defense of this
>weirdness. Is my secondhand bio-modem on the blink?
Well, I personally like to give *some* examples so people who have the
issues can look it up, and people who don't can borrow one or flip
through it. :) I know you didn't *ask* for it, but I'm not emailing
you-- I'm writing to a larger audience, some of whom may *want* to know
what era or issue(s) I'm talking about.
As for feeling the same way about Kitty, I was 11 or 12 when I started
reading UXM, and the Brood Saga were the first run of *back* issues that
I bought. I've felt that way about their relationship for a *looooong*
time, way before I found this newsgroup. -shrug-
>> They were dating and kissing,
>> but not much more. Piotr was often young and childish (well, closer to
>> naive, actually), while Kitty was a lot more mature and intelligent than
>> most. On an emotional and intellectual level, they were only 1-3 years
>> apart.
>
>OK, Benny from "L.A. Law" was on about the same emotional and
>intellectual level with Michelle from later episodes of "Full House."
>Who wants to see them make out?
And there are people in their 30's who marry guys in their 60's. Are
you going to tell them that they're wrong?
>> Piotr did respect her, too. *She* was the one who wanted to sleep with
>> him when she thought they were going to die (waaaaay back in the 160s of
>> the Brood Saga-- buy those issues now!!!),
>
>This is a joke, right?
Not if people have the money. I don't expect *you* to do it.
>> and he told her no! He
>> wasn't that big of a jerk.
>
>It's not the sex thing that bothers me, Kate. It's the cradle-robbing
>in general. Naive or no, 19-year-olds look pretty freaky dating
>13-year-olds, because 19-year-olds look like adults and 13-year-olds
>look like children (except in comics).
Uh-huh. I know you didn't know Becky Lem, who was 13 or just 14 when I
met her, and looked a *damn* sight older than that. When she dressed
up, she looked about 25-30. She dated guys in their later teens and
early 20's, was taking college psych classes at the community college,
and was paying rent to her parents. Maybe that's wrong, but she did
look and act the same age as the guys she was dating. This *is* a
real-life person. :)
>Not that I expect them to retcon it or apologize for it, but I *do*
>reserve the right to say "Ewwwwww" when I think about it, and give you
>guys funny looks when you condone it.
I don't condone it in general, but I accept it in specific.
>> Given the fact that they've been apart for a good year or three, Kitty's
>> grown up a lot, Piotr's gotten himself a bit more recentered after the
>> wigging-out-and-beating-Pete-to-a-pulp incident, and they're both on new
>> terms as friends. If something was to come out of that, I wouldn't have
>> a huge problem with it, as long as it was handled maturely and
>> rationally.
>
>Well, sure. I knew they had a history; I had just hoped Kitty had been
>18 by that point. If they hit it off *now*, I wouldn't sweat it. But
>by the same token, if MACH-1 and Songbird somehow had gotten together in
>their Flashback Month appearance (when she was 12 and he was 25) I'd be
>repulsed...and they're my favorite couple in comics.
See? :)
tru...@rocketmail.com
> > > > He never abused her physically... although what I saw in Generation Next
> > > > was really disturbing, thank God that was an alternate reality.
> > >
> > > What was disturbing about it?
> >
> > Oh, she just solidified and he beat her to death in his fit of rage over
> > something he couldn't control.
>
> Oops! Forgot about that one. I liked Generation Next, at first, for its
> development of Peter, but what it lead to...I hate it, with a passion.
>
Err... are you talking about the last issue of AOA? 'Cause that's not quite
what I remember.
I remember Piotr running toward the Crystal, and Kat standing in fron of him.
She thought he would stop. He thought she would phase. They were both wrong,
and he just sort of ran her over. I wouldn't call that "he beat her to
death." Of course, I might be recalling it incorrectly.
-- Wade
Kate the Short -- Spamblocked!
" de Designers, Consul" <jame...@usc.edu> sat on the sofa and said:
>Chandre Darkstorm wrote:
>> Danny Miller wrote:
>> Being in such close quarters, with someone as mature and affectionate as
>> Kitty, it is not a far jump to have feelings for her. Plus, he did not
>> disrespect her body, so there was nothing illegal going on. He is not
>> divorced from his morals.
>
>But the law doesn't distinguish between sex/no sex when deciding ages of
>consent. You are not supposed to be dating them at all. It's a corruption of a
>minor offense that can be prosecuted if it is pressed, it hardly is, but it can
>be legally binding, IIRC.
What the heck is an age of *consent* for, then? Additionally, many
places won't proscecute or press charges if the parties are less than
three years apart in age. (like 16 and 18, or 19 and 17). Granted, this
isn't the case with K&P, but there ya have it.