SANDMAN: Not quite annotation of #70 - LONG
Carl Fink
just some things I noticed in it.
Page 1 -- is Destiny's garden overgrown and poorly tended? Looks like
it to me. Is the arch over the entrance to his dwelling a Rorshach
blot? Again, it seems to be. One doesn't surprise Destiny, of
course, so he was deliberately waiting for his messenger in his
Gallery. He's shown standing beside his own portrait -- but up to
now, the Endless haven't had their own portraits in their galleries,
have they?
Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors. Is Destiny despairing,
is that why she sees him?
Page 3 -- Death is walking a field, in a manner reminding me of the
brief glimpse of Delight...only there's a tank turret in the right
background.
Desire apparently is still in the Heart. Why does it get two
messengers, not one?
Page 4 -- Delirium recites a broken version of the same rhyme Eve and
Abel did before, and describes her messenger. A magpie of course
makes perfect sense for her. Interesting that Barnabas never speaks a
word in this issue -- is Dream's prohibition on his speaking about
family business (or while their family is speaking together) still in
effect?
5 -- Delirium's expression is amazing - perhaps the best thing about
the excellent art by Michael Zulli this issue.
Note that when Delirium mentions Destruction, Destiny says that it
"appears" that he hasn't come. I suspect that he has.
Here, and on 4 and 15, Destiny's robe is drawn as transparent near the
hem -- you can see the grass through it. Why?
Page 7 & 8 -- The Endless make a man out of mud (and sticks). Death
speaks of having done something like this before, and breathes a
literal breath of life into him. (Destruction told Orpheus that she
speaks to everyone before they're born.) Seemingly the Endless (as
the Creator's agents) made Adam, too. Or something.
It's entirely appropriate that Desire makes his genitals, of course.
<g>
When Delirium sits to sculpt Eblis, mushrooms and a tiny house sprout
from the ground she rests on.
Destiny has his book open on 7, for the only time in this issue. The
illustration on that page of the book shows a reduced version of the
very panel in which it appears.
Note also that Barnabas brings a stick which apparently is used to
build Eblis O'Shaughnessy -- is he Destruction in disguise?
I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking him in
the eye.
In the sequence starting on page 10, Cain shows far more courage and
honesty than he has (in this series) to this point. Maybe Morpheus'
death freed him, as it did Alex Burgess and others, from his curse?
One of the pictures behind Dream's throne is Edward Moench's (sp?)
"The Scream". I don't recognize any others, although the graveyard
right above his head could be outside the Necropolis Litharge.
On page 11, panel 3, the pictures are completely different, seemingly
relating to Egyptian funeral customs.
Page 13 (appropriate for Eve, and interestingly unnumbered), Eve
summons a candle out of nothingness, then summons a flame to light it
with.
Page 15, the caption says "Destiny led his siblings and their new-made
attendant." but the art shows Desire in front. Okay, it's probably
trivial. Again, though, if the narrator mentions Eblis, why not
Barnabas, unless Barnabas is in reality one of those siblings?
The repeating panels of a person, and "xxx dreams" here and later of
course echo the similar structure in "The Doll's House" (when Rose
became the Vortex) and again in "A Game of You" (when the Cuckoo tried
to make the dreamers destroy Barbie).
More echoes -- Dream's recreation of Mervyn on page 16 and 17 echoes
the other Endless's creation of Eblis O'Shaughnessy quite closely.
Page 20 -- As Dream doesn't recreate Gilbert, the stained glass is
partly a picture of a garden (Gilbert as Fiddler's Green?), a pumpkin
vine (Mervyn?) and a pair of empty boots (Abel?). Is this room going
to be a memorial to those who died to defend the Dreaming? Where's
the Hippogryph?
Page 22 -- As people arrive for the Wake proper, Bast and Lyta look
like their real selves, as does Ric Madoc, sort of. Robert Gadling is
back in his "Hob" clothes, and Alex Burgess as what he still thinks of
himself as, a child (of his dominating father?). Nuala is very
different from the hairy imp of her former "true" appearance.
Page 23 panel 1 has a Siamese or Persian cat crouching on the rocks.
Could this be the "Mistress" from "Dream of a Thousand Cats"?
Meanwhile Alex recites a line from issue one (unfortunately lettered
wrong).
Also, that seems to be Odin walking down the stairs in the background.
Did anyone else notice the number of spring-symbols (resurrection
symbols) in the Dream-related parts of this story? Climbing plants,
flowers? The toad-stone, a toad trapped in a stone which remains
alive and eventually breaks free?
Echoes, echoes...Nuala's candle echoes Eve's, as Rose's skull echoes
the Necropolis Litharge's main decorating accessory (and Hamlet,
presaging "The Tempest".)
Well, that was really long, wasn't it? I hope anyone who made it this
far found it interesting.
--
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com madsci...@genie.com
Assistant Sysop, GEnie's First and Fourth Science Fiction RoundTables
URL http://www.io.com/~glitz/sfrt (subject to change)
Michael Denton
The messengers that Desire gets seem to be lovebirds (which you
usually see in pairs). I think this is why s/he gets two.
When Death says she "hasn't done this in a while" I didn't take it as a
reference to Adam (although it could be--but Cain,Eve, and Abel all seem
to be entirely fictious in Sandman, so why should Adam be different) but
rather to a previous envoy, when Despair died. Of course, the catacombs
are the ones from the story within a story of the Necropolis Litharge issue
of "Worlds' End" where the crone gets her hand withered. During that issue
I thought it was Destiny speaking, because of the book; this issue certainly
seems to dictate otherwise: is it the voice of God???
Not only does Eve light a candle, but she becomes younger as she enters
further into the cave.
Lastly, Cain was this bold on a few other occassions: one, when Morpheus
demanded his commission, secondly, during TKO, when the Furies are at full
throttle and Abel dies originally (I believe).
Ok, not so lastly, if the new Dream is not _Morpheus_ is he going to keep
the name Daniel--seems kinda boring for a Dream King :)
Michael Denton(jm...@ra.msstate.edu)
Marc Singer
>
>Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
>holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors. Is Destiny despairing,
>is that why she sees him?
That's not a boomerang, it's a straight razor. The only two people we can
clearly make out (besides Destiny) are suicides... eerie, moody, terrific.
>I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking him in
>the eye.
Perhaps she is showing that he can cry (despair), Desire is showing that
he can desire, etc.?
And if Destruction is there, that would explain why Eblis can only not
*ultimately* destroy. (As opposed to dreaming, which he can't do at all.)
>One of the pictures behind Dream's throne is Edward Moench's (sp?)
>"The Scream". I don't recognize any others, although the graveyard
>right above his head could be outside the Necropolis Litharge.
William Blake's "Ancient of Days" is next to "The Scream."
>Page 23 panel 1 has a Siamese or Persian cat crouching on the rocks.
>Could this be the "Mistress" from "Dream of a Thousand Cats"?
>Meanwhile Alex recites a line from issue one (unfortunately lettered
>wrong).
Loved seeing that quote return, though...
>Well, that was really long, wasn't it? I hope anyone who made it this
>far found it interesting.
Extremely. Great not-annotations. :)
Marc
Michael A. Chary
Carl Fink (ca...@panix.com) writes:
> This isn't meant to be an annotation of the first issue of "The Wake",
> just some things I noticed in it.
I am *really* tempted to say something, but I won't :)
> Page 1 -- is Destiny's garden overgrown and poorly tended? Looks like
> it to me. Is the arch over the entrance to his dwelling a Rorshach
Let's start a fund to hire a gardener for Destiny :)
> Desire apparently is still in the Heart. Why does it get two
> messengers, not one?
I believe those were love birds.
> 5 -- Delirium's expression is amazing - perhaps the best thing about
> the excellent art by Michael Zulli this issue.
ASgreed. Fantastic art.
> Note that when Delirium mentions Destruction, Destiny says that it
> "appears" that he hasn't come. I suspect that he has.
Good catch, I hadn't noticed.
> Here, and on 4 and 15, Destiny's robe is drawn as transparent near the
> hem -- you can see the grass through it. Why?
It's always nbeen drawn that way, to the best of my knowledge. Even before
Gaiman got hold of him.
> It's entirely appropriate that Desire makes his genitals, of course.
> <g>
But why does Despair make the eyes?
> Note also that Barnabas brings a stick which apparently is used to
> build Eblis O'Shaughnessy -- is he Destruction in disguise?
Interesting thought, but he'd have had to be fooling Destiny, and I'd like
to think that isn't possible.
> I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking him in
> the eye.
She was making the eyes, I thought.
> Page 15, the caption says "Destiny led his siblings and their new-made
> attendant." but the art shows Desire in front. Okay, it's probably
> trivial. Again, though, if the narrator mentions Eblis, why not
> Barnabas, unless Barnabas is in reality one of those siblings?
Or unless he's a pet?
> Page 23 panel 1 has a Siamese or Persian cat crouching on the rocks.
> Could this be the "Mistress" from "Dream of a Thousand Cats"?
> Meanwhile Alex recites a line from issue one (unfortunately lettered
> wrong).
Geez, I feel like I don't read this title. I mean, elmo got far more out of
it than I ever did, but I didn't notice half this stuff :)
> Also, that seems to be Odin walking down the stairs in the background.
For instance..
--
When there's no one there, it's Norg.
"The BBC's trailer department keeps calling the O J Simpson case "the trial
of the century." Sure, OJ's a big name, but I still think the title belongs,
narrowly, to Nuremberg." - Jack Hughes, "The Independent on Sunday."
Marc Singer
Michael A. Chary <bf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>> Note also that Barnabas brings a stick which apparently is used to
>> build Eblis O'Shaughnessy -- is he Destruction in disguise?
>
>to think that isn't possible.
Unless Destiny was destined to be fooled. God, fate is a great literary
device, innit? :) Seriously, though, the "it would appear not" might
even suggest that Destiny *wasn't* fooled -- assuming that Destruction was
there at all! -- but he just kept quiet about it.
Why would Destruction avoid talking to Despair, though, or any of the
rest? Maybe he'll do it later.
Marc
Jeff Bulf
>Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
>holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors. Is Destiny despairing,
>is that why she sees him?
Hooboy, I see controversy ahead on this one. I think mirrors are the
way Despair looks at anybody. Still, Destiny could be despairing.
Who knows what implications he sees in Dream's fate.
Notice Zulli himself in the mirror above and in front of Destiny?
Some of this must be playful, not gospel.
>Page 3 -- Death is walking a field, in a manner reminding me of the
>brief glimpse of Delight...only there's a tank turret in the right
>background.
To me Death's face looks pensive or resigned, not delighted. Doesn't
remind me of Delight at all. As for the tank, a battlefield after
the battle would be a ntural place for Death to be going about her
job.
>Desire apparently is still in the Heart. Why does it get two
>messengers, not one?
Don't turtle-doves traditionally come in pairs?
>Here, and on 4 and 15, Destiny's robe is drawn as transparent near the
>hem -- you can see the grass through it. Why?
Hmmm... we see the grass through the robe, but not Destiny's own feet
or legs. Does Destiny even have feet? Have we ever seen beneath
those robes?
>Page 7 & 8 -- The Endless make a man out of mud (and sticks). Death
>speaks of having done something like this before, and breathes a
>literal breath of life into him. (Destruction told Orpheus that she
>speaks to everyone before they're born.) Seemingly the Endless (as
>the Creator's agents) made Adam, too. Or something.
Hmmm again... I took Death's remark as referrig to the death and
replacement of the original Despair. Delirium's remark to Despair
seems to corroborate the notion.
>Note also that Barnabas brings a stick which apparently is used to
>build Eblis O'Shaughnessy -- is he Destruction in disguise?
Eblis' inabilty to destroy or dream seems to imply that neither
Dream nor Destruction participated in his making.
(Hmm... Can he woof?)
>More echoes -- Dream's recreation of Mervyn on page 16 and 17 echoes
>the other Endless's creation of Eblis O'Shaughnessy quite closely.
Notice the door-wardens over the castle entrance. Wyvern has moved
to Gryphon's old position. Wyvern's old position is vacant.
Hippogriff is still in place.
>Well, that was really long, wasn't it? I hope anyone who made it this
>far found it interesting.
Indeed.
Hope my perspective has added to the interest.
Somebody else remarked that the angel Duma is returning the key to hell
to The Dreaming. He is definitely wearing the key, but couldn't he be
wearing it as one of his posessions that he keeps with him?
Does anthing suggest he intends to leave without it?
I mean, like I carry my apartment key when I go to Disneyland,
but I don't give it to Mickey.
Finally - add my voice to the welcome for M. Zulli's art. It has been
a *long* time since The (late, lamented) Puma Blues.
___ ___/ ___ - Jeff
/ / / drme...@netcom.com
/ ____
/ / / "Without love in the Dream
____/ _______/ it'll never come true."
Dan Williams
: This isn't meant to be an annotation of the first issue of "The Wake",
: just some things I noticed in it.
: Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
: holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors. Is Destiny despairing,
: is that why she sees him?
Destiny was uncertain of the outcome initially and the final knowledge
of his brothers fate causes the despair. Introspection about the causes
of his brothers suicide causes him to consider it for himself?
Also that is an old style straight razor, not a boomerang.
: Page 3 -- Death is walking a field, in a manner reminding me of the
: brief glimpse of Delight...only there's a tank turret in the right
: background.
A battlefield is someplace you would expect to find death. The eagle
as a messenger for her suprized me though.
: Desire apparently is still in the Heart. Why does it get two
: messengers, not one?
Because of the duality of its nature.
: Page 4 -- Delirium recites a broken version of the same rhyme Eve and
: Abel did before, and describes her messenger. A magpie of course
: makes perfect sense for her. Interesting that Barnabas never speaks a
: word in this issue -- is Dream's prohibition on his speaking about
: family business (or while their family is speaking together) still in
: effect?
: 5 -- Delirium's expression is amazing - perhaps the best thing about
: the excellent art by Michael Zulli this issue.
I thought the initial portrait of Desire was very well done as well.
: Note that when Delirium mentions Destruction, Destiny says that it
: "appears" that he hasn't come. I suspect that he has.
: Here, and on 4 and 15, Destiny's robe is drawn as transparent near the
: hem -- you can see the grass through it. Why?
Because your fate isn't always clear? :-)
: Page 7 & 8 -- The Endless make a man out of mud (and sticks). Death
: speaks of having done something like this before, and breathes a
: literal breath of life into him. (Destruction told Orpheus that she
: speaks to everyone before they're born.) Seemingly the Endless (as
: the Creator's agents) made Adam, too. Or something.
: It's entirely appropriate that Desire makes his genitals, of course.
: <g>
: When Delirium sits to sculpt Eblis, mushrooms and a tiny house sprout
: from the ground she rests on.
: Destiny has his book open on 7, for the only time in this issue. The
: illustration on that page of the book shows a reduced version of the
: very panel in which it appears.
: Note also that Barnabas brings a stick which apparently is used to
: build Eblis O'Shaughnessy -- is he Destruction in disguise?
If so we might expect him to be able to destroy something durring this
arc.
: I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking him in
: the eye.
Tears are associated with despair.
--
Daniel J. Williams URL> http://www.peak.org/~djwilli
Opinions, and spelling expressed here are uniquely my own.
"Trust me, I'm a senator." --Tenzil Kem
Kevin Meehan
the golem Eblis O'Shaughnessy, she's making a rather grim jest. Eblis is
an Arabic name for Satan. Eblis was of the order of Jinns and so was
created of fire. When God commanded him to worship Adam, Eblis refused
because Adam was made of clay (in other versions of the story, Eblis
refused because he would bow to God alone). You can find a reference to
the story in the 18th Sura of the Koran, as well as a definition of
Eblis in the Dictionary of Angels.
The only other point is that if we're looking at Death in her realm
on page 4, then the ruined tank may be of significance.
"You know, if Ed Wood had done the Star Wars movies, we'd of had all
nine of those babies done in two years for a total cost of $2,000,000."
David Goldfarb
)Page 1 -- is Destiny's garden overgrown and poorly tended? Looks like
)it to me.
No more so than usual, I thought.
Is the arch over the entrance to his dwelling a Rorshach
)blot? Again, it seems to be.
It's symmetrical, but it doesn't particularly recall an
inkblot to me.
One doesn't surprise Destiny, of
)course, so he was deliberately waiting for his messenger in his
)Gallery. He's shown standing beside his own portrait -- but up to
)now, the Endless haven't had their own portraits in their galleries,
)have they?
Usually each of them has had a mirror in the appropriate
spot. (Cf. 21:5:1.) The art doesn't make it quite clear, but that
could be a reflection.
)Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
)holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors.
Not a boomerang, a straight razor.
)Page 3 --
)
)Desire apparently is still in the Heart. Why does it get two
)messengers, not one?
Each of the endless gets an appropriate messenger. (Anyone
recognize what Destiny's was, btw?) What better for Desire than a
pair of lovebirds?
)5 --
)Note that when Delirium mentions Destruction, Destiny says that it
)"appears" that he hasn't come. I suspect that he has.
My speculation, actually, is that a private acknowledgement
of Dream's death was what brought Destruction to Litharge back in #55.
)Destiny has his book open on 7, for the only time in this issue. The
)illustration on that page of the book shows a reduced version of the
)very panel in which it appears.
Nice catch...I missed that.
)I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking [Eblis
)O'Shaughnessy] in the eye.
She's putting despair in him. A hook in the eye is one of her
motifs.
I wonder if the Endless made an envoy the last time round.
That would be quite an interesting character: someone with all the
faculties of a human...except the capacity to despair.
)One of the pictures behind Dream's throne is Edward Moench's (sp?)
)"The Scream".
Munch, or perhaps Muench.
)Page 22 --
)Nuala is very
)different from the hairy imp of her former "true" appearance.
I can't help wondering if this is intentional or a
mistake in the art. Nuala's true form should be plain almost to
the point of ugliness, or an important point is lost. Notice Titania
coming in on her horse at the top of panel one, btw.
)Page 23 panel 1 has a Siamese or Persian cat crouching on the rocks.
)Could this be the "Mistress" from "Dream of a Thousand Cats"?
Nice catch, again.
)The toad-stone, a toad trapped in a stone which remains
)alive and eventually breaks free?
Is that what it is? I had thought of stories that each toad
has a precious jewel embedded in its skull. (Some of them even have
it be the Philosopher's Stone.)
)Well, that was really long, wasn't it? I hope anyone who made it this
)far found it interesting.
Oh, indeed. I've saved it and will make use of it at the proper time.
David Goldfarb <*>| "All around me darkness gathers
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | Fading is the sun that shone
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | We must speak of other matters
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | You can be me when I'm gone."
David Goldfarb
)> Here, and on 4 and 15, Destiny's robe is drawn as transparent near the
)> hem -- you can see the grass through it. Why?
)
)It's always been drawn that way, to the best of my knowledge. Even before
)Gaiman got hold of him.
Well, not always. I happen to have a copy of _Superman_ #352,
cover date October 1980. The lead story is "Superman's Day of Destiny!",
and in it Curt Swan draws Destiny (who is in purple rather than grey
throughout) solid all through, right down to feet covered in little
purple booties. This looked just as comical as it sounds.
David Goldfarb <*>|"Kosh is always and forever *exactly* what he
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | appears to be... At the same time, Kosh is
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | absolutely *nothing* like what he appears to be.
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | These are not contradictory statements."
| -- J. Michael Straczynski
Cthulhu
: : Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
: : holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors. Is Destiny despairing,
: : is that why she sees him?
: Destiny was uncertain of the outcome initially and the final knowledge
: of his brothers fate causes the despair. Introspection about the causes
: of his brothers suicide causes him to consider it for himself?
: Also that is an old style straight razor, not a boomerang.
Well I haven't gone to the store yet to pick it up, but my guess is that
Destiny is nearing the end of his book (as shown in the last arc) and
knowing when things end and them being right around the corner would
give anyone cause to despair I'd imagine.
Cth
jnevins
>Page 7 & 8 -- The Endless make a man out of mud (and sticks). Death
>speaks of having done something like this before, and breathes a
>literal breath of life into him. (Destruction told Orpheus that she
>speaks to everyone before they're born.) Seemingly the Endless (as
>the Creator's agents) made Adam, too. Or something.
actually, I don't think it's Adam, which was made flesh, but a reference
to a golem - most famous of which was Rabbi Low of Poland's, 16th century
- which maintains its earthen body.
>When Delirium sits to sculpt Eblis, mushrooms and a tiny house sprout
>from the ground she rests on.
The name "Eblis" (more properly spelled Iblis) is the "chief of the
spirits of evil; the prince of darkness" in traditional Muslim myths - he
was the one who refused to bow to Adam when God commanded, arguing that a
being made of fire could not bow to a being made of clay. So I guess
Delirium's naming of the golem is a sort of ironic joke. Deepr meanings
than that I can't guess at...
>I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking him in
>the eye.
well - we've seen her clawing her own eyes with her hook-ring. And her
realm is full of mirrors, through which she looks at everyone in
despair. Maybe Gaiman is making some sort of comment on the nature of
despair and sight?
jess
"Cross the border, close the gap"
Marc Singer
David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> Each of the endless gets an appropriate messenger. (Anyone
>recognize what Destiny's was, btw?)
I thought it might be a dove -- and a Biblical messenger would be vaguely
appropriate for the somber Destiny. (He does carry *a* book... *the* book,
even...)
> I wonder if the Endless made an envoy the last time round.
>That would be quite an interesting character: someone with all the
>faculties of a human...except the capacity to despair.
Knowing Gaiman, it's even possible (if highly improbable) that we've already
seen this envoy. Have there been any characters so far who've been unable
to Despair?
Marc
Gilbert Chew
In article <O-8xlWUdsu$U07...@panix.com>, ca...@panix.com (Carl Fink) writes:
|>Page 1 -- [Destiny}'s shown standing beside his own portrait -- but up to
|>now, the Endless haven't had their own portraits in their galleries,
|>have they?
|>
|>Page 2 -- Despair seems to have a hanged man, Destiny, and someone
|>holding a boomerang reflected in her mirrors. Is Destiny despairing,
|>is that why she sees him?
Each of the Endless has portraits of the others in their respective
galleries. In place of a portrait of oneself, a framed mirror hangs.
I assume the "portrait" of Destiny is actually a mirror.
Despair looks out through mirrors. I think she can look out through
any mirror; she's just usually found studying the mirrors that interest
her the most, namely the mirrors facing people in despair. However,
perhaps she can also look through the mirror in Destiny's gallery; thus,
Destiny need not be despairing; he just has to be in his gallery.
Peter Wong
>But why does Despair make the eyes?
Because the eyes are the windows to/mirrors of the soul?
This is just my guess.
-Peter
smithers
> And two more points, as long as we're on the subject. When Del names
>the golem Eblis O'Shaughnessy, she's making a rather grim jest. Eblis is
>an Arabic name for Satan. Eblis was of the order of Jinns and so was
>created of fire. When God commanded him to worship Adam, Eblis refused
>because Adam was made of clay (in other versions of the story, Eblis
>refused because he would bow to God alone). You can find a reference to
>the story in the 18th Sura of the Koran, as well as a definition of
>Eblis in the Dictionary of Angels.
> The only other point is that if we're looking at Death in her realm
>on page 4, then the ruined tank may be of significance.
>
Thanks,
Knowing Gaiman's love of hiding things in names like that (see Annot.#1
for the yellow pages line) I knew it had to meadn something.
Now: what does OShaughnessy mean?
Carl Fink
jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (jnevins) wrote:
>ca...@panix.com (Carl Fink) writes:
>
>>Page 7 & 8 -- The Endless make a man out of mud (and sticks). Death
>>speaks of having done something like this before, and breathes a
>>literal breath of life into him. (Destruction told Orpheus that she
>>speaks to everyone before they're born.) Seemingly the Endless (as
>>the Creator's agents) made Adam, too. Or something.
>
>to a golem - most famous of which was Rabbi Low of Poland's, 16th century
>- which maintains its earthen body.
>
Well, clearly Neil is referring to the Golem story -- in the original
the writing is on his forehead, not his chest, but it's the same basic
idea. Note, though, that "Adam" literally *means* "clay" or "mud".
The "breath of life" thing is also big in Jewish tradition, I
remember.
Carl Fink
>was in fact Orpheus', not Morpheus' - we were right and you were wrong.
Why in the world would you think that? It's increasingly obvious that
it's Morpheus' funeral.
New thing -- has anyone else noticed that Delirium is no longer drawn
as a child? She was always the shortest of the Endless after Despair,
but now she's as tall as Death, taller than Desire.
I think Destruction's prediction of her next transformation is about
to be fulfilled.
Cthulhu
Actually I just picked up the issue today and I looked closely at this
panel and if you notice, you'll see the hook doesn't go in the eye,
but an energy shoots forth from her finger. And underneath that
finger, *poof* a tear. Surely a sign of Despair I'd say.
Cth
Cthulhu
yet. Of course it's just a throwaway, but hey, it popped out at me.
On page 12, Dream recreates Abel. Note his boots and their shape/position.
Now pop over to page 20 and look at the stained glass windows. See the
boots?
Now note the picture beside the boots on page 20. It's a pumpkin growing.
Almost an exact copy of the one on page 16 where Dream recreates Mervyn.
The only problem I see with this is the 2 pumpkins, which I have no idea
the significance of. Anyone?
And finally... on pages 19-20, when Gilbert/Fiddler's Green is being
recreated, the stained glass windows (2 of them) picture a rose
garden (ack just realized, a *ROSE* garden). When Gilbert refuses
to be recreated, the two windows are now empty.
So, anyone want to comment on the 2 pumpkins or the Rose Garden
stuff? It looks like it's put there for a reason.
Cth
Jim Kozak
: Well I haven't gone to the store yet to pick it up, but my guess is that
: Destiny is nearing the end of his book
Destiny's cameo in Gaiman's "The Books of Magic" would contridict this
notion. In 1995, Destiny is nowhere near the end of his book.
(as shown in the last arc)
It was?
Jim Kozak
I assumed Death was tending to a recent battlefield, which would be a
typical place for her to hang out between family adventures.
Andrew Farrell
>It's entirely appropriate that Desire makes his genitals, of course.
><g>
>I'm not at all clear on the significance of Despair's poking him in
>the eye.
Hmm. Well, about 20 messages later, noone seems to have arrived at the same
conclusion as me, so I may have misinterpreted the art (It's annotating
the annotations without a copy of the original! Yaay!).
As Desire forms the genitals, Despair creates the tearducts, both an
important part of their gift. The other Endless's gifts are more
metaphysical: Death gives him life, Destiny tells him a shortened
version of his story, and Delirium gives him his name. It's not clear
how the last gives him the capacity for Delirium: perhaps it's the
change she works on the earth he's made out of that does so.
Andrew.
--
Whereabouts: Mathsoc, Trinity, Centre of The Universe.
...characterised by a series of repetetive beats, or Bez.
David Crotty
>
>A battlefield is someplace you would expect to find death. The eagle
>as a messenger for her suprized me though.
>
I believe it wasn't an eagle, but some kind of falcon (Peregrine? Any
bird watchers out there?). At least definitely some kind of raptor.
A bird of prey seems an appropriate messenger for the bringer of death
(especially since Morpheus has the market on Ravens cornered).
dave
fredrick b. chary
I was thinking that a passenger pigeon would have been perfect :)
Mike, using Fred's account :)
Marty Busse
It's been a long time since I've read Sandman-who were all the Endless?
What were their names? ( I remember Dream, Destruction, Death and
Delirium, but who were the others?)
--
"There is no escape from the evil of power."-Hans Morgenthau
Dan Eyer
> A couple of other points (I really liked most of yours):
>
>The messengers that Desire gets seem to be lovebirds (which you
>usually see in pairs). I think this is why s/he gets two.
Also, remember that "Desire has never been satisfied with just one
of anything, save for the Threshhold itself". (not sure if that quote is
quite right, but it's close)
Eschel Abraham Hamel
<SPOILERS>
Cthulhu (cth...@cybernetics.net) wrote:
: On page 12, Dream recreates Abel. Note his boots and their shape/position.
: Now pop over to page 20 and look at the stained glass windows. See the
: boots?
: Now note the picture beside the boots on page 20. It's a pumpkin growing.
: Almost an exact copy of the one on page 16 where Dream recreates Mervyn.
: The only problem I see with this is the 2 pumpkins, which I have no idea
: the significance of. Anyone?
: And finally... on pages 19-20, when Gilbert/Fiddler's Green is being
: recreated, the stained glass windows (2 of them) picture a rose
: garden (ack just realized, a *ROSE* garden). When Gilbert refuses
: to be recreated, the two windows are now empty.
I'm thinking that the room represents the rebirth of the dreaming. So
perhaps you have a stained glass window to represent each individual
recreated. When Fiddler's Green refused to be reborn/recreated, his
window (perhaps there are rose gardens on the Green?) blackened.
--
Eschel Hamel |
http://grove.ufl.edu/~lazarus |
laz...@grove.ufl.edu | This Area Under
alba...@ufcc.ufl.edu | Construction...
eha...@mail.vaxu.org |
Katie Schwarz
In article <O-8xlWUdsu$U07...@panix.com>, Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
>Page 22 -- As people arrive for the Wake proper, Bast and Lyta look
>like their real selves, as does Ric Madoc, sort of. Robert Gadling is
>back in his "Hob" clothes, and Alex Burgess as what he still thinks of
>himself as, a child (of his dominating father?).
Hob is dressed pretty much the way he was when Dream first spoke to him,
back in 1389 (including beard). Alex Burgess looks the way he did in his
dream at the end of Sandman #1 -- I agree with you about why that's his
dream image.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie Schwarz ka...@physics.berkeley.edu
It's split vote time again...
[YES] rac.xbooks --> rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks
[NO] rac.dc.lsh (unnecessary)
[YES] rac.dc.vertigo (to avoid worrying about who's in the DC universe)
Andrew Farrell
>Pages 5-6: I hope the two attendants of the Necropolis Sithcundman are
>Chantal and Zelda (no longer veiled since the Necropolis would accept
>them for who they are, they wouldn't have to hide). It would be the
>perfect place for them to spend eternity.
Except that the denizens of the Necropolis are definitely alive. Strange,
but not dead. Unless you're postulating a double reincarnation, which is far
too romantic for a writer of Gaiman's caliber:).
>Page 18: I have trouble believing Lyta couldn't find out that Carla was
>dead, considering the Corinthian discovered it easily. Was the Corinthian
>using supernatural tracking powers or something? Also, "she's cleaned out
>her bank account" sounds odd, considering how rich she is. I really, really
>hope she finds out exactly what she's done in the next couple of issues;
>I'm tired of her being characterized as clueless.
Sure, Lyta could go back to her old place, call the cops, and wait until
everything that happens gets translated into a frame of reference that she
could understand, but if I woke up with a sense that something strange had
happened, and with some of the dreams she must have remembered, and then
someone told me that my life was in danger (and I'm assuming that Larissa
told her at least the magnitude of what was going down), then I'd hit the
ground running, rather than wait around. Thus, Lyta is smart, but in well
over her head. Of course, it's a weakness of Gaiman's portrayal of Lyta
that she's just a strongwoman, without the network of incredibly powerful
friends that she'd have if this story were written closer to the DCU, but
that's the character Gaiman needed for the story.
While there's annotations happening, and without wanting to go find the main
thread, there are two meanings of Wake in the title (that which follows after
an event) and in the title for the next issue (the congregation after a death
but before a funeral). It seems likely that the third issue will feature the
meaning "to awaken after sleep".
Looking the definitions up just now, I found that the first and second
definitions listed above are from entirely different sources, whereas the
second comes from the third, which is exactly not what I would have imagined.
Sharing my sense of wonder (and ignorance) with the world,
Andrew
jnevins
>>I really, really
>>hope she finds out exactly what she's done in the next couple of issues;
>>I'm tired of her being characterized as clueless.
>I hope she get's what's coming to her. >:P I think it would be really
>appropriate if Lyta was confronted by the maiden-mother-crone trio of
>Nuala-Rose-Thessaly, and something nasty was done to her.
It's a poor work(wo)man who blames his/her tools. Lyta was a tool,
nothing more. It's not really her fault - Morpheus knew what was
happening, could have prevented it, but didn't. Don't blame Lyta.
Marc Singer
Katie Schwarz <ka...@physics2.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>Page 14: I thought Eve and Matthew's conversation was very heavy-
>handedly the author's instructions on the right and wrong ways to react
>to a friend's death. When she says "Isn't that a rather self-centered
>point of view?" there may be some truth to that, but I find it really
>smug and condescending of Eve to say it like that. Gak. No wonder he
>tells her to go away, she deserves it.
Agreed. The tendency of Gaiman to make some characters always "right,"
no matter how rude or crass their sentiments (Eve, Death), and some characters
always "wrong," to matter how honest or noble theirs (Matt, Mervyn), really
irks me. I'm trying to think if Matt has *ever* been permitted by Gaiman
to have the "right" response, and the only one I can think of is when he
told Cain he sounded like Vincent Price. :) Sure, Matt has very normal,
sane reactions that feel right, but there's always some know-it-all from the
cast telling him he's not.
>Page 24: Why is Desire carrying a piece of a wall?
Maybe they're going to do a production of "Pyramus and Thisbe"? :-)
What are Death and
>Delirium carrying? I guess we'll find out next issue.
Seriously, I wonder if those are bricks for building a cairn or something.
Marc
Tehshik Yoon
>Pages 5-6: I hope the two attendants of the Necropolis Sithcundman are
>Chantal and Zelda (no longer veiled since the Necropolis would accept
>them for who they are, they wouldn't have to hide). It would be the
>perfect place for them to spend eternity.
But the Necropolis isn't an afterlife; it's a real place (insofar as
anyplace in Sandman is a real place, of course). I think it would be a
little cheesy to have Chantal and Zelda spending their afterlives in a
morbid paradise. Better just to say they're dead and leave it at that.
>Page 18: I have trouble believing Lyta couldn't find out that Carla was
>dead, considering the Corinthian discovered it easily. Was the Corinthian
>using supernatural tracking powers or something?
I would assume so. The Corinthian ended up going to a different realm
(Nifelheim or whatever) to look for Daniel; he couldn't have been using
mundane methods of travel. Besides, Lyta hasn't gotten all of her sanity
back yet, according to this last issue. She probably hasn't really been
looking too hard for Carla.
>Also, "she's cleaned out
>her bank account" sounds odd, considering how rich she is.
I thought that meant she withdrew all of her money and is running with it.
>I really, really
>hope she finds out exactly what she's done in the next couple of issues;
>I'm tired of her being characterized as clueless.
I hope she get's what's coming to her. >:P I think it would be really
appropriate if Lyta was confronted by the maiden-mother-crone trio of
Nuala-Rose-Thessaly, and something nasty was done to her.
>Page 24: Why is Desire carrying a piece of a wall? What are Death and
>Delirium carrying? I guess we'll find out next issue.
My guess is they're building Morpheus's sarcophagus. But we'll know for
sure in a month or two. (What's up with the publishing schedule anyway?)
-Tehshik
Katie Schwarz
>Not only does Eve light a candle, but she becomes younger as she enters
>further into the cave.
And then she gets older again as she continues talking to Matthew. She
was cycling through her maiden/mother/crone forms, as she's often been
shown doing before (#57, and Season of Mists).
Here are a few more annotation-type remarks:
The cover logo has changed: "The Sandman" has gotten a little distorted
and drifted from where it was.
Pages 5-6: I hope the two attendants of the Necropolis Sithcundman are
Chantal and Zelda (no longer veiled since the Necropolis would accept
them for who they are, they wouldn't have to hide). It would be the
perfect place for them to spend eternity.
Page 11: Cain's contract was "reissued and amended" in April of 1989,
i.e. right after the end of the first storyline (Sandman #5-7 were set
on April 1, 1989). Dream had to reissue the contract because he had
re-absorbed the power he placed in it to replenish himself when he was
running dry in #2 (this whole scene with Cain and Abel is probably a
backwards echo of #2, where Dream woke up from exhaustion, was greeted
by Abel whom he barely recognized, and took back a portion of his power
from Abel and Cain). He probably wasn't able to reissue the contract
until after he got back all his tools and reclaimed the power of the
ruby. The legible bits of the contract seem to be "Party of the first
part... Dawn of time... Mystery... Secrets... Amended..."
Page 14: I thought Eve and Matthew's conversation was very heavy-
handedly the author's instructions on the right and wrong ways to react
to a friend's death. When she says "Isn't that a rather self-centered
point of view?" there may be some truth to that, but I find it really
smug and condescending of Eve to say it like that. Gak. No wonder he
tells her to go away, she deserves it.
Page 15: Ric Madoc can write again "for the first time in half a decade."
This is an approximation: the Calliope story was March 1990 (it says so
in the captions) and story time has only gotten up to the spring of
1994 so far. Page 18: Alex Burgess "slept for five years." That's about
right; he was cursed in late 1988, and woke up in early 1994.
Page 18: I have trouble believing Lyta couldn't find out that Carla was
dead, considering the Corinthian discovered it easily. Was the Corinthian
using supernatural tracking powers or something? Also, "she's cleaned out
her bank account" sounds odd, considering how rich she is. I really, really
hope she finds out exactly what she's done in the next couple of issues;
I'm tired of her being characterized as clueless.
Page 24: Why is Desire carrying a piece of a wall? What are Death and
Delirium carrying? I guess we'll find out next issue.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie Schwarz
>As Desire forms the genitals, Despair creates the tearducts, both an
>important part of their gift. The other Endless's gifts are more
>metaphysical: Death gives him life, Destiny tells him a shortened
>version of his story, and Delirium gives him his name. It's not clear
>how the last gives him the capacity for Delirium: perhaps it's the
>change she works on the earth he's made out of that does so.
It sounded to me like anybody could have named him, Delirium just
wanted to ("*I* want to name him").
I really liked how Delirium was the one to give the envoy a light to
guide him. She's the one who has the secret knowledge, about the paths
outside Destiny's garden, about the things about the Endless that no
one else knows. But she also can't stand the burden of her knowledge
("sometimes not knowing is the only thing that makes it OK" -- Del in
the conversation with Destruction, #48), so she always attributes the
knowledge and the guiding to something *outside* herself: the glowing
jellyfish, the Borghal Rantipole, the magpie, the envelope in Brief
Lives.
Del's word balloons had white centers again this issue, the way they
did when Dream collapsed in Destiny's garden and she had to pick him
up (#47). Lucidity is always linked with sorrow and pain for her. She
looked gaunt, sunken-eyed, which I liked -- it's good to see her dark
side showing through. I'm a little tired of her stealing all the scenes
she's in, though.
Katie Schwarz
>Abel did before, and describes her messenger. A magpie of course
>makes perfect sense for her. Interesting that Barnabas never speaks a
>word in this issue -- is Dream's prohibition on his speaking about
>family business (or while their family is speaking together) still in
>effect?
I thought it was Destruction who actually gave Barnabas that order
(Barnabas probably wouldn't have obeyed Dream, and the old Dream's commands
don't seem to be in effect anymore, like Alex Burgess's curse). Maybe
he didn't talk because his gruff curmudgeonly style would have been out of
place.
>5 -- Delirium's expression is amazing - perhaps the best thing about
>the excellent art by Michael Zulli this issue.
Wonderful payoff on the decision to reproduce the pencils uninked. Zulli's
pencils look far better here than in the previous Sandman issues he drew
where somebody else inked them: tremendous detail, but it's never obtrusive.
Also, I thought Digital Chameleon's color separations worked better with
the shiny paper than Android Image's last issue. The colors were subdued
and somber, fitting the mood.
<SNIP>
>Did anyone else notice the number of spring-symbols (resurrection
>symbols) in the Dream-related parts of this story? Climbing plants,
>flowers
The Kindly Ones was set in the winter, The Wake is set in the spring.
The old Dream often had the spiky-leaved green plants around in his
private quarters and the throne room, but the scene with Cain is the
first time we've seen them in bloom (page 11 panel 5).
Marc Singer
jnevins <jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu> wrote:
>
>It's a poor work(wo)man who blames his/her tools. Lyta was a tool,
>nothing more. It's not really her fault - Morpheus knew what was
>happening, could have prevented it, but didn't. Don't blame Lyta.
I agree. Now, I wouldn't mind seeing the Kindly Ones get what's coming to
them... but that would be difficult if not paradoxically impossible...
>jess, reminding everyone that the funeral procession viewed from the Inn
>was in fact Orpheus', not Morpheus' - we were right and you were wrong.
Sounds great. Uh, which comic are you reading? :-)
Marc
Andrew Farrell
>Andrew Farrell <afar...@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>As Desire forms the genitals, Despair creates the tearducts, both an
>>important part of their gift. The other Endless's gifts are more
>>metaphysical: Death gives him life, Destiny tells him a shortened
>>version of his story, and Delirium gives him his name. It's not clear
>>how the last gives him the capacity for Delirium: perhaps it's the
>>change she works on the earth he's made out of that does so.
>It sounded to me like anybody could have named him, Delirium just
>wanted to ("*I* want to name him").
I went back and looked at the page in question (always a good idea before
spouting off, so I'm told), and you're right, obviously. What Delirium does
have to do, according to Desire, is give him a guide. Perhaps this is the
gift of Delirium, and anyone who doesn't see flourescent jellyfishies can't
get to the center properly:). This is obviously stretching it, but I like
the theory that we see each of the Endless give Eblis their gift.
And in emendation to the above, Desire's gift is more likely to be his heart,
of course. I must do something about this annotating blind business.
Murder of Crows
>Michael Denton <jm...@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:
>>Not only does Eve light a candle, but she becomes younger as she enters
>>further into the cave.
Other than for mourning Dream's passing, what is the significance of lighting
a candle here?
>And then she gets older again as she continues talking to Matthew. She
>was cycling through her maiden/mother/crone forms, as she's often been
>shown doing before (#57, and Season of Mists).
I do not have my books with me, but if you look back through previous Eve
appearances, you will notice that Eve gets younger when in the proximity of
Matthew.
>Pages 5-6: I hope the two attendants of the Necropolis Sithcundman are
>Chantal and Zelda (no longer veiled since the Necropolis would accept
>them for who they are, they wouldn't have to hide). It would be the
>perfect place for them to spend eternity.
I am fairly certain that the citizens of the Necropolis Litharge are not dead.
Although it is not stated either way, I do not think that the dead would be
referred to as clients. It contrasts the citizens from others that come
through the city. Also, Brant Tucker(?, at World's End a safe house) stated
that they were all dead, and.. argh Petrefax's master said something to the
effect of, "No we are not. I am somewhat experienced in these matters."
Well, it's been great chattin' with ya. bye
micah
Timothy Toner
>In article <jnevins....@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>,
>jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (jnevins) wrote:
>>was in fact Orpheus', not Morpheus' - we were right and you were wrong.
>
>it's Morpheus' funeral.
I'm not so sure anymore. Why can't it be a time fluke thing, and be
Despair's funeral? It's apparent from the current storyline that an
Endless is recreated mere minutes after the old one dies. So the
_current_ despair could have been present at the funeral, and her
predecessor could be in the box? This would explain things nicely.
--
Timothy Toner - than...@interaccess.com - Whipping Boy, TEAM VISIONARY
"I've always had trouble with my employers. They forget that they're
only renting my judgement, not buying my soul. That's why they're paying
so much." - Solomon Short
jnevins
>Timothy Toner <than...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>)Why can't [the procession in #56] be a time fluke thing, and be
>)Despair's funeral? It's apparent from the current storyline that an
>)Endless is recreated mere minutes after the old one dies. So the
>)_current_ despair could have been present at the funeral, and her
>)predecessor could be in the box? This would explain things nicely.
> Well, except for where Dream was, and except for why so many
>characters from the rest of the series (who have connections to Dream
>but none known to Despair) showed up. I mean, really, why on earth would
>we see Wilkinson, Luz, and Martin Tenbones at Despair's funeral?
>Or Orpheus', for that matter? C'mon, people..."It's Morpheus, dammit!"
Because they are both Endless, and compelled to go by Dream? For that
matter, Orpheus is Dream's blood, which makes even more sense. Moreover,
the funeral took place right after Orpheus' death - common sense and
Occam's Razor say that it is Orpheus' procession. Plus, Dream wasn't
there (and I think we can assume the new Dream will be). Nor was Barnabas
or any of the humans who we see gathering in #70. Plus, Death, Despair
& Delirium looking so sad makes more sense if it takes place right
after Orpheus' death, when they are having to deal with the knowledge
that Morpheus has just signed his own death warrant, than for it to take
place after Morpheus' death, when they have had enough time to come to
grips with that fact.
"It's Orpheus - deal with it."
jess
"Cross the border, close the gap"
David Goldfarb
)Why can't [the procession in #56] be a time fluke thing, and be
)Despair's funeral? It's apparent from the current storyline that an
)Endless is recreated mere minutes after the old one dies. So the
)_current_ despair could have been present at the funeral, and her
)predecessor could be in the box? This would explain things nicely.
Well, except for where Dream was, and except for why so many
characters from the rest of the series (who have connections to Dream
but none known to Despair) showed up. I mean, really, why on earth would
we see Wilkinson, Luz, and Martin Tenbones at Despair's funeral?
Or Orpheus', for that matter? C'mon, people..."It's Morpheus, dammit!"
David Goldfarb <*>|"Poor dominoes. Your pretty empire took so long
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | to build. Now, with a snap of history's fingers...
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | down it goes."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Alan Moore, _V for Vendetta_
Gilbert Chew
In article <jnevins....@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>, jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (jnevins) writes:
|>gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
|>
|>>Timothy Toner <than...@interaccess.com> wrote:
|>>)Why can't [the procession in #56] be a time fluke thing, and be
|>>)Despair's funeral? It's apparent from the current storyline that an
|>>)Endless is recreated mere minutes after the old one dies. So the
|>>)_current_ despair could have been present at the funeral, and her
|>>)predecessor could be in the box? This would explain things nicely.
|>
|>> Well, except for where Dream was, and except for why so many
|>>characters from the rest of the series (who have connections to Dream
|>>but none known to Despair) showed up. I mean, really, why on earth would
|>>we see Wilkinson, Luz, and Martin Tenbones at Despair's funeral?
|>>Or Orpheus', for that matter? C'mon, people..."It's Morpheus, dammit!"
|>
IMHO, Morpheus would deem forcing non-acquaintances of Orpheus to be
inappropriate. He wouldn't do that.
|>Moreover,
|>the funeral took place right after Orpheus' death - common sense and
|>Occam's Razor say that it is Orpheus' procession.
Except that the death of Orpheus is not likely to cause a Reality Storm.
In spite of his impressive song composition and oracular powers, he just
wasn't Important enough.
|>Plus, Dream wasn't
|>there (and I think we can assume the new Dream will be).
Maybe, maybe not. At this point (and with all the red herrings people
complained about in TKO), it's too early to make such assumptions.
|>Nor was Barnabas
|>or any of the humans who we see gathering in #70.
The puny humans may not be in the procession. Maybe they'll just watch.
Besides, who's to say everyone in the procession was illustrated?
|>Plus, Death, Despair
|>& Delirium looking so sad makes more sense if it takes place right
|>after Orpheus' death, when they are having to deal with the knowledge
|>that Morpheus has just signed his own death warrant, than for it to take
|>place after Morpheus' death, when they have had enough time to come to
|>grips with that fact.
Lots of people cry at funerals. Plus, at the end of TKO, Death implied
that Dream could have taken the Destruction option, i.e., abandoned
his realm instead of choosing death. So ending Orpheus' life wasn't
necessarily equivalent to Morpheus signing his own death warrant, and
hence is no reason for Death, Despair, and Del to be so sad.
|>
|>"It's Orpheus - deal with it."
Probably not. Deal with it.
Neil Polowin
>Agreed. The tendency of Gaiman to make some characters always "right,"
>no matter how rude or crass their sentiments (Eve, Death), and some characters
>always "wrong," to matter how honest or noble theirs (Matt, Mervyn), really
>irks me. I'm trying to think if Matt has *ever* been permitted by Gaiman
>to have the "right" response, and the only one I can think of is when he
>told Cain he sounded like Vincent Price. :) Sure, Matt has very normal,
>sane reactions that feel right, but there's always some know-it-all from the
>cast telling him he's not.
This builds on Matt's original characterization, back in Wein & Wrightson's
Swamp Thing in the early '70's. Not particularly wise, and prone to immediate
reaction as opposed to contemplation, followed by action.
I was really struck by Matt's line Sandman 68, when he insists on joining
Dream to greet the Furies, "I was thinking about duty. And second chances.
Well? So what are we waiting for? Let's go knock 'em dead."
It seems to me that Matt was brooding in #70 because he acceded to Dream's
wishes and didn't return to join his boss.
Neil Polowin
npol...@hypernet.on.ca
amacker
Farrell) wrote:
It's not clear
> how the last gives him the capacity for Delirium: perhaps it's the
> change she works on the earth he's made out of that does so.
>
> Andrew.
> --
Maybe as in identity. Loosing your identity--your sense of "self" could
certainly drive you mad.
--amacker
--
Just because no one understands you
Doesn't mean you're an artist.
Shawn Hill
: )Page 22 --
: )Nuala is very
: )different from the hairy imp of her former "true" appearance.
: I can't help wondering if this is intentional or a
: mistake in the art. Nuala's true form should be plain almost to
: the point of ugliness, or an important point is lost. Notice Titania
: coming in on her horse at the top of panel one, btw.
Didn't she change in #60, when she defied Titania and decided to proceed
through the Gate without her charms, in search of Dream? She was already
more attractive. I think the point is that, now that she has a REAL
personality of her own, rather than an illusion of beauty, her TRUE
beauty is emerging. Her character arc involved the fact that working for
Dream made her an independent person, rather than a mindless fairy.
Shawn
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"MAYbe
someone is gonna SAVE me
My heart is made of GRAvy." -S. Malkmus and the boyz
*************************************************************
wn Hill sh...@fas.harvard.edu Sha
jnevins
>In article <jnevins....@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu>,
>jnevins <jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Because they are both Endless, and compelled to go by Dream? For that
>>matter, Orpheus is Dream's blood, which makes even more sense.
>More sense than "no sense" may still be "no sense." Virtually none of
>the characters have any connection to Orpheus; all do to Morpheus. I think
>it's pretty obvious whose funeral it was.
Orpheus is Morpheus' son. That seems like a connection (via M.) to me.
> Moreover,
>>the funeral took place right after Orpheus' death - common sense and
>>Occam's Razor say that it is Orpheus' procession.
>Wrong on both counts. It's an established fact that time loops were
>involved in the "World's End" arc (the self-engulfing Necropolis stories,
>Cluracan), so a simple chronology and Occam's Razor go right out the window.
>Also, the funeral did *not* happen right after Orpheus's death, it happened
>right after *the reality storm* -- and only the death of Morpheus, not
>Orpheus, would cause such a storm.
Time loops may have been involved, but that doesn't a priori mean that
chronology & the Razor go out the window. Moreover, the killing of
Orpheus - the shedding of Family blood by M. - is monumentous enough, in
that it will inexorably lead to Morpheus' hounding, then death (as a
sidenote, Gaiman went against Greek mythology here - M. should have been
absolved, as Electra was).
> Plus, Dream wasn't
>>there (and I think we can assume the new Dream will be). Nor was Barnabas
>>or any of the humans who we see gathering in #70.
>For one thing, why did the people we saw in #56 have to be *all* the guests
>at the funeral? I think the text even mentions that there are more than
>we see on the page. Also, many of the people are hidden from view, either
>by other people or by convenient shadows or by the coffin.
But why omit Hob Gadling? Surely he's more significant than some of the
ones we saw?
> Plus, Death, Despair
>>& Delirium looking so sad makes more sense if it takes place right
>>after Orpheus' death, when they are having to deal with the knowledge
>>that Morpheus has just signed his own death warrant, than for it to take
>>place after Morpheus' death, when they have had enough time to come to
>>grips with that fact.
>Despair never showed any affection for Orpheus. Delerium didn't even
>understand what the problem was with him being dead (maybe she didn't
>understand that he *was* dead). Neither one would care too much. On the
>other hand, Dream was their *brother*. And grief can go on for a long time;
>it isn't like getting a messenger about it automatically dispells the grief.
>Also, once again, this *didn't* happen right after Orpheus's death, but
>after a reality storm which only Morpheus's death (and perhaps also the
>Furies battling within the Dreaming) would have caused. We even saw two
>realities in conflict during TKO (the Destiny stuff), and Orpheus's death
>certainly caused no such thing.
*knocks on head* hello? is there anybody in there? OBVIOUSLY they weren't
grieving for Orpheus - they were grieving for Morpheus. They _knew_ that
he had signed his death warrant by killing Orpheus - that's why they were
sad.
>I can understand clinging to the Orpheus theory if you really wanted to
>believe Dream survived TKO... but now we know he's dead. Time to let go.
Well, you can cavalierly dismiss evidence if you wish, but your case
isn't proven - qutie the opposite...
jess
Marc Singer
jnevins <jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu> wrote:
>
>Because they are both Endless, and compelled to go by Dream? For that
>matter, Orpheus is Dream's blood, which makes even more sense.
More sense than "no sense" may still be "no sense." Virtually none of
the characters have any connection to Orpheus; all do to Morpheus. I think
it's pretty obvious whose funeral it was.
Moreover,
>the funeral took place right after Orpheus' death - common sense and
>Occam's Razor say that it is Orpheus' procession.
Wrong on both counts. It's an established fact that time loops were
involved in the "World's End" arc (the self-engulfing Necropolis stories,
Cluracan), so a simple chronology and Occam's Razor go right out the window.
Also, the funeral did *not* happen right after Orpheus's death, it happened
right after *the reality storm* -- and only the death of Morpheus, not
Orpheus, would cause such a storm.
Plus, Dream wasn't
>there (and I think we can assume the new Dream will be). Nor was Barnabas
>or any of the humans who we see gathering in #70.
For one thing, why did the people we saw in #56 have to be *all* the guests
at the funeral? I think the text even mentions that there are more than
we see on the page. Also, many of the people are hidden from view, either
by other people or by convenient shadows or by the coffin.
Plus, Death, Despair
>& Delirium looking so sad makes more sense if it takes place right
>after Orpheus' death, when they are having to deal with the knowledge
>that Morpheus has just signed his own death warrant, than for it to take
>place after Morpheus' death, when they have had enough time to come to
>grips with that fact.
Despair never showed any affection for Orpheus. Delerium didn't even
understand what the problem was with him being dead (maybe she didn't
understand that he *was* dead). Neither one would care too much. On the
other hand, Dream was their *brother*. And grief can go on for a long time;
it isn't like getting a messenger about it automatically dispells the grief.
Also, once again, this *didn't* happen right after Orpheus's death, but
after a reality storm which only Morpheus's death (and perhaps also the
Furies battling within the Dreaming) would have caused. We even saw two
realities in conflict during TKO (the Destiny stuff), and Orpheus's death
certainly caused no such thing.
I can understand clinging to the Orpheus theory if you really wanted to
believe Dream survived TKO... but now we know he's dead. Time to let go.
Marc
Damon B. Crumpler
a couple of thoughts--
[1] we see titania entering the dreaming also, behind
the group of humans.
[2] dream uses the pheonix stone to resurrect the characters--
it seems morpheus may have had something to do with that
right before he died, since the new
dream wouldn't necessarily have a need to recreate mervin
(who, once agin, is smoking)
[3] while i am a huge fan of zulli's work, and am
in awe of this issue, i did find his faces to
be very similar to each other (especially the women's)
i bring this up inresponse to the concerns about
nuala, and del getting taller.
it could just be the way zulli draws.
[4] count me in as one who's pretty sure it's destiny despairing.
just becuase he's portrayed as completely emotionless
doesn't mean he doesn't feel sad every once in a while.
[5] this arc looks to be great, but it seems it will not
in any way redeem the kindly ones by answering some of
the questions involved.
[6] i like the new dream.
[7] the death messenger looks like an eagle, but the coloration
reminds me of another bird of prey.
i'm pretty sure it's not an osprey, though i could be wrong
(they have similar coloring)
that's about the extent of my bird knowledge (except for src, but that's neither here nor there)
the bird Could be a noneagle (tho they are slimer than eagles),
and just appear beefed up due to zulli (look at how big matt looks now)
--
Fuck the Communications Decency Ammendment. Fuck the Foster filibuster
(it wasn't About credibility). Fuck the budget tax cuts. Fuck the anti-flag
burning ammendment Gingrich supports. They all just show how useless the
government is, and what a lie politics is.
Murder of Crows
>Timothy Toner <than...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>)Why can't [the procession in #56] be a time fluke thing, and be
>)Despair's funeral? It's apparent from the current storyline that an
>)Endless is recreated mere minutes after the old one dies. So the
>)_current_ despair could have been present at the funeral, and her
>)predecessor could be in the box? This would explain things nicely.
>
> Well, except for where Dream was, and except for why so many
>characters from the rest of the series (who have connections to Dream
>but none known to Despair) showed up. I mean, really, why on earth would
>we see Wilkinson, Luz, and Martin Tenbones at Despair's funeral?
>Or Orpheus', for that matter? C'mon, people..."It's Morpheus, dammit!"
>
>gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | to build. Now, with a snap of history's fingers...
>gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | down it goes."
>gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Alan Moore, _V for Vendetta_
It is likely that the moon, at the end of the procession, taking on the hue of
blood is of great significance. I would say that based on the triple goddess'
appearance in a Game of You, the moon becoming red is a fair indication of
vengeance that is about to be delivered unto _Morpheus_.
micah
Gilbert Chew
On 29 Jun 1995, Konrad Lei wrote:
> Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
> was replaced by another Endless.
Where was this indicated?
Shawn Curry
>> I wonder if the Endless made an envoy the last time round.
>>That would be quite an interesting character: someone with all the
>>faculties of a human...except the capacity to despair.
>Knowing Gaiman, it's even possible (if highly improbable) that we've already
>seen this envoy. Have there been any characters so far who've been unable
>to Despair?
How about the faceless samaritan? Always seems to show up when people
are in despair.
shawn
========================> sh...@iglou.com <======================
===========> http://www.iglou.com/members/shawn.html <===========
The Internet: It's not just for perverts and terrorists anymore.
Mah / Nicholas (MGM)
Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>> I wonder if the Endless made an envoy the last time round.
>>That would be quite an interesting character: someone with all the
>>faculties of a human...except the capacity to despair.
>
>Knowing Gaiman, it's even possible (if highly improbable) that we've already
>seen this envoy. Have there been any characters so far who've been unable
>to Despair?
>
He may mourn the passing of his loved ones, but even plague, famine and a
century of misery isn't enough to make him give up .. after all it can
only get better. Which suggests that Eblis will take fully human
form (As Adam did) as he grows, and that he'll forget about his creation.
It would also suggest a VERY good reason why Hob Gadling doesn't die
until Death takes him.
--OH
--
That is the tale the women tell each other, in their private language, that the
men children are not taught, and that the old men are too wise to learn. And in
that version of the tale perhaps things happened differently. But then, that is
a woman's tale and is never taught to men. (Gaiman/ "The Doll's House")
Konrad Lei
> A couple of other points (I really liked most of yours):
>
>Not only does Eve light a candle, but she becomes younger as she enters
>further into the cave.
She becomes younger because it is a new candle. She becomes older and
older again when the candle is burning.
-------------
Stupid idea about Despair, Delight and Delirium ......
Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
The Envoy (for the last Despair) was created by all Endless except Despair.
Could it be that the last time, it was specially made such that it
replaced Delight. It would make sense since the Envoy would have some
parts from Destiny, Death, Dream, Desire, Destruction, and especially
Delight. But the whole thing could be so enormous for it, yet it cannot
Despair. Thus, the only option is Delirium.
Delirium keeps saying he know things other do not know. Could it be related?
Also, it was shown that Destruction was very fond with Delight, but he
also stated that Despair is his favorite (after Delight -> Delirium).
So, Delight became Despair, and the Envoy became Delirium.
So, it kills two birds with one stone.
Konrad
Andrew Farrell
>ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) writes:
>>the characters have any connection to Orpheus; all do to Morpheus. I think
>>it's pretty obvious whose funeral it was.
>Orpheus is Morpheus' son. That seems like a connection (via M.) to me.
Via Morpheus is hardly sufficient. Why should a cross-section of a father's
employees (an estranged father, at that) attend his sons funeral?
>Time loops may have been involved, but that doesn't a priori mean that
>chronology & the Razor go out the window.
No, but it does mean that you cannot argue something convincingly using
chronology as your basis. Ockham's razor is a guideline for reasoning in
science, and has little or no relevance to a created, nevermind a crafted,
story.
>>For one thing, why did the people we saw in #56 have to be *all* the guests
>>at the funeral? I think the text even mentions that there are more than
>>we see on the page. Also, many of the people are hidden from view, either
>>by other people or by convenient shadows or by the coffin.
>But why omit Hob Gadling? Surely he's more significant than some of the
>ones we saw?
(i) Why should a person who meets Dream once every hundred years be
significant?
(ii) Why on earth are you assuming that he wasn't present?
>he had signed his death warrant by killing Orpheus - that's why they were
>sad.
>............ inexorably lead to Morpheus' hounding, then death ......
Are you reading the same comic as me? It's increasingly clear as the
Kindly Ones progresses that Gaiman himself in uncertain as to Morpheus's
fate, let alone that the Endless would know beforehand. Immediately after
Orpheus checks out, Desire is looking uncertain. Not griefstricken, not
worried, uncertain. Shortly before Morpheus checks out, Death reminds him
that he could just have left.
>Well, you can cavalierly dismiss evidence if you wish, but your case
>isn't proven - qutie the opposite...
Waiter? A mirror for Ms Nevins, if you please.
>jess
Andrew.
Windrider
: In article <3sk8rp$e...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>,
: Marc Singer <ma...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
: >> I wonder if the Endless made an envoy the last time round.
: >>That would be quite an interesting character: someone with all the
: >>faculties of a human...except the capacity to despair.
: >
: >Knowing Gaiman, it's even possible (if highly improbable) that we've already
: >seen this envoy. Have there been any characters so far who've been unable
: >to Despair?
: >
: Does the name Hob Gadling mean anything to you ... :)
: He may mourn the passing of his loved ones, but even plague, famine and a
: century of misery isn't enough to make him give up .. after all it can
: only get better. Which suggests that Eblis will take fully human
: form (As Adam did) as he grows, and that he'll forget about his creation.
: It would also suggest a VERY good reason why Hob Gadling doesn't die
: until Death takes him.
Isn't Hob too young? I got the impression that the old despair died
thousands, not hundreds, of years ago, probably when Delirium was
Delight. And neither Dream nor Death gave any sign of knowing him prior
to their meeting at the tavern.
: --OH
: --
: That is the tale the women tell each other, in their private language, that the
: men children are not taught, and that the old men are too wise to learn. And in
: that version of the tale perhaps things happened differently. But then, that is
: a woman's tale and is never taught to men. (Gaiman/ "The Doll's House")
So I sat there trying to figure out if he was telling me I wasn't a
woman, or actually admitting that he didn't know it.
So it appears that the new Dream isn't coming to the wake. Is it rude to
show up at your own funeral? I sort of suspect that traditionally the
others can't acknowledge the new Endless until they've finished mourning
the old one. Otherwise Death would have showed up to talk to him by now.
"When the last living thing dies, my job will be finished. I'll put the
chairs on the tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind
me when I leave." -Death, Sandman 20
Leviticus
amacker
Farrell) wrote:
(i) Why should a person who meets Dream once every hundred years be
significant?
Because they were friends.
Morpheus did not have alot of those, did he?
BTW, this whole thing about the time on the funeral procession is very
confusing to me. Since #56 I have been assuming that Time *was* looping,
or static. Should I go back and start over, without assumptions?
Carl Fink
kon...@eecg.toronto.edu (Konrad Lei) wrote:
>Stupid idea about Despair, Delight and Delirium ......
>
>Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
>was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
>who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
No, Despair was replaced by another aspect of Despair, not by another
Endless. See Morpheus' speech to his servants before his departure
for Hell, for instance, plus what actually happened when he died.
--
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com madsci...@genie.com
Assistant Sysop, GEnie's First and Fourth Science Fiction RoundTables
URL http://www.io.com/~glitz/sfrt (subject to change)
--
"Etymology is not destiny." -Lawrence Watt-Evans
Assistant Sysop, GEnie's First and Fourth SF and Fantasy RoundTables
ca...@panix.com madsci...@genie.com
Marc Singer
>
>This builds on Matt's original characterization, back in Wein & Wrightson's
>Swamp Thing in the early '70's. Not particularly wise, and prone to immediate
>reaction as opposed to contemplation, followed by action.
>
>I was really struck by Matt's line Sandman 68, when he insists on joining
>Dream to greet the Furies, "I was thinking about duty. And second chances.
>Well? So what are we waiting for? Let's go knock 'em dead."
Right. Matt was a jerk when he was human -- although even at the end, he
tried to do the right thing -- but he's been a lot better as a raven. I
think he *did* act very sanely in TKO, even wisely considering what the
options were. (Let TKO destroy everything? Embrace suicide like Dream?
I don't think so?) And yet, despite his noble actions and normal reactions,
here's yet *another* righter-than-thou Gaiman character lecturing him.
OTOH, Mervyn's final scene (before this last issue) was priceless ("We're
doing it for the boss,"), and *then* the righter-than-thou character
(Lucien) was on his side. Of course, I agreed with Lucien's sentiments,
so I see that scene more favorably. :)
Marc
Marc Singer
>
>>More sense than "no sense" may still be "no sense." Virtually none of
>>it's pretty obvious whose funeral it was.
>
>Orpheus is Morpheus' son. That seems like a connection (via M.) to me.
Nope. Most of them would have had absolutely no idea who Orpheus was.
Many of them were *not* Dream's creations, but people who had links to him:
Norton, Odin, etc. Yet none of them had links to Orpheus. If the
funeral has all the people who knew Morpheus, most of whom didn't know
Orpheus, and virtually none of the people who knew Orpheus (where were
Aristaeus or Eurydice, if it was Orpheus's funeral -- and other dead people
*were* there), then Occam's Razor -- remember that -- says it ain't
Orpheus in the coffin.
>> Moreover,
>>>the funeral took place right after Orpheus' death - common sense and
>>>Occam's Razor say that it is Orpheus' procession.
>
>>Wrong on both counts. It's an established fact that time loops were
>>involved in the "World's End" arc (the self-engulfing Necropolis stories,
>>Cluracan), so a simple chronology and Occam's Razor go right out the window.
>>Also, the funeral did *not* happen right after Orpheus's death, it happened
>>right after *the reality storm* -- and only the death of Morpheus, not
>>Orpheus, would cause such a storm.
>
>Time loops may have been involved, but that doesn't a priori mean that
>chronology & the Razor go out the window.
But it does mean that they, *in and of themselves*, don't prove anything.
Particularly the chronology, which means the funeral can be seen (by us,
the readers) before we read about Morpheus's death. The out-of-sync
storytelling means that your strongest reason for it being Orpheus's
funeral, simple proximity, is suddenly gone.
Moreover, the killing of
>Orpheus - the shedding of Family blood by M. - is monumentous enough, in
>that it will inexorably lead to Morpheus' hounding, then death (as a
>sidenote, Gaiman went against Greek mythology here - M. should have been
>absolved, as Electra was).
Ridiculous, for two reasons:
1. Orpheus simply wasn't important enough for his death to directly cause
a reality storm -- only the Dream was, as shown by the Destinies who started
diverging and reconverging when *Dream's* fate was in question. That,
essentially, *was* the reality storm -- and it was for Dream, and it was
far beyond Orpheus's scope.
2. If Orpheus's death leading to Dream's death is enough to trigger a storm,
then storms would also have been caused by Daniel getting kidnapped, Dream
falling in love with Thessally, Dream joining Del on her quest... all these
led, just as inevitably, to his demise. None of them caused storms, either.
Daniel's kidnapping, in particular, was a *much* more direct cause.
>>For one thing, why did the people we saw in #56 have to be *all* the guests
>>at the funeral? I think the text even mentions that there are more than
>>we see on the page. Also, many of the people are hidden from view, either
>>by other people or by convenient shadows or by the coffin.
>
>But why omit Hob Gadling? Surely he's more significant than some of the
>ones we saw?
Not to the onlookers at the World's End, who saw all the larger-than-life
characters, all the one who were the stuff of dream or legend. Hob, Lyta,
etc. would mean nothing to them, and might not be "big" enough. And, once
again, the art *deliberately* hid more than a few characters.
>>Despair never showed any affection for Orpheus. Delerium didn't even
>>understand what the problem was with him being dead (maybe she didn't
>>understand that he *was* dead). Neither one would care too much. On the
>>other hand, Dream was their *brother*. And grief can go on for a long time;
>>it isn't like getting a messenger about it automatically dispells the grief.
>>Also, once again, this *didn't* happen right after Orpheus's death, but
>>after a reality storm which only Morpheus's death (and perhaps also the
>>Furies battling within the Dreaming) would have caused. We even saw two
>>realities in conflict during TKO (the Destiny stuff), and Orpheus's death
>>certainly caused no such thing.
>
>*knocks on head* hello? is there anybody in there?
Nobody who would buy your specious argument, no. And a tone like this --
you really must be stretching to resort to it -- won't make me any more
likely to.
OBVIOUSLY they weren't
>grieving for Orpheus - they were grieving for Morpheus. They _knew_ that
>he had signed his death warrant by killing Orpheus - that's why they were
>sad.
It's only OBVIOUS if one totally buys into your theory that it's Orpheus's
funeral, which I don't, so watch yourself. And Death, in particular, told
Morpheus as late as #69 that he had other options -- so why mourn for him
before he failed to take those options? Death, of all the Endless, wouldn't
be mourning for him when he still had a chance to live.
>>I can understand clinging to the Orpheus theory if you really wanted to
>>believe Dream survived TKO... but now we know he's dead. Time to let go.
>
>Well, you can cavalierly dismiss evidence if you wish, but your case
>isn't proven - qutie the opposite...
Nothing cavalier about it at all. Orpheus in the coffin doesn't fit with
the facts of the story (reality storms, funeral attendants), or the behavior
of the characters. Dream in the coffin fits with both, and doesn't require
any strange contortions or rationalizations to make him fit.
But I think we'll see next issue...
Marc
Gilbert Chew
|>
|>So it appears that the new Dream isn't coming to the wake. Is it rude to
|>show up at your own funeral?
Well, every funeral I've been to, the person was there, lying in the casket.
I think it would be ruder to *not* have the "guest of honor" there!
Katie Schwarz
>ka...@physics2.berkeley.edu (Katie Schwarz) writes:
>>Pages 5-6: I hope the two attendants of the Necropolis Sithcundman are
>>Chantal and Zelda (no longer veiled since the Necropolis would accept
>>them for who they are, they wouldn't have to hide). It would be the
>>perfect place for them to spend eternity.
>
>anyplace in Sandman is a real place, of course). I think it would be a
>little cheesy to have Chantal and Zelda spending their afterlives in a
>morbid paradise. Better just to say they're dead and leave it at that.
Well, yeah, I guess you're right. It's definitely important to the
concept of the Necropolis that the Necropolitans are mortals who will
die themselves, not spirits. I was just engaging in a romantic fancy.
>>Also, "she's cleaned out
>>her bank account" sounds odd, considering how rich she is.
>
>I thought that meant she withdrew all of her money and is running with it.
Someone as rich as Lyta would have more than one account, and her assets
wouldn't all be so liquid she could cash them on the spur of the moment.
This is kind of a quibble, but then, Lyta's wealth is important to her
character and plots... oh well, maybe she just closed one particular
account.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie Schwarz ka...@physics.berkeley.edu
"There's no need to look for a Chimera, or a cat with three legs."
-- Jorge Luis Borges, "Death and the Compass"
Katie Schwarz
>jne...@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (jnevins) writes:
>
>>he had signed his death warrant by killing Orpheus - that's why they were
>>sad.
>
>Kindly Ones progresses that Gaiman himself in uncertain as to Morpheus's
>fate, let alone that the Endless would know beforehand. Immediately after
>Orpheus checks out, Desire is looking uncertain. Not griefstricken, not
>worried, uncertain. Shortly before Morpheus checks out, Death reminds him
>that he could just have left.
You're right that the *characters* didn't think Dream had necessarily
"signed his death warrant" by killing Orpheus (and even if they did,
they would have felt *fear* at Orpheus's funeral, not *grief*, and that
funeral scene in #56 was definitely grief). But I never had the impression
that Gaiman himself had any doubt about Dream's death, just about the
details of how to get there. All through The Kindly Ones Dream
consistently fails to do anything to save himself (fetch Daniel directly
instead of sending minions, distract Lyta from Daniel's absence, kill Lyta
by some "against-the-rules" means, ignore Nuala's boon) and I really never
felt any hope. Has Gaiman ever said whether he was uncertain about Dream's
fate?
Now, about the funeral scene: What really nails it down, I think, is the
scene with Titania in the last issue, #69. This is the scene immediately
following Dream's death, where a bolt of lightning appears in Faerie,
making Titania burst into tears and tell Cluracan "your foretelling was
true." In other words, Cluracan's vision in the Worlds' End -- the
funeral -- was a foretelling of Dream's death -- which Titania
just now felt.
Rob Ingram
:
: jess, reminding everyone that the funeral procession viewed from the Inn
: was in fact Orpheus', not Morpheus' - we were right and you were wrong.
As I remember it we saw Orpheus' funeral and he was buried in a small
square hole near the temple. I really don't understand why there is
any confusion over this matter, especially now that we _know_ Dream is
dead and, wow, there is even a _funeral_ next issue.
Rob.
David Crotty
Konrad Lei <kon...@eecg.toronto.edu> wrote:
>-------------
>Stupid idea about Despair, Delight and Delirium ......
>
>Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
>was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
>who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
>
I think you're mixing up two separate events. At some point, Delight
transformed into Delerium. At some other point, Despair died and
was replaced by the current Despair, much like Dream died and was
replaced by the new one.
dave
Marc Singer
Katie Schwarz <ka...@physics12.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
>Now, about the funeral scene: What really nails it down, I think, is the
>scene with Titania in the last issue, #69. This is the scene immediately
>following Dream's death, where a bolt of lightning appears in Faerie,
>making Titania burst into tears and tell Cluracan "your foretelling was
>true." In other words, Cluracan's vision in the Worlds' End -- the
>funeral -- was a foretelling of Dream's death -- which Titania
>just now felt.
Yup. And that scene also confirmed that some sort of time-looping is
in effect (though not necessarily involving the Cluracan adventure in #52...
what a mess...), which means the funeral's proximity to Orpheus's death (in
*our* chronology, *not* the book's) has nothing to do with Orpheus.
Marc
Glad to see the time-loop confirmed, but I'd *love* to see it all from
Cluracan's point of view... there could be two of him running around now...
Marc Singer
>In article <1995Jun28.2...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
>kon...@eecg.toronto.edu (Konrad Lei) wrote:
>>
>>Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
>>was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
>>who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
>
>Endless. See Morpheus' speech to his servants before his departure
>for Hell, for instance, plus what actually happened when he died.
I can see why somebody would think Despair was replaced by another Endless.
Hasn't it been hinted (if not outright stated) that the current Despair
had to "separate" from Desire -- hence the reason they're the twins -- and
took the separation badly?
Whatever the case, though, Delight most definitely did not become Despair.
Marc
Marc Singer
>ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) wrote:
>
>
>>> I wonder if the Endless made an envoy the last time round.
>>>That would be quite an interesting character: someone with all the
>>>faculties of a human...except the capacity to despair.
>
>>Knowing Gaiman, it's even possible (if highly improbable) that we've already
>>seen this envoy. Have there been any characters so far who've been unable
>>to Despair?
>
>
>
>are in despair.
Hey, that's a neat idea! (I must confess, I'm partially agreeing just because
I'm thrilled to find that somebody, anybody else actually *believes* in
the Faceless Samaritan...)
Marc
Ron Asbestos Dippold
Destruction are talking, Barnabas says "But you're not a dog." Destruction
replies "Not at the moment." (paraphrased)
--
Son, you have to guard against speaking more clearly than you think.
-- Howard Baker
Konrad Lei
>In article <1995Jun28.2...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
>Konrad Lei <kon...@eecg.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>-------------
>>
>>Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
>>was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
>>who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
>>
>
>transformed into Delerium. At some other point, Despair died and
>was replaced by the current Despair, much like Dream died and was
>replaced by the new one.
1) It is a crazy and stupid idea.
2) Say when is it written that they are two separate events? 8-)
3) It was stated that one of the Endless has to take up the responsibility
of Despair. I forgot whether it is in BL or TKO. The obvious choice
would be Delight/Delerium. The suitation of Dream is different as he
prepare for his death.
Konrad
Carl Fink
kon...@eecg.toronto.edu (Konrad Lei) wrote:
>
>3) It was stated that one of the Endless has to take up the responsibility
> of Despair. I forgot whether it is in BL or TKO. The obvious choice
> would be Delight/Delerium. The suitation of Dream is different as he
> prepare for his death.
No, it was not stated anywhere in the stories.
Jane Carlton
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu "David Goldfarb" writes:
> Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> )Page 22 --
> )Nuala is very
> )different from the hairy imp of her former "true" appearance.
>
> I can't help wondering if this is intentional or a
> mistake in the art. Nuala's true form should be plain almost to
> the point of ugliness, or an important point is lost. Notice Titania
> coming in on her horse at the top of panel one, btw.
Cluracan put a glamour on Nuala to placate Titania, one which only he can
remove. Since then she has gone around with this half-glam look.
--
Jane Carlton (temporarily tortoiseless)
Carl Fink
Jane Carlton <Ja...@tortshel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Cluracan put a glamour on Nuala to placate Titania, one which only he can
>remove. Since then she has gone around with this half-glam look.
He took it off toward the end of "The Kindly Ones", though, or so
I recall. I think the transformation is "real" in the fictional
context.
Gilbert Chew
On 3 Jul 1995, Konrad Lei wrote:
> Finally get my hand on my issues of BL. Okay. In Sandman #48, BL#8, page 6,
> quote:
>
> Destruction: "Poor Despair. I remember when first she assumed the mantle
> of Despair; when first she became Desire's Twin."
> Dream: "It was not easy for any of us. It was the only time ONE of
> the Endless has been destroyed, that ANOTHER aspect of one of
> us had reassumed position: We all have much to ajust to."
>
> Anyway, that's how I read it. Another meant another Endless. But it
> could just meant another Despair. But it would be more fun if it was
> another Endless.
Hmm, I might have agreed with your original interpretation if the quote
had read, "...that another of one of us had reassumed position." But the
quote indicates (at least to me) that "another" modifies "aspect," that
is, Dream is referring to another aspect of Despair, not another
(different) Endless. The individual Endless are not aspects of each
other. But each Endless (indeed, any person) is composed of many aspects.
Konrad Lei
>In article <3svih8$g...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> dacr...@cco.caltech.edu (David Crotty) writes:
>>In article <1995Jun28.2...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
>>Konrad Lei <kon...@eecg.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>>-------------
>>>Stupid idea about Despair, Delight and Delirium ......
>>>
>>>Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
>>>was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
>>>who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
>>
>>I think you're mixing up two separate events. At some point, Delight
>>transformed into Delerium. At some other point, Despair died and
>>was replaced by the current Despair, much like Dream died and was
>>replaced by the new one.
>
>1) It is a crazy and stupid idea.
>2) Say when is it written that they are two separate events? 8-)
> of Despair. I forgot whether it is in BL or TKO. The obvious choice
> would be Delight/Delerium. The suitation of Dream is different as he
> prepare for his death.
Finally get my hand on my issues of BL. Okay. In Sandman #48, BL#8, page 6,
quote:
Destruction: "Poor Despair. I remember when first she assumed the mantle
of Despair; when first she became Desire's Twin."
Dream: "It was not easy for any of us. It was the only time ONE of
the Endless has been destroyed, that ANOTHER aspect of one of
us had reassumed position: We all have much to ajust to."
Anyway, that's how I read it. Another meant another Endless. But it
could just meant another Despair. But it would be more fun if it was
another Endless.
Konrad
Konrad Lei
>In article <ieSylWUd...@panix.com>, Carl Fink <ca...@panix.com> wrote:
>>kon...@eecg.toronto.edu (Konrad Lei) wrote:
>>>Stupid idea about Despair, Delight and Delirium ......
>>>
>>>Despair was destroyed once. It was indicated (in Brief Lives) that she
>>>was replaced by another Endless. Obviously, it would have been Delight
>>>who has became Despair. Then, who is Delirium then?
>
>Hasn't it been hinted (if not outright stated) that the current Despair
>had to "separate" from Desire -- hence the reason they're the twins -- and
>took the separation badly?
Just where is it hinted that Despair is from Desire? And where is this
"badly" shown?
>Whatever the case, though, Delight most definitely did not become Despair.
And where does it say that Delight "most definitely" did not become Despair?
Konrad
Zebulon Kilroy McCarthey III
: Finally get my hand on my issues of BL. Okay. In Sandman #48, BL#8, page 6,
: quote:
: Destruction: "Poor Despair. I remember when first she assumed the mantle
: of Despair; when first she became Desire's Twin."
: Dream: "It was not easy for any of us. It was the only time ONE of
: the Endless has been destroyed, that ANOTHER aspect of one of
: us had reassumed position: We all have much to ajust to."
: Anyway, that's how I read it. Another meant another Endless. But it
: could just meant another Despair. But it would be more fun if it was
: another Endless.
: Konrad
Well, um, okay, if you've got those issues, look back at Brief Lives #2
(issue 42, page 20):
"Delirium stands in Dream's gallery, waiting for his return, remembering:
the moment she realized what was happening, that the universe was
changing, that she was growing older... she was no longer Delight, and
the blossoms had already begun to fall in her domain..."
This page seems pretty indicative that Delirium has always been Delirium
(excepting, of course, when she was Delight), which kinda precludes
Delight ever having changed into Despair.
--
Jay "Plotting the downfall
jga...@unixg.ubc.ca of humanity since 1989."
Marc Singer
Konrad Lei <kon...@eecg.toronto.edu> wrote:
>In article <3t1i6v$c...@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu> ma...@wam.umd.edu (Marc Singer) writes:
>>I can see why somebody would think Despair was replaced by another Endless.
>>Hasn't it been hinted (if not outright stated) that the current Despair
>>had to "separate" from Desire -- hence the reason they're the twins -- and
>>took the separation badly?
>
>Just where is it hinted that Despair is from Desire? And where is this
>"badly" shown?
Not shown, hinted. As for where is it hinted, I really can't recall. Perhaps
one of the Brief Lives issues... I remember something about Despair taking
the assumption of her new role very poorly, although now that I think about
it, I can't remember why I assumed she came from Desire. Maybe all that
"twins" stuff.
And Konrad, if I knew exact issue numbers, I wouldn't have started the
sentence with "Hasn't it..." and ended it with a "?".
>>Whatever the case, though, Delight most definitely did not become Despair.
>
>And where does it say that Delight "most definitely" did not become Despair?
Try the 1001 places where it says she most definitely *did* become Delerium.
The first chapter of Season of Mists, and at least once or twice in Brief
Lives. The other 998 places are equally obvious.
Marc
Jane Carlton
> In article <804711...@tortshel.demon.co.uk>,
> Jane Carlton <Ja...@tortshel.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Cluracan put a glamour on Nuala to placate Titania, one which only he can
> >remove. Since then she has gone around with this half-glam look.
>
> He took it off toward the end of "The Kindly Ones", though, or so
> I recall. I think the transformation is "real" in the fictional
> context.
Did he? Unfortunately I've moved recently and all my back issues are in a box
somewhere, so I can't check. I was certain that this had never happened (a)
because I don't remember it happening and (b) because she has always looked the
same since he put the glamour on. I could be wrong. Does anyone know for sure?
--
Jane
_
@@@ (.\
@@@@@@@@@ @ -~
@@@@@@@@@@@ Tortoiseshell Enterprises
/_/ \_\
NYBBAS
Just got back from vacation, during which I finally got my greedy paws
on this issue. I won't rehash anything already noticed, but a few things
I'm not sure were picked up--
* Delirium calls Despair "Old-Lady-Sister" or something; I'd assumed that
another aspect automatically took over and that Daniel was a whim on
Dreams' part, but perhaps a mortal successor is necessary; and perhaps
Despairs' mortal successor was an old woman.
* Matthew is perching on something that looks very similar to the
mountains in the last panel.
* Daniel's recreation of Mervyn is very similar to the Endless' creation
of Elbis.
* An owl would have been a better messenger for either Destiny or
Death; their mess. should have been reversed, IMHO. What do you want to bet
Delirium was sent a hummingbird? I wonder what bird was sent for Dream
when Despair died?
* I agree with someone whose name escapes me, that it is very
disappointing to find out that Hob knew who Dream was, esp. when we'd
never been given any indication of this.
* I like Desire's Hindu look.
Well, that's about all. Later, all.
Dex
"I was dreaming when I wrote this, so forgive me if it goes astray..."
David Goldfarb
)In article <djqzlWUd...@panix.com> ca...@panix.com "Carl Fink" writes:
)> [Cluracan] took [the glamour] off toward the end of "The Kindly Ones",
)> though, or so
)> I recall. I think the transformation is "real" in the fictional
)> context.
)
)Did he? ...
)I was certain that this had never happened (a) because I don't remember
)it happening and (b) because she has always looked the same since he put
)the glamour on. I could be wrong. Does anyone know for sure?
In #66 we see Nuala without glamour; she is brunette and wears
a red dress. Cluracan's glamour turns her blond and clothes her in a
green dress. In #68 she asks him to take it off, although we don't see
him do so; in #69 she's back to brunette and red, and in #70 she's still
brunette. In both #69 and #70, however, she looks more conventionally
pretty than she had used to.
David Goldfarb <*>|"Kosh is always and forever *exactly* what he
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | appears to be... At the same time, Kosh is
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | absolutely *nothing* like what he appears to be.
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | These are not contradictory statements."
| -- J. Michael Straczynski
Marc Singer
NYBBAS <pete...@river.it.gvsu.edu> wrote:
So, do you call yourself Nybbas because you suddenly popped up at an
important moment with absolutely no warning? :)
>
>* An owl would have been a better messenger for either Destiny or
>Death; their mess. should have been reversed, IMHO. What do you want to bet
>Delirium was sent a hummingbird?
A magpie. Page four, panel two has Del saying, "...seven for a magpie who
tells me where to go..."
> I wonder what bird was sent for Dream
>when Despair died?
A raven?
Marc
Sebastian Weinberg
: * I agree with someone whose name escapes me, that it is very
: disappointing to find out that Hob knew who Dream was, esp. when we'd
: never been given any indication of this.
: Dex
Oh, but he *has*. When Dream comes to him before his journey into hell,
Hob says something like 'Wait a minute. Queen so-and-so, a computer and you?
This must be a dream'
Furthermore, when they meet during The Kindly Ones, Hob shows no sign of
surprise or anything at the fact that Morpheus talks about sending dreams.
Ever since Season Of Mist I had assumed that Morpheus has at some time
answered the question that Hob had asked when they were interrupted by Lady
Johanna Constantine. After all, we didn't see all of their meetings in full
length.
Bast!
--
Das computenmachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen, und poppencorken mit
spittzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das
rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pokets, relaxen und watch das
blinkenlights.
Amy Borden
>* An owl would have been a better messenger for either Destiny or
>Death; their mess. should have been reversed, IMHO. What do you want to bet
>Delirium was sent a hummingbird? I wonder what bird was sent for Dream
>when Despair died?
The harpy eagle for Death kind of threw me off too. Then I thought about
it, and it made a certain particular sense. Like the eagle with its prey,
Death ends life, but it isn't out of any malice--it's simply the
intrinsic nature of them both.
I do wonder WHY she needed to be sent a messenger in the first place;
after all, she _was_ the one who ended Morpheus' existence at his own
request.
I do agree the owl probably would have been better for Destiny; I
couldn't see any relationship between his task and the dove.
I do wonder if Destruction got a messenger, and if so, what kind. I
think he got one, but as he'd abandoned his duties and said as much to
Dream and Delirium, he chose not to show up at Litharge.
Hrmmm, maybe the harpy eagle would've been more appropiate for him. A hawk?
What Dream got when Despair died? Probably a raven.
[shrug] Just MO.
_____________________________ Amy Borden _________________________________
| Consciousness: Naps: Those <<bor...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>> |
| That annoying time annoying times / Would-be librarian, fanfic |
| between naps. between consciousness. \author, and already a maniac |
Amy Borden
seem to be able to manifest the opposite of their designations, if only
for limited periods of time. I think Destruction touched on the subject
on the second to last book of "Brief Lives" (can't remember the issue
name), when he said that he and his siblings defined their opposites more
than their actual tasks: Destruction/Creation, Delirium/Sanity,
Destiny/Free Will and so on. Negative space, and such.
However, there's been clear-cut instances where the Endless have briefly
manifested those "negative spaces" in their natures. Destruction was
clearly able to create (although not very well, in Barnabas' pithy terms
:) ) in "Brief Lives." Delirium temporarily became more coldly sane than
Destiny himself, even though the effort hurt her (wait, she mentions the
"two sides of a coin" bit too). And--in "The Wake," Death gives Eblis
life.
This instance is the most surprising to me--although I suppose it
shouldn't be. Does anybody have any take on this that they might want to
share? It's not completely unprecedented, as she removed from Orpheus
the ability to die, but it is a shock. I wonder how she went about it...
Any thoughts, takes, or flames on this? I apologize if it's already been
done, but I'm definitely curious.
===============================
And Now: Brought to You By
a little masochism. Amy Borden
<borden.alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
"Torments and tortures
used by debauchers "Studying LIS and going thoroughly
Lurid, Licentious and VILE--- mad because of it."
...make me smile."
---Tom Lehrer, "Smut"
===============================
Damon B. Crumpler
the funeral no longer exists in the current reality.
the reality storm erased it.
as such, it doesn't really matter who Was in the coffin-
no one's in it now.
--
The truth is out there-
So don't open the door.
-Tick Karma Tornado #8
Rob Ingram
: This instance is the most surprising to me--although I suppose it
: share? It's not completely unprecedented, as she removed from Orpheus
: the ability to die, but it is a shock. I wonder how she went about it...
I can't remember specific references but I believe it has been said
that we meet death twice but don't remember the first time, with the
implication being that we are too young, i.e. at birth or conception.
I have certainly pretty much always had the impression that the
endless also embody their opposites.
Rob.
--
Rob Ingram || Each sequence flickered || r.in...@cs.nott.ac.uk
Computer Science || On the screen ||
University of Nottingham || Was repetition || Virtual Reality
Nottingham UK || Though camouflaged || Research
http://www.crg.cs.nott.ac.uk/~rji/
Marc Singer
Damon B. Crumpler <db...@po.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
>
>the funeral no longer exists in the current reality.
>
>the reality storm erased it.
>
>as such, it doesn't really matter who Was in the coffin-
>no one's in it now.
What leads you to make this assumption? So far, only the tiniest
contradiction -- Gilbert -- seems to have appeared. And that could change
next issue. Otherwise, the funeral could happen exactly as depicted.
At any rate, any judgments before the next issue would be premature -- well,
except for judgments about it being Orpheus in the coffin, which are pretty
damn obviously wrong. ;)
Marc
Ted Faber
>I can't remember specific references but I believe it has been said
>that we meet death twice but don't remember the first time, with the
>implication being that we are too young, i.e. at birth or conception.
Birth. The reference is Sandman Special, the Orpheus issue.
>I have certainly pretty much always had the impression that the
>endless also embody their opposites.
That's one theory. Destruction's, as it turns out. See the penultimate
issue of Brief Lives.
Ros: Do you think death could possibly be a boat?
Guil: No, no, no...Death is...not. Death isn't. You take my meaning. Death
is the ultimate negative. Not-being. You can't not-be on a boat.
Ros: I've frequently not been on boats.
Guil: No, no, no--what you've been is not on boats.
--- Tom Stoppard
--
Ted Faber Figment at Large fa...@cinenet.net
"Imagine the most abhorrent person. Let's call him Ted." -- Peter Himmelman
Damon B. Crumpler
no, i don' think that gilbert is the tiniest contradiction--
i think, at least at this point, that he is definitively
Not going to be at the funeral.
it May indeed change next issue.
but right now, with gilbert permanently nonexisting, this
invalidates the funeral as shown.
so, if there is a funeral (do you think?), then it will be a different funeral
from before.
i'm also, in retrospect, having trouble with the concept of dream's
death causing the reality storm.
now, i don't know if that's actually been suggested by people, or
if i'm just misconstruing, but the reality storm
seems unrelated to dreams' actual death.
it's somehow related to [ah, i Got it now!]
to the kindly one's attack on the dreaming--
it seems that by destroying the dreaming, they were creating an
effect on reality also.
i point this out mainly by the timeline of the reality strom in the kindly
ones, and by gaiman's explanation that destiny was responsible for it at the time.
Katie Schwarz
>Amy Borden (bor...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) wrote:
[Death gave life to Eblis]
>: This instance is the most surprising to me--although I suppose it
>: shouldn't be. Does anybody have any take on this that they might want to
>: share? It's not completely unprecedented, as she removed from Orpheus
>: the ability to die, but it is a shock. I wonder how she went about it...
>
>I can't remember specific references but I believe it has been said
>that we meet death twice but don't remember the first time, with the
>implication being that we are too young, i.e. at birth or conception.
>I have certainly pretty much always had the impression that the
>endless also embody their opposites.
"Our sister defines life, just as Despair defines hope, and Destiny
defines freedom..." "And what do *I* define, by this theory of yours."
"Reality, perhaps?" -- (approximate quote from) Destruction and Dream,
Sandman #48
The information about Death meeting people when they are born also came
from Destruction, in the Orpheus story. I like the speculation that
Death seemed to be meeting Daniel for the first time (in #68), as if
she hadn't had the usual meeting with him because he was gestating in
the dream dimension. (Although both his conception -- in Infinity Inc
-- and his birth -- in Sandman #22 -- were in the normal reality.)
I always wondered why we see an ankh when Dream takes Orpheus's life.
Was he using his sister's powers? How?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie Schwarz ka...@physics.berkeley.edu
"There's no need to look for a Chimera, or a cat with three legs."
-- Jorge Luis Borges, "Death and the Compass"