Donna Troy/Rann-Thanagar War/Adam Strange: Bad Mini-Series Trend (Spoilers)
badth...@yahoo.com
one, which I think has been retconned out of existence, because the
last I remember, Alana died giving birth. Then again, her father is a
brilliant scientist, and if Iris West's parents can save her from
certain death, I'm sure he could bring her back somehow. In any case,
that's enough spoiler space.
What the fuck is up with DC and the non-endings of these mini-series!?!
By fucking defintion a mini-series is finite, meaning it should have a
beginning, a middle and a fucking end. And I'm sorry if I'm a little
profane, but neither Adam Strange, Rann-Thanagar War or The Return of
Donna Tory had an ending. Adam Strange was the most complete of them
all, but still led into the Rann-Thanagar war which, like The Return of
Donna Troy flat out has no ending and is just one big precursor to
Infinite Crisis.
I'm glad I never read Villains United or Day of Vengeance, because I
fear this this is pretty much a company wide trend and I feel for any
of you who got to the last page of the last issue...only to be told it
continues elsewhere. Where the hell is Mark Waid to apologize to me
for this!?! I never would have bought into this had I known there
wouldn't be a definitive end to the story, but there's no way I can
know there's a definitive end until I get the last issue...where the
last page reads "HA! GOT YOU, CHUMP! YOU HAVE TO BUY INFINITE CRISIS
IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW THIS ENDS!"
No matter what Waid says or what happens after Infinite Crisis I feel
the bitter taste DC has left in mouths of readers like myself with
stunts like this will permanently cost them in the end.
Mike
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128570969....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Devlin Tay
Infinite Crisis" mini-series (5 if you count Donna Troy as well) would end
i.e. we expected them not to end at all, but instead to lead into the REAL
deal i.e. Infinite Crisis. Which is not to say you're wrong to feel
cheated - what I'm saying is, you should have expected as much. What I find
more annoying is the sudden announcement that in addition to Infinite
Crisis, we're also expected to fork out additional money for the 4 Countdown
specials that supposedly bridge the Countdown mini-series with Infinite
Crisis - ain't that what the damnable Countdown mini-series were supposed to
be for? Why announce 6-issue minis when they will, in fact, turn out to be
7-issue minis? And then there's that whole 52 weeks thing .... the whole
thing is turning out to be one massive money grubbing exercise...
Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
SyVyN11
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128575554.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> But preludes without endings? Did everyone but me know that? If so,
> how'd you find out?
www.newsarama.com
www.comicon.com/pulse
and many others including Diamond Previews.
>
badth...@yahoo.com
Rann-Thanagar War and after the non-ending of Adam Strange was
expecting something of an ending this time and got...nothing. Same
with The Return of Donna Troy. If I weren't enjoying it so much, I
wouldn't be quite as pissed. But I guess it's "fool me once shame on
you; fool me twice, shame on me." And three times actually.
Still, if a book's cover reads "4 of 4" then I'm within my rights to
expect that story to have something of a conclusion and not have "to be
continued" on the last page. How can they collect Rann-Thanagar as TPB
when the last page has that?
Tony
badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I really enjoyed the Adamn Strange mini-series. But I enjoyed the last
> one, which I think has been retconned out of existence, because the
> last I remember, Alana died giving birth. Then again, her father is a
> brilliant scientist, and if Iris West's parents can save her from
> certain death, I'm sure he could bring her back somehow. In any case,
> that's enough spoiler space.
>
> What the fuck is up with DC and the non-endings of these mini-series!?!
> By fucking defintion a mini-series is finite, meaning it should have a
> beginning, a middle and a fucking end. And I'm sorry if I'm a little
> profane, but neither Adam Strange, Rann-Thanagar War or The Return of
> Donna Tory had an ending. Adam Strange was the most complete of them
> all, but still led into the Rann-Thanagar war which, like The Return of
> Donna Troy flat out has no ending and is just one big precursor to
> Infinite Crisis.
--all the other Prelude to Infinite Crisis minis I'll give you, but
"Return of Donna Troy" had a very clear ending. The basic thrust of
the mini was "the Titans and Outsiders join forces to rescue Donna and
help her end the threat of the Titans of Myth." That's exactly what
happened. By the end of the mini, they'd rescued Donna, and the menace
of the Titans was over. That mini really ended on the second to last
page. The last page is what connects the mini to Infinite Crisis.
The other titles don't resolve the basic conflicts (I'm not sure how
Villains United will end, but I don't expect much; sorry Gail). Day of
Vengeance ended pretty much as it began...the Spectre was still running
rampant trying to destroy all magic. So we essentially got a waste of
6 issues. The end of the Rann/Thanagar War saw Rann and Thangar still
at war, despite the destruction of Onimar Synn. And the OMAC Project
didn't eliminate the threats of either the army of OMACS and Brother
Eye.
Despite my enjoyment of those minis, I'm very much let down that the
thrust of each of them is not resolved.
> I'm glad I never read Villains United or Day of Vengeance, because I
> fear this this is pretty much a company wide trend and I feel for any
> of you who got to the last page of the last issue...only to be told it
> continues elsewhere.
--dude, Villains United is the *one* you should have bought. It's been
my pick for most entertaining (even though I love Donna, that book was
weighed down by all the exposition and dialogue).
Tony
YKW '05
someone claiming to be badth...@yahoo.com spooned up the following and
ladled it out into rec.arts.comics.dc.universe's bowl:
These minis were =always= solicited as leading directly into Infinite
Crisis. More recently, four of the five minis have had follow-ups
announced that tie up any storylines that IC proper does not (presumably
-- as I haven't picked up DC Special 4 yet -- the Donna Troy story is one
of central importance to IC and won't need resolution elsewhere), so
you'll be able to ignore the biggest DC event in two decades if you
really want to.....
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
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|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
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charles...@gmail.com
That's not strictly true and seems to be an acceptance of the
revisionist history that seems to be appearing around this event. The
original tale is that they were planning to do all of those mini-series
anyway (plus a fifth one called Amazons Attacks or something like
that). Then they decided to tie them into IC - this is where the
revision comes in.
If you look at the early puff pieces that pass for interviews, the DC
editoral team talk about ONE of the mini-series tying into IC but not
revealing which one. I think that's actually still the same plan but
the interest in the mini-series gives DC a license to extend the
mini-series into the specials (and to add further crossovers).
Sean Walsh
> I really enjoyed the Adamn Strange mini-series. But I enjoyed the last
> one, which I think has been retconned out of existence, because the
> last I remember, Alana died giving birth. Then again, her father is a
> brilliant scientist, and if Iris West's parents can save her from
> certain death, I'm sure he could bring her back somehow. In any case,
> that's enough spoiler space.
Well, I'll only reply to this bit (since no one else really has):
Alanna was brought back in Waid's early JLA run (a few issues during
Morrison's run on the title). It was revealed that the Alanna who died
wasn't Alanna; the real one was in fact a prisoner of some alien race
looking to conquer Rann and had Adam basically do it for them by
threatening to kill her. Or something like that.
--
Sean
Len-L
>But preludes without endings? Did everyone but me know that? If so,
>how'd you find out?
I think the blurbs that said "leads into Infinte Crisis" were the give
away.
badth...@yahoo.com
Sean MacDonald
Tony wrote:
>
> --all the other Prelude to Infinite Crisis minis I'll give you, but
> "Return of Donna Troy" had a very clear ending.
I agree. The others (with Villains United's final issue yet to be seen)
were deeply unsatisfying. I'm beginning to think that today's comic
writers don't have the first clue about how to write a finite story,
with beginning, middle, and end. I used to think that they just didn't
know how to fit such a story in a single issue, but these preludes to
IC have made me think that might not even know how to end a story at
all, no matter how many issues they have.
But, on the bright side, each series had a "mini-ending" if not a real
ending.
Rann-Thanagar War's mini-ending: defeat of Onimar Synn, if not the
ending of the war. (Although, strangely, Synn was harder to defeat than
last time. If I remember right, last time, Hawkman and Hawkgirl just
had to say they loved each other and Synn crumbled to dust. I wonder
why they didn't try that this time?)
Day of Vengeance's mini-ending: defeat of Eclipso, if not the Spectre.
OMAC's mini-ending: defeat of some OMACs but not all the OMACs.
Villains United's mini-ending: I don't know yet, but if it fits the
pattern, it would be something like, "They defeat one (or maybe two or
three) of the villains but not all of them."
Oddly, the only one of these (Donna Troy) that didn't label itself as
an IC prelude is the only one to have some sort of ending.
badth...@yahoo.com
digging in the closet.
Mike
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128575554.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Daibhid Ceanaideach
news:1128576331.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
I see your point. I was kinda expecting this (I've been told
the 7 Soldiers books do the same thing), but it reminds me of
those "Star Trek: Gateway" novels a few years back. Each of
them (one for each series) ended on a cliffhanger, and the
last chapters were collected as the final volume. I don't
believe it said this anywhere on the covers.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
"So if ye're an alien, how come ye've got a Southern accent?"
"Lots of planets have a South, Jamie."
-Conversations that never happened, no. 3
Brian
"Daibhid Ceanaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96E7BD37...@130.133.1.4...
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1128576331.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> You're right. I am overreacting. It's just that I was
>> enjoying Rann-Thanagar War and after the non-ending of Adam
>> Strange was expecting something of an ending this time and
>> got...nothing. Same with The Return of Donna Troy. If I
>> weren't enjoying it so much, I wouldn't be quite as pissed.
>> But I guess it's "fool me once shame on you; fool me
>> twice, shame on me." And three times actually.
>>
>> Still, if a book's cover reads "4 of 4" then I'm within my
>> rights to expect that story to have something of a
>> conclusion and not have "to be continued" on the last page.
>> How can they collect Rann-Thanagar as TPB when the last
>> page has that?
>>
>
> I see your point. I was kinda expecting this (I've been told
> the 7 Soldiers books do the same thing), but it reminds me of
> those "Star Trek: Gateway" novels a few years back. Each of
> them (one for each series) ended on a cliffhanger, and the
> last chapters were collected as the final volume. I don't
> believe it said this anywhere on the covers.
7 Soldiers is its own animal. Completely different. Seven 4 issue
mini-series that interlock but can be read independently. You get a better
picture if you read all of the minis, but each tells its own story. Each of
the seven lead into a final bookend. This was announced when the Seven
Soldiers was first solicited though.
Brian
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128576331.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I agree about Adam Strange. It started coming out before anyone knew about
Infinite Crisis. I thought it was going to be its own story and was
disappointed that it led into Rann-Thanagar war. I will say that it does
have an ending of sorts though.
The preludes do not. The reason why that doesn't bother me as much is that
I knew that they would continue in Infinite Crisis because that was how they
were solicited.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
news:us6dnVBS0L2...@comcast.com:
>
> "Daibhid Ceanaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns96E7BD37...@130.133.1.4...
>> I see your point. I was kinda expecting this (I've been
>> told the 7 Soldiers books do the same thing), but it
>> reminds me of those "Star Trek: Gateway" novels a few
>> years back. Each of them (one for each series) ended on a
>> cliffhanger, and the last chapters were collected as the
>> final volume. I don't believe it said this anywhere on the
>> covers.
>
> 7 Soldiers is its own animal. Completely different. Seven
> 4 issue mini-series that interlock but can be read
> independently. You get a better picture if you read all of
> the minis, but each tells its own story. Each of the seven
> lead into a final bookend. This was announced when the
> Seven Soldiers was first solicited though.
Was it? Fair enough then. I recall them saying that they could
all be read independently, and I interpreted that as covering
the finale as well, although now I think about it, I'm not
sure how that would work...
Glennsim
to lead into Infinite Crisis, I did rather expect more of the central
conflict to be resolved.
Spoilers below.
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I mean, I sorta expected this crew to stop the Spectre, only to find
out that Eclipso had escaped, with the Eclipso battle taking place in
Infinite Crisis, or something like that.
Dan McEwen
news:1128570969....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> I'm glad I never read Villains United or Day of Vengeance, because I
> fear this this is pretty much a company wide trend and I feel for any
> of you who got to the last page of the last issue...only to be told it
> continues elsewhere. Where the hell is Mark Waid to apologize to me
> for this!?! I never would have bought into this had I known there
> wouldn't be a definitive end to the story, but there's no way I can
> know there's a definitive end until I get the last issue...where the
> last page reads "HA! GOT YOU, CHUMP! YOU HAVE TO BUY INFINITE CRISIS
> IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW THIS ENDS!"
You don't have to read IC. I've dropped mini's mid-stream and found out
on rac* how they ended. However, DC made it clear that most of these
(except Donna Troy) were lead-ins to IC. The same thing has actually
been going on in Seven Soliders - you have to read the book-ends to get
the ending for each mini.
Dan McEwen
news:Fg21f.2978$R4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> These minis were Preludes to Infinite Crisis. Everyone knew that.
Yeah, but they were also billed as mini-series'. The implication is
that they are stories unto themselves, even if there are repercussions
in other books.
Dan McEwen
> 7 Soldiers is its own animal. Completely different. Seven 4 issue
> mini-series that interlock but can be read independently. You get a
> better picture if you read all of the minis, but each tells its own
> story. Each of the seven lead into a final bookend. This was
> announced when the Seven Soldiers was first solicited though.
Theoretically true, but not actual fact. Each mini ends with a "to be
continued" for SS #1.
Jeg7777
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> But preludes without endings? Did everyone but me know that? If so,
> how'd you find out?
I'd say the Return of Donna Troy had an ending: at the end of it, Donna Troy
had indeed returned. It doesn't bother me that there was a tacked-on bit
leading into Infinite Crisis. I don't think it would bother me even if I
didn't plan to buy IC.
--
Joe
"Why can't they have gay people in the army? Personally, I think they're
just afraid of a thousand gay guys with M16s, going "Who'd you call a
faggot?" - Jon Stewart
Stephen Bayer
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> But preludes without endings?
A prelude, by definition, is an introduction to a larger composition or
story, you moron.
Time to change your diaper.
Mikel Midnight
<ferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 7 Soldiers is its own animal. Completely different. Seven 4 issue
> > mini-series that interlock but can be read independently. You get a
> > better picture if you read all of the minis, but each tells its own
> > story. Each of the seven lead into a final bookend. This was
> > announced when the Seven Soldiers was first solicited though.
>
> Theoretically true, but not actual fact. Each mini ends with a "to be
> continued" for SS #1.
I am enjoying the series and intend to collect them ... but you are
correct. I was under the impression that each 4-issue series would be
properly self-contained and not end on a cliffhanger. I found that
disappointing (as was ZATANNA #3, solely because I don't think it made
any sense if you haven't read SHINING KNIGHT).
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Mikel Midnight
"You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the
pox." (John Montagu, fourth Earl of Sandwich)
"That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles
or your mistress." (John Wilkes, sometime friend of his
and rakish member of the aristocracy)
blak...@blaklion.best.vwh.net
_______________________________________http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/comics.html
Sean
>thing is turning out to be one massive money grubbing exercise...
Much like the publishing business, eh?
Sean R-B
Martin Feller
"Mikel Midnight" <blak...@best.outdamnspam.com> wrote in message
news:061020052211441214%blak...@best.outdamnspam.com...
> In article <3qlu65F...@individual.net>, Dan McEwen
> <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > 7 Soldiers is its own animal. Completely different. Seven 4
>> > issue
>> > mini-series that interlock but can be read independently. You
>> > get a
>> > better picture if you read all of the minis, but each tells its
>> > own
>> > story. Each of the seven lead into a final bookend. This was
>> > announced when the Seven Soldiers was first solicited though.
>>
>> Theoretically true, but not actual fact. Each mini ends with a "to
>> be
>> continued" for SS #1.
>
> I am enjoying the series and intend to collect them ... but you are
> correct. I was under the impression that each 4-issue series would
> be
> properly self-contained and not end on a cliffhanger. I found that
> disappointing (as was ZATANNA #3, solely because I don't think it
> made
> any sense if you haven't read SHINING KNIGHT).
Did you think that having not read Shining Knight, or are you miffed
for some other hypothetical reader?
Dan McEwen
> I am enjoying the series and intend to collect them ... but you are
> correct. I was under the impression that each 4-issue series would be
> properly self-contained and not end on a cliffhanger. I found that
> disappointing (as was ZATANNA #3, solely because I don't think it made
> any sense if you haven't read SHINING KNIGHT).
Are you sure this is true of Zatanna or do you merely think so because
you've read Shining Knight? It could be that layers are added by
reading SK but aren't necessary for reading Z.
Mike
> >the whole
>>thing is turning out to be one massive money grubbing exercise...
What do you suggest? They come up with stories they think are great, but
they SHOULDN'T publish them because YOu can't afford to buy them?
Mikel Midnight
<ferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am enjoying the series and intend to collect them ... but you are
> > correct. I was under the impression that each 4-issue series would be
> > properly self-contained and not end on a cliffhanger. I found that
> > disappointing (as was ZATANNA #3, solely because I don't think it made
> > any sense if you haven't read SHINING KNIGHT).
>
> Are you sure this is true of Zatanna or do you merely think so because
> you've read Shining Knight? It could be that layers are added by
> reading SK but aren't necessary for reading Z.
I admit, I am projecting.
Devlin Tay
"Mike" <woofh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:lxQ1f.9343$2F2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the current DC
strategy involving "Infinite Crisis" is almost akin to what happened 10
years ago with multiple covers and various gimmicks used to generate sales.
It could alienate some readers, especially those with limited budgets.
Consider this: originally we were told the Countdown/Prelude to Infinite
Crisis would consist of 4 mini-series. This later turned out to be 5 (The
Return of Donna Troy arguably being THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE but was not
marketed as such). The 4 mini-series were supposed to be all we'd need to
lead into Infinite Crisis. This later expanded into lots of other titles,
not to mention the climax of OMAC itself occurred off the mini-series
itself, in "Sacrifice" (running thru Superman books and ending in Wonder
Woman). Plus, the actual "prelude" into Crisis happened in JLA's "Crisis of
Conscience" (explosion of the Watchtower on the Moon being the herald that
"Infinite Crisis" has finally arrived). And then, horrors! The four
6-issue Prelude/Countdown mini-series mysteriously turned into 7-issues,
with the announcement of the one-shots to bridge the minis with "Infinite
Crisis" - and presumably the TPBs for the 4 minis coming out next month
would still be reprinting only the 6-issues, which means any buyer of the
TPBs will also have to fork out money for the one-shots as well. Plus the
Perez/Wolfman Secret Files. And "Infinite Crisis" will then expand into
"One Year Later" and "52". All of which seems to be a massive overkill -
some readers will be driven off simply because they either cannot keep up
(for budget reasons) or they get sick and cynical of the entire exercise.
Of course, all the above will be moot point if "Infinite Crisis" does turn
out to be a classic like COIE. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a hat
trick.
Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
Devlin Tay
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the current DC
Pudde Fjord
As I remember it, they said that Countdown to Inf. C. Would "Continue in
three mini-series *and throughout the DC Universe*", which actually
happened. They said that *one* of the miniseries (probably "Omac") would
be crucial to Inf. C. They didn't say that this would be the *only* one.
I agree with your feeling that these mini-series are left incomplete,
but what do you expect when they are counting down to a special event?
That event *has* to be the climax.
The Specials for the mini-series are really *part* of this event, but if
they use this to conclude the various plot points, then I'm all for it.
At least you can get the finish of whatever series you bought/read.
Of course I'm making a *good* spin on this, but also keep in mind that
neither of us have seen the issues yet, and that the whole thing are
*supposed* to be a part of a larger whole. That was clear from the start.
Pudde.
Shawn H
: Donna Tory had an ending. Adam Strange was the most complete of them
: all, but still led into the Rann-Thanagar war which, like The Return of
: Donna Troy flat out has no ending and is just one big precursor to
: Infinite Crisis.
Well, she got rid of the Titans of Legend, they were the major
antagonists of the series. And regained her memories. It had a
continuation, but I did feel like it concluded.
: I'm glad I never read Villains United or Day of Vengeance, because I
: fear this this is pretty much a company wide trend and I feel for any
: of you who got to the last page of the last issue...only to be told it
: continues elsewhere. Where the hell is Mark Waid to apologize to me
Isn't that what comic books do?
: for this!?! I never would have bought into this had I known there
: wouldn't be a definitive end to the story, but there's no way I can
: know there's a definitive end until I get the last issue...where the
: last page reads "HA! GOT YOU, CHUMP! YOU HAVE TO BUY INFINITE CRISIS
: IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW THIS ENDS!"
: No matter what Waid says or what happens after Infinite Crisis I feel
: the bitter taste DC has left in mouths of readers like myself with
: stunts like this will permanently cost them in the end.
Has it ever before?
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: "Mike" <woofh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in
: news:Fg21f.2978$R4.4...@news20.bellglobal.com:
The two I'm reading have offered complete stories (Donna Troy, and it
looks like the major battle of Villains United will be resolved with a
big reveal this week). Apparently Rann/Thanagar War and Day of Vengeance
were less clear, but I avoided those.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: Mikel Midnight <blak...@best.outdamnspam.com> wrote in
: news:061020052211441214%blak...@best.outdamnspam.com:
Didn't read Shining Knight. Enjoying Zatanna. Don't feel like I missed
anything.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: Crisis would consist of 4 mini-series. This later turned out to be 5 (The
: Return of Donna Troy arguably being THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE but was not
: marketed as such). The 4 mini-series were supposed to be all we'd need to
The first issue of Donna Troy was marketed as significantly collectible,
which seemed to confuse a lot of people.
: lead into Infinite Crisis. This later expanded into lots of other titles,
: not to mention the climax of OMAC itself occurred off the mini-series
: itself, in "Sacrifice" (running thru Superman books and ending in Wonder
: Woman). Plus, the actual "prelude" into Crisis happened in JLA's "Crisis of
Yes, that was lame, and it tricked me into buying an issue of Action,
too.
: TPBs will also have to fork out money for the one-shots as well. Plus the
: Perez/Wolfman Secret Files. And "Infinite Crisis" will then expand into
Are Secret Files EVER crucial?
: "One Year Later" and "52". All of which seems to be a massive overkill -
: some readers will be driven off simply because they either cannot keep up
: (for budget reasons) or they get sick and cynical of the entire exercise.
But others might just keep buying the issues they like and skipping the
rest, regardless.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: at war, despite the destruction of Onimar Synn. And the OMAC Project
: didn't eliminate the threats of either the army of OMACS and Brother
: Eye.
: Despite my enjoyment of those minis, I'm very much let down that the
: thrust of each of them is not resolved.
But it did take out Maxwell Lord, and change things for Sasha Bordeaux.
: --dude, Villains United is the *one* you should have bought. It's been
: my pick for most entertaining (even though I love Donna, that book was
: weighed down by all the exposition and dialogue).
The final issue was much better and more readable, though. And I do have
faith that VU#6 will rock!
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: Villains United's mini-ending: I don't know yet, but if it fits the
: pattern, it would be something like, "They defeat one (or maybe two or
: three) of the villains but not all of them."
Ah, but who are "they" and who are "the villains?" This book has a
suicide squad sort of feel to me; I expect massive betrayal and defeat
for the protagonists, I just hope it's entertaining.
: Oddly, the only one of these (Donna Troy) that didn't label itself as
: an IC prelude is the only one to have some sort of ending.
She's Harbinger! Now what does that make Power Girl?
Shawn H.
Oruncrest
@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu:
> She's Harbinger! Now what does that make Power Girl?
Lady Quark!
Devlin Tay
"Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
> Are Secret Files EVER crucial?
Well, if you are a completist, this one seems to be. It's supposed to
provide the definitive link from COIE to Infinite Crisis and also provide
the definitive explanation for the anomalies in DCU that we've seen since
COIE. So it serves as a bridge between the two Crises - plus it will be the
work of the guys who gave us the original Crisis in the first place, so this
will probably be high on the list of any Infinite Crisis readers.
Devlin
Adelaide, Australia
Shawn H
: "Shawn H" <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
Or it could be another footnote, like the other "original" Crisis sequels
have been. They've trumpeted this horn before, but seldom caught the
magic in a bottle again.
Shawn H.
Dan McEwen
I'm not overly hung up on it because I'm going to read IC anyway, but I
do see that complaints as valid. And, as others have said. Donna Troy
wasn't billed as an IC book.
Dan McEwen
Shining Knight was well worth the read, but this was true of all of the
SS books. I do hope you read Mister Miracle #1 because it was
fantastic.
Dan McEwen
Kara Zor-L?
Pudde Fjord
> Are Secret Files EVER crucial?
>
I seem to remember that some of the SF has given background stories that
explains what *really* happen in the main comics. I can't give examples
at the moment, have to dig through a lot of boxes to find them...
Mostly, they just have character background stuff and a story featuring
bits and pieces about the main comic.
Pudde.
bllbickel
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote in
> news:1128576331.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > You're right. I am overreacting. It's just that I was
> > enjoying Rann-Thanagar War and after the non-ending of Adam
> > Strange was expecting something of an ending this time and
> > got...nothing. Same with The Return of Donna Troy. If I
> > weren't enjoying it so much, I wouldn't be quite as pissed.
> > But I guess it's "fool me once shame on you; fool me
> > twice, shame on me." And three times actually.
> >
> > Still, if a book's cover reads "4 of 4" then I'm within my
> > rights to expect that story to have something of a
> > conclusion and not have "to be continued" on the last page.
> > How can they collect Rann-Thanagar as TPB when the last
> > page has that?
> >
>
> I see your point. I was kinda expecting this (I've been told
> the 7 Soldiers books do the same thing), but it reminds me of
> those "Star Trek: Gateway" novels a few years back. Each of
> them (one for each series) ended on a cliffhanger, and the
> last chapters were collected as the final volume. I don't
> believe it said this anywhere on the covers.
I don't remember what the covers said, but I do remember having been
aware from the git-go that all the Gateway novels would be concluded in
the final volume. Maybe it just seemed apparent that this was a
miniseries that would logically conclude in a final volume.
(though if, at the end of that final volume, we were informed that it
STILL wasn't over, that would have been something else)
It did bug me that all the regular Gateway novels were paperbacks while
the final volume was a $25 hardcover -- though it probably would have
bugged me more if I hadn't been able to find a comfortable seat in
Barnes and Noble and read that final volume for free.
Bill Bickel
http://www.comicsidontunderstand.com
http://mysterybooks.allinfoabout.com
http://www.crimepundit.com
Shawn H
: Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in
: news:digr56$27q$6...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu:
: > Didn't read Shining Knight. Enjoying Zatanna. Don't feel like I missed
: > anything.
: Shining Knight was well worth the read, but this was true of all of the
: SS books. I do hope you read Mister Miracle #1 because it was
: fantastic.
Art was horrible, that's a big turn-off for me. I'm taking Grant at his
word that I only have to read the ones I want to.
Shawn H.
Mark J. Reed
>Dan McEwen <ferr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>: Shawn H <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in
>: news:digr56$27q$6...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu:
>: > Didn't read Shining Knight. Enjoying Zatanna. Don't feel like I missed
>: > anything.
>: Shining Knight was well worth the read, but this was true of all of the
>: SS books. I do hope you read Mister Miracle #1 because it was
>: fantastic.
I was expecting it to be Scott Free, and when it wasn't, I didn't pick it up.
What happened to Scott?
Tim Turnip
Not sure whether you're referring to Shining Knight or Mister Miracle,
but I'm a little amazed at your comment about the art either way. I
admit that different folks like different strokes, but in my opinion,
the artists on both minis (Bianchi and Ferry respectively, both
European newcomers coincidentally) delivered dazzling, visually
sumptious work that I've never seen the like of before and which made
me instant fans of both artists. This is the first time I've even
heard either of them panned, in fact. Maybe I'm just curious which
one it was you didn't like so I can properly defend whoever it was.
:-)
(Ferry's work on the Adam Strange mini was also much-praised, but if
it's his art you didn't like, you might be more interested if you knew
that he is only on Mister Miracle in #1 and is being replaced as of #2
due to his new exclusive contract with Marvel.)
As for Grant's word, I think it can still be counted on, but it bears
mentioning that the 7 Soldiers minis (at least the ones that have
ended, i.e. Shining Knight and Manhattan Guardian) are cliffhanging
directly into next year's Seven Soldiers Special and thus can't really
be considered "self-contained" after all, at least literally.
Tim Turnip
wrote:
Scott is still also a Mister Miracle, he can be seen in this month's
JLA #120 (although he gets only one line, which is, "Oh, boy").
Shilo Norman is Scott Free's successor, he's been kicking around
almost as long as Scott, since the days of the original Kirby series.
Dan McEwen
You really didn't like his art? Man, I loved it. But don't worry
because he signed an exclusive with Marvel and won't be doing 2-4.
Dan McEwen
news:MYz3f.14377$q1....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
Nothing, but Shilo has been Mister Miracle in the past. Grant simply
wanted to focus on the other one. I liked it, especially since I never
read the Shilo stories.
Shawn H
: >Art was horrible, that's a big turn-off for me. I'm taking Grant at his
: >word that I only have to read the ones I want to.
: Not sure whether you're referring to Shining Knight or Mister Miracle,
: but I'm a little amazed at your comment about the art either way. I
Actually, I disliked the art on both of those series. However, I love the
art on Zatanna and Klarion (and in Seven Soldiers #0). I don't like
painted art or work from pencils; I like strong, dark black inks. I think
they work much better to convey story in superhero tales.
: admit that different folks like different strokes, but in my opinion,
: the artists on both minis (Bianchi and Ferry respectively, both
: European newcomers coincidentally) delivered dazzling, visually
: sumptious work that I've never seen the like of before and which made
: me instant fans of both artists. This is the first time I've even
: heard either of them panned, in fact. Maybe I'm just curious which
: one it was you didn't like so I can properly defend whoever it was.
: :-)
I hate Dell'Otto on Secret War, too. I don't even like Alex Ross. I'd
much rather see Grummett, Erskine, Bagley, Sienkiewicz, Perez, Jiminez,
etc. People who can pencil, and also be dramatically inked.
: (Ferry's work on the Adam Strange mini was also much-praised, but if
: it's his art you didn't like, you might be more interested if you knew
: that he is only on Mister Miracle in #1 and is being replaced as of #2
: due to his new exclusive contract with Marvel.)
I thought it was cutesy, too manga.
: As for Grant's word, I think it can still be counted on, but it bears
: mentioning that the 7 Soldiers minis (at least the ones that have
: ended, i.e. Shining Knight and Manhattan Guardian) are cliffhanging
: directly into next year's Seven Soldiers Special and thus can't really
: be considered "self-contained" after all, at least literally.
Literalness doesn't trouble me. Did I enjoy the story in those four
issues? Without having to read any other four issues? I expected the
bookend to tie things up, just as the first one started things off. I
always planned to buy both of those.
Shawn H.
Shawn H
: > Art was horrible, that's a big turn-off for me. I'm taking Grant at
: > his word that I only have to read the ones I want to.
: You really didn't like his art? Man, I loved it. But don't worry
: because he signed an exclusive with Marvel and won't be doing 2-4.
I hope he returns to the Adam Strange style. I thought this one looked
like so much gray soup.
Shawn H.
Sean Walsh
> Tim Turnip <timt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> : >Art was horrible, that's a big turn-off for me. I'm taking Grant at his
> : >word that I only have to read the ones I want to.
>
> : Not sure whether you're referring to Shining Knight or Mister Miracle,
> : but I'm a little amazed at your comment about the art either way. I
>
> Actually, I disliked the art on both of those series. However, I love the
> art on Zatanna and Klarion (and in Seven Soldiers #0). I don't like
> painted art or work from pencils; I like strong, dark black inks. I think
> they work much better to convey story in superhero tales.
Well, Miracle's getting a new artist: Billy Dallas Patton. Looking at
his usual art, I don't know if they'll try to duplicate Ferry's style
(with the painted-esque art) or just let him do his usual thing - which
is a DRASTIC change from Ferry's recent artwork.
> : (Ferry's work on the Adam Strange mini was also much-praised, but if
> : it's his art you didn't like, you might be more interested if you knew
> : that he is only on Mister Miracle in #1 and is being replaced as of #2
> : due to his new exclusive contract with Marvel.)
>
> I thought it was cutesy, too manga.
Manga?!? In Ferry's art?!? I dislike the mangaesque effect but I
honestly don't remember seeing it in ADAM STRANGE.
--
Sean
Madman
>>It could alienate some readers, especially those with limited budgets. <<
a few other DC titles on occasion. And I bought the big ol' 'Blue
Beetle
is killed off' issue, which was excellent and <gasp> self-contained.
So with that under my belt. I shelled out $4for IC #1 this week, and
I was totally confused. I couldn't really tell what was going on,
except that there were a lot of baddies going beserk all over.
And of course the E-2 Superman (and apparently Superboy) at the end.
Well, I'm NOT going to go back and try to buy this and that (even
if I knew what to buy) to try to fill in the gaps, and now I'm thinking
that I don't want to buy IC #2.
THAT, in a nutshell, is the problem. Nothing much is self-contained
here and it costs big bucks to try to fill out the complete story, so
why bother.
Disappointedly yours,
Madman
Sean Walsh
FYI, there's a column over at Newsarama which (very excellently) fills
in the gaps and explains much (if not all) of the history of the Crisis
and the multiverses. So before you totally give up, give it a read.
Hopefully it helps.
And no, I didn't write it. ;p
--
Sean
lione...@yahoo.com
Brian wrote:
>
>
> 7 Soldiers is its own animal. Completely different. Seven 4 issue
> mini-series that interlock but can be read independently. You get a better
> picture if you read all of the minis, but each tells its own story. Each of
> the seven lead into a final bookend. This was announced when the Seven
> Soldiers was first solicited though.
Although, based iupon Guardian and Shining Knight, the stories do not
have endings, just what Badthingus is complaining about. I have no
problem with that as I plan to read the entire set (and pretty much
anything written by Grant Morrison). However, the mini-series are not
as independent as advertised.
Joe
Dan McEwen
news:1129322811.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
I think what Morrison should have said is that any of the mini's could
be read *with* the bookends but that it's unnecessary to read the other
mini's. Since I read most everything Morrison writes, it wasn't an
issue for me, but that's obviously not going to be true for everyone.
Mikel Midnight
<shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
> Actually, I disliked the art on both of those series. However, I love the
> art on Zatanna and Klarion (and in Seven Soldiers #0). I don't like
> painted art or work from pencils; I like strong, dark black inks. I think
> they work much better to convey story in superhero tales.
Those two had my favorite art of the series so far, although I found
some of the passages in Klarion difficult to interpret (as if there was
some strange disconnect between the writing and the art).
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Mikel Midnight
"You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the
pox." (John Montagu, fourth Earl of Sandwich)
"That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles
or your mistress." (John Wilkes, sometime friend of his
and rakish member of the aristocracy)
blak...@blaklion.best.vwh.net
_______________________________________http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/comics.html
Shawn H
: In article <diokfi$vne$1...@us23.unix.fas.harvard.edu>, Shawn H
: <shill#@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
: > Actually, I disliked the art on both of those series. However, I love the
: > art on Zatanna and Klarion (and in Seven Soldiers #0). I don't like
: > painted art or work from pencils; I like strong, dark black inks. I think
: > they work much better to convey story in superhero tales.
: Those two had my favorite art of the series so far, although I found
: some of the passages in Klarion difficult to interpret (as if there was
: some strange disconnect between the writing and the art).
That was just magic, mesmerising your mind! Devious witch-boy!
Or probably it was Teekl.
Shawn H.
MG
"Sean Walsh" <sean...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129319521....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Well, I am familiar with Crisis and the multiverses and I'm wondering how
all this is supposed to fit together.
You have a war in space, a disruption of the universe, and an alliance of
super-villains - not to mention the split between Superman, Batman, and
Wonder Woman. As a long time DC reader, I'm having trouble figuring out how
all this is going to tie into one story - I can only imagine what a new
reader is thinking.
Devlin Tay
"MG" <.> wrote in message
> You have a war in space, a disruption of the universe, and an alliance of
> super-villains - not to mention the split between Superman, Batman, and
> Wonder Woman. As a long time DC reader, I'm having trouble figuring out
> how
> all this is going to tie into one story - I can only imagine what a new
> reader is thinking.
Well, it's not called Infinite Crisis for no good reason. We're beginning
to see how it all ties together. Refugees from the orginal Crisis are
popping up everywhere, and it seems someone extremely powerful is behind ALL
the chaos that's been happening in DCU. I'm sure we'll see the true
mastermind and how everything ties together before long. But you are right
in the sense that anyone who isn't familiar with the original Crisis and
what's been happening in DCU in the last 20 years will not have an easy time
understanding the plot.
Devlin
Adelaide, Australia