Joh-El's P/Review Report: November Titles
Johanna and Elayne
Welcome to our monthly sneak peak at stuff that DC graciously sent us
(that's Elayne, henceforth "E," and Johanna, henceforth "J") to tell y'all
about! A little light this month; apparently there were a lot of painted
books that don't photocopy well. As the cover letter says, "visual mud
doesn't do anyone justice." (Get it? Justice? JLA?) They also didn't send
STEEL #34, by Priest, Cowan and Palmer, which is rather disappointing.
But onward... Obviously, spoilers abound, so be forewarned.
Reviewed herein:
JLA #s 1 and 2
TIME BREAKERS #s 1 and 2
BIG BOOK OF THUGS
BATMAN: BLACKGATE
JLA #s 1 and 2
(#1 ships November 6; #2 ships December 4)
Writer: Grant Morrison
Artist: Howard Porter
Inker: John Dell
Letterer: Ken Lopez
(Colorist: Pat Garrahy)
Head Honcho: Ruben Diaz <FDRD...@aol.com>
E: Believe it or not, I wanted to like this comic. And, in large measure,
I do. There are a number of places where Morrison gets stuck in "wink"
mode, or where interactions are told rather than shown (a good example of
both occurs on page 20 of the first issue, wherein Flash tells Superman
"I'd better warn you right now that I have a serious problem with this guy
who's Green Lantern all of a sudden," followed immediately by "Umm, is this
a *race*, Superman?"), but for the most part the seven heroic characters
feel about right.
J: I disagree. Nobody seemed in character to me; heck, half of them
didn't *have* a character. They're treated as empty costumes. Morrison
wants to play up the iconic nature of these roles, but that's no excuse
for ignoring the people behind the masks. I found the "minor" characters
being written out (Metamorpho, Fire, etc.) much more interesting and
real than the "Magnificent Seven". (Well, six. Aquaman doesn't show up
in the first issue.) The Midsummer's Nightmare problem continues, as
there's no reason that these particular heroes are together. This
drawback is even emphasized, since Batman talks about why he shouldn't
be there (no powers) without anyone, author or character, disagreeing
with him. I do agree that the "standard" Morrison-type lines can be a
problem. I particularly noticed one of the descriptions of Kyle:
"Working the ring is like giving up cigarettes. He feels like a
sixty-a-day man." Hunh?
E: I don't have that much of a problem with the narrative, that's more
stylistic anyway, and Morrison does have style. My main concerns were the
interaction and characterization. The plotline--involving alien visitors
pretending to be benevolent but who are actually duplicitous--is pretty
standard, but Morrison puts a few nice twists on it (the populace isn't
more skeptical of the "Hyper Clan"s actions, the way we've come to expect,
because they're mind controlled). On the other hand, there are certain
inconsistencies in flow (terraforming a desert ecosystem? you're going to
tell me that doesn't have serious long-term consequences?) that jumped me
out of the story a number of times. Porter's art is just fine, if a
little devoid of imagination in places (even alien women wear skimpy,
high-riding outfits designed to show off tits and ass?) and I think Dell's
inks fit it well. All in all, this looks to be a quality book that I think
most nostalgic JLA fans, and not a few newer readers, will enjoy.
J: I thought much less of the package than you did. The first issue
wasn't too bad, but the second got worse instead of better, even with
the additional fanboy bones (the heroes split up into teams to handle
separate threats). The art is too "Image-like" (lots of hard surfaces
that bear no relation to reality, splashes that look cool but disrupt
the story flow) to work in the sea of nostalgia that threatens to drown
this project. As for new readers, the heroes get one panel or less of
introduction, although there was plenty of room for more. They're playing
strictly to older readers here. Unfortunately, we're given the
trappings of the past with no substance behind them. The sad thing is,
too many people are too eager for this to work that they're willing to
ignore everything we've learned about good comics in the twenty? forty?
years since the Justice League first flew, like characterization,
content, and consistency.
TIME BREAKERS #s 1 and 2 (Helix)
"Lives out of Time" storyline
(#1 ships November 20; #2 ships December 18)
Writer: Rachel Pollack <RGPo...@aol.com>
Artist: Chris Weston
Letterer: Ellie deVille
Assoc. Ed.: Julie Rottenberg
Head Honcho: Stuart Moore <DCOM...@aol.com>
E: I often joke about how "time travel gives me a headache." If that's so,
lemme tell you, this series is going to be a major bangeroo. And I'm
loving every minute of it. Probably my favorite Robert Heinlein story is a
little gem called "All You Zombies..." about a character who's a living
paradox-- he/she doesn't actually exist. He/she created and birthed
him/herself through time jumping and interacting with him/herself at
different periods of time. It's sort of the "I'm my own grandpa" theory
taken to its most absurd proportions. So I was primed to like this story.
You might say I've been waiting half my life for it, in fact. Would that
this weren't a miniseries; I think it should be Helix's flagship.
J: I was very excited to see a different type of science fiction than Helix
has done so far (although, as you point out, it's one with a long,
well-respected history). I applaud the variety, especially since this story
is much more character-oriented. (A major problem for me with Helix's line
so far has been the reliance on setting and atmosphere at the expense of
unique characterization--the "Vertigo in space and time" situation.) I've
always found the examination of people and how they react to new situations
the most interesting part of science fiction. It's also curious that
Previews showed just about the only two pages of standard action in the
book, which gives the wrong impression entirely. Unfortunately, I can see
the hard science wonks in the comic-reading audience passing this one
by because "it's not realistic (or scientific; the two aren't
necessarily the same) enough", although that's missing the point. The time
travel gimmicks, like any SF MacGuffin, are just a way to learn more about
ourselves.
E: I think the pseudo-science theorizing behind this story of people
who exist in order to create time paradoxes (which they believe actually
create life as we know it), and the people who try to stop them, is
explained pretty well and logically--at least to my satisfaction. It's
everything I could want from science fiction, the literature of ideas.
The protagonist Angel--and isn't it nice to see a woman who isn't
conventionally beautiful! Kudos all around to Weston for *splendid*
art--is given ample space, but I think it works at the expense of some
of the other supporting characters, all of whom seem rather fascinating
at first glance.
J: I was too busy enjoying the focus on Angela to miss any of the
others, whom I thought were given as much space as they needed. I
especially found the first pages well-done and very scary. I've been
reading women's oral history from the 1950's, and things were awful for
women forced into a life of wifehood. I was glad to see her subsequently
go through a lot of roles, although she remains herself in all of them.
(Face it, wouldn't you be tempted, given an amazing talisman, to become
a Paris jewel thief? Or am I the only one who watched Grace Kelly too
often?) But all the characters here are very realistic, both in their
actions and the way they're drawn. The art can be a tad stiff at times,
but it's an admirable job of including lots of content in in a clear,
understandable fashion. A very entertaining book.
E: Quite agreed, and while I appreciate Rachel's sense of closure in
making this a miniseries (five issues; a rather unusual length, but that
shows me she's thinking in terms of completing a story rather than looking
towards graphic novelization), I wish it could be around longer; to me,
it's a much stronger showcase for what Helix can be than any other title
I've yet seen from the imprint.
THE BIG BOOK OF THUGS (Paradox)
(Ships October 23, but the preview missed the mailing deadline for last month)
Writer: Joel Rose
Artists: Various
J: This could more accurately be called the Big Book of Gangs, but maybe
that has connotations better avoided. "Thugs", as a slightly old-fashioned
word, does give a good idea of the historical nature of the stories. (At
least those shown here. The following comments are also based only on the
selection of material provided, not the complete book.) The stories are
primarily sordid, ending in suicide, ruin, or jail, with the exception of
two pages about a group of vigilantes that spanked their victims.
E: This one was actually one of my favorites, as it took a slightly
different tone than most of the others. I also found the historical
overview of the Thuggees (whence the appellation "thug" is derived)
fascinating, as most of the other stories we see in this volume seem to
take place in the United States (largely in the 19th and early 20th
centuries). I was impressed, in fact, at how Rose varies his writing style
slightly from story to story, and I think the editor (Helfer?) paired him
with appropriate artists for each tale.
J: The coverage of the "Ohio Gang", aka Harding's presidential
administration, is timely, considering the upcoming election, but I'd like
to see a reference list; they must have good ones to justify some of the
outrageous remarks made. The art style throughout is cartoony or otherwise
stylized, perhaps to lighten the subject matter or remove the reader from
greater identification with this unpleasant group of people. Like the other
Big Books, this volume is full of odd, unusual, and unbelievable segments,
the comic equivalent of a bathroom reader.
BATMAN: BLACKGATE
"Hatred's Home"
(Ships November 13)
Writer: Chuck Dixon
Penciller: Joe Staton
Inker: James Hodgkins
J: A one-shot featuring fifty-four pages of Batman in an island insane
asylum. (Have we seen Blackgate before, or is this another "it's worse
than Arkham, but we just haven't bothered to mention it" Bludhaven?) Except
we there's not a lot of Batman; the primary focus is on the interplay of
the community's inmates. The portrayals are well-handled, and the art is
wonderful, so good that I hate to see it colored.
E: I've always liked Joe Staton's pencils, and I think Hodgkins does a nice
job inking them, but I agree with you-- it's got a very grim feel to it
(not a surprise for a Batman book written by Dixon) and seemed much more
appropriate in black & white. I appreciated that every character has
different facial and body features--when you're dealing with something this
plot-heavy, good art is a tremendous help in differentiating your
characters.
J: Yet I find myself wondering "what's the point?" We know Batman's going
to win, and we don't learn anything new about him or any other characters,
so why put out the story, other than to indulge Dixon's apparent
crime-story jones? I wish the resources had been put towards some character
we haven't seen so much of.
E: And the premise is paper-thin - Batman wants to stop a jailbreak. That's
*it*? This is something the guards at Blackgate are utterly unable to do
themselves? I don't think I ever really bought this. I actually don't
mind that Dixon likes to write crime stories, I think we need more of these
(even though they're not my preferred genre) and fewer superhero stories,
but I'd prefer a more solid premise. Which, come to think of it, *would*
have worked better with a different heroic character-- say, the warden.
But of course, then it wouldn't have sold. <g>
J: I agree, we need more variety, but I wish everything wasn't grafted to
superheros. It's the unholy alliance of the current marketing stance, and
it's already killed one book before its time.
So, Dear Readers, which of these are *you* interested in?
- Johanna and Elayne
(one is a genius, the other's insane)
--
Johanna and Elayne will be appearing together, for one day only
(Saturday), at this weekend's Big Apple Convention in NYC. Come by the
Friends of Lulu booth and say hi! Where else can you have a net.celebrity
do her best to enlist you in a good cause?
Bryant Durrell
In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
Johanna and Elayne <fire...@panix.com,dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>JLA #s 1 and 2
>(#1 ships November 6; #2 ships December 4)
>
>Writer: Grant Morrison
>Artist: Howard Porter
>Inker: John Dell
>Letterer: Ken Lopez
>(Colorist: Pat Garrahy)
>Head Honcho: Ruben Diaz <FDRD...@aol.com>
Some...
Spoiler...
Space...
>I particularly noticed one of the descriptions of Kyle:
>"Working the ring is like giving up cigarettes. He feels like a
>sixty-a-day man." Hunh?
Sixty cigarettes a day. It's hard to give up a sixty a day habit.
--
In four lines, I can just barely tell you that I am Bryant Durrell, that my
email address is dur...@innocence.com, that I have a Web page at (of course)
http://www.innocence.com/~durrell, that I also run Shadowfist and Feng Shui
Web pages accessible from the above URL, and by the time I'm done I'm out of
Stephen J. De Young
In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
fire...@panix.com,dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu wrote:
> As for new readers, the heroes get one panel or less of
> introduction, although there was plenty of room for more. They're playing
> strictly to older readers here.
Well, I haven't read the issue, of course, but is this a valid
criticism? I mean, did we really need another capsule-retelling of
Superman's origin? That would seem to be one of the clear advantages of
these Seven characters: with the possible exception fo the Martian
Manhunter, everybody knows who they are. Do you really think there's a
reader out there, no matter how new to the JLA, who doesn't basically know
who Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are? If so, I wonder what rock
they live under. I find pointless setup in thought balloons and narration
to be a pain to wade through in a comic, like the persistent mantra of
'I've got Tactile Telekinesis' in Superboy. Lets just let the characters
stand as well-known.
--
Steve De Young
sj...@mail.idt.net
"Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Bryant Durrell (dur...@best.com) wrote:
: In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,: >JLA #s 1 and 2
: >(#1 ships November 6; #2 ships December 4)
: >
: >Writer: Grant Morrison
: >Artist: Howard Porter
: >Inker: John Dell
: >Letterer: Ken Lopez
: >(Colorist: Pat Garrahy)
: >Head Honcho: Ruben Diaz <FDRD...@aol.com>
: Some...
: Spoiler...
: Space...
: >I particularly noticed one of the descriptions of Kyle:
: >"Working the ring is like giving up cigarettes. He feels like a
: >sixty-a-day man." Hunh?
: Sixty cigarettes a day. It's hard to give up a sixty a day habit.
I think the "Hunh?" on Johanna's part was more meant to reflect Morrison's
narrative description of Kyle as reading, to her, rather awkward and not
in keeping with the book's supposed tone-- the context of the paragraph
out of which you took this sentence. I'm pretty sure she knows what "a
sixty-a-day man" means. :)
- Elayne (and if THAT isn't a setup line I don't know WHAT is...)
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for a copy of the final issue of ()~~
the official Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal; ##
it's free! "Yes, that's right-- fair to all, and no fare to ##
anybody!... Join the expectant crowd, gathering now!" _##_
Bryant Durrell
In article <52942b$i...@panix.com>,
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>Bryant Durrell (dur...@best.com) wrote:
>: In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
>: Johanna and Elayne <fire...@panix.com,dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>: >(#1 ships November 6; #2 ships December 4)
>: >
>: >Writer: Grant Morrison
>: >Artist: Howard Porter
>: >Inker: John Dell
>: >Letterer: Ken Lopez
>: >(Colorist: Pat Garrahy)
>: >Head Honcho: Ruben Diaz <FDRD...@aol.com>
>
>
>: Spoiler...
>
>: Space...
>
>: >I particularly noticed one of the descriptions of Kyle:
>: >"Working the ring is like giving up cigarettes. He feels like a
>: >sixty-a-day man." Hunh?
>
>
>I think the "Hunh?" on Johanna's part was more meant to reflect Morrison's
>narrative description of Kyle as reading, to her, rather awkward and not
>in keeping with the book's supposed tone-- the context of the paragraph
>out of which you took this sentence. I'm pretty sure she knows what "a
>sixty-a-day man" means. :)
Oh, OK. I misread (sorry about chopping context; my provider is dog
slow and it's hard to edit) -- I thought that was a character talking
about Kyle.
Johanna Draper
In article <5290va$e...@shellx.best.com>,
Bryant Durrell <dur...@best.com> wrote:
>>"Working the ring is like giving up cigarettes. He feels like a
>>sixty-a-day man." Hunh?
>
Well, yes, but does that seem appropriate for the character? It's too
literate and thoughtful for Kyle. Thus the criticism.
Johanna
--
"In the new day, things aren't so bad at all."
-- Voice of the Beehive, "New Day"
Johanna Draper
In article <sjdy-24099...@ppp-37.ts-1.dfw.idt.net>,
>> As for new readers, the heroes get one panel or less of
>> introduction, although there was plenty of room for more.
>
>criticism?
Of course it is; I made it. :)
I think I cut my elaboration of this point, actually. I know that most of
us know Diana's an Amazon, J'Onn's a Martian, etc., but I was expecting
some indication of how Mr. Morrison saw these characters, some indication
of them as heroes on their own, some use of their secret ID perhaps.
*Something* to give them context outside of this book and their "We're
Heroes" roles in it. These characters are in this book because of their
status in the DCU, yet we see no connection with the DCU here.
>Do you really think there's a reader out there, no matter how new to
>the JLA, who doesn't basically know who Superman, Batman, and Wonder
>Woman are?
Yes. They're probably not reading comics, but they're still readers, and
those are the people that need to be approached to keep comics viable as a
medium in this country.
Especially in this case. The whole point of the project is "these *are*
your father's superheroes", yet they're using a new GL, a new Flash, a new
(in terms of the hook and angst) Aquaman. Who these characters are now
needs to be addressed. It's just good writing.
>Lets just let the characters stand as well-known.
Doing that reduces the book to a slugfest among costumes. I don't want to
read something that pointless.
Jeremy Billones
In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
Johanna and Elayne <fire...@panix.com,dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
Uhh, ladies, you wanna reverse those email addresses? :)
Some SPOILER SPACE, just in case (but I think I got them all)
[Re: JLA]
>J: I thought much less of the package than you did. The first issue
>wasn't too bad, but the second got worse instead of better, even with
>the additional fanboy bones (the heroes split up into teams to handle
>separate threats).
"Fanboy bones?" I realize that the way all the old JSA stories were
told was to split the teammates up into shorter segments, then
bring them back together at the end. I suppose you're contrasting
that to the "switch back and forth between scenes" method of
storytelling? I guess I'm just not sure what you're contrasting this to.
>TIME BREAKERS #s 1 and 2 (Helix)
I'm glad you both seem to like this: I'm looking forward to this as well.
>BATMAN: BLACKGATE
>
>J: A one-shot featuring fifty-four pages of Batman in an island insane
>asylum. (Have we seen Blackgate before, or is this another "it's worse
>than Arkham, but we just haven't bothered to mention it" Bludhaven?)
Blackgate is a "normal" prison, while Arkham is the asylum. One's for
the insane criminals, the other's for the sane ones. Dunno when they
added it to continuity.
Jeremy Billones http://www.primenet.com/~billones/
Objective Reality Isn't "The lottery is a tax on people who don't know math."
"I believe this is heaven to no one else but me and I'll defend it as long
as I can be left here to linger in silence if I choose to. Would you try to
understand?"
Joseph T Arendt
In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
Johanna and Elayne <fire...@panix.com,dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>(that's Elayne, henceforth "E," and Johanna, henceforth "J") to tell y'all
>about!
>BATMAN: BLACKGATE
...
>
>J: A one-shot featuring fifty-four pages of Batman in an island insane
>asylum. (Have we seen Blackgate before, or is this another "it's worse
>than Arkham, but we just haven't bothered to mention it" Bludhaven?)
Blackgate has been around for awhile. It is not another
Bludhaven. For example, back when I still got _Robin_, Batman and
Robin handglided out to Blackgate on its island. Blackgate was mentioned
in KnightMess also.
Arkam is only for those deemed insane. Blackgate is for sane
criminals, if that isn't an oxymoron. Joker, Riddler, and that crowd
all rate Arkham. Bane, perhaps Penguin, various gang members, and so
on go to Blackgate. You can start arguments by saying which Bat-villians
should go to which place.
Frankly, I like this. It makes sense that some of the villians
go to the looney bin but others just go to prison.
Joseph Arendt
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Jeremy Billones (bill...@primenet.com) wrote:
: In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
: Uhh, ladies, you wanna reverse those email addresses? :)
How odd - mine should have been the only one which showed up on auto
respond, since I posted it. Your responder must show the "reply-to"
addresses...
: Some SPOILER SPACE, just in case (but I think I got them all)
:
: >TIME BREAKERS #s 1 and 2 (Helix)
: I'm glad you both seem to like this: I'm looking forward to this as well.
It's neat. Ed Douglas showed me Rachel's original proposal, so I actually
know a little more about how this story is going to turn out than I let
on here. Of course, given my Sieve-Brain I *have* forgotten much of it...
- Elayne
Johanna Draper
In article <529e1b$n...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
Jeremy Billones <bill...@primenet.com> wrote:
>In article <528urs$q...@panix.com>,
>Johanna and Elayne <fire...@panix.com,dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Some SPOILER SPACE, just in case (but I think I got them all)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>J: I thought much less of the package than you did. The first issue
>>wasn't too bad, but the second got worse instead of better, even with
>>the additional fanboy bones (the heroes split up into teams to handle
>>separate threats).
>
Bones thrown to slavering fanboys. I knew I should have edited that. I
meant that that tactic was yet another evocation of the old days.
>>TIME BREAKERS #s 1 and 2 (Helix)
>
>I'm glad you both seem to like this: I'm looking forward to this as well.
This was another "I didn't realize that I liked it until I saw it", since I
wasn't planning on picking it up originally.
David J. Snyder
In article <5297ns$b...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>Well, yes, but does that seem appropriate for the character? It's too
>literate and thoughtful for Kyle. Thus the criticism.
>
Are you saying the narrator's narration has to match
how the character would think?
-Dave
--
"If she wins again, there'll be Daleks on the streets of London by the
year 2000. Let's make a bomb."
Thomas P. Johnston
fire...@panix.com (Johanna and Elayne) writes:
>JLA #s 1 and 2
>I found the "minor" characters
>being written out (Metamorpho, Fire, etc.) much more interesting and
>real than the "Magnificent Seven".
Clarification request: Were the minor characters shown in the book,
and did you feel that they were better handled in this book than the
majors? Or, is this a general complaint re: the removal of the minors?
>The art is too "Image-like" (lots of hard surfaces
>that bear no relation to reality, splashes that look cool but disrupt
>the story flow) to work in the sea of nostalgia that threatens to drown
>this project. As for new readers, the heroes get one panel or less of
>introduction, although there was plenty of room for more. They're playing
>strictly to older readers here. Unfortunately, we're given the
>trappings of the past with no substance behind them.
Sounds like a weird combination. Old style story & interactions/
new Imagey art. To be honest, I decided not to follow Untold Tales
of Spider-Man because the art was too 'modern' for my tastes. Wonder
how many other old-time readers did this, too.
>The sad thing is,
>too many people are too eager for this to work that they're willing to
>ignore everything we've learned about good comics in the twenty? forty?
>years since the Justice League first flew, like characterization,
>content, and consistency.
Yeesh. No need to slam your fellow fans. The big-name heroes
will get people to look at the title who dropped it somewhere along
the line. Morrison can introduce characters as it goes on. If his
writing is poor, does it really matter much which characters he's
writing poorly? As a connesueir (oh, for a dictionary!) you'll
probably drop the book regardless if it's poorly written, right?
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
David J. Snyder (da...@io.com) wrote:
: In article <5297ns$b...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
: Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Well, yes, but does that seem appropriate for the character? It's too
: >literate and thoughtful for Kyle. Thus the criticism.
: >
: But it's not Kyle that's saying it, it's the narrator.
: Are you saying the narrator's narration has to match
: how the character would think?
If the narrator is, in essence, describing to us how the character is
supposed to be feeling (which seems to be Morrison's style, rather than
giving the character his/her own thought balloons), yeah, the narration
probably should be closer to what a character's thought balloons would
normally tell us.
David J. Snyder
In article <52b1pb$5...@panix.com>,
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>If the narrator is, in essence, describing to us how the character is
>supposed to be feeling (which seems to be Morrison's style, rather than
>giving the character his/her own thought balloons), yeah, the narration
>probably should be closer to what a character's thought balloons would
>normally tell us.
But the narrator isn't telling us how Kyle thinks he's
feeling. The narrator is this omniescient guy who sitting
around who actually knows how Kyle is really feeling.
Just because someone knows how I'm feeling doesn't mean
he's necessarily going to describe it the same way I do.
The narrator should try to maintain a constant tone,
and not flip flop descriptive language based on whose
head he's looking into at the moment.
Theres a reason why it's narration and not thought balloons.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
: >If the narrator is, in essence, describing to us how the character is
: >supposed to be feeling (which seems to be Morrison's style, rather than
: >giving the character his/her own thought balloons), yeah, the narration
: >probably should be closer to what a character's thought balloons would
: >normally tell us.
: But the narrator isn't telling us how Kyle thinks he's
: feeling. The narrator is this omniescient guy who sitting
: around who actually knows how Kyle is really feeling.
What was the quote? Didn't it start "Kyle feels like..." or something
like that? To me, that says Morrison is telling us he knows how Kyle is
feeling, and he's using the narrative device instead of thought balloons
to tell us so.
Jeremy Billones
In article <529ptd$a...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>In article <529e1b$n...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
>Jeremy Billones <bill...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Some SPOILER SPACE, just in case (but I think I got them all)
>>
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>>[Re: JLA]
>>>wasn't too bad, but the second got worse instead of better, even with
>>>the additional fanboy bones (the heroes split up into teams to handle
>>>separate threats).
>>
>
>Bones thrown to slavering fanboys. I knew I should have edited that. I
>meant that that tactic was yet another evocation of the old days.
Understood. But the remainer of my post questioned that. Given a
team book, how does one a) plot out the handling of separate threats,
and b) display that within the story? Having them split-and-team-up
might in fact be a homage to old silver or golden age stories, or it
might simply be the best way to tell this one. I wasn't sure from
your comment whether that was the case.
Bryant Durrell
In article <52bbho$o...@panix.com>,
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>David J. Snyder (da...@io.com) wrote:
>: Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>: >If the narrator is, in essence, describing to us how the character is
>: >supposed to be feeling (which seems to be Morrison's style, rather than
>: >giving the character his/her own thought balloons), yeah, the narration
>: >probably should be closer to what a character's thought balloons would
>: >normally tell us.
>
>: But the narrator isn't telling us how Kyle thinks he's
>: feeling. The narrator is this omniescient guy who sitting
>: around who actually knows how Kyle is really feeling.
>
>What was the quote? Didn't it start "Kyle feels like..." or something
>like that? To me, that says Morrison is telling us he knows how Kyle is
>feeling, and he's using the narrative device instead of thought balloons
>to tell us so.
Augh; I'm sorry I said anything. ;)
I'm going to wait till the comics hits the stands, and then I can
rave about it with the PURE FRENZY of a VERTIGO FANBOY. Right now
I'm trying to argue without having seen the comic, and that's just
silly of me.
Melsteve
Johanna said:
>I think I cut my elaboration of this point, actually. I know that most of
>us know Diana's an Amazon, J'Onn's a Martian, etc., but I was >expecting
>some indication of how Mr. Morrison saw these characters, some
>indication
>of them as heroes on their own, some use of their secret ID >perhaps.
I think a good example of this is early on in Moore's SWamp Thing run
where he intros the JLA almost as aloof gods. I can't quote it but I'm
sure there are plenty around here who can. It was a take on the Jusice
League that really stays with you.
However what Moore does in exposition, Morrison tends to do in the
plots(in other words he'll probably show it as the story progresses.
Melsteve
should write a paper
Abhijit Khale
mels...@aol.com (Melsteve) writes:
>I think a good example of this is early on in Moore's SWamp Thing run
>where he intros the JLA almost as aloof gods. I can't quote it but I'm
>sure there are plenty around here who can. It was a take on the Jusice
>League that really stays with you.
"There is a house above the world where the overpeople gather
... There is a man who moves so fast that his entire life is an
endless succession of statues ... There is a man who can see through
the planet's crust and squeeze diamonds out of its coal .. In their
house above the world, the overpeople meet and listen to a mad dry
voice that whispers of Earth-death".
And some of my other favorite pieces:
"In Salem, at the house without doors or corners, a gold mask began to
whisper to itself, voice dry as Egypt. A man left his bed to answer
it. His beautiful, ageless wife .. wept.".
"This is an imaginary story about a perfect man who came from the sky
and did nothing but good. It tells of his twilight, when the great
battles were over and the great miracles long since performed, of how
his enemies conspired against him and of that final war in the
snowblind wastes beneath the Northern Lights; of the women he loved
and of the choice he made between them; of how he broke his most
sacred oath and how finally all the things he loved were taken from
him save one ... This is an IMAGINARY STORY. Aren't they all ? "
"A disfigured killer flips a disfigured coin."
"The hotel was not the best, but it was the most atmospheric. The
devil checked in at noon"
"The Joker's stopped laughing"
"I wish all the scum on Earth had one throat and I had my hands around
it".
"These charnel pastures serve as a reminder, a memento mori, never
letting us forget that though Olympus pierce the very skies, in all the
history of Earth, there's never been a heaven; never been a house of
Gods that was not built on human bones."
"Spring came and everything in the world woke up. Except him"
David W. Frye
> >that bear no relation to reality, splashes that look cool but disrupt
> >the story flow) to work in the sea of nostalgia that threatens to drown
> >this project. As for new readers, the heroes get one panel or less of
> >introduction, although there was plenty of room for more. They're playing
> >strictly to older readers here. Unfortunately, we're given the
> >trappings of the past with no substance behind them.
>
> new Imagey art. To be honest, I decided not to follow Untold Tales
> of Spider-Man because the art was too 'modern' for my tastes. Wonder
> how many other old-time readers did this, too.
Aakk! Untold art is "modern"? Gee, last time I looked it was reminiscient
of Kirby era artwork. Suggest you actually pick the book up and look at
it. Sounds like you were going on what someone else told you!
Dave Frye
Douglas Limmer
kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>mels...@aol.com (Melsteve) writes:
>>I think a good example of this is early on in Moore's SWamp Thing run
>>where he intros the JLA almost as aloof gods. I can't quote it but I'm
>>sure there are plenty around here who can. It was a take on the Jusice
>>League that really stays with you.
>"There is a house above the world where the overpeople gather
>... There is a man who moves so fast that his entire life is an
>endless succession of statues ... There is a man who can see through
>the planet's crust and squeeze diamonds out of its coal .. In their
>house above the world, the overpeople meet and listen to a mad dry
>voice that whispers of Earth-death".
[more examples cut]
Gee, show the readers a little poesy, and they gush all over you.
It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times. It's
nice that Moore does it (as long as he doesn't _overdo_ it), and I
wish other writers would use it more often, but use of metaphor, even
clever use of metaphor, doesn't make you a god.
Douglas Limmer -- lim...@math.orst.edu
To answer your question |
Ernie has the Buddha-nature | Matt Cibula,
Bert does not. | national haiku champion, 1995
Patrick O'Duffy
kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) writes:
> lim...@math.orst.edu (Douglas Limmer) writes:
>
> >kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>
>
> >>"There is a house above the world where the overpeople gather
> >>... There is a man who moves so fast that his entire life is an
> >>endless succession of statues ... There is a man who can see through
> >>the planet's crust and squeeze diamonds out of its coal .. In their
> >>house above the world, the overpeople meet and listen to a mad dry
> >>voice that whispers of Earth-death".
>
>
>
> >It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
> >in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>
> otherwise) and I've seen few writers who can match Moore's efficacy
> with dialogue (In English language comics, only Kyle baker). Its not
> just stringing big words together, anyone who wrote hank mccoy's
> dialogue can do that, its imagery, and shades of complexity.
> >nice that Moore does it (as long as he doesn't _overdo_ it), and I
> >wish other writers would use it more often, but use of metaphor, even
> >clever use of metaphor, doesn't make you a god.
>
> besides use powerful dialogue. This is just one of his strengths.
>
>
I'll agree that Moore does have a nice, lyrical turn of phrase, and
one that's hard to imitate. Warren Ellis tries to use that Moore-esque
style and it always seems forced.
On the other hand, Ellis is a lot more convincing on dialogue, an
area where Moore is only average. And believe me, Moore cannot write
decent poetry (check out the Etrigan appearances in early SWAMP THING).
It just becomes overblown and collapses under its own weight.
Patrick O'Duffy
chi...@fred.aurora.edu
> On the other hand, Ellis is a lot more convincing on dialogue, an
> area where Moore is only average. And believe me, Moore cannot write
> decent poetry (check out the Etrigan appearances in early SWAMP THING).
> It just becomes overblown and collapses under its own weight.
>
> Patrick O'Duffy
>
>
though I think Moore writes "superhero" talk better. And I'd be
DAMN curious to know who you think handles Etrigan better; Moore
produced some of the best poetry ever for his Swamp thing run-
check out the Annual where Swampy goes to hell
"Now take her from these stews and frozen lakes
She will remember not what did occur
But if it pleases, tell her when she wakes
A flower grows yet in hell thats named for her"
or
"The Rules? And if I break the rules, pray tell?
How will I be punished- sent perhps--to Hell?"
Or the brilliant opening/closing poem in the last issue of the Monkey
King storyline
"In slaughterhouses far beyond their ken
I'll shed no tear for those who die unshriven
For they are men- just men, and what are men
But chariots of wrath-by demons driven!"
And how this ties into the closing narration, after Matt Cable
has been possesed by Arcane:
"thus mollified she goes, harsh words forgiven..
Down highways in the dark..by demons driven."
Brrr.. still gives me the chills. No one, before, or since has
managed the poetry so effectively. The only one who came close
is Gaiman, and even he had etrigan fall silent after his breif
burst of verse..
"Back to your gate and duty squatterbloat,
Ill take the dreamloard, play his guardian,
For innocents abroad needs guide of note
And who notes more than me.. than Etrigan"
And that was all Gaiman could manage. Sure, Grant and Ennis did
a competent job on the poetry..but it was nowhere near Moores.
Chidder
'Remember, the price of getting what you want, is gettign what once you
wanted'-Morpheus.
David Scott Doty
I recognize most of these quotes, but not all. Can you identify,
please?
--
Dave Doty
"Oh, so *that's* how those .sig files work!"
adam louis stephanides
kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) writes:
>"This is an imaginary story about a perfect man who came from the sky
>and did nothing but good. It tells of his twilight, when the great
>battles were over and the great miracles long since performed, of how
>his enemies conspired against him and of that final war in the
>snowblind wastes beneath the Northern Lights; of the women he loved
>and of the choice he made between them; of how he broke his most
>sacred oath and how finally all the things he loved were taken from
>him save one ... This is an IMAGINARY STORY. Aren't they all ? "
This still gives me the shivers when I read it.
--Adam
adam louis stephanides
chi...@fred.aurora.edu writes:
> I'll agree that Ellis handles "real-people" talk better than Moore,
>though I think Moore writes "superhero" talk better. And I'd be
>DAMN curious to know who you think handles Etrigan better; Moore
>produced some of the best poetry ever for his Swamp thing run-
>check out the Annual where Swampy goes to hell
[examples snipped]
Or my favorite (from the American Gothic finale):
"Does Heaven come to Hell in search of aid?
Are those cast out soon welcomed back inside
When danger threatens? Sirs, I am dismayed.
I'd credited the angels with more pride."
And on a completely different (and non-DC) note,
his "Tale of Timothy Tate," done for 2000 AD and
collected in _Alan Moore's Shocking Futures_ is
a very funny piece of light verse. (That may not
be the exact title).
--Adam
Patrick O'Duffy
chi...@fred.aurora.edu writes:
> > On the other hand, Ellis is a lot more convincing on dialogue, an
> > area where Moore is only average. And believe me, Moore cannot write
> > decent poetry (check out the Etrigan appearances in early SWAMP THING).
> > It just becomes overblown and collapses under its own weight.
> >
> > Patrick O'Duffy
> >
> >
> though I think Moore writes "superhero" talk better. And I'd be
> DAMN curious to know who you think handles Etrigan better; Moore
> produced some of the best poetry ever for his Swamp thing run-
> check out the Annual where Swampy goes to hell
>
"The toys about the nursery are set,
For idiot Chaos to arrange at whim.
He drools and ruins lives,
His chin is wet and old or young...
It matters not to him."
"I am the one who comes to cage the ape.
I pay no heed to youth or purity.
I'll roast each fool that aids the beast's escape,
And drink their health tonight in Purgat'ry!"
Alan Moore, or Samuel Taylor Coleridge on a bad opium day?
I think verses like this are overblown. Of course, that's just
my opinion.
I did like the "Vicious Caberet" song from V FOR VENDETTA, despite
the fact that it didn't scan.
On the whole, I'd rather see Moore trying to evoke mood through
words than be poetic. Bu that's just me.
Patrick O'Duffy
David J. Snyder
In article <52bbho$o...@panix.com>,
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>David J. Snyder (da...@io.com) wrote:
>
>: But the narrator isn't telling us how Kyle thinks he's
>: feeling. The narrator is this omniescient guy who sitting
>: around who actually knows how Kyle is really feeling.
>
>What was the quote? Didn't it start "Kyle feels like..." or something
>like that? To me, that says Morrison is telling us he knows how Kyle is
>feeling, and he's using the narrative device instead of thought balloons
>to tell us so.
Yes, the narrator is telling us how Kyle is feeling. (Thats what
I said above.) Kyle feels like a sixty-a-day man trying to give
up smoking. That doesn't mean Kyle knows he feels like
a sixty-a-day man trying to give up smoking, or that
he would describe his feeling as a sixty-day-a-man trying
to give up smoking. But the omniscient narrator can
take the feeling of a sixty-a-day man, take the Kyle's
feeling. Compare them. There s a high correlation.
Marc Singer
In article <52j5dg$u...@inferno.mpx.com.au>,
Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
>chi...@fred.aurora.edu writes:
>> And how this ties into the closing narration, after Matt Cable
>> has been possesed by Arcane:
>>
>> "thus mollified she goes, harsh words forgiven..
>> Down highways in the dark..by demons driven."
>>
>> Brrr.. still gives me the chills.
Moore's most chilling poetry in that storyline didn't come from Etrigan...
and it ended with "Burma Shave." :)
> On the whole, I'd rather see Moore trying to evoke mood through
>words than be poetic.
Are you perhaps talking about some *other* Moore? Alan Moore evoked
mood through prose all the time, and didn't stop even when he had
Etrigan rhyming.
Those very issues had a particularly chilling description of a revenant
baby with its head in a cellophane bag...
Marc
chi...@fred.aurora.edu
> I recognize most of these quotes, but not all. Can you identify,
> please?
>
> --
> Dave Doty
Not by issue #, no, sorry. Im miles away from my collection.
They came from:
The annual where Swamp thing goes to hell ( #2?)
The final issue of the Monkey King Storyline (#27?)
The Sandman issue where he goes to hell (#4?)
Somebody help me out here?
Chidder
'Remember, the price of getting what you want, is getting what once you
wanted'-Morpheus
Patrick O'Duffy
poetry.
I'm willing to admit that my taste in poetry just doesn't coincide with
this style - I'm a T.S. Eliot fan, in the main.
And as for Moore's ability to conjure mood - no argument at all. When
Alan's firing on all cylinders, he's incredible. Although, having said
that, he occasionally forgets that there are pictures to go along with
the words and do a lot of the descriptive work. That's just my opinion,
of course.
Patrick O'Duffy
Matt and Vicki Holmes
>kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) writes:
We just don't get stories like that anymore...
(And a big "me too" on the shivers aspect, too!!)
Matt Holmes
mho...@mars.execulink.com
I consider Alan Moore personally responsible for
keeping me interested in comics in the mid-80's
and now again in the mid-90's... but is that something
he'd be proud of??
Sean Med
Johanna wrote, regarding JLA #1:
<<I do agree that the "standard" Morrison-type lines can be a problem. I
particularly noticed one of the descriptions of Kyle: "Working the ring is
like giving up cigarettes. He feels like a sixty-a-day man." Hunh?>>
I'm probably stating the obvious, but in all this discussion about
narrative voice and such, I haven't seen anyone else mention that he's
talking about will power. You need it to quit smoking, and also to use the
ring. The sixty-a-day thing seems like an apt simile to me.
Sean
Marc Singer
In article <324f1d87...@news.crossover.com>,
Kevin J. Maroney <kmar...@crossover.com> wrote:
>kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>
>>"Spring came and everything in the world woke up. Except him"
>
>page of Millar's final Swamp Thing.
The Swamp Thing issue where Swampy and Abby admitted and consummated their
love, ST #34 or so. One of my favorite comics of all time, purely for
writing like the above. (Well, the art's great, too.)
However, I don't think Millar's last page is an echo of it. The "him"
in Moore's line is Matt Cable, who was in a coma at the time.
Marc
Kevin J. Maroney
kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>"Spring came and everything in the world woke up. Except him"
What is this from? I ask because there are echos of it on the last
page of Millar's final Swamp Thing.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Kevin J. Maroney
Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
> On the other hand, Ellis is a lot more convincing on dialogue, an
>area where Moore is only average. And believe me, Moore cannot write
>decent poetry (check out the Etrigan appearances in early SWAMP THING).
>It just becomes overblown and collapses under its own weight.
I'll disagree on both counts. The dialogue in FROM HELL seems
perfectly natural and unforced. And, as to Etrigan's poetry, I often
find myself repeating, "Why to hear the tales they tell, You'd think
no *guilty* child's in Hell!"
Johanna Draper
In article <52j5dg$u...@inferno.mpx.com.au>,
>my opinion.
> I did like the "Vicious Caberet" song from V FOR VENDETTA, despite
>the fact that it didn't scan.
Moore seems to have problems with that. If I remember correctly, that was
one of the big problems with the poetry in the Demon/Lobo book Elayne & I
previewed a while ago.
Johanna
--
"But y'know, even with all that, you never tried to change yourself... you
just reached inside until you found a way to make it work.... Damn it, Jan,
I really can't blame you for making your life work, can I? And now... I
guess it's my turn." -- Sean Erin, LSH v4 31
Johanna Draper
In article <52f32k$f...@news.orst.edu>,
Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
Mike Chary
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
>> I think verses like this are overblown. Of course, that's just
>>my opinion.
>> I did like the "Vicious Caberet" song from V FOR VENDETTA, despite
>>the fact that it didn't scan.
>
>Moore seems to have problems with that. If I remember correctly, that was
>one of the big problems with the poetry in the Demon/Lobo book Elayne & I
>previewed a while ago.
I believe that comic was written by Alan Grant.
(Especially since Moore would probably rather take his own life than work
for DC again.)
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "The best argument against
democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
Mike Chary
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>
>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
Who do you like?
Kevin J. Maroney
Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
> I did like the "Vicious Caberet" song from V FOR VENDETTA, despite
>the fact that it didn't scan.
Actually, it mostly does, and is quite effective set to a Kurt
Weill-like tune. I've got the EP of David J performing it, and it's a
nice piece.
"They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise this vicious cabaret."
Cool enough by me.
Sean Med
Re: Moore dialogue (was Re: Joh-El's P/Review Report: November
Titles)
Mark Singer wrote:
<<In article <324f1d87...@news.crossover.com>,
Kevin J. Maroney <kmar...@crossover.com> wrote:
>kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>
>>"Spring came and everything in the world woke up. Except him"
>
>What is this from? I ask because there are echos of it on the last
>page of Millar's final Swamp Thing.
The Swamp Thing issue where Swampy and Abby admitted and consummated their
love, ST #34 or so. One of my favorite comics of all time, purely for
writing like the above. (Well, the art's great, too.)
However, I don't think Millar's last page is an echo of it. The "him"
in Moore's line is Matt Cable, who was in a coma at the time.>>
My reading of Millar's last page is that he was speaking of Matt Cable as
well. At the end of the last issue, ST cradles a broken bird and brings it
back to life, echoing the dead bird he found during the Moore story where
it was revealed that Arcane had taken over Cable's body. ST says something
about a long-overdue debt he has to an old friend who died so he could win
a philosophical argument, and then he sets the bird free with the words,
"And then he woke up." (Which is also a repetition of the second page of
Millar's first issue, BTW.) I took it to mean that Matt was waking up from
the dream he lived in during all those issues of Sandman, and ST was
giving him new life on earth.
Hmm, this is veering into Vertigo territory, isn't it? Johanna? Elayne?
Sean
Patrick O'Duffy
I must admit, I haven't heard the piece set to music. A friend
of mine who's a professional musician tried playing the notes shown
above the lyrics, and said it was unplayable.
Patrick O'Duffy
Patrick O'Duffy
kmar...@crossover.com (Kevin J. Maroney) writes:
> Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
>
> > I did like the "Vicious Caberet" song from V FOR VENDETTA, despite
> >the fact that it didn't scan.
>
> Actually, it mostly does, and is quite effective set to a Kurt
> Weill-like tune. I've got the EP of David J performing it, and it's a
> nice piece.
>
> "They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
> They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
> They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
> And leave you all to improvise this vicious cabaret."
>
> Cool enough by me.
>
> --
> Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
> Games are my entire waking life.
>
A musician friend of mine tried to play the piece using the notes
illustrated, and said it wasn't playable, just a jumble of notes. I
wouldn't mind hearing the song with a decent tune behind it.
And I still think that "story" and "Broadway" isn't a great rhyme.
Incidentally, did you (or anyone) ever read the 'Alan Moore Songbook'
feature in NEGATIVE BURN? Some decent stuff, some rather ordinary.
Patrick O'Duffy
Patrick O'Duffy
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> In article <52f32k$f...@news.orst.edu>,
> Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
> >It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
> >in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>
> I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
> around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
>
> --
> "But y'know, even with all that, you never tried to change yourself... you
> just reached inside until you found a way to make it work.... Damn it, Jan,
> I really can't blame you for making your life work, can I? And now... I
> guess it's my turn." -- Sean Erin, LSH v4 31
Well actually, despite my protests, I think Alan Moore is a
brilliant writer - although his work for Image has turned me off
him quite a lot. As for James Robinson - terrific writer. Check
out LEAVE IT TO CHANCE for a really good comics read.
Patrick O'Duffy
Marc Singer
In article <52oqfl$k...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>>
>>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
>
Hey, much as I appreciate Moore's writing, I don't think someone should
have to list their own artistic preferences just to criticize the guy.
However, I would be interested to know why Johanna doesn't like him. (And
why she doesn't like Robinson, for that matter, though I happen to agree
with her.) Bold claims go better with back-up.
I also think that "Moore is a god" oversimplifies things far too much,
because it obscures the fact that people like him precisely for his
writing and not his rep. :)
Marc
Abhijit Khale
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>around here.
I'd be even gladder to hear someone present a logical, systematic
analysis of Moore's work (especially stronger work like Watchmen, V,
Miracleman, From Hell, Small Killing) and present problems or
weaknesses rather than merely "question". [ And yes, there are
weaknesess, I've pointed some of them out myself.]
Abhijit
Ted Faber
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>In article <52f32k$f...@news.orst.edu>,
>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
Well, sure, everyone occasionally turns a spiffy phrase. When Alan Moore's
on a roll, it's significantly more than imagery. It's pacing, character
development, and irony, and a sense of theme that ties together the most
disparate pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that you didn't realize was there.
At least that's what I see.
.
>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
De gustibus non disputandem. But Moore's one of the few comics writers that I
reread and still find nuances that I've missed.
"I've always thought respectable people scoundrels, and I look anxiously at
my face every morning for signs of my becoming a scoundrel." -- Betrand Russell
--
Ted Faber Figment at Large fa...@cinenet.net
"Imagine the most abhorrent person. Let's call him Ted." -- Peter Himmelman
Melsteve
Doug Limmer quoted me:
>mels...@aol.com (Melsteve) writes:
>>I think a good example of this is early on in Moore's Swamp Thing run
>>where he intros the JLA almost as aloof gods. I can't quote it but I'm
>>sure there are plenty around here who can. It was a take on the Jusice
>>League that really stays with you.
Abhijit actually wrote the quote, but I've clipped it.
Douglas Limmer responded:
>>>Gee, show the readers a little poesy, and they gush all over you.
>>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>>>It's nice that Moore does it (as long as he doesn't _overdo_ it),
>>>and I wish other writers would use it more often, but use of
>>>metaphor, even clever use of metaphor, doesn't make you a god.
>>>Douglas Limmer -- lim...@math.orst.edu
How's that new smug lotion? I think you're swathing on a bit too much
today.
I'm curious if you could point out where I did or ever have referred to
Alan Moore as a "god"? Certainly not in the post you quoted. I did say
one particular description "stay[ed] with you"(meaning a general
you-obviously not Douglas Limmer personally). This is "gush"ing?? Last
weekend, I told my mother she looked like she lost some weight . I hope
she doesn't think I was hitting on her!!
Look just because you may have picked up a book recently doesn't make
everyone else slobbering idiots(inferred). If I (or anyone) happen to
innocently enjoy a writer, what's the point of knocking it? Because you
may be as good or better? Great. I'd love to read some of your stories.
We'll swap. I mean it.
Not appreciating or liking a particular writer is no definition of
education or intelligience. Any idiot can pick up any book. It doesn't
make you a genius. And, in turn, even a brainiac can read and enjoy Swamp
Thing.
Me? I'm probably somewhere in the middle. I read a lot, though. Always
have(I was a fat kid. And don't you know all fat kids read :)) Since you
brought it up, I also took high school English and even got an English
scholarship to college when it was my major. Doesn't mean I'm such hot
stuff. Unfortunately there are many more things I want to read but won't
than there are books I'll actually finish.
I'm much more apt to appreciate a piece for what it is than show how large
my capability is for not liking it as much as other people did. Just me I
suppose.
But then I liked U2 before and after "Rattle and Hum".(and i hated Wham
after "Make It Big")
Melsteve
stewing
Melsteve
Johanna wrote:
>>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" >>mindset
>>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated"
>>writers.
Oh jeesh!! Don't you start in on me too :)
All I said was I liked Moore's description of the JLA in a Swamp Thing
book. I've never approached calling Moore or _anyone_ god.
Now you all get back to your Dooley threads and go boycott something!!!!!
Melsteve
banging his head on his keyboard:
pisdf00OSDFGUqwerutfnowduif
Mike Chary
Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>>>
>>>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
>>
>
>Hey, much as I appreciate Moore's writing, I don't think someone should
>have to list their own artistic preferences just to criticize the guy.
I was just curious. She said he was overrated and I was wondering who her
favorites were.
Sean Med
Re: Moore dialogue (was Re: Joh-El's P/Review Report: November Titles)
Johanna wrote:
<<In article <52j5dg$u...@inferno.mpx.com.au>,
Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
> I think verses like this are overblown. Of course, that's just
>my opinion.
> I did like the "Vicious Caberet" song from V FOR VENDETTA, despite
>the fact that it didn't scan.
Moore seems to have problems with that. If I remember correctly, that was
one of the big problems with the poetry in the Demon/Lobo book Elayne & I
previewed a while ago.>>
The scansion problem's true of Moore,
Though Ennis made the Demon sing.
With Alan Grant back at the fore,
The rhymes, I'm sure, he's bungling.
It's sad to see my Etrigan
Degraded by this lesser scribe,
But there's no way I'll be the man
To write him--save a hefty bribe!
(And yes, your claim's authenticated--
Robinson is overrated!)
Sean
Sean Med
Patrick O'Duffy wrote:
<<I must admit, I haven't heard the piece set to music. A friend of mine
who's a professional musician tried playing the notes shown above the
lyrics, and said it was unplayable.>>
This reminds me of an interview I once read with Frank Zappa. He was asked
how he became interested in music, and he said he found some sheet music
when he was a kid and thought it looked neat. He decided to try to write
his own, and just scribbled out pages and pages of musical notes. That's
how he thought it was done! It was unplayable, of course, but he thought
it looked cool at the time. (There are those who say he never progressed
much beyond that point, but I m not one of em.)
Oh, and to try to keep this on-topic in racdu, Zappa's facial hair sort of
reminded me of a Batarang.
Sean\
Johanna Draper
In article <52oqfl$k...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
I'd like to see Douglas Coupland write comics. Oh, you mean currently
working? Hmmm ... Sarah Dyer. Patricia Breen. Mark Crilley. (I'm not having
an easy time of this. I'm asking myself the question "whose work would you
buy sight unseen based solely on the name", and those were the first that
popped to mind. I can't think of any superhero writers.)
Johanna Draper
In article <52oqjr$k...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>Moore seems to have problems with that. If I remember correctly, that was
>>one of the big problems with the poetry in the Demon/Lobo book Elayne & I
>>previewed a while ago.
>
You're right. Mea culpa.
Johanna Draper
In article <52qj8g$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
The guilty flee where no one pursueth. :)
>All I said was I liked Moore's description of the JLA in a Swamp Thing
>book. I've never approached calling Moore or _anyone_ god.
Didn't say you did -- I was just applauding a diversity of viewpoints. I've
always been too chicken to question some of the "received wisdom" around
here, and I admired the poster's courage.
Douglas Limmer
mels...@aol.com (Melsteve) wrote:
>Douglas Limmer (I) wrote::
>>>>Gee, show the readers a little poesy, and they gush all over you.
>>>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>>>>and I wish other writers would use it more often, but use of
>>>>metaphor, even clever use of metaphor, doesn't make you a god.
>>>>Douglas Limmer -- lim...@math.orst.edu
wondering, I removed one reference.)
>How's that new smug lotion? I think you're swathing on a bit too much
>today.
Well, somebody read this the wrong way. :-)
>I'm curious if you could point out where I did or ever have referred to
>Alan Moore as a "god"?
You didn't. (Well, I'll assume you didn't -- I don't feel like digging
through DejaNews to verify it. :-) I wasn't talking specifically
about _you_, but about the many people who say "Alan Moore is the best
writer since sliced bread" and quote poetic phrases as "proof". Other
support usually isn't offered until someone (like me) points out that
imagery alone does not a good writer make.
>Look just because you may have picked up a book recently doesn't make
>everyone else slobbering idiots(inferred).
When did I say that everyone else was a slobbering idiot? I _did_ say
that poetic phrases alone shouldn't impress people. Is that what
you're reading as saying someone is an idiot?
> If I (or anyone) happen to
>innocently enjoy a writer, what's the point of knocking it?
Huh? I wasn't knocking _him_. _Watchmen_ was pretty good. :-)
_Supreme_ 42 was cute for the first read, but I wouldn't mind if it
got lost somewhere now. Similarly for his _Spawn_ issue (#10?). What
I was refering to was what I perceived as some
fans' opinions of him. My impression was built over a period of time,
and your post just triggered its release. :-) If you were somehow
personally insulted, I apologize. That was far from my intent.
> Because you
>may be as good or better? Great. I'd love to read some of your stories.
>We'll swap. I mean it.
Well, on my best days, I think I could write poetic phrases as well as
he. Or almost. It's all the other stuff I have trouble with. :-)
>Not appreciating or liking a particular writer is no definition of
>education or intelligience.
When did I say anything about education or intelligence? I think
you're reading a lot into it that isn't there.
Douglas Limmer -- lim...@math.orst.edu
To answer your question |
Ernie has the Buddha-nature | Matt Cibula,
Bert does not. | national haiku champion, 1995
Johanna Draper
In article <52pvmp$1...@rac1.wam.umd.edu>,
Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>However, I would be interested to know why Johanna doesn't like him.
Mainly because of the overrated claims made by his supporters. I heard such
great things about his writing that it just couldn't live up to it (much
like Kingdom Come). I mean, yes, the stories are good, but the florid prose
can be a bit much.
>why she doesn't like Robinson, for that matter,
Oh, I think I did enough of that when I dropped Starman, and if I say
anything more, he's going to keep guilting me at cons. :)
Johanna Draper
In article <52n68p$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Sean Med <sea...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'm probably stating the obvious, but in all this discussion about
>narrative voice and such, I haven't seen anyone else mention that he's
>talking about will power. You need it to quit smoking, and also to use the
>ring. The sixty-a-day thing seems like an apt simile to me.
It commited the cardinal sin of comic writing; it made me realize I was
reading a comic book. Ripped me right out of the story.
Don Brinker's Evil Twin
kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>>around here.
>I'd be even gladder to hear someone present a logical, systematic
>analysis of Moore's work (especially stronger work like Watchmen, V,
>Miracleman, From Hell, Small Killing) and present problems or
>weaknesses rather than merely "question". [ And yes, there are
>weaknesess, I've pointed some of them out myself.]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't people been doing just that to
Watchmen since it came out? I know I've heard well-constructed
criticism of the way Moore went off into left field for the last two
issues.
- Don
adam louis stephanides
lim...@math.orst.edu (Douglas Limmer) writes:
>kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>>"There is a house above the world where the overpeople gather
>>... There is a man who moves so fast that his entire life is an
>>endless succession of statues ... There is a man who can see through
>>the planet's crust and squeeze diamonds out of its coal .. In their
>>house above the world, the overpeople meet and listen to a mad dry
>>voice that whispers of Earth-death".
>[more examples cut]
>Gee, show the readers a little poesy, and they gush all over you.
>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times. It's
>nice that Moore does it (as long as he doesn't _overdo_ it), and I
>wish other writers would use it more often, but use of metaphor, even
>clever use of metaphor, doesn't make you a god.
It may be a little late in the day to be saying this, but the
quote above doesn't really use metaphor (at most it uses hyperbole,
with the bit about the Flash's "entire life" being "an endless suc-
cession of statues.") And Abhijit's other quotes also made little
or no use of metaphor. Moore at his best has the ability to find
just the right words to capture a mood, a character or a situation.
Thus, quoting him out of context doesn't really do him justice;
Abhijit's quote from "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow"
wouldn't make me shiver if I hadn't read the entire story.
Metaphor is only one component of his style, and not the most
important (and I would agree that he is sometimes too florid,
especially in his earlier stuff).
--Adam
Mike Chary
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>Who do you like?
>
>I'd like to see Douglas Coupland write comics. Oh, you mean currently
>working? Hmmm ... Sarah Dyer. Patricia Breen. Mark Crilley. (I'm not having
>an easy time of this. I'm asking myself the question "whose work would you
>buy sight unseen based solely on the name", and those were the first that
>popped to mind. I can't think of any superhero writers.)
>
I don't have many like that either. And primarily people who have shown
they can hold a plot together. Most comics writers couldn't do a second
act to save their lives. (I refuse to name names because many of the
people I am talking about read the group.) I'll buy John Broome, Priest,
Alan Moore, sight unseen. I also like Alan Davis, Robert Loren Fleming
and Frank Miller. PAD used to be there, but he's gone down hill.
Another guy I like is Scott McCloud, but I don't tend to like his subject
matter.
Mike Chary
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>>Moore seems to have problems with that. If I remember correctly, that was
>>>one of the big problems with the poetry in the Demon/Lobo book Elayne & I
>>>previewed a while ago.
>>
>>I believe that comic was written by Alan Grant.
>
>You're right. Mea culpa.
Hardly a culpa situation. If that's the worst thing you ever do, you will
not come to a horrible end. :) I was just making sure :)
Marc Singer
In article <52sfq1$k...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>In article <52pvmp$1...@rac1.wam.umd.edu>,
>Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>>However, I would be interested to know why Johanna doesn't like him.
>
>Mainly because of the overrated claims made by his supporters.
Namely...? "Moore is god" obviously isn't true, but then it's something
I only hear stated by his detractors. :)
> I heard such
>great things about his writing that it just couldn't live up to it (much
>like Kingdom Come).
The funny thing about Kingdom Come is that it disappointed me even after
I'd had my expectations dashed. :-\
Marc
Andrew Black
On 30 Sep 1996 15:40:23 GMT, dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna
Draper) wrote:
>In article <52f32k$f...@news.orst.edu>,
>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>
>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>around here.
Two observations and a question.
1. Moore has piercing, all-knowing eyes.
2. Moore has a long, flowing beard.
Has anybody here seen Moore and God in the same place at the same
time?
Andrew Black abl...@melbpc.org.au
----
Amoral One / Roam Alone / Roam on Ale / O! Roman Ale! / Am Oral One
Patrick O'Duffy
kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) writes:
> dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>
> >I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
> >around here.
>
> analysis of Moore's work (especially stronger work like Watchmen, V,
> Miracleman, From Hell, Small Killing) and present problems or
> weaknesses rather than merely "question". [ And yes, there are
> weaknesess, I've pointed some of them out myself.]
>
Well, I did analyse WATCHMEN for my Lit-Crit course in English at
Uni. Mind you, that was a few years back, and I now have no idea
what I wrote. I think it was pretty positive, on the whole - the
novelty of analysing a comic may have blinded my lecturer to the
flaws.
Actually, I think that was the year I compared SANDMAN to Tolkien
for my SF class (SANDMAN won), and examined the treatment of death
in mainstream comics for my Death & Dying course. Some of my best
marks came from those papers (not that that's saying much).
It would be nice to see comics getting some serious criticism,
but that's unlikely to happen while the medium is seen solely as
a fringe phenomena. And of course, most fans don't want to read
something that stodgy (because most fans want to read X-MEN or SPAWN).
Oh well. Cross fingers and hope.
Patrick O'Duffy
Johanna Draper
In article <52ssl7$a...@rac10.wam.umd.edu>,
Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>In article <52sfq1$k...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>Mainly because of the overrated claims made by his supporters.
>
>Namely...?
I don't remember specifics, I just remember hearing an awful lot about how
good his writing was, with certain stories quoted from over and over again.
(That "overpeople" thing.) Upon reading the actual stories, they didn't
live up to their hype.
Melsteve
In article <3251a670...@news.orst.edu>, lim...@math.orst.edu (Douglas
Limmer) writes:
Melsteve wrote:
>I'm curious if you could point out where I did or ever have referred to
>Alan Moore as a "god"?
>>You didn't. (Well, I'll assume you didn't -- I don't feel like digging
>>through DejaNews to verify it. :-)
Well you don't need to since I included a copy of my ORIGINAL post in my
last post. And no one in the thread even came close.
>> I wasn't talking specifically about _you_,
Oh. Well it was a little hard to tell because you did followup and copy
_my_ post in _your_ post
>>but about the many people who say "Alan Moore is the best
>>writer since sliced bread" and quote poetic phrases as "proof".
Well then my point still stands. This happened nowhere in this thread.
Maybe other places, other threads, other Usenets.
However if someone only looks for fine poetic phrases on writing then I
suppose they would think he was the best comic writer since slice bread.
So what if they do.
>>Other
>>support usually isn't offered until someone (like me) points out that
>>imagery alone does not a good writer make.
Did you want a smile here? Who are you to say what makes a good writer?
>Look just because you may have picked up a book recently doesn't make
>everyone else slobbering idiots(inferred).
>>When did I say that everyone else was a slobbering idiot? I _did_ >>say
that poetic phrases alone shouldn't impress people. Is that what
>>you're reading as saying someone is an idiot?
You didn't say it. Notice I said I inferred it. It sure seemed like it to
me that you came out of nowhere with the Moore critique and even implied
the the posters before you hadn't gotten past high-school english.
frankly it still reads like that to me(Ijust re-read it). No one in this
thread has shown anything beyond an appreciation for a couple of passages.
There is no "gush"ing as you said.
>>your post just triggered its release. :-)
So did yours. :))
>>If you were somehow
>>personally insulted, I apologize. That was far from my intent.
Well I didn't carry it around with me all day and I seemed to be able to
go on with my life. But maybe you should re-read the thread it's only a
few days old. If you don't it might be a little hard to understand how
out-of the-blue your original post seemed.
Geez I never go on this long.
melsteve
thinks this might be more fit for e-mail
and
will still by a Moore project sight unseen. So nyah:)
chi...@fred.aurora.edu
To get this thread back on topic, Im still waiting to have someone
post better comic poetry than Moore's. <g> Mind you, the only
character that speaks in poetry is Etrigan, unless you count blank
verse. I dont, but Im of the old- if it dont rhyme it aint poetry school
<bg>.
And no, I dont think Moore's a _GOD_. I just think his Swamp Thing
run was better than about 60% of the stuff producded at the time, and
75% of the stuff produced today.
But, Image killed him, in much the same way The Cosby show made Bill
COsby unfunny, and all he produces now is dreck, more or less on a par
with all the other dreck out there.
Chidder
'Remember, the price of getting what you want, is getting what once you
wanted.'-Morpheus
Jeremy Billones
In article <52s9gv$g...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>In article <52oqfl$k...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
>Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>Who do you like?
>
>I'd like to see Douglas Coupland write comics. Oh, you mean currently
>working? Hmmm ... Sarah Dyer. Patricia Breen. Mark Crilley.
What's Patricia Breen done? (He asks cluelessly...)
Jeremy Billones http://www.primenet.com/~billones/
Objective Reality Isn't Go Caps & Orioles! USSF Certifiable
"I am climbing a ladder of urgency. Climbing a ladder of hope.
Climbing a ladder of my emotions. Climbing a ladder of unravelling rope."
Johanna Draper
In article <52u9h9$l...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
Kiss & Tell. Semi-autobiographical anthology. Two issues so far, issue
three just solicited. Watch for my review & free comic contest coming soon!
Kevin J. Maroney
Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> wrote:
>> "They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
>> They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
>> They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
>> And leave you all to improvise this vicious cabaret."
> And I still think that "story" and "Broadway" isn't a great rhyme.
Never said it was a rhyme at all. The stanza doesn't have an a-a-a-b
rhyme scheme.
> Incidentally, did you (or anyone) ever read the 'Alan Moore Songbook'
>feature in NEGATIVE BURN? Some decent stuff, some rather ordinary.
Agreed. I never said all of his poetry was fantastic; I was just
standing up for that particular piece.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Kevin J. Maroney
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) wrote:
>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
I'd have to vote for Todd McFarlane, personally. That anyone in this
day and age thinks that what McFarlane excretes is writing continues
to amaze me.
Greg Schienke
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) wrote:
>I don't remember specifics, I just remember hearing an awful lot about how
>good his writing was, with certain stories quoted from over and over again.
>(That "overpeople" thing.) Upon reading the actual stories, they didn't
>live up to their hype.
But you what, nothing really lives up to the hype in this
over-information age. I bought Watchman #1 not really knowing what I
was going to get and was stunned by the material and its presentation;
Kingdom Come was hyped for a year and I was left wondering what the
hype was about.
What everyone should do is take a chance on something unknown. Maybe
you'll be the first to read the next Moore or Jeff Smith and look
forward to the next issue. In my experience, for example, I've heard
people going on for years about PAD's work and when I started buying
his Hulk, I wondered what all the excitement was about.
I think that when a book or a movie or a television show is constantly
promoteded, we want it to be equal to the hype. Our expectations are
set for one thing and we are delivered another.
Greg
Scott Hollifield
lim...@math.orst.edu (Douglas Limmer) wrote:
>When did I say that everyone else was a slobbering idiot? I _did_ say
>that poetic phrases alone shouldn't impress people.
Who's talking "alone"?
I think that Moore's more lyrical imagery is a very appealing
*element* of his writing. Surely you're not denying that such a thing
can be the case.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Hollifield ** sco...@cris.com ** http://www.cris.com/~scotth
Get out of Elmo Free
abl...@melbpc.org.au (Andrew Black) writes:
> Two observations and a question.
>
> 1. Moore has piercing, all-knowing eyes.
>
> 2. Moore has a long, flowing beard.
>
> Has anybody here seen Moore and God in the same place at the same
> time?
Given the standard Christian interpretation of God as omnipresent, then
anyone who has seen Moore has seen Moore and God in the same place at
the same time.
But for me, Moore's big yellow head and tiny orange feet remind *me* of
Tweety Bird.
--
"Baby Huey 2099: The Incredible Huey. An intellectual Baby Huey? Yup! PAD moves
to Harvey at the insistence of Ariel David!"--Lance Smith
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Marc Singer
In article <52th3b$u...@inferno.mpx.com.au>,
>>
>> I'd be even gladder to hear someone present a logical, systematic
>> analysis of Moore's work (especially stronger work like Watchmen, V,
>> Miracleman, From Hell, Small Killing) and present problems or
>> weaknesses rather than merely "question". [ And yes, there are
>> weaknesess, I've pointed some of them out myself.]
>
>Uni. Mind you, that was a few years back, and I now have no idea
>what I wrote. I think it was pretty positive, on the whole - the
>novelty of analysing a comic may have blinded my lecturer to the
>flaws.
> It would be nice to see comics getting some serious criticism,
>but that's unlikely to happen while the medium is seen solely as
>a fringe phenomena. And of course, most fans don't want to read
>something that stodgy (because most fans want to read X-MEN or SPAWN).
The other problem is that there's nowhere to make that serious criticism.
None of the fan publications are that criticism-oriented, and very few
critical journals are geared towards taking articles on comics. (One of
the few that does, the Journal of Popular Culture, has a serious backlog.
Let's see, I *think* it stopped printing papers on "Batman Returns" last
year...) There needs to be some kind of receptive space. Otherwise, the
only criticism will be in projects students do for classes, and those will
never be seen by a larger audience.
Marc
Matthew F Johnson
Andrew Black (abl...@melbpc.org.au) writes:
> On 30 Sep 1996 15:40:23 GMT, dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna
> Draper) wrote:
>
>>In article <52f32k$f...@news.orst.edu>,
>>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>>
>>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>>around here.
>
> Two observations and a question.
>
> 1. Moore has piercing, all-knowing eyes.
>
> 2. Moore has a long, flowing beard.
>
> Has anybody here seen Moore and God in the same place at the same
> time?
>
Come to think of it, everytime God performs a miracle, Alan Moore
runs into the room a few minutes after he's left, looking flustered!
The way to find out is to see if he reacts when Neil Gaiman
activates his signal watch ("Zed zed zed zed")...
--
Matthew F. Johnson
"Not quite as impressive a volcano god as we were led to expect."
Matthew F Johnson
(chi...@fred.aurora.edu) writes:
> To get this thread back on topic, Im still waiting to have someone
> post better comic poetry than Moore's. <g> Mind you, the only
> character that speaks in poetry is Etrigan, unless you count blank
> verse. I dont, but Im of the old- if it dont rhyme it aint poetry school
> <bg>.
> And no, I dont think Moore's a _GOD_. I just think his Swamp Thing
> run was better than about 60% of the stuff producded at the time, and
> 75% of the stuff produced today.
> But, Image killed him, in much the same way The Cosby show made Bill
> COsby unfunny, and all he produces now is dreck, more or less on a par
> with all the other dreck out there.
Cosby made himself unfunny. Yes, he used to be funny, and yes, he
is no longer funny... but he had total control over _The Cosby Show_, and
has been quoted as saying that he frequently overruled his writers, so if
it wasn't funny, it's his fault.
I seriously doubt that anyone much edited Moore's Image work,
considering his rep and how much of a coup it seemed to be to get him at
the time ("Uh, sir, I think this comma might be in the wrong place...
pleasedon'tkillme"). If you didn't like his Image work, blame him.
Dave Miller
chi...@fred.aurora.edu typed:
> But, Image killed him [Moore], in much the same way The Cosby show made Bill
>COsby unfunny, and all he produces now is dreck, more or less on a par
>with all the other dreck out there.
FROM HELL is dreck? I wonder what comics work you would consider to
be well-written.
Dave Miller
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"No First Amendment produces Hitler.
Healthy First Amendment produces David Duke.
There's a big difference there." -Dennis Miller
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Abhijit Khale
chi...@fred.aurora.edu writes:
> But, Image killed him, in much the same way The Cosby show made Bill
>COsby unfunny, and all he produces now is dreck, more or less on a par
>with all the other dreck out there.
This is completely and utterly wrong.
Firstly Moore, still produces great stuff such as From Hell, which
has earned him several awards.
Secondly, Image gave Moore the chance to earn money without working
for Marvel and DC again (which he's too principled to do). And they
gave him the chance to publish 1963. Image should be commended for
making it possible for Moore to earn enough money to continue to do
his serious stuff, rather than criticized.
Abhijit Khale
dbri...@earthlink.net (Don Brinker's Evil Twin) writes:
>kh...@deshaw.com (Abhijit Khale) wrote:
>>dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>>>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>>>around here.
>>I'd be even gladder to hear someone present a logical, systematic
>>analysis of Moore's work (especially stronger work like Watchmen, V,
>>Miracleman, From Hell, Small Killing) and present problems or
>>weaknesses rather than merely "question". [ And yes, there are
>>weaknesess, I've pointed some of them out myself.]
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't people been doing just that to
>Watchmen since it came out? I know I've heard well-constructed
>criticism of the way Moore went off into left field for the last two
>issues.
I guess I wasn't clear enough in my comment. Of course there is
criticism of Moore's work (I've done it myself). I was simply saying
that I would like to see people who question Moore's status as a
great writer present solid criticism of his work rather than merely
"question"
Abhijit
Abhijit Khale
lim...@math.orst.edu (Douglas Limmer) writes:
>>I'm curious if you could point out where I did or ever have referred to
>>Alan Moore as a "god"?
>You didn't. (Well, I'll assume you didn't -- I don't feel like digging
>through DejaNews to verify it. :-) I wasn't talking specifically
>about _you_, but about the many people who say "Alan Moore is the best
>writer since sliced bread" and quote poetic phrases as "proof". Other
>support usually isn't offered until someone (like me) points out that
>imagery alone does not a good writer make.
When I praise Moore's work, I don't feel that I have to go out of my
way to mention everything I like about it. I wasn't quoting proof
either, simply mentioning phrases I liked.
If you were interested in obtaining specific comments about why people
like Moore's work, then may I suggest that there are more diplomatic
means of obtaining it than saying that his prose is like that of a
tenth grader ?
>Huh? I wasn't knocking _him_. _Watchmen_ was pretty good. :-)
>_Supreme_ 42 was cute for the first read, but I wouldn't mind if it
>got lost somewhere now. Similarly for his _Spawn_ issue (#10?).
Neither Supreme nor Spawn can be considered even average Moore work.
Abhijit
Abhijit Khale
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>In article <52pvmp$1...@rac1.wam.umd.edu>,
>Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>>However, I would be interested to know why Johanna doesn't like him.
>Mainly because of the overrated claims made by his supporters. I heard such
>great things about his writing that it just couldn't live up to it (much
>like Kingdom Come). I mean, yes, the stories are good, but the florid prose
>can be a bit much.
Not correct for any of his recent work: Big Numbers, From Hell, Small
Killing etc. Its not even true for Watchmen, with the exception of the
text pages.
Some of his early work does go a bit overboard at times, but some of
his most effective phrases are very compact.
And personally, I like reading a writer who has the courage to spend
an entire issue talking about the architecture of London, or spends
whole issues discussing freedom, anarchy and justice or try and write
a whole series about mathematics. Not to mention the amazing breadth
and depth of his research, and his highly complex plotting.
Abhijit
Abhijit Khale
Patrick O'Duffy <red...@bluesky.net.au> writes:
> Actually, I think that was the year I compared SANDMAN to Tolkien
>for my SF class (SANDMAN won),
Well, we're wandering into Vertigo territory, but I'm not sure I'd
really compare the two because they're completely different types of
fantasy. I would maybe compare Tolkein with Robert Jordan :-).
Kevin J. Maroney
chi...@fred.aurora.edu wrote:
> But, Image killed [Moore], in much the same way The Cosby show made Bill
>Cosby unfunny, and all he produces now is dreck, more or less on a par
>with all the other dreck out there.
Nah. It's much, much better dreck than most of what's out there.
VMillerNY
:::Neither Supreme nor Spawn can be considered even average Moore work.
Actually, I disagree. I think the Supreme issues are great.
Marc Singer
In article <531kjt$3...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Matthew F Johnson <cr...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
> Come to think of it, everytime God performs a miracle, Alan Moore
>runs into the room a few minutes after he's left, looking flustered!
> The way to find out is to see if he reacts when Neil Gaiman
>activates his signal watch ("Zed zed zed zed")...
I have never seen the exact relationship of Neil Gaiman to Alan Moore
described so perfectly.
Marc
Robert Faires
In article <3251a670...@news.orst.edu>, the poesy-minded Douglas
Limmer wrote:
> I _did_ say that poetic phrases alone shouldn't impress people.
< editorial snip >
>
> Well, on my best days, I think I could write poetic phrases as well as
> he. Or almost. It's all the other stuff I have trouble with. :-)
I respectfully submit that it isn't the poetic phrases alone that Moore's
fans are impressed by. It's "the other stuff" in Moore's writing that
makes those "poetic phrases" so effective in the first place. What I
appreciate most about Moore is his grasp of character and mythology. He
strikes me as having a strong sense of the way events and personalities
fit into the dramatic scheme of a character's existence. He's able to draw
the inherent dramatic tension out of the relationship between a Swamp
Thing and an Abby or a Silk Spectre and a Nite Owl or a Justice League and
the non-powered people of Earth or even a Superman and a Krypto and then
characterize that tension in a mere handful of words. Maybe the words
strike you as flowery or overdone; for me, they're more often than not
powerful because I find them dense with meaning.
Robert Faires
Austin, Texas
Douglas Limmer
ons...@auschron.com (Robert Faires) wrote:
>In article <3251a670...@news.orst.edu>, the poesy-minded Douglas
>Limmer wrote:
>> I _did_ say that poetic phrases alone shouldn't impress people.
>< editorial snip >
>> Well, on my best days, I think I could write poetic phrases as well as
>> he. Or almost. It's all the other stuff I have trouble with. :-)
>I respectfully submit that it isn't the poetic phrases alone that Moore's
>fans are impressed by.
Probably not. I assume not. I _hope_ not. What bothers me is that
whenever the subject of Moore's good writing comes up, fans of his
almost always start with pointing out, and _only_ pointing out, the
more poetic phrases as examples. It leaves me with the distinct
impression that _that_ is the major reason why they like his writing.
Of course, there is a lot of other things Moore does which they
eventually get around to pointing out later.
I'm glad that Moore uses poetic phrases. I wish more writers would
use them, when appropriate. But good writers (which includes Alan
Moore) have other, more important, traits which make them good -- like
telling a coherent story, and using good, consistent characterization.
Douglas Limmer -- lim...@math.orst.edu
To answer your question |
Ernie has the Buddha-nature | Matt Cibula,
Bert does not. | national haiku champion, 1995
Johanna Draper
In article <Dyr5u...@deshaw.com>, Abhijit Khale <kh...@deshaw.com> wrote:
>dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>
>Not correct for any of his recent work:
You're right; Lost Girls didn't even have a good story.
David Goldfarb
Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
)I _hope_ not. What bothers me is that
)whenever the subject of Moore's good writing comes up, fans of his
)almost always start with pointing out, and _only_ pointing out, the
)more poetic phrases as examples. It leaves me with the distinct
)impression that _that_ is the major reason why they like his writing.
Stuff like tight plotting and strong, consistent characterization
requires long exposition to praise. Talking about poetic phrases
is much easier -- you just start quoting.
David Goldfarb <*>|"Sunset over Houma. The rains have stopped.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | Clouds like plugs of bloodied cotton wool dab
aste...@slip.net | ineffectually at the slashed wrists of the sky."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Alan Moore
Dave Miller
mho...@mars.execulink.com (Matt and Vicki Holmes) typed:
>dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) wrote:
>>[Moore] and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
>That's hilarious, Johanna!
[Long list of Moore's writing accomplishments snipped.]
The best writer in the world can be overrated if his work doesn't live
up to its praise. Moore is one of my favorite writers in comics.
However, if Moore was considered the best writer in history, then I
would consider Moore to be overrated. The question is not the merit
or lack thereof in Moore's work; the question is whether the quality
of the work matches the praise heaped on it.
Dave Miller
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are
never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -Calvin
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scott Hollifield
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) wrote:
>In article <53782b$q...@herald.concentric.net>,
>Scott Hollifield <sco...@cris.com> wrote:
>>That being said, I really don't think it's too much of a
>>reach to say that he may be the best writer comic books have produced.
>Damning with faint praise?
Only if you don't like any comic book writers.
Marc Singer
In article <538gcs$l...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>In article <53782b$q...@herald.concentric.net>,
>Scott Hollifield <sco...@cris.com> wrote:
>>That being said, I really don't think it's too much of a
>>reach to say that he may be the best writer comic books have produced.
>
>Damning with faint praise?
Okay, so now you're trashing an entire medium because you can't stand
to see Moore get that praise?
Granted, it's easier than actually providing reasons for why Moore isn't
the best or doesn't live up to his praise. But if you truly think so
little of comics as a whole, I'd have to wonder why you spend so much time
here discussing them.
Marc
Matt and Vicki Holmes
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) wrote:
>In article <52f32k$f...@news.orst.edu>,
>Douglas Limmer <lim...@math.orst.edu> wrote:
>>It's just imagery, folks. Some people have done as well, or better,
>>in their high-school English classes -- maybe even me, at times.
>I'm so glad to hear someone else question the "Moore is a god" mindset
>around here. He and Robinson have my votes on "most overrated" writers.
That's hilarious, Johanna! Most of the people writing comics can't
even keep their characters straight or maintain continuity for a year
at a time, and Alan Moore:
- re-invented superheroes with MARVELMAN in the early 80's
- re-vitalized Swamp Thing without violating what had come before
- wrote the comic most people consider the single best series of all
time (THE WATCHMEN)
- made a superteam that had been featured in over 200 issues of their
own title seem brand new and fresh (the JLA, in SWAMP THING (VOL
II) # 24)
- wrote the two definitive "pre-Crisis" Superman tales of the 80's
("For the Man Who Has Everything" and "Whatever Happened to the Man
of Tomorrow?")
- crafted the amazingly-complex V FOR VENDETTA series (which,
incidentally, showed up as the # 1 comic of all time on the 1996
Staros Report, a list NOT dominated by superhero or adventure series)
- made many people who'd never otherwise touch SUPREME with a ten-foot
pole (myself included) give it a try and actually ENJOY it
- writes the critically-acclaimed non-superhero series FROM HELL
during a time when everyone's decrying the fact that publishers are
glutting the market with superhero crap
All of which makes me wonder... just WHAT would he have had to do to
avoid being overrated in your mind? Cure cancer? Free the hostages
in Iran? Balance your country's budget???
Yeah, he's overrated... sure he is.
Matt Holmes
mho...@execulink.com
Now the happy owner of a piece of CONCRETE
original artwork by Paul Chadwick, to go
with the Alan Moore-written piece drawn by
David Lloyd... yah!
Scott Hollifield
ddmi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (Dave Miller) wrote:
>[Long list of Moore's writing accomplishments snipped.]
>The best writer in the world can be overrated if his work doesn't live
>up to its praise. Moore is one of my favorite writers in comics.
>However, if Moore was considered the best writer in history, then I
>would consider Moore to be overrated. The question is not the merit
>or lack thereof in Moore's work; the question is whether the quality
>of the work matches the praise heaped on it.
I don't think anyone's ever claimed that Moore is the best writer in
history. That being said, I really don't think it's too much of a
reach to say that he may be the best writer comic books have produced.
Steve De Young
In article <537ehj$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, maz...@aol.com (Mazerki) wrote:
> ...You know, I'll probably get several flames for this (Bizarro is
> hoping I do), but I don't even like Alan Moore all that much. I mean, "The
> Killing Joke" was okay, but most of his other stuff I really just don't
> care for or about. Getting to the point, I think Moore is quite
> over-rated, just like several superb (in my opinion) writers and artists
> are under-rated, id est Jack Burnley and C.C. Beck (though he does get his
> share of praise, I still think he was one of the greatest comicartists
> ever). But maybe I just have a screw loose...
>
To be honest, I've always felt the same way. Moore is definitely a
competent writer (I've never read a story he wrote that I thought was
either bad or just poorly written), but neither have I ever been
particularly impressed. I think that part of it may lie in the fact that
Moore isn't really a superhero writer, and my favorite comics are
superhero titles. When Moore does a superhero book, it tends to be a book
_about_ superheroes rather than a superhero book proper. I agree with you
about C.C. Beck as well, btw, not to mention other creators like Bill
Finger, John Broome, Irwin Hasen, and several others instantly springing
to my mind who don't get half the respect that they deserve.
--
Steve De Young
sj...@mail.idt.net
Visit the Mr. Miracle Homepage! http://shell.idt.net/~sjdy
Mazerki
...You know, I'll probably get several flames for this (Bizarro is
hoping I do), but I don't even like Alan Moore all that much. I mean, "The
Killing Joke" was okay, but most of his other stuff I really just don't
care for or about. Getting to the point, I think Moore is quite
over-rated, just like several superb (in my opinion) writers and artists
are under-rated, id est Jack Burnley and C.C. Beck (though he does get his
share of praise, I still think he was one of the greatest comicartists
ever). But maybe I just have a screw loose...
-Aaron!