-- ------------------- ------------------------------------------------ || E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington|| || -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke|| || ----------- || ------------------------------------ || ||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free || || "@" to respond. || Since 1998 || ------------------- ------------------------------------------------ "It's not that I want to punish your success. [...]I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
> I assume he will now rise as a Black Lantern, but since I think DC is >going to use this event to bring a whole slew of characters back to >life I don't think we've seen the last of him.
My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall seems to be.
> My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come > back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that > said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think > the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that > said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall > seems to be.
Note that all the BL rings around Kyle appear to be inert. Note also that those of the fallen BLs are destroyed in the process of felling their bearers. There may not be any functioning extras to spare on Kyle. At the moment.
Further, note that Kyle's own is quite convinced of his passing. GL rings don't usually leave their wearers like that without their being quite fully dead -- and, as we've seen more than once, occasionally not even then. (There =was= that one time in the original JLA run where Hal bumped his head in the shower after getting the message he was needed at the satellite, whereupon the ring went out and absconded with John Stewart. Don't recall seeing the like since.)
-- ------------------- ------------------------------------------------ || E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington|| || -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke|| || ----------- || ------------------------------------ || ||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free || || "@" to respond. || Since 1998 || ------------------- ------------------------------------------------ "It's not that I want to punish your success. [...]I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
>> My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come >> back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that >> said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think >> the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that >> said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall >> seems to be.
>Note that all the BL rings around Kyle appear to be inert. Note also that >those of the fallen BLs are destroyed in the process of felling their >bearers. There may not be any functioning extras to spare on Kyle. At the >moment.
Despite all the BLs around him being destroyed, we have seen repeatedly in Blackest Night and the tie-ins that there is no shortage of rings floating around...everytime a character gets killed, they almost immediately rise again as a BL...even though Kyle took out all the BLs in the area, that probably wouldn't have eliminated all the rings floating around...especially given the swarm of rings that was shown heading to OA.
>Further, note that Kyle's own is quite convinced of his passing. GL rings >don't usually leave their wearers like that without their being quite >fully dead -- and, as we've seen more than once, occasionally not even >then. (There =was= that one time in the original JLA run where Hal bumped >his head in the shower after getting the message he was needed at the >satellite, whereupon the ring went out and absconded with John Stewart. >Don't recall seeing the like since.)
When I said I'm not convinced Kyle is truly dead, I meant I'm not convinced it is a lasting death...hell, Soranik could revive him with her medical skills or some such...or he could be revived in some other manner related to the exploding power battery that killed him...who knows? Add to that the fact that he and Guy are essentially the stars of this series (and Guy is about to go red) and I just can't see him staying gone for long.
At any rate, I'll be extremely pissed if he is really dead for good because he's my favorite of the earth GLs and I am thoroughly annoyed at how he was discarded in favor of the much less interesting Hal Jordan.
> >> My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come > >> back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that > >> said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think > >> the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that > >> said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall > >> seems to be.
> >Note that all the BL rings around Kyle appear to be inert. Note also that > >those of the fallen BLs are destroyed in the process of felling their > >bearers. There may not be any functioning extras to spare on Kyle. At the > >moment.
> Despite all the BLs around him being destroyed, we have seen > repeatedly in Blackest Night and the tie-ins that there is no shortage > of rings floating around...everytime a character gets killed, they > almost immediately rise again as a BL...even though Kyle took out all > the BLs in the area, that probably wouldn't have eliminated all the > rings floating around...especially given the swarm of rings that was > shown heading to OA.
> >Further, note that Kyle's own is quite convinced of his passing. GL rings > >don't usually leave their wearers like that without their being quite > >fully dead -- and, as we've seen more than once, occasionally not even > >then. (There =was= that one time in the original JLA run where Hal bumped > >his head in the shower after getting the message he was needed at the > >satellite, whereupon the ring went out and absconded with John Stewart. > >Don't recall seeing the like since.)
> When I said I'm not convinced Kyle is truly dead, I meant I'm not > convinced it is a lasting death...hell, Soranik could revive him with > her medical skills or some such...or he could be revived in some other > manner related to the exploding power battery that killed him...who > knows? Add to that the fact that he and Guy are essentially the stars > of this series (and Guy is about to go red) and I just can't see him > staying gone for long.
> At any rate, I'll be extremely pissed if he is really dead for good > because he's my favorite of the earth GLs and I am thoroughly annoyed > at how he was discarded in favor of the much less interesting Hal > Jordan.
I doubt Kyle will stay dead also. I'd like to see them follow up on the idea that Jade passed her Starheart connection to him (an idea that was completely ignored when the Ion series ended) and that will turn into a factor. And I prefer to think she DID have her natural powers when she died, not that she was borrowing from the whale or Kyle. Plus Ganthet has always been fond of Kyle, and Johns has seemed to portray him with as an emblem of hope much of the time. And Kyle has had run-ins with Nekron in the past, and an upcoming cover of GLC has Kyle being "consumed" by Guy's rage.
Speaking of Guy, his red costume seems a lot different than most RLs we've seen, wonder if he winds up with the Red Avatar instead of just being a ring-bearer?
>> >> My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come >> >> back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that >> >> said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think >> >> the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that >> >> said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall >> >> seems to be.
>> >Note that all the BL rings around Kyle appear to be inert. Note also that >> >those of the fallen BLs are destroyed in the process of felling their >> >bearers. There may not be any functioning extras to spare on Kyle. At the >> >moment.
>> Despite all the BLs around him being destroyed, we have seen >> repeatedly in Blackest Night and the tie-ins that there is no shortage >> of rings floating around...everytime a character gets killed, they >> almost immediately rise again as a BL...even though Kyle took out all >> the BLs in the area, that probably wouldn't have eliminated all the >> rings floating around...especially given the swarm of rings that was >> shown heading to OA.
>> >Further, note that Kyle's own is quite convinced of his passing. GL rings >> >don't usually leave their wearers like that without their being quite >> >fully dead -- and, as we've seen more than once, occasionally not even >> >then. (There =was= that one time in the original JLA run where Hal bumped >> >his head in the shower after getting the message he was needed at the >> >satellite, whereupon the ring went out and absconded with John Stewart. >> >Don't recall seeing the like since.)
>> When I said I'm not convinced Kyle is truly dead, I meant I'm not >> convinced it is a lasting death...hell, Soranik could revive him with >> her medical skills or some such...or he could be revived in some other >> manner related to the exploding power battery that killed him...who >> knows? Add to that the fact that he and Guy are essentially the stars >> of this series (and Guy is about to go red) and I just can't see him >> staying gone for long.
>> At any rate, I'll be extremely pissed if he is really dead for good >> because he's my favorite of the earth GLs and I am thoroughly annoyed >> at how he was discarded in favor of the much less interesting Hal >> Jordan.
>I doubt Kyle will stay dead also. I'd like to see them follow up on >the idea that Jade passed her Starheart connection to him (an idea >that was completely ignored when the Ion series ended) and that will >turn into a factor. And I prefer to think she DID have her natural >powers when she died, not that she was borrowing from the whale or >Kyle.
I would have prefered that take too...but it would contradict the ion "entity" bullshit that Geoff Johns came up with...of course, the entity idea doesn't really work with that situation either...the whole thing never really made much since as written or even with the retcons that have followed since.
Plus Ganthet has always been fond of Kyle, and Johns has seemed
>to portray him with as an emblem of hope much of the time.
It really would have made more sense for Ganthet to approach Kyle to lead the blue lanterns...but that would take some of the spotlight off Hal and we couldn't possibly have that these days...for that matter, Johns has shown next to no interest in writing Kyle at all.
I suppose there is always the possibility that Kyle could end up Ion yet again now that Sodom Yat is down for the count...of course, we know he eventually gets better since he's the only GL left in the Legion's future.
And Kyle
>has had run-ins with Nekron in the past, and an upcoming cover of GLC >has Kyle being "consumed" by Guy's rage.
It just didn't strike me as a final death...for one thing, they just started that whole mural subplot with him...and it seems like DC has been keeping him around to buck expectations since most of us thought Kyle would be killed off after Hal's return.
>Speaking of Guy, his red costume seems a lot different than most RLs >we've seen, wonder if he winds up with the Red Avatar instead of just >being a ring-bearer?
Who knows? Whatever it is, it's bound to be only a temporary change...although it will probably last longer than Hal's walk on the red side.
MWG wrote: > Speaking of Guy, his red costume seems a lot different than most RLs > we've seen, wonder if he winds up with the Red Avatar instead of just > being a ring-bearer?
Maybe it's because Guy will have succeeded in not allowing himself to be consumed by rage? Of all the rings the only ones I can't find a good side to would be Black/Death and Orange/Greed.
> >> >> My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come > >> >> back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that > >> >> said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think > >> >> the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that > >> >> said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall > >> >> seems to be.
> >> >Note that all the BL rings around Kyle appear to be inert. Note also that > >> >those of the fallen BLs are destroyed in the process of felling their > >> >bearers. There may not be any functioning extras to spare on Kyle. At the > >> >moment.
> >> Despite all the BLs around him being destroyed, we have seen > >> repeatedly in Blackest Night and the tie-ins that there is no shortage > >> of rings floating around...everytime a character gets killed, they > >> almost immediately rise again as a BL...even though Kyle took out all > >> the BLs in the area, that probably wouldn't have eliminated all the > >> rings floating around...especially given the swarm of rings that was > >> shown heading to OA.
> >> >Further, note that Kyle's own is quite convinced of his passing. GL rings > >> >don't usually leave their wearers like that without their being quite > >> >fully dead -- and, as we've seen more than once, occasionally not even > >> >then. (There =was= that one time in the original JLA run where Hal bumped > >> >his head in the shower after getting the message he was needed at the > >> >satellite, whereupon the ring went out and absconded with John Stewart. > >> >Don't recall seeing the like since.)
> >> When I said I'm not convinced Kyle is truly dead, I meant I'm not > >> convinced it is a lasting death...hell, Soranik could revive him with > >> her medical skills or some such...or he could be revived in some other > >> manner related to the exploding power battery that killed him...who > >> knows? Add to that the fact that he and Guy are essentially the stars > >> of this series (and Guy is about to go red) and I just can't see him > >> staying gone for long.
> >> At any rate, I'll be extremely pissed if he is really dead for good > >> because he's my favorite of the earth GLs and I am thoroughly annoyed > >> at how he was discarded in favor of the much less interesting Hal > >> Jordan.
> >I doubt Kyle will stay dead also. I'd like to see them follow up on > >the idea that Jade passed her Starheart connection to him (an idea > >that was completely ignored when the Ion series ended) and that will > >turn into a factor. And I prefer to think she DID have her natural > >powers when she died, not that she was borrowing from the whale or > >Kyle.
> I would have prefered that take too...but it would contradict the ion > "entity" bullshit that Geoff Johns came up with...of course, the > entity idea doesn't really work with that situation either...the whole > thing never really made much since as written or even with the retcons > that have followed since.
They've kept pretty quiet on specifics of how the Ion entity came to be. Did Ganthet put it in the ring before picking Kyle, did Kyle get it shortly before taking the name Ion the first time (after taking Parallax's left over energy in the sun) or what. I think the Ion one- shot said the Starheart energy allowed Kyle to host Ion again, not that it was the creation of it. But obviously, not a lot of thought was put into the whole mess. It could go anywhere, but it probably won't.
> Plus Ganthet has always been fond of Kyle, and Johns has seemed
> >to portray him with as an emblem of hope much of the time.
> It really would have made more sense for Ganthet to approach Kyle to > lead the blue lanterns...but that would take some of the spotlight off > Hal and we couldn't possibly have that these days...for that matter, > Johns has shown next to no interest in writing Kyle at all.
> I suppose there is always the possibility that Kyle could end up Ion > yet again now that Sodom Yat is down for the count...of course, we > know he eventually gets better since he's the only GL left in the > Legion's future.
The less Johns writes Kyle the better though, IMO. The whale idea flopped, and Kyle hosting Parallax was underwhelming (if you are going to make him bad, let him be BAD). But Kyle breaking free of Parallax was a cool moment. Tomasi has been a lot better to Kyle than Johns or Winnick were though, or even Marz on final run on the main GL title. I could do without seeing him as Ion again too. But as a Blue Lantern with a "weaponized" ring (like the Guardians accused Hal of having) he'd be alright. The Blue ring would have to be tweaked a bit, since its useless without a GL around and way overpowered with a GL near. But staying a normal GL, or a Starheart-powered successor to Alan Scott would be fine.
On Nov 17, 7:44 am, Michael <thissp...@for.rent> wrote:
> MWG wrote: > > Speaking of Guy, his red costume seems a lot different than most RLs > > we've seen, wonder if he winds up with the Red Avatar instead of just > > being a ring-bearer?
> Maybe it's because Guy will have succeeded in not allowing himself to be > consumed by rage? Of all the rings the only ones I can't find a good > side to would be Black/Death and Orange/Greed.
I could see more use for Orange than I do with Red. Greed, at least will let you think in self-interest, which might accidentally wind up helping someone else. And the greedy are easier to manipulate than the angry.
>> >> >> My guess is that anyone who dies during the event itself will come >> >> >> back by the end but I doubt they will bring back many others...that >> >> >> said, I'm not sure Kyle is truly dead here...if he were, I would think >> >> >> the cliffhanger would have been his becoming a black lantern...that >> >> >> said, if he is dead, he could turn into a WHITE lantern like Don Hall >> >> >> seems to be.
>> >> >Note that all the BL rings around Kyle appear to be inert. Note also that >> >> >those of the fallen BLs are destroyed in the process of felling their >> >> >bearers. There may not be any functioning extras to spare on Kyle. At the >> >> >moment.
>> >> Despite all the BLs around him being destroyed, we have seen >> >> repeatedly in Blackest Night and the tie-ins that there is no shortage >> >> of rings floating around...everytime a character gets killed, they >> >> almost immediately rise again as a BL...even though Kyle took out all >> >> the BLs in the area, that probably wouldn't have eliminated all the >> >> rings floating around...especially given the swarm of rings that was >> >> shown heading to OA.
>> >> >Further, note that Kyle's own is quite convinced of his passing. GL rings >> >> >don't usually leave their wearers like that without their being quite >> >> >fully dead -- and, as we've seen more than once, occasionally not even >> >> >then. (There =was= that one time in the original JLA run where Hal bumped >> >> >his head in the shower after getting the message he was needed at the >> >> >satellite, whereupon the ring went out and absconded with John Stewart. >> >> >Don't recall seeing the like since.)
>> >> When I said I'm not convinced Kyle is truly dead, I meant I'm not >> >> convinced it is a lasting death...hell, Soranik could revive him with >> >> her medical skills or some such...or he could be revived in some other >> >> manner related to the exploding power battery that killed him...who >> >> knows? Add to that the fact that he and Guy are essentially the stars >> >> of this series (and Guy is about to go red) and I just can't see him >> >> staying gone for long.
>> >> At any rate, I'll be extremely pissed if he is really dead for good >> >> because he's my favorite of the earth GLs and I am thoroughly annoyed >> >> at how he was discarded in favor of the much less interesting Hal >> >> Jordan.
>> >I doubt Kyle will stay dead also. I'd like to see them follow up on >> >the idea that Jade passed her Starheart connection to him (an idea >> >that was completely ignored when the Ion series ended) and that will >> >turn into a factor. And I prefer to think she DID have her natural >> >powers when she died, not that she was borrowing from the whale or >> >Kyle.
>> I would have prefered that take too...but it would contradict the ion >> "entity" bullshit that Geoff Johns came up with...of course, the >> entity idea doesn't really work with that situation either...the whole >> thing never really made much since as written or even with the retcons >> that have followed since.
>They've kept pretty quiet on specifics of how the Ion entity came to >be. Did Ganthet put it in the ring before picking Kyle, did Kyle get >it shortly before taking the name Ion the first time (after taking >Parallax's left over energy in the sun) or what. I think the Ion one- >shot said the Starheart energy allowed Kyle to host Ion again, not >that it was the creation of it. But obviously, not a lot of thought >was put into the whole mess. It could go anywhere, but it probably >won't.
The Ion entity bit makes no sense at all...Kyle originally became Ion by absorbing Parallax's power...which means, if anything, he should have become Parallax right then...it also means that the Ion entity would have been in Hal when he was Parallax too...and where exactly did the entity come from the second time? It couldn't have been in Jade all that time and, if it was in Kyle all along, then what did he use to restore the power battery at the end of the first Ion storyline? The Parallax entity is a bit of a stretch as it is, but the Ion entity is just idiocy.
>> Plus Ganthet has always been fond of Kyle, and Johns has seemed
>> >to portray him with as an emblem of hope much of the time.
>> It really would have made more sense for Ganthet to approach Kyle to >> lead the blue lanterns...but that would take some of the spotlight off >> Hal and we couldn't possibly have that these days...for that matter, >> Johns has shown next to no interest in writing Kyle at all.
>> I suppose there is always the possibility that Kyle could end up Ion >> yet again now that Sodom Yat is down for the count...of course, we >> know he eventually gets better since he's the only GL left in the >> Legion's future.
>The less Johns writes Kyle the better though, IMO. The whale idea >flopped, and Kyle hosting Parallax was underwhelming (if you are going >to make him bad, let him be BAD). But Kyle breaking free of Parallax >was a cool moment.
I actually thought that was kind of weak...the whole ending of Sinestro War was weak...it started really strong but just kind of dropped off in the back half.
Tomasi has been a lot better to Kyle than Johns or
>Winnick were though, or even Marz on final run on the main GL title. >I could do without seeing him as Ion again too.
I don't know what was up with that last arc by Ron Marz...I swear the title should have been "Shit on Kyle Rayner"...his girl cheats on him and dumps him, John Stewart kicks his ass and gives him a lecture, and Major Force (who is still one of the lamest villains ever) "kills" his mother...and then Kyle just kind of wonders off into space...it started right where it began...but I thought Winick did pretty well with Kyle...the gay-bashing arc was a little heavy handed but I generally enjoyed his run on the book...Raab's run following it, however, sucked hard.
Tomasi has done right by Kyle but he has kind of dropped the part that makes Kyle unique from other lanterns...his creativity...aside from the mural subplot, Kyle's artistic side hasn't really shown at all in this run.
But as a Blue Lantern
>with a "weaponized" ring (like the Guardians accused Hal of having) >he'd be alright. The Blue ring would have to be tweaked a bit, since >its useless without a GL around and way overpowered with a GL near. >But staying a normal GL, or a Starheart-powered successor to Alan >Scott would be fine.
Actually, Ganthet approached Hal to lead the Blue Lanterns AS a green lantern...the idea being that his will is so strong he can fuel the entire corps by himself...more pointless build-up of Hal.
MWG wrote: > On Nov 17, 7:44 am, Michael <thissp...@for.rent> wrote:
>>MWG wrote:
>>>Speaking of Guy, his red costume seems a lot different than most RLs >>>we've seen, wonder if he winds up with the Red Avatar instead of just >>>being a ring-bearer?
>>Maybe it's because Guy will have succeeded in not allowing himself to be >>consumed by rage? Of all the rings the only ones I can't find a good >>side to would be Black/Death and Orange/Greed.
> I could see more use for Orange than I do with Red. Greed, at least > will let you think in self-interest, which might accidentally wind up > helping someone else. And the greedy are easier to manipulate than > the angry.
I'm just going by strict good/evil distinctions. An example of a good guy using Fear is easy: Batman. Rage would be someone like Wolverine: He's angry but controls it. Usually. Will, Compassion, Love, and Hope I think have numerous examples.
Michael Douglas' character in Wall Street pointed out some good to Greed, though that'd certainly be more the exception than the rule.
> >> I would have prefered that take too...but it would contradict the ion > >> "entity" bullshit that Geoff Johns came up with...of course, the > >> entity idea doesn't really work with that situation either...the whole > >> thing never really made much since as written or even with the retcons > >> that have followed since.
> >They've kept pretty quiet on specifics of how the Ion entity came to > >be. Did Ganthet put it in the ring before picking Kyle, did Kyle get > >it shortly before taking the name Ion the first time (after taking > >Parallax's left over energy in the sun) or what. I think the Ion one- > >shot said the Starheart energy allowed Kyle to host Ion again, not > >that it was the creation of it. But obviously, not a lot of thought > >was put into the whole mess. It could go anywhere, but it probably > >won't.
> The Ion entity bit makes no sense at all...Kyle originally became Ion > by absorbing Parallax's power...which means, if anything, he should > have become Parallax right then...it also means that the Ion entity > would have been in Hal when he was Parallax too...and where exactly > did the entity come from the second time? It couldn't have been in > Jade all that time and, if it was in Kyle all along, then what did he > use to restore the power battery at the end of the first Ion > storyline? The Parallax entity is a bit of a stretch as it is, but > the Ion entity is just idiocy.
There are a lot of pieces to the Ion puzzle, like the fact that Ganthet rode around with Hal & Parallax for awhile, and I think some editor described Kyle's initial rise to becoming Ion as being a mix of Oblivion's ability and Parallax's left over juice. I know Kyle reabsorbing Oblivion back into his psyche had some part in it. But the whale didn't do a lot of the tricks Kyle/Ion 1 did, like making multi-color constructs and reconnecting Jade's powers.
> Tomasi has been a lot better to Kyle than Johns or
> >Winnick were though, or even Marz on final run on the main GL title. > >I could do without seeing him as Ion again too.
> I don't know what was up with that last arc by Ron Marz...I swear the > title should have been "Shit on Kyle Rayner"...his girl cheats on him > and dumps him, John Stewart kicks his ass and gives him a lecture, and > Major Force (who is still one of the lamest villains ever) "kills" his > mother...and then Kyle just kind of wonders off into space...it > started right where it began...but I thought Winick did pretty well > with Kyle...the gay-bashing arc was a little heavy handed but I > generally enjoyed his run on the book...Raab's run following it, > however, sucked hard.
> Tomasi has done right by Kyle but he has kind of dropped the part that > makes Kyle unique from other lanterns...his creativity...aside from > the mural subplot, Kyle's artistic side hasn't really shown at all in > this run.
Marz always seemed pretty willing to do whatever "dirty job" editorial needed as far as the GL franchise. If Hal hadn't gone nuts and had just died a hero, they might never have needed to bring him back. Marz last GL run seemed more like set-up for Rebirth than anything with a point. I have a hard time staying objective about Winnick after he ruined Conner Hawke. The bit with Kyle thinking they might have to kill Nero to stop him was cool. Fixing Jade and John was ok too, but those characters should never have been broken. Raab's run was just boring. Tomasi has made Kyle mature some, and become more of a leader to the GLC. Kyle's artistic talent may've been overlooked since he wound up in the book after SCW and Tomasi didn't have the space to show it.
> But as a Blue Lantern
> >with a "weaponized" ring (like the Guardians accused Hal of having) > >he'd be alright. The Blue ring would have to be tweaked a bit, since > >its useless without a GL around and way overpowered with a GL near. > >But staying a normal GL, or a Starheart-powered successor to Alan > >Scott would be fine.
> Actually, Ganthet approached Hal to lead the Blue Lanterns AS a green > lantern...the idea being that his will is so strong he can fuel the > entire corps by himself...more pointless build-up of Hal.
The details of this arc had kinda faded from my memory. But the fact that the Guardians didn't realize the weaponized blue ring is the direct result of the presence of one of their own rings made them look like idiots. But Hal getting built-up did make Larfleeze's story a lot more fun.
> MWG wrote: > > On Nov 17, 7:44 am, Michael <thissp...@for.rent> wrote:
> >>MWG wrote:
> >>>Speaking of Guy, his red costume seems a lot different than most RLs > >>>we've seen, wonder if he winds up with the Red Avatar instead of just > >>>being a ring-bearer?
> >>Maybe it's because Guy will have succeeded in not allowing himself to be > >>consumed by rage? Of all the rings the only ones I can't find a good > >>side to would be Black/Death and Orange/Greed.
> > I could see more use for Orange than I do with Red. Greed, at least > > will let you think in self-interest, which might accidentally wind up > > helping someone else. And the greedy are easier to manipulate than > > the angry.
> I'm just going by strict good/evil distinctions. An example of a good > guy using Fear is easy: Batman. Rage would be someone like Wolverine: > He's angry but controls it. Usually. Will, Compassion, Love, and > Hope I think have numerous examples.
> Michael Douglas' character in Wall Street pointed out some good to > Greed, though that'd certainly be more the exception than the rule.
All emotions have their advantages and disadvantages, IMO. But we are affected by all of them, like it or not. It may take more time to see the benefits of greed. But I think a lot of societies and nations here on Earth may have started partly from greed, but grew into far more noble and beneficial societies/nations as time went on. Much technology and innovation also sprang from the desire to get rich also.
And some heroes were affected by greed early on also. Spiderman wanted to profit from his newfound powers, but lost his uncle in the process and gained a much better perspective on power and responsibility as a result.
>> >> I would have prefered that take too...but it would contradict the ion >> >> "entity" bullshit that Geoff Johns came up with...of course, the >> >> entity idea doesn't really work with that situation either...the whole >> >> thing never really made much since as written or even with the retcons >> >> that have followed since.
>> >They've kept pretty quiet on specifics of how the Ion entity came to >> >be. Did Ganthet put it in the ring before picking Kyle, did Kyle get >> >it shortly before taking the name Ion the first time (after taking >> >Parallax's left over energy in the sun) or what. I think the Ion one- >> >shot said the Starheart energy allowed Kyle to host Ion again, not >> >that it was the creation of it. But obviously, not a lot of thought >> >was put into the whole mess. It could go anywhere, but it probably >> >won't.
>> The Ion entity bit makes no sense at all...Kyle originally became Ion >> by absorbing Parallax's power...which means, if anything, he should >> have become Parallax right then...it also means that the Ion entity >> would have been in Hal when he was Parallax too...and where exactly >> did the entity come from the second time? It couldn't have been in >> Jade all that time and, if it was in Kyle all along, then what did he >> use to restore the power battery at the end of the first Ion >> storyline? The Parallax entity is a bit of a stretch as it is, but >> the Ion entity is just idiocy.
>There are a lot of pieces to the Ion puzzle, like the fact that >Ganthet rode around with Hal & Parallax for awhile, and I think some >editor described Kyle's initial rise to becoming Ion as being a mix of >Oblivion's ability and Parallax's left over juice. I know Kyle >reabsorbing Oblivion back into his psyche had some part in it. But >the whale didn't do a lot of the tricks Kyle/Ion 1 did, like making >multi-color constructs and reconnecting Jade's powers.
There's really no way to reconcile it all...not that they ever bothered to try.
>> Tomasi has been a lot better to Kyle than Johns or
>> >Winnick were though, or even Marz on final run on the main GL title. >> >I could do without seeing him as Ion again too.
>> I don't know what was up with that last arc by Ron Marz...I swear the >> title should have been "Shit on Kyle Rayner"...his girl cheats on him >> and dumps him, John Stewart kicks his ass and gives him a lecture, and >> Major Force (who is still one of the lamest villains ever) "kills" his >> mother...and then Kyle just kind of wonders off into space...it >> started right where it began...but I thought Winick did pretty well >> with Kyle...the gay-bashing arc was a little heavy handed but I >> generally enjoyed his run on the book...Raab's run following it, >> however, sucked hard.
>> Tomasi has done right by Kyle but he has kind of dropped the part that >> makes Kyle unique from other lanterns...his creativity...aside from >> the mural subplot, Kyle's artistic side hasn't really shown at all in >> this run.
>Marz always seemed pretty willing to do whatever "dirty job" editorial >needed as far as the GL franchise. If Hal hadn't gone nuts and had >just died a hero, they might never have needed to bring him back. >Marz last GL run seemed more like set-up for Rebirth than anything >with a point. I have a hard time staying objective about Winnick >after he ruined Conner Hawke. The bit with Kyle thinking they might >have to kill Nero to stop him was cool. Fixing Jade and John was ok >too, but those characters should never have been broken. Raab's run >was just boring. Tomasi has made Kyle mature some, and become more of >a leader to the GLC. Kyle's artistic talent may've been overlooked >since he wound up in the book after SCW and Tomasi didn't have the >space to show it.
I still think that Emerald Twilight could have been a great story if it had been executed better...a longer story (maybe a year) picking up immediately following the destruction of Coast City and showing Hal's slow descent into madness could have been great...Hal was always uptight and I don't have a problem believing he could lose it like that...but they did a horrible job of selling it...aside from being too rushed, Carol and/or Pieface would have had to die in Coast City to really make Hal's reaction fit...that said, I still don't think he needed to come back...Hal as the Spectre was starting to grow on me (definitely superior to the current version) and Kyle was finally starting to gain some traction with fans between Morrison's JLA and Winick's GL...I think Green Lantern could have been just as popular a title with Kyle in the lead if they had put some A-list talent on the book...I'm generally not much of a Morrison fan, but I always thought he would have been a great fit on a Kyle GL book...he's got the imagination to really make the character shine.
I'm pissed that Winick ruined Connor Hawke too...it was especially annoying because he had written Connor pretty well up to that point...for that matter, I think just about every character in that book was ruined by forcing the Dinah/Ollie marriage that made absolutely no sense at this point...but that was more an editorial decision than Winick's own.
>> >with a "weaponized" ring (like the Guardians accused Hal of having) >> >he'd be alright. The Blue ring would have to be tweaked a bit, since >> >its useless without a GL around and way overpowered with a GL near. >> >But staying a normal GL, or a Starheart-powered successor to Alan >> >Scott would be fine.
>> Actually, Ganthet approached Hal to lead the Blue Lanterns AS a green >> lantern...the idea being that his will is so strong he can fuel the >> entire corps by himself...more pointless build-up of Hal.
>The details of this arc had kinda faded from my memory. But the fact >that the Guardians didn't realize the weaponized blue ring is the >direct result of the presence of one of their own rings made them look >like idiots. But Hal getting built-up did make Larfleeze's story a >lot more fun.
I think the emotional spectrum thing is just silly and getting sillier as it is further explored...it seems like Johns' is siezing on the cheesiest aspects of the GL mythos and reveling in them...the Sinestro Corps was a great idea (I'm amazed no one else thought of it sooner) but it should have ended there.
MWG <mwg...@gmail.com> wrote in news:74214841-dd0c-4695-bfb8-906491c2a786 @b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> And some heroes were affected by greed early on also. Spiderman > wanted to profit from his newfound powers, but lost his uncle in the > process and gained a much better perspective on power and > responsibility as a result.
Losing Uncle Ben was the result of laziness and a lack of caring, not "greed". Remember, he already had his money in-hand; slowing up the thief at the studio wouldn't have cost him a dime.
-- ------------------- ------------------------------------------------ || E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington|| || -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke|| || ----------- || ------------------------------------ || ||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free || || "@" to respond. || Since 1998 || ------------------- ------------------------------------------------ "It's not that I want to punish your success. [...]I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
> >> >> I would have prefered that take too...but it would contradict the ion > >> >> "entity" bullshit that Geoff Johns came up with...of course, the > >> >> entity idea doesn't really work with that situation either...the whole > >> >> thing never really made much since as written or even with the retcons > >> >> that have followed since.
> >> >They've kept pretty quiet on specifics of how the Ion entity came to > >> >be. Did Ganthet put it in the ring before picking Kyle, did Kyle get > >> >it shortly before taking the name Ion the first time (after taking > >> >Parallax's left over energy in the sun) or what. I think the Ion one- > >> >shot said the Starheart energy allowed Kyle to host Ion again, not > >> >that it was the creation of it. But obviously, not a lot of thought > >> >was put into the whole mess. It could go anywhere, but it probably > >> >won't.
> >> The Ion entity bit makes no sense at all...Kyle originally became Ion > >> by absorbing Parallax's power...which means, if anything, he should > >> have become Parallax right then...it also means that the Ion entity > >> would have been in Hal when he was Parallax too...and where exactly > >> did the entity come from the second time? It couldn't have been in > >> Jade all that time and, if it was in Kyle all along, then what did he > >> use to restore the power battery at the end of the first Ion > >> storyline? The Parallax entity is a bit of a stretch as it is, but > >> the Ion entity is just idiocy.
> >There are a lot of pieces to the Ion puzzle, like the fact that > >Ganthet rode around with Hal & Parallax for awhile, and I think some > >editor described Kyle's initial rise to becoming Ion as being a mix of > >Oblivion's ability and Parallax's left over juice. I know Kyle > >reabsorbing Oblivion back into his psyche had some part in it. But > >the whale didn't do a lot of the tricks Kyle/Ion 1 did, like making > >multi-color constructs and reconnecting Jade's powers.
> There's really no way to reconcile it all...not that they ever > bothered to try.
> >> Tomasi has been a lot better to Kyle than Johns or
> >> >Winnick were though, or even Marz on final run on the main GL title. > >> >I could do without seeing him as Ion again too.
> >> I don't know what was up with that last arc by Ron Marz...I swear the > >> title should have been "Shit on Kyle Rayner"...his girl cheats on him > >> and dumps him, John Stewart kicks his ass and gives him a lecture, and > >> Major Force (who is still one of the lamest villains ever) "kills" his > >> mother...and then Kyle just kind of wonders off into space...it > >> started right where it began...but I thought Winick did pretty well > >> with Kyle...the gay-bashing arc was a little heavy handed but I > >> generally enjoyed his run on the book...Raab's run following it, > >> however, sucked hard.
> >> Tomasi has done right by Kyle but he has kind of dropped the part that > >> makes Kyle unique from other lanterns...his creativity...aside from > >> the mural subplot, Kyle's artistic side hasn't really shown at all in > >> this run.
> >Marz always seemed pretty willing to do whatever "dirty job" editorial > >needed as far as the GL franchise. If Hal hadn't gone nuts and had > >just died a hero, they might never have needed to bring him back. > >Marz last GL run seemed more like set-up for Rebirth than anything > >with a point. I have a hard time staying objective about Winnick > >after he ruined Conner Hawke. The bit with Kyle thinking they might > >have to kill Nero to stop him was cool. Fixing Jade and John was ok > >too, but those characters should never have been broken. Raab's run > >was just boring. Tomasi has made Kyle mature some, and become more of > >a leader to the GLC. Kyle's artistic talent may've been overlooked > >since he wound up in the book after SCW and Tomasi didn't have the > >space to show it.
> I still think that Emerald Twilight could have been a great story if > it had been executed better...a longer story (maybe a year) picking up > immediately following the destruction of Coast City and showing Hal's > slow descent into madness could have been great...Hal was always > uptight and I don't have a problem believing he could lose it like > that...but they did a horrible job of selling it...aside from being > too rushed, Carol and/or Pieface would have had to die in Coast City > to really make Hal's reaction fit...that said, I still don't think he > needed to come back...Hal as the Spectre was starting to grow on me > (definitely superior to the current version) and Kyle was finally > starting to gain some traction with fans between Morrison's JLA and > Winick's GL...I think Green Lantern could have been just as popular a > title with Kyle in the lead if they had put some A-list talent on the > book...I'm generally not much of a Morrison fan, but I always thought > he would have been a great fit on a Kyle GL book...he's got the > imagination to really make the character shine.
Kyle had been gaining ground at the end of Marz run (overcoming the Controllers fantasy world was good) and Winnick started strong, but it fell apart due to the crossover with Green Arrow. They really should've checked in on John Stewart on earth a bit more during Raab's run, it might've been less boring then. Morrison writing Kyle would've been great, and James Robinson probably could've been fine also.
As for Hal/Spectre - I wasn't a fan, the Spectre deserves better than to be a Hal nostalgia trip. Crispus fits better as a host, from what stories I've read featuring the character (which really amounts to 52 and a couple stories after that). I think I recall hearing that the original plan for Emerald Twilight was Hal finding out the Guardians may have been fakes and possibly the "bad" ones winding up in control, which would basically mean he had to go rogue to fix it. Either way, I just ignore Hal since hes kinda a "blank" spot in the book and villains/support cast actually carry it.
> >> >with a "weaponized" ring (like the Guardians accused Hal of having) > >> >he'd be alright. The Blue ring would have to be tweaked a bit, since > >> >its useless without a GL around and way overpowered with a GL near. > >> >But staying a normal GL, or a Starheart-powered successor to Alan > >> >Scott would be fine.
> >> Actually, Ganthet approached Hal to lead the Blue Lanterns AS a green > >> lantern...the idea being that his will is so strong he can fuel the > >> entire corps by himself...more pointless build-up of Hal.
> >The details of this arc had kinda faded from my memory. But the fact > >that the Guardians didn't realize the weaponized blue ring is the > >direct result of the presence of one of their own rings made them look > >like idiots. But Hal getting built-up did make Larfleeze's story a > >lot more fun.
> I think the emotional spectrum thing is just silly and getting sillier > as it is further explored...it seems like Johns' is siezing on the > cheesiest aspects of the GL mythos and reveling in them...the Sinestro > Corps was a great idea (I'm amazed no one else thought of it sooner) > but it should have ended there.
You can probably tell by my posts, but I am a fan of Larfleeze. The rest can rot, but Agent Orange is too much fun. Blue and Red are more interesting than the Sapphires, Indigo, and Sinestro Corps (about equal, at least) though.
On Nov 18, 1:54 pm, "YKW (ad hoc)" <FluffyMcNut...@foxnews.com> wrote:
> MWG <mwg...@gmail.com> wrote in news:74214841-dd0c-4695-bfb8-906491c2a786 > @b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> > And some heroes were affected by greed early on also. Spiderman > > wanted to profit from his newfound powers, but lost his uncle in the > > process and gained a much better perspective on power and > > responsibility as a result.
> Losing Uncle Ben was the result of laziness and a lack of caring, not > "greed". Remember, he already had his money in-hand; slowing up the thief > at the studio wouldn't have cost him a dime.
I admit, I'm not the biggest Spidey fan out there. But being lazy and self-centered are at least close cousins to greed. Its basically still selfish. I think we could find a few others that are/were largely driven by greed. Booster Gold seems to be a good start, but I'd say Superboy (Conner) was motivated by it for a big chunk of his early adventures, and Guy Gardner seldom refused a photo op. It is harder for me to say with Marvel, since I really only follow Gambit these days and I haven't invested a huge lot into the rest of the Marvel Universe,
On Nov 18, 11:54 am, "YKW (ad hoc)" <FluffyMcNut...@foxnews.com> wrote:
> MWG <mwg...@gmail.com> wrote in news:74214841-dd0c-4695-bfb8-906491c2a786 > @b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> > And some heroes were affected by greed early on also. Spiderman > > wanted to profit from his newfound powers, but lost his uncle in the > > process and gained a much better perspective on power and > > responsibility as a result.
> Losing Uncle Ben was the result of laziness and a lack of caring, not > "greed". Remember, he already had his money in-hand; slowing up the thief > at the studio wouldn't have cost him a dime.
Actually it was petulance (puce, I think) and pettiness (beige).
>> I still think that Emerald Twilight could have been a great story if >> it had been executed better...a longer story (maybe a year) picking up >> immediately following the destruction of Coast City and showing Hal's >> slow descent into madness could have been great...Hal was always >> uptight and I don't have a problem believing he could lose it like >> that...but they did a horrible job of selling it...aside from being >> too rushed, Carol and/or Pieface would have had to die in Coast City >> to really make Hal's reaction fit...that said, I still don't think he >> needed to come back...Hal as the Spectre was starting to grow on me >> (definitely superior to the current version) and Kyle was finally >> starting to gain some traction with fans between Morrison's JLA and >> Winick's GL...I think Green Lantern could have been just as popular a >> title with Kyle in the lead if they had put some A-list talent on the >> book...I'm generally not much of a Morrison fan, but I always thought >> he would have been a great fit on a Kyle GL book...he's got the >> imagination to really make the character shine.
>Kyle had been gaining ground at the end of Marz run (overcoming the >Controllers fantasy world was good) and Winnick started strong, but it >fell apart due to the crossover with Green Arrow.
Actually, that crossover was the end of Winick's run...in fact, I think it was actually AFTER the end of his run because it was when he switched to Green Arrow and I'm reasonably certain he only wrote the GA parts of the crossover...but we agree it was crap...although I did like Amon Sur as a villain and I hate that most of Kyle's decent villains have been wasted since Hal's return (Amon, Nero, Grayven, etc.)...it's a shame.
They really
>should've checked in on John Stewart on earth a bit more during Raab's >run, it might've been less boring then.
I've always found John Stewart to be the absolute least interesting of the GLs...he's the only one I like less than Hal...I'd bet the only reason he even got his ring back was because he was included in the Justice League cartoon and I think it's rather blatantly obvious why he made the cut there.
Morrison writing Kyle
>would've been great, and James Robinson probably could've been fine >also.
>As for Hal/Spectre - I wasn't a fan, the Spectre deserves better than >to be a Hal nostalgia trip. Crispus fits better as a host, from what >stories I've read featuring the character (which really amounts to 52 >and a couple stories after that). I think I recall hearing that the >original plan for Emerald Twilight was Hal finding out the Guardians >may have been fakes and possibly the "bad" ones winding up in control, >which would basically mean he had to go rogue to fix it. Either way, >I just ignore Hal since hes kinda a "blank" spot in the book and >villains/support cast actually carry it.
The Hal/Spectre series was crap because they spent too much time focusing on the metaphysical and lost the advantage of having Hal as the host but his guest appearances in books like Winick's GL, PAD's Supergirl, Johns' Flash and JSA were starting to win me over...and I think Crispus is wasted as the host of the Spectre...he was great in Gotham Central and should have stayed there (I really wish that book had continued).
>> >> >with a "weaponized" ring (like the Guardians accused Hal of having) >> >> >he'd be alright. The Blue ring would have to be tweaked a bit, since >> >> >its useless without a GL around and way overpowered with a GL near. >> >> >But staying a normal GL, or a Starheart-powered successor to Alan >> >> >Scott would be fine.
>> >> Actually, Ganthet approached Hal to lead the Blue Lanterns AS a green >> >> lantern...the idea being that his will is so strong he can fuel the >> >> entire corps by himself...more pointless build-up of Hal.
>> >The details of this arc had kinda faded from my memory. But the fact >> >that the Guardians didn't realize the weaponized blue ring is the >> >direct result of the presence of one of their own rings made them look >> >like idiots. But Hal getting built-up did make Larfleeze's story a >> >lot more fun.
>> I think the emotional spectrum thing is just silly and getting sillier >> as it is further explored...it seems like Johns' is siezing on the >> cheesiest aspects of the GL mythos and reveling in them...the Sinestro >> Corps was a great idea (I'm amazed no one else thought of it sooner) >> but it should have ended there.
>You can probably tell by my posts, but I am a fan of Larfleeze. The >rest can rot, but Agent Orange is too much fun. Blue and Red are more >interesting than the Sapphires, Indigo, and Sinestro Corps (about >equal, at least) though.
I really don't care for Larfleeze but they could have easily done an Agent Orange type character without making him an actual lantern or tying him into the emotional spectrum...hell, they could have even made him a kind of rogue GL if they wanted...the blue lanterns seem pretty useless to me...the red lanterns are another concept that really isn't dependent on the ring as they could easily have created character(s) like that without making it an actual lantern corps (a virus could have been a good fit)...I have no interest in the Sapphires (and I thought it was just bizarre that Khufu and Chay-ara were the fuel for their power battery) but I have to admit I do kind of like seeing Carol back in the book...we still don't really know what is up with the Indigo tribe but I really don't care one way or the other...as I said, Sinestro Corps was a good idea as a counterpoint to the GLs...and the Black Lanterns are kind of lame simply because they are NOT who they appear to be and all the heroes figure that out almost immediately (it kind of takes the dramatic impact out of the story, in my opinion).
>On Nov 18, 1:54 pm, "YKW (ad hoc)" <FluffyMcNut...@foxnews.com> wrote: >> MWG <mwg...@gmail.com> wrote in news:74214841-dd0c-4695-bfb8-906491c2a786 >> @b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>> > And some heroes were affected by greed early on also. Spiderman >> > wanted to profit from his newfound powers, but lost his uncle in the >> > process and gained a much better perspective on power and >> > responsibility as a result.
>> Losing Uncle Ben was the result of laziness and a lack of caring, not >> "greed". Remember, he already had his money in-hand; slowing up the thief >> at the studio wouldn't have cost him a dime.
>I admit, I'm not the biggest Spidey fan out there. But being lazy and >self-centered are at least close cousins to greed. Its basically >still selfish. I think we could find a few others that are/were >largely driven by greed. Booster Gold seems to be a good start, but >I'd say Superboy (Conner) was motivated by it for a big chunk of his >early adventures, and Guy Gardner seldom refused a photo op. It is >harder for me to say with Marvel, since I really only follow Gambit >these days and I haven't invested a huge lot into the rest of the >Marvel Universe,
Of all the characters at Marvel, only following Gambit seems like an odd choice to me...I mean, I like the character too but there are a lot of great characters in the x-books alone and there actually hasn't been a decent story with Gambit in years.
On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:35:45 -0800 (PST), MWG <mwg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think we could find a few others that are/were >largely driven by greed.
...And let's not forget that Jerry Siegel's original idea for Superboy was for Clark to not be wearing the super-suit, but to be using his powers to pull pranks just like any normal kid would do if he had such abilities. The idea was that he'd eventually grow out of pulling such stunts as he got older, but while he was a kid he'd be just this side of Eddie Haskell with his powers.
Still, one has to wonder just how many billions of microscopic pinholes permeate the Kent family barn, and just how many Rads Lana Lang received per night compared to a normal X-Ray.
OM -- ]=====================================[ ] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [ ] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [ ] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [ ]=====================================[
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