USA Today: Grant Morrison interviewed about "Return of Bruce Wayne"
plausible prose man
the world is Bruce Wayne?
It has been nearly a year since comic book readers last saw Wayne,
better known to most as the original Batman. While battling a god-like
villain named Darkseid during DC Comics' Final Crisis series, Batman
was hit by an energy beam that sent him hurling out of control to an
unknown place in time. Bruce Wayne hasn't been seen or heard from
since. Until now.
In 2010, DC Comics will launch a new series created and written by
legendary comic book scribe Grant Morrison. Batman: The Return of
Bruce Wayne finds the original Batman trying to reclaim his memory,
his identity and his proper place in time and space. The series marks
the return of one of comic book's most iconic characters and, Morrison
says, begins an important new chapter in a complex series of Batman
stories that the author has been developing and intertwining over the
past five years. "
http://www.usatoday.com/life/comics/2009-12-09-morrison-bruce-wayne-st_N.htm
Some nice sketches of "Pirate Batman" and "Caveman Batman" by Andy
Kubert. At first glance this seems very derivative of "Elseworlds,"
obviously, and I wonder if Morrison will throw in some allusions to
those "time travel through hypnosis" stories, like origin of the
Batcave.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
I'm intrigued by Morrison referring to Batman's current situation as "the
ultimate trap". Because he's used that phrase before to describe one
possible effect of being hit by the Omega Beams.
In which case, Batman isn't actually in the past at all (thereby
explaining why time travellers can't come and rescue him), he's in a
sequence of parallel universes generated by his own mind.
Interestingly, this fits rather neatly with Neil Gaimain's funeral story.
--
Dave
People say nothing rhymes with orange, but it doesn't.
Scott Eiler
wrote:
> In which case, Batman isn't actually in the past at all (thereby
> explaining why time travellers can't come and rescue him), he's in a
> sequence of parallel universes generated by his own mind.
I agree it's more fun to see Batman get out of the caveman age
himself, but I'll be really surprised if time travellers *can't* set
their wayback machines for Elseworlds.
grinningdemon
<daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
Except we already know from Red Robin that he is actually in the
past...Tim found the bat he carved in the cave wall at the end of FC.
plausible prose man
wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2009, plausible prose man <Georgefha...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm intrigued by Morrison referring to Batman's current situation as "the
> ultimate trap". Because he's used that phrase before to describe one
> possible effect of being hit by the Omega Beams.
>
> In which case, Batman isn't actually in the past at all (thereby
> explaining why time travellers can't come and rescue him), he's in a
> sequence of parallel universes generated by his own mind.
>
> Interestingly, this fits rather neatly with Neil Gaimain's funeral story.
Yeah, that's something I thought, too, when I read "Whatever Happened
to the Caped Crusader." I recall, but cannot locate, Gaimain
addressing this in a statement to the effect that if you want his
story to be connected to Darkseid's Omega Effect, well, it can be, but
that wasn't really his intention, either.
grinningdemon
Gaiman set out to write a story that wasn't at all dependent on the
current circumstances of the character...he wanted a story that would
truly stand alone and hold up over the years...I think he did what he
set out to do (even though I wasn't personally impressed with the
results).
Billy Bissette
news:0ekfi5ltnbrsdu8jt...@4ax.com:
Red Robin isn't Morrison. It could be another case of DC Editorial
not doing its job.
grinningdemon
Well, since the whole book is centered on Tim searching for Bruce
Wayne, I would like to think they know where the story is heading.
Billy Bissette
news:7nigi5thuf0vq0ghp...@4ax.com:
You have to consider the whole New Gods stuff that went on because
Editorial didn't do its job keeping things straight for Final Crisis.
grinningdemon
<bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
That is true...but after all the criticism they took for that, I would
like to think they would have learned their lesson...but I may be
giving them too much credit.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> On 15 Dec 2009 12:12:19 GMT, Daibhid Ceanaideach
> <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On 13 Dec 2009, plausible prose man <George...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Where in the world is Bruce Wayne? Or, to be more accurate, when in
>>> the world is Bruce Wayne?
>>> It has been nearly a year since comic book readers last saw Wayne,
>>> better known to most as the original Batman. While battling a
>>> god-like villain named Darkseid during DC Comics' Final Crisis
>>> series, Batman was hit by an energy beam that sent him hurling out
>>> of control to an unknown place in time. Bruce Wayne hasn't been seen
>>> or heard from since. Until now.
>>>
>>> In 2010, DC Comics will launch a new series created and written by
>>> legendary comic book scribe Grant Morrison. Batman: The Return of
>>> Bruce Wayne finds the original Batman trying to reclaim his memory,
>>> his identity and his proper place in time and space. The series
>>> marks the return of one of comic book's most iconic characters and,
>>> Morrison says, begins an important new chapter in a complex series
>>> of Batman stories that the author has been developing and
>>> intertwining over the past five years. "
>>>
>>> http://www.usatoday.com/life/comics/2009-12-09-morrison-bruce-wayne-s
>>> t_ N.htm
>>>
>>> Some nice sketches of "Pirate Batman" and "Caveman Batman" by Andy
>>> Kubert. At first glance this seems very derivative of "Elseworlds,"
>>> obviously, and I wonder if Morrison will throw in some allusions to
>>> those "time travel through hypnosis" stories, like origin of the
>>> Batcave.
>>
>>I'm intrigued by Morrison referring to Batman's current situation as
>>"the ultimate trap". Because he's used that phrase before to describe
>>one possible effect of being hit by the Omega Beams.
>>
>>In which case, Batman isn't actually in the past at all (thereby
>>explaining why time travellers can't come and rescue him), he's in a
>>sequence of parallel universes generated by his own mind.
>>
>>Interestingly, this fits rather neatly with Neil Gaimain's funeral
>>story.
>
> Except we already know from Red Robin that he is actually in the
> past...Tim found the bat he carved in the cave wall at the end of FC.
Oh, right. Forgot about that.
plausible prose man
In comic books and strips, sometimes characters who travel into the
past in their "own mind" are often able to put some artifact into the
past or bring some artifact into the present with them, when they
return. I'm sure we've all seen a Dennis the Menace cartoon where he
has to write about the first Thanksgiving, and he meets a man dressed
like a pilgrim and they go back to pilgrim town and Dennis menaces the
first Thanksgiving, and then his poor mother's waking him up for
school the next day, and he thinks something like "It was all just a
dream...or was it!" and he reaches into his pocket and its full of
gravy and turkey feathers, or something. I recall something along
those lines in a telling of the origin of the bat-cave.
Duggy
> That is true...but after all the criticism they took for that, I would
> like to think they would have learned their lesson...but I may be
> giving them too much credit.
Did they learn every other time the same sort of thing happened?
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
I don't remember any other "events" with such a severe disconnect
between the main story and the lead in stories.
Duggy
> I don't remember any other "events" with such a severe disconnect
> between the main story and the lead in stories.
Well, most events don't have that big a lead in, but I conceed your
point.
===
= DUG.
===
black...@aol.com
one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
trying to find his way back to the present place and time. No more
multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
grinningdemon
I don't think it makes any kind of sense...and some of that stuff has
no business being in continuity anymore...hell, the period Morrison
tried so hard to emulate is the one time in the history of the
character when the book almost got cancelled...that alone should tell
him to leave it alone...and several of those elseworlds are now a part
of the new multiverse so they likely won't be tied into this at
all...and that pirate Batman design doesn't even look remotely like
the Elseworlds version did.
Morrison just needs to wrap up his little reign of terror on Batman
and move on to fucking up the next character...Wonder Woman perhaps?
It's not like the book can get much worse anyway.
plausible prose man
wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:05:09 -0800 (PST), "blackje...@aol.com"
>
> <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
> >one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
> >some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
> >realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
> >Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
> >Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
> >trying to find his way back to the present place and time. No more
> >multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
> >continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
> >together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
> >away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
> >in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>
> I don't think it makes any kind of sense...and some of that stuff has
> no business being in continuity anymore
I don't think the Batwoman we saw in a couple of flashback issues
fits well with the current version,
> but...hell, the period Morrison
> tried so hard to emulate is the one time in the history of the
> character when the book almost got cancelled.
If DC had to justify the ongoing publication based solely on revenue
from the comics, they'd be largely out of business by now.
>..that alone should tell
> him to leave it alone.
::shrugs:: as a small boy, reading the covers off of Batman 30's to
the 70's, well, I was fascinated by the idea of Batmite and Ace, the
Bathound, and Bat-girl and Batwoman.
>..and several of those elseworlds are now a part
> of the new multiverse so they likely won't be tied into this at
> all...and that pirate Batman design doesn't even look remotely like
> the Elseworlds version did.
I would probably agree its wrong-headed to try to work any given
Elseworld story into Batman's journey through the past.
grinningdemon
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Dec 26, 12:38�am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:05:09 -0800 (PST), "blackje...@aol.com"
>>
>> <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
>> >one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
>> >some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
>> >realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
>> >Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
>> >Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
>> >trying to find his way back to the present place and time. �No more
>> >multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
>> >continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
>> >together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
>> >away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
>> >in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>>
>> I don't think it makes any kind of sense...and some of that stuff has
>> no business being in continuity anymore
>
> I don't think the Batwoman we saw in a couple of flashback issues
>fits well with the current version,
It doesn't fit at all...if anything, it should be another one of the
52.
>> but...hell, the period Morrison
>> tried so hard to emulate is the one time in the history of the
>> character when the book almost got cancelled.
>
> If DC had to justify the ongoing publication based solely on revenue
>from the comics, they'd be largely out of business by now.
I'm just saying...it's arguably their most popular character who has a
70+ year history and he choses model his stories on the one period in
all that time when the popularity was at an all time low.
>>..that alone should tell
>> him to leave it alone.
>
> ::shrugs:: as a small boy, reading the covers off of Batman 30's to
>the 70's, well, I was fascinated by the idea of Batmite and Ace, the
>Bathound, and Bat-girl and Batwoman.
I like some of those things too...but that doesn't make them fit in
with the current incarnation of Batman...at all.
>>..and several of those elseworlds are now a part
>> of the new multiverse so they likely won't be tied into this at
>> all...and that pirate Batman design doesn't even look remotely like
>> the Elseworlds version did.
>
> I would probably agree its wrong-headed to try to work any given
>Elseworld story into Batman's journey through the past.
Especially since many of those Elseworlds included versions of other
bat-characters who are not on a "journey through the past."
Anlatt the Builder
Keeping one continuity straight is hard enough for most writers.
Trying to incorporate every version of a character from throughout its
publication history into one continuity leads to incomprehension. It
can be a pretty collage, but for the most part it can't really be a
story.
(Byrne sort of did this with Donna Troy, and I've had no idea who
she's been since.)
plausible prose man
> On Dec 25, 9:05 pm, "blackje...@aol.com" <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
> > one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
> > some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
> > realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
> > Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
> > Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
> > trying to find his way back to the present place and time. No more
> > multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
> > continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
> > together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
> > away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
> > in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>
> Keeping one continuity straight is hard enough for most writers.
Particularly down to the no-prize level you guys want to go.
> Trying to incorporate every version of a character from throughout its
> publication history into one continuity leads to incomprehension.
Certainly, it can, but I think this is truer of some characters than
others.
> It
> can be a pretty collage, but for the most part it can't really be a
> story.
I rather liked The Club of Heroes and the Dr. Hurt arc, and then how
they lead together into Batman's "death" and weird little dreams in
the clutches of Darkseid. If I have a complaint, its that Morrison is
a lot better at setting up explanations than he is at delivering on
any of them; he'd mentioned something in interviews about the Black
Glove having had a presence since 'Tec 27, and there's something about
that in the two issues where Bruce is imagining there never was a
Batman, but as it stands we have no idea as to the greater
implications of all that (the Chemical Syndicate owned Monarch playing
cards? )
I see nothing horrible, though, or even contradictory, about the idea
"Prisoner of Three Worlds" was Bruce and Batwoman, who I admit has
some unanswered questions surrounding her, having caught a face full
of weaponized hallucinogens, or the purple and red clad character from
Zur-En-Arrh is Batman's imaginary friend, who later formed the basis
of a post-hypnotic suggestion designed to save Batman in the event of
some brain-washing event, which is, you know, precisely what he would
do.
> (Byrne sort of did this with Donna Troy, and I've had no idea who
> she's been since.)
I only really sort of care who Donna Troy is, especially given she was
concieved in mystery in the first place. This might be a great place
to suggest she's really some some stolen moment of Diana as a teen
ager in a neat little bit of meta- chicken fat, and plus it gives you
a nice out on "so if some of her stories don't add up, well, you know,
you'd expect the occasional bit of anomaly and time flux from someone
who's a little bit of stolen time from the continuity of a clay
sculpture come to life with the spirit of the first victim of domestic
violence."
plausible prose man
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 07:00:19 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
>
>
>
>
>
> <Georgefha...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 26, 12:38 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:05:09 -0800 (PST), "blackje...@aol.com"
>
> >> <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
> >> >one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
> >> >some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
> >> >realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
> >> >Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
> >> >Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
> >> >trying to find his way back to the present place and time. No more
> >> >multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
> >> >continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
> >> >together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
> >> >away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
> >> >in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>
> >> I don't think it makes any kind of sense...and some of that stuff has
> >> no business being in continuity anymore
>
> > I don't think the Batwoman we saw in a couple of flashback issues
> >fits well with the current version,
>
> It doesn't fit at all.
Eh, perhaps there was another Kathy Kane who just happened to be an
earlier version of Batwoman. Four Robins, three Batgirls, how many
legacies of every other hero there ever was, you going to complain
about that? Perhaps Kate sometimes wore a different costume, perhaps
it was part of the halluncination.
>..if anything, it should be another one of the
> 52.
I've said this before, but it seems to go unacknowledged, but its
really brilliant. Did you ever notice that Batwoman, who was
introduced at least in part in response to Wertham's allegations of
homosexual overtones in the world of Bruce and Dick, mainly served to
make the strip overtly gay rather than just sort of vaguely gay. Every
issue with Batwoman has a montage of her putting on her makeup and
various other acoutrements of femininity, and explains how they've
been modified to be crime fighting equipment. Every time the girls
want to get mushy, about once a story, the boys respond by getting all
tongue tied and red-faced, until Bruce and Dick tell the Kathy and
Bettie they have no room in their lives for women, and the Dynamic Duo
declare their devotion to the law, and each other.
Now, ironically, that she's out gay, the book's more heterosexual than
ever, what with its main character being straight out of an Andrew
Blake video.
Anyway, Morrison's only sort of saying any of that "happened." Oh,
bruce might have images in his head that resemble some of the content
of those comics, but "The Super-Batman of Planet X" is mainly a 12
year old's fantasy that a perfect man could swoop down from the sky
and save people like his parents, I would think "The Mad Monk" is of a
piece with that, Prisoner of Three Worlds mainly took place in a
warehouse, when Bruce and a Batwoman to be justified in a matter of
your choosing were tripping balls, etc.
> >> but...hell, the period Morrison
> >> tried so hard to emulate is the one time in the history of the
> >> character when the book almost got cancelled.
>
> > If DC had to justify the ongoing publication based solely on revenue
> >from the comics, they'd be largely out of business by now.
>
> I'm just saying...it's arguably their most popular character who has a
> 70+ year history
Batman is almost certainly DC's most popular character.
>and he choses model his stories on the one period in
> all that time when the popularity was at an all time low.
I was told all that Atom Age stuff was enormously popular, in
response to some point I was making that Ace and Bat might and giant
monsters in space and time didn't "stick." I would also note sales in
that era were 5-10 times what they are now.
> >>..that alone should tell
> >> him to leave it alone.
>
> > ::shrugs:: as a small boy, reading the covers off of Batman 30's to
> >the 70's, well, I was fascinated by the idea of Batmite and Ace, the
> >Bathound, and Bat-girl and Batwoman.
>
> I like some of those things too...but that doesn't make them fit in
> with the current incarnation of Batman...at all.
I think Batmite works insofar as he's been used so far. Since I'd
really only want to see about a panel's worth of Ace, well, it seems
feasible enough to say Dick had a dog there, and he might've put a
mask on him, and perhaps that dog even helped out on a case or two. I
don't know, I'm not married to the idea.
As for Batwoman, well...it's possible there were two batwomen, as I
mentioned.
>
> >>..and several of those elseworlds are now a part
> >> of the new multiverse so they likely won't be tied into this at
> >> all...and that pirate Batman design doesn't even look remotely like
> >> the Elseworlds version did.
>
> > I would probably agree its wrong-headed to try to work any given
> >Elseworld story into Batman's journey through the past.
>
> Especially since many of those Elseworlds included versions of other
> bat-characters who are not on a "journey through the past."-
Right, and most of them don't seem to be...I would assume in each
chapter, we'll see Bruce has some mini-quest to facilitate his next
jump through imago-time or whatever, while Agents Three Batman only
has to fight the bad guys, he doesn't have to find the magic nickel or
whatever. Still, I'll sure like his new story a lot less if GM doesn't
figure out some allusion to the rogue's gallery and general history of
Gotham city or the overall history of the DCU. I'm sure we'll see Ra's
and maybe Vandall Savage, and I think I even read something about
Jonah Hex.
Tim Turnip
Morrison's Batman is not at all about repairing holes in continuity;
it wasn't that long ago that Morrison was in fact heavily slammed here
and elsewhere for daring to suggest that it's fans who are a trifle
over-concerned with continuity details. His inclusion of the Silver
Age elements is about taking those archaic concepts and looking at
them through a new, modern prism.
grinningdemon
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Dec 26, 11:35�pm, Anlatt the Builder <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 25, 9:05�pm, "blackje...@aol.com" <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
>> > one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
>> > some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
>> > realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
>> > Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
>> > Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
>> > trying to find his way back to the present place and time. �No more
>> > multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
>> > continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
>> > together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
>> > away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
>> > in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>>
>> Keeping one continuity straight is hard enough for most writers.
>
> Particularly down to the no-prize level you guys want to go.
>
>> Trying to incorporate every version of a character from throughout its
>> publication history into one continuity leads to incomprehension.
>
> Certainly, it can, but I think this is truer of some characters than
>others.
Of course...but, when you're talking about characters with 70+ years
of history, there really isn't anyway you can make that work.
>> It
>> can be a pretty collage, but for the most part it can't really be a
>> story.
>
> I rather liked The Club of Heroes and the Dr. Hurt arc, and then how
>they lead together into Batman's "death" and weird little dreams in
>the clutches of Darkseid. If I have a complaint, its that Morrison is
>a lot better at setting up explanations than he is at delivering on
>any of them; he'd mentioned something in interviews about the Black
>Glove having had a presence since 'Tec 27, and there's something about
>that in the two issues where Bruce is imagining there never was a
>Batman, but as it stands we have no idea as to the greater
>implications of all that (the Chemical Syndicate owned Monarch playing
>cards? )
His whole run seems rather pretentious to me...it just seems like
everything he writes these days is some grand experiment to see
exactly how far he can push before he ruins a character...and I don't
appreciate...if he were more interested in telling good stories than
in leaving his mark on the characters (as he was on JLA and his
earlier work), he'd be a much better writer.
> I see nothing horrible, though, or even contradictory, about the idea
>"Prisoner of Three Worlds" was Bruce and Batwoman, who I admit has
>some unanswered questions surrounding her, having caught a face full
>of weaponized hallucinogens, or the purple and red clad character from
>Zur-En-Arrh is Batman's imaginary friend, who later formed the basis
>of a post-hypnotic suggestion designed to save Batman in the event of
>some brain-washing event, which is, you know, precisely what he would
>do.
>
>
>> (Byrne sort of did this with Donna Troy, and I've had no idea who
>> she's been since.)
>
>I only really sort of care who Donna Troy is, especially given she was
>concieved in mystery in the first place. This might be a great place
>to suggest she's really some some stolen moment of Diana as a teen
That's pretty much exactly what she is...she's a piece of Diana's soul
given form to be her childhood playmate or "sister"...it's everything
after that gets complicated.
grinningdemon
An earlier Kathy Kane who was Batwoman? Don't you think that is
stretching the limits of believability just a bit? And, as far as
we've seen, Batman (the real one) has never even met the current
Batwoman (at least not in costume).
>>..if anything, it should be another one of the
>> 52.
>
> I've said this before, but it seems to go unacknowledged, but its
>really brilliant. Did you ever notice that Batwoman, who was
>introduced at least in part in response to Wertham's allegations of
>homosexual overtones in the world of Bruce and Dick, mainly served to
>make the strip overtly gay rather than just sort of vaguely gay. Every
>issue with Batwoman has a montage of her putting on her makeup and
>various other acoutrements of femininity, and explains how they've
>been modified to be crime fighting equipment. Every time the girls
>want to get mushy, about once a story, the boys respond by getting all
>tongue tied and red-faced, until Bruce and Dick tell the Kathy and
>Bettie they have no room in their lives for women, and the Dynamic Duo
>declare their devotion to the law, and each other.
>
>Now, ironically, that she's out gay, the book's more heterosexual than
>ever, what with its main character being straight out of an Andrew
>Blake video.
I'm sure the creators had something like that in mind when they came
up with the idea in 52...though I'd bet the driving force behind
making her gay was how much hype they knew it would generate...they
really missed the ball on that one by not taking advantage of the hype
surrounding her introdcution to really push the character.
>Anyway, Morrison's only sort of saying any of that "happened." Oh,
>bruce might have images in his head that resemble some of the content
>of those comics, but "The Super-Batman of Planet X" is mainly a 12
>year old's fantasy that a perfect man could swoop down from the sky
>and save people like his parents, I would think "The Mad Monk" is of a
>piece with that, Prisoner of Three Worlds mainly took place in a
>warehouse, when Bruce and a Batwoman to be justified in a matter of
>your choosing were tripping balls, etc.
I thought that Matt Wagner did this so much better than Morrison with
his "Monster Men" and "Mad Monk" series...he took the hokey old golden
age ideas and incorporated them into a modern Batman story that
actually seems to fit this incarnation of the character rather than
seeming like a bad acid trip.
>> >> but...hell, the period Morrison
>> >> tried so hard to emulate is the one time in the history of the
>> >> character when the book almost got cancelled.
>>
>> > If DC had to justify the ongoing publication based solely on revenue
>> >from the comics, they'd be largely out of business by now.
>>
>> I'm just saying...it's arguably their most popular character who has a
>> 70+ year history
>
> Batman is almost certainly DC's most popular character.
I think DC still claims it's Superman but, yeah, it's fairly obvious
to me that is no longer the case.
>>and he choses model his stories on the one period in
>> all that time when the popularity was at an all time low.
>
> I was told all that Atom Age stuff was enormously popular, in
>response to some point I was making that Ace and Bat might and giant
>monsters in space and time didn't "stick." I would also note sales in
>that era were 5-10 times what they are now.
All I've ever heard was that late 50s early 60s Batman was the one
time sales dipped so low that they nearly pulled the plug and the book
was only saved by the initial popularity of the TV show...and, yes,
sales were much higher back then...but sales on comics in general were
much higher back then...and prices were much lower.
>> >>..that alone should tell
>> >> him to leave it alone.
>>
>> > ::shrugs:: as a small boy, reading the covers off of Batman 30's to
>> >the 70's, well, I was fascinated by the idea of Batmite and Ace, the
>> >Bathound, and Bat-girl and Batwoman.
>>
>> I like some of those things too...but that doesn't make them fit in
>> with the current incarnation of Batman...at all.
>
> I think Batmite works insofar as he's been used so far. Since I'd
>really only want to see about a panel's worth of Ace, well, it seems
>feasible enough to say Dick had a dog there, and he might've put a
>mask on him, and perhaps that dog even helped out on a case or two. I
>don't know, I'm not married to the idea.
It's the kind of silly idea that fit in very well back in the 50s and
is best left there.
> As for Batwoman, well...it's possible there were two batwomen, as I
>mentioned.
I think you're reaching.
>> >>..and several of those elseworlds are now a part
>> >> of the new multiverse so they likely won't be tied into this at
>> >> all...and that pirate Batman design doesn't even look remotely like
>> >> the Elseworlds version did.
>>
>> > I would probably agree its wrong-headed to try to work any given
>> >Elseworld story into Batman's journey through the past.
>>
>> Especially since many of those Elseworlds included versions of other
>> bat-characters who are not on a "journey through the past."-
>
> Right, and most of them don't seem to be...I would assume in each
>chapter, we'll see Bruce has some mini-quest to facilitate his next
>jump through imago-time or whatever, while Agents Three Batman only
>has to fight the bad guys, he doesn't have to find the magic nickel or
>whatever. Still, I'll sure like his new story a lot less if GM doesn't
>figure out some allusion to the rogue's gallery and general history of
>Gotham city or the overall history of the DCU. I'm sure we'll see Ra's
>and maybe Vandall Savage, and I think I even read something about
>Jonah Hex.
That's the kind of thing I would expect if someone like Geoff Johns
were writing it...with Morrison, if there is any reference to DC
history at all, it will probably be something so obscure that he will
have to point it out to most fans in interviews...he's kind of like
Alan Moore in that regard.
grinningdemon
I know exactly what he's trying to do...and I don't think it
works...unless you're on drugs.
Anlatt the Builder
> On Dec 26, 11:35 pm, Anlatt the Builder <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 25, 9:05 pm, "blackje...@aol.com" <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
> > > one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
> > > some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
> > > realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
> > > Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
> > > Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
> > > trying to find his way back to the present place and time. No more
> > > multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
> > > continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
> > > together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
> > > away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
> > > in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>
> > Keeping one continuity straight is hard enough for most writers.
>
> Particularly down to the no-prize level you guys want to go.
>
>
"Us guys" think of it as Lord of the Rings level, modified by certain
market constraints and the fact that the stories are supposedly
happening in "real time" rather than some distant past or future,
which makes duration a little wonky. If by "you guys" you meant me.
plausible prose man
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:33:28 -0800 (PST), plausible prose man
> >> Trying to incorporate every version of a character from throughout its
> >> publication history into one continuity leads to incomprehension.
>
> > Certainly, it can, but I think this is truer of some characters than
> >others.
>
> Of course...but, when you're talking about characters with 70+ years
> of history, there really isn't anyway you can make that work.
The timeline I read Grant break down more or less works. One man's
life could encompass the different eras of Batman comics. Let's see
how Morrison broke it down:
"So before starting the book, I read through every Batman story I own
and tried to synthesize all of the portrayals - from the '30s to the
present day - and all that history into the real life of a single
extraordinary man. When you condense nearly 80 years of Batman's
adventures into a little more than ten years of Bruce Wayne's life,
his descent into grimness becomes not only clear but quite
understandable! And the need to get him out of it is even more
urgent.
The very rough timeline I have in my head runs as follows - 19 year
old Bruce Wayne returns from his journey around the world and becomes
the (1930s style) Dark Avenger Gothic Vigilante Batman for his first
year of adventures. Then, aged 20, he meets Robin and his whole
outlook changes - now he has responsibilities, he becomes less
reckless, now he has a partner, he lightens up and learns to have fun
again for the first time since his parents died. The police stop
chasing him, the Joker stops killing and becomes a playful crime
clown, and Gotham is bright and crazy like Vegas. Batman's having the
time of his life in his early 20's, fighting colorful villains and
monsters with his irrepressible young pal.
But by the time he's in his mid-20s things are starting to go wrong -
the first Robin leaves to go to college and hang out with the Teen
Titans. Batman enjoys a period as a swinging bachelor for a couple of
years but it's not long before the hammerblows start to fall - in
rapid succession, the now-homicidal Joker kills Jason Todd, the new
Robin, and maims Barbara (Batgirl ) Gordon, Bane breaks Batman's back,
then Gotham is devastated by earthquakes, plagues and urban warfare,
the Joker kills Jim Gordon's beloved wife, Jason Todd returns
corrupted, and a betrayal by his superhero friends leads Batman to the
creation of Brother Eye and leads him on to Infinite Crisis where
Batman winds up pointing a gun at Alexander Luthor's head before
deciding to leave Gotham for a year,
Thinking about it this way, the grim Batman of the last decade or so
makes a whole lot of sense - the guy went from cool, assured
crimefighter to shattered ***-up, barely clinging on with his
fingernails. His mission, his life and his sanity had all gone off the
rails. His confidence was shot. After a few years of relentless pain,
bad luck and betrayal like Batman's had, any normal man would be
canceling the papers, pulling the blinds, then pulling the trigger. We
had to address the effect of these tragedies and then move him beyond
them. "
I think that's all pretty workable, and you ought to be happy they're
getting away from demented Batman.
> >> It
> >> can be a pretty collage, but for the most part it can't really be a
> >> story.
>
> > I rather liked The Club of Heroes and the Dr. Hurt arc, and then how
> >they lead together into Batman's "death" and weird little dreams in
> >the clutches of Darkseid. If I have a complaint, its that Morrison is
> >a lot better at setting up explanations than he is at delivering on
> >any of them; he'd mentioned something in interviews about the Black
> >Glove having had a presence since 'Tec 27, and there's something about
> >that in the two issues where Bruce is imagining there never was a
> >Batman, but as it stands we have no idea as to the greater
> >implications of all that (the Chemical Syndicate owned Monarch playing
> >cards? )
>
> His whole run seems rather pretentious to me...it just seems like
> everything he writes these days is some grand experiment to see
> exactly how far he can push before he ruins a character.
I guess I'm wondering where you're seeing the ruination
>..and I don't
> appreciate...if he were more interested in telling good stories than
> in leaving his mark on the characters (as he was on JLA and his
> earlier work), he'd be a much better writer.
Well, anyway.
>
> > I see nothing horrible, though, or even contradictory, about the idea
> >"Prisoner of Three Worlds" was Bruce and Batwoman, who I admit has
> >some unanswered questions surrounding her, having caught a face full
> >of weaponized hallucinogens, or the purple and red clad character from
> >Zur-En-Arrh is Batman's imaginary friend, who later formed the basis
> >of a post-hypnotic suggestion designed to save Batman in the event of
> >some brain-washing event, which is, you know, precisely what he would
> >do.
>
> >> (Byrne sort of did this with Donna Troy, and I've had no idea who
> >> she's been since.)
>
> >I only really sort of care who Donna Troy is, especially given she was
> >concieved in mystery in the first place. This might be a great place
> >to suggest she's really some some stolen moment of Diana as a teen
>
> That's pretty much exactly what she is.
See, I thought she was Debra Winger, rescued from a fire and raised
on Paradise Island and treated with amazonian super-science to be
amazony.
plausible prose man
> >> > I don't think the Batwoman we saw in a couple of flashback issues
> >> >fits well with the current version,
>
> >> It doesn't fit at all.
>
> > Eh, perhaps there was another Kathy Kane who just happened to be an
> >earlier version of Batwoman. Four Robins, three Batgirls, how many
> >legacies of every other hero there ever was, you going to complain
> >about that? Perhaps Kate sometimes wore a different costume, perhaps
> >it was part of the halluncination.
>
> An earlier Kathy Kane who was Batwoman?
Sure.
> Don't you think that is
> stretching the limits of believability just a bit?
So the first Batwoman on earth-all of them was an amalgam of earth 1
and 2, who either retired as crime in gotham city became lethal again,
or was murdered by...Bronze Tiger, wasn't it? and this one is, or
would've been, earth eight's Batwoman.
> And, as far as
> we've seen, Batman (the real one) has never even met the current
> Batwoman (at least not in costume).
Don't think about ways it can't work, think about ways it can.
I couldn't agree less.
> he took the hokey old golden
> age ideas
and totally missed what made them so loopy and demented and charming,
and wrote bad, incoherent pot boilers around them. Plus, he can't draw
at a professional level.
> >>and he choses model his stories on the one period in
> >> all that time when the popularity was at an all time low.
>
> > I was told all that Atom Age stuff was enormously popular, in
> >response to some point I was making that Ace and Bat might and giant
> >monsters in space and time didn't "stick." I would also note sales in
> >that era were 5-10 times what they are now.
>
> All I've ever heard was that late 50s early 60s Batman was the one
> time sales dipped so low that they nearly pulled the plug and the book
> was only saved by the initial popularity of the TV show.
I've heard that too, sure. But I think that was a long time, and
sales were comparatively higher than in all subsequent eras, unless
there's been a movie out recently.
> >> >>..that alone should tell
> >> >> him to leave it alone.
>
> >> > ::shrugs:: as a small boy, reading the covers off of Batman 30's to
> >> >the 70's, well, I was fascinated by the idea of Batmite and Ace, the
> >> >Bathound, and Bat-girl and Batwoman.
>
> >> I like some of those things too...but that doesn't make them fit in
> >> with the current incarnation of Batman...at all.
>
> > I think Batmite works insofar as he's been used so far. Since I'd
> >really only want to see about a panel's worth of Ace, well, it seems
> >feasible enough to say Dick had a dog there, and he might've put a
> >mask on him, and perhaps that dog even helped out on a case or two. I
> >don't know, I'm not married to the idea.
>
> It's the kind of silly idea that fit in very well back in the 50s and
> is best left there.
> > As for Batwoman, well...it's possible there were two batwomen, as I
> >mentioned.
>
> I think you're reaching.
I won't necessarily deny that, but in a world with a couple Kent
Nelsons to go around, well, quite a lot is possible, and its agreeable
enough to the smallish bit of mental energy I really need to focus on
it.
plausible prose man
> On Dec 27, 8:33 am, plausible prose man <Georgefha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 26, 11:35 pm, Anlatt the Builder <tirh...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 25, 9:05 pm, "blackje...@aol.com" <blackje...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Trying to look at the big picture, I see Morrison as trying to create
> > > > one "continuity" for Batman. He's already found ways to incorporate
> > > > some of the crazier Silver Age story elements into modern stories in a
> > > > realistic way. Batmite, Batman visiting Planet X, "Robin Dies at
> > > > Dawn," etc. Now I suppose Morrison is trying to say that all the
> > > > Batman Elseworlds stories are adventures Bruce went on while he was
> > > > trying to find his way back to the present place and time. No more
> > > > multiple earths, multiple universes, or recons, or alternative
> > > > continuties. Everything is a piece of the puzzle that all somehow fits
> > > > together. That's what I think Morrison has in mind. Trying to explain
> > > > away all the little mistakes, oversights, inaccuracies, and anomalies
> > > > in a way that actually kind of makes sense.
>
> > > Keeping one continuity straight is hard enough for most writers.
>
> > Particularly down to the no-prize level you guys want to go.
>
> "Us guys" think of it as Lord of the Rings level,
That's a pretty good analogy for what Morrison is doing here:
Remember how Tolkein retconned parts of the hobbit, so that the
necromancer was really Sauron, and "riddles in the dark" was just some
cute little lie the ring helped Bilbo come up with.
black...@aol.com
Yes and all the Sliver Age stuff was hallucinations caused by drugs
either given to him by villians or taken as some sort of
experimentation. That's Grant idea, although I don't think DC wants to
admit that their most popular character experimented with drugs. But I
agree that it could all be part of one man's life, if you ignore the
fact that there were once two different Batman's on two different
Earths, that there was two different Jason Todds, and if your willing
to admit Bruce is older than 39 then I think you can get it all into
one man's life.
grinningdemon
His sequence of events works...but not the times he gives...for one
thing, he has to have been Batman on his own for a few years before
Robin comes along...and Dick was only about 10 when he showed up so
it's more than just a few years before he's off to college...and that
last part condenses about 20 years of continuity down to what seems
like a very short period of time.
That said, none of what is stated above contradicts the normal
sequence they've been using for years now...but it also doesn't
mention anything about his alien psychadelic, fighting days...which
is the period Morrison keeps referencing.
>> >> It
>> >> can be a pretty collage, but for the most part it can't really be a
>> >> story.
>>
>> > I rather liked The Club of Heroes and the Dr. Hurt arc, and then how
>> >they lead together into Batman's "death" and weird little dreams in
>> >the clutches of Darkseid. If I have a complaint, its that Morrison is
>> >a lot better at setting up explanations than he is at delivering on
>> >any of them; he'd mentioned something in interviews about the Black
>> >Glove having had a presence since 'Tec 27, and there's something about
>> >that in the two issues where Bruce is imagining there never was a
>> >Batman, but as it stands we have no idea as to the greater
>> >implications of all that (the Chemical Syndicate owned Monarch playing
>> >cards? )
>>
>> His whole run seems rather pretentious to me...it just seems like
>> everything he writes these days is some grand experiment to see
>> exactly how far he can push before he ruins a character.
>
> I guess I'm wondering where you're seeing the ruination
He hasn't ruined Batman...yet (although I think his "death" and
replacement is total bullshit)...but he has royally fucked up the New
Gods and did a pretty good working over of the X-Men during his reign
of terror (most of which has been retconned out, fortunately).
>>..and I don't
>> appreciate...if he were more interested in telling good stories than
>> in leaving his mark on the characters (as he was on JLA and his
>> earlier work), he'd be a much better writer.
>
> Well, anyway.
>
>>
>> > I see nothing horrible, though, or even contradictory, about the idea
>> >"Prisoner of Three Worlds" was Bruce and Batwoman, who I admit has
>> >some unanswered questions surrounding her, having caught a face full
>> >of weaponized hallucinogens, or the purple and red clad character from
>> >Zur-En-Arrh is Batman's imaginary friend, who later formed the basis
>> >of a post-hypnotic suggestion designed to save Batman in the event of
>> >some brain-washing event, which is, you know, precisely what he would
>> >do.
>>
>> >> (Byrne sort of did this with Donna Troy, and I've had no idea who
>> >> she's been since.)
>>
>> >I only really sort of care who Donna Troy is, especially given she was
>> >concieved in mystery in the first place. This might be a great place
>> >to suggest she's really some some stolen moment of Diana as a teen
>>
>> That's pretty much exactly what she is.
>
> See, I thought she was Debra Winger, rescued from a fire and raised
>on Paradise Island and treated with amazonian super-science to be
>amazony.
That was one of the many fake lives Dark Angel made her live through
that changed her from essentially being Diana's clone into a unique
character in her own right (which is where her origin slides of the
rails)...although I don't think Debra Winger was the name used.
grinningdemon
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Dec 27, 9:00�pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> >> > I don't think the Batwoman we saw in a couple of flashback issues
>> >> >fits well with the current version,
>>
>> >> It doesn't fit at all.
>>
>> > Eh, perhaps there was another Kathy Kane who just happened to be an
>> >earlier version of Batwoman. Four Robins, three Batgirls, how many
>> >legacies of every other hero there ever was, you going to complain
>> >about that? Perhaps Kate sometimes wore a different costume, perhaps
>> >it was part of the halluncination.
>>
>> An earlier Kathy Kane who was Batwoman?
>
> Sure.
>
>> �Don't you think that is
>> stretching the limits of believability just a bit? �
>
> So the first Batwoman on earth-all of them was an amalgam of earth 1
>and 2, who either retired as crime in gotham city became lethal again,
>or was murdered by...Bronze Tiger, wasn't it? and this one is, or
>would've been, earth eight's Batwoman.
But that's the thing...this Batwoman has not been presented as a
replacement like the other earth eight characters are...she is a
reboot of the character...the prior incarnation has not come up in
continuity (outside of hallucination) for many years...I don't think
she's even been mentioned since CoIE
>> And, as far as
>> we've seen, Batman (the real one) has never even met the current
>> Batwoman (at least not in costume).
>
> Don't think about ways it can't work, think about ways it can.
Why should I try to make Morrison's garbage work? That's his job.
Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one
because I think those were the best Batman stories DC has produced in
quite a while...certainly since OYL started...I like Matt Wagner's
writing and art...I also loved his Trinity series (although it
definitely can't be in continuity).
>> >>and he choses model his stories on the one period in
>> >> all that time when the popularity was at an all time low.
>>
>> > I was told all that Atom Age stuff was enormously popular, in
>> >response to some point I was making that Ace and Bat might and giant
>> >monsters in space and time didn't "stick." I would also note sales in
>> >that era were 5-10 times what they are now.
>>
>> All I've ever heard was that late 50s early 60s Batman was the one
>> time sales dipped so low that they nearly pulled the plug and the book
>> was only saved by the initial popularity of the TV show.
>
> I've heard that too, sure. But I think that was a long time, and
>sales were comparatively higher than in all subsequent eras, unless
>there's been a movie out recently.
OK, well, even if it were the most popular period in Batman's history
(which is most definitely was NOT), I would still personally think it
was the generally the worst era of Batman and I can't see myself ever
appreciating modern stories drawn from concepts of that era...though
it might be a little easier to take if Morrison hadn't just done one
after another.
>> >> >>..that alone should tell
>> >> >> him to leave it alone.
>>
>> >> > ::shrugs:: as a small boy, reading the covers off of Batman 30's to
>> >> >the 70's, well, I was fascinated by the idea of Batmite and Ace, the
>> >> >Bathound, and Bat-girl and Batwoman.
>>
>> >> I like some of those things too...but that doesn't make them fit in
>> >> with the current incarnation of Batman...at all.
>>
>> > I think Batmite works insofar as he's been used so far. Since I'd
>> >really only want to see about a panel's worth of Ace, well, it seems
>> >feasible enough to say Dick had a dog there, and he might've put a
>> >mask on him, and perhaps that dog even helped out on a case or two. I
>> >don't know, I'm not married to the idea.
>>
>> It's the kind of silly idea that fit in very well back in the 50s and
>> is best left there.
>
>
>> > As for Batwoman, well...it's possible there were two batwomen, as I
>> >mentioned.
>>
>> I think you're reaching.
>
> I won't necessarily deny that, but in a world with a couple Kent
>Nelsons to go around, well, quite a lot is possible, and its agreeable
>enough to the smallish bit of mental energy I really need to focus on
>it.
Don't get me started on how lame the multiple Kent Nelsons and Jim
Corrigans are.
grinningdemon
What he said.
Anlatt the Builder
But the question is whether you're left with a coherent universe. With
Middle-Earth, you are; with the DCU, you're not.
Billy Bissette
news:b587d5be-1a20-4f35...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
The way DC collapses, expands, reboots, and paritially reboots its
universe, Morrison's version is almost as valid as any other.
After all, one decade's multiple Earths is another decade's
singular Earth, and writers (and editorial) have always picked and
chosen what history is preserved from one moment to the next, what
is discarded, what is returned, and what is altered to a new form.
And that was without even the excuse of Hypertime.
Ruben Safir
> until Bruce and Dick tell the Kathy and Bettie they have no room in
> their lives for women, and the Dynamic Duo declare their devotion to the
> law, and each other.
And this, IYO, is "gay"..
You know, sometimes a story written for preteens is just that, a story
written for preteens.
Ruben
plausible prose man
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:04:48 -0800, plausible prose man wrote:
> > until Bruce and Dick tell the Kathy and Bettie they have no room in
> > their lives for women, and the Dynamic Duo declare their devotion to the
> > law, and each other.
>
> And this, IYO, is "gay"..
Now that I'm an adult, yeah, it's hard not to see where someone might
find that subtext, yeah.
> You know, sometimes a story written for preteens is just that, a story
> written for preteens.
Ruben Safir
>> And this, IYO, is "gay"..
>
> Now that I'm an adult, yeah, it's hard not to see where someone might
> find that subtext, yeah.
Well, what happened to you from the age of 9 to whatever adult age you
are at, because this is no gay overtone to it, except for whatever you
want to add to it in your own minds eye. You no longer remember a time
when you and your other male friends didn't prefer male company, were
loyal to each other, and spent lots of private hours together, and most
importantly when you didn't like girls that much, especially when they
invaded your tree house?
yeesh...it takes all kinds to make a world.
Ruben