LSH: AOL Chat with Peyer, McCraw & Moy - 6/6/95
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Legion of Super-Heroes Chat Hour on Tuesday, June 6, 1995. AOL sponsors
LSH Chat Hour every Tuesday at 6:00 p.m. EDT in the DC Online Comics Chat
area. This sentence is unrelated to the rest of the paragraph. Previous
guests have included Mark Waid, Tom Peyer, Tom McCraw, Jeff Moy & KC Carlson.
DISCLAIMER - Valid only at participating local comic shops.
SPOILERS - Spoiler information follows. This is your only warning.
SPECIAL THANKS - To Sidne Ward who provided not only the chat log for this
report but for the previous two weeks, also. It is right to give her thanks
and praise.
Lee Moder is staying with LSH if Tom Peyer can help it. Same with Moy.
Moy's contract is not up, and it will be renewed when it is up.
Tom and Tom remain the co-plotters with Tom Peyer handling the scripting.
Mark Waid is up in smoke after scripting L* Annual #2. Waid's LSH approach
influences Peyer.
McCraw is coloring Flash #106 entirely by computer, doing the separations
himself. He's anxious to see the results.
If Jeff were writing a LSH spotlight issue, he'd choose one of the cute
girls. He'd pick Cory Carani to ink his pencils.
R.E.B.E.L.S. '9x isn't cancelled. Overlapping R.E.B.E.L.S. and LSH has been
discussed, but nothing's been done.
Peyer sometimes wishes the LSH wasn't in the 30th century so they could play
with the rest of the DC Universe more.
Paul Levitz does comment on the rebooted series. He was very pleased with
the Zero issues.
The LSH may get a mini-series. Moy would like to see a "Legionnaires
Spotlight" series.
Peyer and McCraw didn't have time to write the Showcase stories.
Peyer had been asked to rewrite a story recently, and Jeff commented that he
liked the rewrite because it had a lot of good characterization in it. Peyer
is apparently having trouble keeping Jeff fed with work. Jeff did ask Peyer
to discontinue the mob scenes.
LSH won't become part of DC's rumored SF imprint. Peyer considers LSH a
super-hero book at its core with SF window-dressing.
There are no plans for Timber Wolf, Princess Projectra or Ferro Lad to join
yet.
Bgztl is still a world in another dimension.
The Brainiac 5/Saturn Girl romance is still just a rumor.
Peyer believes the youngish Legionnaires should date around for a while.
McCraw asked what matchups we'd like to see and suggested Shrinking
Violet/Kinetix.
Inferno is her own girl. McCraw thinks of her as Beauty Blaze.
Data's head appears in the background in L* #31 with something else the fans
will recognize.
Peyer promised to "steal" a scene of a villain pounding on Brainy's force
field while he's lost in thought.
Valor's story appears in Superboy #18 & #19, then continues in #21. Issue
#19 will explain where he's at for #20. We can call him M@n-&l all we want,
it won't change anything.
The creators were asked, as a hypothetical, who would they choose if they
wanted to have a death that would shake up Legion fans. Jeff cited Cosmic
Boy, and McCraw cited Ultra Boy.
Triad's usefulness to the team was discussed, and McCraw thinks Lu's proven
that she can take care of herself. He also thinks that events will prove Lu's
detractors wrong.
Kid Quantum is dead as far as Peyer is concerned. He's not in stasis.
McCraw would hate to see Val die again. "It's been too (TWO) many times
already."
Moy claimed that he was Ayla's admirer. Peyer and KC Carlson were mentioned
as suspects.
The Leviathan/Kenetix romance hasn't gotten very far yet. Peyer confessed
that they hadn't dealt with Leviathan's reaction to the power loss.
There will be reader elections for the Legion's leader when it fits in with
the story.
The Superboy/LSH crossover takes place in November dated issues of the
magazines. (On sale in Sept.)
LSH #75 is an Underworld crossover. The Legion will battle Chronos, the old
Atom villain. The issue won't be double-sized. (UW is the fall crossover
event featuring the DC villains.)
XS and Impulse meet in Impulse #9.
We'll probably see the Fatal Five sometime next year. KC Carlson is a fan
and keeps dropping hints to use them.
They have a few new members coming around soon.
Chuck Taine will be returning by the end of the year.
Apparition gets a big moment in the L* annual.
UP President, Madame Chu, doesn't die in the L* annual.
The honest answer to whether there will be a Alchemist/Officer Shvaugn Erin
romance is maybe. It could be a long time.
Roxxas is a Daxamite. It will be apparent why he's a Daxamite, and it fits
with "old" Legion history. McCraw feels it was a necessary change. (This was
discussed, debated and bandied over more than any other topic during the chat
hour. Every newcomer asked the question.)
Saturn Girl's condition will not be drawn out.
Time bubbles will not be featured in the Superboy crossover, but we will see
the reason why the bubbles are needed. It will lead to the Time Institute and
more Rond Vidar.
Brande will be appearing more in the future. McCraw doesn't know if he's a
Durlan yet.
Look for Kenetix's fate towards the end of the year. It was postponed for
the Superboy and Underworld crossovers.
There are plans for Tenzil, but they don't necessarily involve getting him
out from behind the stove. McCraw and Waid were responsible for making him a
chef, and Peyer likes Tenzil in the kitchen.
The plotline about the UP demanding the resignations of 3
Legionnaires--originally scheduled for L* #27--was postponed to LSH #74.
(Which is also the Superboy xover.)
The next Spotlight that they're plotting--LSH #77--is about Brainiac 5.
It won't be the first belt story. (They didn't say if the belt is coming
before that.) The creators were asking which aspects of Brainy's past should
be kept. His name is shrouded in mystery. They promised not to include any
space carnivals. Peyer doesn't think Brainy's past is boring and cites all
the "great math he's done." McCraw suggested that the Infinite Man was too
early for this version of Brainy, and that maybe they should have Brainy go
mad first.
The next spotlight to appear (LSH #73 and L* #30) is about Live Wire and may
include him losing his arm. No plans for the "real* Arm Falls Off Boy yet.
Cosmic Boy will be acting weird soon. The creators wouldn't offer any
further details because it was too important to a lot of story developments.
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"Honesty means never having to say 'Please don't flush me down the toilet.'"
--Bob the Dinosaur, "Bring Me the Head of Willy the Mailboy!"
LLL!
Demophoon
Erin
romance is maybe. It could be a long time.
GARN, not long enough for me!
And here I thought they would choose the right route this "time" around
and
develop Jan Arrah as the closeted teen he was throughout the previous
incarnations.....
I guess I'd settle for Lyle Norg, though.....
(READ! The "dead Legionaires" issue of SECRET ORIGINS!
Is that a.......relationship.....in the ChemicalKing story?)
BE BOLD, LEGIONAIRES!
Demophoon
Tom Galloway
Demophoon <demo...@aol.com> wrote:
>I guess I'd settle for Lyle Norg, though.....
>(READ! The "dead Legionaires" issue of SECRET ORIGINS!
>Is that a.......relationship.....in the ChemicalKing story?)
No, according to Mark Waid, who edited it. Also according to me,
who read it. No romantic overtones at all, unless you read them
into a story of someone who lost his best friend.
"Well, all my childhood friends had Erector Sets, and I happen to know for a
fact that, in addition to the recommended educational projects such as the
Truck, the Crane, and the Carrousel, it was possible to build the Bug Pulper,
the Worm Extender, and the Gears of Pain." --Dave Barry
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
Alan Sepinwall
tro...@indirect.com (T. Troy McNemar, Esq.) kindly wrote that:
>If Jeff were writing a LSH spotlight issue, he'd choose one of the cute
>girls.
Considering the number of similar comments Jeff has made in the past
several AOL Chats, he really needs to get out more. :)
-Alan Sepinwall
-sepi...@mail.sas.upenn.edu
-http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~sepinwal/
RANDOM QUOTE:
"A philosophy major? Now, what can you do with a philosophy
major?"
"You can think deep thoughts about being unemployed."
-Lauren Holly & Jason Scott Lee, "Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story"
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, demo...@aol.com (Demophoon) says:
>GARN, not long enough for me!
>And here I thought they would choose the right route this "time" around
>and
>develop Jan Arrah as the closeted teen he was throughout the previous
>incarnations.....
Untrue. The one time pre-Levitz that Jan was shown with any sexual feeling
at all was toward Ayla, if memory serves, in the revolt of the girl
Legionnaires. Then Shvaughn and he were obviously meant to be together,
until Siva^H^H^H^HTMK came along and decided to inflict their peyote
induced plotting on the work.
>I guess I'd settle for Lyle Norg, though.....
There's no real reason Lyle couldn't be gay.
>(READ! The "dead Legionaires" issue of SECRET ORIGINS!>
>Is that a.......relationship.....in the ChemicalKing story?)
No, it isn't, and I believe you were at the AOL chat were Mark Waid, the
editor of the story said it wasn't. I certainly didn't see it there.
>BE BOLD, LEGIONAIRES!
They had better be careful if they mess with Shvaughn again.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, Dogbert's New Ruling Class
"Hendrix ain't dead, till we say he's dead." - Joel Thomas
Welcome back, Robert Vesco. We've missed you, but I'm sure we'll have you
around for a long, long time. :):)
Yeechang Lee
|They had better be careful if they mess with Shvaughn again.
Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
"peyote-induced" nonsense?
Seriously, I am glad I was temporarily away from comics when Profem
came up--I wouldn't have been surprised if it'd have turned me off
from the Legion permanently. As it is, my mind still boggles at the
sheer audacidic stupidity of this "development" . . .
Yeechang Lee | http://www.columbia.edu/~ylee/ | Nevada Las Vegas Mission'92-'94
Johanna Draper
Tom Galloway <t...@quip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <3r9nnu$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Demophoon <demo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>who read it. No romantic overtones at all, unless you read them
>into a story of someone who lost his best friend.
I believe that you didn't see anything, but enough people have
independently asked about it that it's hard to conclude that there
*weren't* any overtones in that story. When I first read it, I hadn't heard
anything about it, but I definitely saw implications that those two were
more than just friends.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
Yeechang Lee <yl...@manila.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
>on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
>"peyote-induced" nonsense?
Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may disagree
with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
Johanna
Judge Elmo
> Yeechang Lee <yl...@manila.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>>Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
>>on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
>>"peyote-induced" nonsense?
>
> Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
> changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
Good Lord, no. I like John Varley, too. The difference is that in Varley,
easy reversible sex changing actually have effects on the world the
characters live in. Aside from V4 #31, Profem/Promen has *no* effect
on the 30th century--it's not even *mentioned* anywhere else. That's
exceedingly bad SF.
The objection is that a good character who had a lot of fans was revealed
to be a psychotic stalker for no more reason than to retcon in an old fan
theory. They couldn't be bothered to expand on what had gone before or
to adapt their theory, they just overwrote inconveniences like multiyear
heterosexual relationships, without even bothering to make them consistent.
[E.g.: the Dominators put every person the Legion had ever had contact with
in a tube, but not Shvaughn Erin. Or: Shvaughn is really a guy, which
means either that he faked a background to get into the SP--yeah, right--
or that his dependence on Profem is in his records--which the Dominators
have access to, which the Dominators would peruse carefully because of
Shvaughn's Legion connections, but which the Dominators apparently did
nothing about despite having outlawed Profem.]
> LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may disagree
> with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
The issue was an incoherent mess which established nothing and destroyed
much of value.
And just what the hell did young Jan do that upset him so much? Three
years later, I *still* can't figure out what happened in that sequence.
--
"Earth-90210: Like, we can't do a crossover here. This Earth doesn't, like,
even have malls."--Tom Galloway
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnal.fnal.gov)
[ YES ] rec.arts.comics.xbooks
[ YES ] rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh
[ NO ] rec.arts.comics.dc.vertigo
Marc Singer
Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
>
>And just what the hell did young Jan do that upset him so much? Three
>years later, I *still* can't figure out what happened in that sequence.
He killed lots of Dominators. All the complaints about v4's fuzzy story-
telling aside (and I never bought into them anyway), I never thought this
was terribly unclear. There are parts in v4 which one could complain were
too hard to understand -- though only if you couldn't be bothered to read
a little harder or if you *wanted* more excuses to dislike v4 -- but I
never thought this could be one of them.
Marc
Michael A. Chary
Johanna Draper (sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) writes:
> Yeechang Lee <yl...@manila.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>>Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
>>on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
>>"peyote-induced" nonsense?
>
> Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
> changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
No, it is what was done with the idea which was damn little. They introduce,
retroactively, drugs which can change gender and do absolutely nothing with
them other than try to support some fanninsh theory which could have been
supported in roughly a billion other ways. First of all, the theory is that
Jan's homosexual, so turning Shvaughn into a transexual says nothing about
Jan's sexual orientation. Seciond, Shvaughn was an SP so we are to believe
she became a security officer without a background check? Or that she was
allowed in despite her past? Or what? Third, Sean immediately got promoted
so I guess sexism is alive and well :)
> LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may disagree
> with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
I can't dispute your predilection, but I can ask where this fabulous
character interaction was. Erin and Arrah barely communicated at all, and I
still have no clue what the business with SW6 Jan was about. I got the
feeling it was meant to be a statement on the loss of youth but that's
almost a pure guess.
--
When there's no one there, it's Norg.
"The BBC's trailer department keeps calling the O J Simpson case "the trial
of the century." Sure, OJ's a big name, but I still think the title belongs,
narrowly, to Nuremberg." - Jack Hughes, "The Independent on Sunday."
Judge Elmo
> Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
>>And just what the hell did young Jan do that upset him so much? Three
>>years later, I *still* can't figure out what happened in that sequence.
>
> He killed lots of Dominators.
Directly or indirectly? Or was it typical Dominator incompetence that
resulted in their deaths? And what was the suggestion that his powers
ran out of control or that the material of the plaza reacted strangely to
his powers all about?
In other words, while it was clear that Dominators died and Jan was upset,
it was *not* clear how and why they died and why Jan was upset.
--
"Come on, characters with super-strength don't *do* inertia! Or leverage."
--Dani Zweig
Dwight Williams
> In article <3rg7bv$e...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
> Yeechang Lee <yl...@manila.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>>Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
>>on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
>>"peyote-induced" nonsense?
>
> Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
> changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
> with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
Agreed on this one. If this thread is ever picked up again in LSH and
handled well, I can safely say I'll stay with the book just as I did when
that story first hit the stores.
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca)
1706 Caminiti Cres., Orleans, ON, Canada K4A 1M1
Felix J. Torres
>Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
>changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
(Heading on a tangent...)
Hmmm, do I detect a Jack Chalker fan?
I've wondered why nobody has tried to adapt his stuff to comics. The Well of
Souls series would be a natural...
Marc Singer
>> Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
>>>And just what the hell did young Jan do that upset him so much? Three
>>>years later, I *still* can't figure out what happened in that sequence.
>>
>> He killed lots of Dominators.
>
>Directly or indirectly? Or was it typical Dominator incompetence that
>resulted in their deaths? And what was the suggestion that his powers
>ran out of control or that the material of the plaza reacted strangely to
>his powers all about?
>
>In other words, while it was clear that Dominators died and Jan was upset,
>it was *not* clear how and why they died and why Jan was upset.
Although I don't have the issue handy, and haven't read it in some time,
I seem to recall that Jan just carelessly evaporated the ground out from
under them and they were killed in a fall. Come to think of it, some
huge tanks might've fallen on people. I don't recall any suggestion that
it was Jan's *powers* running out of control, rather that *he* lost control
in the heat of battle and made a bad decision.
And the "why Jan was upset" seems even clearer: Trommites Don't Kill. A
characterization which I hope has survived the reboot.
Marc
Michael J. Suzio
>In article <3rg7bv$e...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
>Yeechang Lee <yl...@manila.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
>>Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
>>on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
>>"peyote-induced" nonsense?
>Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
>changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
I can't speak for him, but *I* thought it was among the stupidest, least
thought-out ideas I had ever seen. It doesn't take a lot of thought to
see that something like this is going to be a *big* impact on the
overall universe. Gender roles, even if motivated only by the physical
and hormonal differences between the sexes (rather than socialization),
are a major focal point of a society. The ability to flip sex essentially
at will is pretty mind-blowing.
The thing is, we *never* saw this anywhere in the LSH background before,
nor did we get a really great treatment of it *after* the story. It's
like the Probe robots, it just popped up and never got any kind
of decent explanation or treatment. The Bierbaums just used the Shoehorn
principle to create Sean/Shavaugn, and IMHO did a poor job.
>LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may disagree
>with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
Hmmm.... yeah, if I forget any preconceptions or attachments I had to
the characters, it was OK. But from the perspective of past stories
with these characters, they were pod people in the worst way. I can
forgive rewrites of characters when the new point of view is more
intriguing or challenging, but this was *not* the case here.
But this an old LSH fan viewpoint vs. a V4-only viewpoint, so we don't
have a lot of common ground to discuss this on. I might have liked
v4 on it's own merits, but I can't in the context of *my* Legion.
- Mike
Andrew Ryan Chang
>
>In other words, while it was clear that Dominators died and Jan was upset,
>it was *not* clear how and why they died and why Jan was upset.
Wasn't that whole Trommian story (the cub and his dad, both with
Trommian powers) supposed to explain why young Jan was upset?
I thought it was one of those parallel storylines some writers
like so much.
--
Andrew Chang.
Connection hosed by remote host.
Yeechang Lee
|Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy
|reversible sex changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea
|you're objecting to?
Elmo's already written on this better than I could've. My objection
to it is not that it involved gender-bending but that it is perhaps
the ne plus ultra of totally-implausible-retcon revealed with
absolutely zero foreshadowing. The holes in the plot are big enough
for the entire UP fleet to fly through.
Karl J. Hiller
: In article <3rmnv5$l...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu>, sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) says:
: >Some of the best science fiction I've ever read has had easy reversible sex
: >changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
: (Heading on a tangent...)
: Hmmm, do I detect a Jack Chalker fan?
: I've wondered why nobody has tried to adapt his stuff to comics. The Well of
: Souls series would be a natural...
I think the key words here are "easy reversible." In most cases, the
gender switching (and other transformations) in Chalker's books aren't
even voluntary, much less easy or reversible.
It sounds more like a John Varley fan.
OBLSH: In the Great Darkness Saga, Darkseid steals the power away from a
being who we are told was the Time Trapper, whom the Legion captured
*off-panel* during the Wildfire spotlight issue (#283). Yes, it was
later explained that it wasn't the real Time Trapper, but didn't it
strike anyone as odd that the Legion would have captured one of their
deadliest enemies whom they'd never defeated before, *off-page*? Geez...
--
br...@iglou.com "Shake a person up enough and what they thought was a
--------------- personality starts to separate. We can be *anything*."
- Grant Morrison
Dan Williams
: In article <1995Jun1...@fnalv.fnal.gov>,
: Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
: >ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) writes:
: >> Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
: >>>And just what the hell did young Jan do that upset him so much? Three
: >>>years later, I *still* can't figure out what happened in that sequence.
: >>
: >> He killed lots of Dominators.
: >
: >Directly or indirectly? Or was it typical Dominator incompetence that
: >resulted in their deaths? And what was the suggestion that his powers
: >ran out of control or that the material of the plaza reacted strangely to
: >his powers all about?
: >In other words, while it was clear that Dominators died and Jan was upset,
: >it was *not* clear how and why they died and why Jan was upset.
: Although I don't have the issue handy, and haven't read it in some time,
: I seem to recall that Jan just carelessly evaporated the ground out from
: under them and they were killed in a fall. Come to think of it, some
: huge tanks might've fallen on people. I don't recall any suggestion that
: it was Jan's *powers* running out of control, rather that *he* lost control
: in the heat of battle and made a bad decision.
Jan is never careless. He was trying to block the way of the Dominators
with a large pothole. Suddenly the hole he envisioned grew much larger and
swallowed the Tanks and all. Jan was shocked and traumatized by his
involuntary killing of another living creature.
Now why did this happen?
: And the "why Jan was upset" seems even clearer: Trommites Don't Kill. A
: characterization which I hope has survived the reboot.
Yep Marc, your quite correct. This is why Jan was upset. But it doesn't
answer the what happened question. My theory is this was just another clue
that the sw6 batch wasn't the originals. Jan's powers had been increased
but he wasn't prepared for this and that was why the road disapeared.
--
Daniel J. Williams URL> http://www.peak.org/~djwilli
Opinions, and spelling expressed here are uniquely my own.
"Is that how a warped brain like your's gets its kicks?
By planning the deaths of innocent people?"
"No... by *causing* the deaths of innocent people."
--Superman and Lex Luthor discussing what to do on a Saturday night
Dan Williams
: sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
: > Yeechang Lee <yl...@manila.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
: >>Hmm Mike, what say you, me, and others from here lead an armed assult
: >>on DC HQ if they pull anything else like Profem and other such
: >>"peyote-induced" nonsense?
: > changing as a part of its universe. Is that the idea you're objecting to?
: Good Lord, no. I like John Varley, too. The difference is that in Varley,
: easy reversible sex changing actually have effects on the world the
: characters live in. Aside from V4 #31, Profem/Promen has *no* effect
: on the 30th century--it's not even *mentioned* anywhere else. That's
: exceedingly bad SF.
John Varley, great local author. Wish he hadn't been so sucessful so he
would have remained hungry and writing.
: The objection is that a good character who had a lot of fans was revealed
: to be a psychotic stalker for no more reason than to retcon in an old fan
: theory. They couldn't be bothered to expand on what had gone before or
: to adapt their theory, they just overwrote inconveniences like multiyear
: heterosexual relationships, without even bothering to make them consistent.
: [E.g.: the Dominators put every person the Legion had ever had contact with
: in a tube, but not Shvaughn Erin. Or: Shvaughn is really a guy, which
: means either that he faked a background to get into the SP--yeah, right--
: or that his dependence on Profem is in his records--which the Dominators
: have access to, which the Dominators would peruse carefully because of
: Shvaughn's Legion connections, but which the Dominators apparently did
: nothing about despite having outlawed Profem.]
The S.P.s had no record of Shvaughn using profem. If they had Circe would
have had Shvaughn put away for life as a dangerous drug adicted person.
Then she would have shiped vids of her transformation trauma and pain to
Dirk as a warning to avoid other such infatuations.
Judge Elmo
> [I wrote:]
> : Shvaughn is really a guy, which
> : means either that he faked a background to get into the SP--yeah, right--
> : or that his dependence on Profem is in his records--which the Dominators
> : have access to, which the Dominators would peruse carefully because of
> : Shvaughn's Legion connections, but which the Dominators apparently did
> : nothing about despite having outlawed Profem.]
>
> The S.P.s had no record of Shvaughn using profem. If they had Circe would
> have had Shvaughn put away for life as a dangerous drug adicted person.
So what you're saying is, in fact, that the SPs don't bother to do
background checks on their hires? I don't think so, effendi.
--
The Feynman problem-solving algorithm:
1) Write down the problem
2) Think real hard
3) Write down the answer
--Murray Gell-mann, in the _New York Times_
Johanna Draper
Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
>ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) writes:
>> Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
>>>And just what the hell did young Jan do that upset him so much? Three
>>>years later, I *still* can't figure out what happened in that sequence.
>>
>> He killed lots of Dominators.
>
>Directly or indirectly?
Indirectly, I guess. He turned pavement beneath them into a huge gaping
hole, and when their vehicles went into it, large numbers of them were
killed.
> And what was the suggestion that his powers ran out of control or that
> the material of the plaza reacted strangely to his powers all about?
He, as a good Legionnaire, didn't intend to kill anyone, only stop them.
Thus the suggestion that the reaction with the plaza ran faster than he
expected.
> In other words, while it was clear that Dominators died and Jan was
> upset, it was *not* clear how and why they died and why Jan was upset.
Sure it was. 1) People were dead as a result of his actions. All
Legionnaires are supposed to get upset at that, on top of which he was from
Trom, the peaceful society. 2) They show and tell about the deaths, just in
case you miss one or the other.
I'm having a hard time believing you really didn't know what was going on
in this issue. I'd read very little Legion (and very few comics in those
years) at the time I found it, and I had no problem knowing what was going
on.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
>> LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may disagree
>> with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
>
>much of value.
I'm not talking about the issue as it fit into continuity. I'm talking
about the issue as a stand-alone story. Try approaching it as if you didn't
know the characters. You'll find out everything you need to know (except,
maybe, that young Jan and old Jan are the same person displaced in time).
*And* it's got some wonderful parallelism and hopeful messages.
Johanna
Abhiji...@transarc.com
sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
> >sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> >> LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may
>>>disagree with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
> >
> >The issue was an incoherent mess which established nothing and destroyed
> >much of value.
[ To Elmo]
What did it destroy ? And before you bring up the "Great Social
changes caused by Profem" bit, let me remind you that there are a
thousand and one gadgets and gimmicks in the LSH universe such as the
anti-aging ray whose social implications are far, far greater than
this. We can change sex on our Earth right now, although its not
painless or easy and there are no great social changes as a result of
this.
> know the characters. You'll find out everything you need to know (except,
> maybe, that young Jan and old Jan are the same person displaced in time).
> *And* it's got some wonderful parallelism and hopeful messages.
I agree. This was a beautiful, moving story, giving us a greater idea
of what Jan is all about than any comic before or since. It built on
the work of Levitz and Shooter.
I think the real problem with this story isn't the story itself so much
as the fact that many LSH fans were so ticked off at Tom and Mary by
this time (this came out just after the Garth/Proty mess) that they
were unwilling to even try to like this story.
Abhijit
Brett McHargue
aspect of #31 of LSH V4:
: But this an old LSH fan viewpoint vs. a V4-only viewpoint, so we don't
: have a lot of common ground to discuss this on. I might have liked
: v4 on it's own merits, but I can't in the context of *my* Legion.
Well, as an old LSH fan who enjoyed this issue and the resultant Sean, I
can add that enjoying the 'old' Legion does not pre-dispose one to hating
the V4 Legion. In fact, it is the unique 'takes' on the old Legion,
projected into the future (sometimes carried to the extreme) that was
part of the enjoyment for myself--I only have to look at my own life to
see how people and events can change given the new perspective of age.
Brett
Yeechang Lee
|I'm not talking about the issue as it fit into continuity. I'm talking
|about the issue as a stand-alone story.
But Johanna, isn't it symptomatic of a greater weakness if one has to
go to such contortions to understand what was designed and intended to
be part of an ongoing saga?
Judge Elmo
>> Judge Elmo <mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov> wrote:
>> >sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>> >> LSH v4 31 might just be my all-time favorite Legion story. You may
>>>>disagree with the gimmick, but the character interaction was fabulous.
>> >
>> >The issue was an incoherent mess which established nothing and destroyed
>> >much of value.
>
Shvaughn Erin, who went from being a character I really liked to a
character I didn't. She used to be a nice, normal, even rather boring
character. A lot like me, in other words. She provided an interesting
perspective for the Legion (otherwise largely filled with the wealthy heirs
to the political power of the UP). Like Thom, she provided me with
a great deal of identification.
What was she replaced with? A being with psychological flaws so vast that
it merits an entire week of Talk Soup all to itself. Had they introduced a
new character like this, I might well have been interested. As it was,
they killed a character I vastly preferred, and did so in a way I do not
value. Further, their new character had big ol' holes in its backstory
which were never addressed.
[As a tangential froth, young Jan's characterization was ever so slightly
ham-handed. In #31, he's given traumas past and contrived traumas present to
deal with; in #32, he's "talking, really talking" about them (off-panel, of
course. Everything interesting or important occurred off-panel.) No
mention of the Legion code against killing.]
Clearly I am not objective in this matter. I don't see that I have to be.
--
"It might be in the basement, I'll go upstairs and check."
--attributed to M.C. Escher
Ken Arromdee
<Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>What did it destroy ? And before you bring up the "Great Social
>changes caused by Profem" bit, let me remind you that there are a
>thousand and one gadgets and gimmicks in the LSH universe such as the
>anti-aging ray whose social implications are far, far greater than
>this.
The anti-aging ray is a _dumb_ idea, and for all practical purposes was
retconned away whether or not anyone explicitly said so. And it's a dumb
idea for exactly that reason: it _would_ have big implications, and we never
see them.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Romana: "But he had such an honest face!"
Doctor: "Romana! You can't be a successful thief with a _dis_honest face!"
Abhiji...@transarc.com
mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov (Judge Elmo) writes:
> Shvaughn Erin, who went from being a character I really liked to a
> character I didn't. She used to be a nice, normal, even rather boring
> character.
Boring is the key word. I can't really think of one thing distinctive
about her, except that she had red hair.
> What was she replaced with? A being with psychological flaws so vast that
> it merits an entire week of Talk Soup all to itself.
This I take strong exception to. At most, you could say (s)he was
guilty of being too much in love and indulging in mildly obsessive
behavior. [ And bear in mind that her first use of Profem occured when
she was still in her teens.]. That is a far cry from "vast
psychological flaws".
Ted Faber
>This I take strong exception to. At most, you could say (s)he was
>guilty of being too much in love and indulging in mildly obsessive
>behavior. [ snip ]. That is a far cry from "vast psychological flaws".
Any chance I can get you to come to my next "evaluation" and tell the doc
that? See, that's *my* position, but for some reason they don't buy it ....
I'll give you a dollar, if they let me out. :-)
"Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence." -- H.L. Mencken
--
Ted Faber Figment at Large fa...@cinenet.net
"Imagine the most abhorrent person. Let's call him Ted." -- Peter Himmelman
Johanna Draper
Yeechang Lee <yc...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>Johanna Draper <sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> says:
>|I'm not talking about the issue as it fit into continuity. I'm talking
>|about the issue as a stand-alone story.
>
>But Johanna, isn't it symptomatic of a greater weakness if one has to
>go to such contortions to understand what was designed and intended to
>be part of an ongoing saga?
No. I'm not saying that you *have* to take LSH 31 that way; I was just
trying to get people to look at it outside the context of "grumble
grumble TMK ruined my Legion grumble grumble". It's obvious that that
issue is a spotlight issue, just as the LSH has had many spotlights in
the past.
Johanna
Abhiji...@transarc.com
> >This I take strong exception to. At most, you could say (s)he was
> >guilty of being too much in love and indulging in mildly obsessive
> >behavior. [ snip ]. That is a far cry from "vast psychological flaws".
>
> Any chance I can get you to come to my next "evaluation" and tell the doc
> that? See, that's *my* position, but for some reason they don't buy it ....
>
> I'll give you a dollar, if they let me out. :-)
Hey, they let me out, they'll let anyone out. Same location, same
mental affliction :-). Tell ya what: I'll send this guy called
Jonathan Crane, an actual honest-to-god psychology professor, to speak
to your doctors ..
Abhijit
David Hamburger
>Seriously, I am glad I was temporarily away from comics when Profem
>came up--I wouldn't have been surprised if it'd have turned me off
>from the Legion permanently. As it is, my mind still boggles at the
>sheer audacidic stupidity of this "development" . . .
Sorry, but I don't see what's wrong with the concept of Profem. It
would seem that if there were still a demand for the product (this
could lead to a VERY long and VERY off-topic discussion of whether
gender characteristics are inate or created by society,) which I'd bet
there would be, then science would probably be able to devise it over
the next 1000 years! Remember that virtually everything in our lives
didn't exist 1000 years ago.
If what you're considering stupid is Shvaughn's actual retconned
sex-change, it was just a way to have Jan be "sort-of" gay, which had
been Giffen's original intent years earlier, just before Levitz
evolved their relationship into a romantic one (AFTER Giffen left!)
Maybe not the best solution, but it worked fine for me.
David
Abhiji...@transarc.com
arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
> <Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
> >What did it destroy ? And before you bring up the "Great Social
> >changes caused by Profem" bit, let me remind you that there are a
> >thousand and one gadgets and gimmicks in the LSH universe such as the
> >anti-aging ray whose social implications are far, far greater than
> >this.
>
> The anti-aging ray is a _dumb_ idea, and for all practical purposes was
> retconned away whether or not anyone explicitly said so. And it's a dumb
> idea for exactly that reason: it _would_ have big implications, and we never
> see them.
But my point was that there are lots of gadgets/trends that would show far
greater social implications than Profem/Rokyn. Its possible to change
sex NOW, and we don't see that many people doing it (although its
harder than just a drug).
There are several reasons why people may not want to change. Side
effects of drug, societal disapproval, general satisfaction with their
own sexual ids etc.
Has the LSH comic ever dealt with the implications of sex between
species (humanoid and non humanoid for instance) ? Or the possibility
of more than 2 sexes, or hermaphroditism ? There are so many things
that just aren't covered in the space opera type storytelling in the
Legion. Focusing on just Profem doesn't make sense to me.
Abhijit
Judge Elmo
> <Abhiji...@transarc.com> wrote:
>>What did it destroy ? And before you bring up the "Great Social
>>changes caused by Profem" bit, let me remind you that there are a
>>thousand and one gadgets and gimmicks in the LSH universe such as the
>>anti-aging ray whose social implications are far, far greater than
>>this.
>
> The anti-aging ray is a _dumb_ idea, and for all practical purposes was
> retconned away whether or not anyone explicitly said so. And it's a dumb
> idea for exactly that reason: it _would_ have big implications, and we never
> see them.
The "ray" in 235 was a hyponosis ray, not an anti-geriatric treatment.
But I quibble.
It's long been my opinion that that issue offers the potential for some
very interesting changes. What's more, assuming the life extension is
small (e.g. 50% extra lifespan, not 250%), they're subtle changes which
could easily go unnoticed until the writer decides to look at them. For
instance, how old is Anton Relnic? How long has he been an ambassador?
We don't know; we don't need to know, until it become relevant.
--
"REALISTIC ORIGIN COMICS: BATMAN. Young Bruce Wayne was walking home with
his parents one night, when a mugger stepped out of the shadows and murdered
his parents in front of him. Bruce never truly got over the trauma, and after
a childhood full of reform schools, he was placed into Arkham Asylum after
claiming that a bat had told him that he had to dress up in a funny costume
and beat criminals into submission."--Mike Schiffer et al.
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) says:
>No. I'm not saying that you *have* to take LSH 31 that way; I was just
>trying to get people to look at it outside the context of "grumble
>grumble TMK ruined my Legion grumble grumble". It's obvious that that
>issue is a spotlight issue, just as the LSH has had many spotlights in
>the past.
Well, yes, except that most of the LSH spotlights in the past (such as
Wildfire's in v2 #282, or Cosmic Boy's in v2 297, or Starboy's c v2 306 or
Gim's in v3 39, or...) mananged to highlight the character's past without
really changing anything significant to the charatcer himself, like, say,
gender for instance. I mean they changed Wildfire to not being a an
astroengineer, but they also said that he lied about it, and who really
cares if Wilfire was an astroengineer. (At the time, I was pretty upset
though :)) On the other hand, they turned Schvaugn into Sean, and then
didn't do anything. They gave him a promotion, which makes me wonder about
gender roles in the thirtieth century ("Well, gee, Sean, you used to be a
drug addict until two weeks back, but since you're a man now, have a
promotion.)
That being said, I wouldn't have minded it so much if it wasn't another
pointless TMK retcon like Kid Shoehorn, Proty/Garth, Lu's presonalities,
etc.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, Dogbert's New Ruling Class
"Hendrix ain't dead, till we say he's dead." - Joel Thomas
In memoriam Roger Zelazny, 1937-1995, author of Amber, This Immortal, Lord
of Light, Dilvish the Damned, and others too numerous to mention.
Marc Singer
Michael A. Chary <ma...@po.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
>
>Well, yes, except that most of the LSH spotlights in the past (such as
>Wildfire's in v2 #282, or Cosmic Boy's in v2 297, or Starboy's c v2 306 or
>Gim's in v3 39, or...) mananged to highlight the character's past without
>really changing anything significant to the charatcer himself, like, say,
>gender for instance. I mean they changed Wildfire to not being a an
>astroengineer, but they also said that he lied about it, and who really
They also said Sean Erin lied, too. So it's all okay now? :)
>That being said, I wouldn't have minded it so much if it wasn't another
>pointless TMK retcon like Kid Shoehorn, Proty/Garth, Lu's presonalities,
>etc.
It's the lack of development that really irked me. Lu's personalities,
no big deal, it was just touching up the characterization a bit; keeping it
consistent, which they did, was all the followup that change needed. But
saying someone is a different gender, or a different personality entirely,
that's something you need to build on. :) Especially since I actually
thought Proty/Garth had *great* potential, and a storyline in which Imra
learned this would have been really neat...
Marc
Ken Arromdee
Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>It's the lack of development that really irked me. Lu's personalities,
>no big deal, it was just touching up the characterization a bit; keeping it
>consistent, which they did, was all the followup that change needed.
Giving Luornu multiple personalities is about the equivalent of giving
Colossal Boy a fear of heights, Dawnstar a fear of flying, making a character
concerned about her appearance fat (wait, they did that, didn't they?), making
a liar and cheater out of a character whose motto is "Fair Play", etc.
They're gratuitously messing around with a character in a way that just hap-
pens, by no coincidence, to "fit" ironically with what we already know of the
character even though it has no logical connection.
Johanna Draper
>>It's obvious that that issue is a spotlight issue, just as the LSH has
>>had many spotlights in the past.
>
>Wildfire's in v2 #282, or Cosmic Boy's in v2 297, or Starboy's c v2 306 or
>Gim's in v3 39, or...) mananged to highlight the character's past without
>really changing anything significant to the charatcer himself, like, say,
>gender for instance.
They didn't change the spotlight character's gender -- this wasn't Sean's
spotlight, but Jan's. Sean was a device to highlight who Jan was.
> I mean they changed Wildfire to not being a an astroengineer, but they
> also said that he lied about it, and who really cares if Wilfire was an
> astroengineer.
They also brought him back from the dead. But that's not really a big
character change, right? :)
> They gave him a promotion, which makes me wonder about gender roles in
> the thirtieth century ("Well, gee, Sean, you used to be a drug addict
> until two weeks back, but since you're a man now, have a promotion.)
And people say *I'm* paranoid about reading gender roles into comics!
> That being said, I wouldn't have minded it so much if it wasn't another
> pointless TMK retcon like Kid Shoehorn, Proty/Garth, Lu's
> presonalities, etc.
I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but ...
Garth having Proty's soul is more elegant to me than a transfer of "life
force" from what was at the time the equivalent of an animal.
Lu having slightly distinct personalities makes more sense to me than "one
of my bodies is dead, tra la".
Johanna
Michael A. Chary
In a previous article, sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) says:
>Michael A. Chary <ma...@po.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
>>In a previous article, sg94...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Johanna Draper) says:
>>>It's obvious that that issue is a spotlight issue, just as the LSH has
>>>had many spotlights in the past.
>>Well, yes, except that most of the LSH spotlights in the past (such as
>>Wildfire's in v2 #282, or Cosmic Boy's in v2 297, or Starboy's c v2 306 or
>>Gim's in v3 39, or...) mananged to highlight the character's past without
>>really changing anything significant to the charatcer himself, like, say,
>>gender for instance.
>
>They didn't change the spotlight character's gender -- this wasn't Sean's
>spotlight, but Jan's. Sean was a device to highlight who Jan was.
Oh? I don't believe you. You're making this up as yuou go along. Admit it
:) (I just re-read the issue this weekend, and I think either you're
wrong, or they did a horrid job of using that particular literary device.)
>> I mean they changed Wildfire to not being a an astroengineer, but they
>> also said that he lied about it, and who really cares if Wilfire was an
>> astroengineer.
>
>They also brought him back from the dead. But that's not really a big
>character change, right? :)
Well, only 6 or 7 issues later, and a case can probably be made that they
always intended to do that.
>> They gave him a promotion, which makes me wonder about gender roles in
>> the thirtieth century ("Well, gee, Sean, you used to be a drug addict
>> until two weeks back, but since you're a man now, have a promotion.)
>
>And people say *I'm* paranoid about reading gender roles into comics!
Okay, what *else* happened after he got back to the land of testosterone?
>> That being said, I wouldn't have minded it so much if it wasn't another
>> pointless TMK retcon like Kid Shoehorn, Proty/Garth, Lu's
>> presonalities, etc.
>
>I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but ...
>
>Garth having Proty's soul is more elegant to me than a transfer of "life
>force" from what was at the time the equivalent of an animal.
Maybe, but a)that was a decision that was made 25 years before and there was
no reason to fix it at that particular time, and b) changing it
contradicted almost every Garth centered story ever written after the
resurrection tale.
>Lu having slightly distinct personalities makes more sense to me than "one
>of my bodies is dead, tra la".
Read the first annual and get back to me. :) I mean, when Levitz got around
to making these characters individuals she was quite affected by it.