From Len Wein's first DEFENDERS issue, #12, February 1973.
The Hulk is wandering through a forest with a goofy grin on his face. Suddenly, a tree sneaks up behind him (no, really) and wraps its branches around his neck. While pounding on the tree, the Hulk yells the following soliliquy:
"Even here -- even in peaceful forest -- they will not leave Hulk alone! Wherever Hulk goes, enemies follow him -- try to hurt him! Why? Hulk does not know! All Hulk does know is -- When enemies attack, Hulk fights back -- and smashes -- HUH? Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree?? Wha --? Now other trees attack Hulk -- and rocks -- flying rocks! Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand! Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks. Hulk thought they were his friends -- Hulk's ONLY friends -- But if peaceful forest attacks Hulk, too -- then Hulk has no friends -- and Hulk will crush anything that gets in Hulk's way! Do you hear Hulk, rocks? Do you hear Hulk, trees? Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!"
But it's the caption that's the clincher. Over a particularly nice panel of Hulk getting smacked in the face by a flying rock, we read: "But the Green Goliath's maddened words fall on deaf ears. In fact, they fall on no ears, save his own. Rocks and trees are notoriously hard of hearing."
At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com Newly updated: Akiko, Supernatural Law, Green Lantern, Superman
In article <20000612211659.28909.00002...@ng-bj1.aol.com>,
KurtBusiek <kurtbus...@aol.comics> wrote: >>>At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!>>
>Len didn't write many DEFENDERS -- though I think you'll enjoy the Hulk's >encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did >have a decent-length run on HULK.
>He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three >issues are dialogued by Roger Stern.
>You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194, >it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the >other characters.
Hulk versus the Thunderstorm in Coober Skeeber, the Marvel Benefit issue, is also a worthwhile, though not humorous.
-- Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC "I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "Ipsa scientia potestas est." -- Roger Bacon
>>At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!>>
Len didn't write many DEFENDERS -- though I think you'll enjoy the Hulk's encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did have a decent-length run on HULK.
He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three issues are dialogued by Roger Stern.
You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194, it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the other characters.
Johanna Draper Carlson <joha...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
[snip]
> But it's the caption that's the clincher. Over a particularly nice panel of > Hulk getting smacked in the face by a flying rock, we read: > "But the Green Goliath's maddened words fall on deaf ears. > In fact, they fall on no ears, save his own. > Rocks and trees are notoriously hard of hearing." > At this point, I was rolling on the floor. This was priceless!
I don't think I've -ever- liked the Hulk as much as I do in his Defenders appearances. Peter David's Hulk is, in my mind, essentially a different character - like the two Green Lanterns (well, when there were two).
If you're making your way through the Defenders (as it sounded, from your Omegatron post), you're in for a treat.
--
---- Bill Kte'pi // bwk...@hampshire.edu // http://ktepi.freeservers.com moc.srevreseerf.ipetk\\:ptth \\ude.erihspmah@39kFkwb \\ Still Kte'pi
In article <20000612230648.01725.00002...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,
KurtBusiek <kurtbus...@aol.comics> wrote: >>>Hulk versus the Thunderstorm in Coober Skeeber, the Marvel Benefit issue, is >also a worthwhile, though not humorous.>>
>Aside from the cover to that issue (to which I own the pencils!), that's the >best piece in the book. It made me seek out more of Kochalka's work.
Actually, I think you mentioned that last time we talked in person. (Not owning the cover art, but that you liked those two pieces.)
I actually thought the X-men piece and the Dr. Strange story had some merit. -- Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC "I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "Ipsa scientia potestas est." -- Roger Bacon
> I don't think I've -ever- liked the Hulk as much as I do in his Defenders > appearances.
It's the only time I've read him in depth, but I can certainly see the appeal -- he seems to be boiled down to his brutal childlike essence, but that's treated with a sense of humor.
I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like "Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends, Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?" It's a nice commentary on the Hulk's limited grasp of concepts and over-repetition of same.
> If you're making your way through the Defenders (as it sounded, from your > Omegatron post), you're in for a treat.
I am. After talking about Marvel Knights, my husband handed me the Defenders to compare the concepts. I like the older take much better, probably because it's not so darn serious.
Once I learned to ignore the Bullpen Bulletins, it was smooth sailing. :)
Some of this stuff is just bizarrely amazing. The threats they face! The way they keep alternating between no team and showing up when Strange calls! I especially like the Valkyrie, although her origin was one of the creepiest things I've seen in a while. I had no idea Dr. Strange was such a sadist.
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com
"Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree?? Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand! Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks. Do you hear Hulk, rocks? Do you hear Hulk, trees? Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!" -- THE DEFENDERS #12, Len Wein (writer)
kurtbus...@aol.comics (KurtBusiek) wrote: > [Wein] starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220
Are those the "Hulk eats beans" issues? :) And were they contemporaneous with his DEFENDERS issues?
> You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194, > it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the > other characters.
But I LIKE the other characters. Well, Sub-Mariner has a stick up his butt, and Strange gets too big for his britches at times, and I really wonder about Nighthawk's original mask (did he not look in a mirror to see how stupid the beak looked?), but it wouldn't be the Defenders without everyone being grumpy most of the time.
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com
"Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree?? Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand! Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks. Do you hear Hulk, rocks? Do you hear Hulk, trees? Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!" -- THE DEFENDERS #12, Len Wein (writer)
Johanna Draper Carlson <joha...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> It's the only time I've read him in depth, but I can certainly see the > appeal -- he seems to be boiled down to his brutal childlike essence, but > that's treated with a sense of humor.
He's a big cuddly green guy.
> I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the > team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like > "Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The > rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends, > Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?" It's a nice > commentary on the Hulk's limited grasp of concepts and over-repetition of > same.
I sometimes got the feeling that any given issue of the Defenders could end the way kids' cartoons used to: the Hulk says something kinda dumb, and everyone laughs and groans and says, "Oh, Hulk!" while looking in the general direction of the imaginary camera. Cut to credits and theme song.
> Some of this stuff is just bizarrely amazing. The threats they face! The way > they keep alternating between no team and showing up when Strange calls! I > especially like the Valkyrie, although her origin was one of the creepiest > things I've seen in a while. I had no idea Dr. Strange was such a sadist.
My favorite Defenders cover is "A Piece of Eternity is Missing!" (70-something, I think - I'm sure someone will know). It's far out stuff. I mean, it actually makes the term "far out" seem appropriate. The title definitely went through some less than spectacular phases ... but it more than balances out in favor of the good stuff.
And Val is pretty much the heart of the team - put Val, Hellcat, and the Hulk together, and I don't care who else is around, you've got yourself some Defenders.
-- ---- Bill Kte'pi // bwk...@hampshire.edu // http://ktepi.freeservers.com moc.srevreseerf.ipetk\\:ptth \\ude.erihspmah@39kFkwb \\ Still Kte'pi
Ah, Defenders, there's a glory probably never gonna be recaptured. Wait for the Dr. Seuss world, Crom's devils, I loved that issue. Right up there with three ex-X-Men Defenders fighting Frogman.
>>And were they contemporaneous with his DEFENDERS issues?>>
More or less. Len's first issue of DEFENDERS predates his first HULK by a couple of months, I think -- and he doesn't last on DEFENDERS long. So there's an overlap while he's writing both books, but not for very long.
>> But I LIKE the other characters. >>
I do too. But if you like Len's Hulk, there's a lot more of it -- and a greater concentration on it -- to be had beyond DEFENDERS.
> Peter David's Hulk is, in my mind, essentially a different > character - like the two Green Lanterns (well, when there were two).
Yeah, like the old Aquaman and Peter David's Aquaman, or the old Supergirl and Peter David's Supergirl...notice a pattern here? I sometimes get the feeling that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them beyond recognition. (His X-Factor and Captain Marvel were totally different from previous incarnations as well, but the changes weren't actually his.)
On 13 Jun 2000 01:16:59 GMT, kurtbus...@aol.comics (KurtBusiek) wrote:
>Len didn't write many DEFENDERS -- though I think you'll enjoy the Hulk's >encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did >have a decent-length run on HULK.
>He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three >issues are dialogued by Roger Stern.
>You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194, >it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the >other characters.
I was wondering if Kurt Busiek would do a new defenders series, which heroes would he use.
>> Peter David's Hulk is, in my mind, essentially a different >> character - like the two Green Lanterns (well, when there were two). > Yeah, like the old Aquaman and Peter David's Aquaman, or the old Supergirl and > Peter David's Supergirl...notice a pattern here? I sometimes get the feeling > that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them beyond > recognition. (His X-Factor and Captain Marvel were totally different from > previous incarnations as well, but the changes weren't actually his.)
You say that like it's a bad thing :) I think it does seem to be a pattern, but considering the characters he's changed ... I don't know, I guess it's like the "changes to Cable" argument that had been going on in xbooks. If you liked the old Aquaman, you might not like PAD's. Ditto Supergirl. In both cases, though, I think he took flat characters that were little more than concepts and fleshed them out.
The Hulk ... well, his run on the Hulk is still one of my favorite Marvel runs (along with Gruenwald's Captain America, Englehart's Defenders, Ellis's Excalibur, Byrne's FF, and Claremont's first X-Men run). He did a -lot- with the character, and if there were moments that fell flat (I never liked the Pantheon), that's to be expected in a, what, 8-10 year run.
--
---- Bill Kte'pi // bwk...@hampshire.edu // http://ktepi.freeservers.com moc.srevreseerf.ipetk\\:ptth \\ude.erihspmah@39kFkwb \\ Still Kte'pi
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:04:13 GMT, jac...@cybercomm.nl (Jaco de Vries) wrote:
>On 13 Jun 2000 01:16:59 GMT, kurtbus...@aol.comics (KurtBusiek) wrote: >>Len didn't write many DEFENDERS -- though I think you'll enjoy the Hulk's >>encounter with some hunters in the Gerber run -- but luckily for you, he did >>have a decent-length run on HULK. >>He starts with #179, and sticks around 'til #220 -- though the last three >>issues are dialogued by Roger Stern. >>You'll probably enjoy the book -- when Sal Buscema takes over the art in #194, >>it's like getting those DEFENDERS issues without the pesky intrusion of the >>other characters. >I was wondering if Kurt Busiek would do a new defenders series, which >heroes would he use.
Ooh, ooh, or he could do an Avengers-Defenders War redux in Avengers!
> I sometimes got the feeling that any given issue of the Defenders could > end the way kids' cartoons used to: the Hulk says something kinda dumb, > and everyone laughs and groans and says, "Oh, Hulk!" while looking in the > general direction of the imaginary camera. Cut to credits and theme song.
BWA HA HA!
> And Val is pretty much the heart of the team - put Val, Hellcat, and the > Hulk together, and I don't care who else is around, you've got yourself > some Defenders.
Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com
"Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree?? Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand! Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks. Do you hear Hulk, rocks? Do you hear Hulk, trees? Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!" -- THE DEFENDERS #12, Len Wein (writer)
>> I don't think I've -ever- liked the Hulk as much as I do in his Defenders >> appearances.
>It's the only time I've read him in depth, but I can certainly see the >appeal -- he seems to be boiled down to his brutal childlike essence, but >that's treated with a sense of humor.
>I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the >team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like >"Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The >rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends, >Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?" It's a nice >commentary on the Hulk's limited grasp of concepts and over-repetition of >same.
>> If you're making your way through the Defenders (as it sounded, from your >> Omegatron post), you're in for a treat.
>I am. After talking about Marvel Knights, my husband handed me the Defenders >to compare the concepts. I like the older take much better, probably because >it's not so darn serious.
Have you gotten to the Gerber Defenders yet? I think you'll enjoy them .
One *SUB*-plot involves the following: Hulk has rescued a fawn he's named "Bambi" from some hunters. Meanwhile, Nighthawk has been captured by the badguys (the Headmen) and had his brain removed and dumped in a bowl. Not a tank or anything. Just a bowl. Chondu the Mystic's brain has been put into Nighthawk's body and Chondu/Nighthawk goes to a Defenders meeting. Doc Strange figures this out in seconds and moves Chondu's mind into Bambi's brain. He then puts Valkeryie's body's husband's mind into Chondu's brain in Nighthawk's body. And Gerber pulls this off while not losing track of any other plot point..
There's wonderful characterization, bizarre plots and a sense of....not wonder exactly....anything goes weirdness while still coherent-ness that you rarely see anymore.
And Gerber's characterization of Hulk as essentially an out of control Superbaby is touching and creepy at the same time.
No, I've gotten through Thomas and Englehart to Wein, but I'm trying to ration myself. :)
Hey, did fans of the time giggle at the magician with the "Jamaican incense"?
> I think you'll enjoy them .
I hope so!
> One *SUB*-plot involves the following: Hulk has rescued a fawn he's > named "Bambi" from some hunters.
Oh, dear, I can already imagine...
> He then puts Valkeryie's > body's husband's mind into Chondu's brain in Nighthawk's body.
Part of the reason I love comics is because sentences like this happen. :)
> And Gerber's characterization of Hulk as essentially an out of control > Superbaby is touching and creepy at the same time.
Except Hulk doesn't say "me", unlike Superbaby and Wonder Tot. :)
Johanna Draper Carlson joha...@comicsworthreading.com
"Is not enemy -- is tree! Hulk is attacked by -- tree?? Hulk is confused -- doesn't understand! Hulk LIKED trees. Hulk LIKED rocks. Do you hear Hulk, rocks? Do you hear Hulk, trees? Leave Hulk ALONE -- or Hulk will make you REGRET it!" -- THE DEFENDERS #12, Len Wein (writer)
Johanna Draper Carlson wrote: >>Hellcat shows up later? Kewl!
As do Moon Knight, Son of Satan, Power Man, and my personal favorite, the second Red Guardian.
I really think you might like the Red Guardian. She was one of the most competent female heroes of the seventies in a very classy, simple costume. Just don't ask what eventually happens to her...it is revolting beyond description (I really mean this).
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Johanna Draper Carlson <joha...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in article <8i57f2$d7...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>...
> I just stumbled on another terrific scene: the Sub-Mariner is leaving the > team (again) and Hulk wraps his arm around Nighthawk and says something like > "Fish-Man was Hulk's friend, but now Bird-Face will be Hulk's friend." The > rest of the group is obviously thinking "yeah, yeah, we're all your friends, > Hulk. Yes, he's your friend too. Will you shut up about it now?"
How to write the Hulk: imagine back to your buddy's last drunken rampage, and draw your dialogue from that.
-- Cranial Crusader dgh1...@bellsouth.net (who doesn't think the trees or the rocks like him, either)
In article <39466F4E.E7B7C...@swt.edu>, Ross Eron Thompson <rt30...@swt.edu> wrote:
> Bill Kte'pi wrote: (snip) > I sometimes get the feeling > that Peter David can't write pre-existing characters without changing them beyond > recognition. (His X-Factor and Captain Marvel were totally different from > previous incarnations as well, but the changes weren't actually his.)
> RET
If you go read PAD's Spidey stuff from early in his career, it's probably the truest to the character that Spidey has been in a long time, IMO. The Death of Jean DeWolffe is one of my all time favorites, and makes me think PAD would do a great Daredevil.
Incidentally, in the intro to the TPB of the Death of Jean DeWolffe, PAD makes it clear that he didn't make the Hulk grey (Al Milgrom did). Of course, he did make him a leg-breaker and then a terrorist, so I understand your point.
>>I was wondering if Kurt Busiek would do a new defenders series, which heroes
would he use.>>
I have no idea if I'd do a new Defenders series -- I'm a little busy these days, but you never know. But I liked the book up until Gerber left, and kinda enjoyed it for a while thereafter.
Were I to write the Defenders, I'd have to come up with a decent reason for the "non-team" concept to function, but I'd probably want to use Doc Strange, Hulk, Namor, Nighthawk, Hellcat and maybe Valkyrie and the Surfer. No Gargoyle, no Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
>but I'd probably want to use Doc Strange, Hulk, >Namor, Nighthawk, Hellcat and maybe Valkyrie and the Surfer. No Gargoyle, no >Cloud -- that's not stuff that ever interested me.
All characters I would buy a book for, and I can see not dealing with Cloud (ain't he/she/it dead anyhow?), but no Gargoyle? He irritated me in the Defenders, but the miniseries from the late eighties (I think, maybe early nineties, or some other time and I'm really confused) was excellent. Sweet stuff, and permanently quarter-bin fodder; which is cool by me and my thin wallet.
