Merging of Earth 2 and Earth 1
black...@aol.com
the Post Crisis DCU earth were blends of their Earth 1 and 2
counterparts, with certain elements eliminated altogether, and others
reimagined. But what elements, unique to the Earth 2 versions of
Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman exist in the post COIE DCU versions
of those chracters? I'm hard pressed to think of any.
alfr...@gmail.com
I'm not 100% sure that's accepted, but here goes:
Here are the elements that the original PCE Supes shared with E-2
Supes:
-- no career as Superboy
-- depowered from Pre-Crisis Supes levels
Since Supes and Bats were published continuously, unlike Flash, GL,
and the rest, there is no easy, clear cut dividing line between the
versions.
Mike B
There were a number of heroes specifically NOT merged, mostly the
Trinity and some of their associates. Superman and Lois of
Earth-Two were taken out of reality into Alexander Luthor's "paradise"
with Superboy Prime. So they never merged.
The two Batmen didn't merge, nor their Catwomen, because the E-II
versions died before the Crisis; their second generation, Robin and
Huntress, died *during* Crisis. Batwoman of E-I died before the
Crisis, too.You'd think some others, like the old pudgy GA Alfred and
Gordon would have merged into the E-I counterparts, but they had evolved
over the years, and were similar to their COIE-era versions for many
years.
The Earth-Two versions of both Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor were
granted a special boon by the Olympian gods of that earth to join them
in some mystical beyond place before those gods could fade from
existence. This original Wonder Woman confirmed this by reappearing in
INFINITE CRISIS to give the current WW a lift in her version of the
invisible plane, mentioning both she and the place beyond were at last
vanishing from reality.
--Mike Blake
OM
>Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
...Not too sure about this one. IIRC, there was a meeting between the
Batman of E-1 and the Batwoman of E-2, where we get some pre-COIE
sexual tension between the two. It was an issue of "Brave & Bold", but
I can't for the like of me remember which one.
OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
black...@aol.com
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>
> ...Not too sure about this one. IIRC, there was a meeting between the
> Batman of E-1 and the Batwoman of E-2, where we get some pre-COIE
> sexual tension between the two. It was an issue of "Brave & Bold", but
> I can't for the like of me remember which one.
>
> OM
> --
> ]=====================================[
> ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
> ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
> ]=====================================[
I'm pretty sure your referring to Brave and the Bold #200, the series
final issue. But E-1 Batwoman was killed by Bronze Tiger. Pretty sure
E-2 Betty Kane just retired in the 60's and was never heard from or
mentioned again except for an odd story here and there.
Tim & Suzie VanBerkum
Robin. Also featured Earth-2 Batwoman.
Tim
<black...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:72dbfe26-ed39-4208...@41g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
plausible prose man
> At the end of COIE it was pretty much accepted that the characters on
> the Post Crisis DCU earth were blends of their Earth 1 and 2
> counterparts,
I don't know of any specific dictum to that effect, or any story
elements that indicate it might be so, other than a general logical
implication. In the wake of Man of Steel and Batman: Year One, there
was some talk in interviews and press statements the general editorial
direction of the Superman and Batman titles was going to be a return
to what had made those characters so exciting and original when they
first appeared. None of that ever rose above chicken fat that
contradicted a Mort Weisenger story for Superman, though, as with
Luthor having a bad, red pomp-over when he "first" appeared. As for
Batman, any earth-2 elements were limited to we began seeing the Bat
on his chest without a yellow circle around it sometimes, and
eventually this would become his standard look.
Wonder Woman, they just pretty much made up how they saw fit.
plausible prose man
> >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>
> ...Not too sure about this one.
Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
> IIRC, there was a meeting between the
> Batman of E-1 and the Batwoman of E-2, where we get some pre-COIE
> sexual tension between the two.
Right.
> It was an issue of "Brave & Bold", but
> I can't for the like of me remember which one.
I believe recently reprinted in a "greatest Batcave stories"
collection. The tension comes, in part, because there's some
implication of each of them having a second chance at someone they'd
had some feelings for in the past, feelings which death had made
unrequitable,
Bob Hughes
Wonder Woman- Hippolyta went back to having black hair, although they
did not change the spelling back to Hippolyte (I don't think). Wonder
Woman also became much more of an Amazon warrior, as she had been
originally. Much more emphasis on the characters' mythological
background. Superman was depowered and un-Superboyed, de Phantom
Zoned, de Supergirled, etc.
The changes in Batman were much more subtle. O'Neil however, did
throw out most of the details in the Earth 1 back story, and replaced
it with the Legends of the Dark Knight version- an attempt to bring
back the pre-Robin Batman of 1939.
This is all quite long ago however, and these "post-Crisis" versions
of the characters have been reimagined at least twice more since then.
And this is as it should be. Move forward, not backward.
plausible prose man
wrote:
> No, It was Brave & Bold #182. The team up was Earth-1 Batman and Earth-2
> Robin. Also featured Earth-2 Batwoman.
>
> Tim
>
>
> news:72dbfe26-ed39-4208...@41g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 27, 11:15 pm, OM <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>
> > ...Not too sure about this one. IIRC, there was a meeting between the
> > Batman of E-1 and the Batwoman of E-2, where we get some pre-COIE
> > sexual tension between the two. It was an issue of "Brave & Bold", but
> > I can't for the like of me remember which one.
>
> > OM
> > --
> > ]=====================================[
> > ] OMBlog -http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld[
> > ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
> > ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
> > ]=====================================[
>
> I'm pretty sure your referring to Brave and the Bold #200, the series
> final issue.
No, he means Brave and the Bold #182, where E-1 Batman teams up with
E-2 Robin and e-2 Batwoman, see cover here:
http://www.coverbrowser.com/covers/brave-and-the-bold/4#i182QQ_mdoZ
But E-1 Batwoman was killed by Bronze Tiger. Pretty sure
> E-2 Betty Kane just retired in the 60's
I think she was more a victim of the "new look" than anything.
>and was never heard from or
> mentioned again except for an odd story here and there.
Kathy Kane appeared about as often as e-2 Batman. she shows up in
both B&B #182 and #197.
Tim Turnip
wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>
>...Not too sure about this one. IIRC, there was a meeting between the
>Batman of E-1 and the Batwoman of E-2, where we get some pre-COIE
>sexual tension between the two. It was an issue of "Brave & Bold", but
>I can't for the like of me remember which one.
Alan Brennert's classic "Interlude on Earth-Two" (issue #182). But
nothing there really directly to do with the E-1 Batwoman, who had
been killed off some years earlier.
plausible prose man
Bob Hughes wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:43:11 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
> <George...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 27, 9:03�pm, "blackje...@aol.com" <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> At the end of COIE it was pretty much accepted that the characters on
> >> the Post Crisis DCU earth were blends of their Earth 1 and 2
> >> counterparts,
> >
> >I don't know of any specific dictum to that effect, or any story
> >elements that indicate it might be so, other than a general logical
> >implication. In the wake of Man of Steel and Batman: Year One, there
> >was some talk in interviews and press statements the general editorial
> >direction of the Superman and Batman titles was going to be a return
> >to what had made those characters so exciting and original when they
> >first appeared. None of that ever rose above chicken fat that
> >contradicted a Mort Weisenger story for Superman, though, as with
> >Luthor having a bad, red pomp-over when he "first" appeared. As for
> >Batman, any earth-2 elements were limited to we began seeing the Bat
> >on his chest without a yellow circle around it sometimes, and
> >eventually this would become his standard look.
> >
> > Wonder Woman, they just pretty much made up how they saw fit.
> >
> >
> Wonder Woman- Hippolyta went back to having black hair, although they
> did not change the spelling back to Hippolyte (I don't think). Wonder
> Woman also became much more of an Amazon warrior, as she had been
> originally.
On the other hand, she almost never got tied up in fetish gear, which
used to happen in like, every issue when Billy Moulton was writing the
book.
> Much more emphasis on the characters' mythological
> background.
So in many ways she was a totally new Wonder Woman, rather than a
combination of E-1 and E-2 (and presumably E-3 and E-prime and E-S
and E-X and...(holy Wilson Bryan Key!) and Q and whichever else
would've not diverged if Krona didn't mess everything up.)
> Superman was depowered and un-Superboyed, de Phantom
> Zoned, de Supergirled, etc.
Right, so here's your best case he's got some elements of e-2 in him,
but I don't know how strong a case you can really make for it, and the
explanation above, that since E-2 Superman went into the paradise
dimension that e-2 Superman couldn't have been mereged at all.
> The changes in Batman were much more subtle.
I don't know how subtle they were exactly, but mostly Batman seems to
contain elements of Earth 70's era film noir.
> and O'Neil however, did
> throw out most of the details in the Earth 1 back story, and replaced
> it with the Legends of the Dark Knight version- an attempt to bring
> back the pre-Robin Batman of 1939.
Mike W. Barr must not have got that memo.
> This is all quite long ago however, and these "post-Crisis" versions
> of the characters have been reimagined at least twice more since then.
I rather like that Morrison brought several stories back into the
fold other authors had written off altogether, to say nothing of the
evocations the Black Glove arc had of a slightly later Batman TV show;
I saw some combination of Fantasy Island and the Wild Wild West.
> And this is as it should be. Move forward, not backward.
I think the ideal formula is something like two steps forward, one
step back. I don't ever want to see a Batcave that doesn't have a
robot dinosaur and a giant penny, double bubble canopied and battering
ram batmobiles under tarps, and a weird costume with stiff wings and a
bat eared domino mask stashed away somewhere.
OM
<tim...@hur.midco.net> wrote:
>No, It was Brave & Bold #182. The team up was Earth-1 Batman and Earth-2
>Robin. Also featured Earth-2 Batwoman.
...That's the one. I remembered it wasn't that long before DC
cancelled B&B and replaced it with the original "Batman and the
Outsiders" book, but couldn't remember the issue #.
OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
Michael
CleV
wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:43:11 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
><George...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wonder Woman, they just pretty much made up how they saw fit.
>>
>Wonder Woman- Hippolyta went back to having black hair, although they
>did not change the spelling back to Hippolyte (I don't think).
Actually, she did. It was Byrne who changed her name to Hippolyta
behind the scenes.
Mike B
> Alan Brennert's classic "Interlude on Earth-Two" (issue #182). But
>nothing there really directly to do with the E-1 Batwoman, who had
>been killed off some years earlier.
We really could use a *DC* Visionaries: Alan Brennert volume, IMHO.
Bob Hughes
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>Bob Hughes wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:43:11 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
>> <George...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
The combination of E1 and E2 wasn't my idea. Somebody just asked what
evidence there was to support it. Personally, I think Post Crisis
Earth is a new Earth. It's not Earth 1, nor Earth 2, nor did it used
to be.
>
>> Superman was depowered and un-Superboyed, de Phantom
>> Zoned, de Supergirled, etc.
>
>Right, so here's your best case he's got some elements of e-2 in him,
>but I don't know how strong a case you can really make for it, and the
>explanation above, that since E-2 Superman went into the paradise
>dimension that e-2 Superman couldn't have been mereged at all.
>
>
>> The changes in Batman were much more subtle.
>
> I don't know how subtle they were exactly, but mostly Batman seems to
>contain elements of Earth 70's era film noir.
>
>> and O'Neil however, did
>> throw out most of the details in the Earth 1 back story, and replaced
>> it with the Legends of the Dark Knight version- an attempt to bring
>> back the pre-Robin Batman of 1939.
>
> Mike W. Barr must not have got that memo.
Might have something to do with why he was fired.
(Mind you I loved Mike's Batman- except for the killer part.)
>
>> This is all quite long ago however, and these "post-Crisis" versions
>> of the characters have been reimagined at least twice more since then.
>
> I rather like that Morrison brought several stories back into the
>fold other authors had written off altogether, to say nothing of the
>evocations the Black Glove arc had of a slightly later Batman TV show;
>I saw some combination of Fantasy Island and the Wild Wild West.
>
>> And this is as it should be. Move forward, not backward.
>
> I think the ideal formula is something like two steps forward, one
>step back. I don't ever want to see a Batcave that doesn't have a
>robot dinosaur and a giant penny, double bubble canopied and battering
>ram batmobiles under tarps, and a weird costume with stiff wings and a
>bat eared domino mask stashed away somewhere.
The weird costume with the domino mask- I never really liked that
story. That Batman was inspired by a halloween costume. I never
liked Lew Moxon either. It unnecessarily complicated a rather simple
straigtforward story.
The Batcave, with the giant dinoasaur and the penny. Those, you gotta
keep. Though there have been eras where Batman abandoned the Batcave
and moved into a subway tunnel.
Bad idea.
black...@aol.com
Yes, and the basement of a penthouse.
grinningdemon
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 27, 11:15 pm, OM <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>>
>> ...Not too sure about this one.
>
> Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
>or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
the E-2 side of the fence.
Duggy
In terms of "merging" nothing. They were the Earth-One versions. The
Earth-Two Batman died before CoIE, Wondy and Supes both went to
"heaven"s.
Any changes are reimaginings.
===
= DUG.
===
Unknown
"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4g74j4de32pjj6244...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:51:49 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
> <George...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 27, 11:15 pm, OM <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>>>
>>> ...Not too sure about this one.
>>
>> Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
>>or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
>
> Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
> had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
> the E-2 side of the fence.
Except for Batwoman's appearance in Freedom Fighters which was definately
E-1 since she appeared alongside Batgirl (Barbara Gordon).
Tim Turnip
In addition to that, the E-1 Batwoman also made a handful of Batman
Family appearances in the late '70s.
Bob Hughes
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:51:49 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
><George...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 27, 11:15 pm, OM <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>>>
>>> ...Not too sure about this one.
>>
>> Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
>>or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
>
>Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
>had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
>the E-2 side of the fence.
>
Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
shouldn't be one.
Bob Hughes
Duggy is right. There was no "in-story" merging of any Earth 1/2
characters except Hawkman- and that was much later.
The post Crisis Earth however contained elements of both Earth 1 and
Earth 2- but I've always found that it hurt my head less to just
consider it a whole 'nother Earth altogether.
plausible prose man
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:01:45 -0600, grinningdemon
>
>
>
> <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 06:51:49 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
> ><Georgefha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Nov 27, 11:15 pm, OM <om@all_trolls_must_DIE.com> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:48:15 -0500, Mike B <M1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >Batwoman of E-I died before the Crisis, too.
>
> >>> ...Not too sure about this one.
>
> >> Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
> >>or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
>
> >Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
> >had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
> >the E-2 side of the fence.
>
> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956,
Huh, you think, really? that puts that Lew Moxon story you hate on
earth 1, at least potentially, and some of the Ace stories, and I for
one find the Batman of the Dick Sprang era WF to be entirely too
barrell chested, round-headed, square nosed, and small eared to be
from the same earth as the guy pulling a tarp over the bubble canopied
Batmobile in too many bullets or one bullet too many or whatever the
hell its called.
> I've always
> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> shouldn't be one.
Eh, as demonstrated by batman's reaction to things like Whirly Bats,
and the bat-headed studebaker in B&B #182 and the Harvey Dent
Flashbacks in "half an evil" pretty much the same things happen to
both batmans, one's just done in a dick sprang and shelly mouldof way,
and the other in a neal adams carmine infantino way up until Babs
Gordon comes along.
grinningdemon
OK...that's two...any more?
grinningdemon
wrote:
Are you sure they were set on E-1? I'm seriously asking because I
don't remember any of them.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:01:45 -0600, grinningdemon
Are you only basing that on the beginning of the Silver Age or is
there more to it? Because I would place the Batman split further
along...at least past the goofy alien period.
YKW (ad hoc)
news:8vm5j4d26sdsodi26...@4ax.com:
> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> shouldn't be one.
>
1956? Based on what? The World's Finest Team beginning? That was 1954.
The formation of the first JLA? That was 1960 (OK, actually released very
late in 1959).
Batwoman's introduction coming in 1956 is about the only milestone
directly pertinent to the Batman mythos with which to mark as the
dividing line between the two Earths. Using that as justification for
putting Kathy squarely on E-1, though, is pretty circular reasoning. (And
don't even get me started on Wikipedia's excuse for using 1956.)
--
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Bob Hughes
wrote:
>Bob Hughes <bobh...@ttlc.net> wrote in
>news:8vm5j4d26sdsodi26...@4ax.com:
>
>> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
>> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
>> shouldn't be one.
>>
>
>1956? Based on what? The World's Finest Team beginning? That was 1954.
>The formation of the first JLA? That was 1960 (OK, actually released very
>late in 1959).
>
>Batwoman's introduction coming in 1956 is about the only milestone
>directly pertinent to the Batman mythos with which to mark as the
>dividing line between the two Earths. Using that as justification for
>putting Kathy squarely on E-1, though, is pretty circular reasoning. (And
>don't even get me started on Wikipedia's excuse for using 1956.)
You're right. It was January 1954. See Mike's Amazing Earth 2 time
line here:
http://www.dcindexes.com/planet/weeklyplanet.php?issue=31
So there "shouldn't" be an Earth 2 Batwoman. Mostly because Batman
had already married Selina Kyle by then. Otherwise Helena Wayne would
not have been old enough to become the Huntress by 1977.
Tim Turnip
Positive, because they were virtually all with her teaming up with
Batgirl and the E-1 Robin. She talks about having come out of
retirement. Issue #10 has her giving her blessing to Barbara to use
the Batwoman name (although Barbara is fine with continuing on as
Batgirl). Issue #17 introduces the Huntress into the mix, as the
issue where she first travels to Earth-1 and introduces herself to
Bruce and Dick; that issue features a one-of-a-kind teamup between
Batgirl, the E-1 Batwoman and the Huntress (who, notably, does not
mention having ever heard of an E-2 Batwoman).
Batwoman's only (and somewhat ignominious) cover appearance during
this period:
Tim Turnip
wrote:
>Bob Hughes <bobh...@ttlc.net> wrote in
>news:8vm5j4d26sdsodi26...@4ax.com:
>
>> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
>> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
>> shouldn't be one.
>>
>
>1956? Based on what? The World's Finest Team beginning? That was 1954.
It's always a debatable question, but 1954 is as good as any answer,
as shown by the Mike Voiles site linked to by Bob. His argument boils
down mainly to that year being when Catwoman and Two-Face showed up
again as criminals, which later Earth-2 stories demonstrated never
happened on Earth-2.
>Batwoman's introduction coming in 1956 is about the only milestone
>directly pertinent to the Batman mythos with which to mark as the
>dividing line between the two Earths. Using that as justification for
>putting Kathy squarely on E-1, though, is pretty circular reasoning.
As is using it as justification for putting her squarely on E-2,
since, as I detailed in my other message, an E-1 Batwoman has also
been established.
Unknown
"Tim Turnip" <timt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t2j7j4lfagn1epm1j...@4ax.com...
And I think all of the 70's appearances were written by Bob Rozakis, as the
DC Answer Man was willing to use all sorts of characters and concepts of the
past. Not only using Batwoman and Bat-Girl but the Outsider and bringing
back Vicki Vale, who was later used in the Batman books in the 80's.
plausible prose man
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 00:40:14 GMT, "YKW (ad hoc)" <Decis...@2012.gov>
> wrote:
>
> >Bob Hughes <bobhug...@ttlc.net> wrote in
> >news:8vm5j4d26sdsodi26...@4ax.com:
>
> >> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
> >> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> >> shouldn't be one.
>
> >1956? Based on what? The World's Finest Team beginning? That was 1954.
>
> It's always a debatable question, but 1954 is as good as any answer,
> as shown by the Mike Voiles site linked to by Bob. His argument boils
> down mainly to that year being when Catwoman and Two-Face showed up
> again as criminals, which later Earth-2 stories demonstrated never
> happened on Earth-2.
>
> >Batwoman's introduction coming in 1956 is about the only milestone
> >directly pertinent to the Batman mythos with which to mark as the
> >dividing line between the two Earths.
I can't possibly reconcile the Batman and Robin who appear in Batman
Jones being the same guys from "Daughter of the Demon."
> >Using that as justification for
> >putting Kathy squarely on E-1, though, is pretty circular reasoning.
I also notice Earth one's Kathy seems to make a lot more sense. You
know, at least her costume does; what fabric is black with yellow
highlights?
Mike B
> Batwoman's only (and somewhat ignominious)
> cover appearance during this period:
>
> http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=31497&zoom=4
Ignominious, perhaps, but a bit eerily prophetic of being retconned
out of existence, I think.
Bob Hughes
> I also notice Earth one's Kathy seems to make a lot more sense. You
>know, at least her costume does; what fabric is black with yellow
>highlights?
Probably comes from the same place as Daredevil's black with red
highlights costume. The Wally Wood Emporium.
black...@aol.com
Or until the life of the Dick Grayson from Earth 2 started to diverge
from the life of the Dick Grayson of Earth 1. I belive E-2 Dick was
already a memeber of the JSA by the time Barbra Gordon came along.
But to complicate things further, even after COIE, if something
happened to the Golden Age Earth 2 Batman for example, that wasn't
directly contradicted by the new origin, it could potentially be part
of new continuity. For example, people debated whether BatMite existed
in the Post Crisis DCU, since nothing said specifcally that he didn't.
To this day has it ever been resolved wither Mad Dog was just
hallucinating? So I guess that's one Earth 2 element that at least
"potentially" existed in the Post Crisis DCU.
Tim Turnip
Not quite, but close. Barbara's Batgirl debut was January of '66; the
Earth-2 Robin joined the JSA the following summer.
Tim Turnip
wrote:
Typo alert! I meant to say January of '67 (going by cover-date,
though it was published late '66).. Robin-2's JSA debut was still in
the JLA/JSA team-up of '67, so I got that part more or less right.
Bob Hughes
>
>But to complicate things further, even after COIE, if something
>happened to the Golden Age Earth 2 Batman for example, that wasn't
>directly contradicted by the new origin, it could potentially be part
>of new continuity. For example, people debated whether BatMite existed
>in the Post Crisis DCU, since nothing said specifcally that he didn't.
>To this day has it ever been resolved wither Mad Dog was just
>hallucinating? So I guess that's one Earth 2 element that at least
>"potentially" existed in the Post Crisis DCU.
Bat-Mite was never an Earth 2 character. Certainly was never a Golden
Age character. First appeared in 1959, at a minimum 4 years after the
Golden age ended. (more like 9 years, by my count)
plausible prose man
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 00:40:14 GMT, "YKW (ad hoc)" <Decis...@2012.gov>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >news:8vm5j4d26sdsodi26...@4ax.com:
>
> >> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
> >> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> >> shouldn't be one.
>
> >1956? Based on what? The World's Finest Team beginning? That was 1954.
> >The formation of the first JLA? That was 1960 (OK, actually released very
> >late in 1959).
>
> >Batwoman's introduction coming in 1956 is about the only milestone
> >directly pertinent to the Batman mythos with which to mark as the
> >dividing line between the two Earths. Using that as justification for
> >putting Kathy squarely on E-1, though, is pretty circular reasoning. (And
> >don't even get me started on Wikipedia's excuse for using 1956.)
>
> You're right. It was January 1954. See Mike's Amazing Earth 2 time
> line here:
>
> http://www.dcindexes.com/planet/weeklyplanet.php?issue=31
>
> So there "shouldn't" be an Earth 2 Batwoman. Mostly because Batman
> had already married Selina Kyle by then.
Problematically, Kathy appears in the story giving a date for when
Bruce Wayne married Selina Kyle.
Although "Pedo-phile" is a funny name for a shoe store.
selaboc
> Bob Hughes <bobhug...@ttlc.net> wrote innews:8vm5j4d26sdsodi26...@4ax.com:
>
> > Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
> > wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> > shouldn't be one.
I agree, from the publication history, Batwoman shouldn't be an
Earth-2 character. That she was assigned to Earth-2 despite her
published appearances occuring "after" Batman was said to have married
catwoman on Earth-2 and her cousin Betty (Bat-girl) hanging around
Earth-1's Teen Titans being a bit probablmatic.
> 1956? Based on what? The World's Finest Team beginning? That was 1954.
> The formation of the first JLA? That was 1960 (OK, actually released very
> late in 1959).
>
> Batwoman's introduction coming in 1956 is about the only milestone
> directly pertinent to the Batman mythos with which to mark as the
> dividing line between the two Earths. Using that as justification for
> putting Kathy squarely on E-1, though, is pretty circular reasoning. (And
> don't even get me started on Wikipedia's excuse for using 1956.)
Since there was never a clear cut break between Earth-1 and 2 for the
Super and Bat families, it's only a guessing game as to when the split
occurs. Oftimes the "New Look" batman is cited as the splitting point,
but that was 1964. As JLA clearly shows, Earth-1 Batman existed as far
back as 1959/1960 when Batwoman and Bat-girl were making regular
appearances in the bat-books. Since Batwoman's time clearly overlaps
with the JLA/Earth-1 Batman's it makes sense that the Earth-1 Batman
be in existance as long as the Earth-1 Batwoman has been published,
which brings us back to her first published story in 1956 (same year
that Barry Allen got splashed with chemicals by a lightning bolt and a
year after the Martian Manhunter arrived on Earth-1). Since the
mid-50s is when Earth-1 started (see Barry Allen and Martian Manhunter
two Earth-1 specific characters), the onus it seems to me is on those
claiming Batwoman is NOT/should NOT be an Earth-1 character to cite
why/based on what reasoning they would exclude her from Earth-1.
Alex Wayne
On 30-Nov-2008, "MG" <()> wrote:
> > Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
> > had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
> > the E-2 side of the fence.
>
> Except for Batwoman's appearance in Freedom Fighters which was definately
> E-1 since she appeared alongside Batgirl (Barbara Gordon).
You're right, it was the Earth-one Batwoman that made the appearence in
'Freedom Fighters'! It didn't nessecarely need to be since the Earth-Two
Batwoman could've crossed over to Earth-One. The significant difference is
that the Earth-Two Batwoman aged ragularly since her Detective Comics #233
was published; while the age of the Earth-One Batwoman was totally
contemporary.
Alex Wayne
On 30-Nov-2008, grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
> >>>or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
> >>
> >> Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
> >> had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
> >> the E-2 side of the fence.
> >
> >Except for Batwoman's appearance in Freedom Fighters which was definately
> >
> >E-1 since she appeared alongside Batgirl (Barbara Gordon).
>
> OK...that's two...any more?
Well her and Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) teamed up in various issues of 'The
Batman Family', and possibly in back-ups of 'Detective Comics'!
Alex Wayne
On 1-Dec-2008, "MG" <()> wrote:
> > Positive, because they were virtually all with her teaming up with
> > Batgirl and the E-1 Robin. She talks about having come out of
> > retirement. Issue #10 has her giving her blessing to Barbara to use
> > the Batwoman name (although Barbara is fine with continuing on as
> > Batgirl). Issue #17 introduces the Huntress into the mix, as the
> > issue where she first travels to Earth-1 and introduces herself to
> > Bruce and Dick; that issue features a one-of-a-kind teamup between
> > Batgirl, the E-1 Batwoman and the Huntress (who, notably, does not
> > mention having ever heard of an E-2 Batwoman).
I believe that there was some conflicting opinions over the fact if Batwoman
made her first appearence in the Late Golden Age, or Early Silver Age of DC
history! True, 'Detective Comics #233' was published in 1955, which wedges
in between the 1st appearence of J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter; and
'Showcase #4' that introduced the Silver Age Flash. Now it is a conflict as
to when did the Silver Age kick in with Batman during the mid-50s. Did the
Earth-One Batman stories debut before the first J'onn J'onnz story? after
the first Flash (Barry Allen) story? or somewhere in between?
Frankly, I think that Batwoman's costume fitted right in with the Golden Age
style, so if I was force to select which Earth is most suitable for Kathy
Kane, it would be Earth-Two.
Alex Wayne
On 30-Nov-2008, Bob Hughes <bobh...@ttlc.net> wrote:
> >> Earth 1's KK had been murdered by the league of assassins or the 1000
> >>or the Bronze Tiger or someone by then.
> >
> >Right...and that is arguably the only appearance the E-1 Batwoman ever
> >had...as most if not all of the earlier stories would have fallen on
> >the E-2 side of the fence.
> >
> Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
> wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> shouldn't be one.
First I just got through explaining the conflict that you just stated, then
I immediately see this message! Look for the new subject header "Batwoman
of Earth-Two" to read my own explaination!
Alex Wayne
On 30-Nov-2008, grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >Since the Earth 1/2 split on Batman falls in about 1956, I've always
> >wondered where the Earth 2 Batwoman supposedly came from. There
> >shouldn't be one.
>
> Are you only basing that on the beginning of the Silver Age or is
> there more to it? Because I would place the Batman split further
> along...at least past the goofy alien period.
I personally would declare Batwoman as a one-shot at the end of Earth-Two.
If you remember the story, Kathy Kane gave up the crime fighting scene at
the end of the issue.
I know that she has made appearences in later issues of Detective, Batman,
and even World's Finest in the 1960s. Then Julius Shwartz decided to put
them on moth-balls because he found them as being too silly for the Modern
Age (now known as the Silver Age).
If I had to do it all over; I would declare that those stories involving
Batwoman and Bat-Girl in the 1960s would have taken place on Earth-Two's
Silver Age era. Remember, Superman, Batman, Robin, and Wonder Woman didn't
retire along with the other Golden Age Mystery-Men (Green Arrow & Speedy
were lost in time), so the story could've remained valid!
black...@aol.com
Batman, Earth 1 and Earth 2. But this is incorrect. DC had many other
Earths that were never advertised loudly like Earth 1 and Earth 2. I
believe the pre-crisis DCU heroes were "aware" of 7 to 8 different
Earths, but there were many others. Case in point, the Batman that
debuted in Detective #27 didn't debut on Earth 2. The original Batman
stories took place on Earth-2a, as did the original Superman stories.
This is the earth in which Batman operated in New York City instead of
Gotham City, and carried a gun. The Earth-2 Batman didn't show up
until almost a year after Detective #27. The original Batwoman stories
don't fit easily into Earth-2 or Earth-1. Thus they likely took place
on an Earth different than either Earth-1 or Earth-2, it just wasn't
specifcally stated. Could have been Earth-2a or some different earth.
Considering other facts, like "Batmite" appearing in some of those
stories, then never mentioned in later Earth-1 stories as having
existed, or having Batman meet aliens and visit other planets when
later Earth-1 stories are more grounded in reality, it makes much more
sense to have the original Batwoman stories take place on some unknown
alternate earth. The Earth-2 Batman married Selina sometime in the
mid-50's. At the same time, but on another Earth Batwoman fought
alongside Batman.