ETERNALS questions
MarkusMac
I just recently finished a marathon ETERNALS session, including the original
ETERNALS series #1-19 plus ANNUAL, the 1980s 12-issue ETERNALS series, the 90s
ETERNALS: HEROD FACTOR one-shot, and 2000's THE NEW ETERNALS one-shot. I missed
the relevent AVENGERS issues unfortunately. Nonetheless, I have a ton of
questions I would appreciate answers for, from any ETERNALS experts out there.
Firstly, I've read varying reports (in this very group) about whether Kirby
wanted the ETERNALS to be set in the Marvel Universe or not. The interesting
thing about reading the original series was that this topic is discussed in
almost every letters page of the series, with people weighing in on the
subject. Yet the strange part is that the editor kept making claims that the
ETERNALS were definitely set in the MU no-question-about-it. However when you
read the stories it seems like the opposite is true. For instance, in issue #2,
several SHIELD agents appear, but they are not in uniform and you never see
Nick Fury. Then in a later issue, the Deviants attack NY and no Marvel
superheroes even make a cameo. The letter-col explains this away by saying that
everyone was out of town? (seriously). Then in an even later issue, the Hulk
makes appearance. Case closed, right? Well no, b/c as it turns out, the Hulk in
the story is a robot who was apparently inspired by the comic book version, not
the actual Hulk, and when it goes crazy in the streets, almost no one seems to
recognize him. They call it a 'monster', as opposed to "that monster the
incredible Hulk who used to be in the Avengers." And those who do seem to
recognize the Hulk make comments like, "what's next? Are all the Marvel comic
books characters going to come to life?" If this is the Marvel U proper, then
that's an awfully strange comment since the Marvel characters in the MU are
already alive, aren't they? Does anyone know the behind-the-scenes on this.
Also, the first ETERNALS series seems to end so abruptly, i was wondering if
there was more to this as well. While I imagine it was common for titles to end
without a proper resolution in the 70s, there's no specific mention whatsoever
in the last issue that the titled has been cancelled.
Jumping ahead to the 1980s, this was an even stranger trip in that the series
starts off very strong (IMO) and then seems to fall apart. Not only does the
artist Sal Bucema gets replaced by Keith Pollard halfway through, but the
writer gets replaced by Walt Simonson as well. To make matters worse whole
plot-threads in the series were abruptly abandoned and the resolution of the
series feels incredibly rushed and inconsistant with what came before. All of
which I find surprising b/c I'm usually knocked out by anything Walt Simonson
does (as writer or artist... I actually loved his AVENGERS and FF runs, short
as they were, and his ORION will be much missed by this fan:-(). Thus this
awkward direction change leads me to believe that there was some kind of
unplanned creator shuffling going on. What the heck ever happened to PHASTOS
for example? They intro him in issue #3 then he disappears from the series
completely.
Finally, I wonder if there is any interest (from fans or Marvel) in doing an
Essential ETERNALS? The stories weren't that great, but the concept was filled
with interesting ideas, and it is Kirby after all. Plus the original series was
about 20 issues long, which is a perfect size for an Essential.
Beyond this, I'll only say that the two one-shots weren't particularly good.
HEROD FACTOR had some things that I liked, but again, seemed to go off in some
strang directions. And THE NEW ETERNALS was just god-awful. Pun intended.
Apparently someone had the bright idea to turn the Eternals into a psuedo X-Men
group. Just what we need. Hurrah... Yet in light of the successful INHUMANS
revival under Marvel Knights, I'm surprised no one has taken up the challenge
of doing something serious with these characters/concept, maybe under M.Knights
or the MAX line. Considering how much talent has been attracted to THE NEW GODS
over the years, Kirby's 'other gods' have been rather neglected.
254
Kenmlin
about the Celestials after the first few issues. He never got back to their
arrival on Earth when the first series was canceled.
Lilith
[snip]
[snip]
Can you ignore that Sersei (sp?) was a member of the Avengers?
Lil
Jason Czeskleba
> Firstly, I've read varying reports (in this very group) about whether
Kirby
> wanted the ETERNALS to be set in the Marvel Universe or not.
I think the answer is "yes". Key piece of evidence: Dr. Daniel Damian is
definitely established as being in the Marvel Universe by his appearance in
Fantastic Four #64. I always thought it was neat that Kirby plucked an
obscure character from an old FF issue and made him one of the main cast of
the Eternals.
I think the appearance of SHIELD agents also supports the idea that it's the
MU. Kirby depicted SHIELD agents in exactly the same way during his
concurrent run on Captain America (no consistent uniforms, no appearance by
Nick Fury), and he clearly considered his Cap to be part of the MU. I think
it's realistic that Fury doesn't necessarily have time to take a hands-on
role in every SHIELD assignment.
I would guess the appearance of "Hulk" was an editorial suggestion by
someone else, designed to pump up sales, and Kirby decided to subvert the
idea by not making it the real Hulk. I see that as not so much proof that
it's not MU, but rather just proof that Kirby had little interest in using
established Marvel characters in this title. I'm going to cross-post this
to alt.comics.jack-kirby, maybe Mark Evanier will have some
behind-the-scenes info about Kirby's opinions...
> Also, the first ETERNALS series seems to end so abruptly, i was wondering
if
> there was more to this as well. While I imagine it was common for titles
to end
> without a proper resolution in the 70s, there's no specific mention
whatsoever
> in the last issue that the titled has been cancelled.
I would guess it was cancelled abruptly, sometime after the letters page and
content of the final issue were already prepared.
> Finally, I wonder if there is any interest (from fans or Marvel) in doing
an
> Essential ETERNALS? The stories weren't that great, but the concept was
filled
> with interesting ideas, and it is Kirby after all. Plus the original
series was
> about 20 issues long, which is a perfect size for an Essential.
I don't think an Essential Eternals would sell that well. Back issues are
easy to come by, and pretty cheap, where you can complete the entire Kirby
run for $3 or less per issue if you do some looking. I have to say it's
definitely my favorite book from Kirby's 70's Marvel work, though.
Neosaurus
Universe; it was added into the MU by writers other than Kirby in issues of
THOR leading up to #300.
-Sean Curtin
Mark Evanier
<czeskleba@antispam_mindspring.com> posted:
>I would guess the appearance of "Hulk" was an editorial suggestion by
>someone else, designed to pump up sales, and Kirby decided to subvert the
>idea by not making it the real Hulk. I see that as not so much proof that
>it's not MU, but rather just proof that Kirby had little interest in using
>established Marvel characters in this title. I'm going to cross-post this
>to alt.comics.jack-kirby, maybe Mark Evanier will have some
>behind-the-scenes info about Kirby's opinions...
ME: A little. Jack did not have a great love for the concept of the
Marvel Universe as a collective work. He was interested in being a
cooperative employee up to a point but he didn't want to collaborate
with others, especially with some of the folks who wanted fervently at
the time to collaborate with him. He looked at other Marvel books,
including those he'd done before, and didn't especially like them, nor
did he recognize the characters as they ones he'd done.
He'd have preferred not to have gone back to work at Marvel at all
but, given that he was more-or-less stuck, he asked to be left alone.
He wanted to write and draw stories on his own without having to work
with other writers. He didn't particularly care if others considered
them part of the "Marvel Universe" or not as long as it didn't force
him to participate in other comics or to modify his work to match
them. So if you'd asked him about whether the books were part of that
continuity, his answer would have been, "I don't know and I don't
care." I believe others since have decided both ways.
Regarding the appearance of the Hulk, I believe that Jack was being
pressured to cross-over some other Marvel heroes. He looked at the
current books and didn't like or understand them, and he didn't want
to get in a position where he'd use Spider-Man and then the guys the
in charge of Spider-Man would come in and start demanding he change
things to suit them. So the idea of the robotic Hulk was a
compromise...but I don't know if it was Kirby's or if it originated in
the editorial office.
------------------------------
www.POVonline.com - a website about comic books, cartoons, TV,
movies, Groo the Wanderer, Broadway, Las Vegas, Hollywood,
Stan Freberg, Laurel & Hardy, Jack Kirby and possums in my backyard.
Carl Henderson
news:20020618052245...@mb-ft.aol.com:
> Finally, I wonder if there is any interest (from fans or Marvel) in
> doing an Essential ETERNALS? The stories weren't that great, but the
> concept was filled with interesting ideas, and it is Kirby after all.
> Plus the original series was about 20 issues long, which is a perfect
> size for an Essential.
I'd buy it. But I suspect it wouldn't be a big seller, despite the Kirby
art/story. I'm quite fond of the ETERNALS. This is probably heretical, but
I enjoyed Kirby's ETERNALS more than his more famous "Fourth World" books
(where Kirby also deals with a "Gods on the Earth" story in a very
different way).
> And THE NEW ETERNALS was just
> god-awful. Pun intended. Apparently someone had the bright idea to turn
> the Eternals into a psuedo X-Men group. Just what we need. Hurrah...
THE NEW ETERNALS never happened. THE NEW ETERNALS never happened. There was
no such comic book. Just keep repeating that over and over...
--
Carl Henderson carl.he...@airmail.net
RAC/RACM FAQ http://www.enteract.com/~katew/faqs/miscfaq.htm
Patrick PICHOT
Neosaurus a *crit :
Right Marc Gruenwald in Thor #281 and Roy Thomas from Thor#283
Best
Patrick
Sean Walsh
news:B4748E56AD7D8B58.80B5D599...@lp.airnews.net...
> > god-awful. Pun intended. Apparently someone had the bright idea to turn
> > the Eternals into a psuedo X-Men group. Just what we need. Hurrah...
>
> THE NEW ETERNALS never happened. THE NEW ETERNALS never happened. There
was
> no such comic book. Just keep repeating that over and over...
THE NEW ETERNALS never happened? What do you mean THE NEW ETERNALS never
happened? THE NEW ETERNALS never happened??? ;p
Sean
:)
--
New Gods Library: http://fastbak.tripod.com
Quantum Piett! http://www.geocities.com/quantumpiett/
My latest eBay auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/slwalsh/
MarkusMac
resource on the Kirby-verse and all things Kirby. If anyone cares to post a
message somewhere for Walt Simonson, I'd love to hear his take on the 80s
series, and/or if there's a chance in heck he might ever consider returning to
Marvel to do a new Eternals series. Even though his ORION didn't sell well, it
was far and away one of the best titles being published at DC. Maybe a 12-issue
limited series under the M.Knights line similar to the INHUMANS series would be
a nice fit for him. But I'm just day-dreaming, aren't I? The NEW ETERNALS never
happened... The NEW ETERNALS never happened... The NEW ETERNALS never...
254
Isaac
> I would guess the appearance of "Hulk" was an editorial suggestion by
> someone else, designed to pump up sales, and Kirby decided to subvert the
> idea by not making it the real Hulk. I see that as not so much proof that
> it's not MU, but rather just proof that Kirby had little interest in using
> established Marvel characters in this title. I'm going to cross-post this
> to alt.comics.jack-kirby, maybe Mark Evanier will have some
> behind-the-scenes info about Kirby's opinions...
I always took the appearance of the Hulk robot as evidence that the Eternals
were not set in the MU. I found it more plausible that the students based
the robot on a comic book character than on the real thing, but there isn't
a lot of evidence either way.
Whoever wrote the letter column in the issue #14, which has the start of the
Hulk appearance, claimed that Kirby had confirmed once and for all that
Eternals was set in the MU, and requested that letter writers stop
stirring up the controversy. I never found that claim very convincing.
In addition to the incidents you mention, there was the incident in
issue #6 when Sersi temporarily changed someone's head resemble the
Thing's. An onlooker said changee looked like a "second rate Ben
Grimm".
I think the question of setting is separate from the question of whether
Kirby wanted MU super heroes appearing in the series. It seems pretty
clear that he did not want the latter.
Isaac
Andrew Weiland
The Celestials are the most enduring concept to come out of the
Eternals series, and the Fourth Host of the Celestials is a brilliant
conceit. IIRC they were supposed to spend twenty years observing the
Earth before they would "render judgement" on humanity. During the
time frame of the first series, the involvement of the Celestials was
something to worry about for the future. When the Celestials showed
up again in Thor, the time they would spend observing was revealed to
be much shorter.
AKieswetter
I honestly do not think Kirby intended the Eternals to be part of the
MU and I wish Marvel had kept it that way. Sure there's that Dr.Damien
character and the SHIELD agents,but they could have been
alternate-Earth versions.
Making THE ETERNALS part of the Marvel Universe was a big mistake. It
made established MU continuity more complex in doing so.
Andrew Kieswetter
Mikel Midnight
AKieswetter <apkies...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Making THE ETERNALS part of the Marvel Universe was a big mistake. It
> made established MU continuity more complex in doing so.
As if they had a need to explain the Titans (Greek mythology), or
needed a secret race of superhumans (the Inhumans), or unimaginably
ancient (the Elders) and powerful (Galactus) space gods, or the
evolution of humans on Earth (Darwin) ...
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"She always had a terrific sense of humor" Mikel Midnight
(Valerie Solonas, as described by her mother)
blak...@best.com
______________________________________http://www.best.com/~blaklion/comics.html
Isaac
> I honestly do not think Kirby intended the Eternals to be part of the
> MU and I wish Marvel had kept it that way. Sure there's that Dr.Damien
> character and the SHIELD agents,but they could have been
> alternate-Earth versions.
> Making THE ETERNALS part of the Marvel Universe was a big mistake. It
> made established MU continuity more complex in doing so.
I have mixed feelings about the Eternals in the MU. I'm glad that for the
most part the MU was kept out of the Eternals, and I think an Eternal
series set outside of the MU could produce great stories. I wish Kirby
had done more of them.
But I don't mind stories about the Celestials and the Eternals set in the
MU. I think they've been given apporpriate power levels relative to the
the other Marvel cosmic dudes so that the Celestials in particular don't
lose any credibility. I'm really not interested in seeing any kind of
Arishem/Galactus throwdown, but we've never been fed anything like that.
Isaac