GI JOE - questions, comments
A.Patyk
newsgroup, which I don't get, that'd be great...)
I was just re-reading my collection of G.I. JOE comics, and was once again
impressed by them. The consistent quality of the series (thanks in large
part to the continuing efforts of Larry Hama on the book) is really
impressive. I'm currently in the mid-80s of the series, and I'm actually
enjoying everything even more than the last time I went through the whole
set. I'm also noticing a lot of the (often dark...) subtleties of the
series, such as the recurring revenge themes (and the unfortunate end of
almost everyone who doesn't give up their quest for vengeance). All very
neat stuff. And I don't think many books have achieved the slew of classic
one-liners and great comments and dialogue that JOE has, from its villains
and heroes alike.
My question, aside from just wanting to hear some comments from other fans
about the series, is this: does anyone know exactly how GI JOE ranked,
sales-wise, during its run (maybe from old Comic Shop News issues or the
like)? I'm noticing that most back issue ads from the mid- to late-1980s
have a special GI JOE section emblazoned with "HOTTEST COMIC OF THE 80s" or
"TOP SELLER," etc. How well was GI JOE doing, in the beginning, in its
prime, and at its end? And how about SPECIAL MISSIONS? G.I. JOE must have
been doing well to carry two books for a while.
I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say...
SLWalsh
Y'know, I've never sat down and read GI Joe from start to
finish...I'm sure my already very-very-very-high opinion of the
series would double if I did... ;)
>My question, aside from just wanting to hear some comments from
other fans
>about the series, is this: does anyone know exactly how GI JOE
ranked,
>sales-wise, during its run (maybe from old Comic Shop News
issues or the
>like)? I'm noticing that most back issue ads from the mid- to
late-1980s
>have a special GI JOE section emblazoned with "HOTTEST COMIC OF
THE 80s" or
>"TOP SELLER," etc. How well was GI JOE doing, in the
beginning, in its
>prime, and at its end? And how about SPECIAL MISSIONS? G.I.
JOE must have
>been doing well to carry two books for a while.
I don't know that much about sales, but I do know that,
(a) it *WAS* a top top seller in the 80s. I once read an article
a few years back which said the 2 most important Marvel books of
the 80s were X-Men (who were coming into their own, not quite
the power house they are today, but on the way...) and GI Joe
(which was one of "those toy comics," only this one *really*
worked, and was good to boot)
(b) circa #90, it was still in the top 100 comics (that when I
started buying Wizard, and GI Joe was on the top 100, towards
the bottom usually. A few months later, though, it slipped
underneath #100. So when it ended, it was not a top 100 book.)
Still, the book was basically cancelled because Hasbro wanted
out, not because Marvel said, "Screw this, sales suck, bye bye
Joes." Which is nice, cause usually that's what seems to
happen...
--
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Straight-Edge
because Marvel said, "Screw this, sales suck, bye bye Joes." Which is nice,
cause usually that's what seems to happen...>>
Sadly, it was worse than Hasbro wanting out. GIJoe ended in December of 1994,
the last month of the last year that GIJoe was in production. Since kenner had
taken over the Joe brand, and DXed the toyline in favor of Sgt Savage (which
was most likely going to be a subline of sorts for the regular Joe line before
kenner made it the star attraction *and* made them in a larger, incompatible
size).
When Kenner pulled the toyline, it also pulled the comic. It was a sudden
action, and even Larry was caught off-guard, with the 2 issues before the last
issue being fillers while Larry was on "vacation" from the title. So he
basically had one issue to wrap up a *huge* plot... Suffice it to say, it was
the worst ending a good book could ever have...
Straight-Edge (Trademarked by Lanard Toys, damn them)
SLWalsh
But nonetheless, Larry made a good last issue. While it was
rushed (and it shows, what with the "one issue we're in action,
the next we're shutting down" transition), it was a fine send-
off. Given the time it was written, when the government was
shutting down bases left and right, it worked. And still does...
Still, it would've been nice to have seen the big Cobras (Cobra
Commander, Destro, Mindbender, etc) one last time, instead of
their last appearance being in #151...
Straight-Edge
shows, what with the "one issue we're in action, the next we're shutting down"
government was shutting down bases left and right, it worked. And still
does...>>
The last issue is a masterpiece unto itself, brilliantly recapping eveything I
loved about the comic since 82. It was the only bright point to the Joes since
Wildman left.
>>Still, it would've been nice to have seen the big Cobras (Cobra Commander,
Destro, Mindbender, etc) one last time, instead of their last appearance being
in #151.>>
This is what I meant by the worst ending ever. Hama had only just started his
storyline of "Cobra Reborn", a short arc where Destro, Billy, Zartan, Barness,
and Storm Shadow temporarily returned to Cobra, and instead of that arc ending
with Joe saving them, the book ended with them still loyally and
unquestioningly serving the head snake.
I know it actually gives a realistic bend to the book: that the good guys
*really* dont always win, and sometimes go out losing a hell of a lot (IE, all
the new friends they'd made over the years) but that really wasn't the way it
was suposed to be. And that kills a lot of the wonder the last issue has for
me.
A.Patyk
Straight-Edge wrote in message
<20000811191344...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
>>>Still, it would've been nice to have seen the big Cobras (Cobra
Commander,
>Destro, Mindbender, etc) one last time, instead of their last appearance
being
>in #151.>>
>
>This is what I meant by the worst ending ever. Hama had only just started
his
>storyline of "Cobra Reborn", a short arc where Destro, Billy, Zartan,
Barness,
>and Storm Shadow temporarily returned to Cobra, and instead of that arc
ending
>with Joe saving them, the book ended with them still loyally and
>unquestioningly serving the head snake.
Yeah, that's something I'm not looking forward to in my re-read of the
series. Rescuing Storm Shadow, Billy, and the Baroness would be
considerably simpler than rescuing Zartan and Destro, as the latter's
condition was the result of an actual physical implant and not just
brainwashing. That that storyline was unresolved is one of the many great
crimes involved in GI JOE's cancellation. I was looking forward to a little
"return to roots" era of stories - maybe for even a year or two - with
Zartan and the others working for Cobra, ending with their return to their
true personalities.
>I know it actually gives a realistic bend to the book: that the good guys
>*really* dont always win, and sometimes go out losing a hell of a lot (IE,
all
>the new friends they'd made over the years) but that really wasn't the way
it
>was suposed to be. And that kills a lot of the wonder the last issue has
for
>me.
It's highly unlikely (in an "off-camera" sense) that the Joes left their
companions in that situation. If NOTHING else, you KNOW Snake-Eyes and Jinx
went in to save Storm Shadow and Billy again, orders or no. And with most
of the Joes seemingly being pretty fond of Destro (and wanting to eliminate
the threat an "evil" Destro represents), it seems equally unlikely that they
would leave him (or his companions) to their fate as unwilling Cobra
lackeys.
SLWalsh
>>>But nonetheless, Larry made a good last issue. While it was
rushed (and it
>shows, what with the "one issue we're in action, the next we're
shutting down"
>transition), it was a fine send-off. Given the time it was
written, when the
>government was shutting down bases left and right, it worked.
And still
>does...>>
>
>The last issue is a masterpiece unto itself, brilliantly
recapping eveything I
>loved about the comic since 82. It was the only bright point
to the Joes since
>Wildman left.
>
(Cobra Commander,
>Destro, Mindbender, etc) one last time, instead of their last
appearance being
>in #151.>>
>
>This is what I meant by the worst ending ever. Hama had only
just started his
>storyline of "Cobra Reborn", a short arc where Destro, Billy,
Zartan, Barness,
>and Storm Shadow temporarily returned to Cobra, and instead of
that arc ending
>with Joe saving them, the book ended with them still loyally and
>unquestioningly serving the head snake.
>
good guys
>*really* dont always win, and sometimes go out losing a hell of
a lot (IE, all
>the new friends they'd made over the years) but that really
wasn't the way it
>was suposed to be. And that kills a lot of the wonder the last
issue has for
>me.
I did like Larry's little mention in his farewell essay in #155,
of what he saw the future was of Cobra: all of them bickering in
that Silent Castle, while Destro sits alone, looking into the
sky and remembering the "good ol' days..."
Of course he didn't say it like that, he said it better. But
still...sniff, sob...it was a nice lil' ending, albeit not the
one we should've seen...
Slushfactory.com
G.I. Joe comic book was the first comic book to be advertised with television
commercials.
And keep your fingers crossed, there's always the small possibility that Joe
could come back. I know Larry wants to do it and there are at least a few
people at Marvel that would like to see it.
Of course you still have Hasbro blocking the path. The ex-Bench Press Studios
can attest to that.
-Brian Jacks
------------------
The Slush Factory: Your Home For Comics On The Web. Featuring interviews,
reviews, columns and more at Http://www.slushfactory.com. Visit us today!
A.Patyk
Slushfactory.com wrote in message
<20000812190853...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
>And keep your fingers crossed, there's always the small possibility that
Joe
>could come back. I know Larry wants to do it and there are at least a few
>people at Marvel that would like to see it.
I have read interviews where Larry Hama has said the only way he'd do it is
if he had complete creative control (which he went on to say isn't likely to
ever happen). I would dearly love to see Hama return to this title, as it
is one of the single greatest runs anyone has had, on any book, EVER. As I
grow up further and re-read it periodically, I find that a lot of the
characterization and situations have even more depth and meaning than I
initially perceived. Funny how people who didn't read and understand it
could dismiss it out of hand as a "kiddie book."
>Of course you still have Hasbro blocking the path. The ex-Bench Press
Studios
>can attest to that.
What happened with that? I recall that they were supposed to be bringing
back GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS (with Simon Furman as writer...YAY)...and then
a big, fat NOTHING. Just promises that seemed to become more and more like
disinformation and lies as time went by. What was the deal?
A.Patyk
agitating me for a while, particularly as I re-read the series and
accompanying letters pages.
There's a vocal smattering of letters decrying the "unrealistic" aspects of
GI JOE. I don't know about anyone else, but part of what made GI JOE GI JOE
(and made COBRA COBRA, for that matter) was the edge of "weirdness." Yeah,
Cobra Commander, Destro, and Zartan wear funny masks. But THEY don't think
they're funny. The juxtposition between "real life" and this stuff is part
of what made the book special. Remember when Cobra Commander gets a taxi
cab to the consulate, in costume...?
Plus, most (if not all) of the things in GI JOE that were called "sci-fi"
and "weird" are rapidly becoming scientific reality. I guess Larry Hama has
the last laugh on the "realists," after all. Part of the suspension of
disbelief when looking at COBRA is just how advanced their technology is.
One of the given premises is that they are rapidly developing new and
radical technology which is a step ahead of what's known to the public.
Bearing that in mind, we can now clone sheep and (strangely ageless) cattle.
Given that that is now REALITY (and that's only what we know publically),
why couldn't COBRA attempt to clone a person in a fictional story where
we've already accepted the above mentioned premise? No reason at all.
From the miniaturized holographic projectors that Zartan utilized to the
stealth suits of the Python Patrol, what we know about publicly is catching
up with all the "impossible and unrealistic" bits in GI JOE. Although, to
play devil's advocate, some of the ninja stuff and other things did have
their silly, outlandish moments (esp. toward the end of the run). But, for
example, to the people who called the concept of the government having a
"Ninja Force" ridiculous - is that any more unbelievable than the fact that
the CIA had a special dept. of psychic operatives for two decades? The
latter seem a little more hard to accept than a group of trained martial
artists - but that's the one that's true!
Plus, a lot of people (including, and sometimes unfairly, Larry Hama)
criticized the toy line for coming out with new toys and characters. Well,
without that, we might not have had some of the most enduring and loved
characters and stories of the series! Plus, a lot of the interesting story
developments came about simply because Larry Hama had to think of a way to
work in a new character. I'm certainly not complaining...what if Hasbro
HADN'T had him use Storm Shadow, or Zartan, or whoever...? That's certainly
less desirable than what happened.
Slushfactory.com
>Plus, most (if not all) of the things in GI JOE that were called "sci-fi"
>and "weird" are rapidly becoming scientific reality. I guess Larry Hama has
>the last laugh on the "realists," after all.
I agree. Although I don't think that Joe had too many things that were
unbelievable. Their fighters and military hardware generally followed what we
have today. I mean the Dr. Mindbender's technology is kind of sci-fi-ish but
who's to say it couldn't happen?
Things like the Cobra base that masquerated as a town. We know the Soviets had
things like that in their country where they trained soldiers. So it's not all
that far-fetched.
>Plus, a lot of people (including, and sometimes unfairly, Larry Hama)
>criticized the toy line for coming out with new toys and characters. Well,
>without that, we might not have had some of the most enduring and loved
>characters and stories of the series!
Well, I'm not so sure I agree with you 100% here. Hasbro in the last years of
the property were real bitches. Sure we have to give credit to them for
creating a lot of great characters but as the 90s progressed we and Hama
started having to deal with crap like the Eco-Squad or whatever it was called,
lead by Flint if I'm not mistaken. The multi-colored outfits started to get
really comical and unrealistic.
Hama was at his best when using pseudo-realistic characters in realistic
settings. Such as Snake-Eyes sacrificing all for Scarlett. Things like that.
I can't blame him for getting upset when Hasbro started having him push
insanely-stupid looking characters and stupid equipment.
And on a final note which has nothing to do with the above I wish they could
have made a Destro/Baroness spin-off ongoing series. The issues of him with
his Guard in Scotland where some of the best I've ever seen.
There, I'm done.
-Brian Jacks
Slushfactory.com
>What happened with that? I recall that they were supposed to be bringing
>back GI JOE and TRANSFORMERS (with Simon Furman as writer...YAY)...and then
>a big, fat NOTHING.
Bench Press Studios had Hama lined up to do Joe and Wildman lined up to do
Transformers. Hasbro said they wanted to do it. So Bench laid EVERYTHING out
on the line to try to get these two properties made. I mean they held off
production on their other comics so they could concentrate on this.
So they had proposals and everything. Hasbro kept saying they wanted to do it
and kept scheduling meetings and when Bench would go to them they would find
out at the last minute that they were cancelled. Stuff like that.
Bench had a venture capitalist that would put millions into the company as soon
as the green light was received from Hasbro to start Joe and Transformers.
When Hasbro kept dragging their feat in somewhat lies and deception the VC
dropped out and Bench had no choice but to go out of business.
This is all paraphrasing but this is the way I understood it when the former
art director for Bench posted on a Joe mailing list.
-Brian Jacks
------------------------
fan
"Slushfactory.com" wrote:
> >From: "A.Patyk" paty...@pilot.msu.edu
>
> >Plus, most (if not all) of the things in GI JOE that were called "sci-fi"
> >and "weird" are rapidly becoming scientific reality. I guess Larry Hama has
> >the last laugh on the "realists," after all.
>
> I agree. Although I don't think that Joe had too many things that were
> unbelievable. Their fighters and military hardware generally followed what we
> have today.
I agree. It's not just that cloning is becoming a commonplace;
we're living in an altogether sci-fi world. As I write this, NASA
is planning a Mars landing. It's a routine mission; they're sending
a couple of robots.
Robots. On Mars. Mars gets sent a pair of robots via spaceship
and nobody even thinks twice about it anymore?
I mean, okay, giant space lasers that shoot down incoming missiles,
that's the near future; radar-invisible planes, they've been around for
quite some time; but . . . ROBOTS on MARS is the present?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a little jarring?
Dave Potter
>is planning a Mars landing. It's a routine mission; they're sending
>a couple of robots.
Well, that's hardly a new development in terms of when GI Joe came out
(launched in 1984 or 85, IIRC), because NASA successfully landed VIKING 1 and
VIKING 2 on the Red Planet in the 1970's.
.
Read Comics and Become Cool
www.savantmag.com
fan
Dave Potter wrote:
> > As I write this, NASA
> >is planning a Mars landing. It's a routine mission; they're sending
> >a couple of robots.
>
> Well, that's hardly a new development in terms of when GI Joe came out
> (launched in 1984 or 85, IIRC), because NASA successfully landed VIKING 1 and
> VIKING 2 on the Red Planet in the 1970's.
Wow. So now I'm not only feeling out-of-touch, but
*really* out-of-touch. :-) But the giant space lasers
are still pretty much cutting-edge, right?
A.Patyk
Slushfactory.com wrote in message
<20000815033729...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
>>From: "A.Patyk" paty...@pilot.msu.edu
>
>>Plus, most (if not all) of the things in GI JOE that were called "sci-fi"
>>and "weird" are rapidly becoming scientific reality. I guess Larry Hama
has
>>the last laugh on the "realists," after all.
>
>unbelievable. Their fighters and military hardware generally followed what
we
but
>who's to say it couldn't happen?
Exactly. Technically, it has been happening, what with all the recent news
about cloning. And, bearing in mind that that's the stuff that is PUBLIC
knowledge...I'm going to say it was definitely not overly unrealistic for
Dr.Mindbender to do what he did in GI JOE. Quite the opposite, in fact...I
ultimately think GI JOE maintained realism (in the context of its
established parameters) very well over the course of the series.
>>Plus, a lot of people (including, and sometimes unfairly, Larry Hama)
>>criticized the toy line for coming out with new toys and characters.
Well,
>>without that, we might not have had some of the most enduring and loved
>>characters and stories of the series!
>
>Well, I'm not so sure I agree with you 100% here. Hasbro in the last years
of
>the property were real bitches. Sure we have to give credit to them for
>creating a lot of great characters but as the 90s progressed we and Hama
>started having to deal with crap like the Eco-Squad or whatever it was
called,
>lead by Flint if I'm not mistaken. The multi-colored outfits started to
get
>really comical and unrealistic.
Oh, obviously the neon-colored rejects were not the finest hour of GI JOE.
I was definitely not a fan of any of THAT crap...but I was thrilled by the
earlier additions, when Hasbro was still creating some of the best Joes and
Cobras. If it was a choice between not having ANY of the toy characters
pushed into the series (like Zartan...Mindbender...Serpentor) and what we
ended up with, I'll choose the latter. Taking the good with the bad, so to
speak. I just wish Hasbro had realized that those idiotic neon colors were
ruining the line (and, by proxy, the comic). Oh, and Eco-Warriors was NOT
all bad - it did produce a great new main Cobra characters, CEO-turned-Cobra
Cesspool...
>Hama was at his best when using pseudo-realistic characters in realistic
>settings. Such as Snake-Eyes sacrificing all for Scarlett. Things like
that.
>I can't blame him for getting upset when Hasbro started having him push
>insanely-stupid looking characters and stupid equipment.
Again, agreed that the end of the JOE line had a MASS of stupid-looking,
garish, idiotic figures and vehicles. But that all happened pretty late in
the game. I just can't abide people complaining about Serpentor, Zartan and
his siblings, Dr.Mindbender, Raptor, etc. The person who doesn't like them
might as well complain about Cobra Commander and Destro, because they're
missing the point...
>And on a final note which has nothing to do with the above I wish they
could
>have made a Destro/Baroness spin-off ongoing series. The issues of him
with
>his Guard in Scotland where some of the best I've ever seen.
Sadly, licensing rights would no doubt have made that an impossibility, even
if it were an option. But, it's certainly a cool idea...tell me Zartan
couldn't carry his own book!
A.Patyk
Slushfactory.com wrote in message
<20000815210920...@ng-bg1.aol.com>...
>>From: fan I'mn...@thisaddress.com
>
>>Wow. So now I'm not only feeling out-of-touch, but
>>*really* out-of-touch. :-) But the giant space lasers
>>are still pretty much cutting-edge, right?
>
are
>trained on the US. Hmm...Cuba...Cobra? Nah.
>
Hmm. "Cuuuuubaaaaaaaa!"
Maybe not.
Let's not forget that the Russians actually had some kind of generators that
emitted ultra-sonic frequency waves (the purpose of which is still, I think,
unknown) they were experimenting with ...weird.
Slushfactory.com
>Wow. So now I'm not only feeling out-of-touch, but
>*really* out-of-touch. :-) But the giant space lasers
>are still pretty much cutting-edge, right?
Actually I believe the Cuban government has deployed huge space lasers that are
trained on the US. Hmm...Cuba...Cobra? Nah.
-Brian Jacks
SLWalsh
"A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> Slushfactory.com wrote in message
> <20000815033729...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
> >>From: "A.Patyk" paty...@pilot.msu.edu
> >
called "sci-fi"
> >>and "weird" are rapidly becoming scientific reality. I guess Larry
Hama
> has
> >>the last laugh on the "realists," after all.
> >
were
> >unbelievable. Their fighters and military hardware generally
followed what
> we
> >have today. I mean the Dr. Mindbender's technology is kind of sci-
fi-ish
> but
> >who's to say it couldn't happen?
>
> Exactly. Technically, it has been happening, what with all the
recent news
> about cloning. And, bearing in mind that that's the stuff that is
PUBLIC
> knowledge...I'm going to say it was definitely not overly unrealistic
for
> Dr.Mindbender to do what he did in GI JOE. Quite the opposite, in
fact...I
> ultimately think GI JOE maintained realism (in the context of its
> established parameters) very well over the course of the series.
Y'know, reading how people rationalize some of the "silly" things makes
them look...realistic.
Like Dr. Mindbender's return: at the time, that was f'n lame. But now,
since this type of technology, while not in mainstream use, seems
possible...it ain't that lame anymore.
The art could've been much better, but the concept seems okay...
> Oh, and Eco-Warriors was NOT
> all bad - it did produce a great new main Cobra characters, CEO-
turned-Cobra
> Cesspool...
Cesspool was a "great new" character? He was okay, but of all the
origins, his seemed the most...comic book-ish. Man, it seems so wierd
to say it like that, but goes with the flow of this realistic-themed
post.
--
Sean's Comic Library
http://www.mponte.com/sean
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
A.Patyk
SLWalsh wrote in message <8ncs8m$9h3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Like Dr. Mindbender's return: at the time, that was f'n lame. But now,
>since this type of technology, while not in mainstream use, seems
>possible...it ain't that lame anymore.
Exactly. And one would expect Cobra to have had technology far in advance
of what's available, anyway.
>The art could've been much better, but the concept seems okay...
The art at the end of GI JOE could get a whole thread unto itself...it just
never seemed like GI JOE after Wildman left, as far as I'm concerned. The
costumes lacked detail and everything just looked downright...I
dunno...Image-y, or something. Like the standard bad art of the early to
mid-90s. It was really agitating when they would have flashback stories and
Cobra troopers would be illustrated wearing outfits they hadn't developed
yet...argh. My personal favorite artist of the series was M.D.
Bright...with Emberlin inking, he really ran the show...Ron Wagner and Andy
Wildman did excellent jobs, as well...
>Cesspool was a "great new" character? He was okay, but of all the
>origins, his seemed the most...comic book-ish. Man, it seems so wierd
>to say it like that, but goes with the flow of this realistic-themed
>post.
His origin was more comic book-ish than Dr.Mindbender's
"dentist-gone-insane" origin? Heh, heh. I think Cesspool's origin ended up
looking cheesy when presented because of the stilted "triptych" story it
appeared in. It seemed like it had to be condensed to go with the "panel of
this story, panel of that story" format they were using there. Either way,
I thought the concept of a CEO turned Cobra terrorist was just great( and
really fit the Cobra motif), plus he got to spew some great "businessman"
dialogue throughout the series...
SLWalsh
"A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> SLWalsh wrote in message <8ncs8m$9h3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >Like Dr. Mindbender's return: at the time, that was f'n lame. But
now,
> >since this type of technology, while not in mainstream use, seems
> >possible...it ain't that lame anymore.
>
> Exactly. And one would expect Cobra to have had technology far in
advance
> of what's available, anyway.
True, true...
> >The art could've been much better, but the concept seems okay...
>
> The art at the end of GI JOE could get a whole thread unto itself...
...and I think it has (and of course I've commented in it a few times
myself...) ;p
> it just
> never seemed like GI JOE after Wildman left, as far as I'm
concerned. The
> costumes lacked detail and everything just looked downright...I
> dunno...Image-y, or something. Like the standard bad art of the
early to
> mid-90s.
Phil Gosier's stuff was good, I thought. Definitely not Wildman, but
better than his immediate predecessors. Between he and Wildman was
literal crap...although Tom "Spectre" Mandrake did part of the Madame
Umbra issue, which I was shocked to see; that story was crap (cause it
wasn't by Hama) but the art for the flashback part of the story (which
Mandrake did) was decent...
Marvel (or Hasbro...or both) was crazy to get Wildman off that book...
:(
> It was really agitating when they would have flashback stories and
> Cobra troopers would be illustrated wearing outfits they hadn't
developed
> yet...argh.
Oh good; someone else has noticed that. IIRC, there was a Snake-Eyes
flashback story that featured Vipers. Note that Vipers weren't around
until somewhere in the #50's.
My personal favorite artist of the series was M.D.
> Bright...with Emberlin inking, he really ran the show...Ron Wagner
and Andy
> Wildman did excellent jobs, as well...
I started picking up the book when Wagner was onboard. Marshall Rogers'
art...never clicked with me at first, but I never hated it; I likeit
*way* more now. And of course Mark Bright was just great. Rod Whigham,
who did a storyline just before Wildman began, did a okay job with that
one, but his earlier stuff was great. Emberlin was the man, but when
Wildman started, it...looked okay. When Baskerville came onboard to ink
Wildman, it was even better...
> >Cesspool was a "great new" character? He was okay, but of all the
> >origins, his seemed the most...comic book-ish. Man, it seems so wierd
> >to say it like that, but goes with the flow of this realistic-themed
> >post.
>
> His origin was more comic book-ish than Dr.Mindbender's
> "dentist-gone-insane" origin? Heh, heh. I think Cesspool's origin
ended up
> looking cheesy when presented because of the stilted "triptych" story
it
> appeared in. It seemed like it had to be condensed to go with
the "panel of
> this story, panel of that story" format they were using there.
Either way,
> I thought the concept of a CEO turned Cobra terrorist was just great(
and
> really fit the Cobra motif), plus he got to spew some
great "businessman"
> dialogue throughout the series...
That's true. I personally never cared for Cesspool or the Eco-Warriors,
so I guess that's my reason for my underwhelming opinion of the guy...
I consider Dr. Mindbender's origin to be too damn silly, creative and
hilarious to be considered a normal comic book-ish origin... ;p
OneMonk909
terrorism they've just moved on to health insurance. I recently switched jobs,
and when my previous employer's insurance ran out I had the option of
continuing it through Cobra insurance. Let me tell you, they were asking for
more money than a few other insurance companies combined. Surely the work of
Cobra Commander. I can hear him now: "We've fooled someone else into paying
our outrageous fees!! Cooooobraaaa!!!"
Slushfactory.com
>
>Actually, Cobra has survived into the present day...instead of dealing in
>world
>terrorism they've just moved on to health insurance.
What a coincidence. I mean with the recent discovery of the new Cobra
front-organization being the RIAA.
-Brian Jacks
------------------------
A.Patyk
>In article <8nd6vo$26ca$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
>> Exactly. And one would expect Cobra to have had technology far in
>advance
>> of what's available, anyway.
>
Side note that has to do with this cloning/Cobra stuff: it's rapidly
becoming MUCH more of a reality. Britain has just become the first country
to rescind the ban on experiments involving the cloning of HUMAN cells.
Hmm...Arise, Serpentor, Arise...heh heh.
>Phil Gosier's stuff was good, I thought. Definitely not Wildman, but
>better than his immediate predecessors. Between he and Wildman was
>literal crap...although Tom "Spectre" Mandrake did part of the Madame
>Umbra issue, which I was shocked to see; that story was crap (cause it
>wasn't by Hama) but the art for the flashback part of the story (which
>Mandrake did) was decent...
Gosier wasn't a bad artist, I just didn't think it was suited to the book.
Maybe the inking had a lot to do with it...everything seemed too cartoony,
glossy, and lacking detail. That seems to be part of inker Chip Wallace's
style, even over the other fill-in artists he inked. I'm taking a look at
issue #145 right now (GAH! They shot Magda and the White Clown...!) to
make sure I'm getting a good look at Gosier's stuff...yep, looks too
cartoony. Lots of potential but the faces, body postures, and backgrounds
kill it. Plus, the coloring is WAY too bright and out-of-place. It was a
HARD come-down from guys like Bright, Wagner, and Wildman - but definitely a
step-up from the totally inappropriate fill-ins.
And, yeah, like most non-Hama fill-ins, that Madame Umbra story just didn't
do it for me.
>Marvel (or Hasbro...or both) was crazy to get Wildman off that book...
>:(
Any idea why that was...?! Why ditch the best artist they had for a
while...?
>> It was really agitating when they would have flashback stories and
>> Cobra troopers would be illustrated wearing outfits they hadn't
>developed
>> yet...argh.
>
>Oh good; someone else has noticed that. IIRC, there was a Snake-Eyes
>flashback story that featured Vipers. Note that Vipers weren't around
>until somewhere in the #50's.
Yeah, #144 was the flashback. It's supposed to take place before #1, but
has Tele-Vipers, Vipers, and a Toxo-Viper (miscolored, to boot!), of all
things. Urk.
>I started picking up the book when Wagner was onboard. Marshall Rogers'
>art...never clicked with me at first, but I never hated it; I likeit
>*way* more now. And of course Mark Bright was just great. Rod Whigham,
>who did a storyline just before Wildman began, did a okay job with that
>one, but his earlier stuff was great. Emberlin was the man, but when
>Wildman started, it...looked okay. When Baskerville came onboard to ink
>Wildman, it was even better...
Yeah, Marshall Rogers didn't do too much for me. His art wasn't bad, but he
seemed to have a poor grasp of figures in motion that made everything look a
little stilted. Rod Whigham's stuff really epitomizes a certain "GI JOE"
feel (esp. from around the #50s), so it's always nice to see him work on the
book, although I really ultimately would rather see Bright/Emberlin.
Wildman/Baskerville, or Wagner/Emberlin work on the book.
>> I thought the concept of a CEO turned Cobra terrorist was just great(
>and
>> really fit the Cobra motif), plus he got to spew some
>great "businessman"
>> dialogue throughout the series...
>
>That's true. I personally never cared for Cesspool or the Eco-Warriors,
>so I guess that's my reason for my underwhelming opinion of the guy...
At least when Hama introduced the Eco-Warriors, he pointed out how silly the
characters themselves found it. "I can also infer from the garish hues of
your outfits that this is not a covert operation!" Plus the not-so-subtle
jab at Hasbro that Larry threw in, "It's sludge-repellent as well as being
made from recycled action figures!"
Still, Cesspool grew on me quickly, as he was by far the coolest-looking of
that group in addition to having a neat background angle. I rank him up
there with the other Cobra elite.
Side-note from around this era: didn't it seem like Hama sold Firefly out as
a punk bitch? They spent all this time building him up as a fearsome ninja
master...then had him quivering like a little girl with a skinned knee at
ever opportunity.
>I consider Dr. Mindbender's origin to be too damn silly, creative and
>hilarious to be considered a normal comic book-ish origin... ;p
Oh, I agree. I don't mind any of that stuff. I'm just saying that, in
principle, Cesspool also has a super and appropriate origin: corrupt
businessman who has turned into a terrorist that sells recycled toxic waste
as a weapon. Too cool...
SLWalsh
"A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
> SLWalsh wrote in message <8ndujr$esd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <8nd6vo$26ca$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> >advance
> >> of what's available, anyway.
> >
>
> Side note that has to do with this cloning/Cobra stuff: it's rapidly
> becoming MUCH more of a reality. Britain has just become the first
country
> to rescind the ban on experiments involving the cloning of HUMAN
cells.
> Hmm...Arise, Serpentor, Arise...heh heh.
Let's just hope some British leader doesn't slip some chemical into the
process, resulting in some giant hideously-ugly red creature to emerge
instead. Unlike the toon, I seriously doubt anyone would be able to
stop it quick enough...and definitely not Sgt. Slaughter...unless he
brought a steel chair and a few pals from the WWF with him.
Yeah, the inking wasn't all that great. But there was one issue or so
(I forget off the top of my head which one) were the inking made
everything look more decent than usual.
I'm thinking Gosier's style could've worked in a different time period
(perhaps when the cartoon was still on the air), to give the book a
similar look to the show. Or maybe not...
Plus I'm sure since then the guy's art has gotten better...if we lived
in a fantasy world (where I do live sometimes), GI Joe would still be
published and we could see that better art... ;p
> And, yeah, like most non-Hama fill-ins, that Madame Umbra story just
didn't
> do it for me.
>
> >Marvel (or Hasbro...or both) was crazy to get Wildman off that
book...
> >:(
>
> Any idea why that was...?! Why ditch the best artist they had for a
> while...?
All I've heard is that he probably didn't leave on his own... :(
> >> It was really agitating when they would have flashback stories and
> >> Cobra troopers would be illustrated wearing outfits they hadn't
> >developed
> >> yet...argh.
> >
> >Oh good; someone else has noticed that. IIRC, there was a Snake-Eyes
> >flashback story that featured Vipers. Note that Vipers weren't around
> >until somewhere in the #50's.
>
> Yeah, #144 was the flashback. It's supposed to take place before #1,
but
> has Tele-Vipers, Vipers, and a Toxo-Viper (miscolored, to boot!), of
all
> things. Urk.
And don't tell me (I used to remember this, so bear with me): those
Toxo-Vipers were the newer Eco-Warriors designs, right? ;p
> >I started picking up the book when Wagner was onboard. Marshall
Rogers'
> >art...never clicked with me at first, but I never hated it; I likeit
> >*way* more now. And of course Mark Bright was just great. Rod
Whigham,
> >who did a storyline just before Wildman began, did a okay job with
that
> >one, but his earlier stuff was great. Emberlin was the man, but when
> >Wildman started, it...looked okay. When Baskerville came onboard to
ink
> >Wildman, it was even better...
>
> Yeah, Marshall Rogers didn't do too much for me. His art wasn't bad,
but he
> seemed to have a poor grasp of figures in motion that made everything
look a
> little stilted. Rod Whigham's stuff really epitomizes a certain "GI
JOE"
> feel (esp. from around the #50s), so it's always nice to see him work
on the
> book, although I really ultimately would rather see Bright/Emberlin.
> Wildman/Baskerville, or Wagner/Emberlin work on the book.
Yes, yes and yes. Other artists of note...
- Herb Trimpe. How can we forget him? Early on, it looked good. As did
his stuff in Special Missions at first. But as time passed (and this
all culminated in a fill-in he did just before Wildman started), his
art was...okay. You could tell it was Herb Trimpe, and it...wasn't as
good as it used to be. FYI, the last pieces of art I saw him do were
just awful; seems he was trying to imitate Rob Liefeld's art...ugh...
- Mike Vosburg. Never really liked his art. The more I've seen it on
other books over the years, the more I agree to that statement.
- Tony Salmons. I've heard people *HATE* his art. It was fine by me,
but I've definitely seen better...
- John Statema. His gritty style was perfect for the period he did the
art (the Trucial Abysma War): not clean and refined, a little messy
(inking wise, mostly), but good. I recall some "deformed" looking
figures and poses, but it was good stuff.
> >> I thought the concept of a CEO turned Cobra terrorist was just
great(
> >and
> >> really fit the Cobra motif), plus he got to spew some
> >great "businessman"
> >> dialogue throughout the series...
> >
> >That's true. I personally never cared for Cesspool or the Eco-
Warriors,
> >so I guess that's my reason for my underwhelming opinion of the
guy...
>
> At least when Hama introduced the Eco-Warriors, he pointed out how
silly the
> characters themselves found it. "I can also infer from the garish
hues of
> your outfits that this is not a covert operation!" Plus the not-so-
subtle
> jab at Hasbro that Larry threw in, "It's sludge-repellent as well as
being
> made from recycled action figures!"
Wow. I just remembered, and got, that statement...! ;)
> Still, Cesspool grew on me quickly, as he was by far the coolest-
looking of
> that group in addition to having a neat background angle. I rank him
up
> there with the other Cobra elite.
>
> Side-note from around this era: didn't it seem like Hama sold Firefly
out as
> a punk bitch? They spent all this time building him up as a fearsome
ninja
> master...then had him quivering like a little girl with a skinned
knee at
> ever opportunity.
Firefly as a "punk bitch." Huh. That's a new one.
I think Hama was mimmicking Cobra Commander with the "new" Firefly. I
can see CC doing a lot of what Firefly did.
I always wondered what Hama did with Firefly after leaving him at the
hands of Slice, Dice and the red ninjas. We never do see him again
after that story...
> >I consider Dr. Mindbender's origin to be too damn silly, creative and
> >hilarious to be considered a normal comic book-ish origin... ;p
>
> Oh, I agree. I don't mind any of that stuff. I'm just saying that,
in
> principle, Cesspool also has a super and appropriate origin: corrupt
> businessman who has turned into a terrorist that sells recycled toxic
waste
> as a weapon. Too cool...
--
Dwight Williams
>
> - Herb Trimpe. How can we forget him? Early on, it looked good. As did
> his stuff in Special Missions at first. But as time passed (and this
> all culminated in a fill-in he did just before Wildman started), his
> art was...okay. You could tell it was Herb Trimpe, and it...wasn't as
> good as it used to be. FYI, the last pieces of art I saw him do were
> just awful; seems he was trying to imitate Rob Liefeld's art...ugh...
I think there was that _NY Times_ piece -- the copyright of which got
violated here in this newsgroup, if memory serves -- that addressed some
of the behind-the-scenes stuff related to that, wasn't there?
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Maintainer/Founder - DEOList for _Chase_ Fandom
Personal Web Site: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my postings on Usenet, *not* any dot-com site!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SLWalsh
ad...@freenet.carleton.ca wrote:
> SLWalsh wrote:
> >
> > - Herb Trimpe. How can we forget him? Early on, it looked good. As
did
> > his stuff in Special Missions at first. But as time passed (and this
> > all culminated in a fill-in he did just before Wildman started), his
> > art was...okay. You could tell it was Herb Trimpe, and it...wasn't
as
> > good as it used to be. FYI, the last pieces of art I saw him do were
> > just awful; seems he was trying to imitate Rob Liefeld's
art...ugh...
>
> violated here in this newsgroup, if memory serves -- that addressed
some
> of the behind-the-scenes stuff related to that, wasn't there?
Huh?! What's this all about, Dwight? I've heard talk of this topic (the
Liefeld-ish art) before, but a Times piece...?
Unless that's the thing Trimpe wrote not that long ago (after he was
let go by Marvel) about his tenure there...if so, I'm still drawing a
bit of a blank on what exactly it was about...
Sean...
say Dwight, don't you owe me some file or somethin'...? ;p
A.Patyk
SLWalsh wrote in message <8ngj9i$h2e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8ng5l7$4gm$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> "A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>Let's just hope some British leader doesn't slip some chemical into the
>process, resulting in some giant hideously-ugly red creature to emerge
>instead. Unlike the toon, I seriously doubt anyone would be able to
>stop it quick enough...and definitely not Sgt. Slaughter...unless he
>brought a steel chair and a few pals from the WWF with him.
Are you kidding? Sgt. Slaughter could handle it all by himself! The man's
the world's only real G.I. JOE, for cryin' out loud! :)
>I'm thinking Gosier's style could've worked in a different time period
>(perhaps when the cartoon was still on the air), to give the book a
>similar look to the show. Or maybe not...
I don't know...the show's art (at least for the first few years, before they
switched to cheaper animation) was very consistently detailed and
non-cartoony, actually. Phil's was a little less detailed than I'd like.
Rod Whigham was about as "cartoony" as I liked to see the book get. He
straddled the line pretty well. Strangely, I think the Emberlin inks on
Whigham's Destro:Search and Destroy story didn't mesh with his art.
Emberlin is consistently good over everyone else, but I prefered Whigham's
work when he teamed with Mushynsky during the #50's...
>Plus I'm sure since then the guy's art has gotten better...if we lived
>in a fantasy world (where I do live sometimes), GI Joe would still be
>published and we could see that better art... ;p
Ah...I think I know that place. It's where GI Joe still fights Cobra,
Destro and the others have been reverted to their former selves (after a fun
stint in their old Cobra jobs), Snake-Eyes and Scarlett live happily ever
after, and...
>> Yeah, #144 was the flashback. It's supposed to take place before #1,
>but
>> has Tele-Vipers, Vipers, and a Toxo-Viper (miscolored, to boot!), of
>all
>> things. Urk.
>
>And don't tell me (I used to remember this, so bear with me): those
>Toxo-Vipers were the newer Eco-Warriors designs, right? ;p
Right. They not only got the ERA entirely wrong for a Toxo-Viper even
existing, they also put him in a LATER version of the Toxo-Viper suit...and
then COLORED IT WRONG! They definitely messed up on THAT one...
>- Herb Trimpe. How can we forget him? Early on, it looked good. As did
>his stuff in Special Missions at first. But as time passed (and this
>all culminated in a fill-in he did just before Wildman started), his
>art was...okay. You could tell it was Herb Trimpe, and it...wasn't as
>good as it used to be. FYI, the last pieces of art I saw him do were
>just awful; seems he was trying to imitate Rob Liefeld's art...ugh...
Yeah, Herb Trimpe had a lot of talent, but was often hit or miss. Looking
at his work, for example, on SM #2, it looks really good. But then there
were times that it just didn't work.
>- Mike Vosburg. Never really liked his art. The more I've seen it on
>other books over the years, the more I agree to that statement.
Remind me - what issues did he do...?
>- Tony Salmons. I've heard people *HATE* his art. It was fine by me,
>but I've definitely seen better...
I liked his art. He did decent, realistic detail and people in action.
Plus, the man was just BORN to draw Roadblock. I think his depiction of
that character is the definitive one...although he couldn't draw a hot
Zarana. And during later stints his art grew a little more...avant garde,
shall we say...? He ended up drawing a pretty super-deformed Zartan, among
others...
>- John Statema. His gritty style was perfect for the period he did the
>art (the Trucial Abysma War): not clean and refined, a little messy
>(inking wise, mostly), but good. I recall some "deformed" looking
>figures and poses, but it was good stuff.
I enjoyed his stuff, too, for the most part. Certain things bothered me,
like the poses you mentioned - a lot of times his action poses seemed stiff
and unrealistic (e.g. the opening of #109, when the Crimson Twins are
stomping Duke).
Speaking of Trucial Abysmia...didn't the stupid cover copy ("BODY COUNT: 7
AND CLIMBING") ruin the drama of the deaths a little bit...?
Somewhere in there, Paul Ryan did an issue (#85, I think). I would love to
see Paul Ryan TODAY work on GI JOE...I like a lot of what he's been doing
lately.
>Firefly as a "punk bitch." Huh. That's a new one.
Not if you listen to what Cobra Commander has to say about him...! Heh...
>I think Hama was mimmicking Cobra Commander with the "new" Firefly. I
>can see CC doing a lot of what Firefly did.
True. His plan was decent (if a little over-dramatized by his running
commentary..."And now...I will destroy everyone...with my army of BATs and
zombified ninjas! BWAHHAHA!"), but it just seemed like Hama didn't give him
the warrior props he deserved. He's a Koga ninja master, one of the best
saboteur/infiltrators in the world, AND a half-decent strategist. Yet it
seemed as if all he could do was quake in his boots whenever Snake-Eyes
looked at him. Of course, this is part of the problem of the over-playing
of Snake-Eyes' abilties, which escalated alarmingly in the later period of
the book...I still have painful flashbacks about that whole "Scorpion
Formation" fiasco...arrg...
>I always wondered what Hama did with Firefly after leaving him at the
>hands of Slice, Dice and the red ninjas. We never do see him again
>after that story...
It's mentioned that Firefly managed to escape from Slice and Dice, but,
other than that, we don't see or hear from him again. No doubt, like most
people who have tried to betray and kill Cobra Commander (and who CC, in
turn, has tried to betray and kill), they eventually chalked it up as even
and went back to the mutual pursuit of fiscal empowerment motivated by
rational greed. Cobra is, after all is said and done, all about the
Benjamins...so to speak.
SLWalsh
"A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> SLWalsh wrote in message <8ngj9i$h2e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
did
> >his stuff in Special Missions at first. But as time passed (and this
> >all culminated in a fill-in he did just before Wildman started), his
> >art was...okay. You could tell it was Herb Trimpe, and it...wasn't as
> >good as it used to be. FYI, the last pieces of art I saw him do were
> >just awful; seems he was trying to imitate Rob Liefeld's art...ugh...
>
> Yeah, Herb Trimpe had a lot of talent, but was often hit or miss.
Looking
> at his work, for example, on SM #2, it looks really good. But then
there
> were times that it just didn't work.
>
> >- Mike Vosburg. Never really liked his art. The more I've seen it on
> >other books over the years, the more I agree to that statement.
>
> Remind me - what issues did he do...?
#9 to 19, with 2 or so issues after that.
> >- Tony Salmons. I've heard people *HATE* his art. It was fine by me,
> >but I've definitely seen better...
>
> I liked his art. He did decent, realistic detail and people in
action.
> Plus, the man was just BORN to draw Roadblock. I think his depiction
of
> that character is the definitive one...although he couldn't draw a hot
> Zarana. And during later stints his art grew a little more...avant
garde,
> shall we say...? He ended up drawing a pretty super-deformed Zartan,
among
> others...
The highlight of his stint was that scene with Roadblock and the guy
trying to burn the US flag. :)
The lowlight was that opening page of the issue where Zartan killed the
Bling Master. :(
> >- John Statema. His gritty style was perfect for the period he did
the
> >art (the Trucial Abysma War): not clean and refined, a little messy
> >(inking wise, mostly), but good. I recall some "deformed" looking
> >figures and poses, but it was good stuff.
>
> I enjoyed his stuff, too, for the most part. Certain things bothered
me,
> like the poses you mentioned - a lot of times his action poses seemed
stiff
> and unrealistic (e.g. the opening of #109, when the Crimson Twins are
> stomping Duke).
>
> Speaking of Trucial Abysmia...didn't the stupid cover copy ("BODY
COUNT: 7
> AND CLIMBING") ruin the drama of the deaths a little bit...?
At the time, I remember being in disbelief when I saw that, but
figured, "They wouldn't...*would they*?!" They did.
> Somewhere in there, Paul Ryan did an issue (#85, I think). I would
love to
> see Paul Ryan TODAY work on GI JOE...I like a lot of what he's been
doing
> lately.
That was the second silent story. Not as good as the first one,
especially since they included the sound effects in this one...
> >Firefly as a "punk bitch." Huh. That's a new one.
>
> Not if you listen to what Cobra Commander has to say about him...!
Heh...
>
> >I think Hama was mimmicking Cobra Commander with the "new" Firefly. I
> >can see CC doing a lot of what Firefly did.
>
> True. His plan was decent (if a little over-dramatized by his running
> commentary..."And now...I will destroy everyone...with my army of
BATs and
> zombified ninjas! BWAHHAHA!"), but it just seemed like Hama didn't
give him
> the warrior props he deserved. He's a Koga ninja master, one of the
best
> saboteur/infiltrators in the world, AND a half-decent strategist.
Yet it
> seemed as if all he could do was quake in his boots whenever Snake-
Eyes
> looked at him. Of course, this is part of the problem of the over-
playing
> of Snake-Eyes' abilties, which escalated alarmingly in the later
period of
> the book...I still have painful flashbacks about that whole "Scorpion
> Formation" fiasco...arrg...
Because it slaps around the whole realism issue with GI Joe...? ;p
> >I always wondered what Hama did with Firefly after leaving him at the
> >hands of Slice, Dice and the red ninjas. We never do see him again
> >after that story...
>
> It's mentioned that Firefly managed to escape from Slice and Dice,
but,
> other than that, we don't see or hear from him again. No doubt, like
most
> people who have tried to betray and kill Cobra Commander (and who CC,
in
> turn, has tried to betray and kill), they eventually chalked it up as
even
> and went back to the mutual pursuit of fiscal empowerment motivated by
> rational greed. Cobra is, after all is said and done, all about the
> Benjamins...so to speak.
God bless America. ;p
Tim Frankovich
>Are you kidding? Sgt. Slaughter could handle it all by himself! The man's
>the world's only real G.I. JOE, for cryin' out loud! :)
What about Refrigerator Perry? :)
>>I'm thinking Gosier's style could've worked in a different time period
>>(perhaps when the cartoon was still on the air), to give the book a
>>similar look to the show. Or maybe not...
>
>I don't know...the show's art (at least for the first few years, before they
>switched to cheaper animation) was very consistently detailed and
>non-cartoony, actually. Phil's was a little less detailed than I'd like.
>Rod Whigham was about as "cartoony" as I liked to see the book get. He
>straddled the line pretty well. Strangely, I think the Emberlin inks on
>Whigham's Destro:Search and Destroy story didn't mesh with his art.
>Emberlin is consistently good over everyone else, but I prefered Whigham's
>work when he teamed with Mushynsky during the #50's...
Agreed. I NEVER liked Gossier, and between him and the fill-ins, I dropped the
book just a few issues before the end.
>Yeah, Herb Trimpe had a lot of talent, but was often hit or miss. Looking
>at his work, for example, on SM #2, it looks really good. But then there
>were times that it just didn't work.
Prime example: GI Joe #99. Ugggghhhhhh... Every character in that issue just
looked horrible. I had to keep checking the credits to be sure that was Herb
Trimpe. It was atrocious.
But SM#2 remains my all-time favorite issue.
>>- Tony Salmons. I've heard people *HATE* his art. It was fine by me,
>>but I've definitely seen better...
>
>I liked his art. He did decent, realistic detail and people in action.
>Plus, the man was just BORN to draw Roadblock. I think his depiction of
>that character is the definitive one...although he couldn't draw a hot
>Zarana. And during later stints his art grew a little more...avant garde,
>shall we say...? He ended up drawing a pretty super-deformed Zartan, among
>others...
Blech. Are you SERIOUS? Realistic detail?? With vehicles and characters that
looks like they've been through the free distort filter in Photoshop? Gah.
Recalling his Roadblock, I remember that he did okay close-ups of his face, but
then his body often looked like a distorted gorilla!
>>- John Statema. His gritty style was perfect for the period he did the
>>art (the Trucial Abysma War): not clean and refined, a little messy
>>(inking wise, mostly), but good. I recall some "deformed" looking
>>figures and poses, but it was good stuff.
>
>I enjoyed his stuff, too, for the most part. Certain things bothered me,
>like the poses you mentioned - a lot of times his action poses seemed stiff
>and unrealistic (e.g. the opening of #109, when the Crimson Twins are
>stomping Duke).
Agreed. Statema was excellent for the period. The interruption with the fill-in
artist really jarred.
Tim
Check out www.thebivouac.com and view GI Joe:Iconoclasts, my
diorama/comic/fan-fic/whatever!
SLWalsh
tim...@aol.comblahblah (Tim Frankovich) wrote:
> A. Patyk wrote:
>
> >>- John Statema. His gritty style was perfect for the period he did
the
> >>art (the Trucial Abysma War): not clean and refined, a little messy
> >>(inking wise, mostly), but good. I recall some "deformed" looking
> >>figures and poses, but it was good stuff.
> >
> >I enjoyed his stuff, too, for the most part. Certain things
bothered me,
> >like the poses you mentioned - a lot of times his action poses
seemed stiff
> >and unrealistic (e.g. the opening of #109, when the Crimson Twins are
> >stomping Duke).
>
the fill-in
> artist really jarred.
Are you referring to Ron Garney's fill-in (the one right after the SAW-
Viper slaughterfest), which was also his very first comic book? I
thought the art was very good...an interruption, maybe, but not a bad
one at all.
I actually brought that to be signed by him at the Heroes Con in
Charlotte a few months back...and for a guy who's done Cap, Silver
Surfer, Hulk and more since then, he looked rather joyous when I called
it his best work ever. He even sat there and flipped thru the whole
issue, reminiscing about the deadlines and pressures of his first comic
job...
A.Patyk
SLWalsh wrote in message <8nj62k$gau$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>#9 to 19, with 2 or so issues after that.
Hmm...I think that it obviously doesn't compare with the later, flashier
art...but it seems to capture the early era "feel" of GI JOE.
>The highlight of his stint was that scene with Roadblock and the guy
>trying to burn the US flag. :)
Yes! I thought Salmons illustrated that whole issue pretty well.
>The lowlight was that opening page of the issue where Zartan killed the
>Bling Master. :(
Ack! Yeah, that opening page just seemed like it was a funhouse reflection
of what it was really supposed to look like. His art seemed to get more
experimental...
>> Speaking of Trucial Abysmia...didn't the stupid cover copy ("BODY
>COUNT: 7
>> AND CLIMBING") ruin the drama of the deaths a little bit...?
>
>At the time, I remember being in disbelief when I saw that, but
>figured, "They wouldn't...*would they*?!" They did.
They definitely did. A couple of REAL surprises in the body count, too. I
mean, damn...Breaker, Doc, Quick-Kick! But, as Hama said, he had to pick
some of his favorites to keep it real...
>> Somewhere in there, Paul Ryan did an issue (#85, I think). I would
>love to
>> see Paul Ryan TODAY work on GI JOE...I like a lot of what he's been
>doing
>> lately.
>
>That was the second silent story. Not as good as the first one,
>especially since they included the sound effects in this one...
I think they were trying to tweak the formula to keep it from becoming
stale, but it didn't work quite as well. I think it would have done better
without any of the added SFX.
Speaking of which, has anyone checked out the recent issue of Deadpool that
is a JOE silent issue parody? I've been preoccupied and haven't been
keeping up with the book, but I've seen the cover that has the JOE-parody
cover copy "A Real American Zero" or something along those lines...
>> looked at him. Of course, this is part of the problem of the over-
>playing
>> of Snake-Eyes' abilties, which escalated alarmingly in the later
>period of
>> the book...I still have painful flashbacks about that whole "Scorpion
>> Formation" fiasco...arrg...
>
>Because it slaps around the whole realism issue with GI Joe...? ;p
Absolutely. I can accept Snake-Eyes' abilities, but not when they are
pushed up to levels that make him appear indestructible, unbeatable, and
superhuman. It takes away from the humanity of the character. Snake-Eyes
defeating many opponents I can definitely buy...but wading into what was
portrayed as 100+ trained ninjas and not only getting away, but winning...?
Uhhhmm...
>> It's mentioned that Firefly managed to escape from Slice and Dice,
>but,
>> other than that, we don't see or hear from him again. No doubt, like
>most
>> people who have tried to betray and kill Cobra Commander (and who CC,
>in
>> turn, has tried to betray and kill), they eventually chalked it up as
>even
>> and went back to the mutual pursuit of fiscal empowerment motivated by
>> rational greed. Cobra is, after all is said and done, all about the
>> Benjamins...so to speak.
>
>God bless America. ;p
Yep.
I was looking over some of the Gosier issues again and I've upped my opinion
of them. Definitely could have become one of the great JOE artists over
time. Alas, if only the book hadn't been cut short (after a bunch of
fill-ins, no less!). Many unanswered questions remained...but it definitely
left a legacy. I wonder if many noticed how many of Cobra's schemes were
perfectly legal and made fun of the "greed is good" view of
super-capitalism. It's little bits like that which keep me entertained by
the run every time I read it...
By the way, do you know if we ever saw Ripcord again after the issue where
he found out Candy was dead? It seems like almost everyone in GI JOE met
with some unhappy fate or end...
SLWalsh
"A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> SLWalsh wrote in message <8nj62k$gau$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <8niqq5$1355$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> > "A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Speaking of Trucial Abysmia...didn't the stupid cover copy ("BODY
> >COUNT: 7
> >> AND CLIMBING") ruin the drama of the deaths a little bit...?
> >
> >At the time, I remember being in disbelief when I saw that, but
> >figured, "They wouldn't...*would they*?!" They did.
>
> They definitely did. A couple of REAL surprises in the body count,
too. I
> mean, damn...Breaker, Doc, Quick-Kick! But, as Hama said, he had to
pick
> some of his favorites to keep it real...
Yeah, but...Breaker?! And Doc?!?! :(
Zap and Lifeline would've been fine...but hey, there's no changing that
now.
> Speaking of which, has anyone checked out the recent issue of
Deadpool that
> is a JOE silent issue parody? I've been preoccupied and haven't been
> keeping up with the book, but I've seen the cover that has the JOE-
parody
> cover copy "A Real American Zero" or something along those lines...
Yup. I'd given up on Deadpool a while back, but I went and bought that
one issue. Not bad; I've heard around here no one liked it, but it was
pretty good. Deadpool vs. the villainous Humbug...it's got a funny
ending. GI Joe #21 shoulda ended like that... ;p
> I was looking over some of the Gosier issues again and I've upped my
opinion
> of them. Definitely could have become one of the great JOE artists
over
> time. Alas, if only the book hadn't been cut short (after a bunch of
> fill-ins, no less!). Many unanswered questions remained...but it
definitely
> left a legacy. I wonder if many noticed how many of Cobra's schemes
were
> perfectly legal and made fun of the "greed is good" view of
> super-capitalism. It's little bits like that which keep me
entertained by
> the run every time I read it...
Wow. From "he's crap" (or something like that) to "one of the best."
Pat yourself on the back, Phil Gosier! ;)
And what kind of unanswered questions remained? I forget them at the
moment, but I'm sure further discussion would reawaken my lazy ol'
brain... ;)
> By the way, do you know if we ever saw Ripcord again after the issue
where
> he found out Candy was dead? It seems like almost everyone in GI JOE
met
> with some unhappy fate or end...
Y'know, I don't think he was ever seen again. Perhaps in the Cobra
Civil War (lots of unused guys appeared there), but I can't quite
recall anytime else...
Tim Frankovich
>> Agreed. Statema was excellent for the period. The interruption with
>the fill-in
>> artist really jarred.
>
>Are you referring to Ron Garney's fill-in (the one right after the SAW-
>Viper slaughterfest), which was also his very first comic book? I
>thought the art was very good...an interruption, maybe, but not a bad
>one at all.
THAT was Ron Garney???!? Dang... I didn't remember that. All I remember was
having one issue of this new, dark & gritty artist, followed by a totally
different style, changing the costumes, etc.
Tim
"fundamentalist dispenser of right-wing revisionism" according to some...
"nice guy who expresses his opinions and viewpoints honestly and openly with an
extremely minimal amount of chastising" according to others... "A very rare
and admirable trait."
A.Patyk
SLWalsh wrote in message <8nr39f$1ql$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>too. I
>> mean, damn...Breaker, Doc, Quick-Kick! But, as Hama said, he had to
>pick
>> some of his favorites to keep it real...
>
>
>Zap and Lifeline would've been fine...but hey, there's no changing that
>now.
Nope. And, again, I think seeing characters that you didn't expect to go
(like a very integral member of the original team, Breaker) really hit you
with suprise and then regret. It evoked the emotions it was supposed to, I
think...
>> Speaking of which, has anyone checked out the recent issue of
>Deadpool that
>> is a JOE silent issue parody? I've been preoccupied and haven't been
>> keeping up with the book, but I've seen the cover that has the JOE-
>parody
>> cover copy "A Real American Zero" or something along those lines...
>
>Yup. I'd given up on Deadpool a while back, but I went and bought that
>one issue. Not bad; I've heard around here no one liked it, but it was
>pretty good. Deadpool vs. the villainous Humbug...it's got a funny
>ending. GI Joe #21 shoulda ended like that... ;p
I'm going to grab it sometime this week. I want to keep supporting Deadpool
and check out their GI JOE-esque parody ish as well...
>> I was looking over some of the Gosier issues again and I've upped my
>opinion
>> of them. Definitely could have become one of the great JOE artists
>over
>> time. Alas, if only the book hadn't been cut short (after a bunch of
>> fill-ins, no less!). Many unanswered questions remained...but it
>definitely
>> left a legacy. I wonder if many noticed how many of Cobra's schemes
>were
>> perfectly legal and made fun of the "greed is good" view of
>> super-capitalism. It's little bits like that which keep me
>entertained by
>> the run every time I read it...
>
>Wow. From "he's crap" (or something like that) to "one of the best."
>Pat yourself on the back, Phil Gosier! ;)
Ah, "could have been." While there are some nice bits that really point to
his potential greatness (in #151, the scene of Zartan in the phone booth
might be the best rendition of the new look Zartan we've seen). His work
definitely improved, I think, with the addition of inker Scott Koblish.
Problems remained though: wildly unrealistic and cartoony facial expressions
(everyone that opens their mouth looks like a grimacing, yelling Pac-Man)
and COMPLETE lack of detail in the guns, vehicles, and uniforms. All of a
sudden, everyone is armed with weird-looking weaponry that's more reminscent
of the cartoon than the comic. I just KNOW Larry Hama was having fits over
that, considering his rep for being a stickler for visual details of
weapons, etc. All in all, though, I think that he would have eventually
solidified into a much better style on the book. Alas.
Also, perhaps we judged the Tony Salmons "deformed Zartan" too harshly.
That may actually have been more the influence of Randy Emberlin on the art!
Check out his #150 pin-up of Zartan...looks very similar in style to the
"deformed" one we were moaning about...
Another gripe (this time it's not the art, but - gasp - Larry himself) -
*DOC* shows up in #144, the flashback issue where Snake-Eyes' face is
ruined. But Doc wasn't part of the team that early on! And when he did
show up, he made it clear he didn't know Snake-Eyes or the other Joes yet,
and was surprised by the fact that Snakes' face was damaged. Arrrrggg...
>And what kind of unanswered questions remained? I forget them at the
>moment, but I'm sure further discussion would reawaken my lazy ol'
>brain... ;)
I just finished re-reading the series. Bittersweet feeling. A powerful and
appropriate ending narrated by Snake-Eyes, but the feeling that it was too
abrupt and left too much undone is still there after all these years. A
couple questions spring to mind, and not just "loose ends" but also things
we never got to see:
* obviously, the whole Zartan/Destro/Baroness/Storm Shadow/Billy enslaved by
CC thing. Come on! Snake-Eyes and Jinx didn't bust back in there with the
Joes and Ninja Force to rescue them?! Riiiight.
* The Baroness - what was her relation to Cobra Commander? Destro implied
that she may have had a romantic relationship with CC early on in the book.
So does this make the Baroness the most - ahem - "active" girl in GI JOE?
CC, Major Bludd, Fred, and Destro!
* What happened with Billy's mom after she left with him? Billy shows up
again, but she doesn't. Why wouldn't SHE divulge all she knew about her
husband to GI JOE?
* What's up with Zartan? Where was he trained, and where/how did he get his
enhanced strength (referred to in #48, I believe) and holography equipment?
The implication given is that he's been somehow genetically altered. And
what about his family? Sure, they're bikers and thugs, but they also seem
to have extensive military training (and odd taste in clothes), the origins
of which we never learn. And what happened to Zarana and the Dreadnoks?
(I'd ask, "And where did Zandar disappear to?" but the obvious answer would
be, "He was there - you just didn't notice him.")
* Storm Shadow's family - I always wondered about Storm Shadow's father and
mother - were they also ninjas? Tommy's from California, so does that mean
his parents aren't part of the inner clan? And what happened to the family
dojo, etc.? Is it abandoned, or is someone there? Where the HECK did the
Ninja Force come from?
* Slice & Dice - SUDDENLY joined Cobra after they escaped from Firefly's
control. Then they're referred to as "Cobra ninjas" and Slice, in
particular, seems very interested in loyalty to Cobra (by his treatment of
Scarlett when she supposedly went traitor). How'd this happen? And what
are their origins? Whose clan do they belong to?
* this may have been answered in #152, but why did they re-activate the
original GI JOE? (I'm missing 152-154).
And I'm drawing a blank on other important questions...I'm sure it'll come
to me as we cover the above...
SLWalsh
"A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> SLWalsh wrote in message <8nr39f$1ql$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <8nqied$1vkn$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> > "A.Patyk" <paty...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
> >> They definitely did. A couple of REAL surprises in the body count,
> >too. I
> >> mean, damn...Breaker, Doc, Quick-Kick! But, as Hama said, he had
to
> >pick
> >> some of his favorites to keep it real...
> >
> >Yeah, but...Breaker?! And Doc?!?! :(
> >
> >Zap and Lifeline would've been fine...but hey, there's no changing
that
> >now.
>
> Nope. And, again, I think seeing characters that you didn't expect
to go
> (like a very integral member of the original team, Breaker) really
hit you
> with suprise and then regret. It evoked the emotions it was supposed
to, I
> think...
That whole issue hit me with emotion. I was quite literally scared when
I finished that issue: here's a bunch of characters I've "known" since
I was a kid, getting killed off in the confines of one $1 comic
book...very scary indeed.
> Another gripe (this time it's not the art, but - gasp - Larry
himself) -
> *DOC* shows up in #144, the flashback issue where Snake-Eyes' face is
> ruined. But Doc wasn't part of the team that early on! And when he
did
> show up, he made it clear he didn't know Snake-Eyes or the other Joes
yet,
> and was surprised by the fact that Snakes' face was damaged.
Arrrrggg...
Hmmm...in the spirit of comic books these days, let's just Hypertime GI
Joe #144.
Or ignore it completely. Whichever is better... ;p
> >And what kind of unanswered questions remained? I forget them at the
> >moment, but I'm sure further discussion would reawaken my lazy ol'
> >brain... ;)
>
> I just finished re-reading the series. Bittersweet feeling. A
powerful and
> appropriate ending narrated by Snake-Eyes, but the feeling that it
was too
> abrupt and left too much undone is still there after all these
years. A
> couple questions spring to mind, and not just "loose ends" but also
things
> we never got to see:
>
> * obviously, the whole Zartan/Destro/Baroness/Storm Shadow/Billy
enslaved by
> CC thing. Come on! Snake-Eyes and Jinx didn't bust back in there
with the
> Joes and Ninja Force to rescue them?! Riiiight.
>
> * The Baroness - what was her relation to Cobra Commander? Destro
implied
> that she may have had a romantic relationship with CC early on in the
book.
> So does this make the Baroness the most - ahem - "active" girl in GI
JOE?
> CC, Major Bludd, Fred, and Destro!
I'd like to think actually seeing Lady Jaye and Flint making out in the
issue where the Star-Viper breaks into the Pit would automatically put
Lady Jaye at the top of the list... ;p
Where did Destro imply this, BTW?
> * What happened with Billy's mom after she left with him? Billy
shows up
> again, but she doesn't. Why wouldn't SHE divulge all she knew about
her
> husband to GI JOE?
>
> * What's up with Zartan? Where was he trained, and where/how did he
get his
> enhanced strength (referred to in #48, I believe) and holography
equipment?
> The implication given is that he's been somehow genetically altered.
Wasn't there an issue right after the second silent issue which dealt
with Zartan's history? He was part of the Arankasage (I'm spelling that
wrong, I just know it) clan, or at least affiliated with it...
> And
> what about his family? Sure, they're bikers and thugs, but they also
seem
> to have extensive military training (and odd taste in clothes), the
origins
> of which we never learn. And what happened to Zarana and the
Dreadnoks?
> (I'd ask, "And where did Zandar disappear to?" but the obvious answer
would
> be, "He was there - you just didn't notice him.")
In Gosier's first issue, Zarana and the Dreadnoks take off on their
own. I think she mentioned something about being "let go," or whatever.
But the last we see of them is riding off on their bikes...
> * Storm Shadow's family - I always wondered about Storm Shadow's
father and
> mother - were they also ninjas? Tommy's from California, so does
that mean
> his parents aren't part of the inner clan? And what happened to the
family
> dojo, etc.? Is it abandoned, or is someone there? Where the HECK
did the
> Ninja Force come from?
>
> * Slice & Dice - SUDDENLY joined Cobra after they escaped from
Firefly's
> control. Then they're referred to as "Cobra ninjas" and Slice, in
> particular, seems very interested in loyalty to Cobra (by his
treatment of
> Scarlett when she supposedly went traitor). How'd this happen? And
what
> are their origins? Whose clan do they belong to?
>
> * this may have been answered in #152, but why did they re-activate
the
> original GI JOE? (I'm missing 152-154).
Actually, I never really knew why Joe Colton was reactivated. Perhaps
to celebrate the 30th anniversary of GI Joe in #152...?
> And I'm drawing a blank on other important questions...I'm sure it'll
come
> to me as we cover the above...
--
A.Patyk
SLWalsh wrote in message <8o0d86$6fe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>That whole issue hit me with emotion. I was quite literally scared when
>I finished that issue: here's a bunch of characters I've "known" since
>I was a kid, getting killed off in the confines of one $1 comic
>book...very scary indeed.
But appropriate. By using characters we cared about instead of just canon
fodder, it made the experience that much more "real." And (hopefully)
that's as close as many will come to people they "know" dying in combat. A
very scary thing, overall.
>Hmmm...in the spirit of comic books these days, let's just Hypertime GI
>Joe #144.
>
>Or ignore it completely. Whichever is better... ;p
Hmm...I'm thinking, I'm thinking...
>> * The Baroness - what was her relation to Cobra Commander? Destro
>implied
>> that she may have had a romantic relationship with CC early on in the
>book.
>> So does this make the Baroness the most - ahem - "active" girl in GI
>JOE?
>> CC, Major Bludd, Fred, and Destro!
>
>I'd like to think actually seeing Lady Jaye and Flint making out in the
>issue where the Star-Viper breaks into the Pit would automatically put
>Lady Jaye at the top of the list... ;p
Ah, but we've actually seen the Baroness making out with at least two
people - Destro and Fred. And I don't recall if she was ever seen with
Major Bludd, but I think the idea was there. Either way, she beats out the
comparitvely chaste Lady Jaye. Remember, Larry had to deal with any
"romance"-like subjects in a kind of veiled way. As he said about Flint and
Lady Jaye, "a lot happens between the pages." Which is why we have only
clues to go on about who else the Baroness was hooking-up with...
>Where did Destro imply this, BTW?
Aside from the overall indicators (CC's jealousy of Destro, the fact that
both Baroness and Destro feel they must cover up their relationship in front
of him), Destro flat-out asks her in GI JOE #15, "Do you love him?" That's
an era that's interesting in itself, since it shows a younger, more
inexperienced Destro actually trying to betray Cobra Commander to win the
Baroness. He spends a lot of the rest of the series trying to make up this
breach of honor to the Commander (as in #50, where he saves the
organization) until he decides CC isn't worth it anymore.
>> * What happened with Billy's mom after she left with him? Billy
>shows up
>> again, but she doesn't. Why wouldn't SHE divulge all she knew about
>her
>> husband to GI JOE?
>>
>> * What's up with Zartan? Where was he trained, and where/how did he
>get his
>> enhanced strength (referred to in #48, I believe) and holography
>equipment?
>> The implication given is that he's been somehow genetically altered.
>
>Wasn't there an issue right after the second silent issue which dealt
>with Zartan's history? He was part of the Arankasage (I'm spelling that
>wrong, I just know it) clan, or at least affiliated with it...
I think it was right before...#84, I believe. It shows a young, biker Zartan
hired by CC to kill Snake-Eyes. He becomes an apprentice to the Arakishage
clan's swordsmith (which grants him access to their haunts). Zartan finds
inner peace working with the swordsmith, but is pressured by CC to complete
the hit. After accidentally killing the Hard Master, Zartan's master kills
himself in shame. This sends Zartan back down the path of crime, etc. It
seems that the period after this is when he gets his enhancements - there's
no mention of when or how in the origin issue. The only clues we have are
his own statements about his "inhuman strength," and Doc's analysis of his
blood in #48.
>> And
>> what about his family? Sure, they're bikers and thugs, but they also
>seem
>> to have extensive military training (and odd taste in clothes), the
>origins
>> of which we never learn. And what happened to Zarana and the
>Dreadnoks?
>> (I'd ask, "And where did Zandar disappear to?" but the obvious answer
>would
>> be, "He was there - you just didn't notice him.")
>
>In Gosier's first issue, Zarana and the Dreadnoks take off on their
>own. I think she mentioned something about being "let go," or whatever.
>But the last we see of them is riding off on their bikes...
Right. That was either a loose end that didn't get tied-up because the
series ended, or a way of writing them "out." Since they were such popular
and integral characters, I doubt it was the latter. Which leads on to
wonder, what was in store for them?
>> * Storm Shadow's family - I always wondered about Storm Shadow's
>father and
>> mother - were they also ninjas? Tommy's from California, so does
>that mean
>> his parents aren't part of the inner clan? And what happened to the
>family
>> dojo, etc.? Is it abandoned, or is someone there? Where the HECK
>did the
>> Ninja Force come from?
>>
>> * Slice & Dice - SUDDENLY joined Cobra after they escaped from
>Firefly's
>> control. Then they're referred to as "Cobra ninjas" and Slice, in
>> particular, seems very interested in loyalty to Cobra (by his
>treatment of
>> Scarlett when she supposedly went traitor). How'd this happen? And
>what
>> are their origins? Whose clan do they belong to?
>>
>> * this may have been answered in #152, but why did they re-activate
>the
>> original GI JOE? (I'm missing 152-154).
>
>Actually, I never really knew why Joe Colton was reactivated. Perhaps
>to celebrate the 30th anniversary of GI Joe in #152...?
I just remember Roadblock and Tunnel Rat going to give him the papers with
no explanation, and I never got #153.
A.Patyk
Straight-Edge wrote in message
<20000823224215...@ng-bh1.aol.com>...
>sown together. The Dreadnoks, without Zartan, were a dead gimmick, and
Zarana
>had long since outlived her usefulness as a character.
I'd have to strongly disagree with both these statements. The Dreadnoks
were certainly not dependent on Zartan to be interesting. In fact, they
spent most of their time in the book without him and did very well. The
idea of Cobra's biker-thug shock troops was far from a "dead gimmick," and
fit in very well with the book's themes. The characters had a niche and
comic charm that was lacking in others.
And Zarana had definitely not outlived her usefulness. In fact, I wish a
lot more had been done with her. They hinted at her attempt to become more
a "respectable" terrorist and cut ties with the Dreadnoks before CC "cut her
loose." I wish we had gotten to see her attempting to drop her biker image
and fit in, etc. Her getting "cut loose" seemed forced as well (although, I
guess, in character for CC..."love 'em and leave 'em")...she's part of the
"command element" in one issue, then completely phased out in a few more?
>with Hasbro completely dropping such concepts as the Dreadnoks for the more
>thematic Star Brigade and Ninja Force, that Larry was going to write them
off
>for good.
Again, it's highly doubtful that they wouldn't have returned at some point.
GI JOE had more than its fair share of long-time fans, most of whom enjoyed
the Dreadnoks occasional presence.
>>> * Storm Shadow's family - I always wondered about Storm Shadow's father
and
>mother - were they also ninjas?>>
>
>Storm Shadow's bio in the back of Issue #109 states that not only did he
study
>the ninja arts under his uncles' tutalage as a teenager, but upon returning
to
>America, he *defied* his parent's wishes and joined the Army to serve in
>Vietnam. This, combined with Snake-Eyes' revelation in issue #155 that
Tommy
>went to Nam and served in the LRRP as a sort of a doctorate in his ninja
>education. So it would stand to reason that his parents were not ninja, or
>else they would not have objected to his taking that test of true ninja
skill
>that was Nam.
Right. Of course, it may turn out that the person who ACTUALLY masterminded
the "accidental" death of the Hard Master was his jealous brother, Tommy's
dad. :) Oh, you know it was going to happen!
>The Ninja Force was composed of three ninjas who had been trained by the
>surviving masters of the Clan.
>Dojo was taught by the Soft Master, presumably at the time he ran the
Chinese
>resteraunt in Spanish Harlem. Nunchuk, a Brooklyn Native, like me, studied
>under the Blind Master at his Denver dojo, and T'jbang was a former pupil
of
>Onihoshi.
But was Onihashi a ninja himself? Although Zartan is proficient in several
"mystic martial arts," he's not called a ninja and was also a pupil of
Onihashi. Did he just not receive specific ninja training?
It seemed, in the book itself, that the Ninja Force popped out of nowhere.
Although they have their file origins, little was done in the book to
explain who they were, where they came from, and why they hadn't been seen
before. But I guess that's part of the toy-tie-in aspect...
>>* Slice & Dice - SUDDENLY joined Cobra after they escaped from Firefly's
>control. Then they're referred to as "Cobra ninjas" and Slice, in
particular,
>seems very interested in loyalty to Cobra (by his treatment of Scarlett
when
>she supposedly went traitor). How'd this happen?>>
>
>The simple story was that they called the Red Ninjas to Transcarpathia at
some
>point after Zartan ditched them, so the Red Ninjas were already associated
with
>Cobra to a degree (they also worked for Cobra in Issue 21 and in the 3rd
>Yearbook). So when Slice and Dice freed Cesspool, Zarana and RoadPig from
>their cells, they were all taken back to the Commander, and somewhere along
the
>line they joined up for real.
The red ninjas in 21 weren't part of the clan of Red Ninjas we saw later- I
believe Larry said in a letter column that they were "ronin." Not sure
about the ones in the Yearbook...regardless, it just seemed rather abrupt
for Slice and Dice to enter the fold. What was their original plan when
they showed up in Trans-Carpathia...?
>>>I never really knew why Joe Colton was reactivated. Perhaps to celebrate
the
>30th anniversary of GI Joe in #152...?>>
>
>Well, thats the corporate reason. Larry wanted his tale of the "Original"
Joe
>to tie into this series, that had, except for Issue #86, *never* held any
ties
>to the old 12" line. Thus, Colton was reactivated, presumably to head up
the
>Joe team again as he had a 3 3/4" figure available, but while he arrived
safely
>with Ace in Washington, the series abruptly ended, killing off that
storyline
>*and* the Cobra Reborn arc that was supposed to be resolved with the rescue
of
>those held in the Commander's grasp...
Hmmm...was Colton going to replace Hawk as commander, or Duke in the
field...? Or would he have just ended up as another confusing link in the
GI Joe command hierarchy...?
Straight-Edge
think she mentioned something about being "let go," or whatever. But the last
we see of them is riding off on their bikes...>>
>>Right. That was either a loose end that didn't get tied-up because the
series ended, or a way of writing them "out." Since they were such popular and
integral characters, I doubt it was the latter.>>
You'd be suprised. Much like the Trucial Abysmian War, Larry constantly needed
to thin out the cast of characters. And it didnt begin or end with the Deaths
in the Desert. He did it in the early 30's by effectively promting/dropping
the original team, and again in that later issue, where all the loose ends were
sown together. The Dreadnoks, without Zartan, were a dead gimmick, and Zarana
had long since outlived her usefulness as a character. Its very possible that,
with Hasbro completely dropping such concepts as the Dreadnoks for the more
thematic Star Brigade and Ninja Force, that Larry was going to write them off
for good.
>> * Storm Shadow's family - I always wondered about Storm Shadow's father and
mother - were they also ninjas?>>
Storm Shadow's bio in the back of Issue #109 states that not only did he study
the ninja arts under his uncles' tutalage as a teenager, but upon returning to
America, he *defied* his parent's wishes and joined the Army to serve in
Vietnam. This, combined with Snake-Eyes' revelation in issue #155 that Tommy
went to Nam and served in the LRRP as a sort of a doctorate in his ninja
education. So it would stand to reason that his parents were not ninja, or
else they would not have objected to his taking that test of true ninja skill
that was Nam.
>>Tommy's from California, so does that mean his parents aren't part of the
inner clan?>>
That would seem so.
>>And what happened to the family dojo, etc.? Is it abandoned, or is someone
there? Where the HECK did the Ninja Force come from?>>
The dojo in Japan was said to have been abandoned. The Soft Master went off
to hunt Storm Shadow in America, Onihoshi was dead, the Blind Master had moved
to Denver, and some of the others are rumored to have joined the Red Ninjas who
lived in Destro's castle in Trans-Carpathia.
The Ninja Force was composed of three ninjas who had been trained by the
surviving masters of the Clan.
Dojo was taught by the Soft Master, presumably at the time he ran the Chinese
resteraunt in Spanish Harlem. Nunchuk, a Brooklyn Native, like me, studied
under the Blind Master at his Denver dojo, and T'jbang was a former pupil of
Onihoshi.
>* Slice & Dice - SUDDENLY joined Cobra after they escaped from Firefly's
control. Then they're referred to as "Cobra ninjas" and Slice, in particular,
seems very interested in loyalty to Cobra (by his treatment of Scarlett when
she supposedly went traitor). How'd this happen?>>
The simple story was that they called the Red Ninjas to Transcarpathia at some
point after Zartan ditched them, so the Red Ninjas were already associated with
Cobra to a degree (they also worked for Cobra in Issue 21 and in the 3rd
Yearbook). So when Slice and Dice freed Cesspool, Zarana and RoadPig from
their cells, they were all taken back to the Commander, and somewhere along the
line they joined up for real.
>>I never really knew why Joe Colton was reactivated. Perhaps to celebrate the
30th anniversary of GI Joe in #152...?>>
Well, thats the corporate reason. Larry wanted his tale of the "Original" Joe
to tie into this series, that had, except for Issue #86, *never* held any ties
to the old 12" line. Thus, Colton was reactivated, presumably to head up the
Joe team again as he had a 3 3/4" figure available, but while he arrived safely
with Ace in Washington, the series abruptly ended, killing off that storyline
*and* the Cobra Reborn arc that was supposed to be resolved with the rescue of
those held in the Commander's grasp...
Straight-Edge (Trademarked by Lanard Toys, damn them)