Illuminati - who had which gems?
MarkRRose
lot so far (a one-shot and then two issues in). I like the team.
Spoiler Space
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Second, I was trying to figure out who got what gem (as far as what
color is what). If i'm not mistaken, did Reed Richards keep the power
gem? I would figure that one would go to Namor but i guess not.
Anyone know exactly who got what at the end of that issue?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
teepee
"Rob Hansen" <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote
Since Iron Man is wearing his current armour (and they had him wearing
the correct armour for the era in #1) I'm assuming this story took
place relatevely recently. I wonder if this means the series will be
jumping around in time?
But Xavier had his power so it must be pre-House of M. Some mistake here?
The Black Guardian
> Rob Hansen wrote:
> > Since Iron Man is wearing his current armour (and they had him
> > wearing the correct armour for the era in #1) I'm assuming this
> > story took place relatevely recently. I wonder if this means the
> > series will be jumping around in time?
>
> But Xavier had his power so it must be pre-House of M. Some mistake
> here?
No mistake that I can see.
We know this takes place after SHE-HULK (v3) #10-12. That's the story
in which the gem was taken from Titania. This was shortly before HOUSE
OF M. Xavier wasn't living at the mansion at the time, but there's
nothing to say that he couldn't have paid a visit.
What irks me...
Adam Warlock can't survive long without his gem (the Soul Gem; the
green one). The bond between him and it is that strong. So, are we to
believe that he's dead? How did Reed get the gem from him?
TheWatcherUatu
>
> What irks me...
>
> Adam Warlock can't survive long without his gem (the Soul Gem; the
> green one). The bond between him and it is that strong. So, are we to
> believe that he's dead? How did Reed get the gem from him?
Last seen in THANOS, Warlock still possessed the soul gem. The comic
doesn't state how Reed recovered the soul gem, so it's reasonable to
assume that he might have simply taken it by force from Adam Warlock,
especially if he already possessed two other gems. Seems to be sort of
a dick move, but then again, he would probably deem that the erasure
of the gems from existence probably outweighs Warlock's right to
survival, especially since the mainstream heroes don't really like
Warlock that much anyway. I'll give him that.
I don't know...though I thought this issue was neat, I had some
problems with it. For one thing, how does Reed remember anything from
the Infinity Gauntlet? As I recall, everything was put back exactly as
it was before Thanos started reordering the universe to his liking,
and nobody remembered any of it, except for a handful of more
cosmically attuned (e.g. Quasar, Dr. Strange), who perhaps had some
uncertain tingling in their brain.
Am I wrong?
Tony
--no, you're completely correct.
I do recall one or two instances years after Infinity Gauntlet was
published where characters retained some memories of the event (IIRC,
there was mention of the story in a SheHulk issue).
Though we could chalk it up to Reed acquiring an Infinity Gem, and
giving him the backstory on the gems.
Tony
TheWatcherUatu
Ah, not bad. That's a no-prize-worthy solution, I suppose. The
funniest line in this comic for me--albeit unintentionally funny in
this sense--was Reed's comment to the effect of, "The last time
somebody put the gauntlet together, I ceased to exist." huh? How does
one remember his own lack of existence?
Still, an interesting comic, though I think I may have liked it better
the first time when it was called WARLOCK AND THE INFINITY WATCH.
Steven R. Stahl
The issue was a typical Bendis product: perhaps entertaining to new or
uninvolved readers who like "comic book" stories with characters who
do interesting, sort of sci-fi, things, but full of holes and
contradictions when read by people familiar with the characters and
plot elements.
The worst part of the story was the implication that the Infinity
Gauntlet could be reused. One can infer from "Infinity War" and THANOS
that Eternity can block or has blocked the gems from being used
together. Galactus's use of the gems in THANOS made no sense if, by
using the gems together, he could have simply removed his "need to
eat" instantly. The use of the gauntlet in "Infinity War" also
explains why characters would remember and talk about events in
INFINITY GAUNTLET.
Most of the content was as pointless as the first ILLUMINATI issue
was, since the uses of the gems were only being described in a pseudo
dramatic fashion. Starlin described the gems much more efficiently in
SILVER SURFER #44 and THANOS QUEST #2. But if someone had never read
about the gems before. . .
ILLUMINATI is a story concept in search of plots, but the conflict
with the Avengers/Defenders War is irresolvable (I'm willing to bet
hard cash that Bendis will never touch the Avengers/Defenders War in
ILLUMINATI and that MARVEL will never reprint Englehart's VISION &
SCARLET WITCH maxiseries as a TPB.). NEW AVENGERS had a functional
series premise for the duration of the "Collective" storyline, but now
there isn't one. It remains to be seen if MIGHTY AVENGERS has a series
premise.
I mention the absence of series premises only because the situations
"Civil War" sets up (I didn't buy any issues of CIVIL WAR but have
read summaries) don't seem to be sustainable for a period longer than
months. Turning heroes into villains simply because they oppose the
SRA isn't doable long-term; writers will eventually have to have
villains do villainous things because the stories will need threats
and menaces, however superficial, and those threats and menaces will
render the SRA irrelevant.
If Brevoort or other Marvel editors were to submit to critical
questions about "Civil War," ILLUMINATI and other artistic failures
Marvel has recently published, one could humiliate them--figuratively
rip them to shreds, which is why I expect that no editor will ever
take critical questions about those publications. But what do they
(writers and editors) do when no one can come up with any more ideas
for "Civil War" spin-offs? How important are the crossovers for
quarterly publishing revenue anyway?
SRS
EB
"MarkRRose" <MRose...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:45DCA164...@nyc.rr.com...
Looking at Wikipedia and matching the colors. It looks like this
Reed: Red >>> Power
Namor: Orange >>> Time
Strange: Green >>> Soul
Iron man: Yellow >>> Reality
Black Bolt: Indigo >>> Space
Prof X: Blue >>> Mind
BTW, I thought it was a great story. Much better than the crap that been
out.
I can't believe Bendis wrapped up a story in one issue.
EB
MarkRRose
I agree with you 100 percent on your opinion of the story being great. I
am surprised though, (and thanks for clarifying which gem went to who)
on who got what. Reed with the power gem? Seems like a mis-match, he
should probably have taken the reality gem...or is his control of
reality the reason he won Civil War? :)
Mark
The Black Guardian
> Tony wrote:
>> TheWatcherUatu wrote:
I'd assume that he was informed by outside sources--either someone
told him or the computers in the Four Freedom's Tower/Baxter Building
informed him. It wasn't as if he'd never existed. It was that Thanos
made him (and the rest of FF) go poof.
At the very least, it would be something like when Batman's memory was
wiped by Zatanna--he couldn't account for the time loss.
Another thing... I can't see Strange being happy about being given the
Soul Gem, because he knows that it consumed much of Adam Warlock's
soul.
Tony
--no, you can't.
The Living Tribunal ruled that the gems couldn't be used in unision
again. Unless he overturns his ruling, of someone with greater power
does, then it stands. Still, I can see why the group would be
worried. Even if the Gauntlet can't be used whole, the individual Gems
are incalculably powerful on their own. One could have a couple of
them and decimate a solar system. It makes sense to get them in safe
hands. I did laugh at Reed's "we never, ever use them" line,
especially knowing that the Hulk is about to return.
> Galactus's use of the gems in THANOS made no sense if, by
> using the gems together, he could have simply removed his "need to
> eat" instantly. The use of the gauntlet in "Infinity War" also
> explains why characters would remember and talk about events in
> INFINITY GAUNTLET.
>
> Most of the content was as pointless as the first ILLUMINATI issue
> was, since the uses of the gems were only being described in a pseudo
> dramatic fashion. Starlin described the gems much more efficiently in
> SILVER SURFER #44 and THANOS QUEST #2. But if someone had never read
> about the gems before. . .
--which is entirely possible, given reader turnover since then. I'm
sure the cliffnotes version in Illuminati #2 was sufficient (though a
recap page and footnotes would help the issue a bit).
>
> ILLUMINATI is a story concept in search of plots, but the conflict
> with the Avengers/Defenders War is irresolvable
--this is an honest to god question. No snideness intended.
"Irresolvable" is a word?
> (I'm willing to bet
> hard cash that Bendis will never touch the Avengers/Defenders War in
> ILLUMINATI
--oh, I agree. That's why I don't like the idea of this massive
hidden retcon. I can't wait to see the hidden origin of the Beyonder
next issue.
> and that MARVEL will never reprint Englehart's VISION &
> SCARLET WITCH maxiseries as a TPB.). NEW AVENGERS had a functional
> series premise for the duration of the "Collective" storyline, but now
> there isn't one.
--that remains to be seen. Cap and Iron Man set up Ronin to do
something over in East Asia. It's clear the Avengers are going to be
following up on that, as well as looking into the SHIELD conspiracy.
It would be nice if we got back to the initial premise of the team
trying to take down the Raft escapees.
> It remains to be seen if MIGHTY AVENGERS has a series
> premise.
--a team of really powerful heroes (well some, anyways) functions as
the first response for threats too great for a single hero to handle?
I'm guessing this is the MU answer to Morrison's JLA.
Tony
Tony
--but that's not the same thing. Zee wiped Bruce's mind. Reed ceased
to exist, but that was retroactively undone. There would be no time
loss.
>
> Another thing... I can't see Strange being happy about being given the
> Soul Gem, because he knows that it consumed much of Adam Warlock's
> soul
--another thing is, how can Warlock survive w/out the Soul Gem?
Tony
The Black Guardian
Yeah. I mentioned that above.
Someone on another board told me that The Champion killed Warlock
earlier in the SHE-HULK story arc that's mentioned in this issue. I
didn't read the SHE-HULK story. Anyone know if this is true?
Steven R. Stahl
The Living Tribunal changed its decision re use of the combined
Infinity Gems in "Infinity War" (see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_Gems
), which I had forgotten about, but the THANOS storyline obviously
implied that the ban was back in effect. Since Eternity didn't want
the Infinity Gauntlet to be used, one can assume that the Living
Tribunal enforced its wish.
Yes, "irresolvable" is a word. See
http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/sitesearch?FILTER=col61&query=irresolvable&x=9&y=12
One of the weak points in ILLUMINATI #2 was Richards's "Finding a gem
makes finding the next one categorically more difficult." I assume
Bendis wrote that line. The misuse of "categorically" is similar to
other word usage blunders in NEW AVENGERS. If Bendis has a dictionary,
he needs to use it. He doesn't seem to have the vocabulary one would
expect a professional writer to have.
There were more problems with ILLUMINATI #2 than I mentioned here, but
I didn't want to duplicate my posting at avengersforever.org. One
problem, for example, was the way the plot confused the uses of the
Mind Gem and the Reality Gem. Starlin has weaknesses, but he kept the
functions of the Infinity Gems fairly distinct and easy to understand.
SRS
mimf
Maybe it is this
http://www.leaderslair.com/she-hulk/she-hulkv3-008.html
(I haven't read the issue either)
TheWatcherUatu
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 03:02:17 -0800, The Black Guardian wrote:
> > Tony wrote:
> >> On Feb 23, 5:17?pm, "The Black Guardian" <blakg...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> Another thing... I can't see Strange being happy about being given the
> >>> Soul Gem, because he knows that it consumed much of Adam Warlock's soul
>
> >> --another thing is, how can Warlock survive w/out the Soul Gem?
>
> > Yeah. I mentioned that above.
>
> > Someone on another board told me that The Champion killed Warlock earlier
> > in the SHE-HULK story arc that's mentioned in this issue. I didn't read
> > the SHE-HULK story. Anyone know if this is true?
>
>
> (I haven't read the issue either)
Adam heals himself within the course of the issue, itself, and is
still in possession of the soul gem at the end, when She-Hulk leaves
him to rule, in her absence, the planet she freed.
I'm never sure how to take Slott's She-Hulk stuff. If it weren't for
ILLUMINATI, I'd have probably written off this installment as out of
continuity.
teepee
"MarkRRose" <MRose...@nyc.rr.com> wrote
I agree with you 100 percent on your opinion of the story being great. I
am surprised though, (and thanks for clarifying which gem went to who)
on who got what. Reed with the power gem? Seems like a mis-match, he
should probably have taken the reality gem...or is his control of
reality the reason he won Civil War? :)
iirc the reality and time gems are next to useless without the power gem
backing them up.
Mark
teepee
"The Black Guardian" <blak...@aol.com> wrote
Someone on another board told me that The Champion killed Warlock
earlier in the SHE-HULK story arc that's mentioned in this issue. I
didn't read the SHE-HULK story. Anyone know if this is true?
I read that story and don't recall Warlock getting killed. Maybe I sneezed
and missed it. But the fact that he didn't turn up in the big Annihilation
thing and his girlfriend Gamora was sleeping around and acting like a
nutcase implies something has happened to him. But Warlock survived the
entire Rune miniseries without possessing the soul gem - a period of several
thousand years if I recall correctly - so losing the gem alone wouldn't
account for it. And that whole farce was IIRC written back into continuity
by Starlin himself in his Thanos series.
Eternity re-imposed his 'no gems in unison' edict at the end of the Infintiy
War. But that didn't stop Rune from doing so subsequently. That can be
explained as him being from another cosmos and immune to Eternity's rules.
But did Reed Richards actually successfully use the Infinity Guantlet in
this comic anyway? Arguably not.
Steven R. Stahl
> "MarkRRose" <MRosend...@nyc.rr.com> wrote
Using the Reality Gem in a story is just a matter of the writer coming
up with effects that make sense and don't leave the impression he's
just generating visual effects or engaging in sophomoric
pseudophilosophy. NIGHT MAN #22 featured the Reality Gem being used by
itself to create duplicates of the hero (see, e.g.,
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/7589/nghtmn.html ).
The possible uses of the Time Gem should be fairly obvious: a stasis
effect over a large area, time compression, time elongation, etc. If
the possessor of the Time Gem cared to, he and his family could live
out their lives normally while only hours passed "outside."
SRS
Tony
> ), which I had forgotten about, but the THANOS storyline obviously
> implied that the ban was back in effect. Since Eternity didn't want
> the Infinity Gauntlet to be used, one can assume that the Living
> Tribunal enforced its wish.
--yes, the Tribunal reversed his decision, but by issue 6, Eternity
revealed to the Infinity Watch that "the entity that the Living
Tribunal works for has declared the gems can never be used in unision
again. No matter what the emergency."
That was never reversed on screen.
Tony
Steven R. Stahl
Some potential uses of the Reality Gem probably haven't and won't be
considered because they're too wide-ranging: turning all the ex-
mutants back into mutants, turning somatic mutants into normal humans
(no more Thing, no more Hulk), eliminating paranormal powers
generally, etc. The Reality Gem could be used for any transformation
that's physically possible. Satirical uses would be a radical feminist
transforming all adult men into drones that only exist to serve women,
or a sexist pig turning all adult women into low-intelligence, big-
breasted bimbos. In an SF vein, an alien race could use the gem to
change cosmic constants and transform the universe into one that would
favor, say, energy beings over carbon-based life forms. As far as the
range of possible uses goes, the Reality Gem is the most powerful of
the six.
SRS
Lilith
<syns...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
So, in a fight, who would win? The Reality Gem or the Cosmic Cube?
:-)
>SRS
--
Lilith
YKW '06
communicate as follows:
Triangle Man.
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Steven R. Stahl
(According to Google, this message wasn't sent on the first try, so if
this is a duplicate, blame Google.)
On a more serious note, putting the Reality Gem into play, as
ILLUMINATI #2 did, shows why Starlin never had anyone use the gem by
itself (IIRC) in WARLOCK & THE INFINITY WATCH. The gem creates plot
holes that are practically impossible to eliminate, since the holder
of the gem can just do a reality reset to eliminate changes he doesn't
like (excepting, perhaps, the deaths of characters). If the Hulk
causes trouble upon his return, immediately use the gem to turn him
into Banner permanently. There's no reasonable argument against that.
This latest plotting blunder demonstrates why it's impossible to take
Bendis seriously as a writer. If he can't plot a story like the crime
fiction pieces he loves so much, he doesn't seem to think through
anything in the plot, or just hopes that the holes in the plot won't
be noticed. If the Marvel editors had done their jobs, they would have
recalled that there had been very few stories written about the
Reality Gem, and realized why.
As for the question, if there have been stories written about heroes
using the Cosmic Cube, I haven't seen them, and the reason there
aren't stories is related to the Reality Gem issue. A fight would be
no contest, though, since the holder of the gem could will the Cosmic
Cube out of existence, but the cube's user couldn't do the same, by my
reasoning.
BTW, although some people seem to think that ILLUMINATI #2 is a
complete story, it's not. The story leaves dangling plotlines. I don't
believe Bendis has written a complete Avengers story (in a literary
sense), since he started writing about the characters (the ending of
the Annual story was fatally flawed because the heroes didn't do
anything to defeat Belova). I doubt that he can write a complete
story, unless he copies a plot from a crime fiction story.
SRS
EB
> > >Some potential uses of the Reality Gem probably haven't and won't be
> > >considered because they're too wide-ranging: turning all the ex-
> > >mutants back into mutants, turning somatic mutants into normal humans
> > >(no more Thing, no more Hulk), eliminating paranormal powers
> > >generally, etc. The Reality Gem could be used for any transformation
> > >that's physically possible. Satirical uses would be a radical feminist
> > >transforming all adult men into drones that only exist to serve women,
> > >or a sexist pig turning all adult women into low-intelligence, big-
> > >breasted bimbos. In an SF vein, an alien race could use the gem to
> > >change cosmic constants and transform the universe into one that would
> > >favor, say, energy beings over carbon-based life forms. As far as the
> > >range of possible uses goes, the Reality Gem is the most powerful of
> > >the six.
Which I found incredible that Warlock gave it to Thanos when the gem
were split up.
>
> On a more serious note, putting the Reality Gem into play, as
> ILLUMINATI #2 did, shows why Starlin never had anyone use the gem by
> itself (IIRC) in WARLOCK & THE INFINITY WATCH. The gem creates plot
> holes that are practically impossible to eliminate, since the holder
> of the gem can just do a reality reset to eliminate changes he doesn't
> like (excepting, perhaps, the deaths of characters). If the Hulk
> causes trouble upon his return, immediately use the gem to turn him
> into Banner permanently. There's no reasonable argument against that.
>
Makes sense.
However, didn't Thanos do this in Infinity Gauntlet when he wiped out
half of the universe population?
Reality gem augmented by the Power gem?
> This latest plotting blunder demonstrates why it's impossible to take
> Bendis seriously as a writer. If he can't plot a story like the crime
> fiction pieces he loves so much, he doesn't seem to think through
> anything in the plot, or just hopes that the holes in the plot won't
> be noticed. If the Marvel editors had done their jobs, they would have
> recalled that there had been very few stories written about the
> Reality Gem, and realized why.
Actually, I didn't have a problem with this writing of the Infinity
Gems.
Basically Bendis was saying the use of the Gems is limited by the
user of it. Someone with limited imagination wouldn't use the gem to
its potential.
This is what Starlin has pointed out SEVERAL times in all of his
stories with the gems.
Especially in the Thanos Quest mini:
The fact that the collector had the reality gem and didn't know how to
use it.
The Gardener uses the time gem just for growing and suspending his
flowers.
Runner using the Space gem for getting from point A to point B faster.
Champion for just using the power gem to be "stronger"
The In-betweener...hey, why did the In-betweener have the soul gem?
>
> As for the question, if there have been stories written about heroes
> using the Cosmic Cube, I haven't seen them, and the reason there
> aren't stories is related to the Reality Gem issue. A fight would be
> no contest, though, since the holder of the gem could will the Cosmic
> Cube out of existence, but the cube's user couldn't do the same, by my
> reasoning.
>
> BTW, although some people seem to think that ILLUMINATI #2 is a
> complete story, it's not. The story leaves dangling plotlines. I don't
> believe Bendis has written a complete Avengers story (in a literary
> sense), since he started writing about the characters (the ending of
> the Annual story was fatally flawed because the heroes didn't do
> anything to defeat Belova). I doubt that he can write a complete
> story, unless he copies a plot from a crime fiction story.
When I said a complete story, what I meant was, not a story in the
traditional Bendis style
where a conversation would have taken 5 pages, Reed setting up a
machine would have taken 4 pages,
The part about a crack in reality easliy another 3 pages. (where we
get the crack forming small and getting bigger, taking up
a full page of art work), Prof X, Namor and Strange travels would have
taken another 5, etc.
This could have easiliy been a 6 part story arc. Here we have a story,
granted with loose ends, but the objective of this storyline was for
Reed to get the 6 gems, and it was accomplished in one story.
Really sorry you didn't like this story.
I really thought this was a great Reed Richard story, even better than
what some Reed stories in the pages of FF. A real good grasp of Reed's
personality and drive.
Reed is VERY Machiavellian. More than most people take him for because
he laces it with logic. This was his show and seeing leaders from the
other teams run with it was interesting.
The last two ILLUMINATI stories had Iron Man leading the initiative.
This was nice change.
EB
Patrick
"EB" <dark_wa...@yahoo.cnospam> wrote in message
news:K5JDh.16865$1R1....@fe73.usenetserver.com...
Looks like Xavier might have an 'out' for using powers again.
Patrick
Steven R. Stahl
Giving the Reality Gem to Thanos was just a means of writing the gem
out of the series.
You'd have a point if the Reality Gem hadn't been used in a story
before--if the thrust of the story was that one had to fully
understand the nature of reality in a philosophical sense before he
could attempt to alter that reality. That's not what the Bendis/Reed
piece is about, however, and Bendis's "Avengers Disassembled"
undercuts your contention. Bendis had Wanda use magic to do things
she'd never even thought of trying to do before, although she was a
monomaniac at the time. The effect of the gem on Iron Man in
ILLUMINATI #2--turning his arm into ash--wasn't much different from
what a writer would have had Wanda's hex do to a villain 25 years ago.
If a story is being written for adults, the theme probably won't be
that reality alteration is a complicated process that only people with
doctorates in magic can do well. It will more likely be that one has
to accept reality as it is, and that attempting to alter it magically,
trying to realize a fantasy, is a futile effort. That would be the
theme of satirical treatments: a sexist pig would find that bimbos
might look nice, but doing housework, raising kids, attending to
errands, etc., takes intelligence. Living in a pig sty isn't pleasant.
A radical feminist would find that many women didn't share her views
re maleness and that without men doing things to react angrily to, she
felt deprived, just as many right-wing commentators seem to enjoy
being angered by events in the news. Getting mad is stimulating.
If the story is ((should be) aimed at children, one gets, say, the MS.
MARVEL one-shot. "Suppose that whatever one imagines happens" was the
plot, and that simple plot wasn't worth doing a story about. Writer/
artist Crockett Johnson did a series of books about little Harold and
his magical purple crayon; Johnson's stories were much more effective
than Reed's was, or could be. I don't think Marvel's readers would
react well to a story in which aliens used the Reality Gem or magic to
turn the Earth into a cheese ball with the humans as beef sticks, but
that's what plots such as those in the one-shot lead to. Unless
there's a philosophical point to be made, altering reality is a waste
of time.
SRS