OMD Irony
Tony
backpeddle and put Peter back in the suit, there were many scenarios
writers and editors came up with. A couple of them featured cosmic/
supernatural outs, but the editors wisely realized that using Judas
Traveller or Mephisto to under/mastermind the Clone Saga was too far
away from the world of Spider-Man. It's a shame the current
editorial regime doesn't realize that.
Tony
badbad
Why couldn't they have used Dr. Bong instead of Mephisto? Dr. Bong
hits Spidey on the head. Then the clones, neo Gwen Stacy, Civil War and
everything after is a delirious concussion.
Why couldn't they have said that everything after issue 280 was all fake
because J. Jonah Jameson used the cosmic cube because Peter used Nair on
Man-Wolf?
Why couldn't they have said that everything after issue 320 was a
nightmare caused by indigestion when Peter eats Mary Janes first
home-cooked meal?
Why make a re-boot with a supernatural creature when it isn't even one
of Spidey's traditional villains?
Why don't they hire editors?
Why?
Why? Why? Why?
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? \
badbad
Michael
They DO hire editors!
WHAT those editors DO these days is a mystery to me.
Play Jarts I guess.
Michael
grinningdemon
wrote:
Actually, this whole storyline...and Civil War...and Sins Past
(basically all of the most hated Marvel stories of recent years) have
been chiefly shaped by editorial decisions (Quesada in
particular)...they question is not "what they do?" so much as "why
haven't they been fired yet?" I say bring in the monkeys with
typewriters...it's bound to be an improvement.
YKW '06
random electrons to communicate as follows:
They tried that in the 1990s. They called it "Image".
> it's bound to be an improvement.
Sadly, it wasn't.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
Michael
Quesada dictated that Gwen Stacy have children out of wedlock by Norman
Osborn from on high?
Michael
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> grinningdemon wrote:
>> Actually, this whole storyline...and Civil War...and Sins Past
>> (basically all of the most hated Marvel stories of recent years) have
>> been chiefly shaped by editorial decisions (Quesada in
>> particular)...they question is not "what they do?" so much as "why
>> haven't they been fired yet?" I say bring in the monkeys with
>> typewriters...it's bound to be an improvement.
>
> Quesada dictated that Gwen Stacy have children out of wedlock by
> Norman Osborn from on high?
Yeah, sort of. JMS wanted Peter to be the father, but Joey Q's response
was "I say thee nay! Spider-Man is too young to have kids! And also too
young to be married, but I'll deal with that next year! This shall not
stand!"
Or words to that effect.
--
Dave
"There is no Neils the Bouncing Cat! He's gone!
Now there is only... P-Cat, the Penitent Puss!"
Billy Bissette
news:Xns99FAE4F1D7992da...@130.133.1.4:
> On 02 Dec 2007, Michael <this...@for.rent> wrote:
>
>> grinningdemon wrote:
>
>>> Actually, this whole storyline...and Civil War...and Sins Past
>>> (basically all of the most hated Marvel stories of recent years) have
>>> been chiefly shaped by editorial decisions (Quesada in
>>> particular)...they question is not "what they do?" so much as "why
>>> haven't they been fired yet?" I say bring in the monkeys with
>>> typewriters...it's bound to be an improvement.
>>
>> Quesada dictated that Gwen Stacy have children out of wedlock by
>> Norman Osborn from on high?
>
> Yeah, sort of. JMS wanted Peter to be the father, but Joey Q's response
> was "I say thee nay! Spider-Man is too young to have kids! And also too
> young to be married, but I'll deal with that next year! This shall not
> stand!"
>
> Or words to that effect.
Indeed. There are even spots in the story where you can tell the
original idea was that Peter was the father.
ozandy
news:1er4l3lurpseu0n0e...@4ax.com...
Actually, I don't know what you guys are crapping on about. One more day was
getting a bit boring until Mephisto appeared in this issue. I'm actually
interested in the next issue of SSM for once. Although I must admit the Dr
Bong idea isn't bad :-}
Andy
Michael
I'm sure JQ said it just like that.
;)
Michael
Tony
> "grinningdemon" <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:1er4l3lurpseu0n0e...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:31:34 -0800, Michael <thissp...@for.rent>
>
> - Show quoted text -
--largely the fact that Mephisto has no place in Spider-Man stories,
and MORE IMPORTANTLY, he's being used as the vehicle to UNmarry Peter
and MJ. Which is an idea that sucks so much it's in the annals of
suckiest ideas ever.
Tony
grinningdemon
wrote:
Too bad there is no next issue for SSM since it's cancelled in favor
of Amazing Spiderman 3 times a month...any bets on how long it will
take them to fall behind on that one?
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Dec 2, 8:38?pm, "ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote:
>> "grinningdemon" <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:1er4l3lurpseu0n0e...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:31:34 -0800, Michael <thissp...@for.rent>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>badbad wrote:
>>
>> >>> Tony wrote:
>>
>> >>>> Back during the Clone Saga, when Marvel was trying to figure a way to
>> >>>> backpeddle and put Peter back in the suit, there were many scenarios
>> >>>> writers and editors came up with. ?A couple of them featured cosmic/
>> >>>> supernatural outs, but the editors wisely realized that using Judas
>> >>>> Traveller or Mephisto to under/mastermind the Clone Saga was too far
>> >>>> away from the world of Spider-Man. ? It's a shame the current
>> >>>> editorial regime doesn't realize that.
>>
>> >>>> Tony
>>
>> >>> Why couldn't they have used Dr. Bong instead of Mephisto? ? Dr. Bong
>> >>> hits Spidey on the head. Then the clones, neo Gwen Stacy, Civil War and
>> >>> everything after is a delirious concussion.
>>
>> >>> Why couldn't they have said that everything after issue 280 was all fake
>> >>> because J. Jonah Jameson used the cosmic cube because Peter used Nair on
>> >>> ?Man-Wolf?
>>
>> >>> Why couldn't they have said that everything after issue 320 was a
>> >>> nightmare caused by indigestion when Peter eats Mary Janes first
>> >>> home-cooked meal?
>>
>> >>> Why make a re-boot with a supernatural creature when it isn't even one
>> >>> of Spidey's traditional villains?
>>
>> >>> Why don't they hire editors?
>>
>> >>> Why?
>>
>> >>> Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>>
>> >>> Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>> Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>> Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>> Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>> \
>>
>> >>> badbad
>>
>> >>They DO hire editors!
>>
>> >>WHAT those editors DO these days is a mystery to me.
>>
>> >>Play Jarts I guess.
>>
>> >>Michael
>>
>> > Actually, this whole storyline...and Civil War...and Sins Past
>> > (basically all of the most hated Marvel stories of recent years) have
>> > been chiefly shaped by editorial decisions (Quesada in
>> > particular)...they question is not "what they do?" so much as "why
>> > haven't they been fired yet?" ?I say bring in the monkeys with
>> > typewriters...it's bound to be an improvement.
>>
>> Actually, I don't know what you guys are crapping on about. One more day was
>> getting a bit boring until Mephisto appeared in this issue. I'm actually
>> interested in the next issue of SSM for once. Although I must admit the Dr
>> Bong idea isn't bad :-}
>>
>> Andy- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>--largely the fact that Mephisto has no place in Spider-Man stories,
>and MORE IMPORTANTLY, he's being used as the vehicle to UNmarry Peter
>and MJ. Which is an idea that sucks so much it's in the annals of
>suckiest ideas ever.
>
>Tony
...and deals with the devil usually work out great...I'm still hoping
against hope that the whole deal is just about temptation and that
they won't actually go through with it...I just find it hard to
believe that they would set up this new era of Spiderman (which is
supposed to be lighter and a return to greatness) through a deal with
Mephisto...talk about fruit of the poisonous tree...surely they
(mainly meaning Quesada) aren't actually that stupid.
YKW '06
> Too bad there is no next issue for SSM since it's cancelled in favor
> of Amazing Spiderman 3 times a month...any bets on how long it will
> take them to fall behind on that one?
Since they've already been given a three-month reprieve due to editorial
(Quesada) having trouble getting work in a timely manner from the artist
(Quesada), the three-a-month ASM should be fine clear into the spring.
Michael
The personal opinion of the EID MUST take precedence over what the fans
want!
Michael
ozandy
"Tony" <Tony...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:d6bd3e9a-d5f0-48cb...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
[SNIP]
>>
>> Actually, I don't know what you guys are crapping on about. One more day
>> was
>> getting a bit boring until Mephisto appeared in this issue. I'm actually
>> interested in the next issue of SSM for once. Although I must admit the
>> Dr
>> Bong idea isn't bad :-}
>>
> >Andy- Hide quoted text -
>>
> >- Show quoted text -
>
>--largely the fact that Mephisto has no place in Spider-Man stories,
>and MORE IMPORTANTLY, he's being used as the vehicle to UNmarry Peter
>and MJ. Which is an idea that sucks so much it's in the annals of
>suckiest ideas ever.
>
>Tony
Well, technically we don't know that he will decide to end his marriage. I
agree that he probably will, as saving a life is worth more than saving a
relationship. There are legitimate storytelling reasons for ending the MJ
continuity. Clearly they don't convince the conservatives on Usenet. We'll
see whether the do it and if so whether it is any good. They already tried
it once about 5 years ago when MJ was kidnapped, but then they brought her
back. That plot was certainly very poorly done. As for the use of Mephisto,
I don't see a problem with it. Since when is there a ban on using characters
from the MU which haven't appeared in the title before? Especially one like
Mephisto who is really a generic character, not just a Marvel one. It is
worth noting that JMS has been introducing more mystical elements to the
character of Spidey for several years now. Also, I kind of like the way
Mephisto doesn't buy souls any more, just enjoys misery. It's spookier.
Andy
Lilith
wrote:
They have to use Mephisto because Loki is in an indeterminate state at
the moment. Previously de-bodified.
>Andy
--
Lilith
Hand-of-Omega
> They have to use Mephisto because Loki is in an indeterminate state at
> the moment. Previously de-bodified.
>
>
Yeah, Loki would really have worked a LOT better. True, he's "de-
bodified" right now, but we know he's coming back, and since have
Marvel let a little thing like continuity and the right order of
stories get in their way?!
I'm still hoping Peter somehow gets a visit from a Mr. Johnny Blaze,
who points out, from experience, what a bad deal this all is...What
happened to his father after Mephisto cured him, again?>_>
Dex
Hand-of-Omega
> Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com> wrote innews:Xns99FAE4F1D7992da...@130.133.1.4:
>
>
>
> > On 02 Dec 2007, Michael <thissp...@for.rent> wrote:
>
> >> grinningdemon wrote:
>
> >>> Actually, this whole storyline...and Civil War...and Sins Past
> >>> (basically all of the most hated Marvel stories of recent years) have
> >>> been chiefly shaped by editorial decisions (Quesada in
> >>> particular)...they question is not "what they do?" so much as "why
> >>> haven't they been fired yet?" I say bring in the monkeys with
> >>> typewriters...it's bound to be an improvement.
>
> >> Quesada dictated that Gwen Stacy have children out of wedlock by
> >> Norman Osborn from on high?
>
> > Yeah, sort of. JMS wanted Peter to be the father, but Joey Q's response
> > was "I say thee nay! Spider-Man is too young to have kids! And also too
> > young to be married, but I'll deal with that next year! This shall not
> > stand!"
>
> > Or words to that effect.
>
> Indeed. There are even spots in the story where you can tell the
> original idea was that Peter was the father.
The sad thing is, reading the interview where all this is revealed,
you really get to feel for JMS. As they told the story he had just
finished excitedly pitching the story to Quesada, who sits thinking
for a minute, then bursts out with: "I've got it! Make them *Norman
Osborn's* kids, instead!" (You can almost hear him thinking "I'm so
clever! The fans are really gonna hate me for this one! Booyah!!")
Joey Q himself almost gleefully describes the shocked silence
fromJMS, and the fact that it took some doing to talk him into this...
Dex
Hand-of-Omega
angrier I get at him for this. Is he REALLY onboard for this? Does he
actually think this is a good idea? Or is he just following orders,
like with the Gwen's kids story?
I admit to not following ALL of his work, but what I have read and
watched seemed touched with uncommon wisdom. The issue where Dr.
Strange is explaining to Peter that he must let go of May and
why...THAT seemed like the authentic voice of JMS. I honestly believe
that, if he actually owned this property and was his own boss, then
Peter would of course be tempted, very much so...But he would
ultimately refuse. Because, while painful and hard, it is the Right
thing to do.
Can someone who has read most or all of JMS' work tell me if I am
wrong here? Is that not a story he would tell?
If not, then I guess he wasn't the writer I thought he was. If so,
then what the hell is he doing writing this?
I mean, if your boss tells you to write a story that you honestly
think is a bad idea, then wouldn't it be the right thing to do to
stand up and say so? Sure you might lose your job, but the truth is
where it needs to be. PAD refused to dump on the Hulk when ordered to,
and he still gets lots of work from Marvel. And it's not like JMS is
some unknown company writer, surely he can get work at ANY comic
company. Hell, he doesn't have to work for anyone!
Is it just the fun of playing in Marvel's sandbox? Well, he's done
that for awhile now, but if they keep forcing these kinds of decisions
on him, then how much fun can that really be? I'm really trying not to
think of him as a shill who just does whatever the boss demands, but
it's getting more and more diffficult not to...
As things now stand, there's only two possibilities that give me hope
about this: One is that all the hype is just that, hype. That, at the
last moment, on the final page, Parker really *does* do the right
thing and tells Mephisto to go shove it. Comicdom breathes a longheld
sigh of relief, Joey Q gets his immature little thrill at having
ramped up reader tension, and JMS' integrity remains intact.
Or (and much more likely) they do go thru with it...But it's not all
cut and dried as we were led to believe. We're in for, say, a year of
single Spidey stories, but he starts to realize something is wrong,
and eventually a series of events occurs which restores the marriage.
Which they had planned all along (altho many skeptical fans will of
course claim that they simply reversed their disastrous course when
sales plummeted). Same result as above? If it really is a long term
plan, then...maaaybe.
Sorry for the rambling rant. On with the newsgroup!^_^
Dex
Hand-of-Omega
>
> Well, technically we don't know that he will decide to end his marriage. I
> agree that he probably will, as saving a life is worth more than saving a
> relationship. There are legitimate storytelling reasons for ending the MJ
> continuity>
Which are?
>Clearly they don't convince the conservatives on Usenet.
So, Quesada wants to dig a tunnel back to the distant past, back to
what Spider Man was like under Stan Lee...While we want to see the
character grow up and move on with his life like most adults and well
developed characters do...and WE'RE the conservatives??
You have a strange definition of "conservative", I think.
>We'll
> see whether the do it and if so whether it is any good. They already tried
> it once about 5 years ago when MJ was kidnapped, but then they brought her
> back. That plot was certainly very poorly done.
Poorly done or not, WHO was it who brought her back and set them back
together again? Oh, yeah, the current writer, JMS!
As for the use of Mephisto,
> I don't see a problem with it. Since when is there a ban on using characters
> from the MU which haven't appeared in the title before? Especially one like
> Mephisto who is really a generic character, not just a Marvel one. It is
> worth noting that JMS has been introducing more mystical elements to the
> character of Spidey for several years now. Also, I kind of like the way
> Mephisto doesn't buy souls any more, just enjoys misery. It's spookier.
>
This is true. Spidey may be a street level character, but he's
probably more flexible than folks give him credit for...
Dex
Billy Bissette
news:692f7c4e-bcb7-4981...@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 3, 10:15 pm, "ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, technically we don't know that he will decide to end his
>> marriage. I agree that he probably will, as saving a life is worth
>> more than saving a relationship. There are legitimate storytelling
>> reasons for ending the MJ continuity>
>
> Which are?
>
>>Clearly they don't convince the conservatives on Usenet.
>
> So, Quesada wants to dig a tunnel back to the distant past, back to
> what Spider Man was like under Stan Lee...While we want to see the
> character grow up and move on with his life like most adults and well
> developed characters do...and WE'RE the conservatives??
Stan Lee, who himself didn't seem to find issue with Peter marrying...
> You have a strange definition of "conservative", I think.
>> As for the use of Mephisto,
>> I don't see a problem with it. Since when is there a ban on using
>> characters from the MU which haven't appeared in the title before?
>> Especially one like Mephisto who is really a generic character, not
>> just a Marvel one. It is worth noting that JMS has been introducing
>> more mystical elements to the character of Spidey for several years
>> now. Also, I kind of like the way Mephisto doesn't buy souls any
>> more, just enjoys misery. It's spookier.
>>
> This is true. Spidey may be a street level character, but he's
> probably more flexible than folks give him credit for...
Spidey may be street level in theory, but he is also sort of a
figurehead for the concept of a shared universe, as he has met and
interacted with nearly everybody. Science, magic, aliens, cosmic
threats... Heck, just remember where Venom came from... Or
consider some of the allies Spidey has fought beside... Or the
enemies he has fought against.
Tony
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:28:12 -0800 (PST), Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
--given how vehemently against the marriage Joe Q is, I can easily see
them going through this. It's just like following the wake of the
Clone Saga where Marvel swept the Clone and Baby May under the rug by
flashing forward several months. They told the tale, and then
promptly dropped it so they could tell other stories.
Tony (who's _seriously_ hoping sales on the Spiderman titles drop
quite a bit as a result of this insipid, poorly inspired story)
Tony
>
> - Show quoted text -
--to this--despite my intense dislike of Joe Q's feelings on the
marriage--I have to say that it's within his purview. Looking back at
comments made by Jim Shooter when he was EIC, I realize that it's the
job of the EIC to be custodian of these characters and do what *they*
think is best to keep up interest and longevity of the character. So
despite what I think of the situation, I do believe Quesada is acting
with this mandate in mind.
Tony
Tony
> "Tony" <TonyJ1...@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:d6bd3e9a-d5f0-48cb...@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> [SNIP]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Actually, I don't know what you guys are crapping on about. One more day
> >> was
> >> getting a bit boring until Mephisto appeared in this issue. I'm actually
> >> interested in the next issue of SSM for once. Although I must admit the
> >> Dr
> >> Bong idea isn't bad :-}
>
> > >Andy- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >- Show quoted text -
>
> >--largely the fact that Mephisto has no place in Spider-Man stories,
> >and MORE IMPORTANTLY, he's being used as the vehicle to UNmarry Peter
> >and MJ. �Which is an idea that sucks so much it's in the annals of
> >suckiest ideas ever.
>
> >Tony
>
> Well, technically we don't know that he will decide to end his marriage.
--well, given the spoilers about this story, we know *Peter* doesn't
decide anything. That's supposed to fall on MJ's shoulders. She's
the one who's supposed to preempt Peter's decision and choose to save
May, at the cost of their marriage, thus preventing us from ever
knowing which one Peter would have chosen.
> I
> agree that he probably will, as saving a life is worth more than saving a
> relationship. There are legitimate storytelling reasons for ending the MJ
> continuity.
--can you name any reasons that aren't currently covered by the
existence of Ultimate Spiderman? Every single reason Quesada has
given for Spiderman being single is covered by _that_ book. We don't
need the mainstream title being a near identical counterpart to the
Ultimate title. It's redundant.
> Clearly they don't convince the conservatives on Usenet. We'll
> see whether the do it and if so whether it is any good. They already tried
> it once about 5 years ago when MJ was kidnapped, but then they brought her
> back. That plot was certainly very poorly done. As for the use of Mephisto,
> I don't see a problem with it. Since when is there a ban on using characters
> from the MU which haven't appeared in the title before?
--it's not a ban.
It's the notion that certain characters are not a good fit for certain
heroes. Mystical/supernatural demons are not a natural fit for the
everyman joe like Spiderman. He's a street level hero, and when you
take him out of his element like this story is doing, it takes away
what actually *does* work with Spiderman (which paradoxically, is what
Joe is trying to "regain" by OMD).
I liken the presence of Mephisto in Spiderman to having the Punisher
show up in a Dr. Strange story. It *can* be done, but it's a
completely different ballpark, and one that really doesn't belong in
the context of the other.
Especially one like
> Mephisto who is really a generic character, not just a Marvel one. It is
> worth noting that JMS has been introducing more mystical elements to the
> character of Spidey for several years now. Also, I kind of like the way
> Mephisto doesn't buy souls any more, just enjoys misery. It's spookier.
>
> Andy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tony
Tony
> On Dec 3, 10:15 pm, "ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Well, technically we don't know that he will decide to end his marriage. I
> > agree that he probably will, as saving a life is worth more than saving a
> > relationship. There are legitimate storytelling reasons for ending the MJ
> > continuity>
>
> Which are?
>
> >Clearly they don't convince the conservatives on Usenet.
>
> So, Quesada wants to dig a tunnel back to the distant past, back to
> what Spider Man was like under Stan Lee...While we want to see the
> character grow up and move on with his life like most adults and well
> developed characters do...and WE'RE the conservatives??
--moreover, Joe wants Spiderman to revert 20+ years, while his
readership stays the same. He acts like readers are going to come in
droves to the title just b/c he's single and has relationship
problems. Instead of appealing to the existing audience, he's hoping
to garner newer readers from out of thin air.
>
> You have a strange definition of "conservative", I think.
>
> >We'll
> > see whether the do it and if so whether it is any good. They already tried
> > it once about 5 years ago when MJ was kidnapped, but then they brought her
> > back. That plot was certainly very poorly done.
>
> Poorly done or not, WHO was it who brought her back and set them back
> together again? Oh, yeah, the current writer, JMS!
>
> As for the use of Mephisto,> I don't see a problem with it. Since when is there a ban on using characters
> > from the MU which haven't appeared in the title before? Especially one like
> > Mephisto who is really a generic character, not just a Marvel one. It is
> > worth noting that JMS has been introducing more mystical elements to the
> > character of Spidey for several years now. Also, I kind of like the way
> > Mephisto doesn't buy souls any more, just enjoys misery. It's spookier.
>
> This is true. Spidey may be a street level character, but he's
> probably more flexible than folks give him credit for...
>
> Dex
--and while this is true (certainly, Spiderman has faced demons,
monsters, aliens, robots, etc), when you're telling a tale that's
supposed to strike at the core of Spidey, and be about what he loves
and cherishes, I question the wisdom of not placing that story
squarely in the realm to which Spiderman was born (and I'm speaking of
the street level; not the larger Marvel Universe).
Tony
jms...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Speak of the devil and he shall appear....
For whatever it's worth, the situation is not as clear cut as one
might hope. The reality of any writer workingfor any company, DC or
Marvel or Image, is that when you're handed a franchise character,
you're basically entrusted with something that the company owns, and
the company has final say in what happens to that character, because
as a writer, you're only there for a certain amount of time and then
the next guy has to come in. Spider-Man belongs to Marvel, not to me,
and at the end of the day, however much I may disagree with things,
and however much I may make it very CLEAR to all parties that I
disagree, I have to honor their position.
In the Gwen storyline, yes, I wanted it to be Peter's kids, Joe over-
rode that, which is his right as EIC. I got the flack for that
decision, but them's the breaks.
In the current storyline, there's a lot that I don't agree with, and I
made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel,
especially Joe. I'll be honest: there was a point where I made the
decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last
two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that
decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe
or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those. As an
executive producer as well as a writer, I've sometimes had to insist
that my writers make changes that they did not want to make, often
loudly so. They were sure I was wrong. Mostly I was right.
Sometimes I was wrong. But whoever sits in the editor's chair, or the
executive producer's chair, wears the pointy hat of authority, and as
Dave Sim once noted, you can't argue with a pointy hat.
So at the end of the day, all one can do is try to do the best one can
with the notes one is given, and try to execute them in a professional
way...because who knows, the other guy may be right. The only thing I
*can* tell you, with absolute certainty, is that what Joe does with
Spidey and all the rest of the Marvel characters, he does out of a
genuine love of the character. He's not looking to sabotage anything,
he's not looking to piss off the fans, he genuinely believes in the
rightness of his views not out of a sense of "I'm the boss" but
because he loves these characters and the Marvel universe.
And right or wrong, you have to respect that.
jms
badbad
Well I have to thank you for entering the Usenet Octagon.
The signal to noise ratio can be quite large at Newsarama (or others) so
I cannot get a bead on how other fans segment feel. I can only speak on
my behalf.
Let this message be placed as a letter at the end of the trade paperback
and I think it would give context to the storyline. I would feel
satisfied (not content), but satisfied because at least I know the
creators are steering a ship and not paddling without a rudder.
I think it is good to see that the people in charge have a direction
whether I agree or disagree. Execution of the next story (the story
after) is important (in my opinion).
Although I still like my Dr. Bong idea. ;)
\
badbad
Lilith
wrote:
>On Dec 3, 5:47 pm, Michael <thissp...@for.rent> wrote:
>> Tony wrote:
>> > On Dec 2, 8:38?pm, "ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>"grinningdemon" <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:1er4l3lurpseu0n0e...@4ax.com...
>>
>> >>>On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:31:34 -0800, Michael <thissp...@for.rent>
>> >>>wrote:
>>
>> >>>>badbad wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>Tony wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>Back during the Clone Saga, when Marvel was trying to figure a way to
>> >>>>>>backpeddle and put Peter back in the suit, there were many scenarios
>> >>>>>>writers and editors came up with. ?A couple of them featured cosmic/
>> >>>>>>supernatural outs, but the editors wisely realized that using Judas
>> >>>>>>Traveller or Mephisto to under/mastermind the Clone Saga was too far
>> >>>>>>away from the world of Spider-Man. ? It's a shame the current
>> >>>>>>editorial regime doesn't realize that.
>>
>> >>>>>>Tony
>>
>> >>>>>Why couldn't they have used Dr. Bong instead of Mephisto? ? Dr. Bong
>> >>>>>hits Spidey on the head. Then the clones, neo Gwen Stacy, Civil War and
>> >>>>>everything after is a delirious concussion.
>>
>> >>>>>Why couldn't they have said that everything after issue 280 was all fake
>> >>>>>because J. Jonah Jameson used the cosmic cube because Peter used Nair on
>> >>>>>?Man-Wolf?
>>
>> >>>>>Why couldn't they have said that everything after issue 320 was a
>> >>>>>nightmare caused by indigestion when Peter eats Mary Janes first
>> >>>>>home-cooked meal?
>>
>> >>>>>Why make a re-boot with a supernatural creature when it isn't even one
>> >>>>>of Spidey's traditional villains?
>>
>> >>>>>Why don't they hire editors?
>>
>> >>>>>Why?
>>
>> >>>>>Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>>
>> >>>>>Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>>>>Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>>>>Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>>>>Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why? ?Why?
>> >>>>>\
>>
>> >>>>>badbad
>>
>> >>>>They DO hire editors!
>>
>> >>>>WHAT those editors DO these days is a mystery to me.
>>
>> >>>>Play Jarts I guess.
>>
>> >>>>Michael
>>
>> >>>Actually, this whole storyline...and Civil War...and Sins Past
>> >>>(basically all of the most hated Marvel stories of recent years) have
>> >>>been chiefly shaped by editorial decisions (Quesada in
>> >>>particular)...they question is not "what they do?" so much as "why
>> >>>haven't they been fired yet?" ?I say bring in the monkeys with
>> >>>typewriters...it's bound to be an improvement.
>>
>> >>Actually, I don't know what you guys are crapping on about. One more day was
>> >>getting a bit boring until Mephisto appeared in this issue. I'm actually
>> >>interested in the next issue of SSM for once. Although I must admit the Dr
>> >>Bong idea isn't bad :-}
>>
>> >>Andy- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >>- Show quoted text -
>>
>> > --largely the fact that Mephisto has no place in Spider-Man stories,
>> > and MORE IMPORTANTLY, he's being used as the vehicle to UNmarry Peter
>> > and MJ. Which is an idea that sucks so much it's in the annals of
>> > suckiest ideas ever.
>>
>> The personal opinion of the EID MUST take precedence over what the fans
>> want!
>>
>> Michael- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>--to this--despite my intense dislike of Joe Q's feelings on the
>marriage--I have to say that it's within his purview. Looking back at
>comments made by Jim Shooter when he was EIC, I realize that it's the
>job of the EIC to be custodian of these characters and do what *they*
>think is best to keep up interest and longevity of the character. So
>despite what I think of the situation, I do believe Quesada is acting
>with this mandate in mind.
Not much good if he's letting his own biases take precedence over
reader preferences. He apparently doesn't have sales in mind if he's
letting his own prejudices inspire his business thinking. And he
probably thinks his reasoning is based on business sense.
>Tony
--
Lilith
Alan....@gmail.com
Firstly, may I say that I respect the hell out of JMS for taking the
time to discuss his position here. You could probably count the
number of creators who would have the guts to do this on one hand
(JMS, Dan Slott, Kurt Busiek, PAD...that might be it). Thank you,
JMS, for your open honesty. I do have to say that the fact that JMS
requested that his name be dropped from the last two issues of the arc
cannot bode well for the inevitable ending that most of us are
expecting. At the end of the day, despite how much Joe Q. professes
to love Spidey, the entire execution and premise of the story simply
does not make logical sense. You have Peter saying that he wants May
to live to a ripe old age and die peacefully in her bed, yet she has
already lived to said ripe old age and then some. That doesn't make
her life carry any less worth, but if we're talking about a person
who's lived a lifetime versus your life partner with whom you hope to
build a family with kids and grandkids, it just seems nonsensical that
Peter--or MJ for that matter (since it appears at the end of the
latest part that it's she, and not Peter, who is thinking about making
this deal)--would even think for a nanosecond about accepting this
deal. And for crying out loud, this is Mephisto we're talking about!
We're talking about essentially taking a large dump on Peter and/or
MJ's sense of right and wrong by having either one of them go through
with this. Thoughts?
Tony
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:04:56 -0800 (PST), Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
--the thing is, as I mentioned in another post, and as JMS just
(kindly I might add) alluded to, it's all part of the caretaker
process. I can't accurately describe my intense dislike of where this
story is going, but I'm not one of the readers who thinks Joe is
trying to ruin any of the Marvel characters. I believe that *he*
believes he's shepherding them. That doesn't mean they're *not* going
to be ruined. It doesn't mean all his decisions are going to be for
the best. But I do believe he's looking out for the best interests of
the characters and the company.
Tony (OMD still sucks though)
Tony
--I can't really say anything that I haven't already said, but thanks
for coming here and clarifying (as much as you could) your position as
well as Joe's.
Tony
Raven
> Yeah, sort of. JMS wanted Peter to be the father, but Joey Q's response
> was "I say thee nay! Spider-Man is too young to have kids! And also too
> young to be married, but I'll deal with that next year! This shall not
> stand!"
Too young to have kids?
Are Peter and MJ so much younger than Susan Richards when she had
Franklin?
And weren't Harry Osborn and his wife Liz Allen the same age of Peter
and MJ? Before Harry's untimely demise, they had been married for
ages, and have a child (lil' Normie) who has already passed
kindergarden age...
mimf
>
> Speak of the devil and he shall appear....
[worthless fanboy post alert]
Wow! It is so cool that you took the time to post in here!
[/end worthless fanboy post alert]
Most devils that I speak of can't be bothered to appear.
grinningdemon
True enough...I too, am happy to see JMS explain his reasoning here (I
greatly appreciate it). I would like to see more creators do
this...not necessarily here in this group (they could address these
things in interviews though it seems they rarely do), but there have
been a lot of controversial decisions and storylines in recent years,
from both Marvel and DC, and I would like some of those responsible to
explain their reasoning...for instance, I would like to see some
explanations from Quesada on some of these issues (especially OMD).
Billy Bissette
news:sojcl3la36eq39isl...@4ax.com:
Well, more creators used to post. That seems to have stopped
entirely in the last few years though, for various reasons.
It certainly made things like the problems in Priest's run on
Deadpool more understandable when he posted. Or Simone giving info
on Agent X. Or simply getting the medical updates on why Astro
City was getting delayed back in the day.
Tony
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:34:20 -0500, mimf <m...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:37:08 -0800, jmsa...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >> Speak of the devil and he shall appear....
>
> >[worthless fanboy post alert]
> >Wow! It is so cool that you took the time to post in here! �
> >[/end worthless fanboy post alert]
>
> >Most devils that I speak of can't be bothered to appear.
>
> True enough...I too, am happy to see JMS explain his reasoning here (I
> greatly appreciate it). �I would like to see more creators do
> this...not necessarily here in this group (they could address these
> things in interviews though it seems they rarely do), but there have
> been a lot of controversial decisions and storylines in recent years,
> from both Marvel and DC, and I would like some of those responsible to
> explain their reasoning...for instance, I would like to see some
> explanations from Quesada on some of these issues (especially OMD).
--I've been coming to comic book forums for the better part of a
decade, and I've seen fewer and fewer creators actively posting online
like I used to. JMS' post was one of the few I've seen this year. I
don't know the reasons why (though I have some supicions regarding
some creators), but it's clear that many of them lurk, but they don't
post.
As for explanations from Joe Q regarding OMD, he's made his opinion of
the marriage blantantly clear in the last year or two. What he's not
done is explain why his adage "you can do more with an unmarried
Spidey than you can with a married one" has to apply to the 616
version when you've got the Ultimate Spidey title. Why have both
versions be so similar. One becomes redundant.
Of all the questions posed to him and all the answers he's given, I've
yet to see him answer that one.
Tony
hank.d...@gmail.com
>
> jms
Y'know what? Not so much.
I work in a similar field, and you really don't have to respect people
who claim they love the characters even as they destroy what's made
you love those same characters. I've grown up with Peter, I love
where he's gone, ups and downs, and I read both the young Peter in
Ultimate Spider-Man and the adult Peter in the 616 stories. His
relationship with Mary Jane is a fundamental part of where Peter has
grown as a character.
The events of the OMD arc have made me stop buying Spider-Man comics.
For 20+ years, I've bought all the Spider-Man titles, and I had the
comics up through the end of OMD pre-ordered before I knew the details
of its conclusion, but for everything after OMD I've turned off pre-
orders. I'm sure these events have done the same for many others...
the only way to genuinely be heard is to stop handing money to Marvel
for this character, not to yell loudly on internet groups while
continuing to buy the comics. :(
I have great respect for you as a writer, but the last issue made my
stomach turn.
Tony
--thank you.
I'm glad to hear there are others who are actively dropping the
Amazing Spider-Man in protest over this junk. Maybe enough of us will
and Marvel will be forced (ala the Clone Saga) to relent.
Tony
mimf
Actually you'd be better served if I continued to buy it -- especially if
I enjoy it. Marvel has a habit of cancelling the series I look forward
to the most -- or altering them beyond all recognition. For example... The
Thing - gone. Cable & Deadpool - on the way out. She-Hulk - new direction.
The Avengers - FUBAR. I'm surprised Runaways has lasted as long as it has.
So you see if I buy and enjoy this new iteration of Amazing Spider-Man, it
won't be long for this world.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Dec 5, 9:55?am, hank.drisk...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > And right or wrong, you have to respect that.
>>
>> > jms
>>
>> Y'know what? ?Not so much.
>>
>> I work in a similar field, and you really don't have to respect people
>> who claim they love the characters even as they destroy what's made
>> you love those same characters. ?I've grown up with Peter, I love
>> where he's gone, ups and downs, and I read both the young Peter in
>> Ultimate Spider-Man and the adult Peter in the 616 stories. ?His
>> relationship with Mary Jane is a fundamental part of where Peter has
>> grown as a character.
>>
>> The events of the OMD arc have made me stop buying Spider-Man comics.
>> For 20+ years, I've bought all the Spider-Man titles, and I had the
>> comics up through the end of OMD pre-ordered before I knew the details
>> of its conclusion, but for everything after OMD I've turned off pre-
>> orders. ?I'm sure these events have done the same for many others...
>> the only way to genuinely be heard is to stop handing money to Marvel
>> for this character, not to yell loudly on internet groups while
>> continuing to buy the comics. :(
>>
>> I have great respect for you as a writer, but the last issue made my
>> stomach turn.
>
>--thank you.
>I'm glad to hear there are others who are actively dropping the
>Amazing Spider-Man in protest over this junk. Maybe enough of us will
>and Marvel will be forced (ala the Clone Saga) to relent.
>
>Tony
I'm going to get the last OMD issue just to cap off my collection and
sufficiently sicken me so I won't buy another issue...after that,
Ultimate Spiderman will have to hold me over until/unless this madness
subsides...I hate to do it since I too have been collecting Spidey for
almost 20 years (the Clone Saga didn't even drive me off) and because
I think some of the new creators coming on could actually do a decent
job under other circumstances but I'm done.
grinningdemon
I have the same problem with DC...they're in my head, man...and,
clearly, they hate me.
Tony
--I enjoyed that book too.
However, I don't think it was necessary, nor do I feel it had a
purpose.
> Cable & Deadpool - on the way out.
--been buying it since the start, but it hasn't been all that great
since its first year.
> She-Hulk - new direction.
--no one's fault really. Dan was ready to move on.
Peter David is a more than adequate successor.
> The Avengers - FUBAR.
--no argument there.
I long for the day when Bendis is not associated with the Avengers.
>I'm surprised Runaways has lasted as long as it has.
> So you see if I buy and enjoy this new iteration of Amazing Spider-Man, it
> won't be long for this world.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--well then, by all means I hope you enjoy ASM :)
Tony
Tony
> On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:04:16 -0800 (PST), Tony <TonyJ1...@aol.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
--I too wasn't driven off by the Clone Saga (largely b/c many of the
elements of it were intriguing). I was partially driven off by JMS'
insistence on the Totem related stories on ASM, but at least I had
Peter David's FNSM book to read. Now I won't be reading any Spider-
Man titles (except Ulimtate SM in trades).
Tony (who was sufficiently sickened just by reading OMD part 3)
grinningdemon
wrote:
>> >Amazing Spider-Man in protest over this junk. ?Maybe enough of us will
>> >and Marvel will be forced (ala the Clone Saga) to relent.
>>
>> >Tony
>>
>> I'm going to get the last OMD issue just to cap off my collection and
>> sufficiently sicken me so I won't buy another issue...after that,
>> Ultimate Spiderman will have to hold me over until/unless this madness
>> subsides...I hate to do it since I too have been collecting Spidey for
>> almost 20 years (the Clone Saga didn't even drive me off) and because
>> I think some of the new creators coming on could actually do a decent
>> job under other circumstances but I'm done.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>--I too wasn't driven off by the Clone Saga (largely b/c many of the
>elements of it were intriguing). I was partially driven off by JMS'
>insistence on the Totem related stories on ASM, but at least I had
>Peter David's FNSM book to read. Now I won't be reading any Spider-
>Man titles (except Ulimtate SM in trades).
>
>Tony (who was sufficiently sickened just by reading OMD part 3)
Despite common opinion, the Clone Saga did have it's moments.
I was pretty happy with JMS's Spiderman up until Sins Past...I didn't
care much for the spider totem stuff either but I loved his
characterization (with Peter, MJ, and May)...I loved the way he had
May discover the secret (actually made her interesting for the first
and only time in the history of Spiderman)...and I loved the way he
brought Peter and MJ back together...Peter's interaction with his
students was fun too (I thought teaching was a perfect fit for
him)...and I especially loved the little moments he would throw in
with Spiderman encountering average New Yorkers (bumming popcorn off a
guy in his balcony, getting a ticket from a cop for riding on the hood
of a car, etc.)...I just wish JMS had worked in some of the other
traditional supporting cast (he still could have taken some pics for
the Bugle on the side or something)...after Sins Past, JMS just didn't
seem to care anymore...the stories and characterization went downhill
fast.
I liked some of Peter David's FNSM (I really liked the way he reset
Flash Thompson and brought in some of the other supporting characters
that hadn't been around in a while)...but I think he would have done
so much better if he hadn't been hampered by crossovers and the events
of other books.
My favorite Spider-book lately has actually been Sensational
Spiderman...it hasn't been great but it has been consistently
entertaining (I could have done without Black Cat hooking up with Puma
though)...and I really loved the Annual by Matt Fraction...it was just
about the only really good story to come from all this Back in Black
nonsense.
Oh well, at least I'll have a little extra cash each month from now
on.
Lilith
>So at the end of the day, all one can do is try to do the best one can
>with the notes one is given, and try to execute them in a professional
>way...because who knows, the other guy may be right. The only thing I
>*can* tell you, with absolute certainty, is that what Joe does with
>Spidey and all the rest of the Marvel characters, he does out of a
>genuine love of the character. He's not looking to sabotage anything,
>he's not looking to piss off the fans, he genuinely believes in the
>rightness of his views not out of a sense of "I'm the boss" but
>because he loves these characters and the Marvel universe.
Then I have to ask why, if he loves the characters, he feels he needs
to give Peter more pain? He may have loved the character at that
phase of his fan-ship but now that he has control why would any sane
person with such power heap more pain on the hero? And why would he
think that readers would want to see this kind of thing happening?
Peter has enough troubles to keep him in storylines for quite some
time. To pull out the only thing good in his life is worse than
plunging a knife into his gut.
>And right or wrong, you have to respect that.
Sorry, I don't think it's right. Most people in power have advisors.
It's the really bad ones that don't listen to them.
>jms
--
Lilith
ozandy
news:91vfl3dijl41i874f...@4ax.com...
[snip]
>
> Then I have to ask why, if he loves the characters, he feels he needs
> to give Peter more pain? He may have loved the character at that
> phase of his fan-ship but now that he has control why would any sane
> person with such power heap more pain on the hero? And why would he
> think that readers would want to see this kind of thing happening?
> Peter has enough troubles to keep him in storylines for quite some
> time. To pull out the only thing good in his life is worse than
> plunging a knife into his gut.
>
> Lilith
One of the classic motifs in the original character was that he was always
in pain. He was an insecure teenager with super-powers. Nothing ever went
right for him. Then he got married to a supermodel, for chrissakes. And all
the nonsense for the last 20 years has been about trying to get back to the
old spidey. Personally, I'm looking forward to a romance with the Black Cat.
Andy
swintronix
"ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote in message
news:4vW5j.19488$t31.14810@trnddc02...
The "old" Spidey is so boring though. Let him be married. Most of the
people who read his books now are old enough to be married. I don't want to
read about the modern version of teen-suffering Spidey... like something
straight out of a CW teen drama ala Smallville. Besides, they already have
Ultimate Spidey for that. And reading classic silver/bronze-age Spidey is
about as interesting as reading Archie or Mark Trail. And they already have
Marvel Adventures Spidey for that. Just let the 616 Spidey be a grown-up
with his life slightly together. Brand New Day is the ultimate "jumping
off" point.
Anlatt the Builder
> "Lilith" <lil...@dcccd.edu> ha scritto nel messaggionews:91vfl3dijl41i874f...@4ax.com...
One of the classic motifs in the original character is that he
CHANGED. Becoming Spider-Man woke him up. He stood up to bullies, and
became more popular in school. He got rid of his glasses. He got up
the nerve to talk to girls he was interested in, and started dating
the stunning Gwen Stacy. He grieved over her death, but perservered,
and finally married MJ.
This is called character development.
If they want to make changes to Peter's life - increase the
insecurity, destabilize his personal relationships - they should (in
the great Spider-Man tradition) do that through character development
too. Divorce happens; death happens. He can react to changes in his
life in a manner that makes sense with his character as it has
developed so far, and will develop further.
Or you can say: "We're going to undo the last 20 years of Peter
Parker's character develeopment by a flick-of-the-switch retcon. The
events that meant something to him will simply unhappen. This may give
you the impression that, in the world in which a comic book character
like Spider-Man lives, events, actions, and choices don't have
consequences if we decide, by fiat, that they don't. Well, that's why
they call it 'comic-book writing.' We realize that this will also
cause massive confusion concerning what the new, changed history of
Spider-Man actually was (since obviously him not getting married would
affect a lot of other things), and how it affects the histories and
lives of his friends and enemies. Don't worry about it; since
character development isn't important, the question of what happened
in a character's past is entirely irrelevant."
If they were actually going to go back to the beginnings of his life
with MJ and rewrite all the stories (not only of him, but of his
relationships of with the Avengers, the FF, etc.) from there on, then
at least the readers will no what happened. But they're not going to
do that, are they? They're just going to make a major change in the
character's past and then give us his current status in summary form.
This is not how you build a solid character.
Admittedly, I don't see why he needs to be unmarried. But if he does,
there are ways to do it without a massive, midstream retcon.
grinningdemon
I agree...personally, I'm happy to have him married to MJ...but, if
they have to split them up, they don't have to pretend the marriage
never happened in the first place...it seems like a slap in the face
to anyone who read and enjoyed Spiderman at any point in the last 20
years...and, since most current readers weren't reading that far back,
it seems like an odd choice that will only alienate current fans...I
can't imagine the new writers attracted by the new direction (if there
are any) off-setting the exodus of past readers.
Nathan P. Mahney
"Tony" <Tony...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3aec91ff-846c-4b91...@b15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 1:17?am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:34:20 -0500, mimf <m...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:37:08 -0800, jmsa...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >> Speak of the devil and he shall appear....
>
> >[worthless fanboy post alert]
> >[/end worthless fanboy post alert]
>
> >Most devils that I speak of can't be bothered to appear.
>
> True enough...I too, am happy to see JMS explain his reasoning here (I
> this...not necessarily here in this group (they could address these
> things in interviews though it seems they rarely do), but there have
> been a lot of controversial decisions and storylines in recent years,
> from both Marvel and DC, and I would like some of those responsible to
> explain their reasoning...for instance, I would like to see some
> explanations from Quesada on some of these issues (especially OMD).
--I've been coming to comic book forums for the better part of a
decade, and I've seen fewer and fewer creators actively posting online
like I used to. JMS' post was one of the few I've seen this year. I
don't know the reasons why (though I have some supicions regarding
some creators), but it's clear that many of them lurk, but they don't
post.
I think it's mostly a question of volume. The marvel newsgroups are pretty
dead these days. You still see a lot of pros posting on message boards,
simply because that's where most of the discussion is now.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
Hand-of-Omega
shows up to talk to me! That's it, I'm never going off the internet
again!^_^
On Dec 4, 3:37 am, "jmsa...@aol.com" <jmsa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Speak of the devil and he shall appear....
>
So long as you don't offer to reboot my continuity...^_~
First of all, thank you very much for standing up and clarifying your
position. Especially in such civil terms, to someone who all but
called you a hack. I don't mean that, and have the highest respect for
your work, which is why this bothered me so much. Hearing about how
things work like this does help restore my faith in you as a writer,
if not in the system you have to work in...
> The only thing I
> *can* tell you, with absolute certainty, is that what Joe does with
> Spidey and all the rest of the Marvel characters, he does out of a
> genuine love of the character. He's not looking to sabotage anything,
> he's not looking to piss off the fans, he genuinely believes in the
> rightness of his views not out of a sense of "I'm the boss" but
> because he loves these characters and the Marvel universe.
>
> And right or wrong, you have to respect that.
>
Well, that's just the thing: How many of our beloved characters have
we fans had to recently watch being violated and brutalized by
creators who claim nothing but the greatest love for them (quite
literally, in Brad Melter's case)? If my brother-in-law keeps telling
me that he truly and deeply loves my sister, and yet she keeps turning
up with black eyes and broken bones...Then what am I to think?
When words and actions conflict, believe actions.
>jms
Dex
ozandy
I asked my comic shop guy (Washington DC) whether many of his customers were
saying the same thing. He surprised me by saying that, in fact, a number of
people have said they will start picking up Spiderman as soon as the reboot
is done. Interesting. Some people must be seeing it as a good jumping-on
point.
Andy
swintronix
I have never heard a comic shop guy truly speak ill of any event. They
really need to sell all the comic books they can.
grinningdemon
The guy who runs my shop rants and raves against the possibility of a
reboot but he's still stubbornly insistent that it's all a fake-out
and it won't actually happen...I wish I still believed that...but
JMS's post all but confirmed it.
Billy Bissette
news:8Zo6j.5004$fl7...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net:
>
> "ozandy" <nos...@myprovider.com> wrote in message
> news:4yo6j.399$bW.396@trnddc07...
>> Since so many of you are saying you are going to drop Spidey because
>> of OMD, I asked my comic shop guy (Washington DC) whether many of his
>> customers were saying the same thing. He surprised me by saying that,
>> in fact, a number of people have said they will start picking up
>> Spiderman as soon as the reboot is done. Interesting. Some people
>> must be seeing it as a good jumping-on point.
>
> I have never heard a comic shop guy truly speak ill of any event.
> They really need to sell all the comic books they can.
Marvel keeps doing events because they do generate sales, though.
I wouldn't be surprised if people are going to start picking up
Spider-Man once the reboot is done. Some because they want it that
way, and some just curious. I also wouldn't be surprised if a decent
percentage of those grumbling about it either aren't going to drop
the book yet, or don't even currently buy the book.
ozandy
news:8Zo6j.5004$fl7...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
Ken Arromdee
Hand-of-Omega <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I mean, if your boss tells you to write a story that you honestly
>think is a bad idea, then wouldn't it be the right thing to do to
>stand up and say so? Sure you might lose your job, but the truth is
>where it needs to be. PAD refused to dump on the Hulk when ordered to,
>and he still gets lots of work from Marvel. And it's not like JMS is
>some unknown company writer, surely he can get work at ANY comic
>company. Hell, he doesn't have to work for anyone!
>...
>As things now stand, there's only two possibilities that give me hope
>about this: One is that all the hype is just that, hype. That, at the
>last moment, on the final page, Parker really *does* do the right
>thing and tells Mephisto to go shove it. Comicdom breathes a longheld
>sigh of relief, Joey Q gets his immature little thrill at having
>ramped up reader tension, and JMS' integrity remains intact.
The problem is, the right thing to do isn't clear and you can argue that
saving the life over saving the relationship makes sense (though I still
have my doubts; your 70 year old aunt would *not* want you to destroy your
life to give her a few more years). Rather, the situation is very contrived
so as to *make* that the right choice.
(Once again, anyone remember the Astro City story "Memories of You"?)
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"In a superhero story, Superman jumps off buildings and flies. In a realistic
story, Superman doesn't jump off buildings and can't fly. Deconstruction is
writing a story where Superman can't fly but he still jumps off of buildings."
Ken Arromdee
>> In the Gwen storyline, yes, I wanted it to be Peter's kids, Joe over-
>> rode that, which is his right as EIC. I got the flack for that
>> decision, but them's the breaks.
I suggest everyone do a Google Groups search for Straczynski and Sins Past.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe/msg/4522617841f18c01
Read all of his posts in the whole thread.
It's clear that he defended Sins Past and thought it was a good idea, even if
the original concept came from Quesada. He got the flack for the decision
because he accepted it as his own.
Kenneth M. Lin
> Back during the Clone Saga, when Marvel was trying to figure a way to
> backpeddle and put Peter back in the suit, there were many scenarios
> writers and editors came up with. A couple of them featured cosmic/
> supernatural outs, but the editors wisely realized that using Judas
> Traveller or Mephisto to under/mastermind the Clone Saga was too far
> away from the world of Spider-Man. It's a shame the current
> editorial regime doesn't realize that.
>
By current editorial regime you mean Joe Q. era. I am under the impression
that he's the only one pushing for unmarried Peter Parker because of some
personal jealously toward a fictional character. Even JMS stated his
distaste toward OMD.
Ken
Tony
wrote:
> "Tony" <TonyJ1...@aol.com> wrote in message
--that's pretty much what I meant by editorial regime.
However, I think Joe's reasons for wanting a single Spider-Man are
completely sound. I just tend to think that idea is perfect for the
ULTIMATE version, not the mainstream character.
Tony
~consul
> On 2 Dic, 23:30, Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, sort of. JMS wanted Peter to be the father, but Joey Q's response
>> was "I say thee nay! Spider-Man is too young to have kids! And also too
>> young to be married, but I'll deal with that next year! This shall not
>> stand!"
> Too young to have kids?
> Are Peter and MJ so much younger than Susan Richards when she had
> Franklin?
> And weren't Harry Osborn and his wife Liz Allen the same age of Peter
> and MJ? Before Harry's untimely demise, they had been married for
> ages, and have a child (lil' Normie) who has already passed
> kindergarden age...
Well, back in the day, people led a different life. The push for marriage and family was a lot stronger. Nowadays, folks are looking to have their career before their family. I see this right now. It's actually kinda funny, as I work at a University, and meet incoming freshman and their parents and it's just ... well different to see parents who are in their 40's and parents who are in their 60'splus.
*I will acknowledge that maybe some parents just look reaaaaaaallllly old. :)
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>