The 198
Paul O'Brien
actual profiles (or just can't be bothered squinting at the illegible
dark-blue-on-black text):
THE 198 FILES is basically a list of various characters who are still
mutants, with brief profiles. The number 198 is given, rather
implausibly, as the US government's current provisional estimate of the
number of mutants left alive. That leaves the door open for the number
to be raised, and in any event it's plainly inconsistent with other
comics which claim it's a 90% reduction - the global population of
mutants was obviously being written as more than 2000 before M-Day.
On top of that, the FILES doesn't list all of the 198 characters. It
lists 138 surviving mutants (132 profiles, but the Stepford Cuckoos
count as three and the Collective Man as five). So omission from the
FILES doesn't imply that a character has definitely lost his powers,
since even the 198 figure is accurate, sixty mutants are missing.
Nonetheless, this is clearly taken from Marvel's internal list of who's
a mutant and who isn't.
They're also in alphabetical order, so for those wanting a line-up
that's easier to digest, the FILES confirms that the following
characters are still mutants. Some of them are extremely random
choices.
X-MEN AND THEIR ALLIES:
- Archangel, the Beast, Bishop, Cable, Caliban, Cannonball, Lila Cheney,
Colossus, Cyclops, Dazzler, Domino, Forge, Emma Frost, Gambit, Gateway,
Havok, Husk, Iceman, Karma, Kylun, Leech, Lifeguard, M, Magma, Marvel
Girl, Micromax, Madrox, Nightcrawler, Nocturne, Kitty Pryde, Psylocke,
Rogue, Sage, Shatterstar (if he's a mutant, and his entry expresses some
doubt), Siryn, Tabitha Smith, Storm, Strong Guy, Sunspot, Thunderbird
(the Indian one), Warpath, Pete Wisdom, Wolfsbane, Wolverine and X-23
OTHER MAJOR SUPERHEROES:
- Aurora, Northstar (who apparently isn't undead after all), Diamond
Lil, Madison Jeffries and Persuasion from Alpha Flight
- Big Bertha, Flatman and Squirrel Girl from the GLX. (No mention of
the other two team members - Mr Immortal and Doorman - but on one view,
current continuity has their powers deriving from Oblivion anyway.)
- Firestar and Justice
- Molly from the Runaways
- Franklin Richards (who used to be in Power Pack, so yes he IS a
superhero)
- Ricochet from Excelsior
- Skein, formerly the Gypsy Moth, who was briefly a Thunderbolt
THE NEW MUTANTS AND OTHER STUDENTS:
- Elixir, Icarus, Surge and Wallflower from the New Mutants
- Hellion, Dust, Mercury, Rockslide and Wither from the Hellions
- Kid Omega
- The Stepford Cuckoos
- Anole, the gay reptile kid
- Blindfold, the telepath from ASTONISHING.
- Bling! and Onyxx from Gambit's X-MEN squad.
- Ernst, whose "Cassandra Nova" origin story has suddenly reared its
head again. Somebody's finally read the comics!
- Glob Herman, the skeleton in the translucent body.
- Hisako Ichiki, the psychic exoskeleton girl from ASTONISHING.
- Martha Johansson, the disembodied brain
- Loa, a little known character with phasing powers
- Match, a pyrokinetic
- Pixie, the girl with butterfly wings
- Quill, the porcupine boy
- Trance, an astral projector
- Wolf Cub, the boy from the Dominant Species arc
SUPERVILLAINS:
- Avalanche
- Black Box, who used to be Commcast
- Jamie Braddock
- Joanna Cargill from the Acolytes
- The Dark Beast
- Empath from the original Hellions.
- Exodus
- Fever Pitch and Sack from Gene Nation
- Selene, Sebastian Shaw and Shinobi Shaw of the Hellfire Club
- Lady Mastermind, the daughter of the original Mastermind
- The Living Monolith
- Mammomax from Exodus' Brotherhood
- Arclight, Prism, Scalphunter and Scrambler from the Marauders
- Mentallo from Weapon X
- Dragoness and Tempo from the Mutant Liberation Front
- Mystique
- Mikhail Rasputin
- Omega Red
- Random
- Sabretooth
- The Silver Samurai
- The Toad
- Whirlwind, an occasional Avengers villain
RANDOMS AND NONENTITIES:
- Alchemy, the character from the "create a mutant" contest in the
1980s.
- Beautiful Dreamer and Erg, two of the surviving Morlocks
- Tatiana Caban and Kiden Nixon from NYX
- The Collective Man, national superhero of China
- Mr M, Jazz and Lorelei from DISTRICT X
- Litterbug from the MORLOCKS series a few years back, which is
apparently canon after all despite taking place in a dystopian world
where Sentinels zap every mutant who steps above ground
- Outlaw from AGENT X
- Peepers, Frank Tieri's favourite minor character
- Rhapsody, who once met X-Factor in the early 1990s
- Sabra, national superhero of Israel
- Vanguard and Ursa Major of the Soviet Super-Soldiers
- Amelia Voght
- Evangeline Whedon, the X-Men's lawyer
--
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS - http://www.thexaxis.com
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
IF DESTROYED - http://ifdestroyed.blogspot.com
~consul
> - Big Bertha, Flatman and Squirrel Girl from the GLX. (No mention of
> the other two team members - Mr Immortal and Doorman - but on one view,
> current continuity has their powers deriving from Oblivion anyway.)
Yay, Continuity!
> - Molly from the Runaways
Yay for the Runaways!
> - Glob Herman, the skeleton in the translucent body.
I was reminded of him since he looks so much like that thing that landed on
Earth that Lorna saw.
Cripes. Maybe because I just saw Kate Beckinsale in that crazy poor Alice in
Wonderland (2000) that just aired on TV a couple of nights ago, but it just
reminded me of Cold Comfort Farm, and the old grandma that "saw the thing in
woodshed all those many years ago."
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these
Trials, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
Nathan P. Mahney
news:dpml57$iqb$1...@gist.usc.edu...
> Paul O'Brien wrote:
>
> > - Glob Herman, the skeleton in the translucent body.
>
> I was reminded of him since he looks so much like that > thing that landed
on
> Earth that Lorna saw.
Given that that arc is written by Peter Milligan, I'm guessing based on
appearances that the thing Lorna saw is related to Doop in some fashion.
--
- Nathan P. Mahney -
THE MAHNEY PIT -- http://free.hostdepartment.com/n/npmahney
NERDBLOG -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/nathanpmahney
Nathan P. Mahney
It's an odd list, but I can't help thinking that more mutants should have
been depowered to make this story count. There are quite a few whose
effectiveness as characters would be barely affected. Bishop could still
operate as a cop/detective. Gambit would still have his thieving abilities.
Cable would be back to being a futuristic soldier, and Nicieza's knocked his
power level down anyway (would the techno-virus still kill him if he was
powerless?). Domino is rarely seen using her power. I could go on. The
point is, it needed to hit the major characters harder, and the above would
have been a reasonable sample.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: The number 198 is given, rather
: implausibly, as the US government's current provisional estimate of the
: number of mutants left alive.
Well, it's not really an estimate. Rather, it's the exact number of those
confirmed as having retained their mutancy at the time Lazer wrote his memo and
launched his operation.
It's still an early figure, of course, so it may yet grow.
: - Ernst, whose "Cassandra Nova" origin story has suddenly reared its
: head again. Somebody's finally read the comics!
*whistle*
--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com
COMIKADO << http://comikado.blogspot.com
SUPERCRITICAL >> http://supercritic.blogspot.com
Down, in barrels!
--
[This is a Usenet message, posted to the rec.arts.comics.* groups.]
Brian Doyle
"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NrkVRGDU...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
> They're also in alphabetical order, so for those wanting a line-up
> that's easier to digest, the FILES confirms that the following
> characters are still mutants. Some of them are extremely random
> choices.
>
> X-MEN AND THEIR ALLIES:
> - Archangel,
So I wonder what that picture of him on the cover of the House of M follow
up book is about? Flashback to when he lost his wings perhaps?
> THE NEW MUTANTS AND OTHER STUDENTS:
> - Kid Omega
Once he's properly not dead,. I assume.
> SUPERVILLAINS:
> - Jamie Braddock
Is he a mutant again? I thought he was non-mutant metahuman thanks to his
Dad.
> - Mammomax from Exodus' Brotherhood
Oh joy.
> RANDOMS AND NONENTITIES:
> - Alchemy, the character from the "create a mutant" contest in the
> 1980s.
Yay! Always like Tom.
Colcannon Bacstai
"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NrkVRGDU...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
>> THE 198 FILES is basically a list of various characters who are still
>> mutants, with brief profiles.<<
I just flipped through the book, but I thought for SURE I saw Blob listed
there -- despite the fact he's depowered in Generation M.
Am I just dreaming?
Eric
> mutants, with brief profiles. The number 198 is given, rather
> implausibly, as the US government's current provisional estimate of the
> number of mutants left alive. That leaves the door open for the number to
> be raised, and in any event it's plainly inconsistent with other comics
> which claim it's a 90% reduction - the global population of mutants was
> obviously being written as more than 2000 before M-Day.
Actually, Paul, the explanation is provided that 198 was the government's
earliest confirmed estimate, not their current estimate. We're aware of the
discrepancies, and this was an effort to further clarify that, while still
leaving the door open.
> Nonetheless, this is clearly taken from Marvel's internal list of who's a
> mutant and who isn't.
Of course. Where else would it have come from? :)
As a side note, I'm surprised noone's mentioned the codes dotted through
various profiles
>Some of them are extremely random choices.
They may seem that way, but there's a method to Marvel's seemed madness.
> - Litterbug from the MORLOCKS series a few years back, which is apparently
> canon after all despite taking place in a dystopian world where Sentinels
> zap every mutant who steps above ground
It was confirmed as being canon by their inclusion in the X-Men Encyclopedia
a few year's back.
> - Vanguard and Ursa Major of the Soviet Super-Soldiers
Or the Winter Guard, as they're known nowadays.
> Shatterstar (if he's a mutant, and his entry expresses some doubt)
The reason for that, as mentioned on the intro page, is that the O*N*E's
General Lazer isn't a fan of parallel worlds and all that guff, which is why
mention of such things is limited throughout, and when it is mentioned it
has an air of doubt cast upon it.
It doesn't mean that any of this stuff has been retconned, though.
> - Big Bertha, Flatman and Squirrel Girl from the GLX. (No mention of the
> other two team members - Mr Immortal and Doorman - but on one view,
> current continuity has their powers deriving from Oblivion anyway.)
The reason for their omission is that Mr Immortal is a step above mutants,
and Doorman's an agent of Oblivion. Doesn't mean they're depowered, though.
Billy Bissette
> THE 198 FILES is basically a list of various characters who are still
> mutants, with brief profiles. The number 198 is given, rather
> implausibly, as the US government's current provisional estimate of
> the number of mutants left alive. That leaves the door open for the
> number to be raised, and in any event it's plainly inconsistent with
> other comics which claim it's a 90% reduction - the global population
> of mutants was obviously being written as more than 2000 before M-Day.
>
> On top of that, the FILES doesn't list all of the 198 characters. It
> lists 138 surviving mutants (132 profiles, but the Stepford Cuckoos
> count as three and the Collective Man as five). So omission from the
> FILES doesn't imply that a character has definitely lost his powers,
> since even the 198 figure is accurate, sixty mutants are missing.
So the number 198 has been ultimately rendered entirely meaningless
and pointless?
90% is still being used in some books, while others have said higher.
Regardless, the US government has to know mutants numbered far above
2000 before M-Day. And believing the new count is 198 without any
evidence? That would be more incompetent that the current real
administration.
And 198 isn't even the number of mutants listed. It isn't even
close, even without griping about things like Collective Man.
> Nonetheless, this is clearly taken from Marvel's internal list of
> who's a mutant and who isn't.
I'm getting the feeling that Marvel's internal list is fiction.
Rather, that someone at Marvel thought 198 was a nice dramatic
number to use, which both was very small but still allowed for
plenty of team books.
I'm getting the feeling that at no time did anyone at Marvel
actually work out who would and would not be mutants after M-Day.
Instead, just wanting one or more tokens on each team (amount
depending on how established and popular those teams were) and
a willingness to sacrifice anyone without current book prospects.
Such a thing would also explain the continued 90% claims,
that they never bothered to actually think things through far
enough for math to apply. Instead just picking numbers out of
thin air that they liked.
Billy Bissette
news:43bedc7b$0$15743$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
> Given that that arc is written by Peter Milligan, I'm guessing based
> on appearances that the thing Lorna saw is related to Doop in some
> fashion.
Doop was the first thing I thought of when I saw it.
Brian Doyle
"Eric" <x-...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:dGEvf.204318$V7.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Actually, Paul, the explanation is provided that 198 was the government's
> earliest confirmed estimate, not their current estimate.
That may be the "in story" reason, but it has to be said from a marketing
and "easily comprehensible for the readers" side of things, as a name for
the concept it's a complete non starter and actively irritating.
"We'll call it "The 198" even though it's immediately obvious that the
number has no bearing on anything to do with the concept."
Donnacha
"Colcannon Bacstai" <bipp...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:YQEvf.10728$oW....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
D.
Eric
mutants that assemble at Xavier's will be using the number as a symbol to
rally around in the X-Men: The 198 mini-series.
That, and if they didn't call it 198 they'd have to change the name of the
Office of National Emergency... O*N*E... One Nine Eight
;)
"Brian Doyle" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dpn782$e8r$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Eric
> there -- despite the fact he's depowered in Generation M.
>
> Am I just dreaming?
You probably got him mixed up with Big Bertha ;)
"Colcannon Bacstai" <bipp...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:YQEvf.10728$oW....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
Eric
> and pointless?
Nope... see my post above.
> 90% is still being used in some books, while others have said higher.
> Regardless, the US government has to know mutants numbered far above
> 2000 before M-Day. And believing the new count is 198 without any
> evidence? That would be more incompetent that the current real
> administration.
As it states in the intro page of the 198 Files, the number was an early
estimate only.
> And 198 isn't even the number of mutants listed. It isn't even
> close, even without griping about things like Collective Man.
It was never intended to be the final, definitive number of mutants
remaining.
> I'm getting the feeling that Marvel's internal list is fiction.
Given that I was involved in putting it together, I can confirm its a real
list.
> I'm getting the feeling that at no time did anyone at Marvel
> actually work out who would and would not be mutants after M-Day.
The list was worked out well in advance of House of M: The Day After.
"Billy Bissette" <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9743D1258A69...@207.217.125.201...
David Henry
"Paul O'Brien" <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NrkVRGDU...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
I can't say how upset I am that Danielle Moonstar (Mirage) was depowered.
Makes no sense whatsover as she is a major player in the X-universe. All I
can hope is that they have a different direction for her.
I also agree about your latter statement about having some characters be
depowered, but still functional. Rictor is a great example over in X-Factor.
Peter David worked that angle very well. Domino could easily have lost her
powers, and still have been just as deadly. She's just a poor-man's
Longshot, anyways.
I suppose the list can still grow. Magneto is obviously powerless, but we
have yet to find out Professor X's fate from House of M.
Dave
Donnacha
What genius had the idea of using dark blue text for the "hyperlinks" over a
black background?
D.
Nathan P. Mahney
news:4285r4F...@individual.net...
> Paul O'Brien wrote:
>
> : The number 198 is given, rather
> : implausibly, as the US government's current provisional estimate of the
> : number of mutants left alive.
>
> Well, it's not really an estimate. Rather, it's the exact number of those
> confirmed as having retained their mutancy at the time Lazer wrote his
memo and
> launched his operation.
>
> It's still an early figure, of course, so it may yet grow.
Aha, but check this out!
O*N*E....
198...
One Nine Eight...
Coincidence?
Nathan P. Mahney
news:wKGdnR2Hi4q...@comcast.com...
>
> "Paul O'Brien" <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:NrkVRGDU...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
>
>
>
> Makes no sense whatsover as she is a major player in the X-universe. All I
> can hope is that they have a different direction for her.
Symbolically, with the whole Valkyrie thing, she'd make a good Death for the
Horsemen of Apocalypse.
Nathan P. Mahney
>
> > I'm getting the feeling that at no time did anyone at Marvel
> > actually work out who would and would not be mutants after M-Day.
>
> The list was worked out well in advance of House of
> M: The Day After.
>
Is it within your power to confirm whether or not Marvel have plans for all
the characters in the book? Because if they do, that's cool.
Brian Doyle
> The number 198 has more significance than that, though. The surviving
> mutants that assemble at Xavier's will be using the number as a symbol to
> rally around in the X-Men: The 198 mini-series.
But why? It has nothing to do with their reality. It'd be like consistently
referring to World War II as "The Invasion of Poland" by the time 1943 came
around. If something like that is QUITE so grossly innacurate it tends to
get supplanted. (GRIDS to AIDS, for example. Using a number is always going
to be risky)
> That, and if they didn't call it 198 they'd have to change the name of the
> Office of National Emergency... O*N*E... One Nine Eight
>
> ;)
Sorry, that's cute and all, but not cute enough to excuse it.
KMB
news:NrkVRGDU...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
> head again. Somebody's finally read the comics!
I thought she was supposed to have super strength. Wasn't that mentioned
during Morrison's run?
Paul O'Brien
<Dersc...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>: - Ernst, whose "Cassandra Nova" origin story has suddenly reared its
>: head again. Somebody's finally read the comics!
>
>*whistle*
For those who may not be aware, Marc-Oliver co-wrote THE 198 FILES.
Paul O'Brien
<x-...@bigpond.net.au> writes
>
>The reason for that, as mentioned on the intro page, is that the
>O*N*E's General Lazer isn't a fan of parallel worlds and all that guff,
>which is why mention of such things is limited throughout, and when it
>is mentioned it has an air of doubt cast upon it.
Yes, but more to the point, if we're going with Shatterstar's original
origin story then he's a bio-engineered alien and wasn't a mutant in the
first place. So the question of M-Day only arises at all if you assume
the Benjamin Russell stuff means... well, something... and even then,
it's always been thoroughly unclear what that story was supposed to be
doing.
Paul O'Brien
Bissette <bai...@coastalnet.com> writes
>
> I'm getting the feeling that at no time did anyone at Marvel actually
>work out who would and would not be mutants after M-Day.
Quesada has insisted in interviews that there is indeed a list. I'm
sure there must be some very minor one-off villains on whom no line has
been taken, but they don't really matter anyway.
Paul O'Brien
<43bf8cd1$0$15758$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, Nathan
P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Is it within your power to confirm whether or not Marvel have plans for
>all the characters in the book? Because if they do, that's cool.
To be fair, if I was making up the list, I'd have been sure to throw in
some nobodies as well. Otherwise you lose what little sense of
randomness there is.
Paul O'Brien
<editor...@sortedmagazine.com> writes
>One question, Eric -
>What genius had the idea of using dark blue text for the "hyperlinks"
>over a black background?
The credited designer is Meghan Kerns. To be fair, I'm sure it must
have been more legible at the design stage, but even then I can't work
out why you'd use a dark colour on black for highlights.
Paul O'Brien
<43bf8d35$0$15748$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, Nathan
P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Symbolically, with the whole Valkyrie thing, she'd make a good Death
>for the Horsemen of Apocalypse.
Dani doesn't have the Valkyrie powers any more, besides which, Asgard no
longer exists.
Eric
well into print.
"Donnacha" <editor...@sortedmagazine.com> wrote in message
news:43bf8c1e$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
Paul O'Brien
<nor...@comcast.net> writes
>
>I thought she was supposed to have super strength. Wasn't that
>mentioned during Morrison's run?
Yup, it's in a caption somewhere.
Paul O'Brien
<x-...@bigpond.net.au> writes
>
>That, and if they didn't call it 198 they'd have to change the name of
>the Office of National Emergency... O*N*E... One Nine Eight
I do hope that's not really intended to be any sort of plot point.
Because ONE was set up *before* M-Day, in which case the people who
named it would have to be psychic.
Ben P
Eric <x-...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>
> > - Litterbug from the MORLOCKS series a few years back, which is
apparently
> > canon after all despite taking place in a dystopian world where
Sentinels
> > zap every mutant who steps above ground
>
> It was confirmed as being canon by their inclusion in the X-Men
Encyclopedia
> a few year's back.
>
Not to denigrate the X-Men Encyclopedia, but I thought the rule was that
anything in handbook-style things isn't definitely canon until it's been
confirmed in an actual comic?
>
> > - Big Bertha, Flatman and Squirrel Girl from the GLX. (No mention of
the
> > other two team members - Mr Immortal and Doorman - but on one view,
> > current continuity has their powers deriving from Oblivion anyway.)
>
> The reason for their omission is that Mr Immortal is a step above mutants,
> and Doorman's an agent of Oblivion. Doesn't mean they're depowered,
though.
>
Although Deathurge told Mr Immortal that he was homo supreme, and he
mentioned it to his teammates (who just think he's insane), how would the
government be so confident that he doesn't technically count as a mutant
that they would leave him out of their files? I don't mind the files listing
the real names of mutants with secret identities, like Big Bertha, because
there are obviously ways they could know it, but if Shatterstar gets into
the 198 Files, why wouldn't Mr I?
Ben P
Paul O'Brien <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote
> - Wolf Cub, the boy from the Dominant Species arc
>
That's good to see - he's still destined to do something hugely important in
the future, after all.
> - The Collective Man, national superhero of China
Nice to see he's still showing no ill-effects from his death in the Citizen
V miniseries.
Brian Doyle
> In message
> <43bf8d35$0$15748$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, Nathan
> P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> writes
> >
> >Symbolically, with the whole Valkyrie thing, she'd make a good Death
> >for the Horsemen of Apocalypse.
>
> Dani doesn't have the Valkyrie powers any more,
I thought there was residual traces, or did she duck out of the seance that
actually seemed to work.
> besides which, Asgard no longer exists.
So she's a chooser of the dead whose power is dead and the source of whose
power is dead. Short of dead family what else does she need to be perfect?
Brian Doyle
> In message <0GHvf.205520$V7.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Eric
> <x-...@bigpond.net.au> writes
> >
> >That, and if they didn't call it 198 they'd have to change the name of
> >the Office of National Emergency... O*N*E... One Nine Eight
>
> I do hope that's not really intended to be any sort of plot point.
> Because ONE was set up *before* M-Day, in which case the people who
> named it would have to be psychic.
Which would actually be quite delightfully ironic if they were when they
came up with it, but not when the reason for it's name/mission became
relevant.
"Bet you didn't see THAT coming!"
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: Yes, but more to the point, if we're going with Shatterstar's original
: origin story then he's a bio-engineered alien and wasn't a mutant in the
: first place. So the question of M-Day only arises at all if you assume
: the Benjamin Russell stuff means... well, something... and even then,
: it's always been thoroughly unclear what that story was supposed to be
: doing.
That's certainly correct, but bear in mind that the files are meant to have
initially come from S.H.I.E.L.D. and the C.S.A., who, in turn, likely obtained
their information through all kinds of other sources, ranging from the Avengers
and the X-Men to the C.I.A., the F.B.I. and the like, before the files were
transferred to the Office of National Emergency in the wake of M-Day, after
which the good General Lazer advised his people to do rewrites on some of the
more dubious passages.
The point of this ludicrous set-up, of course, is to provide enough wiggle room
to make the inevitable implausibilities you're going to run into attributable to
inter-agency rivalry, eccentric superiors and the like.
For what it's worth, the question whether characters like Shatterstar, Ernst or
Random can even be considered mutants was discussed, though.
--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com
COMIKADO << http://comikado.blogspot.com
SUPERCRITICAL >> http://supercritic.blogspot.com
Down, in barrels!
--
[This is a Usenet message, posted to the rec.arts.comics.* groups.]
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: >I thought she was supposed to have super strength. Wasn't that
: >mentioned during Morrison's run?
:
: Yup, it's in a caption somewhere.
The recap page gave Ernst's mutant power as "super strength" at one point, yes.
Given that the canonicity of these pages is doubtful at best and that the
question of her supposed mutation never came up in an actual story, the most
sensible approach seemed to be to leave it ambiguous, though.
Eric
> anything in handbook-style things isn't definitely canon until it's been
> confirmed in an actual comic?
Nope. They're Marvel's official guides, and as such are considered canon.
> Although Deathurge told Mr Immortal that he was homo supreme, and he
> mentioned it to his teammates (who just think he's insane), how would the
> government be so confident that he doesn't technically count as a mutant
> that they would leave him out of their files?
They didn't necessarily leave him out of the files; you just haven't seen
the file they have on him :)
(BTW, that's what I meant by omission - not left off the list, but left out
of this initial database listing)
"Ben P" <b...@p.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GHPvf.30876$q4.2...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
Eric
> Citizen
> V miniseries.
He returned whole and hearty in Austen's brief X-Men run, though no
explanation was given for his return.
"Ben P" <b...@p.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nLPvf.30880$q4....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
Fallen
>The reason for their omission is that Mr Immortal is a step above mutants,
>
>
What does that mean?
Fallen.
Fallen
>Paul O'Brien wrote:
>
>: Yes, but more to the point, if we're going with Shatterstar's original
>: origin story then he's a bio-engineered alien and wasn't a mutant in the
>: first place. So the question of M-Day only arises at all if you assume
>: the Benjamin Russell stuff means... well, something... and even then,
>: it's always been thoroughly unclear what that story was supposed to be
>: doing.
>
>That's certainly correct, but bear in mind that the files are meant to have
>initially come from S.H.I.E.L.D. and the C.S.A., who, in turn, likely obtained
>their information through all kinds of other sources, ranging from the Avengers
>and the X-Men to the C.I.A., the F.B.I. and the like, before the files were
>transferred to the Office of National Emergency in the wake of M-Day, after
>which the good General Lazer advised his people to do rewrites on some of the
>more dubious passages.
>
>The point of this ludicrous set-up, of course, is to provide enough wiggle room
>to make the inevitable implausibilities you're going to run into attributable to
>inter-agency rivalry, eccentric superiors and the like.
>
>For what it's worth, the question whether characters like Shatterstar, Ernst or
>Random can even be considered mutants was discussed, though.
>
>
>
So basically the files are pretty worthless then? :)
Fallen.
Fallen
>>Not to denigrate the X-Men Encyclopedia, but I thought the rule was that
>>anything in handbook-style things isn't definitely canon until it's been
>>confirmed in an actual comic?
>>
>>
>
>Nope. They're Marvel's official guides, and as such are considered canon.
>
>
Wait a minute. The 'official handbooks' are canon? They regularly
contain utter crap though? When did this happen?
>>Although Deathurge told Mr Immortal that he was homo supreme, and he
>>mentioned it to his teammates (who just think he's insane), how would the
>>government be so confident that he doesn't technically count as a mutant
>>that they would leave him out of their files?
>>
>>
>
>They didn't necessarily leave him out of the files; you just haven't seen
>the file they have on him :)
>
>(BTW, that's what I meant by omission - not left off the list, but left out
>of this initial database listing)
>
I.e. "less than the 198 was listed because of the absolute surety that
there would be many screw-ups, retcons and idiocies in this storyline".
Not that 198 meant anything at all anyway.
Fallen.
Fallen
>> I'm getting the feeling that Marvel's internal list is fiction.
>>
>>
>
>Given that I was involved in putting it together, I can confirm its a real
>list.
>
>
>> I'm getting the feeling that at no time did anyone at Marvel
>>actually work out who would and would not be mutants after M-Day.
>>
>>
>
>The list was worked out well in advance of House of M: The Day After.
>
Frankly, I don't believe you. There is no definitive list of who's still
a mutant and who isn't and even a rough list will be completely ignored
whenever a writer feels like it.
Fallen.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: So basically the files are pretty worthless then? :)
Well, bearing in mind that the perspective of the material is meant to be
centered within the Marvel Universe, the information it contains isn't any more
or less reliable than any line of dialogue you'll find in a comic. Comes with
the territory.
Clem Clambake
news:lMvvosB7...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
> In message <43bf8c1e$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Donnacha
> <editor...@sortedmagazine.com> writes
>>One question, Eric -
>>What genius had the idea of using dark blue text for the "hyperlinks" over
>>a black background?
>
> The credited designer is Meghan Kerns. To be fair, I'm sure it must have
> been more legible at the design stage, but even then I can't work out why
> you'd use a dark colour on black for highlights.
I'd like to kick her in the butt.
Fallen
>Fallen wrote:
>
>: So basically the files are pretty worthless then? :)
>
>Well, bearing in mind that the perspective of the material is meant to be
>centered within the Marvel Universe, the information it contains isn't any more
>or less reliable than any line of dialogue you'll find in a comic. Comes with
>the territory.
>
>
>
Well sure but at least your normally get a story. I would think that
something like this would have to sell itself on at least being useful
and accurate.
It's called 198 files, doesn't have 198 mutants in it, the number 198
doesn't even mean anything at all, the mutants in it may or may not be
mutants and therefore the ones listed are inaccurate and as there's no
other number the fact that a mutant isn't in it doesn't remotely
indicate that they have been depowered.
That's a pretty useless book by any standard.
Fallen.
Christian Smith
<pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote
>Since I suspect many people will be more interested in the list than the
>actual profiles (or just can't be bothered squinting at the illegible
>dark-blue-on-black text):
Really glad it wasn't just me that had real problems reading the blue
on black text then!
There were several entries I can't read without a direct light over
the top because of this, you'd have thought a basic design knowledge
(and a look at the page!) would have told Marvel that it wasn't a good
combination
But I did enjoy the reminder of some of the key players and old faces
(Alchemy!) in it.
Christian
--
"The Dark Phoenix may have been a threat to all life in the universe...
But she had great taste in costumes." (Rachel Summers Excalibur #65)
Eric
It gives you a snapshot at the government's files on the mutants remaining
after M-Day, which include some information never revealed before (Bling's
and Onyxx's origins, for example). Plus you get to see how the government
perceive various characters by means of the threat levels.
It also clarifies what the O*N*E is, not to mention the meaning of the
number 198, plus it has profiles on O*N*E members like Val Cooper, General
Lazer, Jim Rhodes and the Sentinel Squad.
Speaking as a fan, that seems pretty useful info to me.
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:oMWvf.2141$s65....@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Eric
Well, that's not my problem :) I contributed to the list, so it definitely
exists, and I was working on it well before HoM: Day After came out.
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:NyQvf.30918$q4....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
Eric
>>
> Wait a minute. The 'official handbooks' are canon? They regularly contain
> utter crap though? When did this happen?
From one of my fellow Handbook writers in response to your comment...
First, they've always been canon, since the original series. Read Mark
Gruenwald's notes about how the put the entries together in the Deluxe
series, and you'll see that. He was proud that the Handbooks introduced
new information in the profiles, for the first time anywhere, and noted
that they were Marvel's official word on the characters.
Second, if you are going to be so derogatory about the hard work of a
large number of people "They regularly contain utter crap", then I'd
like to see you justify that inflammatory statement by backing it up
with real examples. Otherwise you just come across like a troll.
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:jxQvf.30916$q4....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
Brian Doyle
"Eric" <x-...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:3EYvf.209129$V7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> It gives you a snapshot at the government's files on the mutants remaining
> after M-Day,
Speculative, incomplete and potentially misleading though that is.
> which include some information never revealed before (Bling's
> and Onyxx's origins, for example).
Two really minor characters whose origins it strikes me, might be better
served featuring in, oh I dunno, the title they appear in as background
character material.
> It also clarifies what the O*N*E is,
Except it existed before the event that apparently defines it.
> not to mention the meaning of the number 198,
Yes, it's a number which has no bearing on anything. It's not the number of
mutants either active, in the USA, or even on the assorted files. Why on
earth decide to use, and continue to use, a specific number when it's
blindingly obvious it's
inaccurate as soon as it started to be used. Call them "The Survivors", "The
Remaining", hell, call them the "The Leftovers" but, frankly, whoever
decided that using the name 198 was a good idea seems to have been
> Speaking as a fan, that seems pretty useful info to me.
Speaking as a fan, I'm glad I didn't fork out money for this.
Fallen
>>>Nope. They're Marvel's official guides, and as such are considered canon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Wait a minute. The 'official handbooks' are canon? They regularly contain
>>utter crap though? When did this happen?
>>
>>
>
>From one of my fellow Handbook writers in response to your comment...
>
>First, they've always been canon, since the original series. Read Mark
>Gruenwald's notes about how the put the entries together in the Deluxe
>series, and you'll see that. He was proud that the Handbooks introduced
>new information in the profiles, for the first time anywhere, and noted
>that they were Marvel's official word on the characters.
>
>Second, if you are going to be so derogatory about the hard work of a
>large number of people "They regularly contain utter crap", then I'd
>like to see you justify that inflammatory statement by backing it up
>with real examples. Otherwise you just come across like a troll.
>
Every single time they make something up that hasn't been in a comic,
it's crap. I don't want a bunch of fans making stuff up that Marvel will
merrily ignore (far more quickly than they'd ignore a real writers work
and that's pretty fast as it is) and only print because it's cheaper
than making real comics.
What's Cyclops' power again?
Fallen.
Fallen
>>That's a pretty useless book by any standard.
>>
>>
>
>It gives you a snapshot at the government's files on the mutants remaining
>after M-Day,
>
Useless as they are incomplete, inaccurate and from a characters point
of view but not any character we care about or in a comic we buy.
>which include some information never revealed before (Bling's
>and Onyxx's origins, for example).
>
Not really something I'd have brought up as a plus point. Or a point
that anyone would ever care about.
>Plus you get to see how the government perceive various characters by means of the threat levels.
>
>
No I don't. I get to see how a couple of people think some made up
government employees that I don't care at all about view various
characters.
>It also clarifies what the O*N*E is,
>
I already knew that, it's being showcased in a real comic.
>not to mention the meaning of the number 198,
>
That it has none, you mean?
>plus it has profiles on O*N*E members like Val Cooper, General Lazer, Jim Rhodes and the Sentinel Squad.
>
>
This 'and' the origins of Bling and Onyxx?
>Speaking as a fan, that seems pretty useful info to me.
>
I'm gonna go with 'bias' and leave it at that.
Fallen.
Fallen
>>Frankly, I don't believe you.
>>
>>
>
>Well, that's not my problem :) I contributed to the list, so it definitely
>exists, and I was working on it well before HoM: Day After came out.
>
I have no reply to this, I just thought this would be a good place to
ask you to learn how to post quotes to usenet properly.
Fallen.
Brian Doyle
> Eric wrote:
>
> Every single time they make something up that hasn't been in a comic,
> it's crap.
Not true. Often it's not made up, it's from the writers themselves, they
just haven't found the opportunity to go into as much detail in the comic as
they could here. Look at the likes of the original Hellions backstories in
OHOTMUDE, AFAIK they came from Claremont, but whilst hints had been dropped
about some of them in the New Mutants title, this went into a lot more
detail, and none of it was ever disavowed.
Fallen
My apologies, I was talking of recent times. I should have been more
specific. I never really read the handbooks when I was younger, I
glanced at a friends copies and they didn't interest me. It's only in
the days of scans and try before you buy that I look at a lot more stuff.
Although I was led to believe the Cyclops thing goes back a while?
Fallen.
Eric
> crap. I don't want a bunch of fans making stuff up that Marvel will
> merrily ignore (far more quickly than they'd ignore a real writers work
> and that's pretty fast as it is) and only print because it's cheaper than
> making real comics.
So you ignore anything made up by Bendis? Claremont? Hudlin? Whedon?
They're all fans, but they're also Marvel writers. Just like myself and my
fellow Handbook writers.
(And no, I'm not saying we're of the same caliber as those I mentioned
above. I'm just trying to make the point that yes, we're fans, but we're
also paid Marvel writers, as real as any other paid writer.)
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ALZvf.2175$s65...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Eric
> just haven't found the opportunity to go into as much detail in the comic
> as
> they could here. Look at the likes of the original Hellions backstories in
> OHOTMUDE, AFAIK they came from Claremont, but whilst hints had been
> dropped
> about some of them in the New Mutants title, this went into a lot more
> detail, and none of it was ever disavowed.
Peter Milligan provided the origins for Bling and Onyxx. John Layman
provided background info for the Sentinel Squad. Joss Whedon gave us info on
Blindfold and Hisako. David Hine gave us Jazz's background.
Guess they must not be real writers either, according to Fallen's
definition.
"Brian Doyle" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dppr7m$c78$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Eric
> you to learn how to post quotes to usenet properly.
Picky, much?
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:AQZvf.2178$s65....@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Fallen
>>Every single time they make something up that hasn't been in a comic, it's
>>crap. I don't want a bunch of fans making stuff up that Marvel will
>>merrily ignore (far more quickly than they'd ignore a real writers work
>>and that's pretty fast as it is) and only print because it's cheaper than
>>making real comics.
>>
>>
>So you ignore anything made up by Bendis? Claremont? Hudlin? Whedon?
>
>They're all fans, but they're also Marvel writers. Just like myself and my
>fellow Handbook writers.
>
>(And no, I'm not saying we're of the same caliber as those I mentioned
>above. I'm just trying to make the point that yes, we're fans, but we're
>also paid Marvel writers, as real as any other paid writer.)
>
So is the office boy who writes blurbs for the upcoming comics. I'm a
paid writer too but I don't call myself an author when someone asks my
profession.
And none of this makes the 198 files remotely useful or anything more
than a rather poor cash in not even up to the standard of a regular
handbook.
Fallen.
Fallen
>>Not true. Often it's not made up, it's from the writers themselves, they
>>just haven't found the opportunity to go into as much detail in the comic
>>as they could here. Look at the likes of the original Hellions backstories in
>>OHOTMUDE, AFAIK they came from Claremont, but whilst hints had been
>>dropped about some of them in the New Mutants title, this went into a lot more
>>detail, and none of it was ever disavowed.
>>
>>
>
>Peter Milligan provided the origins for Bling and Onyxx. John Layman
>provided background info for the Sentinel Squad. Joss Whedon gave us info on
>Blindfold and Hisako. David Hine gave us Jazz's background.
>
>Guess they must not be real writers either, according to Fallen's
>definition.
>
Which definition of writer would that be?
Fallen.
Fallen
Down. Here.
Fallen.
Billy Bissette
>
> "Paul O'Brien" <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:CcVmMODS...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
>> In message
>> <43bf8d35$0$15748$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
>> Nathan P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> writes
>> >
>> >Symbolically, with the whole Valkyrie thing, she'd make a good Death
>> >for the Horsemen of Apocalypse.
>>
>> Dani doesn't have the Valkyrie powers any more,
>
> I thought there was residual traces, or did she duck out of the seance
> that actually seemed to work.
>
>> besides which, Asgard no longer exists.
>
> So she's a chooser of the dead whose power is dead and the source of
> whose power is dead. Short of dead family what else does she need to
> be perfect?
Dead?
Billy Bissette
> Marc-Oliver Frisch wrote:
>>The point of this ludicrous set-up, of course, is to provide enough
>>wiggle room to make the inevitable implausibilities you're going to
>>run into attributable to inter-agency rivalry, eccentric superiors and
>>the like.
>>
>>For what it's worth, the question whether characters like Shatterstar,
>>Ernst or Random can even be considered mutants was discussed, though.
>>
> So basically the files are pretty worthless then? :)
Well, let's wait and see how many future stories over the years
treat something incorrect from it as fact before we truly judge. :)
But while I can understand from an artistic standpoint, it is a bit
annoying that the first shot at detailing what was supposed to be
a pretty massive change to the status quo is intentionally flawed.
Then again, I've made my thoughts on Decimation before, that it
seems more clumsy than planned.
Billy Bissette
news:KPZvf.2177$s65....@newsfe1-win.ntli.net:
> Eric wrote:
>
>>which include some information never revealed before (Bling's
>>and Onyxx's origins, for example).
>>
> Not really something I'd have brought up as a plus point. Or a point
> that anyone would ever care about.
I didn't pay enough attention to be absolutely sure, but would those
be origins that are revealed in the files? The files that have
intentional errors, at least in part to build a basis for future
possible discrepancies?
Thus rendering the validity of any "new" information as questionable
at best?
So one of the benefits of the book are things like origins that might
not be accurate for characters almost no one cares about anyway?
Eric
> be origins that are revealed in the files? The files that have
> intentional errors, at least in part to build a basis for future
> possible discrepancies?
The 198 Files do not have intentional errors. Some information is omitted,
yes, but there is no information therein that is intentionally false.
"Billy Bissette" <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9744E2FC2605...@207.217.125.201...
Eric
"Every single time they make something up that hasn't been in a comic,
it's crap. I don't want a bunch of fans making stuff up that Marvel will
merrily ignore (far more quickly than they'd ignore a real writers work
and that's pretty fast as it is) and only print because it's cheaper
than making real comics."
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:XM_vf.70323$uR....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
Eric
> writer too but I don't call myself an author when someone asks my
> profession.
Well, when your name is listed as writer of a professional publication, I
think that's enough of a qualifier to be able to call yourself a writer.
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3M_vf.70322$uR....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
Dan McEwen
news:43bf8be4$0$15778$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
> Aha, but check this out!
>
> O*N*E....
>
> 198...
>
> One Nine Eight...
>
> Coincidence?
Wow. I never would have noticed that in a million years.
Dan McEwen
news:4285r4F...@individual.net:
> Paul O'Brien wrote:
>: - Ernst, whose "Cassandra Nova" origin story has suddenly reared its
>: head again. Somebody's finally read the comics!
>
> *whistle*
Benefits from Usenet readers who also write these handbooks things?
Dan McEwen
> "Paul O'Brien" <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:NrkVRGDU...@esoterica.demon.co.uk...
>> THE NEW MUTANTS AND OTHER STUDENTS:
>> - Kid Omega
>
> Once he's properly not dead,. I assume.
Isn't he just incorporeal? I thought it was pretty clear in Endsong
that he wasn't dead in any real sense. Plus, the 198 Files kind of
gives us a bit more to go on as to how he stuck around.
Dan McEwen
> In message <dGEvf.204318$V7.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Eric
> <x-...@bigpond.net.au> writes
>>
>>The reason for that, as mentioned on the intro page, is that the
>>O*N*E's General Lazer isn't a fan of parallel worlds and all that
>>guff, which is why mention of such things is limited throughout, and
>>when it is mentioned it has an air of doubt cast upon it.
>
> Yes, but more to the point, if we're going with Shatterstar's original
> origin story then he's a bio-engineered alien and wasn't a mutant in
> the first place. So the question of M-Day only arises at all if you
> assume the Benjamin Russell stuff means... well, something... and even
> then, it's always been thoroughly unclear what that story was supposed
> to be doing.
Well...back when Shatterstar first joined the New Mutants, or maybe just
after they became X-Force, Liefeld was telling us Shatterstar was a
mutant. But then, Warlock was a mutant in that era, too.
Eric
> after they became X-Force, Liefeld was telling us Shatterstar was a
> mutant. But then, Warlock was a mutant in that era, too.
Yeah, a mutant of his own race, IIRC.
Brian Doyle
"Dan McEwen" <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:42bfrrF...@individual.net...
Well, he "passed" on at the end of "Riot at Xaviers", and was seen as a
Phoenix, talking to Jean in the White Hot Room, so I kind of assumed he was
at least as dead as Jean, and he didn't return until the Phoenix Force did.
Oh well, never mind.
Brian Doyle
Warlock was a mutant in his people because he lacked the killer instinct and
had compassion.
That this was a mutation was pretty much confirmed when the mutant Chance
(whose power was to "double or nothing" other mutant powers) caused him to
be come blissed out and useless (doubled) or more aggressive (nothing).
Brian Doyle
> > So she's a chooser of the dead whose power is dead and the source of
> > whose power is dead. Short of dead family what else does she need to
> > be perfect?
>
> Dead?
:-)
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: Well sure but at least your normally get a story.
You don't normally get stories in reference books. You get reference.
The solicitation copy for THE 198 FILES makes it perfectly clear that it's a
reference book. It also makes it perfectly clear that the information it
contains is presented from an "unreliable" perspective, namely the Office of
National Emergency's perspective.
It's your prerogative not to find that worthwhile, of course. In that case,
don't buy it.
: It's called 198 files, doesn't have 198 mutants in it,
It has "bios on more than 100 mutants," as the solicitation copy says.
: the number 198
: doesn't even mean anything at all,
That's not correct. You learn that the 198 are the first officially confirmed
number of remaining mutants. You may not like it -- be my guest -- but that's
the meaning of the number. Mission accomplished.
: the mutants in it may or may not be
: mutants
I'm not sure what you mean. If they're in the book, that means they're mutants.
You can count on that.
As I said, we had some internal discussion about three of the characters, but it
was ultimately decided to consider them mutants -- either because Marvel
specifically wanted them to be (as in Ernst and Random's case) or because the
evidence in past stories was deemed sufficient (as in the case of Shatterstar,
who was merged with a character explicitly described as a mutant). So to all
intents and purposes, mutants is what they are.
And that was THREE characters out of 130, mind you. The rest weren't even
ambiguous.
: and therefore the ones listed are inaccurate
Again, I'm not following you.
: the fact that a mutant isn't in it doesn't remotely
: indicate that they have been depowered.
I certainly agree that the promotional side of "Decimation" could have been
handled less confusingly, given the different contexts Marvel are using the
number 198 in. But if you look at the solicitation copy of this particular
book, it did precisely what it set out to do.
: That's a pretty useless book by any standard.
Your choice. From what you say, though, it sounds more like your expectations
were unreasonable to begin with.
--
Marc-Oliver Frisch
POPP'D! >> http://poppd.blogspot.com
COMIKADO << http://comikado.blogspot.com
SUPERCRITICAL >> http://supercritic.blogspot.com
Down, in barrels!
--
[This is a Usenet message, posted to the rec.arts.comics.* groups.]
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: But while I can understand from an artistic standpoint, it is a bit
: annoying that the first shot at detailing what was supposed to be
: a pretty massive change to the status quo is intentionally flawed.
It's not.
Perhaps I expressed myself badly. The entries do not contain bogus information
that's intentionally flawed or misleading. Rather, the premise provided us with
a neat way of dealing with the implausibilities and contradictions which are
ALREADY THERE in the characters' backstories -- by analyzing and criticizing
them.
Shatterstar's origin just so happens not to make a lot of sense, for example.
We can't change that, but dealing with it from the perspective of a Marvel
Universe intelligence agency allows us to raise our eyebrows and cast doubt on
the parts which don't make sense.
Paul O'Brien
<b...@p.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>
>Not to denigrate the X-Men Encyclopedia, but I thought the rule was
>that anything in handbook-style things isn't definitely canon until
>it's been confirmed in an actual comic?
No, the official line has always been that anything in the HANDBOOK or
the INDEX is canon. It's Marvel's official statement on matters of
continuity.
Of course, the HANDBOOK and INDEX can be wrong, where they've simply
misread the earlier stories or omitted something in error. But that's
no different from the position with new stories. The HANDBOOK's
interpretation, assuming it's not an outright error, is right by
definition.
That said, Marvel seem to be a lot more blase about retconning material
from the HANDBOOK than material in stories (Jubilee's origin from the
1989 Update miniseries was canned in its entirety, for example). But
that doesn't alter the general rule that this is Marvel's official
statement of continuity.
--
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS - http://www.thexaxis.com
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
IF DESTROYED - http://ifdestroyed.blogspot.com
Paul O'Brien
<b...@p.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>
>Nice to see he's still showing no ill-effects from his death in the
>Citizen V miniseries.
Well, Chuck Austen already brought him back from that, so you can't
blame the HANDBOOK writers for that one.
Jeremy Henderson
<Dersc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>: the number 198
>: doesn't even mean anything at all,
>
>That's not correct. You learn that the 198 are the first officially confirmed
>number of remaining mutants. You may not like it -- be my guest -- but that's
>the meaning of the number. Mission accomplished.
In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina it was estimated that as many as
10,000 could be dead. When that number proved to be wildly inaccurate,
the usefulness of the figure ceased to exist.
So why in the Marvel Universe would people continue using an estimate
of "survivors" of a disaster that proved completely inaccurate? It's a
wholly useless number in terms of describing the event.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: So why in the Marvel Universe would people continue using an estimate
: of "survivors" of a disaster that proved completely inaccurate?
First up, the number 198 is not an estimate at all, but the earliest exact,
accurate number of those definitely confirmed as still being mutants. As it
says in the introduction.
With that in mind, you're complaining about a plot point in another book. If
you don't like the suggestion that the 198 decide to use the figure as a
symbolic description for their group, you'll have to take it up with David Hine.
It's his concept.
Personally, I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with it, at any rate. It's
as good a name for the group as any.
Brian Doyle
"Marc-Oliver Frisch" <Dersc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42cs7hF...@individual.net...
> Jeremy Henderson wrote:
>
> : So why in the Marvel Universe would people continue using an estimate
> : of "survivors" of a disaster that proved completely inaccurate?
>
> First up, the number 198 is not an estimate at all, but the earliest
exact,
> accurate number of those definitely confirmed as still being mutants. As
it
> says in the introduction.
Earliest yes, but basing your con
> With that in mind, you're complaining about a plot point in another book.
If
> you don't like the suggestion that the 198 decide to use the figure as a
> symbolic description for their group, you'll have to take it up with David
Hine.
> It's his concept.
It's certainly the concept I feel is silly, and I do hope at no point have I
critiqued anyone involved in it directly. However, I would indeed critique
it with David Hine given the opportunity, or at least want to hear a much
better rationale for it being called 198 than "It was a specific number
given to a generalised and as unquantified situation by a bureaucrat, and
despite being instantly proven to be wrong, everyone even those outside that
bureaucracy will be using with it, just _because_"
> Personally, I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with it, at any rate.
A specific number name for a group which isn't that number doesn't strike
you as being, at best, an eccentric choice? To borrow a quote from Kid Flash
on a recent Teen Titans episode; "If you're the Hive Five, why are there six
of you?"
> It's as good a name for the group as any.
There we have to differ, I'm afraid.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: A specific number name for a group which isn't that number doesn't strike
: you as being, at best, an eccentric choice?
Depending on the rationale behind the name, no, not necessarily. I don't recall
seeing any complaints about Frank Miller calling his graphic novel 300.
~consul
> The number 198 has more significance than that, though. The surviving
> mutants that assemble at Xavier's will be using the number as a symbol to
> rally around in the X-Men: The 198 mini-series.
> That, and if they didn't call it 198 they'd have to change the name of the
> Office of National Emergency... O*N*E... One Nine Eight
... shit, I didn't even make that nomeclature connection.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these
Trials, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
~consul
>>after M-Day,
> Speculative, incomplete and potentially misleading though that is.
You do know that this is an internal government document? It's probably on
iteration 4231.133 B.
Brian Doyle
> Brian Doyle wrote:
>
> : A specific number name for a group which isn't that number doesn't
strike
> : you as being, at best, an eccentric choice?
>
> Depending on the rationale behind the name, no, not necessarily. I don't
recall
> seeing any complaints about Frank Miller calling his graphic novel 300.
I've never read it, what's the reason for the name and the justification in
that case? And did he call it "THE 300"?
~consul
> Fallen wrote:
> : It's called 198 files, doesn't have 198 mutants in it,
> It has "bios on more than 100 mutants," as the solicitation copy says.
> : the number 198
> : doesn't even mean anything at all,
> That's not correct. You learn that the 198 are the first officially confirmed
> number of remaining mutants. You may not like it -- be my guest -- but that's
> the meaning of the number. Mission accomplished.
Think of it like how last years Tsunami was reported. Day one, we only had
reports of a couple of thousand. It was reported as such the first day. Day 2
and further, we learn more and more are dead. That doesn't mean that the first
reports of day one should be burned and wiped from the record. It's "DAY ONE".
You don't wait to report on any casualties until the very last count is done.
Or like the problems in the West Virginia miners. You should report the deaths
and survirors as they come, as you know it to be reported. If there is a
mistake, the next infodump will correct it.
~consul
> Jeremy Henderson wrote:
> : So why in the Marvel Universe would people continue using an estimate
> : of "survivors" of a disaster that proved completely inaccurate?
> First up, the number 198 is not an estimate at all, but the earliest exact,
> accurate number of those definitely confirmed as still being mutants. As it
> says in the introduction.
> With that in mind, you're complaining about a plot point in another book. If
> you don't like the suggestion that the 198 decide to use the figure as a
> symbolic description for their group, you'll have to take it up with David Hine.
> It's his concept.
> Personally, I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with it, at any rate. It's
> as good a name for the group as any.
I think it works as the title of a group, as it is the first official report,
flawed as it may be. Should we rename NAACP, because folks aren't to be called
Coloured People anymore?
Brian Doyle
"~consul" <con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in message
news:dprmt8$o1e$2...@gist.usc.edu...
> Brian Doyle wrote:
> > "Eric" <x-...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> >>It gives you a snapshot at the government's files on the mutants
remaining
> >>after M-Day,
> > Speculative, incomplete and potentially misleading though that is.
>
> You do know that this is an internal government document? It's probably on
> iteration 4231.133 B.
And "File 4231.133 B" would strike me as being a more plausible name for the
project, not as a rallying point I grant you, but I imagine they'd want to
self identify rather than use a clumsy and innacurate designation.
Billy Bissette
> First up, the number 198 is not an estimate at all, but the earliest
> exact, accurate number of those definitely confirmed as still being
> mutants. As it says in the introduction.
Wouldn't the earliest exact accurate number of those definitely
confirmed as still being mutants be something closer to 1 or 2?
I mean, if we are talking confirmed and not just guessed or assumed.
Sure, that number might rise pretty quick at first (or not) but
198 still comes off as an arbitrary inaccurate number. No one in
the Marvel government should have believed it to be anything close
to accurate, anymore than if I were to count the number of women
I see today and say that is the current confirmed number of women
in the world. (Though to be accurate, I should really be required
to give them a physical exam, to make sure they aren't faking it.)
And I admit I'm still annoyed that if it is going to be called
the 198, it should have 198... Might as well be accurate to the
reader, since the number is meaningless anyway. (After all, it
would have been no different if it had been the 170 or the 300.
It isn't a complete count, it is just a momentary snapshot of
what an unreliable government believed at one time to be
accurate through their own questionable methods of deduction.)
Billy Bissette
news:dprnj0$o7i$2...@gist.usc.edu:
> I think it works as the title of a group, as it is the first official
> report, flawed as it may be. Should we rename NAACP, because folks
> aren't to be called Coloured People anymore?
Hasn't it pretty much effectively been renamed to "NAACP"?
~consul
> ~consul <con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in
>>I think it works as the title of a group, as it is the first official
>>report, flawed as it may be. Should we rename NAACP, because folks
>>aren't to be called Coloured People anymore?
> Hasn't it pretty much effectively been renamed to "NAACP"?
Not as I know it. Whenever I hear the acronym on the news, I still hear the
speakers also say it outloud, like, "N Double A C P, National Association for
the Advancement of Coloured People."
Billy Bissette
news:dpruml$pg5$2...@gist.usc.edu:
> Billy Bissette wrote:
>> ~consul <con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in
>>>I think it works as the title of a group, as it is the first official
>>>report, flawed as it may be. Should we rename NAACP, because folks
>>>aren't to be called Coloured People anymore?
>> Hasn't it pretty much effectively been renamed to "NAACP"?
>
> Not as I know it. Whenever I hear the acronym on the news, I still
> hear the speakers also say it outloud, like, "N Double A C P, National
> Association for the Advancement of Coloured People."
Hrm, I almost only ever hear "N Double A C P," without mention of the
full meaning.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: Wouldn't the earliest exact accurate number of those definitely
: confirmed as still being mutants be something closer to 1 or 2?
It's the first official count. It's a fairly commonplace and straightforward
concept, really.
: Sure, that number might rise pretty quick at first (or not) but
: 198 still comes off as an arbitrary inaccurate number.
You're confusing "accurate" and "total." The number given is perfectly
accurate, for what it is. It's just not the total count yet, and there's no
reason for anyone in the Marvel Universe to expect it to be.
: ... anymore than if I were to count the number of women
: I see today and say that is the current confirmed number of women
: in the world.
That's a flawed analogy, since (a) you probably don't have anyone identified as
a woman under surveillance, and (b) there are many more women in the world than
mutants in the Marvel Universe, making it next to impossible to even attempt
such a thing.
I agree with you in so far as it's fairly confusing to make a big deal about the
number when it's not the final count, from a promotional point of view. Given
the alternatives, though, I'm not sure if they would have been preferable.
If Marvel were to hand out a complete list of every character who's meant to
still be a mutant, that would take a lot of potential away from upcoming
stories, and wouldn't leave them any wiggle room for adjustments whatsoever.
And if they were to give a set total number WITHOUT saying which characters are
still meant to be mutants, the fanbase wouldn't shut up about it until presented
with some sort of definite conclusion, which would defy the point of the whole
exercise.
The current way of handling it, on the other hand, enables you to tell stories
about one character at a time, and not be shackled by any definitive remit:
Since we don't know the TOTAL number of remaining mutants, there's no reason to
rush things, and they'll never run out of wiggle room.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
: I've never read it, what's the reason for the name and the justification in
: that case?
It's about the 300 Spartans who fought alongside the Greeks against the Persians
in the battle of Thermopylae, in spite of being vastly outnumbered.
Except when the famous final stand-off occurred, their number had presumably
already been decimated somewhat from the preceding confrontations, and in any
event they weren't the only ones still fighting, either.
For all intents and purposes, the "300 Spartans" have become ingrained in
culture, though, and whatever the actual number was -- even presuming it's
possible to determine -- probably makes for a title that's not quite as catchy
and recognizable.
~consul
> And if they were to give a set total number WITHOUT saying which characters are
> still meant to be mutants, the fanbase wouldn't shut up about it until presented
> with some sort of definite conclusion, which would defy the point of the whole
> exercise.
Like it has in this thread, where we have folks complaing that the omission,
intentional or not, of some mutants whereabouts or status is tatamount to the
missing tapes of Richard Nixon.
Brian Doyle
"Marc-Oliver Frisch" <Dersc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42dfeaF...@individual.net...
> You're confusing "accurate" and "total." The number given is perfectly
> accurate, for what it is. It's just not the total count yet, and there's
no
> reason for anyone in the Marvel Universe to expect it to be.
So why are we being told that this number will be the rallying point for the
mutants, and will be the name of a miniseries set, presumably, after someone
has realised that 90/95% is NOT 198 mutants.
> If Marvel were to hand out a complete list of every character who's meant
to
> still be a mutant, that would take a lot of potential away from upcoming
> stories, and wouldn't leave them any wiggle room for adjustments
whatsoever.
So don't publuish a list, just state that 90-95% have gone. This would have
beeen VASTLY helped by having any sort of major impact on the X-Men
themselves, except of course, we haven't had that.. The mostly barely-known
kids in school to one side, the only loss so far are the NOT terribly well
known Polaris, Moonstar (Who wasn't an active hero, but an advisor at the
school) and ummm.... Beak (and he only gets a lok in because he was a member
of the Exiles). Iceman didn't lose his powers, and the much suspected Angel
isn't either.
This is nearly as pointless as the "Great Mutant Massacre" which killed
precisely ONE Morlock who had ever appeared before, all the others were
created to be killed in the issue they debuted in.
Paul O'Brien
<Dersc...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>First up, the number 198 is not an estimate at all, but the earliest
>exact, accurate number of those definitely confirmed as still being
>mutants. As it says in the introduction.
Er, no, that's not what it says at all. It says "Our earliest confirmed
figures say that the current population of mutants left on this planet
is 198, meaning that we are still missing intel on a good many of them."
Whatever the intention may have been, the reading most people seem to be
putting on the phrase IS literally what it says. The only natural
reading of that sentence is that the US government believes there are
198 mutants total - the "missing" ones would be the sixty that aren't in
the book.
If Lazer simply meant that they'd found 198 mutants but the actual
number might be much higher, then he was expressing himself extremely
badly by using the words "the current population of mutants left on this
planet is 198."
Billy Bissette
> Billy Bissette wrote:
>
>: Wouldn't the earliest exact accurate number of those definitely
>: confirmed as still being mutants be something closer to 1 or 2?
>
> It's the first official count. It's a fairly commonplace and
> straightforward concept, really.
Why should it be the first official count? 198 is a fairly
impractical number. If the percentages given are even close to
right, then it is way short of what should be a real number. At the
same time, it arguably high to be the very first number of outright
confirmations.
Being the first official count sounds more like trying to justify
the number after the fact, once it was pointed out that the number
didn't really work in the context of the Marvel Universe.
Now, the number would make sense as the count of named mutants
on the Marvel office's list of named mutants that kept powers after
M-Day... But it doesn't so much work for what Marvel is trying to
present and promote it as within the Marvel universe itself.
>: Sure, that number might rise pretty quick at first (or not) but
>: 198 still comes off as an arbitrary inaccurate number.
>
> You're confusing "accurate" and "total." The number given is
> perfectly accurate, for what it is. It's just not the total count
> yet, and there's no reason for anyone in the Marvel Universe to expect
> it to be.
No, no confusion.
>: ... anymore than if I were to count the number of women
>: I see today and say that is the current confirmed number of women
>: in the world.
>
> That's a flawed analogy, since (a) you probably don't have anyone
> identified as a woman under surveillance, and (b) there are many more
> women in the world than mutants in the Marvel Universe, making it next
> to impossible to even attempt such a thing.
Not flawed for the purpose, which was to show the silliness of there
being any governmental importance to "The 198."
> If Marvel were to hand out a complete list of every character who's
> meant to still be a mutant, that would take a lot of potential away
> from upcoming stories, and wouldn't leave them any wiggle room for
> adjustments whatsoever.
Ah, but aren't they supposed to have a list of just that? The
list I had questioned in a prior post, only to be assured that it
really did exist?
If they really have their claimed master list, and they really intend
to stick to it as has also been claimed, then there shouldn't need to
be "wiggle room." Nor should it affect one version of story potential
(though it could impact other forms, primarily in the "is he still a
mutant" catagory like the bait and switch of Iceman.)
> And if they were to give a set total number WITHOUT saying which
> characters are still meant to be mutants, the fanbase wouldn't shut up
> about it until presented with some sort of definite conclusion, which
> would defy the point of the whole exercise.
Instead we get a number that doesn't match the number of characters,
thereby not giving any definite conclusion to even who the 198 are.
And since 198 isn't the real final number, there would be no definite
conclusion even if we had been given 198 names.
Without The 198, we'd still know the status of most currently
important characters through their various book appearances. (And that
most currently important characters made the cut anyway, being shown
to still have powers.) We'd know some powerless characters through
books (though Generation M Jubilee might as well be a new character.)
Sure, we wouldn't know some of the more obscure characters that
almost no one cares about that are mentioned in The 198, but almost
no one cares about them.
The 198 itself comes off as a cash grab, an incomplete Decimation
Handbook.