Dr. Reset or ... How I learned to stop worrying and love the Reboot
Ken from Chicago
the reset button. At least the Big Two will. We know the DC and Marvel
universes are really cyclical universes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_universe_theory
Every ten years--our time--their universes are reborn. Many of similar
elements survive, "in essence", from one universe to another.
DC has been a bit more formal and explicit with COIE (CRISIS ON INFINITE
EARTHS), ZH (ZERO HOUR) and IC (INFINITE CRISIS).
Marvel has been less so with HEROES REBORN, SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE, and
technically ULTIMATE MARVEL (tho it's more like DC's Silver Age reboot of
Golden Age superheroes and it turning out the former are on Earth-1 and the
latter are on Earth-2, aka parallel universe), or simply rebooting the
origins of individual characters over time (e.g., Tony Stark and Punisher's
origins being tied to various wars).
However similar characters and themes survive from one reboot to the next
universe. Why not fully go with the flow on that. KNOWING that the universes
are cyclical, publishers could truly establish a hyper-continuity that
survives the reboots, where characters retain fragments of memories, from
time to time, in occassional flashes, thus rewarding the loyalty of
long-time readers, while having greater freedom to try different directions
after the latest reboot.
I'd like to take credit for this idea, however, IT ALREADY EXISTS. DC has
published something akin to this over a decade ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunk_(comics)
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=chunk
And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus#Rebirth
Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of despair and
despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say in
driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
*** USE *** THE REBOOT.
"Master the reboot or it will master you."
-- Sensei Ken-san from dojo Chicago
P.S. Of course, the catch is knowing what "elements" to keep the same. (see
Spider-man, re: "Sins Past" or Batman, re: Afraid of the running man)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe/msg/8733bc2c303df747?hl=en&
STRATEGY
Call me crazy, but wasn't Heroes Return a return to the the Silver age
Marvel universe?
Seems like Marvel always updates the timeline piecemeal , not with big
events like Crisis.
I'm almost ready to say Marvel has never done an offical reboot, but I
know far less that you I'm sure.
STRATEGY
Anim8rFSK
Martin Phipps
> Look, we all know every decade or so TPTB (The Publishers That Be) will push
> the reset button. At least the Big Two will. We know the DC and Marvel
> universes are really cyclical universes.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_universe_theory
The cyclic universe theory is related to the cosmological constant:
Einstein imagined the cosmological constant as a force that would
counteract the force of grac\vity and prevent the entire universe from
collapsing into a black hole. Astronomers now believe that the
cosmological constant actually exceeds the amount that would be
necessary for a steady-state universe and that the expansion of the
universe is actually accelerating. (See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Energy ) A revised version of the
cyclic universe theory would then have to assume that the cosmological
constant is not a constant at all but rather that it was once very
large, as in inflationary theory (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflationary_theory ) and will one day go
to zero and allow the universe to collapse as Einstein feared it would.
As at least 90% of the universe is dark matter (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter ) there is a chance that there
may be enough matter in the universe to make such a "big crunch"
possible, although inflationary theory actually predicts that the
universe will continue to expand forever. In order for the universe to
collapse, the cosmological constant may have to become negative, that
it that it would have to become an attractive rather than a repulsive
force.
What this has to do with retroactive continuity in the Marvel and DC
universes I have no idea.
> Every ten years--our time--their universes are reborn. Many of similar
> elements survive, "in essence", from one universe to another.
>
> DC has been a bit more formal and explicit with COIE (CRISIS ON INFINITE
> EARTHS), ZH (ZERO HOUR) and IC (INFINITE CRISIS).
>
> Marvel has been less so with HEROES REBORN, SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE, and
> technically ULTIMATE MARVEL (tho it's more like DC's Silver Age reboot of
> Golden Age superheroes and it turning out the former are on Earth-1 and the
> latter are on Earth-2, aka parallel universe), or simply rebooting the
> origins of individual characters over time (e.g., Tony Stark and Punisher's
> origins being tied to various wars).
Marvel's "reboots" are similar to what happened in those movie serials
that used to be shown in theatres: at the end of one episode, the hero
would be in a car which drives off a cliff and explodes in a burst of
flames; the next week, the audience sees the hero roll away from the
car before it went off the cliff. Similarly, Norman Osborn is able to
come back because he didn't really die but rather needed time to
"heal". The accumulative effect of this retroactive continuity is
similar to a reboot because nothing ever permanently changes, except
that when minor changes are made over time no stories fall out of
continuity, except maybe that story where Spiderman teamed up with John
Belushi, seeing as how John Belushi would now have been already dead
when Peter parker became Spiderman.
> However similar characters and themes survive from one reboot to the next
> universe. Why not fully go with the flow on that. KNOWING that the universes
> are cyclical, publishers could truly establish a hyper-continuity that
> survives the reboots, where characters retain fragments of memories, from
> time to time, in occassional flashes, thus rewarding the loyalty of
> long-time readers, while having greater freedom to try different directions
> after the latest reboot.
You're asking different things of the Marvel and DC universes. For DC,
you are asking characters to remember people and events that no longer
ever existed and no longer ever happened. But instead DC has made a
point to have their characters not remember pre-Crisis characters and
events. (See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergirl#.22With_a_Vengeance.22 ) For
Marvel, you are asking characters to remember events exactly as they
happened when they couldn't have happened that way. If Spiderman were
to meet Jim Belushi, they might reminisce about when they teamed up
against the Silver Samuri, even though that particular Marvel Team Up
story was about Spiderman and JOHN Belushi.
> I'd like to take credit for this idea, however, IT ALREADY EXISTS. DC has
> published something akin to this over a decade ago.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunk_(comics)
>
> http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=chunk
>
> And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus#Rebirth
Um, no. These stories were refering to the theoretical cyclic rebirth
of the universe every 30 billion years, not every ten years.
> Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of despair and
> despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say in
> driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
>
> *** USE *** THE REBOOT.
Three words: House of M. What DC needs are some mutants who can
remember the way things happened before the reboot and then make others
remember too. :)
Come to think of it: House of M was a permanent reboot in the sense
that many mutants no longer had powers afterwards, but it wasn't a
complete reboot in that people remembered the way things were and knew
things were different.
Age of Apocalypse was a similar story to House of M and, again, there
were some permanent effects such as the introduction of X-Man. (See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Man )
Being able to remember events that happened before reboots and retcons
would be a kind of fourth wall breaking, something that readers and
editors alike don't typically tolerate outside of She-Hulk. The
closest to what you're asking would be what happened when both Collosus
and Psylocke both recently came back from the dead: the latter's return
was almost completely left unexplained which led to characters, in
story, wondering if it was in fact not possible to permanently kill an
X-Man, that they will always find some way to come back from the dead.
The X-Men noted the irony of this sentiment when Northstar then died.
He has since come back. :)
Martin
Brian Henderson
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of despair and
>despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say in
>driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
Because Marvel and DC never learn anything from the reboot, they just
go on making the same mistakes over and over and over so that the next
reboot down the line becomes necessary. Reboots never improve
anything, they just put it back to an earlier time before they've
completely screwed up their universe. And the screwing starts anew.
Ken from Chicago
"STRATEGY" <Strat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157859056.9...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Call me crazy, but wasn't Heroes Return a return to the the Silver age
> Marvel universe?
>
> Seems like Marvel always updates the timeline piecemeal , not with big
> events like Crisis.
>
> I'm almost ready to say Marvel has never done an offical reboot, but I
> know far less that you I'm sure.
>
>
> STRATEGY
No, you're right. I said Marvel doesn't do it as formalized.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Anim8rFSK" <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ANIM8Rfsk-8BAE8...@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <qcGdnWOvhK5uo57Y...@comcast.com>,
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
<snip>
>> And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
>>
> JMS
At least he didn't have Peter killed, raised, depressed and having an S&M
affair with a vampire.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157867373....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You're turning to superhero stories for astrophysics? I think we can use
physics as a starting point into sf.
Occassional flashes of memories, maybe dreams--and not necessarily every
detail.
>> I'd like to take credit for this idea, however, IT ALREADY EXISTS. DC has
>> published something akin to this over a decade ago.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunk_(comics)
>>
>> http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=chunk
>>
>> And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus#Rebirth
>
> Um, no. These stories were refering to the theoretical cyclic rebirth
> of the universe every 30 billion years, not every ten years.
Ten years OUR time. I thought I mentioned that.
Okay, going with the Reboots aren't going to always be winners, to wit:
immediately post-Crisis. (For the record, there's Crisis and there's IC aka
Infinite Crisis. COIE has dibs on "Crisis".)
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4gc7g2tuk3kae2270...@4ax.com...
To be fair to DC and Marvel (alphabetically and chronologically DC is
first), they are monolithic. There are factions within each organization
that have differing perspectives on things, on what is right and wrong and
mistaken in their respective superhero universes. By having cyclic
universes, each faction could at least have the hope their perspective has a
chance to hold sway after a reboot.
One reboot produces a very serious, stripped down, basic, realistic (within
reason) version of superhero universe. Another could be more fanciful, ala
the Golden or Silver ages of superhero comics. Another could be more
technological, more traditionally science fiction, while another could be
more traditionally fantasy. More superbeings, less superbeings, more
space-based, less space-based, etc.
With characters retaining glimpses of the past in fleeting moments,
inspiring them to act or perhaps scaring them off down a different path. You
establish a kind of hyper-continuity, meta-continuity, super-continuity that
exists above or below the current reboot's continuity, so you reward both
long-time readers and their loyalty, while not intimidating new readers who
don't know about the Mopee, the Spider-Mobile, or Claire Kent.
-- Ken from Chicago (who didn't know about Claire Kent until a few weeks
ago)
Martin Phipps
> "Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1157867373....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_universe_theory
> >
> > The cyclic universe theory is related to the cosmological constant
>
You do know what your link was refering to, don't you???
> > You're asking different things of the Marvel and DC universes. For DC,
> > you are asking characters to remember people and events that no longer
> > ever existed and no longer ever happened. But instead DC has made a
> > point to have their characters not remember pre-Crisis characters and
> > events. (See
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergirl#.22With_a_Vengeance.22 )
>
> Occassional flashes of memories, maybe dreams--and not necessarily every
> detail.
I followed the reference in the Supergirl wikipedia article.
Apparently MXYZPTLK remembered not only pre-Crisis Supergirl but also
Cir-El because he brought them back into existance (temporarily?) in
Superman/Batman. Superman then, in Superman / Batman # 25 says "they
all seem familiar" which presumably means he does have vague memories
of pre-Crisis Supergirl and Cir-El.
Also in Heroes Reborn, the characters did have vague memories of their
past lives, which presumably implied that they were the real deal and
not just creations of Franklin Richards. (I'm thinking specifically of
the Fantastic Four. Maybe somebody can cite examples.)
Heroes Reborn could arguably be considered a reboot except that current
continuity seems to ignore Heroes Reborn and just claim that Fantasic
Four #1 took place ten years ago and THAT is why the characters still
look young.
> >> I'd like to take credit for this idea, however, IT ALREADY EXISTS. DC has
> >> published something akin to this over a decade ago.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunk_(comics)
> >>
> >> http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=chunk
> >>
> >> And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus#Rebirth
> >
> > Um, no. These stories were refering to the theoretical cyclic rebirth
> > of the universe every 30 billion years, not every ten years.
>
> Ten years OUR time. I thought I mentioned that.
But ten years of comics does not chronicle 30 billion years of a
universe's existance. The mechanism for rebooting the universe is not
big crunch / big bang.
Martin
tr2...@hotmail.com
One of the bad things is that on each reboot they go back and retell old
stories so that you know what happened in the new reality. The problems are
that (1) most of the old history is lost each time. (2) They are too vague on
what is and is not included, since DC doesn't know either. (3) Usually the new
version is not as good as the old stories anyway.
Here is what DC should do. Always have a multiverse. Almost every story takes
place in the present and in general don't age any characters. Instead of
'rebooting' every 10 or 20 years, add a new universe and announce this will be
the new primary universe. But all the older ones are still around and available
for writers and readers so they can still have new silver age stories, golden
age stories, etc. On the first page or cover of every story put the universe
number (or name). DC probably thinks this would be too confusing but it would
actually be less confusing. The existing readers would understand this concept
pretty easy. And any new readers would understand more easily where their new
comics fit into any past continuity.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
rec.arts.comics.dc.universe. The speaker: tr2...@hotmail.com
> Here is what DC should do. Always have a multiverse.
> Almost every story takes place in the present and in
> general don't age any characters. Instead of 'rebooting'
> every 10 or 20 years, add a new universe and announce this
> will be the new primary universe. But all the older ones
> are still around and available for writers and readers so
> they can still have new silver age stories, golden age
> stories, etc. On the first page or cover of every story
> put the universe number (or name). DC probably thinks this
> would be too confusing but it would actually be less
> confusing. The existing readers would understand this
> concept pretty easy. And any new readers would understand
> more easily where their new comics fit into any past
> continuity.
I think the reason DC don't do this isn't because they think
it would be confusing, it's because they think it would dilute
the primary universe if most of the readers considered the
"proper" versions of the characters to exist in one of the
secondary universes. (Considering the proper versions to come
from a universe that has been removed from continuity has the
same effect, of course, but not as strongly as if you keep
seeing *your* characters in back-up strips.)
The situation didn't arise with the Earth-1/Earth-2 split,
because there wasn't really *any* sort of reboot, except
retroactively. The characters who hadn't already dropped by
the wayside were evolved quietly, and by the time the Earth-2
Superman was introduced as a distinct character from the
Justice League member, Silver Age Supes was already accepted
as the "definitive" version.
But if you're introducing a *new* "definitive" Superman, I
suspect you need a better reason *why* he's the main version
and the guy last month isn't than "Because we say so." CoIE
did this by announcing he was the *only* Superman (and, having
announced it loudly enough, were then able to present
subsequent alternate universe versions as varients on *him*,
rather than the previous incarnations). There are probably
other ways of doing it. (One might be to create a version of
the character who actually *is* more interesting and
impressive than the previous version, but, especially given
some of today's writers, it's not one I'd rely on...)
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"The need to compile lists is a personality disorder,
as is the need to assert the superiority of some things
over other things."
-Jeremy Hardy
Ken from Chicago
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> "Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1157867373....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_universe_theory
>> >
>> > The cyclic universe theory is related to the cosmological constant
>>
>> You're turning to superhero stories for astrophysics?
>
> You do know what your link was refering to, don't you???
As a BASIS for talking about cyclical universes that begin and end
frequently, thru Big Bangs / Big Crunches, Brane theory, etc., the precisely
mechanism need not be duplicated to the letter.
IOW, a rebooting superhero universe is "inspired by" the cyclical universe.
Sure it can. DC did the HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE in a TWO-part mini-series
in 1986. Time travel movies can chronicle the lifespan of an entire universe
in two hours. BABYLON 5 covered a million years in a single episode. DOCTOR
WHO travelled to the end of the Earth in a single episode.
The timeframe within a story need not match the publishing timeframe outside
of the story.
> universe's existance. The mechanism for rebooting the universe is not
> big crunch / big bang.
>
> Martin
Yes, they are TOOLS of rebooting a universe. Another tool can be simply time
travel into the past and changing history.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
<tr2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_YVMg.2$_w...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <4gc7g2tuk3kae2270...@4ax.com>,
> Brian Henderson <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>>On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:23:45 -0500, "Ken from Chicago"
>><kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of despair
>>>and
>>>despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say in
>>>driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
>>
>>Because Marvel and DC never learn anything from the reboot, they just
>>go on making the same mistakes over and over and over so that the next
>>reboot down the line becomes necessary. Reboots never improve
>>anything, they just put it back to an earlier time before they've
>>completely screwed up their universe. And the screwing starts anew.
>
> One of the bad things is that on each reboot they go back and retell old
> stories so that you know what happened in the new reality. The problems
> are
Which is what they have been doing already. Superman used to LEAP not fly,
could barely withstand a tank shell blast, the Kents had died, Batman was an
urban legend, Flash's origin was due to an alien named "Mopee", etc.
Sometimes change is bad, sometimes change is good.
Look at the popularity of the ULIMATE line of Marvel comics and ELSEWORLDS,
TANGENT, STAN LEE IMAGINES line of DC comics ... not to mention movie and tv
adaptations.
Same stories, different details.
> that (1) most of the old history is lost each time. (2) They are too
> vague on
> what is and is not included, since DC doesn't know either. (3) Usually the
Lack of planning (see Crisis, re: Immediate aftermath).
new
> version is not as good as the old stories anyway.
Yeah, that's the ticket (see Beauty, re: Beholder).
> Here is what DC should do. Always have a multiverse. Almost every story
> takes
> place in the present and in general don't age any characters. Instead of
> 'rebooting' every 10 or 20 years, add a new universe and announce this
> will be
> the new primary universe. But all the older ones are still around and
> available
> for writers and readers so they can still have new silver age stories,
> golden
> age stories, etc. On the first page or cover of every story put the
> universe
> number (or name). DC probably thinks this would be too confusing but it
> would
> actually be less confusing. The existing readers would understand this
> concept
> pretty easy. And any new readers would understand more easily where their
> new
> comics fit into any past continuity.
Tho that can be tricky (see Spidey, re: Clone).
-- Ken from Chicago (see City, re: Windy)
Tony
ST:TNG, specifically the episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" with the
Enterprise-C and alternate timeline Tasha Yar who gave birth to the half
human/half Romulan Sela in the "proper timeline" of TNG and was a prime
instigator in the Romulan-Klingon.
Guinan, in the alternate timeline, told Picard that things weren't right
and that this timeline was not supposed to be.
Anim8rFSK
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:ANIM8Rfsk-8BAE8...@news.west.cox.net...
> > In article <qcGdnWOvhK5uo57Y...@comcast.com>,
> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
> >>
> > JMS
>
> At least he didn't have Peter killed, raised, depressed and having an S&M
> affair with a vampire.
>
yet
and that's still better than Sins Past.
Anim8rFSK
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
Clearly he should be using The Jetsons.
Anim8rFSK
tr2...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Here is what DC should do. Always have a multiverse. Almost every story
> takes
> place in the present and in general don't age any characters. Instead of
> 'rebooting' every 10 or 20 years, add a new universe and announce this will
> be
> the new primary universe. But all the older ones are still around and
> available
> for writers and readers so they can still have new silver age stories, golden
> age stories, etc. On the first page or cover of every story put the universe
> number (or name). DC probably thinks this would be too confusing but it
> would
> actually be less confusing. The existing readers would understand this
> concept
> pretty easy. And any new readers would understand more easily where their
> new
> comics fit into any past continuity.
And we could call it the pre crisis Silver Age!
Except, there is no hope in crime alley.
Ken from Chicago
You realize that grudges are self-destructive?
-- Ken from Chicago
Brian Henderson
>One of the bad things is that on each reboot they go back and retell old
>stories so that you know what happened in the new reality. The problems are
>that (1) most of the old history is lost each time. (2) They are too vague on
>what is and is not included, since DC doesn't know either. (3) Usually the new
>version is not as good as the old stories anyway.
They're almost certainly not as good as the old universe. What they
need to do is LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES! Actually have EDITORS who
are in charge of making sure writers don't go making massive
continuity errors. You know, like they did back in the days before
they had to reboot the universe once a decade?
Martin Phipps
> "Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1157897410.8...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> "Martin Phipps" <martin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1157867373....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_universe_theory
> >> >
> >> > The cyclic universe theory is related to the cosmological constant
> >>
> >> You're turning to superhero stories for astrophysics?
> >
> > You do know what your link was refering to, don't you???
>
> As a BASIS for talking about cyclical universes that begin and end
> frequently, thru Big Bangs / Big Crunches, Brane theory, etc., the precisely
> mechanism need not be duplicated to the letter.
In your original post, you seemed to be implying that it was the
mechanism that Marvel and DC were using to do their reboots.
Martin
Ken from Chicago
I don't give a rat's crap HOW the reboot is done. Big Crunch, Big Bang, Time
Travel, Magic, Power Cosmic, Wile E. Coyote's Acme Black Hole projector
screws up, Kryptonian punch-drunk mad at reality, whatever.
Frankly if a variety of methods are used... all the better.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Back when the reboot was once every other decade? or previous stories were
simply ignore since they were "kiddie" "funnybooks"?
That said, yes, editors who are BACKED by TPTB when editors make a call
based on quality--or lack thereof--would be a marked improvement. Tho I'm
sure some will complain editors are being overly critical anal-retentive
gatekeepers keeping out fresh ideas ... that they just so happen to be
submitting.
-- Ken from Chicago
Lilith
But if there's a variety of methods available then everyone will be
using them. Why, just the other day this guy I work with pulled out
this silver briefcase where he stored his collector's Black Hole(tm)
and began to twist it first this way and then that......
... and they all lived happily ever after.
--
Lilith (still)(I think)
Martin Phipps
>
> But if there's a variety of methods available then everyone will be
> using them. Why, just the other day this guy I work with pulled out
> this silver briefcase where he stored his collector's Black Hole(tm)
> and began to twist it first this way and then that......
>
> ... and they all lived happily ever after.
"Superman, what I have in my hand are two pills. Take the blue pill
and everything continues as before: your marriage to Lois, your job at
the Daily Planet and everything else, but take the red pill and the
world might be completely different from what it was before and you
won't even remember things the way they were."
Martin
Ken from Chicago
"Lilith" <lil...@dcccd.edu> wrote in message
news:mj89g2h05bgu1t5cj...@4ax.com...
But we know cosmic events realign roughly every decade our time to allow for
a proper reboot. Before then, events will occur to prevent a full-fledged
reboot occur, much as the multiverse prevents paradoxes by branching off
changing to the timeline into another universe.
-- Ken from Chicago
Anim8rFSK
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:ANIM8Rfsk-A8B71...@news.west.cox.net...
> > In article <y-6dncB0CL2cQJ7Y...@comcast.com>,
> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> "Anim8rFSK" <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >> news:ANIM8Rfsk-8BAE8...@news.west.cox.net...
> >> > In article <qcGdnWOvhK5uo57Y...@comcast.com>,
> >> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> >> And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
> >> >>
> >> > JMS
> >>
> >> At least he didn't have Peter killed, raised, depressed and having an S&M
> >> affair with a vampire.
> >>
> > yet
> >
> >
> >
> > and that's still better than Sins Past.
>
> You realize that grudges are self-destructive?
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
As long as I take him with me.
Tue Sorensen
> Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of despair and
> despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say in
> driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
>
> *** USE *** THE REBOOT.
>
Alright, I am now completely convinced that you are on the payroll of
TPTB!
- Tue
Ken from Chicago
"Tue Sorensen" <soren...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157972775.8...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
No, they were killed in ANGEL's season one finale.
-- Ken from Chicago
Brian Henderson
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Back when the reboot was once every other decade? or previous stories were
>simply ignore since they were "kiddie" "funnybooks"?
No, back in the day when Marvel wasn't terrified of a book getting to
100 issues ("Holy crap, that's too many issues! REBOOT! Reset to #1
and start over!"). Then again, that was the day when Marvel didn't
have 47 books for every character to keep track of either.
>That said, yes, editors who are BACKED by TPTB when editors make a call
>based on quality--or lack thereof--would be a marked improvement. Tho I'm
>sure some will complain editors are being overly critical anal-retentive
>gatekeepers keeping out fresh ideas ... that they just so happen to be
>submitting.
Now, the so-called editors live in fear of the overpaid "professional"
talent who can't be bothered to know anything about what they're
writing. They should read Spider-Man before writing it? THE HORROR!
They should respect continuity? WHAT THE HELL? Come on, comics today
are very little more than "kiddie" "funnybooks" but they're really not
that funny. They're yet another symptom of the pathetic American
short attention span. Who the hell can remember what happened last
week much less last issue?
Ken from Chicago
Doesn't stop them for producing stories that take six-months to
tell--assuming they keep their monthly schedule.
-- Ken from Chicago
Astrobiochemist
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> "Tue Sorensen" <soren...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1157972775.8...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of despair
> >> and
> >> despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say in
> >> driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
> >>
> >> *** USE *** THE REBOOT.
> >>
> >> "Master the reboot or it will master you."
> >
> > Alright, I am now completely convinced that you are on the payroll of
> > TPTB!
>
The TPTB (yes, I know, that is two "the"s) in Angel were around until
the fourth season. The characters killed in the season one finale were
some sort of omniscient beings with a link to the TPTB.
Ken from Chicago
"Astrobiochemist" <CCSB...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157996707....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You're right--partially
While I was wrong--totally.
I'm thinking of the Oracles. TPTB (single "the") aka "the Powers", were
around in the 5th season. They brought Cordy back for one final favor.
-- Ken from Chicago
Astrobiochemist
> >> >> despair
> >> >> and
> >> >> despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they say
> >> >> in
> >> >> driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
> >> >>
> >> >> *** USE *** THE REBOOT.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Master the reboot or it will master you."
> >> >
> >> > Alright, I am now completely convinced that you are on the payroll of
> >> > TPTB!
> >>
> >> No, they were killed in ANGEL's season one finale.
> >
> > The TPTB (yes, I know, that is two "the"s) in Angel were around until
> > the fourth season. The characters killed in the season one finale were
> > some sort of omniscient beings with a link to the TPTB.
>
> You're right--partially
> While I was wrong--totally.
>
> I'm thinking of the Oracles. TPTB (single "the") aka "the Powers", were
> around in the 5th season. They brought Cordy back for one final favor.
It just seems like it should be "the TPTB" rather than "TPTP," although
that makes no sense. (There is a Dilber that talks about "The TTR
Report." Apparently TTR stands for "The TTR Report.").
Anyway, after it turned out that TPTB plan was to use Jasmine and
Jasmine was defeated, it certainly was the end of TPTB for the most
part. In fact, the season 5 episode with Cordelia didn't even feel
like TPTB were involved in bringing her back, as it didn't seem to fit
with what we learned was the true nature of TPTB (that they were
actually not nice people).
Ken from Chicago
>> >> >> Instead of ducking and dodging, zigging and zagging, instead of
>> >> >> despair
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> despondency over the Reboot, dive right for it, full tilt, as they
>> >> >> say
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> driver's education, turn INTO the skid.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> *** USE *** THE REBOOT.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Master the reboot or it will master you."
>> >> >
>> >> > Alright, I am now completely convinced that you are on the payroll
>> >> > of
>> >> > TPTB!
>> >>
>> >> No, they were killed in ANGEL's season one finale.
>> >
>> > The TPTB (yes, I know, that is two "the"s) in Angel were around until
>> > the fourth season. The characters killed in the season one finale were
>> > some sort of omniscient beings with a link to the TPTB.
>>
>> You're right--partially
>> While I was wrong--totally.
>>
>> I'm thinking of the Oracles. TPTB (single "the") aka "the Powers", were
>> around in the 5th season. They brought Cordy back for one final favor.
>
> It just seems like it should be "the TPTB" rather than "TPTP," although
TPTB = The Powers That Be. Or you could do like Cordy did and refer to them
as "the PTB". I can see your preference for the latter when making the
reference verbally, but in writing, the grammatically correct form would be
if you use "TPTB" then you do NOT prepend a "the" to it.
> that makes no sense. (There is a Dilber that talks about "The TTR
> Report." Apparently TTR stands for "The TTR Report.").
Would you prefer "DC Comics"?
> Anyway, after it turned out that TPTB plan was to use Jasmine and
> Jasmine was defeated, it certainly was the end of TPTB for the most
> part. In fact, the season 5 episode with Cordelia didn't even feel
> like TPTB were involved in bringing her back, as it didn't seem to fit
> with what we learned was the true nature of TPTB (that they were
> actually not nice people).
Nope. Jasmine was a rebel. She was a "higher being" who ostensibly wanted to
save humanity because TPTB would not or would rarely act directly. At least
that's her story.
-- Ken from Chicago
Astrobiochemist
Like I said, it's completely wrong. It just feels like it needs a
"the," even though it already has it.
>
> > that makes no sense. (There is a Dilber that talks about "The TTR
> > Report." Apparently TTR stands for "The TTR Report.").
>
> Would you prefer "DC Comics"?
Yeah, that one's a hoot.
>
> > Anyway, after it turned out that TPTB plan was to use Jasmine and
> > Jasmine was defeated, it certainly was the end of TPTB for the most
> > part. In fact, the season 5 episode with Cordelia didn't even feel
> > like TPTB were involved in bringing her back, as it didn't seem to fit
> > with what we learned was the true nature of TPTB (that they were
> > actually not nice people).
>
> Nope. Jasmine was a rebel. She was a "higher being" who ostensibly wanted to
> save humanity because TPTB would not or would rarely act directly. At least
> that's her story.
Skip, the good whatever-demon that helped Cordy and Angel a couple of
times was also in on it so that made me think that they were all part
of the scheme. Also, since TPTB never contacted Angel ever again
(except for the Cordelia episode, and then, never again), it seems like
they were no longer active, as they were defeated.
Tim Turnip
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Look, we all know every decade or so TPTB (The Publishers That Be) will push
>the reset button. At least the Big Two will. We know the DC and Marvel
>universes are really cyclical universes.
Ken, I truly think you're on to something. After all, the DC universe
"rebooted" in a sense way back in 1956 when a second Flash appeared,
from the getgo by definition in a different reality from the previous.
More to the point, times and culture change, and writers must adapt to
that, as well as somehow get around the beguiling paradox that time
must pass, but (generally) characters must not age. To this end, I
think the cyclical reboot may be an innate solution.
To offer hope, there are signs that DC is getting better at it. The
current policy, as I understand it, is that 'everything that has
happened, has happened' -- and how the kinks work out is completely up
to any given story. That is, at any rate, at least an attempt to
smooth out the reboots of the past.
>I'd like to take credit for this idea, however, IT ALREADY EXISTS. DC has
>published something akin to this over a decade ago.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunk_(comics)
>
>http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=chunk
>
>And for Marvel it's the basis for one of their biggest villains:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactus#Rebirth
*And* they used it quite naturally in telling the saga of Ragnarok's
endless cycle of destruction and rebirth, with renewed pantheons, in
the pages of Thor.
Ken from Chicago
news:himcg2l1di8m85bpj...@4ax.com...
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA reimagined also has this concept, "this has all
happened before and will all happen again".
-- Ken from Chicago