Vertigo cancellations
Mark Millar
Well, they went up for a bit, but the crushing market collapse which
occured within weeks of my starting the book soon put a stop to that.
Sales were somewhere around twenty six thousand before I took over, but
everyone's sales halved in the months which followed and many other
books halved in sales again. Despite the awful economic climate, our
sales held up pretty well (thanks to good word of mouth) at somewhere
around twenty thousand copies until the end of my run.
I'd always planned the series as four arcs and, thanks to the support of
Stuart, Karen and Keri, I got to finish the story I started. We wrapped
up somewhere around eighteen thousand sales which, considering the
pretty bleak market at the time, I thought was pretty good. We had a
really got time on Swampy and (in my opinion) gave the big green bastard
a good send off.
MM
Mark Millar
As I mentioned in a posting the other day, DC let me finish my story and
it ended exactly where I intended when I took over. Thinking back, it
actually lasted one more issue thanks to the non-PC brainwave I had for
the Curt Swan fill-in issue.
>
> Also: do you know if Vertigo are intending to bring Swamp Thing back?
>
Haven't heard anything, but who knows? The Bissette rumours are
interesting, but I'm not sure how accurate they are. Personally, I've
done my Swampy story and couldn't imagine what to do with the character
from this point. If I do anything else for Vertigo (and I might) It's
going to be creator-owned and stuffed with as much swearing as possible.
Yours fucking sincerely, Mark The Bastard Millar
Duncan
(Would you have taken the story further & if so, how?)
Also: do you know if Vertigo are intending to bring Swamp Thing back?
Duncan
>
> > Couple of questions, Mark. Did you end the series where you intended to? (Would you have taken the story further & if so, how?)
>
> it ended exactly where I intended when I took over. Thinking back, it
> actually lasted one more issue thanks to the non-PC brainwave I had for
> the Curt Swan fill-in issue.
> >
> >
> interesting, but I'm not sure how accurate they are. Personally, I've
> done my Swampy story and couldn't imagine what to do with the character
> from this point. If I do anything else for Vertigo (and I might) It's
> going to be creator-owned and stuffed with as much swearing as possible.
>
> Yours fucking sincerely, Mark The Bastard Millar
Thanks and fuck off. So who put the orginal posting about Swampy coming
back then? I'm sure it was a DC-type person. Perhaps we'll never know...
Samael
Mark Millar wrote in message <35E8D4...@virgin.net>...
>> Also: do you know if Vertigo are intending to bring Swamp Thing back?
>>
>Haven't heard anything, but who knows? The Bissette rumours are
>interesting, but I'm not sure how accurate they are. Personally, I've
>done my Swampy story and couldn't imagine what to do with the character
>from this point. If I do anything else for Vertigo (and I might) It's
>going to be creator-owned and stuffed with as much swearing as possible.
>
>Yours fucking sincerely, Mark The Bastard Millar
He didn't say 'cunt'! He's being censored by DC! Either that or he's in on
it!
Trial by ordeal, it's the only way to discover his innocence!
(anyone got a duck?)
Samael
David J. Snyder
Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Thanks and fuck off. So who put the orginal posting about Swampy coming
>back then? I'm sure it was a DC-type person. Perhaps we'll never know...
At San Diego, Stuart Moore mentioned that Swamp Thing is coming
back written by someone who's name I don't remember and had never
heard of before. It's supposed to be concentrating on Tefe.
-Dave
--
"I'm going to kill them all. That ought to distract them."
-Buffy Summers, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Duncan
>
> In article <35EBEB...@airstream.co.uk>,
> Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Thanks and fuck off. So who put the orginal posting about Swampy coming
> >back then? I'm sure it was a DC-type person. Perhaps we'll never know...
>
> At San Diego, Stuart Moore mentioned that Swamp Thing is coming
> back written by someone who's name I don't remember and had never
> heard of before. It's supposed to be concentrating on Tefe.
>
misleed us...???
Samael
David J. Snyder wrote in message <6sgpov$gu8$1...@hiram.io.com>...
>In article <35EBEB...@airstream.co.uk>,
>Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks and fuck off. So who put the orginal posting about Swampy coming
>>back then? I'm sure it was a DC-type person. Perhaps we'll never know...
>
>At San Diego, Stuart Moore mentioned that Swamp Thing is coming
>back written by someone who's name I don't remember and had never
>heard of before. It's supposed to be concentrating on Tefe.
Isn't she dead????
I'm sure Mark Millar killed her off.
Not that that would stop a _real_ Vertigo character (or, indeed, most of the
Marvel Universe)
Samael
David J. Snyder
At the very end of Millar's run there was a line about how she was
still upset or some such, I believe.
Duncan
>
> >Isn't she dead????
> >
> >I'm sure Mark Millar killed her off.
> >
> She got better.
>
> At the very end of Millar's run there was a line about how she was
> still upset or some such, I believe.
>
swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark's storyline
nicely), and there's this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
short about the most famous A.H. of all - after all, it must have been
pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I'll write it
myself. Fuck it.
Mark Millar
This is fucking brilliant. I salute you, sir.
MM
Duncan
>
> Duncan wrote:
> >
> > Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
> > swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
> > be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark’s storyline
> > nicely), and there’s this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
> > track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
> > pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
> > know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I’ll write it
> > myself. Fuck it.
>
> This is fucking brilliant. I salute you, sir.
>
it you. It starts at Anton Arcane’s funeral in Berlin (full Catholic
rites now, right Mark?) Abbie takes John Constantine with her – who
else? – and they re-start their ‘affair’... etc. etc. The main story is
told in flashback. Small continuity problem with Caitlin’s last Dreaming
(good/bad Arcane), but that’s there anyway...
Jesus, if you want plot outlines, I got ‘em by the truckload. I posted
what I thought was a great Black Orchid/Dreaming crossover the other
day... American Freak and Mobfire could both do a comeback tour... and
since we’re on DC: I’ve always wondered why nobody’s done an Elseworlds
DC Universe/Cold War switcharound – Superman as the card-carrying
communist farmboy in love with his tractor and Batman (with his
sidekick, Renfield) as literally a bloodsucking capatalist from E Europe
– in an America which had a Red Revolution at the turn of the century,
at ‘war’ with a still-monarchist Russia. It’d work, dammit, it’d work...
Anyway, while you’re here, Mark: any plans to continue Shadowmen? Who’re
you going to replace Johnathon Woss with in the new Saviour, Letterman?
Or what?
Corey Klemow
>
> In article <35EBEB...@airstream.co.uk>,
> Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Thanks and fuck off. So who put the orginal posting about Swampy coming
> >back then? I'm sure it was a DC-type person. Perhaps we'll never know...
>
> At San Diego, Stuart Moore mentioned that Swamp Thing is coming
> back written by someone who's name I don't remember and had never
> heard of before. It's supposed to be concentrating on Tefe.
The author's name I've heard mentioned on this newsgroup is Carol Lay,
who writes the billiant "Story Minute" strip which, here in Los Angeles,
appears in the L.A. Weekly (along with Lynda Barry's "Ernie Pook's
Comeek", Matt Groening's "Life in Hell", and other such strips). My
guess is that it appears in the major cities in papers like the Village
Voice or the Boston Phoenix.
"Story Minute" also appears in a monthly magazine whose name I can't
remember ("Comic Relief", perhaps?) that specializes in collecting the
month's political and "alternative" strips.
James Dawson
>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark’s storyline
>nicely), and there’s this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
>short about the most famous A.H. of all – after all, it must have been
>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I’ll write it
>myself. Fuck it.
>(snip)and
>since we’re on DC: I’ve always wondered why nobody’s done an Elseworlds
>DC Universe/Cold War switcharound Superman as the card-carrying
>communist farmboy in love with his tractor and Batman (with his
>sidekick, Renfield) as literally a bloodsucking capatalist from E Europe
>– in an America which had a Red Revolution at the turn of the century,
>at ‘war’ with a still-monarchist Russia. It’d work, dammit, it’d work...
There's a saying to the effect that "ideas are cheap and stories are
dear," but damn -- the Hitler Swamp Thing and the Commie Superman/vampire
Batman pitches sound great! Somebody get Karen Berger on the phone!
--James Dawson
av...@lafn.org
Tom Coates
James Dawson wrote in message <6shnak$o...@zook.lafn.org>...
>Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
>>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
>>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark’s storyline
>>nicely), and there’s this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
>>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
>>short about the most famous A.H. of all – after all, it must have been
>>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
>>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I’ll write it
>>myself. Fuck it.
Hitler Swamp Thing is a fucking GREAT idea for a story - there is so much
scope in that for moral crises - genocide and the green, prestige to ruin
all of that - wonderful idea.
Mute
>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark's storyline
>nicely), and there's this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
>short about the most famous A.H. of all - after all, it must have been
>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I'll write it
>myself. Fuck it.
Go on, do it! That's genius...
..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
Mute.
Mute
>Anyway, while you’re here, Mark: any plans to continue Shadowmen? Who’re
>you going to replace Johnathon Woss with in the new Saviour, Letterman?
>Or what?
Update with the original version of the imitation? Huh..
Oh, no, just the American version, assuming he's setting it in
America. I asked about Jerry Springer a little while ago...I think
he's keeping it under his barnet.
Mute.
Corey Klemow
> Yeah? Well, if you want to pitch my outline Mark, go for it. I’ll e-mail
> it you. It starts at Anton Arcane’s funeral in Berlin (full Catholic
> rites now, right Mark?) Abbie takes John Constantine with her – who
> else? – and they re-start their ‘affair’... etc. etc. The main story is
> told in flashback. Small continuity problem with Caitlin’s last Dreaming
> (good/bad Arcane), but that’s there anyway...
*spoiler for said DREAMING story*
But that wasn't really Arcane, it was just a projection of Matt's
subconscious. Remember?
Besides which, IIRC, Mark Millar's whole "good Arcane" bit of the
storyline took place... what, ten, twenty years into the *future*?
Duncan
>
> Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
> >swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
> >be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark's storyline
> >nicely), and there's this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
> >track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
> >short about the most famous A.H. of all - after all, it must have been
> >pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
> >know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I'll write it
> >myself. Fuck it.
>
> Go on, do it! That's genius...
If you want to collaborate mutey, let me know.
Duncan
Tom Coates wrote:
>
> James Dawson wrote in message <6shnak$o...@zook.lafn.org>...
> >Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
> >>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
> >>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
> >>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark’s storyline
> >>nicely), and there’s this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
> >>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
> >>short about the most famous A.H. of all – after all, it must have been
> >>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
> >>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I’ll write it
> >>myself. Fuck it.
>
Cian O'Connor
>
>
> "Story Minute" also appears in a monthly magazine whose name I can't
> remember ("Comic Relief", perhaps?) that specializes in collecting the
> month's political and "alternative" strips.
She's also collected on www.salonmagazine.com
She's cool.
Cian
WarrenE
> Go on, do it! That's genius...
>
>..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
Fuck continuity.
-- Warren Ellis
Duncan
I'll take that as a yes vote from you too, Warren.
Actually, there is a ST story set around 1945... Arcane is in it too,
and ...Sgt. Rock is it? Which makes it even better...
Samael
WarrenE wrote in message
<199809021019...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>In article <35ecf...@news2.ibm.net>, mute...@hotmail.com (Mute) writes:
>
>> Go on, do it! That's genius...
>>
>>..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
>
>Fuck continuity.
Well, up to point.
(leaps behind flame-proof desk)
Samael
Mark Millar
> >communist farmboy in love with his tractor and Batman (with his
> >sidekick, Renfield) as literally a bloodsucking capatalist from E Europe
> >– in an America which had a Red Revolution at the turn of the century,
> >at ‘war’ with a still-monarchist Russia.
Sorry, lads. I've been doing the Communist Superman:Red Son prestige
series for a while. Dave Johnson's been drawing it for two fucking
years, but it's going to be worth it. Should be out early next year.
The Batman idea is great, tho. As is the Hitler Swampy. That's the best
fucking idea I've heard all week... and I've heard some crackers!
BTW, as regards Saviour, Alex has drawn him in a completely new style
and it looks unbelievably great. I've got some top secret character
sketches and they really are awesome. If I had a scanner, I'd show them
off, but I don't so I can't.
MM
Duncan
>
> > >(snip)and >since we’re on DC: I’ve always wondered why nobody’s done an Elseworlds>DC Universe/Cold War switcharound Superman as the card-carrying
> > >communist farmboy in love with his tractor and Batman (with his
> > >sidekick, Renfield) as literally a bloodsucking capatalist from E Europe
> > >– in an America which had a Red Revolution at the turn of the century,
> > >at ‘war’ with a still-monarchist Russia.
>
> Sorry, lads. I've been doing the Communist Superman:Red Son prestige
> series for a while. Dave Johnson's been drawing it for two fucking
> years, but it's going to be worth it. Should be out early next year.
Tch. Typical. I kind of saw the Green Lantern as an intergalactic
eco-freak as well... oy vey.
> The Batman idea is great, tho. As is the Hitler Swampy. That's the best
> fucking idea I've heard all week... and I've heard some crackers!
>
> BTW, as regards Saviour, Alex has drawn him in a completely new style
> and it looks unbelievably great. I've got some top secret character
> sketches and they really are awesome. If I had a scanner, I'd show them
> off, but I don't so I can't.
>
I still would've liked to see Shadowmen return... >mumble, mumble<
WarrenE
> Go on, do it! That's genius...
>
>..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
Fuck continuity.
-- Warren Ellis
Bradly E. Peterson
Warms the heart, don't it? heh...
Bradly E. Peterson, Psychodrama Press
(Remove OMELETTEDUFROMAGE from address to reply)
<http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/drama>
"Obscene" = 'It turns me on and I don't like it'.
(Samael)
Bradly E. Peterson
>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark's storyline
>nicely), and there's this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
>short about the most famous A.H. of all - after all, it must have been
>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I'll write it
>myself. Fuck it.
No, don't fuck it. Write the goddamn thing! Damn fine idea.
Bradly E. Peterson
>Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
>>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
>>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark’s storyline
>>nicely), and there’s this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
>>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
>>short about the most famous A.H. of all – after all, it must have been
>>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
>>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I’ll write it
>>myself. Fuck it.
>
>>(snip)and
>>since we’re on DC: I’ve always wondered why nobody’s done an Elseworlds
>>DC Universe/Cold War switcharound Superman as the card-carrying
>>communist farmboy in love with his tractor and Batman (with his
>>sidekick, Renfield) as literally a bloodsucking capatalist from E Europe
>>– in an America which had a Red Revolution at the turn of the century,
>>at ‘war’ with a still-monarchist Russia. It’d work, dammit, it’d work...
>
>
>There's a saying to the effect that "ideas are cheap and stories are
>dear," but damn -- the Hitler Swamp Thing and the Commie Superman/vampire
>Batman pitches sound great! Somebody get Karen Berger on the phone!
Yep. Damn fine ideas, both of 'em.
Duncan
>
> Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> done said this here deal:
>
> Come to think of it, I'll write it
> >myself. Fuck it.
>
>
Stuart be interested?
Cheers though, Brad...
Lance Squiddie Smith
>WarrenE wrote:
>>
>> In article <35ecf...@news2.ibm.net>, mute...@hotmail.com (Mute) writes:
>>
>> > Go on, do it! That's genius...
>> >
>> >..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
>>
>> Fuck continuity.
>>
>Fuck continuity... let's dance.
So an appropriate counter is...
If it aint in continuity, it aint worth a fuck?
Lance Smith
squi...@visi.com
Duncan
DCO Moore
>I meant fuck someone else pitching it, I'll do it myself - but >would Stuart
be interested?
Not personally; the current Swamp Thing editor is Joan Hilty. You can
certainly query her on it, though I think she'll want to get the new monthly up
and running before considering any related projects. I agree it's a natural
(if there's a strong enough story, and writing, behind it). Good luck.
--Stuart Moore
Senior Editor, Vertigo/Helix
Henry Spencer
Mark Millar <mark....@virgin.net> wrote:
>> >...Superman as the card-carrying
>> >communist farmboy in love with his tractor...
>
>Sorry, lads. I've been doing the Communist Superman:Red Son prestige
>series for a while. Dave Johnson's been drawing it for two fucking
>years, but it's going to be worth it. Should be out early next year.
Didn't Neil Gaiman once mention that he'd done some work on a concept in
which Superbaby's rocket lands in Siberia instead of Kansas? "Stalin" is
an invented name, which means roughly "man of steel"...
--
Being the last man on the Moon is a | Henry Spencer he...@spsystems.net
very dubious honor. -- Gene Cernan | (aka he...@zoo.toronto.edu)
Duncan
>
> Didn't Neil Gaiman once mention that he'd done some work on a concept in
> which Superbaby's rocket lands in Siberia instead of Kansas? "Stalin" is
> an invented name, which means roughly "man of steel"...
> --
squidly
>That's the obvious beginning - the 1906 Siberian
meteor hit.
And thats the problem....the whole tunguska thing has
been done to death recently.....
Duncan
Yeah. Especially by Veitch in Maximortal. All the same, it's the obvious
thing (make things simple). If he'd landed in 1906, aged, say, 6 months,
he'd have been 32 in 1938 when Action Comics started - bit too old
really. Superman was closer to 22 when he started.
squidly
Duncan wrote in message
<35EE76...@airstream.co.uk>...
Right....that too....of course the X-files have heavy
leanings....
I fear that tunguska may well be the next "Jack the
Ripper" in terms of cliché.
Samael
squidly wrote in message <6slpnt$8su$1...@eros.clara.net>...
>I fear that tunguska may well be the next "Jack the
>Ripper" in terms of cliché.
>
Especially considering the current vogue for big objects smacking into the
planet.
Samael
Duncan
>
> Duncan wrote in message
> <35EE76...@airstream.co.uk>...
> >squidly wrote:
> >>
> >> >That's the obvious beginning - the 1906 Siberian
> >> meteor hit.
> >>
> >> And thats the problem....the whole tunguska thing
> has
> >> been done to death recently.....
> >
> >Yeah. Especially by Veitch in Maximortal. All the
> same, it's the obvious
> >thing (make things simple). If he'd landed in 1906,
> aged, say, 6 months,
> >he'd have been 32 in 1938 when Action Comics started -
> bit too old
> >really. Superman was closer to 22 when he started.
>
> Right....that too....of course the X-files have heavy
> leanings....
X-Files is like Star Trek - good idea turned into purest shit.
> I fear that tunguska may well be the next "Jack the
> Ripper" in terms of cliché.
What else is it in then? I'm not aware of anything else (basis for
current movies aside).
Samael
Duncan wrote in message <35EE7E...@airstream.co.uk>...
>squidly wrote:
>>
>> Duncan wrote in message
>> <35EE76...@airstream.co.uk>...
>> >squidly wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >That's the obvious beginning - the 1906 Siberian
>> >> meteor hit.
>> >>
>> >> And thats the problem....the whole tunguska thing
>> has
>> >> been done to death recently.....
>> >
>> >Yeah. Especially by Veitch in Maximortal. All the
>> same, it's the obvious
>> >thing (make things simple). If he'd landed in 1906,
>> aged, say, 6 months,
>> >he'd have been 32 in 1938 when Action Comics started -
>> bit too old
>> >really. Superman was closer to 22 when he started.
>>
>> Right....that too....of course the X-files have heavy
>> leanings....
>
>X-Files is like Star Trek - good idea turned into purest shit.
Thus speaks someone who has not watched any of the last three seasons of
DS9, or the more recent Voyager.
(Mind you, you'd have to have Sky).
Samael
PJW
>
>
> I fear that tunguska may well be the next "Jack the
> Ripper" in terms of cliché.
Coming next year from Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell:
"From the Oort Cloud"
Duncan
What was your point again?
Samael
Duncan wrote in message <35EE8F...@airstream.co.uk>...
That the ongoing war in DS9 was portrayed brilliantly and the character
development in both DS9 and Voyager was better than in almost anything else
on TV.
Samael
Duncan
>
> Duncan wrote:
> >What was your point again?
>
> That the ongoing war in DS9 was portrayed brilliantly and the character
> development in both DS9 and Voyager was better than in almost anything else
> on TV.
>
"...character development ...better than almost anything else on TV"?
That's ludicrously high praise for a sci-fi series. Better than a Lynda
La Plante series? Or NYPD Blue? (To name a couple of popular serials -
I'm not even mentioning 'serious' plays, movies etc.)
This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
- the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
(This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
nerve).
Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
if they killed off half the characters). DS9 is almost unwatchable
(better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
thing). I've only seen the odd episode of both, so I can't comment on
the plot development over the series as a whole - but if each episode is
a turkey it doesn't bode well.
But then, I probably have ludicrously high hopes of TV sci-fi, so I'm
bound to be disapointed.
Rich Johnston
How about Adam Hughes has a ton of printing ink poured on him....?
Rich Johnston
twis...@hotmail.com
http://www.twistandshoutcomics.com
Just bought a house in Putney. Putny. Bloody hell.
Bradly E. Peterson
>BTW, as regards Saviour, Alex has drawn him in a completely new style
>and it looks unbelievably great. I've got some top secret character
>sketches and they really are awesome. If I had a scanner, I'd show them
>off, but I don't so I can't.
Not if they're "top secret" you wouldn't. heh...
Bradly E. Peterson
>Henry Spencer wrote:
>>
>> Didn't Neil Gaiman once mention that he'd done some work on a concept in
>> which Superbaby's rocket lands in Siberia instead of Kansas? "Stalin" is
>> an invented name, which means roughly "man of steel"...
>> --
>That's the obvious beginning - the 1906 Siberian meteor hit.
Tunguska. Yeah, that'd be an interesting story. Then again,
Rick Veitch did it in "The Maximortal". Great story, too.
Joseph T. Arendt
In a previous article, mark....@virgin.net (Mark Millar) says:
...
>. If I do anything else for Vertigo (and I might) It's
>going to be creator-owned and stuffed with as much swearing as possible.
>
>Yours fucking sincerely, Mark The Bastard Millar
Blech. Not on the "creator-owned," but on the swearing.
The only Vertigo book I've been reading is SMT. It has some swearing,
which is fine, but generally it is in context subserving the story. For
most everything else I have sampled of Vertigo, forget it. Lots of gore
and swearing for not much reason but itself. Vertigo is like a big stamp
to avoid this book to me! :-( It has been a long time since I even glanced
at any Vertigo book. I just buy my Sandman Mystery Theatre and avoid all
the rest.
I once had hopes for Vertigo, but those died long ago. It reminds me of
comedians that learn they can have been given the right to swear on stage
so swear and swear, somehow along the way forgetting to tell funny jokes.
Apply this concept to entertaining stories rather than funny jokes and
you've got Vertigo.
Joseph Arendt
Richard Pace
wouldn't that be rac.dc.vertigo Prime Minister?
Who's got dibs on leader of the opposition?
Richard
Duncan wrote in message <35EEDE...@airstream.co.uk>...
>I say we elect this guy rac.dc.vertigo president.
Duncan
jayembee
"Samael" <sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> David J. Snyder wrote in message <6sgpov$gu8$1...@hiram.io.com>...
>> It's supposed to be concentrating on Tefe.
> Isn't she dead????
> I'm sure Mark Millar killed her off.
Well, there's dead, and there's mostly dead...
--- jayembee (Jerry.B...@eds.com)
"Have fun storming the castle!"
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
jayembee
mute...@hotmail.com (Mute) wrote:
> Go on, do it! That's genius...
> ..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
The Heap? :-)
--- jayembee (Jerry.B...@eds.com)
"Save Ferris!"
jayembee
CKl...@compuserve.com wrote:
>> At San Diego, Stuart Moore mentioned that Swamp Thing
>> is coming back written by someone who's name I don't
>> remember and had never heard of before. It's supposed
>> to be concentrating on Tefe.
> The author's name I've heard mentioned on this newsgroup
> is Carol Lay, who writes the billiant "Story Minute" strip
> which, here in Los Angeles, appears in the L.A. Weekly [...]
Her name is ringing bells in my head. Didn't she write a
comic for one of the majors about 10 years ago? For some
reason, the DC title ANGEL LOVE is popping into my head,
but I don't think that's it...
Mogen Dave
>most everything else I have sampled of Vertigo, forget it. Lots of gore
>and swearing for not much reason but itself.
Read Preacher.
Mogen Dave
>Halfway through the Rick Veitch run he does this bit about how every
>swamp thing has to have the initials A.H. (as in Alec Holland) and must
>be born in fire, air, earth & water (which ties in with Mark's storyline
>nicely), and there's this long storyline where Constantine is trying to
>track down the right person. So I thought someone could do a nice little
>short about the most famous A.H. of all - after all, it must have been
>pretty damp in that Berlin bunker, as the war drew to an end, and we
>know it caught fire down there. Come to think of it, I'll write it
>myself. Fuck it.
When was Anne Heche ever in Berlin? Or did you mean Alan Hale?
Dave
Bradly E. Peterson
Oh, stop with the jokes, Dave.
You KNOW he was talking about Abbie Hoffman!
heh...
Bradly E. Peterson
here deal:
>In a previous article, mark....@virgin.net (Mark Millar) says:
>...
>>. If I do anything else for Vertigo (and I might) It's
>>going to be creator-owned and stuffed with as much swearing as possible.
>>
>>Yours fucking sincerely, Mark The Bastard Millar
>
>Blech. Not on the "creator-owned," but on the swearing.
>
>The only Vertigo book I've been reading is SMT.
uh... You're complaining about Mark swearing but you read SMUT?
Isn't that a bit hippocr...
(Mark taps me on the shoulder and whispers...)
Huh? What are you talking about, Mark? It's... That's what I
said to the... ... OH! Well, that's a whole other thing, then.
never mind.
Bradly E. Peterson
>Since most of the posters and Vertigo creative types are from the UK,
>wouldn't that be rac.dc.vertigo Prime Minister?
The UK is in Northeast Texas. In the panhandle.
Better make it "Sherriff". heh...
Mute
>> > Go on, do it! That's genius...
>> >
>> >..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
>>
>> Fuck continuity.
>>
>Fuck continuity... let's dance.
>I'll take that as a yes vote from you too, Warren.
>Actually, there is a ST story set around 1945... Arcane is in it too,
>and ...Sgt. Rock is it? Which makes it even better...
I meant a non-Holland Swampy, actually. Only thinking of it because I
just bought Muth's book last week, but the Veitch time-travel run was
in the back of my mind. Ellis has a point, though. It's too good a
notion to ignore...
mute
Mute
>> The author's name I've heard mentioned on this newsgroup
>> is Carol Lay, who writes the billiant "Story Minute" strip
>> which, here in Los Angeles, appears in the L.A. Weekly [...]
>Her name is ringing bells in my head. Didn't she write a
>comic for one of the majors about 10 years ago? For some
>reason, the DC title ANGEL LOVE is popping into my head,
>but I don't think that's it...
That was by Barb Slate. I just bought the first issue last
week..anyone think the rest of it's worth looking out for?
mute
Killans - First And Last And Always
>Well...I've recently signed a contract to do a creator owned vertigo
>project so it's time to get started...
>
>ehem...
>
>I feel a little on the spot here, I don't swear much in public...
>
>ehem...
>
>cuntfarts.
>
>Thank you. God bless.
So Ty, are you going to be the first writer to be allowed use the word
"cuntfart" in a Vertigo comic?
I do hope so.
Mike
--
Mike Collins
Duncan
>
> Oh, stop with the jokes, Dave.
> You KNOW he was talking about Abbie Hoffman!
> heh...
>
Cian O'Connor
>
> Samael wrote:
> >
> > Duncan wrote:
>
> > >What was your point again?
> >
> > That the ongoing war in DS9 was portrayed brilliantly and the character
> > development in both DS9 and Voyager was better than in almost anything else
> > on TV.
> >
> "...character development ...better than almost anything else on TV"?
>
> That's ludicrously high praise for a sci-fi series. Better than a Lynda
> La Plante series? Or NYPD Blue? (To name a couple of popular serials -
> I'm not even mentioning 'serious' plays, movies etc.)
Well its not hard to be better than the latest La Plante... The one on
the other night.
> This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
(too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
> (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> nerve).
Its a problem with most things really.
> Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> if they killed off half the characters).
Like the Captain.
> DS9 is almost unwatchable
> (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> thing).
You have to be kidding. Space Precinct? And B5 was v. good for a while
(don't really watch television anymore, so no idea how its panned out).
Cian
Duncan
>
> > Go on, do it! That's genius...
>
> > ..as long as there isn't an in-continuity Swampy already for 1945...
>
>
The Heap is ©Todd MacFarlane Enterprises, soon to run your local cable
station, water company, bus service etc. etc.
Duncan
>
> Duncan wrote:
> >
> > Samael wrote:
> > >
> > > Duncan wrote:
> >
> > > >What was your point again?
> > >
> > > That the ongoing war in DS9 was portrayed brilliantly and the character
> > > development in both DS9 and Voyager was better than in almost anything else
> > > on TV.
> > >
> > "...character development ...better than almost anything else on TV"?
> >
> > That's ludicrously high praise for a sci-fi series. Better than a Lynda
> > La Plante series? Or NYPD Blue? (To name a couple of popular serials -
> > I'm not even mentioning 'serious' plays, movies etc.)
>
> Well its not hard to be better than the latest La Plante... The one on
> the other night.
So I've heard, I missed it. But at her best - the first coup of Prime
Suspects & the one about the soldiers - she's great. Does tend to redo
the same basic plot, mind...
> > This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> > Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
>
> The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
McBeal, if you happen to like it... It doesn't seem to occur to anyone
that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
the future, if they are anywhere now.
I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
> > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > nerve).
>
> Its a problem with most things really.
>
> > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > if they killed off half the characters).
>
> Like the Captain.
>
Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
just push him out the nearest airlock?
> > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > thing).
>
> You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
> And B5 was v. good for a while
Ugh. *Should* have been good - no continuity ties to ST. Space: AAB
*should* have been great, but what a pile of odoure (why do they all
share cabins without fucking?)
> (don't really watch television anymore, so no idea how its panned out).
>
You mean you've got a life? What are you doing on this ng then?
Cian O'Connor
>
> Cian O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > Duncan wrote:
> > >
> > > Samael wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Duncan wrote:
> > >
> > > > >What was your point again?
> > > >
> > > > That the ongoing war in DS9 was portrayed brilliantly and the character
> > > > development in both DS9 and Voyager was better than in almost anything else
> > > > on TV.
> > > >
> > > "...character development ...better than almost anything else on TV"?
> > >
> > > That's ludicrously high praise for a sci-fi series. Better than a Lynda
> > > La Plante series? Or NYPD Blue? (To name a couple of popular serials -
> > > I'm not even mentioning 'serious' plays, movies etc.)
> >
> > Well its not hard to be better than the latest La Plante... The one on
> > the other night.
>
> So I've heard, I missed it. But at her best - the first coup of Prime
> Suspects & the one about the soldiers - she's great. Does tend to redo
> the same basic plot, mind...
Did she do that net thing as well. That was pretty bad... However, this
Saturday they're showing Brimstone & Treacle, which I've never actually
seen. And they're showing M next week, and some other Fritz Lang thing.
In fact I'm going to have to go out and buy a load of videos thinking
about it.
> > > This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> > > Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> > > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
> >
> > The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
>
> Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
> McBeal, if you happen to like it...
Yeah right. Allie McBeal, top programme for women who've now they've got
what they want, don't know what to do with it. Silly bitches.
> It doesn't seem to occur to anyone
> that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
> the future, if they are anywhere now.
In hell they're probably like that. A low budget future soap exploring
the evolution of human relationships could be pretty cool actually. Get
someone like John Shirley, or some other soft SF guy to write it. Could
be pretty neat...
> I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
Prime time TV. Especially in America. Mind you the original had a lot of
that kind of thing. My theory is, that SF is only good when low budget,
'cos then you don't have to mainstream it.
They can cut out all that Federation shit as well. Corporations are no
longer our friends, have these people not heard of downsizing?
> > > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > > nerve).
> >
> > Its a problem with most things really.
> >
> > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > if they killed off half the characters).
> >
> > Like the Captain.
> >
> Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> just push him out the nearest airlock?
That hologram as well. So now they have to have one machine character so
they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
That was one of the more annoying aspects of the original. I mean Spock
was so much cooler than Kirk.
> > > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > > thing).
> >
> > You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
>
> At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
> of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
Sliders has its moments actually... no wait I'm serious... don't go.
> > And B5 was v. good for a while
>
> Ugh. *Should* have been good - no continuity ties to ST. Space: AAB
> *should* have been great, but what a pile of odoure (why do they all
> share cabins without fucking?)
ST. Space? What's that? I liked it. All the politics stuff, and the
whole them against the spider things was quite interesting. Not perfect.
And they had better characters. Okay the English dude had to die. And
the New Age hippy alien freak has to die. And the original captain was
so much fucking cooler than the new dude (Americans can't act noble it
would seem... mind you can anyone. Michael Collins mind...). But
garibraldi was cool. As was that other chick who got crippled. And the
comedy alien who became lord high emperor was pretty good. All that
infighting on his planet, and the way they did his decline into
corruption was excellant, imho. Variable, but a lot better than I
expected. And the corrupt earth was a lovely touch. Very X-files.
> > (don't really watch television anymore, so no idea how its panned out).
> >
> You mean you've got a life? What are you doing on this ng then?
Avoiding work.
Cian
PJW
> Cian O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > Duncan wrote:
> > >
> > > This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> > > Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> > > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
> >
> > The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
>
> Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
> that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
> the future, if they are anywhere now.
I've never watched more than three minutes of Ally McBeal at a time, but
I'm nonetheless of the belief that every single character on that show is
in dire need of a serious beating.
> I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
Think it's the budget. It's cheaper to slap a funny forehead and nose
on an actor drawing scale than it would be to create a convincing non-
humanoid alien.
But I wouldn't be surprised either if TPTB believed that the average
brain-dead television viewer wouldn't be interested in watching
characters that weren't like him or her. That's why you never see any
sci-fi show that doesn't have any "humans" in it.
> > > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > > nerve).
> >
> > Its a problem with most things really.
> >
> > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > if they killed off half the characters).
> >
> > Like the Captain.
Good call.
> Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> just push him out the nearest airlock?
Oh, I'd go for that, too.
The thing about Voyager is, I don't just not watch it, but I actively
avoid it.
> > > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > > thing).
> >
> > You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
>
> At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
> of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
>
> > And B5 was v. good for a while
>
> Ugh. *Should* have been good - no continuity ties to ST. Space: AAB
> *should* have been great, but what a pile of odoure (why do they all
> share cabins without fucking?)
Then you must've enjoyed STARSHIP TROOPERS.
As for B5, it's been sort of downhill since they resolved the "Shadow
War." Not only was it anticlimactic, but it removed all the sense of
mystery.
Never saw Space:AAB. It was on early in the evening (which made it seem
like a kiddie show), and was always getting shuffled around by football
games. It never had a chance.
If you want really, really, horrid science fiction, look no further than
that Battlestar Galactica spin-off... Galactica 1980 or something. I
remember seeing it as a tiny little tot and thought it was downright
horrible. Kinda like to see it again, though. I'm such a masochist.
Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
And there was Blake's 7. Don't think I really understood it. Of course
the public tv station had it on at weird times and I missed a lot of the
shows, so that might have something to do with it. And didn't they
kill off "Blake" pretty early on? Come to think of it, that "seven"
dwindled pretty quickly. The first was the big fellow... Gan? I sorta
liked the snotty guy though -- Avon, was it? (God, I don't think I've
seen this since I was seven.)
Of course that thing on Channel no. 5 sounds interesting, too.
PJW
> In hell they're probably like that. A low budget future soap exploring
> the evolution of human relationships could be pretty cool actually. Get
> someone like John Shirley, or some other soft SF guy to write it. Could
> be pretty neat...
Surprise, surprise! John Shirley has writen an episode of DS9. It was
the one where O'Brien was skipping back and forth into the future.
I sort of like Shirley's writing, but his books are next to impossible
to track down.
Cian O'Connor
>
> Cian O'Connor <cian.o...@remove.me.digitivity.com> writes:
>
> > In hell they're probably like that. A low budget future soap exploring
> > the evolution of human relationships could be pretty cool actually. Get
> > someone like John Shirley, or some other soft SF guy to write it. Could
> > be pretty neat...
>
> Surprise, surprise! John Shirley has writen an episode of DS9. It was
> the one where O'Brien was skipping back and forth into the future.
Any good? My local Blockbuster has a load of DS9 stuff, so I might track
it down. I saw a couple of early DS9 and found it pretty dull (poor
acting, silly soapish stories).
> I sort of like Shirley's writing, but his books are next to impossible
> to track down.
Tell me about it. I've read two, both of which were pretty good. Very
like Simak.
Cian
Duncan
>
> > > > That's ludicrously high praise for a sci-fi series. Better than a Lynda
> > > > La Plante series? Or NYPD Blue? (To name a couple of popular serials -
> > > > I'm not even mentioning 'serious' plays, movies etc.)
> > >
> > > Well its not hard to be better than the latest La Plante... The one on
> > > the other night.
> >
> > So I've heard, I missed it. But at her best - the first coup of Prime
> > Suspects & the one about the soldiers - she's great. Does tend to redo
> > the same basic plot, mind...
>
> Did she do that net thing as well. That was pretty bad...
Christ, yeah. That was terrible...
> However, this
> Saturday they're showing Brimstone & Treacle, which I've never actually
> seen.
Me neither... That's not the Sting thing is it?
> And they're showing M next week, and some other Fritz Lang thing.
> In fact I'm going to have to go out and buy a load of videos thinking
> about it.
I saw Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels the other day - it's absolutely
fucking brilliant. Funny, violent... [Spolier Space] Great Italian Job
ending. [Over] Even Vinnie Jones is good. Go see.
> > > > This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> > > > Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> > > > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > > > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > > > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > > > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > > > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > > > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
> > >
> > > The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> > > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> > > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> > > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
> >
> > Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
> > McBeal, if you happen to like it...
>
> Yeah right. Allie McBeal, top programme for women who've now they've got
> what they want, don't know what to do with it. Silly bitches.
Now, now...
> > It doesn't seem to occur to anyone
> > that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
> > the future, if they are anywhere now.
>
> In hell they're probably like that. A low budget future soap exploring
> the evolution of human relationships could be pretty cool actually. Get
> someone like John Shirley, or some other soft SF guy to write it. Could
> be pretty neat...
If a real intergalactic military force behaved as touchy-feely-weepy as
the Star Trek lot they'd be blown out of space by the first alien they
encountered. I've always preferred the Klingons, except they're too
soft.
> > I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> > stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> > pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> > organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> > represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
>
> Prime time TV. Especially in America. Mind you the original had a lot of
> that kind of thing.
The guys with the bums on their heads... I think the original ST had an
entirely different purpose.
> My theory is, that SF is only good when low budget,
> 'cos then you don't have to mainstream it.
Ye-es. But it has to be tongue-in-cheek if it's low budget. It's like
the Batman TV series v the last movie. The series beats the shit out of
Arnie & co.
> They can cut out all that Federation shit as well. Corporations are no
> longer our friends, have these people not heard of downsizing?
Yeah. They even skirt around that in Aliens: "The Company", huh! Why
don't they name it? Everyone knows it's
MacDonalds-Microsoft-CocaCola-GeneralMotors-IBM.
> > > > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > > > nerve).
> > >
> > > Its a problem with most things really.
> > >
> > > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > > if they killed off half the characters).
> > >
> > > Like the Captain.
> > >
> > Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> > just push him out the nearest airlock?
>
> That hologram as well.
Yes. Unless he starts showing signs of true insanity: "Give me back my
body!!" etc.
> So now they have to have one machine character so
> they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
I hate that. As if anyone needs to have emotions.
> That was one of the more annoying aspects of the original. I mean Spock
> was so much cooler than Kirk.
They should've learnt something from all those stroke postings (ie Spock
fucking Kirk etc.)
Roddenberry was a total maniac, by all accounts. Thick as pigshit & a
control freak. So I've heard.
> > > > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > > > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > > > thing).
> > >
> > > You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
> >
> > At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
> > of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
>
> Sliders has its moments actually... no wait I'm serious... don't go.
Haven't seen it... yes I have. Are you MAD, sir? Isn't that Brian
Blessed in that?
> > > And B5 was v. good for a while
> >
> > Ugh. *Should* have been good - no continuity ties to ST. Space: AAB
> > *should* have been great, but what a pile of odoure (why do they all
> > share cabins without fucking?)
>
> ST. Space? What's that?
No, ST = Star Trek. Space: AAB = Space: Above & Beyond.
> I liked it.
What?
> All the politics stuff, and the
> whole them against the spider things was quite interesting. Not perfect.
> And they had better characters. Okay the English dude had to die. And
> the New Age hippy alien freak has to die. And the original captain was
> so much fucking cooler than the new dude (Americans can't act noble it
> would seem... mind you can anyone. Michael Collins mind...). But
> garibraldi was cool. As was that other chick who got crippled. And the
> comedy alien who became lord high emperor was pretty good. All that
> infighting on his planet, and the way they did his decline into
> corruption was excellant, imho. Variable, but a lot better than I
> expected. And the corrupt earth was a lovely touch. Very X-files.
This is Babylon 5 you're on about, yes? (Jesus...) Well, it could've
been good, I'll give you that, without the need to refer to ST all the
time... but the last series was SO dull. So utterly fucking tedious...
Not that I watched it of course.
> > > (don't really watch television anymore, so no idea how its panned out).
> > >
> > You mean you've got a life? What are you doing on this ng then?
>
> Avoiding work.
>
Good for you.
Killans - First And Last And Always
Cian O'Connor <cian.o...@remove.me.digitivity.com> wrote:
>Duncan wrote:
>>
>> Samael wrote:
>> >
>> > Duncan wrote:
>>
>the other night.
Has she lost it, or what? Yeah, the new one is shit, but it's a
Shakespearean masterpiece compared to that dire thing she did about the
Internet a couple of months ago, which was almost literally unwatchable.
Shit, I swore to myself that I wasn't going to get into another Brit telly
discussion on here.
>> This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
>> Star Trek on a Vertigo NG [...]
>
>The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
>that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
>character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
>(too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
>
>> (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
>> nerve).
[...]
>> Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
>> if they killed off half the characters).
>
>Like the Captain.
Like the writers, more like. Of all the ST series (including the
original), Voyager is the least watchable. Ludicrous, nonsensical stories,
characters that struggle to achieve a single dimension - yuk.
>> DS9 is almost unwatchable
>> (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
>> thing).
Whereas I've always found DS9 to be the best of the lot. Precisely because
it's not just a feelgood, solve-the-problem-in-time-for-group-hug episodic
series. It does have elements of ongoing story and character development,
and it's not afraid to have regular protagonists with deep flaws and the
ability to make wrong choices. Of course, this tends to push it towards a
soap-opera-ish style sometimes, but no more so than, say, Claremont-era
X-Men. It has much less of the written-by-committee "family entertainment"
feel than STTNG and Voyager.
TNG was, for the most part, pretty poor, although it went through phases
of being rather good at times. There were some fairly good moments in
parts of the 4th and 5th series, and most of the 6th series was well worth
watching. It has to be said, though, that for much of the time it was
only Patrick Stewart that made the thing watchable at all. The concept
of "good actors help make good drama" never seems to have really caught on
on US TV. Presumably because all the half-decent (or better) actors jump
on the first Greyhound bus to Hollywood.
>You have to be kidding. Space Precinct? And B5 was v. good for a while
>(don't really watch television anymore, so no idea how its panned out).
B5 has some very good aspects, and some rather poor ones. I'm happy to
overlook its weaknesses, because it's strengths are the sort of things I'd
like to see more of in SF television. It's very ambitious, and although it
often fails to achieve those ambitions, at least it tries, which is more
than most TV (SF or otherwise) does. It's no longer my most
eagerly-anticipated TV programme, but it's one of the few I still make the
effort to tape every week. Or would be if they hadn't stopped it halfway
through the current (and final) series.
Killans - First And Last And Always
Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
>stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
>pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
>organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
>represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
Convention of the genre :-) Keeps the budgets down, keeps the actors
happy, you get better audience identification with the characters (which,
apparantly, is important in America. Here of course, we're not happy
unless we can ridicule and despise the characters in our TV). It also means
you don't have to spend too much time worrying about the implications of
having truly non-human aliens (B5's main attempt at this, showing an "alien
wuarter" in the pilot, fell flat on its face) and can get on with the
important stuff (like, erm, the soap-operas and the group hugs).
Duncan
>
> Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> writes:
> > Cian O'Connor wrote:
> > >
> > > Duncan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > > > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > > > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > > > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > > > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > > > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
> > >
> > > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> > > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> > > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
> >
> > that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
> > the future, if they are anywhere now.
>
> I'm nonetheless of the belief that every single character on that show is
> in dire need of a serious beating.
Now, now... (worse than Cian)
> > I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> > stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> > pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> > organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> > represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
>
> Think it's the budget. It's cheaper to slap a funny forehead and nose
> on an actor drawing scale than it would be to create a convincing non-
> humanoid alien.
I don't buy that. They probably spend more on the actor's coke habits
than on special effects - get some of the animatronics guys in. That
Muppets guy, whatever.
>
> But I wouldn't be surprised either if TPTB believed that the average
> brain-dead television viewer wouldn't be interested in watching
> characters that weren't like him or her. That's why you never see any
> sci-fi show that doesn't have any "humans" in it.
Well if that's true it's just pathetic. It's not just that they look
human, they're just so blatently cheap hollywood actors in make-up. They
might as well be shooting a porn movie.
> > > > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > > > nerve).
> > >
> > > Its a problem with most things really.
> > >
> > > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > > if they killed off half the characters).
> > >
> > > Like the Captain.
>
> Good call.
>
> > Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> > just push him out the nearest airlock?
>
> Oh, I'd go for that, too.
Kill 'em all, I say. Then they'll get home - in a box. Har har har
[cruel laugh while I twirl my moustaches].
> The thing about Voyager is, I don't just not watch it, but I actively
> avoid it.
>
> > > > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > > > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > > > thing).
> > >
> > > You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
> >
> > At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
> > of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
> >
> > > And B5 was v. good for a while
> >
> > Ugh. *Should* have been good - no continuity ties to ST. Space: AAB
> > *should* have been great, but what a pile of odoure (why do they all
> > share cabins without fucking?)
>
> Then you must've enjoyed STARSHIP TROOPERS.
Could be...
> As for B5, it's been sort of downhill since they resolved the "Shadow
> War." Not only was it anticlimactic, but it removed all the sense of
> mystery.
Mystery?
> Never saw Space:AAB. It was on early in the evening (which made it seem
> like a kiddie show), and was always getting shuffled around by football
> games. It never had a chance.
It was shite... with a not-bad premise.
> If you want really, really, horrid science fiction, look no further than
> that Battlestar Galactica spin-off... Galactica 1980 or something. I
> remember seeing it as a tiny little tot and thought it was downright
> horrible. Kinda like to see it again, though. I'm such a masochist.
Ghod. Don't...
> Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
> What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
> a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
That commie guy tried to turn it into a comedy, didn't he? He's such a
turd... I like the one who only lasted like, a day - and then felt his
carer had been ruined. Wanker.
> And there was Blake's 7. Don't think I really understood it.
Yes it did require a lot of concentration, didn't it? A tragedy of
Shakespearian proportions... bit like Neverwhere.
> Of course
> the public tv station had it on at weird times and I missed a lot of the
> shows, so that might have something to do with it. And didn't they
> kill off "Blake" pretty early on?
I think he over-ate himself to death on air.
> Come to think of it, that "seven"
> dwindled pretty quickly. The first was the big fellow... Gan?
The one who had a sex change, right? Called him/herself "Ganna"
> I sorta
> liked the snotty guy though -- Avon, was it? (God, I don't think I've
> seen this since I was seven.)
>
Only British TV would name the chief villain after a popular range of
lady's toiletries. Personally I think they should all have had similar
names: meet the new Blake' Seven: Brut, Hai Karate, Deodrant, Armpit,
Toothpaste and Bog-Roll.
> Of course that thing on Channel no. 5 sounds interesting, too.
No it doesn't. Must stop talking about Brit-only TV. It's too sad.
Killans - First And Last And Always
>longer our friends, have these people not heard of downsizing?
Well, in TNG, a good 50% of the Federation superiors that the cast met were
nutters trying to sieze power and corrupt the Federation from the inside.
You wonder how anyone got any work done at all, really.
If anything, DS9 leans even more heavily on the "there's something a bit
sinister about this Federation thingie really, isn't there?" angle. Mostly
because the DS9 writers are being a bit snide about the TNG writers,
really.
>> > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
>> > > if they killed off half the characters).
>
>That hologram as well. So now they have to have one machine character so
>they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
Yeah. Then again, the hologram doctor is at least funny. God knows,
Voyager needs *something* to hold the interest.
>ST. Space? What's that?
"ST" is "Star Trek", I assume. "Space:AAB" is "Space: Above And Beyond".
Conceived as a realistic, gritty look at war in the future. Executed as
a sitcom about identikit angst-ridden Gen-X-ers flying fighter planes
in space and occasionally shooting something. Battlestar Galactica was
a more realistic look at future war than this, for Christ's sake. Avoid
at all costs.
Cian O'Connor
>
> Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> writes:
> > Cian O'Connor wrote:
> > >
> > > Duncan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> > > > Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> > > > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > > > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > > > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > > > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > > > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > > > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
> > >
> > > The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> > > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> > > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> > > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
> >
> > Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
> > McBeal, if you happen to like it... It doesn't seem to occur to anyone
> > that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
> > the future, if they are anywhere now.
>
> I've never watched more than three minutes of Ally McBeal at a time, but
> I'm nonetheless of the belief that every single character on that show is
> in dire need of a serious beating.
My flat mate really likes it, and sometimes when I'm working late, I get
home to make my dinner and can't avoid it. I'm convinced it was created
by some right wing kook group, determined to prove that women really
don't want equality, because their brains are too small. Mind you the
men aren't much better... And don't get me started on Bridget Jones,
though one of my flate mates is her clone.
>
> > I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> > stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> > pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> > organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> > represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
>
> Think it's the budget. It's cheaper to slap a funny forehead and nose
> on an actor drawing scale than it would be to create a convincing non-
> humanoid alien.
Exactly. Still funny how many humanoid aliens there are, isn't it. Its
not like humanoids are even particularly prevalent on this planet, and
humans only ended up top dog thanks to some wierd genetic quirk.
> But I wouldn't be surprised either if TPTB believed that the average
> brain-dead television viewer wouldn't be interested in watching
> characters that weren't like him or her. That's why you never see any
> sci-fi show that doesn't have any "humans" in it.
> > > > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > > > nerve).
> > >
> > > Its a problem with most things really.
> > >
> > > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > > if they killed off half the characters).
> > >
> > > Like the Captain.
>
> Good call.
Thank you.
> > Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> > just push him out the nearest airlock?
>
> Oh, I'd go for that, too.
>
> The thing about Voyager is, I don't just not watch it, but I actively
> avoid it.
Oh aye. I've been known to watch Hollyoaks instead.
> > > > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > > > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > > > thing).
> > >
> > > You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
> >
> > At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
> > of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
> >
> > > And B5 was v. good for a while
> >
> > Ugh. *Should* have been good - no continuity ties to ST. Space: AAB
> > *should* have been great, but what a pile of odoure (why do they all
> > share cabins without fucking?)
>
> Then you must've enjoyed STARSHIP TROOPERS.
Funnily enough I quite liked that. I'm not sure why, seeing it was
pretty bad, and the man character (in fact all the main characters) were
annoying, poorly written and badly acted. In fact I only saw it because
little bro told me that it was a good satire, and everyone had got it
wrong. Soon little bro and me are going to have a little talk...
> As for B5, it's been sort of downhill since they resolved the "Shadow
> War." Not only was it anticlimactic, but it removed all the sense of
> mystery.
I suspected that might happen.
> Never saw Space:AAB. It was on early in the evening (which made it seem
> like a kiddie show), and was always getting shuffled around by football
> games. It never had a chance.
I quite liked the sound of that program where earth was at war. Was that
Space wotsit, only (in Britain at least) it was on about 12.00am on a
Saturday, so I was never in, and couldn't be arsed to record it.
> If you want really, really, horrid science fiction, look no further than
> that Battlestar Galactica spin-off... Galactica 1980 or something. I
> remember seeing it as a tiny little tot and thought it was downright
> horrible. Kinda like to see it again, though. I'm such a masochist.
Saw that recently on BBC2. Words fail me. Sliders was quite fun
though...
> Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
> What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
> a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
And of course there was Romana. Sigh.
> And there was Blake's 7. Don't think I really understood it. Of course
> the public tv station had it on at weird times and I missed a lot of the
> shows, so that might have something to do with it. And didn't they
> kill off "Blake" pretty early on? Come to think of it, that "seven"
> dwindled pretty quickly. The first was the big fellow... Gan? I sorta
> liked the snotty guy though -- Avon, was it? (God, I don't think I've
> seen this since I was seven.)
Avon got better and better. The only character out of the lot of them
who was delineated well. Combination of good acting and writing 'spose,
which must have been a first for Terry Nation... Had some real babes in
it as well, though all the babes were baddies for some reason. Dunno
why.
Cian
Killans - First And Last And Always
PJW <gre...@southwind.net> wrote:
>Never saw Space:AAB. It was on early in the evening (which made it seem
>like a kiddie show), and was always getting shuffled around by football
>games. It never had a chance.
Round here, it was on at pub closing time. Even with a few pints inside you,
it was still dire.
>Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
>What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
>a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
Allegedly, BBC wanted to kill it off, so they made it worse and worse to
try and kill the audience figures. It just took longer than they expected.
I'm told it got a bit better again towards the end.
Frankly, though, even the so-called "classic" stuff seems pretty poor when I
see any these days. To be watched with tongue firmly in cheek.
>And there was Blake's 7. Don't think I really understood it. Of course
>the public tv station had it on at weird times and I missed a lot of the
>shows, so that might have something to do with it. And didn't they
>kill off "Blake" pretty early on? Come to think of it, that "seven"
>dwindled pretty quickly. The first was the big fellow... Gan? I sorta
>liked the snotty guy though -- Avon, was it? (God, I don't think I've
>seen this since I was seven.)
Blake's 7 was, and is, superb fun. Again, there's a certain tongue-in-cheek
aspect to it - middle-aged Shakespearean actors hamming it up in skin-tight
costumes gives it an unavoidable element of camp. But the writers and
the actors took it seriously enough to make it a good romp. It harks back
to a time when TV writers were much less cynical about popular drama than
they are today.
Cian O'Connor
>
> Cian O'Connor wrote:
> >
>
> > > > > That's ludicrously high praise for a sci-fi series. Better than a Lynda
> > > > > La Plante series? Or NYPD Blue? (To name a couple of popular serials -
> > > > > I'm not even mentioning 'serious' plays, movies etc.)
> > > >
> > > > Well its not hard to be better than the latest La Plante... The one on
> > > > the other night.
> > >
> > > So I've heard, I missed it. But at her best - the first coup of Prime
> > > Suspects & the one about the soldiers - she's great. Does tend to redo
> > > the same basic plot, mind...
> >
> > Did she do that net thing as well. That was pretty bad...
>
> Christ, yeah. That was terrible...
>
> > However, this
> > Saturday they're showing Brimstone & Treacle, which I've never actually
> > seen.
>
> Me neither... That's not the Sting thing is it?
Yeah. Apparently he plays a John Constantinish character, which brings
us vaguely back on topic. But worth setting the record button for,
anyway. Unless you have some urgent need to watch Waterworld on the
other side...
> > And they're showing M next week, and some other Fritz Lang thing.
> > In fact I'm going to have to go out and buy a load of videos thinking
> > about it.
>
> I saw Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels the other day - it's absolutely
> fucking brilliant. Funny, violent... [Spolier Space] Great Italian Job
> ending. [Over] Even Vinnie Jones is good. Go see.
You're the only person I've come across who likes it. All the reviews
have been fairly negative (well Sliding doorsish anyway). But if I get a
chance I might.
> > > > > This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> > > > > Star Trek on a Vertigo NG - but imo, the central problem with all the
> > > > > spin-offs is that they took the very worst aspect of the original series
> > > > > - the soap opera - and expanded it. Now, all the ST series (plus Space:
> > > > > AAB; B5 etc. etc.) are simply galactic soaps, with the odd good sci-fi
> > > > > idea thrown in. This represents a complete loss of nerve on the
> > > > > creator's part - they don't even attempt to keep up with trends in
> > > > > sci-fi lit., Borg apart. (NG is still the best spin off, imo).
> > > >
> > > > The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> > > > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> > > > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> > > > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
> > >
> > > Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
> > > McBeal, if you happen to like it...
> >
> > Yeah right. Allie McBeal, top programme for women who've now they've got
> > what they want, don't know what to do with it. Silly bitches.
>
> Now, now...
No truely, I tell you the thing has been written by the far right. Some
kind of wierd religious organisation which wants to see all women stuck
at home, on valium polishing the silver. I mean Ally has everything, and
is she happy, no. Wait for the final series where for the love of a good
man she gives it all up, and applies brown lipstick, while watching
Oprah Winfrey.
> > > It doesn't seem to occur to anyone
> > > that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
> > > the future, if they are anywhere now.
> >
> > In hell they're probably like that. A low budget future soap exploring
> > the evolution of human relationships could be pretty cool actually. Get
> > someone like John Shirley, or some other soft SF guy to write it. Could
> > be pretty neat...
>
> If a real intergalactic military force behaved as touchy-feely-weepy as
> the Star Trek lot they'd be blown out of space by the first alien they
> encountered. I've always preferred the Klingons, except they're too
> soft.
They were cool in the first series. I really liked the episodes set in
their empire. But in the NG stuff (and post that), they've been bleeding
awful. As for the guy on Picard's ship with all that honour stuff. Give
me a fucking break.
> > > I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> > > stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> > > pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> > > organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> > > represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
> >
> > Prime time TV. Especially in America. Mind you the original had a lot of
> > that kind of thing.
>
> The guys with the bums on their heads... I think the original ST had an
> entirely different purpose.
No, wierd aliens. Crystal aliens, Tribbles and that kind of thing. Much
better.
> > My theory is, that SF is only good when low budget,
> > 'cos then you don't have to mainstream it.
>
> Ye-es. But it has to be tongue-in-cheek if it's low budget. It's like
> the Batman TV series v the last movie. The series beats the shit out of
> Arnie & co.
Well the original Star Trek can't have had that high a budget, and Dr
Who was exactly high concept. Then there's the Twilight Zone. It doesn't
have to be big space ships.
> > They can cut out all that Federation shit as well. Corporations are no
> > longer our friends, have these people not heard of downsizing?
>
> Yeah. They even skirt around that in Aliens: "The Company", huh! Why
> don't they name it? Everyone knows it's
> MacDonalds-Microsoft-CocaCola-GeneralMotors-IBM.
>
> > > > > (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> > > > > nerve).
> > > >
> > > > Its a problem with most things really.
> > > >
> > > > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > > > if they killed off half the characters).
> > > >
> > > > Like the Captain.
> > > >
> > > Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> > > just push him out the nearest airlock?
> >
> > That hologram as well.
>
> Yes. Unless he starts showing signs of true insanity: "Give me back my
> body!!" etc.
That would be cool. How they can expect us to take holograms seriously
after Red Dwarf I don't know (Actually that got bad pretty rapidly).
> > So now they have to have one machine character so
> > they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
>
> I hate that. As if anyone needs to have emotions.
Yeah, its like wildlife stories you get given as a child, where the wild
animals are basically humans with fur on them. The aliens in Star Trek
are so anthropmorphised, its untrue. Their alien nature is the fact that
they're not American.
> > That was one of the more annoying aspects of the original. I mean Spock
> > was so much cooler than Kirk.
>
> They should've learnt something from all those stroke postings (ie Spock
> fucking Kirk etc.)
>
> Roddenberry was a total maniac, by all accounts. Thick as pigshit & a
> control freak. So I've heard.
Have you ever seen any of his other creations. I saw one of his films
the other night. Post-apocolyptic thing. More unwatchable than the Net
by Lynda La Plante.
> > > > > DS9 is almost unwatchable
> > > > > (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> > > > > thing).
> > > >
> > > > You have to be kidding. Space Precinct?
> > >
> > > At least it's more realistic. Not that I'd actually watch it in favour
> > > of, say, the pee-up-a-wall contest on Channel no. 5.
> >
> > Sliders has its moments actually... no wait I'm serious... don't go.
>
> Haven't seen it... yes I have. Are you MAD, sir? Isn't that Brian
> Blessed in that?
Oh aye, has some nice ideas occasionally. Its on at 6 mind, so I'm
comparing it to Voyager and Hollyoaks.
> > All the politics stuff, and the
> > whole them against the spider things was quite interesting. Not perfect.
> > And they had better characters. Okay the English dude had to die. And
> > the New Age hippy alien freak has to die. And the original captain was
> > so much fucking cooler than the new dude (Americans can't act noble it
> > would seem... mind you can anyone. Michael Collins mind...). But
> > garibraldi was cool. As was that other chick who got crippled. And the
> > comedy alien who became lord high emperor was pretty good. All that
> > infighting on his planet, and the way they did his decline into
> > corruption was excellant, imho. Variable, but a lot better than I
> > expected. And the corrupt earth was a lovely touch. Very X-files.
>
> This is Babylon 5 you're on about, yes? (Jesus...) Well, it could've
> been good, I'll give you that, without the need to refer to ST all the
> time... but the last series was SO dull. So utterly fucking tedious...
Didn't see it. Had a feeling it would be.
> Not that I watched it of course.
Of course. So how's that life :)
Cian
Cian O'Connor
>
> In article <35EFB200...@remove.me.digitivity.com>,
> >>
> >> Samael wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Duncan wrote:
> >>
> >the other night.
>
> Shakespearean masterpiece compared to that dire thing she did about the
> Internet a couple of months ago, which was almost literally unwatchable.
The dialogue in her new one is awful. Its the sort of thing people write
at the beginning, not at the height of a successful career.
> Shit, I swore to myself that I wasn't going to get into another Brit telly
> discussion on here.
>
> >> This is probably not the greatest idea - to get stuck in to a debate on
> >> Star Trek on a Vertigo NG [...]
> >
> >The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
> >that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
> >character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
> >(too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
> >
> >> (This is similar to the problem with many comics, too - failure of
> >> nerve).
>
> [...]
>
> >> Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> >> if they killed off half the characters).
> >
> >Like the Captain.
>
> Like the writers, more like. Of all the ST series (including the
> original), Voyager is the least watchable. Ludicrous, nonsensical stories,
> characters that struggle to achieve a single dimension - yuk.
> >> DS9 is almost unwatchable
> >> (better than B5, not as good as Space Precinct, the Gerry Anderson
> >> thing).
>
> Whereas I've always found DS9 to be the best of the lot. Precisely because
> it's not just a feelgood, solve-the-problem-in-time-for-group-hug episodic
> series. It does have elements of ongoing story and character development,
> and it's not afraid to have regular protagonists with deep flaws and the
> ability to make wrong choices. Of course, this tends to push it towards a
> soap-opera-ish style sometimes, but no more so than, say, Claremont-era
> X-Men. It has much less of the written-by-committee "family entertainment"
> feel than STTNG and Voyager.
Just never got into it I guess.
> TNG was, for the most part, pretty poor, although it went through phases
> of being rather good at times. There were some fairly good moments in
> parts of the 4th and 5th series, and most of the 6th series was well worth
> watching. It has to be said, though, that for much of the time it was
> only Patrick Stewart that made the thing watchable at all. The concept
> of "good actors help make good drama" never seems to have really caught on
> on US TV. Presumably because all the half-decent (or better) actors jump
> on the first Greyhound bus to Hollywood.
Absolutely. I mean that guy with the beard? Whorf? The councellor? The
irritating genius kid? Data was just about watchable, and that was it.
But even Patrick Steward struggled on occassion.
And the idea of having families on board was a terrible one. As if I
want to watch Crossroads in space.
> >You have to be kidding. Space Precinct? And B5 was v. good for a while
> >(don't really watch television anymore, so no idea how its panned out).
>
> B5 has some very good aspects, and some rather poor ones. I'm happy to
> overlook its weaknesses, because it's strengths are the sort of things I'd
> like to see more of in SF television. It's very ambitious, and although it
> often fails to achieve those ambitions, at least it tries, which is more
> than most TV (SF or otherwise) does. It's no longer my most
> eagerly-anticipated TV programme, but it's one of the few I still make the
> effort to tape every week. Or would be if they hadn't stopped it halfway
> through the current (and final) series.
Yeah, that's pretty much (or was when I bothered to watch TV) my
attitude.
Cian
Cian O'Connor
>
> >longer our friends, have these people not heard of downsizing?
>
> nutters trying to sieze power and corrupt the Federation from the inside.
> You wonder how anyone got any work done at all, really.
Sounds like any large organisation to me, la. MoD was a bit like that.
S'all that in house politicking, and bitching and stuff. Its about
promotion, and its about time I worked for a smaller company so I don't
feel such a hypocrite :)
> If anything, DS9 leans even more heavily on the "there's something a bit
> sinister about this Federation thingie really, isn't there?" angle. Mostly
> because the DS9 writers are being a bit snide about the TNG writers,
> really.
Yeah. Maybe I shall watch it. When I get cable again...
> >> > > Having said that, I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> >> > > if they killed off half the characters).
> >
> >That hologram as well. So now they have to have one machine character so
> >they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
>
> Yeah. Then again, the hologram doctor is at least funny. God knows,
> Voyager needs *something* to hold the interest.
That's humour? A friend of mine fancies the captain, though. This
worries me, as recently he's started going out with a girl who's my
type, while I've started going out with a girl who's his type. Which
means...
> >ST. Space? What's that?
>
> "ST" is "Star Trek", I assume. "Space:AAB" is "Space: Above And Beyond".
> Conceived as a realistic, gritty look at war in the future. Executed as
> a sitcom about identikit angst-ridden Gen-X-ers flying fighter planes
> in space and occasionally shooting something. Battlestar Galactica was
> a more realistic look at future war than this, for Christ's sake. Avoid
> at all costs.
Okay. It looked quite fun in the RT. Oh well.
Cian
Cian O'Connor
>
> PJW <gre...@southwind.net> wrote:
> >Never saw Space:AAB. It was on early in the evening (which made it seem
> >like a kiddie show), and was always getting shuffled around by football
> >games. It never had a chance.
>
> Round here, it was on at pub closing time. Even with a few pints inside you,
> it was still dire.
>
> >Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
> >What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
> >a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
>
> Allegedly, BBC wanted to kill it off, so they made it worse and worse to
> try and kill the audience figures. It just took longer than they expected.
> I'm told it got a bit better again towards the end.
Is this true? I have to admit its the only explaination I've ever been
able to come up with for how shockingly bad it became. 'Ace' what was
she all about eh? Though perhaps Dr Who was always that bad, and we just
got older and more cynical. Worth a thought...
> Frankly, though, even the so-called "classic" stuff seems pretty poor when I
> see any these days. To be watched with tongue firmly in cheek.
The Tom Baker stuff if actually pretty fun. Especially the episodes with
Romana. They're good, charismatic actors, and the episodes were tongue
in cheek, but were still fun. Some of the earlier stuff though... It was
always best when it was funny really. The serious stuff doesn't work
when you're up to your armpits in gravel.
> >And there was Blake's 7. Don't think I really understood it. Of course
> >the public tv station had it on at weird times and I missed a lot of the
> >shows, so that might have something to do with it. And didn't they
> >kill off "Blake" pretty early on? Come to think of it, that "seven"
> >dwindled pretty quickly. The first was the big fellow... Gan? I sorta
> >liked the snotty guy though -- Avon, was it? (God, I don't think I've
> >seen this since I was seven.)
>
> Blake's 7 was, and is, superb fun. Again, there's a certain tongue-in-cheek
> aspect to it - middle-aged Shakespearean actors hamming it up in skin-tight
> costumes gives it an unavoidable element of camp. But the writers and
> the actors took it seriously enough to make it a good romp. It harks back
> to a time when TV writers were much less cynical about popular drama than
> they are today.
And some of the actresses on the baddy side were total babes. And I
liked Avon. Of course Duncan hates it, but then he hates anything which
doesn't involve sodomy and gangsters with poor sarf london accents, so
ignore him.
Cian
Duncan
>
> >stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> >pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> >organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> >represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
>
Yeah, yeah. But surely someone, somewhere, involved in these progs wants
to take a break from churning out the same old poop.
> Keeps the budgets down,
You mean it's cheaper to pay an actor in a rubber mask than a 15-year
old kid waving some tentacles around? Or an animatronics studio? (Maybe,
the last one.)
> keeps the actors happy,
Yeah, right. Like half of them deserve to be called "actors" in the
first place. If they want to keep the actors happy all they need is a
rubber bone. What they really want is...
> you get better audience identification with the characters
...exactly. Which is why the audience should be sacked forthwith.
> (which, apparantly, is important in America.
Supposedly. The largest amount of any audience is the same the world
over, imo. It's pressure groups that cause the trouble. In the immortal
words of Homer Simpson:
"There are some cry-babies out there, religious types mostly, who might
be offended..."
> Here of course, we're not happy
> unless we can ridicule and despise the characters in our TV).
Now that's not true... You don't see me doing that, do you?
> It also means
> you don't have to spend too much time worrying about the implications of
> having truly non-human aliens
But the implications of humanoid aliens are far greater - it's so much
more unlikely. Listen, I've SEEN an alien... hang on, didn't want to get
into that...
> (B5's main attempt at this, showing an "alien
> wuarter" in the pilot, fell flat on its face) and can get on with the
> important stuff (like, erm, the soap-operas and the group hugs).
What's a "wuarter"?
jayembee
mute...@hotmail.com (Mute) wrote:
> Jerry.B...@eds.com (jayembee) wrote:
[Carol Lay]
>> Her name is ringing bells in my head. Didn't she write a
>> comic for one of the majors about 10 years ago? For some
>> reason, the DC title ANGEL LOVE is popping into my head,
>> but I don't think that's it...
> That was by Barb Slate. I just bought the first issue last
> week..anyone think the rest of it's worth looking out for?
Yeah, I was pretty sure that wasn't it, but the title kept
popping up as I'd said. Maybe it wasn't one of the majors.
Renegade perhaps?
Anyway, I rather liked the ANGEL LOVE series, though it wasn't
anything groundbreaking. In addition to the 8?-issue series,
there was a one-shot SPECIAL, incidentally.
--- jayembee (Jerry.B...@eds.com)
"Save Ferris!"
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
jayembee
<F1BF9DA9DAE4C533.BBF0B446...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, dramaOMELET...@fastlane.net (Bradly E. Peterson) wrote:
>> When was Anne Heche ever in Berlin? Or did you mean Alan Hale?
> Oh, stop with the jokes, Dave. You KNOW he was talking about
> Abbie Hoffman!
Really? Well, shut my mouth wide open. I figured he was referring
to Alfred Hitchcock.
Henry Spencer
Duncan <dun...@airstream.co.uk> wrote:
>I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
>stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
>pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
>organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
>represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
Actually, what it represents is limited budgets. Doing a half-decent job
on any alien who can't be played by a human in a reasonably manageable
costume drives costs way up.
--
Being the last man on the Moon is a | Henry Spencer he...@spsystems.net
very dubious honor. -- Gene Cernan | (aka he...@zoo.toronto.edu)
Duncan
>
> Duncan wrote:
> >
> > > Saturday they're showing Brimstone & Treacle, which I've never actually
> > > seen.
> >
> > Me neither... That's not the Sting thing is it?
>
> Yeah. Apparently he plays a John Constantinish character, which brings
> us vaguely back on topic. But worth setting the record button for,
> anyway. Unless you have some urgent need to watch Waterworld on the
> other side...
Only if I need to pee...
> > > And they're showing M next week, and some other Fritz Lang thing.
> > > In fact I'm going to have to go out and buy a load of videos thinking
> > > about it.
> >
> > I saw Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels the other day - it's absolutely
> > fucking brilliant. Funny, violent... [Spolier Space] Great Italian Job
> > ending. [Over] Even Vinnie Jones is good. Go see.
>
> You're the only person I've come across who likes it.
(Jesus. If there was one person who'd say that, it had to be you!)
Really? OK. I always wonder about this... I mean, you either think
something's funny or you don't; but the most obvious thing about the
movie is all the stuff it steals from other Brit films (Ladykillers,
Lavender Hill Mob, Villain, Italian Job, Get Carter!, Long Good Friday,
Trainspotting are the obvious ones), which it does tongue-in-cheek. I
figure if you don't get the references you won't like it... if you do,
you will.
The only film I've seen recently that's better is LA Confidential. It's
a hell of a lot better than Trainspotting (imo).
> All the reviews
> have been fairly negative
The Guardian review was ecstatic. The Independent one was OK. Not that I
read them.
> (well Sliding doorsish anyway). Can't remember what they said about that... (I never saw it).
> But if I get a chance I might.
Do so. I'd be interested in what you thought. (Bet you'll tell me you
hated it.) I'm not kidding: I don't usually get enthusiastic about...
well, anything, really. But this is excellent...
>
> > > Yeah right. Allie McBeal, top programme for women who've now they've got
> > > what they want, don't know what to do with it. Silly bitches.
> >
> > Now, now...
>
> No truely, I tell you the thing has been written by the far right. Some
> kind of wierd religious organisation which wants to see all women stuck
> at home, on valium polishing the silver. I mean Ally has everything, and
> is she happy, no. Wait for the final series where for the love of a good
> man she gives it all up, and applies brown lipstick, while watching
> Oprah Winfrey.
I see what you mean. Yes, of course. Like that stupid "diary" that was a
huge hit. What can I say? It's the CCC again...
> > I've always preferred the Klingons, except they're too
> > soft.
>
> They were cool in the first series. I really liked the episodes set in
> their empire. But in the NG stuff (and post that), they've been bleeding
> awful. As for the guy on Picard's ship with all that honour stuff. Give
> me a fucking break.
He should run amok.
> > > > I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> > > > stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> > > > pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> > > > organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> > > > represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
> > >
> > > Prime time TV. Especially in America. Mind you the original had a lot of
> > > that kind of thing.
> >
> > The guys with the bums on their heads... I think the original ST had an
> > entirely different purpose.
>
> No, wierd aliens. Crystal aliens, Tribbles and that kind of thing. Much
> better.
Yeah, yeah, the bum-heads were in it too... they could mind-meld & lived
in a cage.
> > > My theory is, that SF is only good when low budget,
> > > 'cos then you don't have to mainstream it.
> >
> > Ye-es. But it has to be tongue-in-cheek if it's low budget. It's like
> > the Batman TV series v the last movie. The series beats the shit out of
> > Arnie & co.
>
> Well the original Star Trek can't have had that high a budget,
It had a purpose. That's the other condition. I was going to write it
all down, but couldn't be arsed... There's one of two conditions they
have to fulfil: either ironic or ...purposeful.
> and Dr
> Who was exactly high concept.
Look, don't confuse the issue with your high-falutin' ideas...
> Then there's the Twilight Zone. It doesn't
> have to be big space ships.
Ah yes, but TZ IS high concept. See, there's these three conditions...
> > > > > > I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > > > > if they killed off half the characters).
> > > > >
> > > > > Like the Captain.
> > > > >
> > > > Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> > > > just push him out the nearest airlock?
> > >
> > > That hologram as well.
> >
> > Yes. Unless he starts showing signs of true insanity: "Give me back my
> > body!!" etc.
>
> That would be cool. How they can expect us to take holograms seriously
> after Red Dwarf I don't know (Actually that got bad pretty rapidly).
That would be... ironic. With a bit of high concept.
> > > So now they have to have one machine character so
> > > they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
> >
> > I hate that. As if anyone needs to have emotions.
>
> Yeah, its like wildlife stories you get given as a child, where the wild
> animals are basically humans with fur on them.
Anthropomorphism. It's coming back. A whole channel on Sky. Yik.
> The aliens in Star Trek are so anthropmorphised,
It's that word again...
> its untrue. Their alien nature is the fact that they're not American.
Yeah... (nice line)
> > > That was one of the more annoying aspects of the original. I mean Spock
> > > was so much cooler than Kirk.
> >
> > They should've learnt something from all those stroke postings (ie Spock
> > fucking Kirk etc.)
> >
> > Roddenberry was a total maniac, by all accounts. Thick as pigshit & a
> > control freak. So I've heard.
>
> Have you ever seen any of his other creations.
Dunno. Name one...
> I saw one of his films
> the other night.
What?
> Post-apocolyptic thing. More unwatchable than the Net by Lynda La Plante.
A videotape loop of two fat men endlessly trying to put on the same pair
of swimming trunks is more watchable.
> > > Sliders has its moments actually... no wait I'm serious... don't go.
> >
> > Haven't seen it... yes I have. Are you MAD, sir? Isn't that Brian
> > Blessed in that?
>
> Oh aye, has some nice ideas occasionally. Its on at 6 mind, so I'm
> comparing it to Voyager and Hollyoaks.
>
Good X-over potential there...
>
> > Not that I watched it of course.
>
> Of course. So how's that life :)
>
Which life would that be, sir?
Samael
Cian O'Connor wrote in message
<35EFE503...@remove.me.digitivity.com>...
>> > the evolution of human relationships could be pretty cool actually. Get
>> > someone like John Shirley, or some other soft SF guy to write it. Could
>> > be pretty neat...
>>
>> the one where O'Brien was skipping back and forth into the future.
>
>Any good? My local Blockbuster has a load of DS9 stuff, so I might track
>it down. I saw a couple of early DS9 and found it pretty dull (poor
>acting, silly soapish stories).
It gets a _lot_ better about the 34d/4th season. The Cardassian/Klingon War
and onwards, pretty much.
Samael
Kevin J. Maroney
>The author's name I've heard mentioned on this newsgroup is Carol Lay,
Holy fucking hell. That would be *great*.
(You can find Carol Lay's Story Minute on the web in Salon Magazine's
comics section,
<http://www.salonmagazine.com/comics/>)
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | kmar...@crossover.com
"I'll be right here if you need me."--Flex Mentallo
Cian O'Connor
>
> Cian O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > Duncan wrote:
> > >
> > > > However, this
> > > > Saturday they're showing Brimstone & Treacle, which I've never actually
> > > > seen.
> > >
> > > Me neither... That's not the Sting thing is it?
> >
> > Yeah. Apparently he plays a John Constantinish character, which brings
> > us vaguely back on topic. But worth setting the record button for,
> > anyway. Unless you have some urgent need to watch Waterworld on the
> > other side...
>
> Only if I need to pee...
Was that as bad as everyone said? I never get round to watching these
things, 'cos they always show them at the bloody multiplexes, and I hate
them. Also you can't go on your own, on a bit of a whim after work like,
'cos you look like you have no friends.
>
> > > > And they're showing M next week, and some other Fritz Lang thing.
> > > > In fact I'm going to have to go out and buy a load of videos thinking
> > > > about it.
> > >
> > > I saw Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels the other day - it's absolutely
> > > fucking brilliant. Funny, violent... [Spolier Space] Great Italian Job
> > > ending. [Over] Even Vinnie Jones is good. Go see.
> >
> > You're the only person I've come across who likes it.
>
> (Jesus. If there was one person who'd say that, it had to be you!)
Duncan, I'm really, really out of touch. I gave up buying newspapers
some time ago and I don't know anyone who has seen a film that wasn't
arthouse for quite a long time (save the Avengers, which I quite liked.
Could have been a lot better, but a damn site better than that bloody
asteroid thing, or all those other bloody big budget travesties we've
been exposed to. Not that I watch them, obviously). You're the only
person I know who's seen it. Chill.
> Really? OK. I always wonder about this... I mean, you either think
> something's funny or you don't; but the most obvious thing about the
> movie is all the stuff it steals from other Brit films (Ladykillers,
> Lavender Hill Mob, Villain, Italian Job, Get Carter!, Long Good Friday,
> Trainspotting are the obvious ones), which it does tongue-in-cheek. I
> figure if you don't get the references you won't like it... if you do,
> you will.
You're probably right. I will get the references, unless they're to some
obscure South American film that was made on Super-8 or something. I
know films on the whole.
> The only film I've seen recently that's better is LA Confidential.
That good then (it was only showing in the multiplex...). On video yet?
> It's a hell of a lot better than Trainspotting (imo).
Yeah, but that was shit. The book was excellent, but the film missed the
point. Don't get me started mind...
> > All the reviews
> > have been fairly negative
>
> The Guardian review was ecstatic. The Independent one was OK. Not that I
> read them.
Yeah? The Guardian guy is pretty reliable. Derek wotsit. Like him, I do.
The Sight and Sound one was a bit wishy washy I think. But the reason I
say it, is that I've read a few articles recently about how this years
films are not as good as last years, and that film is mentioned a lot.
Which means nothing, as most people thought Trainspotting was good.
Morons, like.
> > (well Sliding doorsish anyway). Can't remember what they said about that... (I never saw it).
>
> > But if I get a chance I might.
>
> Do so. I'd be interested in what you thought. (Bet you'll tell me you
> hated it.) I'm not kidding: I don't usually get enthusiastic about...
> well, anything, really. But this is excellent...
Did you like Gary Oldman's film, btw (directorial debut). 'cos i thought
it was superb.
> >
> > > > Yeah right. Allie McBeal, top programme for women who've now they've got
> > > > what they want, don't know what to do with it. Silly bitches.
> > >
> > > Now, now...
> >
> > No truely, I tell you the thing has been written by the far right. Some
> > kind of wierd religious organisation which wants to see all women stuck
> > at home, on valium polishing the silver. I mean Ally has everything, and
> > is she happy, no. Wait for the final series where for the love of a good
> > man she gives it all up, and applies brown lipstick, while watching
> > Oprah Winfrey.
>
> I see what you mean. Yes, of course. Like that stupid "diary" that was a
> huge hit. What can I say? It's the CCC again...
CCC? This isn't another anti-CofE rant is it?
> > > I've always preferred the Klingons, except they're too
> > > soft.
> >
> > They were cool in the first series. I really liked the episodes set in
> > their empire. But in the NG stuff (and post that), they've been bleeding
> > awful. As for the guy on Picard's ship with all that honour stuff. Give
> > me a fucking break.
>
> He should run amok.
He should break heads. Starting with that horrible New Age advisor (I
hate her. And she has this mother who's like that New Age octogenerian
actress), then moving onto the doctor (Bevely is it. Typical). Picard
can stay though. Riker dies. But then there's a newsgroup about that, so
that goes without saying I guess.
> > > > > I've got a problem with the aliens too. Why are they always humans with
> > > > > stupid masks? Why no hideous, malformed tentacled things; or tiny
> > > > > pouched rodents with giant brains; or 10-foot tall homunculi with sex
> > > > > organs on their face; or sentient digestive tracts? I'm serious. This
> > > > > represents a total lack of courage on the programme-makers' part...
> > > >
> > > > Prime time TV. Especially in America. Mind you the original had a lot of
> > > > that kind of thing.
> > >
> > > The guys with the bums on their heads... I think the original ST had an
> > > entirely different purpose.
> >
> > No, wierd aliens. Crystal aliens, Tribbles and that kind of thing. Much
> > better.
>
> Yeah, yeah, the bum-heads were in it too... they could mind-meld & lived
> in a cage.
This alien-rectum obsession you have is really quite revealing...
> > > > My theory is, that SF is only good when low budget,
> > > > 'cos then you don't have to mainstream it.
> > >
> > > Ye-es. But it has to be tongue-in-cheek if it's low budget. It's like
> > > the Batman TV series v the last movie. The series beats the shit out of
> > > Arnie & co.
> >
> > Well the original Star Trek can't have had that high a budget,
>
> It had a purpose. That's the other condition. I was going to write it
> all down, but couldn't be arsed... There's one of two conditions they
> have to fulfil: either ironic or ...purposeful.
What does purposeful mean?
> > and Dr
> > Who was exactly high concept.
>
> Look, don't confuse the issue with your high-falutin' ideas...
High concept is the phrase that Hollywood seem to attach to big-budget.
Sorry, should have been clearer.
> > Then there's the Twilight Zone. It doesn't
> > have to be big space ships.
>
> Ah yes, but TZ IS high concept. See, there's these three conditions...
???
> > > > > > > I do think Voyager can be enjoyable (be a lot better
> > > > > > > if they killed off half the characters).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Like the Captain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Well... Like that fucking alien with the spotty face. Why don't they
> > > > > just push him out the nearest airlock?
> > > >
> > > > That hologram as well.
> > >
> > > Yes. Unless he starts showing signs of true insanity: "Give me back my
> > > body!!" etc.
> >
> > That would be cool. How they can expect us to take holograms seriously
> > after Red Dwarf I don't know (Actually that got bad pretty rapidly).
>
> That would be... ironic. With a bit of high concept.
What would be?
> > > > So now they have to have one machine character so
> > > > they can explore the cliched teach a machine how to have emotions bit.
> > >
> > > I hate that. As if anyone needs to have emotions.
> >
> > Yeah, its like wildlife stories you get given as a child, where the wild
> > animals are basically humans with fur on them.
>
> Anthropomorphism. It's coming back. A whole channel on Sky. Yik.
Eh?
> > > That was one of the more annoying aspects of the original. I mean
Spock
> > > > was so much cooler than Kirk.
> > >
> > > They should've learnt something from all those stroke postings (ie Spock
> > > fucking Kirk etc.)
> > >
> > > Roddenberry was a total maniac, by all accounts. Thick as pigshit & a
> > > control freak. So I've heard.
> >
> > Have you ever seen any of his other creations.
>
> Dunno. Name one...
He wrote some books didn't he? The immortals, or something. Think there
was another series. He's famous though for the fact that everyone of his
other series was a complete flop, and to be honest the first Star-Trek
trailer was a bit of a dog.
> > I saw one of his films
> > the other night.
>
> What?
I can't remember. It was about a post-nuclear world, where some mutants
are exploiting the pure-humans. It was filled with ugly people, who were
supposed to be sexy. What more do you need?
> > Post-apocolyptic thing. More unwatchable than the Net by Lynda La Plante.
>
> A videotape loop of two fat men endlessly trying to put on the same pair
> of swimming trunks is more watchable.
Actually that sounds pretty damn watchable to me. Mind you I saw this
awful instillation thing at the gallery in London next to the NFT, which
was filled with stuff like that. Uggh. The things I do for a bit of
culture. I'm so middle class ducky, its untrue.
> > > > Sliders has its moments actually... no wait I'm serious... don't go.
> > >
> > > Haven't seen it... yes I have. Are you MAD, sir? Isn't that Brian
> > > Blessed in that?
> >
> > Oh aye, has some nice ideas occasionally. Its on at 6 mind, so I'm
> > comparing it to Voyager and Hollyoaks.
> >
> Good X-over potential there...
Voyager's acting could only improve.
Cian
Duncan
>
> In article
> <F1BF9DA9DAE4C533.BBF0B446...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> >, dramaOMELET...@fastlane.net (Bradly E. Peterson) wrote:
>
> >> When was Anne Heche ever in Berlin? Or did you mean Alan Hale?
>
> > Oh, stop with the jokes, Dave. You KNOW he was talking about
> > Abbie Hoffman!
>
> Really? Well, shut my mouth wide open. I figured he was referring
> to Alfred Hitchcock.
>
that well-known German actor Anton Hembeck.
Duncan
>
> The serious stuff doesn't work
> when you're up to your armpits in gravel.
>
> >
> > Blake's 7 was, and is, superb fun. Again, there's a certain tongue-in-cheek
> > aspect to it - middle-aged Shakespearean actors hamming it up in skin-tight
> > costumes gives it an unavoidable element of camp. But the writers and
> > the actors took it seriously enough to make it a good romp. It harks back
> > to a time when TV writers were much less cynical about popular drama than
> > they are today.
>
> And some of the actresses on the baddy side were total babes.
(feh...)
> And I liked Avon.
Of course you did...
> Of course Duncan hates it, but then he hates anything which doesn't involve sodomy...
That simply isn't true. It's perfectly possible to have a decent game of
football without any sodomy whatsoever. Both halves, too.
> ...and gangsters with poor sarf london accents, so ignore him.
>
Yoo wo'? 'Ere, 'av a look a' wo' this cahnt's sed, the cheeky li'll
bleeder...
WindyTWise
>> > The worst thing about all the spin offs, is that they've bought into
>> > that thing that American sit-coms do, where the beginning sets up a
>> > character's emotional, or personal problem, and by the end there is a
>> > (too) neat wrapping up, leading to some kind of group hug. Yuck.
>>
>> Absolutely, Cian, spot on. This sort of thing is done better in Allie
>> McBeal, if you happen to like it... It doesn't seem to occur to anyone
>> that it's highly unlikely that human relationships would be like that in
>> the future, if they are anywhere now.
>
>I've never watched more than three minutes of Ally McBeal at a time, but
>I'm nonetheless of the belief that every single character on that show is
>in dire need of a serious beating.
I would never rule that thing out on that show. The writer/producer who does
that show already does a serious law-firm show, and this one is the flip-py
opposite. The two shows actually crossed over this season, and the serious law
show characters basically repeated your sentiment. The writer/producer is to
law shows what JMS is to Bablyon 5/Sci-Fi fans: He writes to his audience, and
his audience loves it. Funny thing is, fans of one might not be fans of the
other show.
>If you want really, really, horrid science fiction, look no further than
>that Battlestar Galactica spin-off... Galactica 1980 or something. I
>remember seeing it as a tiny little tot and thought it was downright
>horrible. Kinda like to see it again, though. I'm such a masochist.
To each their own... Oh, and whet your lips: Battlestar Ga-whack-tica is on the
books for some sort of re-do, ala Lost In Space.
>Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
I don't know too many people who like comic books that never liked Doctor Who.
I think budget problems killed the show, and the rest of the (story quality)
reasons you can find on the various fan-sites for that.
>And there was Blake's 7. Don't think I really understood it.
The evil female on that show has to be my favorite evil female
character/actress anywhere/anytime.
Walt "mmmmm... evil female..."Stone
T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents
http://www.thunderagents.com
Sales chart updated for the Top 200 selling comic books through Diamond:
http://members.aol.com/windytwise/sales.htm
Mute
>> > However, this
>> > Saturday they're showing Brimstone & Treacle, which I've never actually
>> > seen.
>>
>> Me neither... That's not the Sting thing is it?
>Yeah. Apparently he plays a John Constantinish character, which brings
>us vaguely back on topic. But worth setting the record button for,
>anyway. Unless you have some urgent need to watch Waterworld on the
>other side...
Sting = Yank remake (or just feature film remake?)
Bloke with curly hair and obvious switches between film OB and video
interiors = television original.
PAUSE!
Just searched IMDB...the original was made for TV in 1976 and has
Denholm Elliot in it, as the old bloke. Remake was in 1982 and has
Denholm Elliot in it as the old bloke.
Eh?
mute
Mute
>> > I saw Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels the other day - it's absolutely
>> > fucking brilliant. Funny, violent... [Spolier Space] Great Italian Job
>> > ending. [Over] Even Vinnie Jones is good. Go see.
>>
>> You're the only person I've come across who likes it.
>(Jesus. If there was one person who'd say that, it had to be you!)
>Really? OK. I always wonder about this... I mean, you either think
>something's funny or you don't; but the most obvious thing about the
>movie is all the stuff it steals from other Brit films (Ladykillers,
>Lavender Hill Mob, Villain, Italian Job, Get Carter!, Long Good Friday,
>Trainspotting are the obvious ones), which it does tongue-in-cheek. I
>figure if you don't get the references you won't like it... if you do,
>you will.
>The only film I've seen recently that's better is LA Confidential. It's
>a hell of a lot better than Trainspotting (imo).
Read the book? I've yet to hear ANY opinion from anyone who'd read
the book first...
Mute.
Mute
>>Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
>>What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
>>a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
>Allegedly, BBC wanted to kill it off, so they made it worse and worse to
>try and kill the audience figures. It just took longer than they expected.
>I'm told it got a bit better again towards the end.
A bit, yeah...only inasmuch as McCoy was a great Doctor.
Unfortunately, the scripts were shite, except for one in each series
written by the same 19 year old kid.
Mute
I remember when people used to netcop offtopic posts around here...
Lots42
and forth into the future was any good.
Yes, yes it was. It just totally blew my mind.
P.S. What the living ding dong hell is wrong with people who do Sci fi comic
books? You don't have to worry about makeup! Make the heroes meet three foot
tall intelligent mice with mile long brain stems! [Of course, they'll have to
be a reclusive race and end up telling the good guys to fuck off but still]. In
comics, you don't need to worry about the makeup!
Lots42: Eskimos Ate Free Willy.
Given the benefits of the generation he's born into, Spider could probably
metabolise anything up to and possibly including furniture. - Warren Ellis
"Scully, what are you wearing?" - Mulder
Corey Klemow
> > Also liked Doctor Who. (At least the Tom Baker and Peter Davidson ones)
> > What the hell happened to it? After PD left, it went downhill faster than
> > a Dalek on an incline. Truly wretched, wretched stuff.
>
> That commie guy tried to turn it into a comedy, didn't he? He's such a
> turd...
What "commie guy"? What are you talking about? DOCTOR WHO has always
teetered between drama and comedy-drama. Douglas "Hitchhiker's Guide"
Adams emphasized the humor more than most when he was script editor; is
*that* what you're talking about???
> I like the one who only lasted like, a day - and then felt his
> carer had been ruined. Wanker.
You are obviously reading and believing tabloids or ill-researched
fanzines that believe everything the tabloids say. There isn't a single
actor who has ever said they feel their career was "ruined" by playing
the Doctor.
William Hartnell stopped playing the Doctor -- and acting altogether --
because of illness. But he loved the part.
Patrick Troughton went on to be the ubiquitous character actor he always
was.
Jon Pertwee continued to work, and made a second success playing the
scarecrow Worzel Gummidge. He loved to appear at conventions in full
Doctor-dress.
Tom Baker is a melancholy fellow in general; sometimes he's morbid about
his past, but he also expresses gratitude and affection for that time in
his life. He also continued to work steadily, most recently with a
regular part on the series "Medics".
Peter Davison enjoyed the role and has continued to work; his only
criticism is that he wishes he'd gotten better scripts (though he loved
the scripts in his final season, but by then it was too late to change
his mind about leaving as Colin had already been hired).
Colin Baker *loved* playing the Doctor, as did Sylvester McCoy and Paul
McGann. All three have recently returned to the role for various audio
productions. Troughton and Pertwee were always keen to reprise their
roles as well -- Troughton in "Three", "Five" and "Two Doctors", Pertwee
in the two radio plays from a few years back.
Lots42
episode) that
about a gazillion billion years ago some humanoid aliens went and spread
-their- humanoid DNA on planets all about the galaxy.
THAT'S why every race Voyager meets looks like scale paid actors with crap on
their foreheads.
Lots42: Eskimos Ate Free Willy
squidly
> Read the book? I've yet to hear ANY opinion from
anyone who'd read
>the book first...
Strangely, I read the book AND saw the stage play
before seeing the film.
They were all a bit of a shock.....in one way or
another.... :-)