Does Manga's success mean the comic industry is out of danger?
Anthony Abby
28, 2003) when I came across two articles that were somewhat related to one
another. And both articles touched on a subject which I myself have written
about in the past (Venturing down the road less traveled). I found both
articles to be thoughtful well-written pieces, but I'm not sure I agree with
the premise of either of them and thought I'd take the opportunity to
respond to both. I refer to Heidi MacDonald's "Hey kids! Comics!" column,
and Chuck Rozanski's article "Publishing: a look ahead". Both articles
either directly or indirectly dealt with the long-term prospects of comic
publishers and declining readership-a subject very near and dear to many of
us for obvious reasons.
Read about right here in Out in Left Field
(http://www.comicsnsuch.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21#42).
Read previous Out in Left Field columns at
http://www.comicsnsuch.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8.
--
Anthony Abby
http://www.comicsnsuch | Comic Community News
http://www.aplusdata.com | System Consultation
Web Development
Jason Czeskleba
distribution. Comics are no longer a mainstream form of entertainment like
they were 20 years ago. They are now a fringe media consumed only by
hardcore fans. Unless comics can be restored to availability in newsstands,
grocery stores, and drugstores, the industry will most likely die out. The
content of the books and how they are marketed are secondary issues to the
problem of distibution. Attempts to change/improve the content of the
books, target them to new audiences, or publicize/advertise them in
different or more aggressive ways will not be successful unless the
distribution issue is first addressed. As long as comics are only available
in speciality shops, the industry will never be able to attract significant
numbers of new readers.
How to solve the distribution problem I don't know. But I think the
industry is wasting too much time focusing on tangential marketing/content
issues when they should be putting all their resources behind getting back
into mainstream distribution channels.
"Anthony Abby" <antho...@aplusdata.com> wrote in message
news:3e8b3ded$1...@news.aplusdata.com...
Anthony Abby
"Jason Czeskleba" <czeskleba@damn_spam_attbi.com> wrote in message
news:8fIia.45029$OV.142160@rwcrnsc54...
> There is really only one answer as far as how to save the comics industry:
> distribution. Comics are no longer a mainstream form of entertainment
like
> they were 20 years ago. They are now a fringe media consumed only by
> hardcore fans. Unless comics can be restored to availability in
newsstands,
> grocery stores, and drugstores, the industry will most likely die out.
The
> content of the books and how they are marketed are secondary issues to the
> problem of distibution. Attempts to change/improve the content of the
> books, target them to new audiences, or publicize/advertise them in
> different or more aggressive ways will not be successful unless the
> distribution issue is first addressed. As long as comics are only
available
> in speciality shops, the industry will never be able to attract
significant
> numbers of new readers.
>
> How to solve the distribution problem I don't know. But I think the
> industry is wasting too much time focusing on tangential marketing/content
> issues when they should be putting all their resources behind getting back
> into mainstream distribution channels.
That's certainly a consideration yes, but I think there are some advantages
to not having comics at newsstands and such. For one they'd be competition
for the remaining comic specialty shops that desperately need the business.
For another, do you recall what comics looked like at those newsstands?
Most of them were tattered and in bad condition because everyone pawed
through them and then put them back. Admittedly that's not much of an
argument for NOT using newsstand distribution, it's just a general comment.
At this point I think the greatest problem is lack of knowledge on the part
of the greater public. We, the comic reading community, are such a small
infinitesimal microcosm now... the industry needs to start bring that
awareness and pervasiveness back to the public. But I think there isn't the
money enough to do it in one large step. So take some small steps and see
where it leads. Give themselves some time to analyze and adjust as needed.
But most importantly, use the avenues that are obvious... like those movies.
They're already spending big bucks to popularize the movies, so piggy back
on that. Seems so obvious it hurts!
Jason Czeskleba
> At this point I think the greatest problem is lack of knowledge on the
part
> of the greater public. We, the comic reading community, are such a small
> infinitesimal microcosm now... the industry needs to start bring that
> awareness and pervasiveness back to the public.
I still think that's putting the cart before the horse. Making the public
*aware* of comics doesn't do much good if those comics are not readily
available for purchase at places the general public goes. You are never
going to be successful at getting a significant amount of non fans/casual
readers to go out of their way to make a special trip to a comic store
(assuming there even is a comic store in the town they live in). You have
to bring the books to the casual reader, not the other way around. Look at
the Rawhide Kid thing... substantial publicity in the mainstream media about
that book. If it had been available at the local drug store, a casual
reader walking by might see it and say "hey, that's the gay cowboy I heard
about on CNN" and pick the book up. That same casual reader is not going to
make a special trip to a comic shop to go looking for the book. Same with
Spider-Man. The movie is like one big 2 hour commercial for the comics. If
the comics were actually available in grocery stores, I bet the movie would
have produced a notable sales increase. Mom is wheeling the cart down the
aisle, and junior says "Hey, Spider Man! Buy that for me." That's how it
used to work when I was a kid.
Mainstream distribution is the only way to draw in new readers, which is the
only way the industry will be saved. If comic shops can't compete with
that, too bad. Comic shop-only distribution is a dead end, catering to an
ever-shrinking base of existing readers.
James Moar
> (http://www.comicsnsuch.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21#42).
One point on this article -- you suggest that the typical TPB price is
$19.99 to $29.99. I'd say it's $9.95-$19.99, unless you're using
Canadian dollars.
In Diamond's top 50 Graphic Novels for February 2003, 44 of the titles
are within this range. Of the other six, four are cheaper (Crossgen's
Forge and Edge, a What's Michael TPB, and The Great Comic Book
Heroes), and only two are more expensive (one of Marvel's hardcover
year-long collections, and one DC Archive -- neither of which are
TPBs).
--
James Moar
James William Moar
>http://www.comicsnsuch.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=21
NB- This post is a rewrite, because Google seems to have eaten the first
version. Sorry if both show up.
In your article, you suggest that the typical TPB costs $19.99-$29.99.
Unless you're using Canadian dollars, I'd say that the typical price range
is $9.95-$19.99.
In Diamond's Top 50 Graphic Novels list for February 2003, 44 of the books
fall within this range. Four are cheaper (Crossgen's Forge and Edge, a
What's Michael TPB, and The Great Comic Book Heroes) and only two are more
expensive (one of Marvel's hardback year-long collections, and a DC
Archives -- neither of which are TPBs).
And, as for the argument that a TPB every 3-4 months, as opposed to a
smaller installment every month, will lead readers to forget what's going
on -- well, the TPB approach seems to work for novels, which are usually
published at much longer intervals than that, and it seems to work in
France, where sales are higher than in the US even before taking
population into account. Speaking personally, I'd say that large chunks
are more memorable than small, and a month's already quite a long time to
remember a story for.
--
James
File not found, I'll load something *I* think is interesting.
jay
<czeskleba@damn_spam_attbi.com> wrote:
> There is really only one answer as far as how to
> save the comics industry: distribution. Comics are
> no longer a mainstream form of entertainment like
> they were 20 years ago. They are now a fringe
> media consumed only by hardcore fans. Unless
> comics can be restored to availability in newsstands,
> grocery stores, and drugstores, the industry will most
> likely die out. The content of the books and how
> they are marketed are secondary issues to the
> problem of distibution. Attempts to change/improve
> the content of the books, target them to new
> audiences, or publicize/advertise them in different
> or more aggressive ways will not be successful
> unless the distribution issue is first addressed. As
> long as comics are only available in speciality
> shops, the industry will never be able to attract
> significant numbers of new readers.
Every other problem the industry faces is so
secondary as to be virtually irrelevant--it seems so
obvious it's painful. I don't think the industry is in
any danger of dying out, but it isn't healthy and
won't be at any point in the forseeable future if
these distribution problems aren't addressed. It
can limp by, but it can never thrive as it once
did while stuck in the comic book store "ghetto."
NotJustComics
says will change our minds there will be problems.
Josh Dull
They reach a wider audience by being placed in supermarkets and department
stores. American comics are placed in specility shops that are not known for
friendly, courteous service.
They also tell stories that appeal to more people. Either by having more
genres
or stories that are easy to get into. American comics are dominated by
super-hero fare and written only for people that have been reading comics
for the
past thirty years.
If comics changes tactic it still has a chance to save itself. Otherwise it
will go the
way of the dodo and Joe Piscopo's career.
Josh
Paul O'Brien
<czeskleba@damn_spam_attbi.com> writes
>
>How to solve the distribution problem I don't know. But I think the
>industry is wasting too much time focusing on tangential
>marketing/content issues when they should be putting all their
>resources behind getting back into mainstream distribution channels.
Well, they are - the aim is to build the trade paperback market through
bookstores. The newsstands are a lost cause in the current format -
they just don't want comics, because they don't bring in enough profit
to justify the shelf space.
--
Paul O'Brien
THE X-AXIS - http://www.thexaxis.com
ARTICLE 10 - http://www.ninthart.com
Regime change begins at home.
HoverX
"Josh Dull" <cd...@woh.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wheka.47228$JI.12...@twister.neo.rr.com...
> Manga is doing well because they succeed where American comics fail.
>
> They reach a wider audience by being placed in supermarkets and department
> stores. American comics are placed in specility shops that are not known
for
> friendly, courteous service.
Manga is supermarkets??
Justin Bacon
>Every other problem the industry faces is so
>secondary as to be virtually irrelevant--it seems so
>obvious it's painful.
And the sad truth is that these little monthly pamphlets -- the last vestiges
of a pulp industry that died out in the 1940s -- are not going to be a vehicle
which ever makes its way back into the public eye again. The format is too
expensive for its content and inconvenient for every single mass market
location to stock reliably and regularly.
Trade collections. True magazines (both full-color glossy and cheap pulp B&W).
These are the formats that need to be pursued -- and pursued vigorously -- if
the comic book industry is going to surive and flourish. Those are formats that
can be sold to mainstream purchases through mainstream sales outlets.
One of the reasons for manga's resounding success here in the states is that,
in emulating the Japanese market to a certain extent, the manga producers were
the first to issue truly comprehensive collections.
Frankly, I think Viz should seriously consider releasing a monthly or bi-weekly
Viz Magazine -- which would mimic the Japanese weeklies in format and collect
all of Viz's titles into one volume. For me, personally, it would be a
relatively inexpensive product that could justify itself as long as at least
1/4 of the content was interesting to me... and I'd at least look at the other
material, which might get me interested in something I wasn't interested in
before (and drive the sales of Viz's collections).
Similarly, I think Marvel could benefit by releasing a monthly Spider-Man
Magazine and X-Men Magazine. Full-color, glossy magazines that would compile
the current "pamphlet" books under one roof, include additional related
content, and be a format in which more advertisers would be interested. If the
first issue of these magazines was designed to coincide with the release of
their major movies (and even be marketed as a "Movie Magazine"), the tie-in
would be obvious and the related sales would drive follow-through
subscriptions. (Other possibiltiies would include a Marvel Knights magazine for
mature material and a Marvel Universe catch-all magazine for things like the
FF, Iron Man, the Avengers, etc.).
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
James William Moar
> Frankly, I think Viz should seriously consider releasing a monthly or bi-weekly
> Viz Magazine -- which would mimic the Japanese weeklies in format and collect
> all of Viz's titles into one volume.
As opposed, you mean, to what they're doing with Shonen Jump? The two
products would overlap, and a Viz Magazine would lose the coherence of
Shonen Jump.
It is an interesting idea, but I think an everything-but-Shonen-Jump
magazine might be a useful modification of it.
> For me, personally, it would be a
> relatively inexpensive product that could justify itself as long as at least
> 1/4 of the content was interesting to me... and I'd at least look at the other
> material, which might get me interested in something I wasn't interested in
> before (and drive the sales of Viz's collections).
--
James Moar
jay
>> Every other problem the industry faces is so
>> secondary as to be virtually irrelevant--it seems so
>> obvious it's painful.
>
> And the sad truth is that these little monthly
> pamphlets -- the last vestiges of a pulp industry
> that died out in the 1940s -- are not going to be
> a vehicle which ever makes its way back into the
> public eye again. The format is too expensive for
> its content and inconvenient for every single mass
> market location to stock reliably and regularly.
I think you're probably right, but I disagree with the
idea that the format couldn't be resurrected. It's simply
a matter of will, and I think the will--for now, at least--is
lacking. (The expense now isn't due to technological
innovation, better paper, or any of that--it has to do
with the fact that comics that used to sell hundreds
of thousands of copies now sell 20,000.)
> Trade collections. True magazines (both full-color
> glossy and cheap pulp B&W). These are the
> formats that need to be pursued -- and pursued
> vigorously -- if the comic book industry is going to
> surive and flourish. Those are formats that can be
> sold to mainstream purchases through mainstream
> sales outlets.
The Japanese market, presently in its Golden Age,
is driven by "magazines" that are, in fact, huge
collections with multiple serialized stories. That's
certainly an option for the U.S. market (though I
would think the costs of pursuing such a market
here could be prohibitive). However they're
packaged, though, I don't think there's any danger
of comics, as a form, ever disappearing.
> Similarly, I think Marvel could benefit by releasing
> a monthly Spider-Man Magazine and X-Men
> Magazine. Full-color, glossy magazines that would
> compile the current "pamphlet" books under one
> roof, include additional related content, and be a
> format in which more advertisers would be
> interested.
Therein lies the "prohibitively expensive" part. The
Japanese market is almost entirely black-and-white,
and published on cheap paper. It would be
expensive as hell to put out the books in the form
you're suggesting. Most readers aren't going to be
interested in the five or six books that would appear
in one magazine--they're going to be interested in
one or maybe two. That means you're, in effect,
raising the price on fans of each individual book. If
such an approach could ever get established, of
course, circulation could make up the difference
and help lower costs, but you're talking about a
long period of brutal shock-therapy inflicted on an
industry that has just went through a brutal period.
Justin Bacon
>As opposed, you mean, to what they're doing with Shonen Jump? The two
>products would overlap, and a Viz Magazine would lose the coherence of
>Shonen Jump.
Hey, cool. I didn't know they were doing that. Yet another example of the
American manga industry showing the way.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
>Therein lies the "prohibitively expensive" part. The
>Japanese market is almost entirely black-and-white,
>and published on cheap paper. It would be
>expensive as hell to put out the books in the form
>you're suggesting. Most readers aren't going to be
>interested in the five or six books that would appear
>in one magazine--they're going to be interested in
>one or maybe two.
I think the average person who's going to be attracted to Spider-Man is going
to be interested in Spider-Man. We're talking about ways of getting comics in
front of a new audience. I think the average person who might be interested in
reading stories about Spider-Man is not going to be turned off by a magazine
featuring several stories about Spider-Man each month -- even if some of them
don't appeal.
Similarly, I don't read every single article in Time Magazine. I still
subscribe.
In addition, this is a format in which advertisers are more likely to place an
ad. They know what a magazine is, for starters. I would expect to see the
Spider-Man Magazine possessed of a lot more ads. And as long as they're smart
about it, I don't see those ads interfering with the content any more than the
ads in the current pamphlets.
>That means you're, in effect,
>raising the price on fans of each individual book.
By all means: Continue publishing the pamphlets as a legacy until they become
economically infeasible. As long as there's some content in the magazine which
is available only in the magazine, the legacy offering won't be sapping sales
from the magazine.
But any comic book company which is looking at their monthly pamphlets and
thinking "wow, that's where my future is" is deluding itself. At best, the
pamphlets represent a way of defraying the costs of developing content for
collections.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
jay
>> Therein lies the "prohibitively expensive" part.
>> The Japanese market is almost entirely black-
>> and-white, and published on cheap paper. It
>> would be expensive as hell to put out the
>> books in the form you're suggesting. Most
>> readers aren't going to be interested in the
>> five or six books that would appear in one
>> magazine--they're going to be interested in
>> one or maybe two.
>
> I think the average person who's going to be
> attracted to Spider-Man is going to be interested
> in Spider-Man. We're talking about ways of
> getting comics in front of a new audience. I
> think the average person who might be
> interested in reading stories about Spider-Man
> is not going to be turned off by a magazine
> featuring several stories about Spider-Man each
> month -- even if some of them don't appeal.
That's far too broad an assumption, though. To
use myself as an example, I'm an X-Men fan from
way back. When X-Men quality tanked in the late
'80s, I checked out. I was drawn back because
of Morrison's New X-Men and Millar's Ultimate
X-Men. What I've seen of the other X-books
didn't impress me at all, and I'm completely
uninterested in them. UX-Men is set in the
Ultimate Marvel Universe, and, presumably,
wouldn't be included in the proposed X-Men
Magazine, which leaves me with only New
X-Men and a huge price increase to pay for
books I don't want.
But your assumption also misses my point. You
can put out a mag with all the Spiderman books.
You can do the same with the X-Men books and,
over at DC, Superman and Batman. Other than
that, though, you're either going to have to create
massive amounts of new material, at tremendous
expense, in order to fill a magazine devoted to a
single character (Iron Man Magazine, Thor
Magazine, and so forth), or you're going to have
to throw a lot of disparate books together (Iron
Man/Fantastic Four/Black Panther/Punisher
Magazine, and so forth).
> Similarly, I don't read every single article in Time
> Magazine. I still subscribe.
Time is an alleged news magazine--a very different
creature from a publication *openly* dedicated to
fictional stories for entertainment purposes.
> In addition, this is a format in which advertisers are
> more likely to place an ad. They know what a
> magazine is, for starters. I would expect to see the
> Spider-Man Magazine possessed of a lot more ads.
> And as long as they're smart about it, I don't see
> those ads interfering with the content any more
> than the ads in the current pamphlets.
It's a matter of convincing a wide range of
advertisers to purchase space in what are widely
regarded as children's funny-books, something
comics have never been able to do. Advertising
is where the money is in magazine publishing.
I've had the impression that comics' money
comes from sales.
>>That means you're, in effect, raising the price on
>> fans of each individual book.
>
> By all means: Continue publishing the pamphlets
> as a legacy until they become economically
> infeasible. As long as there's some content in the
> magazine which is available only in the magazine,
> the legacy offering won't be sapping sales from
> the magazine.
As long as the magazine is primarily reprinting the
comics, the comics will be sapping sales from the
magazine. People aren't going to pay a higher
price *and* pay it for content they've already read
at a lower price.
> But any comic book company which is looking at
> their monthly pamphlets and thinking "wow, that's
> where my future is" is deluding itself. At best, the
> pamphlets represent a way of defraying the costs
> of developing content for collections.
As I said, the format could be revived--it's simply a
matter of will.
I V
> On 11 Apr 2003 02:04:16 GMT, tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
>> I think the average person who's going to be attracted to Spider-Man is
>> going to be interested in Spider-Man. We're talking about ways of
>> getting comics in front of a new audience. I think the average person
>> who might be interested in reading stories about Spider-Man is not
>> going to be turned off by a magazine featuring several stories about
>> Spider-Man each month -- even if some of them don't appeal.
>
> That's far too broad an assumption, though. To use myself as an example,
> I'm an X-Men fan from way back. When X-Men quality tanked in the late
> '80s, I checked out. I was drawn back because of Morrison's New X-Men
> and Millar's Ultimate X-Men. What I've seen of the other X-books didn't
> impress me at all, and I'm completely uninterested in them. UX-Men is
> set in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, and, presumably, wouldn't be
> included in the proposed X-Men Magazine, which leaves me with only New
> X-Men and a huge price increase to pay for books I don't want.
I think you're thinking too much like a fan, whereas the point of
anthologies would presumably be to attract casual readers. If people are
just looking for a quick read to occupy half an hour, I'm not convinced
they'll be particularly interested in the distinction between the
different titles. Certainly, when I used to read the Marvel UK Spider-man
anthology, I didn't even realise the separate books where by separate
people, let alone attempt to discriminate as to which I preferred. I just
enjoyed reading Spider-man for a couple of hours.
Maybe an analogy with TV shows would be worth mentioning. I think I'm like
most people in that I have no idea who writes most of the shows I watch,
and, although I may notice some stylistic changes from episode to episode,
it's not something I particularly analyse beyond the level of good/bad
episode this week. If casual readers were to approach comics in the same
way, they might be quite happy with an anthology format.
[snip]
>> In addition, this is a format in which advertisers are more likely to
>> place an ad. They know what a magazine is, for starters. I would expect
>> to see the Spider-Man Magazine possessed of a lot more ads. And as long
>> as they're smart about it, I don't see those ads interfering with the
>> content any more than the ads in the current pamphlets.
>
> It's a matter of convincing a wide range of advertisers to purchase
> space in what are widely regarded as children's funny-books, something
> comics have never been able to do. Advertising is where the money is in
> magazine publishing. I've had the impression that comics' money comes
> from sales.
But don't other magazines targeted at children or younger teenagers
attract advertising? Comics have a
>>>That means you're, in effect, raising the price on
>>> fans of each individual book.
>>
>> By all means: Continue publishing the pamphlets as a legacy until they
>> become economically infeasible. As long as there's some content in the
>> magazine which is available only in the magazine, the legacy offering
>> won't be sapping sales from the magazine.
>
> As long as the magazine is primarily reprinting the comics, the comics
> will be sapping sales from the magazine. People aren't going to pay a
> higher price *and* pay it for content they've already read at a lower
> price.
Wouldn't the same argument apply to TPBs, which don't seem to be hurt by
the fact that they are mostly reprints? The point, I take it, is that
anthology books would be targeted at different customers than the 22-page
pamphlets. People who were particularly interested in following one book
might seek out their local comic shop and buy the expensive pamphlets, but
many more will see the (cheaper) anthology on the newsstand, in the same
way TPBs are carving out a market for themselves in bookshops.
This does lead to a potential problem with an anthology format, though. It
seems to me that anthologies work best if books are relatively homogeneous
and disposable, so that you don't get the kind of situation you talk about
above, where someone is interested in the distinctive style of NXM and
doesn't like the very different style of Uncanny. On the other hand,
however, TPBs seem to encourage relatively distinctive titles (because of
their higher price-point) and re-readable storylines (because you
wouldn't tend to buy a book just to throw it away after you've finished).
I'm not sure that a move towards both anthologies and TPBs would be
possible (although I suppose Marvel could publish some anthology titles
and a separate line of TPB titles).
>> But any comic book company which is looking at their monthly pamphlets
>> and thinking "wow, that's where my future is" is deluding itself. At
>> best, the pamphlets represent a way of defraying the costs of
>> developing content for collections.
>
> As I said, the format could be revived--it's simply a matter of will.
What act of 'will' do you think could revive the traditional comic format?
It seems to me the problems it faces are economic, and economics don't
change just because we would like them too. That's why it seems to me so
important for the survival of comics as a medium to think about what
formats are viable.
--
"Don't bother trying to tell me your beliefs,
Your point of view looks pretty screwed to me."
http://ivlenin.web-page.net/
James William Moar
> Wouldn't the same argument apply to TPBs, which don't seem to be hurt by
> the fact that they are mostly reprints? The point, I take it, is that
> anthology books would be targeted at different customers than the 22-page
> pamphlets. People who were particularly interested in following one book
> might seek out their local comic shop and buy the expensive pamphlets, but
> many more will see the (cheaper) anthology on the newsstand, in the same
> way TPBs are carving out a market for themselves in bookshops.
>
> This does lead to a potential problem with an anthology format, though. It
> seems to me that anthologies work best if books are relatively homogeneous
> and disposable, so that you don't get the kind of situation you talk about
> above, where someone is interested in the distinctive style of NXM and
> doesn't like the very different style of Uncanny. On the other hand,
> however, TPBs seem to encourage relatively distinctive titles (because of
> their higher price-point) and re-readable storylines (because you
> wouldn't tend to buy a book just to throw it away after you've finished).
> I'm not sure that a move towards both anthologies and TPBs would be
> possible (although I suppose Marvel could publish some anthology titles
> and a separate line of TPB titles).
Anthologies and TPBs works in Japan. Which doesn't mean it'll necessarily
import, but it shows it *can* work.
Their anthology titles seem to be structured either round a single
subject (where you find some of the Golf Manga, Cooking Manga, and other
subjects you can barely believe till you see them) or around target
audiences. The target audiences are along the lines of "male, young teens,
action-orientated" (Shonen Jump), "male, young teens, light-comedy-orientated"
(Shonen Sunday), "male, teens-to-twenties, offbeat" (Afternoon), and so
on.
All of which does make for homogenous and disposable, sometimes, but also
means that you can put anything that appeals to the target audience in,
without worrying about whether they'll reject it because it hasn't got
mutants in it or whatever. The US version of Shonen Jump has stories about
martial-arts superheroes, card games, ghosts, comedy demons in the desert,
pirates and ninjas. It's not as diverse as its parent title, where one of
the jewels in the crown is a series about Go which is, by most accounts,
excellent.
As for the differences you suggest between anthologies and TPBs -- for
starters, not every title gets TPBed (though many do), and one person's
disposable is another's essential. And even in the english-language
market, it's possible to point to TPBs which sell decently once then go
into the dustbin of history, others that gradually ebb or revive, and
others that are evergreen. That seems to work out OK.
(Handy resource: http://www.kodanclub.com/ -- English-language for a site
from one of the big manga publishers. Includes manga samples, which
convinced me to read NaruTaru/Shadow Star, showed me some intriguing
stuff that's way down the list of things likely to be imported, and
brought home how much bad, generic manga there is.)
--
James Moar
James William Moar
> Their anthology titles seem to be structured either round a single
> subject (where you find some of the Golf Manga, Cooking Manga, and other
> subjects you can barely believe till you see them) or around target
> audiences. The target audiences are along the lines of "male, young teens,
> action-orientated" (Shonen Jump), "male, young teens, light-comedy-orientated"
> (Shonen Sunday), "male, teens-to-twenties, offbeat" (Afternoon), and so
> on.
Another example: "female, mid-thirties, grown-up-romance-orientated" (Be
Love). I meant to add something targeted at women in the original post,
but left it aside since I had to look it up, then forgot. Or because I had
a subconsious fear of looking at the covers after being bitten by a pastel
as a child. Whichever excuse is more believable.
--
James Moar
Billy Bissette
news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1030413154413.13336E-100000@psych:
Again to Japan, the anthologies literally are disposables. They are
made for people to read and toss. The real money comes from the takubon,
or trade paperbacks which collect a specific series.
The anthologies work in part as a way for a company to continually
throw out new ideas (new creations). What is popular will continue and
eventually be collected in a trade. What isn't popular will be dropped
from the anthology when they find something else to try in its space.
Things that are really popular will go on for years, often until the
creator simply ends the story him/herself. Dragonball has 42 trades, and
the series ended when Toriyama had gotten tired of it. Sailor Moon has
18 volumes, and the series ended when she decided to end it. Then you
have things like 3x3 Eyes which has I don't know how many volumes. Or
you get something like Appleseed and its freakin' permanent hiatus while
Shirow writes multiple new series rather than the next freakin' volume!
*grumble* But that one is a personal issue of mine... :p
Marvel could run a combined anthology/trade scheme, but it might require
writing more to that kind of scheme. And one real problem here is that
Marvel hasn't had real success with anthologies in the last couple of
decades. Admittedly, it is in part because Marvel treats them as dumping
grounds.
X-Men Unlimited is the only anthology I can think of that they currently
have, and it fails the anthology/trade scheme. There isn't any consistency
between issues, so there isn't anything to put into a trade (other than
simply putting the whole book into a trade).
Strange Tales would be an example closer to the anthology/trade scheme.
It had consistency between issues. And earlier runs even had shifting
lineups to the book as Marvel tried different characters in different ways.
Plus Marvel even put some of the individual characters into trades as I
recall. The main problem here was that the early runs of Strange Tales
weren't put into trades quickly, and the most recent run of Stange Tales
was pretty much a "dumping ground" with a fairly bad Cloak and Dagger
story, and a Dr. Strange story that didn't look as good as the individual
issues of the Dr. Strange series that followed. Also, Marvel charges
a decent amount of change for their trades, to the point that they can
look like real ripoffs. (Particularly in cases where the trades are much
more expensive than the combined issues.)
Justin Bacon
>I'm not sure that a move towards both anthologies and TPBs would be
>possible (although I suppose Marvel could publish some anthology titles
>and a separate line of TPB titles).
The Japanese do it all the time. The choices of which series end up getting
collected in TPBs is dependent on the success of the title when it appears in
the weekly anthology magazines.
I imagine a person reading and enjoying an anthology title could easily be
directed to collections either of a year's worth of the anthology magazine
(Spider-Man 2003) or individual story lines that were serialized in the
anthology magazine.
And, on a tangent, let's not forget that, for these main characters, Marvel has
an *extensive* backlog of pre-existing material that most people in the
mainstream have never seen before. I can easily see reprinting 1 or 2
"Spider-Man Classics" in the back of a Spider-Man anthology magazine.
Seriously: Spider-Man Magazine, X-Men Magazine, Marvel Universe Magazine,
Marvel Knights Magazine, and an Ultimate Marvel Magazine. Correctly released
and marketed, these could be break-through projects: Tie-ins to movie releases
would provide a huge burst of initial publicity, and their presence in
mainstream locations (where the existing pamphlets are no longer capable of
going) will keep comics in front of a mainstream audience.
DC would easily do magazines for Superman, Batman, the DC Universe, and
Vertigo.
And an Image anthology just called IMAGE could be an anthology title in the
truest sense: Collecting a wide variety of stories from across the Image
imprints.
>What act of 'will' do you think could revive the traditional comic format?
>It seems to me the problems it faces are economic, and economics don't
>change just because we would like them too. That's why it seems to me so
>important for the survival of comics as a medium to think about what
>formats are viable.
Exactly.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Justin Bacon
> Marvel could run a combined anthology/trade scheme, but it might require
>writing more to that kind of scheme. And one real problem here is that
>Marvel hasn't had real success with anthologies in the last couple of
>decades. Admittedly, it is in part because Marvel treats them as dumping
>grounds.
Which is why, off-the-bat, you don't go to the huge expense of creating all-new
material for the product. (The way Marvel did with their previous attempts to
initiate magazine titles.) You collect the existing pamphlets, which the target
market for your magazine aren't going to see, anyway.
It's not the anthology aspect here which is the selling point. It's the
magazine format which opens the mainstream market. An anthology just happens to
be the best way to format the magazine and produce it cheaply (since you're
already paying the development costs for the pamphlets).
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Billy Bissette
> Which is why, off-the-bat, you don't go to the huge expense of
> creating all-new material for the product. (The way Marvel did with
> their previous attempts to initiate magazine titles.) You collect the
> existing pamphlets, which the target market for your magazine aren't
> going to see, anyway.
>
> It's not the anthology aspect here which is the selling point. It's
> the magazine format which opens the mainstream market. An anthology
> just happens to be the best way to format the magazine and produce it
> cheaply (since you're already paying the development costs for the
> pamphlets).
Maybe they should create all-new material for a newsstand anthology.
But it needs to be good material, not things that read like rejected
back-up stories. And there needs to be some good art in it, not stuff
that looks like it was drawn in an afternoon or a book full of knockoffs
of 80s-90s hot artists.
The main reason I say new material though is that Marvel should try
and capitalize off their most well known characters, and most of the
current titles for those characters wouldn't fit that well into a scheme
to draw in new readers.
Put out a single anthology that's running X-Men along with Spiderman
and right now Daredevil and Hulk... Though Daredevil should probably
be dropped after a while unless it caught on with readers. And honestly,
the same with Hulk a few months after the movie. Maybe have a revolving
slot with things like Blade (again, movies) and Fantastic Four (well known)
and such just to remind people about them. Every now and then, they could
sneak in a short run (three issues maybe) with a less popular or known
character, or even a new character. If anthology readers liked them,
then bring them back for a longer run later.
Have the individual parts alternate between multi-issue arcs and
single issue stories.
On the stories themselves, don't actively try to fit them into the
current direct market universe. Go with an X-Men set that people will
recognize, and try to avoid referencing things that happened in the
regular Marvel Universe (but also try to avoid more confusing conflicts).
Have Spiderman simply dating Mary Jane, as that's what the non-direct
market will mostly know. Etc. If direct market people complain, claim
they are imaginary stories. :p And no Ultimate "change for change's
sake" or "change for shock value" gimmicks either. Nor crossovers
between the seperate books in the anthology. (Looking for stories
like you'd see on a new cartoon for said character, not for stories
you'd see in their regular book.)
Put extra pages as character bios or similar little data. Throw in
some Marvel ads, particularly for trades. Put in a letters section,
maybe a few filler pages of various things like movie or game news and
the like, etc... Anything that runs well for a while in the anthology
should be released as a cheap trade, not the overpriced Marvel form.
Anything that isn't popular over a decent period gets dropped (but finish
any arc) and replaced by a different character/team. If it is a keystone
character, you could try them again in a few years with another writer.
Let the writers and artists have leeway on what they write, as long
as they don't break certain tenants. Since it wouldn't be connected to
the current MU, they could get away with more things. If you advertise
a particular creator's run as his/her version of the group, you could
even let them kill off important characters. (Since there would be a
downtime between runs of a character, and it would be tied to and traded
under the creator's view, a future creator could bring back a dead
character without issue.) And the extra leeway on the storytelling
could perhaps get some better quality writers willing to write for it.
I'm sure a few would like almost free reign on a "major" property for
a year, without fear of being kicked off for not playing well with the
MU.
Also, it could be used as a testing ground for new artists and writers.
But don't let the whole anthology be entirely new people. And actually
check people out before they get put on the anthology, don't make it
literally their first assignment, unless they get a filler story that
will run for only an issue or three.
Something like that could have a real chance of working, but I don't see
Marvel ever catching on to exactly what the above would mean. They
probably wouldn't like tying an anthology run of a character to a
particular creator, and particularly probably wouldn't catch onto the
"write for a cartoon/tv show/etc" style (rather than writing for the MU
or writing for the shock of change of the Ultimate Universe). They
probably wouldn't like the anthology not being connected. As for the
direct market not liking it, it wouldn't be directed at them, nor would
it be grooming a future reality to replace the current MU.
James Thomas
have in the last couple of decades. In my youth I can remember picking up
comics at the corner store and having a large selection, now there are
Archie comics and the odd Bongo or some such comics book. I miss being able
to get Superman and the rest from those stores.
Michael Lehmeier
one thing:
The old and often used argument "countries are different, that it works
there does not mean it will work here", which is often used as an excuse
not to start looking, is probably the biggest killer of americas future
comic industry. (apart from the distribution problem, of course)
Black&White comics don't work? Well, we got a couple of black&white
comics over time with decent success but they never became an appeal for
the mass market.
And now there are mangas. They are nothing but mass market. And they are
b&w (usually).
The same goes for the female readership. Despite some decent low-selling
comics with a big appeal to women, they are not the big sellers.
And now there are manga. From what I have seen, there are as many women
buying manga as men, if not more. I personally know two who reguarly
read manga but would never, ever go into a comic store, which has about
the same appeal as a porn shop.
Also shows the inbred-ness of the distribution system.
Here in Germany there is an intermediate between bookstore and
newsstand, called railwaystation-bookstore. Almost every town has one.
They usually have a big selection of easy-reading novels as well as
almost every newspaper and magazine. And almost any comics. The whole
town goes there. Old people, young people, men, women. So everybody can
*see* comics without having to degrade themselves by going into a comic
store.
I am not saying that this would work in the US since they don't seem to
have these railwaystation-bookstores, but they should look for
alternatives that follow this example.
All I am saying: if the current system doesn't work, go elsewhere and
look. Copy and adapt the good examples, ignore the bad.
No publisher would have made comics like mangas in the US. And they
still
don't. But they work, there is no doubt about that.
--
Favorite Comic quotes #15:
Loki: "Art threatening me, youngling?"
Kitty Pride: "You betcha!"
(Asgardian Wars)
Kenmlin
series that are cheap enough to be discarded after reading. This is why mangas
are so popular in Japan. For couple of bucks, Japanese can get 400 pages of
entertainment.
For example, Marvel or DC could publish four monthly anthologies each month,
with another special for fifth week. These will be printed on newsprint paper
without colors and could be sold at newstands and magazine racks. I can't
expect a non-comic bookstore to carry 100 titles from one publishers but
they'll be gladly stock four titles a month. People will then read them during
commute or stick them in their backpack without fear of damaging them because
they are so cheap. A popular series can be collected (and colored if demand
justify it).
There's very little common ground in American comics industry today.
Everything is geared toward high-end collectible market and nothing is done to
attract casual readers.
Ken
Selaboc
> Essentially, what comic industry needs is some sort of low-cost anthology
> series that are cheap enough to be discarded after reading. This is why mangas
> are so popular in Japan. For couple of bucks, Japanese can get 400 pages of
> entertainment.
>
> For example, Marvel or DC could publish four monthly anthologies each month,
> with another special for fifth week. These will be printed on newsprint paper
> without colors and could be sold at newstands and magazine racks. I can't
> expect a non-comic bookstore to carry 100 titles from one publishers but
> they'll be gladly stock four titles a month.
All god points.
> People will then read them during
> commute or stick them in their backpack without fear of damaging them because
> they are so cheap.
Now see, this is one of the big differences between US and countries
like Japan. In Japan, there is a much larger percentage of the
population the daily commutes by train and/or bus to get to school or
work. In America, most people drive (alone) in their Cars. I remember
a few years back when I was going to college, I commuted by train
(because the train station was a few blocks away from both my house at
one end and the campus at the other), but many of my friends drove
thier cars to the campus. And while there were many people no the
train at commute time, I would only ever see a handful (besides
myslef) reading and then it was usually only the newspaper (I usually
had a novel). The point I'm trying to make here is that America, IMHO,
doesn't seem to have the reading during the commute to work/school
culture that other countries seem to have.
> There's very little common ground in American comics industry today.
> Everything is geared toward high-end collectible market and nothing is done to
> attract casual readers.
sadly this is true.
Daniel Butler
The current American comic system is working in the short-term. The people
who make decisions don't care about long term, only next months sales
charts. That's why nothing will get done until it's too late.
Bad decisions are mde about comics all the time. Just look at the various
DC/Marvel explosions and subsequent implosions to realise that comic
publishers are not well managed.
"Michael Lehmeier" <m_leh...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:hot4n-...@radom.de...
Paul O'Brien
Butler <corp...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>The current American comic system is working in the short-term. The
>people who make decisions don't care about long term, only next months
>sales charts.
Well, that's questionable. The stated rationale of the Tsunami launches
- to bring in the manga readership - at least speaks to a medium-term
goal. (Whether it's a realistic way of achieving that goal or not is a
separate question.)
BlakGard
>>backpack without fear of damaging them because they are so cheap.
>
>Now see, this is one of the big differences between US and countries
>like Japan. In Japan, there is a much larger percentage of the
>population the daily commutes by train and/or bus to get to school or
>work. In America, most people drive (alone) in their Cars. I remember
>a few years back when I was going to college, I commuted by train
>(because the train station was a few blocks away from both my house at
>one end and the campus at the other), but many of my friends drove
>thier cars to the campus. And while there were many people no the
>train at commute time, I would only ever see a handful (besides
>myslef) reading and then it was usually only the newspaper (I usually
>had a novel). The point I'm trying to make here is that America, IMHO,
>doesn't seem to have the reading during the commute to work/school
>culture that other countries seem to have.
Agreed. Sadly, I don't think the US has the reading (PERIOD) culture that
other countries seem to have.
-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"