I remember as a kid that the old saying was "This is not a Library. No
reading for free!" Nowadays, when I occasionally visit a larger comic book
store it is not uncommon to see what amounts to a small crowd standing
around reading the comic books, and it amazes me that people can so
shamelessly rob their comic book store. After all, aside from
collectability, the main value of a comic book is the story and art. So if
you read it at the store and do not buy it, you have therefore stolen what
the comic book is selling.
Norm
I think it all depends on why you're reading it in the store. If you're reading
a
book, trying to find something in it that will prompt you to buy the book (and
possibly future issues of the title and/or creative team), then I see nothing
really wrong with it. However, if you're reading it because you simply don't
feel like paying for it, then it can be a problem. I'll freely admit to doing
this,
on occasion, for the former reason. Other times, I'll hear hype from other
people about something (either negative or positive) and want to check it
out for myself -- I'm not really sure I want to buy it, or I'm certain that I
won't
buy it, but want to see what people are talking about.
Help put the comic stores out of business? Definitely not. People have been
doing it for ages. Obviously, it would be a problem if masses of people were
doing it, but there is little chance of this happening. None of the stores that
I've bought comics from over the past 30-ish years have ever had a problem
with it. One store, in fact, used to have open discussions on particular issues
where customers would discuss almost every panel with or without actually
buying the book. This store is still around, allowing almost the same thing,
after 30-ish years, so I don't think it's hurt them any.
The bottom line is that most people will buy a book if the story and/or art
interests them, regardless of whether they are readinging it at the store
or not.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"
Well that's just plain stupid. That's what PREVIEWS is for--not to mention
online newsgroups, forums and chatrooms.
-- Ken from Chicago
I was stunned when they started putting in benches, tables and chairs around
Barnes and Noble bookstores, but I figured it was part of a "the first one's
free", or providing enough bait that you hook people into becoming readers
into becoming buyers. Or if they don't buy the books, maybe they will buy
stuff the the in-store cafes.
-- Ken from Chicago
most of the time it does not bother me if it is a steady customer. by letting
him (or her) look thru an issue or two they might start buying the series.
what does bother me is when it is a magazine such as animerica or such.
one parent said that he couldn't buy the magazine but could look thru it. when
i questioned her on it she huffed and said that she wasn't going to spend $5.00
on this crap.
what bothered me wasn't the fact that she didn't want to buy my merchandise or
that it was crap, but it was perfectly fine for her kid to just read the
magazine but not buy it.
hb
>
>I was stunned when they started putting in benches, tables and chairs around
>Barnes and Noble bookstores, but I figured it was part of a "the first one's
>free", or providing enough bait that you hook people into becoming readers
>into becoming buyers. Or if they don't buy the books, maybe they will buy
>stuff the the in-store cafes.
They had a thing on CNN a few weeks ago regarding different cultural
aspects of South Korea (IIRC) and delved into something I think they
called "Boku's" (I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on this part)
The gist of it is that as far as I can figure out, its like Internet
Cafe for everything. Folks would pay about 20 bucks to rent time in a
state of the art home theatre room in a video store and watch a movie
in large widescreen and digital sound. After saying that there were
not only places where you can rent time to play online video games and
watch movies, there were also Comic Bokus were you could rent time in
reading a store's collection of books. I didn't watch the full report
since I was preoccupied with other stuff, but thought I'd chime in
with this little piece of worthless (and probably misremembered)
information.
As for Barnes and Noble and their 'sit down and peruse'-idology, I'm
shocked they just don't put a xerox machine in their store while
they're at it, too..
Bookstores are in a somewhat different position, because nobody's going
to sit down and read a 200-page novel in the store. (Or at least, only
a handful of freaks.) The idea is that people will read the first
couple of chapters, decide they like the book, and buy it. In theory,
this should encourage people to buy more books.
Stores have been doing it for long enough now that I assume the figures
bear them out.
--
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS - http://www.thexaxis.com
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
LIVEJOURNAL - http://www.livejournal.com/~paulobrien
>Bookstores are in a somewhat different position, because nobody's going
>to sit down and read a 200-page novel in the store. (Or at least, only
>a handful of freaks.)
I have a friend that's one of those freaks. She has a lot of books at
home, and buys a fair amount, but she'll still go to Barnes & Noble or
Borders and sit there (over the course of a few nights) and read entire
novels. I don't really get it; I enjoy owning books, so that's part of
the difference, but to me, the $10 or $20 that I pay for the book is
worth being able to read the book in the comfort of my house instead of
sitting in the middle of a bookstore.
JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
B&N actually encourages this, but a very sad impression is left by those who
stand for some time in the comic store reading a comic from cover to cover in
order to save themselves 3 bucks.
>In article <5wloHyCGdX6$Ew...@esoterica.demon.co.uk>,
>Paul O'Brien <pa...@SPAMBLOCK.esoterica.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Bookstores are in a somewhat different position, because nobody's going
>>to sit down and read a 200-page novel in the store. (Or at least, only
>>a handful of freaks.)
>
>I have a friend that's one of those freaks. She has a lot of books at
>home, and buys a fair amount, but she'll still go to Barnes & Noble or
>Borders and sit there (over the course of a few nights) and read entire
>novels. I don't really get it; I enjoy owning books, so that's part of
>the difference, but to me, the $10 or $20 that I pay for the book is
>worth being able to read the book in the comfort of my house instead of
>sitting in the middle of a bookstore.
>
>JRjr
I've known people who, in the past, used the B&N pretty lax book
return policy to turn the place essentially into a library. Buy book,
keep a week or so, return for credit, get another book, repeat. Not
the thing to do for the lastest $4.99 Star Trek novel, but was done a
lot with the $30 hardbacks.
I've done that some slow weeks when none of my authors have anything out. That,
or I spend a 'day' reading all magazines, just about anything to fill in more
current 'general knowledge' stuff. :(
--
?? I need another word like 'trinket, bauble, icon', but not those. Something
that means generic or special 'things'
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
con...@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com ((remove the INVALID to email))
Or on the way to work, or on lunch break, or standing in line at stores,
movies, etc.
> JRjr
> --
> %%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> "Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
> While others simply languish in their sleep
> Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
-- Ken from Chicago
Hey, she's not gonna CONTRIBUTE to the delinquincy of her minor. She wants
her juvenile delinquinated for free.
-- Ken from Chicago
>B&N actually encourages this, but a very sad impression is left by those who
>stand for some time in the comic store reading a comic from cover to cover in
>order to save themselves 3 bucks.
The thing that really hacks me off in this area is people that stand
right in front of the new comic racks and read. I usually get my new
comics at Oxford Comics in Atlanta, among the biggest and busiest stores
in the city. They put all their new stuff up in a pretty dense wall rack
at one end of the store, and on Wednesdays, it's not unusual for there
to be 10 or more people pulling their new books at the same time. And
there always seems to be some oblivious fuckwad (usually a _smelly_
oblivious fuckwad) standing front and center reading a comic, with no
perception that he's in the way of a bunch of people. I've taken to just
reaching in front of them, around them, between their knees, whatever it
takes to get my comics. If they don't feel the need to be polite and
move out of the way, I don't feel the need to be polite and wait on them
to move so the paying customers can get at the books.
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker_era...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:i5Gdnc3VM4u...@comcast.com...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Pfft, no. It's just Byrne-Stealing.
This so often turns into an arbitrary moral judgement that I have to mention
that from a practical standpoint, it is only equivalent to stealing if in
fact the person reading the story would have been willing to pay money for
it had they not had the opportunity to read it without paying. So sometimes
it's stealing. Sometimes it isn't. And you can't put one big categorical
label on the whole thing, and that probably drives you crazy.
> Does this kind of thing help to put comic book stores out of business?
Sometimes, maybe. Then again, say there's a measure put in against this--
say all the comics are bagged. One could argue that since nobody'll be able
to flip through the issues, there won't be as many people who discover new
titles, so in effect the store actually ends up losing business. So there's
a potential for loss either way.
> I remember as a kid that the old saying was "This is not a Library. No
> reading for free!" Nowadays, when I occasionally visit a larger comic book
> store it is not uncommon to see what amounts to a small crowd standing
> around reading the comic books, and it amazes me that people can so
> shamelessly rob their comic book store. After all, aside from
> collectability, the main value of a comic book is the story and art. So if
> you read it at the store and do not buy it, you have therefore stolen what
> the comic book is selling.
Geez, I was going to try and spell out the sound babies make when crying,
y'know, as a kind of mockery, but I've forgotten how it's actually spelled.
Is it "wah" or "wha" or "wa" or... hell, I give up.
> A lot of people openly admit that they read or at a minimum page
> through comic books at the store in order to keep up with a story
> without having to buy the comic book. Does anyone think that this is
> the same as stealing??? Does this kind of thing help to put comic book
> stores out of business?
I don't think so. While I gave up on Uncanny X-Men several months back,
I still wanted to see what was going on. I paged through the issues on
the store. I still spend a significant amount of money, so I don't see
a problem. If I didn't buy books, that's another story entirely.
after a few months of this i asked if there are any books that he would like to
buy.
his answer was that his mother would not give him an allowance and that he
could not afford any.
soon after that she started to when his birthday came and she felt that he was
old enough to handle money.
he would then buy 3-5 books a week and became a good customer.
if it's an adult it's different. they're usually cheap.
hb
You lie.
"Officer, I wasn't PLANNING on buying the car anyway, so technically, it's
not 'stealing'."
"Yeah, yeah, tell it to the judge."
-- Ken from Chicago
Indeed. The real reason it isn't stealing is because the law doesn't define
"reading a book without purchase" as stealing. The applicable laws only work
with regard to physical property.
The real question is: How ethical is reading a book without buying it?
Frankly, Babaloughesian makes a very good point.
In the early 90's marvel had so many cross overs...one example was an
x-men/ghost rider one (sorry can't remember the issues) so I had to
buy one issue of ghost rider to see what happened in the dessert and
what Gambit ? did. So I read it in the store.
Thats why I quit reading for 10 years....cause I had to buy alot of
cross overs.
It was those 20-plus-part crossover with the x-books that got me to drop em.
After 20-plus-part crossover about Legion followed a couple months later by
a similar 20-plus-part crossover about Phalanx, I said enough. It was bad
enough having all these crossovers back to back, but nothing happened! In
the Legion one Legion lost his mind--that was the grand result of over a
score-issues. There was a similar paucity of accomplishment about the Legacy
virus, the X-tinction saga, Age of Apocalypse, the Heroes Reborn, etc.,
etc., etc.
That and a huge hit to the wallet.
-- Ken from Chicago
>Browsing is good ! I mean that if I want to buy a comic book that I
>haven't read before, I would take a look...I want a good story plus
>good artwork and some books (eg: old robotech) aren't good enough to
>buy.
>
>In the early 90's marvel had so many cross overs...one example was an
>x-men/ghost rider one (sorry can't remember the issues) so I had to
>buy one issue of ghost rider to see what happened in the dessert and
>what Gambit ? did. So I read it in the store.
I liked the crossovers. it made marvel universe seem more real to have
heroes staying in a related world. it was having crossovers and not being
able to find those crossover issues in the comic shop that killed it for
me.
Or having many crossovers back to back. It got tiresome and expensive.
I quit reading about 1992, but I remember getting confused because I
couldn't afford to buy all the books that were part of the crossovers (I
was only 9 or 10 at the time).
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with crossovers... except when they're
forced and ruin ongoing storylines, which is what they all ended up being since
the late-80s.
The only thing worse is buying and not reading. Speculators should be tarred
and feathered on sight.
No, because most store owners allow it.
--
-Scottmack
"Spreading my sunshine throughout Usenet hell."
>
>
Marvel and DC taught me the hard way:
FORGET THE CROSSOVER.
If a crossover affects a regular series you read, only read your series. If
the writer's good, they will do a recap in the following issue. At worse,
you find out from ads, PREVIEWS or online what was missed.
The one exception is if I like the writers involved, because the writers I
like will do the hard work of laying the groundwork for newbies "crossing
over", maybe we won't understand everything, but we'll get the gist of
what's going on.
-- Ken from Chicago
Feh. Speculators aren't bad. They serve a useful purpose. It's the pandering
to them is hurtful.
Yeah, it's useful to have some hoarders for the wasters to annoy in hell.
> It's the pandering to them is hurtful.
Yoda much ? =)
> A lot of people openly admit that they read or at a minimum page
> through comic books at the store in order to keep up with a story
> without having to buy the comic book. Does anyone think that this is
> the same as stealing??? Does this kind of thing help to put comic book
> stores out of business?
>
> I remember as a kid that the old saying was "This is not a Library. No
> reading for free!" Nowadays, when I occasionally visit a larger comic
> book store it is not uncommon to see what amounts to a small crowd
> standing around reading the comic books, and it amazes me that people
> can so shamelessly rob their comic book store. After all, aside from
> collectability, the main value of a comic book is the story and art.
> So if you read it at the store and do not buy it, you have therefore
> stolen what the comic book is selling.
>
> Norm
>
>
Hard to say. It's like stealing in some respects but not in others.
What if rather than reading a copy at that store a person reads a friends
copy? Haven't thay also gotten the story for free and cost the company a
sell?
Still it does seems unethical to me to take advantage of the store to read
the books fo free. But it wouldn't be an issue if the store owners would
put a stop to it.
Mike
> > Does anyone think that this is the same as stealing???
>
> No, because most store owners allow it.
I have a strict rule: I only stand around and read a comic if I'm also
going to be spending money at the store. The more money I'm going to
be spending, the more time I allow myself to stand around reading!
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Mikel Midnight
"You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the
pox." (John Montagu, fourth Earl of Sandwich)
"That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles
or your mistress." (John Wilkes, sometime friend of his
and rakish member of the aristocracy)
blak...@blaklion.best.vwh.net
_______________________________________http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/comics.html
>I've taken to just
>reaching in front of them, around them, between their knees, whatever it
>takes to get my comics. If they don't feel the need to be polite and
>move out of the way, I don't feel the need to be polite and wait on them
>to move so the paying customers can get at the books.
If they are in your way, simply tell them so and ask them to move.
Waiting for someone that is in your way to simply move is not polite.
- Rick
Needs More Cow Bell
Free readers are not stealing from the comic shop. The are after all
allowed to do it by the comic shop personal. If they are stealing
from anyone it is the other customers that eventually actually pay for
the comic they have read for free. They have robbed them of a fresh,
stress free comic.
There's really no black or white side to this, which is a shame...although it
did occur to me that a goodly piece of the revenue from a comic stems from its
in-issue advertising, which arguably you see whether you pay for it or not.
I would argue, though, that any comic a person can read and appreciate in only
a few in-store minutes probably isn't worth anyone's money anyway.
I'll take forfeiting the $13.00 and bringing it home to read, rather than
giving up any shread of dignity by being "that guy" standing and reading
thoroughly, page-by-page, the latest X-Men tpb in the middle of the isle,
directly in front of all of the other tpbs. You know the middle-aged dude with
the unkempt clothes, belt pulled too tight, and old, black rock t-shirt. I saw
an example in B&N yesterday. Obviously invests as much money in his clothes and
personal hygeine as he does in his graphic novels. ;)
I hdn't thought of that.
It's a good point but unless comic companies can convince advertizers that
a significant number of non-buyers read the books it won't help the
companies sell ads.
Mike
>
> I would argue, though, that any comic a person can read and appreciate
> in only a few in-store minutes probably isn't worth anyone's money
> anyway.
True as well. Some writers stretch their stories out so needlessly over
multiple issues that it's hard to blame readers for just scanning the
issues in the store instead of buying them.
Mike
>
>
You checked out the coffee prices in those book stores? I think that's why
it's encouraged. The mark up on coffee is lot higher than the mark up on
books.
Mike
>You checked out the coffee prices in those book stores? I think that's why
>it's encouraged. The mark up on coffee is lot higher than the mark up on
>books.
I buy a lot of coffee at Borders. They charge the standard going
price for coffee and espresso based drinks. No higher mark up that I
can see.
I don't think he was comparing the cost to other outlets, I think he was
comparing the cost of the cofee to the cost of actually making the
cofee. That is what is meant by the term mark up.
--
My name is not misspelled.