WTF???? (X-Men Forever Spoilers)
grinningdemon
picking up where he left off...because now he's rewriting shit that
happened before he even left the x-books...not only did Baby Nathan
not get sent into the future, but he has also aged a good 4-5 years
and has been living with Scott's grandparents (who seem to have gotten
a few decades younger...which should make Scott a teenager).
This book is such a steaming pile of disappointment...ten issues on
and the whole damn thing still seems to revolve almost entirely around
a character who DIED in #1...he even gets a SECOND funeral this issue
(because one just wasn't enough)...I'm honestly a little surprised
they're keeping it to a single issue instead of dragging it out for a
whole story arc...as usual, mischaracterization and retcons
abound...Kitty and Psylocke now apparently have a close sisterly bond
(even though they've only actually met a couple times prior to
this)...the whole Marvel Universe is for some strange reason treating
Jean as the grieving widow even though she and Wolverine were NEVER
TOGETHER...and Scott is so pathetic that he delivers the eulogy for
the guy he got dumped for and never liked to begin with...obviously,
this is not what Claremont would have written way back when and, if it
is, then I'm glad he left when he did.
Normally, I would be very happy to see Paul Smith return to the
X-Men...but why did it have to be for this garbage?
And yet I keep on reading...because I just can't look away from the
train wreck.
Painter
> So apparently Claremont has decided to drop even the pretense of
> picking up where he left off...because now he's rewriting shit that
> happened before he even left the x-books...not only did Baby Nathan
> not get sent into the future, but he has also aged a good 4-5 years
> and has been living with Scott's grandparents (who seem to have gotten
> a few decades younger...which should make Scott a teenager).
I doubt it's a case that Nathan never went into the future, it's that
he's back from the future. Instead of coming back as Old Man Cable,
he's back aged a few more years.
My pet theory: this Nathan is the same one Scott grew up with in the
orphanage, aka Mr. Sinister.
You *do* realize that the older man in that scene was Corsair, not his
grandfather? Looks like Corsair has a bit of grey at his temples. I
thought they both looked age approriate.
>
> This book is such a steaming pile of disappointment...ten issues on
> and the whole damn thing still seems to revolve almost entirely around
> a character who DIED in #1...he even gets a SECOND funeral this issue
> (because one just wasn't enough)...I'm honestly a little surprised
> they're keeping it to a single issue instead of dragging it out for a
> whole story arc...
They had a small ceremony at the end of issue 5, not a full funeral
with outside guests. Timeline wise, not much time has passed since
issue #1.
> as usual, mischaracterization and retcons
> abound...Kitty and Psylocke now apparently have a close sisterly bond
> (even though they've only actually met a couple times prior to
> this)...
Yeah, that was a little strange, with the whole mind-meld thing they did.
I liked the scene with 'Ro and Forge, and Bobby was great in all the
scenes he was in
>
> Normally, I would be very happy to see Paul Smith return to the
> X-Men...but why did it have to be for this garbage?
Unfortunately, I thought Smith was the worst part of the issues he did.
Very sketchy. I don't think I've ever seen his work inked by anyone
else but Wiacek. Was it Austin that made it look so sketchy in XMF?
>
> And yet I keep on reading...because I just can't look away from the
> train wreck.
It's because you really, really like it, but you're afraid of losing
face if you admit it on the internet. :)
I like this better than Fraction's take. At least XMF storylines won't
get run over by the next major crossover.
Art
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On 2009-10-28 22:29:46 -0400, grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> said:
>
>> So apparently Claremont has decided to drop even the pretense of
>> picking up where he left off...because now he's rewriting shit that
>> happened before he even left the x-books...not only did Baby Nathan
>> not get sent into the future, but he has also aged a good 4-5 years
>> and has been living with Scott's grandparents (who seem to have gotten
>> a few decades younger...which should make Scott a teenager).
>
>I doubt it's a case that Nathan never went into the future, it's that
>he's back from the future. Instead of coming back as Old Man Cable,
>he's back aged a few more years.
And how exactly could that work? X-Men Forever supposedly picked up
from X-Men #3...there was no time gap for Nathan to return and it
hasn't happened in the series itself.
>My pet theory: this Nathan is the same one Scott grew up with in the
>orphanage, aka Mr. Sinister.
Doubtful...because that would mean ther is a future plotline at work
here...and I doubt Cyclops will ever be seen in this book again...it's
fairly obvious that Claremont does not like the character anymore and
I figure he's just writing him out of the book here...it's not like
Scott has any reason to go back.
>You *do* realize that the older man in that scene was Corsair, not his
>grandfather? Looks like Corsair has a bit of grey at his temples. I
>thought they both looked age approriate.
It did look like Corsair...but I could swear that Scott called him
grandpa (I'd have to check)...and, if it is Corsair, then it's just
like Nathan returning from the future...when did he come back from
space?
>> This book is such a steaming pile of disappointment...ten issues on
>> and the whole damn thing still seems to revolve almost entirely around
>> a character who DIED in #1...he even gets a SECOND funeral this issue
>> (because one just wasn't enough)...I'm honestly a little surprised
>> they're keeping it to a single issue instead of dragging it out for a
>> whole story arc...
>They had a small ceremony at the end of issue 5, not a full funeral
>with outside guests. Timeline wise, not much time has passed since
>issue #1.
And that small ceremony was all that was needed...the advantage of
killing off Wolverine SHOULD be getting to tell stories without
him...instead, the book is still all about him...either because of the
retarded changes that have come about as a result of his death (full
of mischaracterization), his many funerals (there will probably be
another in a few issues), or the flashbacks to keep him in the
book...it's lame.
>> as usual, mischaracterization and retcons
>> abound...Kitty and Psylocke now apparently have a close sisterly bond
>> (even though they've only actually met a couple times prior to
>> this)...
>Yeah, that was a little strange, with the whole mind-meld thing they did.
>
>I liked the scene with 'Ro and Forge, and Bobby was great in all the
>scenes he was in
>
>>
>> Normally, I would be very happy to see Paul Smith return to the
>> X-Men...but why did it have to be for this garbage?
>
>Unfortunately, I thought Smith was the worst part of the issues he did.
> Very sketchy. I don't think I've ever seen his work inked by anyone
>else but Wiacek. Was it Austin that made it look so sketchy in XMF?
I still liked his art in the book...the only thing I liked about it.
>> And yet I keep on reading...because I just can't look away from the
>> train wreck.
>
>It's because you really, really like it, but you're afraid of losing
>face if you admit it on the internet. :)
No...I think the train wreck analogy covers it pretty well.
>I like this better than Fraction's take. At least XMF storylines won't
>get run over by the next major crossover.
If they did, it could only be an improvement...and, so far, the only
major crossovers involving Fraction's take have been written by
Fraction himself, os it's hard to say it's running over the
storylines.
The period when X-Men Forever takes place is when I first started
reading the x-books so I am particularly fond of it...when the book
was first announced, I was actually looking forward to it, but
Claremont has clearly lost not only his talent but all understanding
of these characters...which is particularly sad since he created most
of them (or might as well have)...I just can't believe this is the
same guy that wrote the Phoenix Saga...it's like he's shitting on my
childhood.
I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
returns and the book gets even worse.
YKW (ad hoc)
news:s9qje59fgmcriln64...@4ax.com:
>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:58 -0400, Painter <arthur....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2009-10-28 22:29:46 -0400, grinningdemon
>><grinni...@austin.rr.com> said:
>>
>>> So apparently Claremont has decided to drop even the pretense of
>>> picking up where he left off...because now he's rewriting shit that
>>> happened before he even left the x-books...not only did Baby Nathan
>>> not get sent into the future, but he has also aged a good 4-5 years
>>> and has been living with Scott's grandparents (who seem to have
>>> gotten a few decades younger...which should make Scott a teenager).
>>
>>I doubt it's a case that Nathan never went into the future, it's that
>>he's back from the future. Instead of coming back as Old Man Cable,
>>he's back aged a few more years.
>
> And how exactly could that work? X-Men Forever supposedly picked up
> from X-Men #3...there was no time gap for Nathan to return and it
> hasn't happened in the series itself.
I imagine we'll be seeing all this covered in the next few issues as this
obvious Cyclops subplot plays out.
>>My pet theory: this Nathan is the same one Scott grew up with in the
>>orphanage, aka Mr. Sinister.
>
> Doubtful...because that would mean ther is a future plotline at work
> here...and I doubt Cyclops will ever be seen in this book again...it's
> fairly obvious that Claremont does not like the character anymore and
> I figure he's just writing him out of the book here...it's not like
> Scott has any reason to go back.
With the research that Xavier's thrown himself into, along with Ororo's
problems and Jean's distractedness, Scott seems fully aware he'll need to
return in short order (lest the X-Men be lead by Blind Sabertooth and/or
Killer Shadowcat). The Alaska trip is meant to be just a spot of R&R.
>>You *do* realize that the older man in that scene was Corsair, not his
>>grandfather? Looks like Corsair has a bit of grey at his temples. I
>>thought they both looked age approriate.
>
> It did look like Corsair...but I could swear that Scott called him
> grandpa (I'd have to check)...and, if it is Corsair, then it's just
> like Nathan returning from the future...when did he come back from
> space?
I expect the references that seem out of place were a bit of play
intended for Nathan's ears. My sister and mom becomes "Mom" and
"Grammie" whenever I address them with my nieces around -- unless it's
adult business, when I adress them from my frame of reference.
>>> This book is such a steaming pile of disappointment...ten issues on
>>> and the whole damn thing still seems to revolve almost entirely
>>> around a character who DIED in #1...he even gets a SECOND funeral
>>> this issue (because one just wasn't enough)...I'm honestly a little
>>> surprised they're keeping it to a single issue instead of dragging
>>> it out for a whole story arc...
>>They had a small ceremony at the end of issue 5, not a full funeral
>>with outside guests. Timeline wise, not much time has passed since
>>issue #1.
>
> And that small ceremony was all that was needed...the advantage of
> killing off Wolverine SHOULD be getting to tell stories without
> him...instead, the book is still all about him...either because of the
> retarded changes that have come about as a result of his death (full
> of mischaracterization), his many funerals (there will probably be
> another in a few issues), or the flashbacks to keep him in the
> book...it's lame.
If anything, that service should have been much =larger=. As Scott's
narration points out, the man knew =everyone=.
>>> as usual, mischaracterization and retcons
>>> abound...Kitty and Psylocke now apparently have a close sisterly
>>> bond (even though they've only actually met a couple times prior to
>>> this)...
>>Yeah, that was a little strange, with the whole mind-meld thing they
>>did.
Never really read much EXCALIBUR (the Wisdom thing still makes me puke),
but weren't they both there together for a fair chunk o' time?
>>I liked the scene with 'Ro and Forge, and Bobby was great in all the
>>scenes he was in
>>
>>>
>>> Normally, I would be very happy to see Paul Smith return to the
>>> X-Men...but why did it have to be for this garbage?
>>
>>Unfortunately, I thought Smith was the worst part of the issues he
>>did.
>> Very sketchy. I don't think I've ever seen his work inked by anyone
>>else but Wiacek. Was it Austin that made it look so sketchy in XMF?
>
> I still liked his art in the book...the only thing I liked about it.
Smith hasn't done much comic work in this century, while Austin has done
almost no superhero (or non-cartoony) inking in that same timeframe. I
suspect they're both more than a bit rusty. Still, it looks better than,
say, the climax of the Broodship story in Paul's first go-round with the
characters.
>>> And yet I keep on reading...because I just can't look away from the
>>> train wreck.
>>
>>It's because you really, really like it, but you're afraid of losing
>>face if you admit it on the internet. :)
>
> No...I think the train wreck analogy covers it pretty well.
I love it. But, then, I'm a sucker for ongoing alternate-universe titles.
>>I like this better than Fraction's take. At least XMF storylines
>>won't get run over by the next major crossover.
>
> If they did, it could only be an improvement...and, so far, the only
> major crossovers involving Fraction's take have been written by
> Fraction himself, os it's hard to say it's running over the
> storylines.
Wait until... what's it called... "Siege"...? I guarantee he wasn't in
the room when that was plotted, and I'll bet he only gets the notes that
pertain directly to his little portion of the event. (And he almost
certainly has Emma and Namor snatched from his control for the duration.)
> The period when X-Men Forever takes place is when I first started
> reading the x-books so I am particularly fond of it...when the book
> was first announced, I was actually looking forward to it, but
> Claremont has clearly lost not only his talent but all understanding
> of these characters...which is particularly sad since he created most
> of them (or might as well have)...I just can't believe this is the
> same guy that wrote the Phoenix Saga...it's like he's shitting on my
> childhood.
>
> I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
> returns and the book gets even worse.
>
Shush. The book's Wolverinelessness (breathe!) is one of its most
appealing aspects for many. I doubt Claremont went to all the trouble of
offing him only to bring him back any time soon -- especially with all of
the other plotlines he has to play with now.
--
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-- The One, 14 Oct 08
grinningdemon
<FluffyM...@foxnews.com> wrote:
>grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in
>news:s9qje59fgmcriln64...@4ax.com:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:58 -0400, Painter <arthur....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2009-10-28 22:29:46 -0400, grinningdemon
>>><grinni...@austin.rr.com> said:
>>>
>>>> So apparently Claremont has decided to drop even the pretense of
>>>> picking up where he left off...because now he's rewriting shit that
>>>> happened before he even left the x-books...not only did Baby Nathan
>>>> not get sent into the future, but he has also aged a good 4-5 years
>>>> and has been living with Scott's grandparents (who seem to have
>>>> gotten a few decades younger...which should make Scott a teenager).
>>>
>>>I doubt it's a case that Nathan never went into the future, it's that
>>>he's back from the future. Instead of coming back as Old Man Cable,
>>>he's back aged a few more years.
>>
>> And how exactly could that work? X-Men Forever supposedly picked up
>> from X-Men #3...there was no time gap for Nathan to return and it
>> hasn't happened in the series itself.
>
>I imagine we'll be seeing all this covered in the next few issues as this
>obvious Cyclops subplot plays out.
We'll see...but I seriously doubt it.
>>>My pet theory: this Nathan is the same one Scott grew up with in the
>>>orphanage, aka Mr. Sinister.
>>
>> Doubtful...because that would mean ther is a future plotline at work
>> here...and I doubt Cyclops will ever be seen in this book again...it's
>> fairly obvious that Claremont does not like the character anymore and
>> I figure he's just writing him out of the book here...it's not like
>> Scott has any reason to go back.
>
>With the research that Xavier's thrown himself into, along with Ororo's
>problems and Jean's distractedness, Scott seems fully aware he'll need to
>return in short order (lest the X-Men be lead by Blind Sabertooth and/or
>Killer Shadowcat). The Alaska trip is meant to be just a spot of R&R.
He left the door open for Scott's return...but I still think he's just
trying to get rid of him...Claremont has shown absolutely zero
interest in Cyclops since he returned to the x-books...I doubt that
will change here...his original plan for Scott was to have him ride
off into the sunset with Maddie and the baby...I figure this is just
the updated version of that.
>>>You *do* realize that the older man in that scene was Corsair, not his
>>>grandfather? Looks like Corsair has a bit of grey at his temples. I
>>>thought they both looked age approriate.
>>
>> It did look like Corsair...but I could swear that Scott called him
>> grandpa (I'd have to check)...and, if it is Corsair, then it's just
>> like Nathan returning from the future...when did he come back from
>> space?
>
>I expect the references that seem out of place were a bit of play
>intended for Nathan's ears. My sister and mom becomes "Mom" and
>"Grammie" whenever I address them with my nieces around -- unless it's
>adult business, when I adress them from my frame of reference.
Nathan was still in the house at that point, so it would be a little
weird if that were the case.
>>>> This book is such a steaming pile of disappointment...ten issues on
>>>> and the whole damn thing still seems to revolve almost entirely
>>>> around a character who DIED in #1...he even gets a SECOND funeral
>>>> this issue (because one just wasn't enough)...I'm honestly a little
>>>> surprised they're keeping it to a single issue instead of dragging
>>>> it out for a whole story arc...
>>>They had a small ceremony at the end of issue 5, not a full funeral
>>>with outside guests. Timeline wise, not much time has passed since
>>>issue #1.
>>
>> And that small ceremony was all that was needed...the advantage of
>> killing off Wolverine SHOULD be getting to tell stories without
>> him...instead, the book is still all about him...either because of the
>> retarded changes that have come about as a result of his death (full
>> of mischaracterization), his many funerals (there will probably be
>> another in a few issues), or the flashbacks to keep him in the
>> book...it's lame.
>
>If anything, that service should have been much =larger=. As Scott's
>narration points out, the man knew =everyone=.
Yes, he KNEW everyone...but a lot of those people never liked
him...and, actually, a lot of that retconned history came AFTER this
point in the timeline so, for the purposes of this book, he doesn't
know EVERYONE...just most of them...and, remember, this isn't the
first time Wolverine has "died"...he and the whole team of X-Men died
on national television at one point during Claremont's original
run...saving the world no less...and they STILL didn't get this kind
of fanfare...or this kind of reaction from the surviving x-characters
(Jean and Kitty, for instance)...yet another reason this book is
ridiculous.
>>>> as usual, mischaracterization and retcons
>>>> abound...Kitty and Psylocke now apparently have a close sisterly
>>>> bond (even though they've only actually met a couple times prior to
>>>> this)...
>>>Yeah, that was a little strange, with the whole mind-meld thing they
>>>did.
>
>Never really read much EXCALIBUR (the Wisdom thing still makes me puke),
>but weren't they both there together for a fair chunk o' time?
No...Psylocke was never a member of Excalibur...she visited a couple
times (because of her brother) but there was never any close
relationship with Kitty nor time to develop one...in fact, to this
date, I don't think they've ever been on the same team at the same
time...Kitty had already moved over to Excalibur by the time Psylocke
joined the X-Men and Betsy "died" shortly after Kitty returned to the
X-Men...and Kitty "died" before Betsy came back to the team.
And I loved Warren Ellis' Excalibur run with Pete Wisdom...I still
wish it would get reprinted.
>>>I liked the scene with 'Ro and Forge, and Bobby was great in all the
>>>scenes he was in
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Normally, I would be very happy to see Paul Smith return to the
>>>> X-Men...but why did it have to be for this garbage?
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, I thought Smith was the worst part of the issues he
>>>did.
>>> Very sketchy. I don't think I've ever seen his work inked by anyone
>>>else but Wiacek. Was it Austin that made it look so sketchy in XMF?
>>
>> I still liked his art in the book...the only thing I liked about it.
>
>Smith hasn't done much comic work in this century, while Austin has done
>almost no superhero (or non-cartoony) inking in that same timeframe. I
>suspect they're both more than a bit rusty. Still, it looks better than,
>say, the climax of the Broodship story in Paul's first go-round with the
>characters.
I really loved that run...back when Claremont could actually write
well and knew a little bit about characterization.
>>>> And yet I keep on reading...because I just can't look away from the
>>>> train wreck.
>>>
>>>It's because you really, really like it, but you're afraid of losing
>>>face if you admit it on the internet. :)
>>
>> No...I think the train wreck analogy covers it pretty well.
>
>I love it. But, then, I'm a sucker for ongoing alternate-universe titles.
Normally I like that kind of thing too...but I just can't stand this
book...it would probably be a lot better if Claremont weren't trying
so hard to distance it from the regular x-titles.
>>>I like this better than Fraction's take. At least XMF storylines
>>>won't get run over by the next major crossover.
>>
>> If they did, it could only be an improvement...and, so far, the only
>> major crossovers involving Fraction's take have been written by
>> Fraction himself, os it's hard to say it's running over the
>> storylines.
>
>Wait until... what's it called... "Siege"...? I guarantee he wasn't in
>the room when that was plotted, and I'll bet he only gets the notes that
>pertain directly to his little portion of the event. (And he almost
>certainly has Emma and Namor snatched from his control for the duration.)
I'm not sure why Emma or Namor would have anything to with the
Siege...they've both severed ties with Osborn and the Siege is about
an attack on Asgard (neither of them have any Asgard
connection)...that said, I highly doubt Namor will be sticking around
too long anyway.
>> The period when X-Men Forever takes place is when I first started
>> reading the x-books so I am particularly fond of it...when the book
>> was first announced, I was actually looking forward to it, but
>> Claremont has clearly lost not only his talent but all understanding
>> of these characters...which is particularly sad since he created most
>> of them (or might as well have)...I just can't believe this is the
>> same guy that wrote the Phoenix Saga...it's like he's shitting on my
>> childhood.
>>
>> I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
>> returns and the book gets even worse.
>
>Shush. The book's Wolverinelessness (breathe!) is one of its most
>appealing aspects for many. I doubt Claremont went to all the trouble of
>offing him only to bring him back any time soon -- especially with all of
>the other plotlines he has to play with now.
What Wolverinelessness? The guy's been gone for two story arcs and
has already returned in flashbacks and now gets a whole issue devoted
to singing his undeserved praises.
Furthermore, the only storyline we know for sure that Claremont wanted
to do before he left was killing Wolverine off to bring him back as an
assassin (temporarily)...and since the very first thing he did in this
book was kill off Wolverine, I'd say it's a pretty obvious clue about
what comes next...between that and the innevitable Phoenix retread, I
plan to vomit.
Painter
> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:58 -0400, Painter <arthur....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> And how exactly could that work? X-Men Forever supposedly picked up
> from X-Men #3...there was no time gap for Nathan to return and it
> hasn't happened in the series itself.
Well, Nathan's been back a "couple of weeks" at least, although that's
most likely a reference to when Scott last saw him, not when he arrived
from the future. As for when he actually came back, between the end of
the Muir Island Saga and X-Men # 1 would be my guess. Unlike you, I'm
sure we'll be visiting this plot again soon. I think the whole reason
for that little teaser is to come back to it.
Is there no patience for mystery anymore? Do you want all the details
laid out on first appearance?
>
> It did look like Corsair...but I could swear that Scott called him
> grandpa (I'd have to check)...and, if it is Corsair, then it's just
> like Nathan returning from the future...when did he come back from
> space?
Second to last page--
Scott: Hi Gramma. Hi Dad.
Corsair: Good flight, son?
Sounds like it's Scott's Grandmom and Dad to me.
The X-Men came back from space after saving the Shi'ar from the Skrulls
-- I imagine Corsair came back with them. With Lilandra back in
charge, I don't think there's any outstanding business keeping him out
in space.
>
> No...I think the train wreck analogy covers it pretty well.
As long as you keep buying it. That way I'll be able to enjoy it and
you'll be able to... well, enjoy it in your own sadomasochistic way.
>
> If they did, it could only be an improvement...and, so far, the only
> major crossovers involving Fraction's take have been written by
> Fraction himself, os it's hard to say it's running over the
> storylines.
House of M, M-day/Decimation, Manifest Destiny, Messiah Complex, Skrull
Invasion, Dark Reign, Nation X... (and there's more that I'm
missing)... every couple of months a new crossover comes along to
steamroll over everything.
> The period when X-Men Forever takes place is when I first started
> reading the x-books so I am particularly fond of it...when the book
> was first announced, I was actually looking forward to it, but
> Claremont has clearly lost not only his talent but all understanding
> of these characters...which is particularly sad since he created most
> of them (or might as well have)...I just can't believe this is the
> same guy that wrote the Phoenix Saga...it's like he's shitting on my
> childhood.
I started reading years before you (Uncanny 181) and I like the way the
book is moving along. I'm not crazy about everything (Kitty claw) but
I like it more than I don't.
Did you like the Lobdell/Nicienza runs on the book? I quit reading
after a year or two with them. I felt they were shitting on *my*
childhood, er, adolescense.
I'm not a died-in-the-wool Claremont fan -- I have no use for his
Exiles or Genext, and his X-Men: The End was too convoluted -- but I
like this project.
>
> I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
> returns and the book gets even worse.
So do I. I hope Wolverine never comes back in XMF. If I want to read
about Wolverine, I can pick up one of about 15 other books on the shelf.
A
Painter
>
> I expect the references that seem out of place were a bit of play
> intended for Nathan's ears. My sister and mom becomes "Mom" and
> "Grammie" whenever I address them with my nieces around -- unless it's
> adult business, when I adress them from my frame of reference.
The guy looks like Corsair and the woman looks older. Scott addresses
them as "Dad" and "Gramma", respectively, before Nate's around. I'm
pretty sure that's exactly who they're supposed to be.
>
> Never really read much EXCALIBUR (the Wisdom thing still makes me puke),
> but weren't they both there together for a fair chunk o' time?
??? I don't think Psylocke was ever a part of Excalibur. If she was,
it was well past the cut-off of XMF. Grin was right -- Kitty and
Elizabeth hadn't spent a whole lot of time together. Although, Betsy
was holding Kitty's mind together in the FF vs. X-Men LS after KItty
was wounded by the Marauders. I'm sure that helped form a bond between
them, but we hadn't seen them together much since then.
A
grinningdemon
<arthurxx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2009-10-29 15:31:27 -0400, grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> said:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:58 -0400, Painter <arthur....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> And how exactly could that work? X-Men Forever supposedly picked up
>> from X-Men #3...there was no time gap for Nathan to return and it
>> hasn't happened in the series itself.
>
>Well, Nathan's been back a "couple of weeks" at least, although that's
>most likely a reference to when Scott last saw him, not when he arrived
>from the future.
That was my impression.
As for when he actually came back, between the end of
>the Muir Island Saga and X-Men # 1 would be my guess. Unlike you, I'm
>sure we'll be visiting this plot again soon. I think the whole reason
>for that little teaser is to come back to it.
>Is there no patience for mystery anymore? Do you want all the details
>laid out on first appearance?
I have patience for mystery...but I know that Claremont does not like
Cyclops so I really don't see him forming major plotline around him.
>> It did look like Corsair...but I could swear that Scott called him
>> grandpa (I'd have to check)...and, if it is Corsair, then it's just
>> like Nathan returning from the future...when did he come back from
>> space?
>
>Second to last page--
>Scott: Hi Gramma. Hi Dad.
>Corsair: Good flight, son?
>
>Sounds like it's Scott's Grandmom and Dad to me.
I stand corrected...but it still feels disjointed to me.
>The X-Men came back from space after saving the Shi'ar from the Skrulls
>-- I imagine Corsair came back with them. With Lilandra back in
>charge, I don't think there's any outstanding business keeping him out
>in space.
>
>>
>> No...I think the train wreck analogy covers it pretty well.
>
>As long as you keep buying it. That way I'll be able to enjoy it and
>you'll be able to... well, enjoy it in your own sadomasochistic way.
Never said I was buying it...just thumbing through it in the
store...which is probably why I missed the Corsair appearance.
>> If they did, it could only be an improvement...and, so far, the only
>> major crossovers involving Fraction's take have been written by
>> Fraction himself, os it's hard to say it's running over the
>> storylines.
>
>House of M, M-day/Decimation, Manifest Destiny, Messiah Complex, Skrull
>Invasion, Dark Reign, Nation X... (and there's more that I'm
>missing)... every couple of months a new crossover comes along to
>steamroll over everything.
House of M/Decimation and Messiah Complex both came before Fraction's
run...and Manifest Destiny kicked it off (and wasn't even a
crossover)...Fraction seems to be the driving force behind the X-Men's
involvement in Dark Reign so it really doesn't seem to be interfering
with anything he was doing (he even wrote the parts of Dark Avengers
that crossed over with it) and Nation X is another of his own
storylines (and it isn't a crossover either).
>> The period when X-Men Forever takes place is when I first started
>> reading the x-books so I am particularly fond of it...when the book
>> was first announced, I was actually looking forward to it, but
>> Claremont has clearly lost not only his talent but all understanding
>> of these characters...which is particularly sad since he created most
>> of them (or might as well have)...I just can't believe this is the
>> same guy that wrote the Phoenix Saga...it's like he's shitting on my
>> childhood.
>
>I started reading years before you (Uncanny 181) and I like the way the
>book is moving along. I'm not crazy about everything (Kitty claw) but
>I like it more than I don't.
Oh, I've read pretty much every X-Men story at this point but the
early 90s is when I started...I never said it was my favorite era but
I am rather fond of it for that reason.
>Did you like the Lobdell/Nicienza runs on the book? I quit reading
>after a year or two with them. I felt they were shitting on *my*
>childhood, er, adolescense.
I actually liked most of their run...it was hit and miss but I liked
more than I didn't...I loved the Age of Apocalypse and even the
Onslaught storyline (until it piddled out at the end)...and I loved
Lobdell's short return to the x-books immediately before Morrison took
over (now THAT was a run that I HATED).
>I'm not a died-in-the-wool Claremont fan -- I have no use for his
>Exiles or Genext, and his X-Men: The End was too convoluted -- but I
>like this project.
To each his own...I didn't care for any of those books but none of
them bothered me the way this one does...some of his X-Treme X-Men and
more recent return to Uncanny was decent but, other than that, he
hasn't done any good x-work since he left the first time...and I
rather doubt he ever will again.
>> I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
>> returns and the book gets even worse.
>
>So do I. I hope Wolverine never comes back in XMF. If I want to read
>about Wolverine, I can pick up one of about 15 other books on the shelf.
You might as well prepare yourself then because you know he'll be
coming back.
grinningdemon
wrote:
The only time Psylocke could have ever possibly been considered a
member of Excalibur was in the Excalibur mini series that came a few
years after the original series ended...it was only 4 issues and,
while I don't remember much about it, I do remember Kitty wasn't in it
at all.
the_Bee
> >> I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
> >> returns and the book gets even worse.
>
> >So do I. I hope Wolverine never comes back in XMF. If I want to read
> >about Wolverine, I can pick up one of about 15 other books on the shelf.
>
> You might as well prepare yourself then because you know he'll be
> coming back.
I don't think so. Claremont recently said, "So, the whole point with
this was, especially with Forever: ok, if we can't do the Wolverine
getting killed and coming back as master assassin of the hand because
Mark Millar's already done that... Yeah, that's amazing, all the Brits
use the same plot line. You come off the boat, they give it to you
with their passport. “Here's a wolverine plot, go work for marvel
now.” So, the next best thing was, well, why don't we kill him off for
real? No one will ever see that one coming. The other reason is, once
we get him off stage, no one's gonna compare how we're writing him in
Forever with how they're writing him in X-men. We remove him as a
moment of comparison, and once we create that kind of hole in the
center of the series, suddenly, there's a tremendous amount of room
for other characters to expand to fill the gap. Like Beast for
example, or Jean, or Sabretooth." http://www.theouthousers.com/content/view/5110/600/
I can't think of a better defense of the inconsistencies in XMF than
this from Comixfan. Obsonator writes,
"Mr. Claremont, I'm sure that you could research your own scripts from
the original run and make a list of where everybody was; what they
were into; and so forth. But even after doing that, would your
thoughts still match those from 1991? We as readers tend to forget
that the characters are not real (gasp) and that they spring from a
single writer's thoughts. After 18 years, some of your original
intentions for the characters wouldn't be the same. So, even if we
haven't seen the ending to the Shadow King War or some things feel a
tad different, XMF is still a great book in its own regard."
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=46916&page=25
grinningdemon
<Mead...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> I just hope the book gets cancelled before Wolverine innevitably
>> >> returns and the book gets even worse.
>>
>> >So do I. �I hope Wolverine never comes back in XMF. �If I want to read
>> >about Wolverine, I can pick up one of about 15 other books on the shelf.
>>
>> You might as well prepare yourself then because you know he'll be
>> coming back.
>
>
>I don't think so. Claremont recently said, "So, the whole point with
>this was, especially with Forever: ok, if we can't do the Wolverine
>getting killed and coming back as master assassin of the hand because
>Mark Millar's already done that... Yeah, that's amazing, all the Brits
>use the same plot line. You come off the boat, they give it to you
>with their passport. �Here's a wolverine plot, go work for marvel
>now.� So, the next best thing was, well, why don't we kill him off for
>real? No one will ever see that one coming. The other reason is, once
>we get him off stage, no one's gonna compare how we're writing him in
>Forever with how they're writing him in X-men. We remove him as a
>moment of comparison, and once we create that kind of hole in the
>center of the series, suddenly, there's a tremendous amount of room
>for other characters to expand to fill the gap. Like Beast for
>example, or Jean, or Sabretooth." http://www.theouthousers.com/content/view/5110/600/
I guess we'll have to wait and see on this one...but, given how
prevalent Wolverine has remained in the 10 issues since his death, I
just can't see Claremont keeping him out of it.
>I can't think of a better defense of the inconsistencies in XMF than
>this from Comixfan. Obsonator writes,
>"Mr. Claremont, I'm sure that you could research your own scripts from
>the original run and make a list of where everybody was; what they
>were into; and so forth. But even after doing that, would your
>thoughts still match those from 1991? We as readers tend to forget
>that the characters are not real (gasp) and that they spring from a
>single writer's thoughts. After 18 years, some of your original
>intentions for the characters wouldn't be the same. So, even if we
>haven't seen the ending to the Shadow King War or some things feel a
>tad different, XMF is still a great book in its own regard."
>http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=46916&page=25
I don't care if he writes the same stories he would have written back
then...and I don't worry about minor continuity problems (although
ignoring major storypoints like Nathan being sent into the future is
taking that too far)...I just want proper characterization...and we
don't have that here at all...Claremont wrote most of these characters
for many years (hell, he created most of them) and he should be able
to do better in this regard.
I find it utterly ridiculous that a relationship that has lasted
pretty much since the beginning of the X-Men and been at the center of
some of the greatest X-Men stories (having lasted through deaths and
resurrections, evil clones, children from the future, etc) is
essentially thrown out in a single issue because Jean suddenly wakes
up one day totally in love with some other guy and Scott is just
something she stepped in along the way (as I've said before, how does
the guy that wrote the Phoenix Saga write this shit?)...furthermore,
it annoys the hell out of me that everyone in the book is treating
Jean like a grieving widow (even Scott, for Christ's sake) when she
and Wolverine were NEVER TOGETHER...I also find it ridiculous that
Kitty, having suffered many losses as an X-Man by this point, and not
having even been on a team with him in many years, would totally go
off the deep end over Wolverine's death when this isn't even the first
time she's thought him dead (I could maybe buy this reaction if
Colossus died...MAYBE)...I don't buy for a second Jean and Kitty would
so readily turn on the adult Storm without even attempting to seek an
explanation for her actions (when they are both AT LEAST as close to
Storm as they are to Wolverine)...I also don't believe that Sabretooth
is suddenly all nice and friendly just because he got his eyes burned
out...maybe it doesn't really seem like much given how large this cast
is but these are some of the characters Claremont is focusing on the
most...it's awful.
Even setting the many characterization issues aside, the stories just
aren't very good. ANOTHER Phoenix retread? (well, I guess he might as
well since he's already crapping all over the Phoenix Saga anyway)
And ANOTHER Trask? Because THAT never gets old...how many of these
people have to start attacking them with sentinels before the X-Men
start keeping an eye on that family? And how many of them can there
possibly be? And it's honestly starting to seem like Claremont would
rather be writing a SHIELD book...and a rather boring one at that.
In my opinion, X-Men Forever is FAR from a great book...in ANY regard.