Superman Wedding -- why a Christian ceremony?
Jim Cowling
OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
did it seem rushed.
My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
Kansas by parents who probably are.
But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
atheist. :)
Any thoughts?
-------
Jim Cowling, moderator, rec.arts.comics.info
Editor, IN CHARACTER, An Electronic Journal about Games
http://www.islandnet.com/~scowling/inc.htm
-------
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <53ksj6$n...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>,
Jim Cowling <scow...@islandnet.com> wrote:
>OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
>did it seem rushed.
Last week's issue seemed far more rushed when Lois decided
to come back and marry Clark after all.
>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>Kansas by parents who probably are.
>
>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>atheist. :)
>
>Any thoughts?
It doesn't bother me that it was a Christian wedding. Just as
you did, I figured Ma and Pa Kent were probably Christians, given
their background and past history. I would think this might be enough
for Clark to want a church wedding even if he himself seldom goes. As
for Lois, I don't know whether she is an athiest or not, but I haven't
seen signs she would reject the idea of being married in a church even
if she doesn't much care. I'd suspect Clark, the Kansas farmboy,
might push harder for a church wedding than Lois, the modern city
girl.
What I wonder is what would happen if it had been SuperBOY and
Tana Moon getting married whether it would have still been a Christian
wedding. That would feel out of place to me. Superboy wasn't raised
by presumably Christian foster parents and I haven't seen any hints he
believes in any religion.
Joseph Arendt
Brian H. Bailie
In article <53ksj6$n...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>, scow...@islandnet.com (Jim
Cowling) wrote:
> My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
> obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
> Kansas by parents who probably are.
>
> But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
> atheist. :)
>
> Any thoughts?
One.
I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a Christian?
Brian
Mike Chary
Brian H. Bailie <b.h.b...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a Christian?
>
One argument along those lines is:
Christ was incarnated as a human and died for humans. The fall *was*, after
all, a fall of humans from grace. Why should it be assumed that other
species fell too? That being the case, Christianity might not hold any
resonance for an alien like Superman. Christ didn't save him from anything.
The contary reasoning is:
Christ was an incarnation of *GOD*. Worshipping him is worshipping the
King of the Universe (to abduct a title from Judaism :)) THe same God
here as on Krypton. Rao and Elohim are the same God. Therefore to worship
one is worshipping exactly the same guy.
Needless to say this is an open question. :)
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "The best argument against
democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
David Markowitz
Jim Cowling (scow...@islandnet.com) wrote:
: My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
Interesting. I thought the wedding was exceptionally non-denominational
as weddings go. There wasn't a creche anywhere, no references to Christ,
and significant deviations from any wedding format I've seen in person
(although it *did* remind me of TV weddings). Other than them putting
Jerry Siegel in some sort of ministerial robe, I didn't see anything that
could be called exclusively Christian. The hall *did* look like a church,
but Conservative and Reform Jewish buildings frequently appropriate
European-church style architecture.
Not fond of the idea of putting a Jewish man in a collar for the sake of
cheesy commercial sentimentality,
Dave
Mike Chary
Jim Cowling <scow...@islandnet.com> wrote:
>OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
>did it seem rushed.
Agreed.
>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>Kansas by parents who probably are.
>
>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>atheist. :)
>
>Any thoughts?
Lois and Clark are both too intelligent to be atheists. (And that *was* a
shot at Jim, Carl, *and* elmo. YHBT.)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Jim Cowling (scow...@islandnet.com) wrote:
: OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
: did it seem rushed.
: My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
: obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
: Kansas by parents who probably are.
: But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
: atheist. :)
: Any thoughts?
Did you see it as Christian? I didn't notice any mentions of Christ (but
I'm at work now and the book is at home, so I could be misremembering).
I thought it was a fairly non-denominational religious wedding. Unlike
my wedding (and I *did* marry an atheist), "the G word" (as we call it)
was present, but I didn't get the feeling it was a specific religion.
I always figured the Kents were Presbyterian, although I'm not that good
at identifying various branches of Christianity. I don't think Lois is an
atheist (I don't know that *anyone* in the DCU is, given the proliferation
of gods and godlike creatures about... I mean, Spectre's the Wrath of
SOMETHING, right? <g>), but she strikes me as someone for whom religion
has been a purely private matter and not all that relevant to her
day-to-day interactions, certainly not to her career.
- Elayne (got a kick out of the Jewish minister, though <g>)
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for a copy of the final issue of ()~~
the official Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal; ##
it's free! "Yes, that's right-- fair to all, and no fare to ##
anybody!... Join the expectant crowd, gathering now!" _##_
Brian H. Bailie
In article <53ll98$9...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) wrote:
> Brian H. Bailie <b.h.b...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a
Christian?
> >
>
> One argument along those lines is:
>
> Christ was incarnated as a human and died for humans. The fall *was*, after
> all, a fall of humans from grace. Why should it be assumed that other
> species fell too? That being the case, Christianity might not hold any
> resonance for an alien like Superman. Christ didn't save him from anything.
>
> The contary reasoning is:
>
> Christ was an incarnation of *GOD*. Worshipping him is worshipping the
> King of the Universe (to abduct a title from Judaism :)) THe same God
> here as on Krypton. Rao and Elohim are the same God. Therefore to worship
> one is worshipping exactly the same guy.
>
> Needless to say this is an open question. :)
Which is kind of my point. And let's open it more by saying that the
concept of missionaries isn't foreign to the DC Universe (including having
the Cleric show up on Krypton).
(You want Darkseid to know fear? Have a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses show
up on Apocalyse's doorstep some day.)
And this may sound naive on my part, or at least stretching the point, but
as I remember, it goes that Christ died for us all. The word "human"
wasn't expressly used, though I imagine there are any number of
translations out and about. We could start down any number of paths here
about just how inclusive "all" is.
Not speaking from any particular vantage point,
Brian
WILLIAM H. SUDDERTH
Jim Cowling (scow...@islandnet.com) wrote:
: obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
: Kansas by parents who probably are.
In an (I believe) Roger Stern or Jerry Ordway-written issue several years
ago, Clark made a reference to his parents having taught him "religion" as
a child. Playing the odds would suggest that he was brought up as a
Christian, though the way he's been written postboot indicates more
clearly that he respects all religions.
In Dan Jurgens' and Dusty Abell's ARMAGEDDON 2001 annual, future-Clark
married Lana Lang in a Christian sanctuary.
Will, Christian himself but struck by the WASPiness of it all
--
William Sudderth
http://www.uncg.edu/~whsudder
Proudly married Shannon W. Sudderth April 20, 1996
Matthew Daly
scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) writes:
>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>Kansas by parents who probably are.
Clark's been to the Christianesque afterlife -- what's not to believe
that he's a Christian? We don't see him going to church every
Sunday, but we also never see him going to the bathroom -- does
that mean that he holds it in? [eg]
>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>atheist. :)
Clark was clearly raised with Christian values that he continues
to hold. Whether he's a believer or not, people are married in
churches with less than that. And if Lois was married by the same
priest who confirmed her, then she's got a history in the church
as well.
So, it seems to me that the Lanes are Catholic and the Kents are
also religious ... Methodists, perhaps?
-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
da...@ppd.kodak.com even read everything I've bought.
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
Tim Serpas
Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>Lois and Clark are both too intelligent to be atheists. (And that *was* a
>shot at Jim, Carl, *and* elmo. YHBT.)
Grrrr...
Tim Serpas, BS Physics
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <b.h.bailie-1110961005320001@news>,
Brian H. Bailie <b.h.b...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>In article <53ksj6$n...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>, scow...@islandnet.com (Jim
>Cowling) wrote:
>
>> My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>> obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>> Kansas by parents who probably are.
>>
>> But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>> atheist. :)
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>One.
>
>I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a Christian?
>
>Brian
Perhaps it is like this. The planet Krypton might be ten
thousand light years from Earth. It blew up about twelve thousand
years ago. The light from the explosion arrived at Earth about two
thousand years ago. Baby Kal-El in his rocket ship could only
approach the speed of light not reach it, since both he and the ship
have a finite mass. Because of this, it took him about twelve
thousand years to make the trip which light made in ten thousand.
Time dilation effects kept baby Kal-El from noticably aging during
those years. Therefore, the explosion of the planet Krypton may have
guided the shepards and Three Wise Men to Jesus. Kal-El's parents and
entire race were murdered by a cruel God just to guide some shepards
and kings on distant planet Earth! Kal-El might not be so keen on God
and Jesus after that!
JUST KIDDING!!! I'm also shamelessly ripping off the idea
from an Arthur C. Clarke short story. :-)
Besides, I ignored the faster-than-light warp drive in baby
Kal-El's ship, who post-Bryne was only a fetus anyway, and I have no
idea how far Krypton has been stated as being from Earth. Besides, on
an astronomical scale, the explosion of a planet is really wimpy and
unnoticable. A nova or supernova would be much more likely to be
noticed. I thought it was the planet Krypton that exploded, not
Krypton's sun.
Back to the question at hand. Imagine us human Earthlings
traveled to Alpha Centauri. Lo and behold, green bug-eyed monsters
live on a planet orbiting it. Fortunately, the monsters are
intelligent and friendly. The Earthlings land.
The Alpha Centaurians take them to one of their churches. On
a spire above the church is a sculpture of a green bug-eyed monster in
some cruel torture device. In the church itself is another similar
sculpture. The Alpha Centaurians announce that this is a depiction of
the death of the one and only true son of the God of the universe.
His son was born on this planet as a native where he lived out his
life in mortal form as a green bug-eyed monster. The society couldn't
tolerate his message, so he was killed. He then came back to life,
visited briefly with his followers, and then flew off to the stars.
Do you think many human Earthlings will readily join the
religion of the one and true son of the God of the universe being a
green bug-eyed monster? Why should a Kryptonian feel any different
about a religion that considers the one, true, and only son of God to
be a human being rather than a Kryptonian?
My answer? I think Clark Kent might very well be Christian
due to his upbringing by Ma and Pa Kent. You'll note that Clark calls
himself Superman rather than Superkryptonian. Thus, he might identify
with the son of God coming to Earth as a human being more than another
Kryptonian who didn't think of himself as a human being.
Joseph Arendt
sc...@sprynet.com
Lois, no doubt, was raised as a Christian. Clark, being from Kansas, probably was to.
Thus, a Christian ceremony. I would have no doubt that Clark would probably have
had, at least at some time, some major religious questions since he's not human.
However, that probably wouldn't be much fun to read in a comic book.
tek...@vnet.ibm.com
In <53lvtd$5...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joseph T Arendt) writes:
>**
>
>In article <b.h.bailie-1110961005320001@news>,
>Brian H. Bailie <b.h.b...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>In article <53ksj6$n...@sanjuan.islandnet.com>, scow...@islandnet.com (Jim
>>Cowling) wrote:
>>
>>> My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>>> obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>>> Kansas by parents who probably are.
>>>
>>> But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>>> atheist. :)
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>One.
>>
>>I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a Christian?
>>
>>Brian
>
>
>religion of the one and true son of the God of the universe being a
>green bug-eyed monster? Why should a Kryptonian feel any different
>about a religion that considers the one, true, and only son of God to
>be a human being rather than a Kryptonian?
>
> My answer? I think Clark Kent might very well be Christian
>due to his upbringing by Ma and Pa Kent. You'll note that Clark calls
>himself Superman rather than Superkryptonian. Thus, he might identify
>with the son of God coming to Earth as a human being more than another
>Kryptonian who didn't think of himself as a human being.
>
>
One of the key points of the post-Crisis Superman is that he considers
himself CLARK KENT, with a secret identity of Superman, not the other way
around. He was raised as Clark, lived his formative years as Clark, and
only later developed the powers he exhibits today. He considers himself
more an American/earthling than a Kryptonian.
Besides, trying to find a priest from the Raoian religion might have
taken a while <g>.
Vic Vitek
---> These do not necessarily reflect the views of IBM, my family, my
pets, or any sane person.
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <mayaDz4...@netcom.com>, Maya Keshavan <ma...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu,bf...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>: >
>: >Lois and Clark are both too intelligent to be atheists. (And that *was* a
>: >shot at Jim, Carl, *and* elmo. YHBT.)
...
>:) I have always wondered, if as a race (human race) we
>are moving past the need for religion. (A flame bait notion,
>if ever I saw one...please no offence to any religion meant.)
>
>IMHO,Just because L&C were married in a church doesn't mean they
>aren't athiests (Less threatening word:agnostics). Rituals
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are sometimes needed to mark important events in your life.
>They add a formality and significance to an event.
...
>Maya Keshavan
>ma...@netcom.com
Being agnostics may seem less threatening to believing
Christians than atheists, but I always thought the two words had a
different meaning. Atheists say there is no God; agnositcs say
the existance of a God is unknown and unknowable.
I'd think it would be easier to believe in God or gods in
the DC universe where miracles are a common occurance and demons
sometimes show their faces. Or, as in Final Night, make offers on
TV.
Imagine what it would do to our world if a bona fide demon
in a real version of Hell appeared on TV to make an offer to the
world. Whether the offer is refused, accepted, or ignored, the demon
just proved there ARE demons and there is a Hell.
Here is food for thought. Superman has had a really long
near-death experience back when he was called "dead" in our media.
I wonder if that experience affected his religious outlook.
Joseph Arendt
Robert Faires
In article <b.h.bailie-1110961157340001@news>, the sinister Brian H.
Bailie wrote:
> (You want Darkseid to know fear? Have a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses show
> up on Apocalyse's doorstep some day.)
Now *that's* a book I'd buy!
In Prestige Format even!
Robert Faires
Austin, Texas
julio
> :) I have always wondered, if as a race (human race) we
> are moving past the need for religion. (A flame bait notion,
> if ever I saw one...please no offence to any religion meant.)
OK, I'll bite. Personally, I think that, as a race, we are not "moving
past" anything. Most of us live longer than our ancestors from the
Paleolithic, but that's about it, IMHO.
Julio
Douglas Ethington
scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) wrote:
>OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
>did it seem rushed.
>
>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>Kansas by parents who probably are.
>
>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>atheist. :)
>
>Any thoughts?
I always thought that Clark was most likely a Christian -
non-denominational, of course, since to specify a denomination would
provoke outrage from fans outside the specified one.
Anyway, this thread got me thinking about the other DC heroes and what
their religious beliefs might be, so here are some of my thoughts (most
of this MHO):
Batman is an atheist. He says as much in an UU tie-in. Wonder Woman
worships the Greek gods. Captain Marvel is probably a Christian, and
the Spectre _definitely_ is one. I'd mention the Flashes and the Speed
Force, but that thread has been done to death on this newsgroup. Most
of the supervillains probably believe themselves to be the equals of
gods, and Superboy, Bart Allen, & Kyle Rayner probably haven't given
much serious thought to religious matters. I'm not sure what Hal
Jordan, Guy Gardner, or a lot of other heroes believe, so I'd be
interested in hearing your thoughts.
Len Leshin
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput wrote:
>
> Jim Cowling (scow...@islandnet.com) wrote:
>
> : My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
> : obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
> : Kansas by parents who probably are.
>
> : But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
> : atheist. :)
>
> I'm at work now and the book is at home, so I could be misremembering).
>
> I thought it was a fairly non-denominational religious wedding. Unlike
> my wedding (and I *did* marry an atheist), "the G word" (as we call it)
> was present, but I didn't get the feeling it was a specific religion.
>
> I always figured the Kents were Presbyterian, although I'm not that good
> at identifying various branches of Christianity. I don't think Lois is an
> atheist (I don't know that *anyone* in the DCU is, given the proliferation
> of gods and godlike creatures about... I mean, Spectre's the Wrath of
> SOMETHING, right? <g>), but she strikes me as someone for whom religion
> has been a purely private matter and not all that relevant to her
> day-to-day interactions, certainly not to her career.
>
> - Elayne (got a kick out of the Jewish minister, though <g>)
Actually, the gatefold at the end shows a statue that certainly
suggested Christ to me. I wondered about that, seeing as Superman was
the creation of two nice Jewish boys. <g>
And of course, in Superman II, as Superman flies off after saving the
child at Niagra Falls, a woman comments: "Of _course_, he's Jewish."
<bg>
So, I'm pretending they're Unitarians. Works for me.
--
Len L.
lle...@davlin.net
Gregory Alan Dyer
Just couldn't resist. Had to chime in after Joseph's allusion to the
Arthur C. Clarke short story. If I remember the title correctly, it's
called "The Star," and it's a wonderfully intriguing read. Much
recommended. :)
Greg Dyer (who apologizes for this trivial footnote to the discussion)
On 11 Oct 1996, Joseph T Arendt wrote:
>
> Perhaps it is like this. The planet Krypton might be ten
> thousand light years from Earth. It blew up about twelve thousand
> years ago. The light from the explosion arrived at Earth about two
> thousand years ago. Baby Kal-El in his rocket ship could only
> approach the speed of light not reach it, since both he and the ship
> have a finite mass. Because of this, it took him about twelve
> thousand years to make the trip which light made in ten thousand.
> Time dilation effects kept baby Kal-El from noticably aging during
> those years. Therefore, the explosion of the planet Krypton may have
> guided the shepards and Three Wise Men to Jesus. Kal-El's parents and
> entire race were murdered by a cruel God just to guide some shepards
> and kings on distant planet Earth! Kal-El might not be so keen on God
> and Jesus after that!
>
> JUST KIDDING!!! I'm also shamelessly ripping off the idea
> from an Arthur C. Clarke short story. :-)
>
> Joseph Arendt
>
Hernan Espinoza
scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) writes:
>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>Kansas by parents who probably are.
Obvious....?
>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>atheist. :)
Kibologist. -Hernan, who was not aware that one had
to be human to be Christian.
Steve De Young
> scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) writes:
>
> >My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
> >obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
> >Kansas by parents who probably are.
>
> >But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
> >atheist. :)
>
They are in the United States. Most people I know who have gotten
married, Christian or no, have had traditional church weddings. What did
you want, a pagan nature ceremony? I think traditional was definitely the
way to go.
--
Steve De Young
sj...@mail.idt.net
Visit the Mr. Miracle Homepage! http://shell.idt.net/~sjdy
bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
I just read that particular issue. It's debatable whether the wedding was
actually Christian. I would say non-denominational, at least within the
Judeo-Christian-Islamic context - but the imagery was that of a Christian
church. (Than again, so is the imagery of most quicky wedding chapels.)
Is Superman/Clark/Kal-El a Christian? I don't know. But here's a very
controversial way of looking at it...
Jesus [the mythical one] risen from the dead; so did Superman.
This is not to say Superman actually believes himself to be Christ. But
he could well identify with him on those grounds!
===================== ====================================
BLAINE GORDON MANYLUK email: bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
EDMONTON, AB
Mike Chary
>> all, a fall of humans from grace. Why should it be assumed that other
>> species fell too? That being the case, Christianity might not hold any
>> resonance for an alien like Superman. Christ didn't save him from anything.
>>
>concept of missionaries isn't foreign to the DC Universe (including having
>the Cleric show up on Krypton).
Hey, don't look at me. You asked why anyone would think you had to be
human to be Christian, this is one reason I've heard :)
>And this may sound naive on my part, or at least stretching the point, but
>as I remember, it goes that Christ died for us all. The word "human"
>wasn't expressly used, though I imagine there are any number of
>translations out and about. We could start down any number of paths here
>about just how inclusive "all" is.
Nope. He died for the sin of anthropos. That means "human being." (It's in
Paul's letter to the Romans and 2 Peter, Nestle-Aland Greek and Latin New
Testament :) (I have returned it to nominative cae. Oh, and before anyone
starts in, Koine Greek has separate words for "man," "woman," and "human
being." The word in the NT is "human being".)
Andrew Ryan Chang
[aside not related to main topic of thread.]
Joseph T Arendt <jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Kal-El's ship, who post-Bryne was only a fetus anyway, and I have no
>idea how far Krypton has been stated as being from Earth. Besides, on
Around Action #600 or so, I thought it was established as ~33
light-years from Earth.
Someone, _please_ explain to me why at that distance, the radiation of the
Kryptonite produced from the explosion would matter to Kryptonians living
on Earth, and why going to Krypton and then coming back made everything OK
fro Supes.
--
Mail to me from pwrnet.com and moneyworld.com is autodeleted before I ever
see it. I have not ever received anything but junk mail from them, and now
I just delete it. If you are at a rogue site, I urge you to consider that
the people you pay lie and act dishonestly- how will they treat you?
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Steve De Young (sj...@mail.idt.net) wrote:
: > scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) writes:
: >
: > >My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
: > >obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
: > >Kansas by parents who probably are.
: >
: > >But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
: > >atheist. :)
: >
: They are in the United States. Most people I know who have gotten
: married, Christian or no, have had traditional church weddings.
And a great many people I know have been married in a non-religious
setting (like a room in a reception hall, as we did when we were married
by a justice of the peace) rather than a church.
- Elayne
PatDOneill
Let me note that, generally, the wedding takes place in the BRIDE's home
church, if different from the groom's.
Therefore, the question is what religion is Lois Lane? Does anyone
doubt--with what we've seen of her parents--that Lois was raised in one of
the mainstream Protestant denominations? Given her mother's social
outlook, I'd argue for Episcopalian or Methodist.
Oh--and lots of couples with no particular religious inclinations of their
own will still have a religious ceremony in order to keep the older
generation happy.
Best, Pat
Hernan Espinoza
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
>Brian H. Bailie <b.h.b...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a Christian?
:One argument along those lines is:
:Christ was incarnated as a human and died for humans. The fall *was*, after
:all, a fall of humans from grace. Why should it be assumed that other
:species fell too? That being the case, Christianity might not hold any
:resonance for an alien like Superman. Christ didn't save him from anything.
:The contary reasoning is:
:Christ was an incarnation of *GOD*. Worshipping him is worshipping the
:King of the Universe (to abduct a title from Judaism :)) THe same God
:here as on Krypton. Rao and Elohim are the same God. Therefore to worship
:one is worshipping exactly the same guy.
The problem is, Clark doesn't think of himself as an alien.
He thinks like a human, because he was raised as a human with NO knowledge
that he was alien (he thought the powers were because he was a mutant
_human_) until he was in his 20's. Both of your analyses rest on the
fact that Clark's alien-ness would play a big role in his religious
beliefs. It would not, because he is alien in name only, he is human
in all the ways that would count for where his faith led him.
There is a line...way back in the earliest post-Byrne Superman
books...Adventures, I think...where Superman says that his Kryptonian
heritage is great, but meaningless, since it was Earth that made him
a man. Damn. I feel old. -Hernan
IHCOYC XPICTOC
Robert Faires (ons...@auschron.com) quoth:
: In article <b.h.bailie-1110961157340001@news>, the sinister Brian H.
: Bailie wrote:
: > (You want Darkseid to know fear? Have a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses show
: > up on Apocalyse's doorstep some day.)
: Now *that's* a book I'd buy!
'Specially since Darkseid is -already- a Scientologist. . .
--
__________________________________________________________________________
IHCOYC XPICTOC http://members.iglou.com/gustavus gust...@iglou.com
Ecce domina quae fidet omnia micantia aurea esse, et scalam in caelos emit
**** This message has been placed here by the Tijuana Bible Society ****
Mike Chary
Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>:Christ was incarnated as a human and died for humans. The fall *was*, after
>:all, a fall of humans from grace. Why should it be assumed that other
>:species fell too? That being the case, Christianity might not hold any
>:resonance for an alien like Superman. Christ didn't save him from anything.
>
>He thinks like a human, because he was raised as a human with NO knowledge
>that he was alien (he thought the powers were because he was a mutant
>_human_) until he was in his 20's. Both of your analyses rest on the
>fact that Clark's alien-ness would play a big role in his religious
>beliefs. It would not, because he is alien in name only, he is human
>in all the ways that would count for where his faith led him.
The question was asked what difference being an alien would make. Do you
wish me to pretend it has never been addressed?
Hernan Espinoza
ma...@netcom.com (Maya Keshavan) writes:
>IMHO,Just because L&C were married in a church doesn't mean they
>aren't athiests (Less threatening word:agnostics). Rituals
Actually, it's just different. Atheist (a - "no" , theos - "god")
believe there is NO God (or the devine period). Agnostics (a- "no",
gnostos - "knowledge") believe that there is no way to know one way or
the other. Just a pet peeve. Thanks for the posts. 8-)
-Hernan
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
Jim Cowling (scow...@islandnet.com) wrote:
: OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
: did it seem rushed.
: My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
: obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
: Kansas by parents who probably are.
: But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
: atheist. :)
: Any thoughts?
Superman knows everything we do. Well, not quite, but not far from it.
He knows that God exists in the DC Universe. The most obvious example to
think God exists in the DC Universe is that it is explicitely stated in the
Spectre. For Superman not to think God exists would be like me not
believing in Wayne Gretzky.
As for having a Christian ceremony, that doesn't seem odd to me. Almost
all Chinese people I know and know of don't believe in God but they had
church weddings - including my parents, aunts and uncles. I am guessing
that a church wedding is kinda default unless the couple is very strongly
aethiest.
--
vl
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
Andrew Ryan Chang (and...@ugcs.caltech.edu) wrote:
: [aside not related to main topic of thread.]
: Joseph T Arendt <jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
: >Kal-El's ship, who post-Bryne was only a fetus anyway, and I have no
: >idea how far Krypton has been stated as being from Earth. Besides, on
: Around Action #600 or so, I thought it was established as ~33
: light-years from Earth.
I thought it was 50 years.
: Someone, _please_ explain to me why at that distance, the radiation of the
: Kryptonite produced from the explosion would matter to Kryptonians living
: on Earth, and why going to Krypton and then coming back made everything OK
: fro Supes.
Cos it was the 50th anniversary of his debut.
--
vl
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
Joseph T Arendt (jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: Back to the question at hand. Imagine us human Earthlings
: traveled to Alpha Centauri. Lo and behold, green bug-eyed monsters
: live on a planet orbiting it. Fortunately, the monsters are
: intelligent and friendly. The Earthlings land.
: The Alpha Centaurians take them to one of their churches. On
: a spire above the church is a sculpture of a green bug-eyed monster in
: some cruel torture device. In the church itself is another similar
: sculpture. The Alpha Centaurians announce that this is a depiction of
: the death of the one and only true son of the God of the universe.
: His son was born on this planet as a native where he lived out his
: life in mortal form as a green bug-eyed monster. The society couldn't
: tolerate his message, so he was killed. He then came back to life,
: visited briefly with his followers, and then flew off to the stars.
: Do you think many human Earthlings will readily join the
: religion of the one and true son of the God of the universe being a
: green bug-eyed monster? Why should a Kryptonian feel any different
: about a religion that considers the one, true, and only son of God to
: be a human being rather than a Kryptonian?
Dunno, but that doesn't apply to Kent cos he didn't know he was an alien
until he was pretty old, and he knows for certain that the God of the
Jews/Christians/Muslims exists (is there really any difference between the
three faiths other than how they choose to honour their God?), since God
exists in the DC universe continuity (Spectre provides inarguable
precedence - other stories may be debateable). Since Kent is aware of
Spectre, he'd be a moron not to believe in God.
--
vl
Len Leshin
Andrew Ryan Chang wrote:
> Someone, _please_ explain to me why at that distance, the radiation of the
> Kryptonite produced from the explosion would matter to Kryptonians living
> on Earth, and why going to Krypton and then coming back made everything OK
> fro Supes.
The story was that Supes arrived from Earth via hyperspace so he got to
earth 25 (?) years before the radiation did. By going to where Krypton
used to be, he avoided the radiation since it had already dissipated
from the "epicenter." Then, he waited until the wave of Kryptonite
radiation had passed the solar system and went back to Earth.
--
Len L.
lle...@davlin.net
Corsair
espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) wrote:
>scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) writes:
>>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>>Kansas by parents who probably are.
> Obvious....?
>>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>>atheist. :)
> Kibologist. -Hernan, who was not aware that one had
>to be human to be Christian.
Ditto..
Let check our definitions...
We of earth are considered Terrans or Earthlings.
Kal-El is considered Kyrptonian.
Jon Jonns is considered Martian.
Maxima...I can't remember her planet of origin.
ect, ect, ect,.....
So I guess the question is....What is Human?.....Humanoid?
bla...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Corsair (Crsa...@Concentric.net) wrote:
: Let check our definitions...
: We of earth are considered Terrans or Earthlings.
That presumably includes Atlanteans, Amazons, and of course Human mutants.
(Nearly all the Legionnaires fit into the last category.)
: Kal-El is considered Kyrptonian.
: Jon Jonns is considered Martian.
: Maxima...I can't remember her planet of origin.
Almerac?
julio
> julio (jgea...@comp.uark.edu) wrote:
> : In article <mayaDz4...@netcom.com>, ma...@netcom.com (Maya
> Sigh. I should have said "losing the need for religion". As
> I said, "I wonder", not stating it as a fact. I am relying on
> purely subjective encounters with my family and friends. As
> the old saying goes "birds of a feather flock together". So
> I can easily believe I am out of step with mainstream society. ;)
>
> Or, maybe I watched that Star Trek Apollo episode one too many
> times.
I think I knew what you meant. What *I* meant was that we are still the
same race (same species) that developed religion in the first place, so
it's reasonable to suspect that the need must still be there. Whether the
current versions of centuries-old religions still fulfill that need, or
have fallen out of touch with it, is another story, but at least one
(Islam) keeps getting large numbers of converts, all over the world, all
the time.
My point was, as a race, we haven't really changed that much (if at all).
As a society, we are, of course, affected by fads and fashions of
thought. But I'm not even sure if the prevalent fashion in the U.S. today
is specifically anti-religious, or just down on traditional (mainstream)
Christianity. Certainly angels seem to have been all the rage just a year
or two ago...
Julio
Corsair
Douglas Ethington <a08...@academic.csubak.edu> wrote:
>Anyway, this thread got me thinking about the other DC heroes and what
>their religious beliefs might be, so here are some of my thoughts (most
>of this MHO):
>Batman is an atheist. He says as much in an UU tie-in. Wonder Woman
>worships the Greek gods. Captain Marvel is probably a Christian, and
>the Spectre _definitely_ is one. I'd mention the Flashes and the Speed
>Force, but that thread has been done to death on this newsgroup. Most
>of the supervillains probably believe themselves to be the equals of
>gods, and Superboy, Bart Allen, & Kyle Rayner probably haven't given
>much serious thought to religious matters. I'm not sure what Hal
>Jordan, Guy Gardner, or a lot of other heroes believe, so I'd be
>interested in hearing your thoughts.
Batman...a athiest?
Possible I guest but for the Angle displayed above his parents grave.
Also he seems to have established some kind of connection with DeadMan
as seen in the special Green Lantarn/Hal Jordan Memorial comic. If he
accepts that D-Man is a "ghost" and therfore a lost soul, then there
must be more beyond this life. I see Batman more as being angry at God
than not believing in him.
Don Brinker's Evil Twin
espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) wrote:
> There is a line...way back in the earliest post-Byrne Superman
>books...Adventures, I think...where Superman says that his Kryptonian
>heritage is great, but meaningless, since it was Earth that made him
>a man. Damn. I feel old. -Hernan
Actually, it was in Man of Steel (the mini, that is) #6
- Don
Jeffery D. Sykes
Joseph T Arendt (jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: Do you think many human Earthlings will readily join the
: religion of the one and true son of the God of the universe being a
: green bug-eyed monster? Why should a Kryptonian feel any different
: about a religion that considers the one, true, and only son of God to
: be a human being rather than a Kryptonian?
Faulty premise. Christianity does *not* consider the one, true, and only
son of God to be a human. Rather, Christianity considers that Jesus was
God made flesh -- that Jesus took human *form* for the purpose of providing
a means of salvation.
I don't have any idea what the true form of God is -- that's beyond Man's
capacity for understanding. I would also guess that the nature of God would
be beyond a Kryptonian's understanding as well...
Jeff
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
Corsair (Crsa...@Concentric.net) wrote:
: Batman...a athiest?
: Possible I guest but for the Angle displayed above his parents grave.
: Also he seems to have established some kind of connection with DeadMan
: as seen in the special Green Lantarn/Hal Jordan Memorial comic. If he
: accepts that D-Man is a "ghost" and therfore a lost soul, then there
: must be more beyond this life. I see Batman more as being angry at God
: than not believing in him.
Boston Brand got his gift/curse from an indeterminate source. From the
story in Secret Origins #15, it seemed more like a Hindu God, (although
Spectre took a Hindu form in one of his life times, so it could be the
same God).
Batman appeared in a great number of Deadman stories. I think Wayne just
knows that his power is from "The Voice".
After-life in the DC universe doesn't necessarily translate into Gods
exist, although, I'd rather not argue it, cos I think it's a silly topic :)
Vincent
Robert D. Kaiser
da...@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) says:
scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) writes:
>>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding? I mean, it *seems*
>>obvious to me that Clark's not a Christian. Sure, he was raised in
>>Kansas by parents who probably are.
>Clark was clearly raised with Christian values that he continues
>to hold. Whether he's a believer or not, people are married in
>churches with less than that.
Uh, that's kind of a narrow vision. I don't see Clark Kent as
being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
way of thinking is the only way to be saved. If you are looking for
that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
damnation for not being the correct religion. Such open mindedness
is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
views on theology. Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
ethics that Superman displays today.
By the way, Superman's real name is Kal-El, which is happens to
be Hebrew for "The Voice of God". Its not known whether this name was
given on purpose, or just sounded cool, but its neat to know.
Shalom,
Robert Kaiser
Robert D. Kaiser
IHCOYC XPICTOC
Robert D. Kaiser (kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu) quoth:
: As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
: different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
: views on theology. Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
: Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
: Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
: ethics that Superman displays today.
There's one obvious technical problem with Superman being Jewish --- at
least the pre-Crisis Superman, who apparently enjoyed his invulnerability
from day one.
John P. Selegue
gust...@iglou.com (IHCOYC XPICTOC) writes:
>least the pre-Crisis Superman, who apparently enjoyed his invulnerability
>from day one.
JPS
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Robert D. Kaiser (kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu) wrote:
: I don't see Clark Kent as
: being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
: way of thinking is the only way to be saved.
This is a very narrow view of Christianity, Robert. I know plenty of
Christians who don't proselytize and insist on one-true-way'ism.
: Clark/Superman respects people of all
: faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
: damnation for not being the correct religion. Such open mindedness
: is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
: is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
Oh please, Robert. Judaism teaches, among other things, that there are
different levels of heaven for good, practicing Jews and good, practicing
non-Jews. That goyim can never attain the highest level unless they
choose to become Jewish, even if they've never *heard* of Judaism. At
least, that was one rabbi's answer when I point-blank asked him this
question back in yeshiva, which is one reason I left yeshiva. There are
plenty of places in Judaism which show very little respect for folks of
other faiths, and I'm very surprised you don't acknowledge that.
Not to invite a flamewar, but I think whatever you have against
Protestantism and Catholicism, and in favor of Judaism, is obscuring your
ability to see these types of problems with (as well as positive aspects
of) almost every major organized religion.
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Robert, I responded to your anti-Christianity and pro-Judaism stuff in the
original thread, but I just wanted to remind everyone that, in a very
famous Golden Age issue, Hitler himself said, "This Superman, he must be a
Jew!" So there you are.
(And I hope that wraps up another thread. <g>)
Tim Tjarks
Robert D. Kaiser wrote:
>
> da...@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) says:
> >Clark was clearly raised with Christian values that he continues
> >to hold. Whether he's a believer or not, people are married in
> >churches with less than that.
>
> being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
> ... is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
I sorry, but your view of Christianity is also too narrow. While that
may be true of some Christian thought, it is not true for large numbers
of Christians. As a single data point, I was brought up in a small
Midwestern town, in a mainstream Protestant denomination (Methodist),
and I'm a bit older than Superman's current likely age (he - early 30s,
me - late 30s), and I share the (allegedly non-Christian)
open-mindedness you attribute to Clark. I continue to call myself
Christian and worship actively. I wasn't taught that Christianity is
"the One True Way (tm)". Further, I don't believe myself to be
atypical. It's pretty easy for me to believe that Clark, with a
virtually identical upbringing (at least in surroundings), would be
married in a Christian church and be as open-minded as you and I see him
to be.
You've fallen into the trap of believing Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed to
be representative of all Christians. You've looked at certain tenets
that are not necessarily accepted by all denominations and determined
that all Christians are indoctrinated with that belief.
> As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
> different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
> views on theology.
"Today's Christianity" meaning "the Christianity of the past ~500
years". You've got to take this back >at least< as far as Martin
Luther.
> By the way, Superman's real name is Kal-El, which is happens to
> be Hebrew for "The Voice of God". Its not known whether this name was
> given on purpose, or just sounded cool, but its neat to know.
I knew "El" generally meant "belonging to God", but didn't know the full
meaning of Kal-El. Very cool, thanks for that information.
--
Tim Tjarks
tja...@lucent.com
Andrew Johnston
> Robert D. Kaiser (kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu) quoth:
>
> : As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
> : different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
> : views on theology. Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
> : Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
> : Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
> : ethics that Superman displays today.
>
> There's one obvious technical problem with Superman being Jewish --- at
> least the pre-Crisis Superman, who apparently enjoyed his invulnerability
> from day one.
Hey, maybe he got circumcised on Krypton! It's possible...
A-MAN
Although Superman is created by two Jewish men doesn't make him Jewish.
Remember that Jack Kirby created the Black Panther for marvel...who I
refer to as one of greatest black super heroes ever created. Jack Kirby
wasn't black. I think the idea of creating Superman came from many
sources at the time. Shuster and Siegel wanted to create a work of
fiction that everyone in the world could relate to. THey wanted to
create a character to inspire the whole entire world to do better. I
think if the character had been black, latino/a, etc. or even female, the
success would've been the same.
Remember that WOnder WOman was created by a MAN who also created
the LIE DETECTOR. He did this to compliment the Man of Steel's quest fro
Truth, JUstice, and the AMerican way.
This character was also popular.
Superman was created to be an external observer to Earthly ways. An the
idea of a person being powerful enough to save the world....was very
influential to those who fault in WWII.
Remember that Superman as well as other heroes were always on propaganda
material..."Buy War BOnds", etc.
I don't think they made SUperman to be Jewish. And I don't think
SUperman is Jewish. I think Superman is the last survivor of a dying world.
I think they incorporated all the best qualities of men and women into a
"strange visitor from another planet".
A kryptonian w/ human qualities and powers = Superman
Michael Straight
On 11 Oct 1996, Mike Chary wrote:
> Brian H. Bailie <b.h.b...@larc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >I'm no great theological scholar, but why must one be human to be a Christian?
> One argument along those lines is:
>
> Christ was incarnated as a human and died for humans. The fall *was*, after
> all, a fall of humans from grace. Why should it be assumed that other
> species fell too? That being the case, Christianity might not hold any
> resonance for an alien like Superman. Christ didn't save him from anything.
[contrary argument snipped to suggest a different one]
Other theologians might argue that the important point was not that the
Creator became a creature, not a human per se. The Bible also talks about
Christ redeeming all of creation.
Michael Straight imagines the "Christian" wedding was just being "traditional"
FLEOEVDETYHOEUPROEONREWMEILECSOFMOERSGTIRVAENRGEEARDSTVHIESBIITBTLHEEPSRIACYK
Ethical Mirth Gas/"I'm chaste alright."/Magic Hitler Hats/"Hath grace limits?"
"Irate Clam Thighs!"/Chili Hamster Tag/The Gilt Charisma/"I gather this calm."
Jim Perreault
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) writes:
>but I just wanted to remind everyone that, in a very
>famous Golden Age issue, Hitler himself said, "This Superman, he must be a
>Jew!" So there you are.
Did Hitler himself actually something of that effect? I.E. in real life ?
I'm blanking on the exact words.
Jim
--
Jim Perreault
j...@acsu.buffalo.edu
http://www.sunyerie.edu/jap
Edward Mathews
John P. Selegue (SEL...@ukcc.uky.edu) wrote:
: gust...@iglou.com (IHCOYC XPICTOC) writes:
: >least the pre-Crisis Superman, who apparently enjoyed his invulnerability
: >from day one.
:
: Maybe, but didn't he used to cut his hair with heat vision and a super-mirror?
:
: JPS
*ouch*
Ed (*ouch*) Mathews
*****
**-----
* ---
-
Mazerki
If Supes isn't Christian then explain why he celebrates Christmas (and
in fact goes out of his way to help Santa Claus a few times)... Unless you
mean that post-Crisis thing which is NOT Superman but in fact a renegade
Fortress robot.
-Aaron!
anil tandon
maz...@aol.com (Mazerki) writes:
>-Aaron!
Well, I celebrate Christmas sometimes and I'm not Christian... If nothing else,
it's a cool excuse to buy that cool icicle stuff. :-D
-Anil
Edward Mathews
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: Robert, I responded to your anti-Christianity and pro-Judaism stuff in the
: original thread, but I just wanted to remind everyone that, in a very
: famous Golden Age issue, Hitler himself said, "This Superman, he must be a
: Jew!" So there you are.
: (And I hope that wraps up another thread. <g>)
:
: - Elayne
: --
: E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for a copy of the final issue of ()~~
: the official Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal; ##
: it's free! "Yes, that's right-- fair to all, and no fare to ##
: anybody!... Join the expectant crowd, gathering now!" _##_
Elayne,
Does it work if you're forcing the Hitler reference? And since when is
comicbook Hitler (as opposed to Earth-Prime Hitler) the authority on
Superman's ethnicity? And has this been retconned away by Zero Crisis
Hour of Infinite Timelines 2000?
Ed (now, I hope the thread is dead) Mathews
Trevor Barrie
jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joseph T Arendt) wrote:
> I'd think it would be easier to believe in God or gods in
>the DC universe where miracles are a common occurance and demons
>sometimes show their faces. Or, as in Final Night, make offers on
>TV.
On the flip side, when you consider all the phenomenal happenings and beings
which demonstrably exist in the DC Universe and _aren't_ connected in any
way to God, what would it take to qualify as a "miracle"?
In the real world, if you accept that Jesus of Nazareth really did walk on
water and all the other schticks, it provides some credence to Christianity.
In the DC U, it would prove nothing.
> Imagine what it would do to our world if a bona fide demon
>in a real version of Hell appeared on TV to make an offer to the
>world. Whether the offer is refused, accepted, or ignored, the demon
>just proved there ARE demons and there is a Hell.
Would anybody believe it? In the real world, I daresay few would; in a world
where any number of non-supernatural beings exist who could pull off such a
feat, I suspect even fewer would.
Matthew Daly
kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu (Robert D. Kaiser) writes:
>da...@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) says:
>
>>Clark was clearly raised with Christian values that he continues
>>to hold. Whether he's a believer or not, people are married in
>>churches with less than that.
>
> Uh, that's kind of a narrow vision. I don't see Clark Kent as
>being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
>way of thinking is the only way to be saved.
Is this the cure for my "narrow vision"? The belief that all Christians
are rabid evangelics? If so, then I invite you to actually meet a
few Christians before you speak further on the subject.
>If you are looking for
>that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
>faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
>damnation for not being the correct religion.
I have no idea why you think that Christians condemn people to
eternal damnation -- last I checked, only God was capable of
doing that. Christians are taught not to judge, that they should
themselves not be judged.
>Such open mindedness
>is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
>is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
And which of these open-minded belief systems do you subscribe to,
that you feel the need to brand all Christians as apostolic zealots?
>Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
>Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
>Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
>ethics that Superman displays today.
Be that as it may, having two Jewish parents doesn't mean that
your son will turn out to be a Jew. Just ask Joseph and Mary.... ;-)
-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
da...@ppd.kodak.com even read everything I've bought.
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
CapNuclear
<<Uh, that's kind of a narrow vision. I don't see Clark Kent as
being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.>>
Pardon my saying so, but to classify all Catholics and Protestants as
intolerant, fire-and-brimstone, you'll do as we say types is rather narrow
itself. I was raised Catholic, and at no time was I told that I HAD to be
Catholic to be saved, nor do I believe that myself. That may apply to
certain sects of Christianity, but not all. My take on it is that Clark
was raised by Christians, but the particular denomination was left vague
so as not to shut out readers of other faiths. I've never seen any
evidence to support the assumption that Superman is Jewish. Nothing
against Judaism, but that's just not the way Clark was raised, that's all.
Although, if you ask me, it's high time DC had a few more Jewish heroes in
their universe. And not these lame-o heroes where the whole basis of the
character is they're Jewish ("I'm Dreidleman! Watch me spin these crooks
out of the solar system!"). Superhero religion should be a background
issue, it's important to the character, but not a huge factor. My
Catholisism doesn't come up every day, nor do I go around asserting my
faith. So what if Superman's not Jewish? Just because his creators were
Jewish, that makes him Jewish? Do all the characters Grant Morrison create
have to be white, male and Scottish? What's important is that Superman
does what he does, not under what philosophy he does it.
Bona to vada,
Captain Nuclear
John Saponaro
You're gonna slug me for saying this, but as far as I'm concerned,
Spider-Man is Jewish. Reason One: Stan is. Reason Two: In the classic
stories, Peter Parker acts like a cross between Joel Fleischman and
George Costanza. (Not every Jew is like that, I must point out before I
get flamed by kosher ninjas...)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Edward Mathews (math...@is3.nyu.edu) wrote:
: Elayne Wechsler-Chaput (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: : Robert, I responded to your anti-Christianity and pro-Judaism stuff in the
: : original thread, but I just wanted to remind everyone that, in a very
: : famous Golden Age issue, Hitler himself said, "This Superman, he must be a
: : Jew!" So there you are.
: :
: : (And I hope that wraps up another thread. <g>)
: Does it work if you're forcing the Hitler reference?
It wasn't a forced reference. It was an actual line from an actual GA
book. (I was thinking of submitting it to Mike Chary's "Stupidest Comic
Book Line" contest over in racm, but I always got kind of a kick out of
it...)
: And since when is
: comicbook Hitler (as opposed to Earth-Prime Hitler) the authority on
: Superman's ethnicity?
Hee!
: And has this been retconned away by Zero Crisis
: Hour of Infinite Timelines 2000?
Good lord, I hope so.
: Ed (now, I hope the thread is dead) Mathews
Well, we've both certainly said "Hitler" (in context!) enough times! :)
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
Mazerki (maz...@aol.com) wrote:
: If Supes isn't Christian then explain why he celebrates Christmas (and
: in fact goes out of his way to help Santa Claus a few times)...
I'm not Christian and I celebrate Christmas, to an extent. Do the card
thing, the visiting-husband's-relatives thing, etc.
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <543q83$o...@bud.peinet.pe.ca>,
Trevor Barrie <tba...@cycor.ca> wrote:
>jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joseph T Arendt) wrote:
>
>> I'd think it would be easier to believe in God or gods in
>>the DC universe where miracles are a common occurance and demons
>>sometimes show their faces. Or, as in Final Night, make offers on
>>TV.
>
>On the flip side, when you consider all the phenomenal happenings and beings
>which demonstrably exist in the DC Universe and _aren't_ connected in any
>way to God, what would it take to qualify as a "miracle"?
>
>In the real world, if you accept that Jesus of Nazareth really did walk on
>water and all the other schticks, it provides some credence to Christianity.
>In the DC U, it would prove nothing.
Bwahahaha! Sure enough! I hadn't looked like that. I can
picture it happening though!
* * *
A bearded, robed man appears in Metropolis. He tells a crowd,
"I am the messiah!"
"Prove it," yells somebody in the crowd.
"Cast your nets in that river and they will fill to the
breaking point with fish!"
Some else yells back, "Aquaman could do that, but he'd
never be so cruel to the fish!"
The man points to heckler, "I can read your mind."
The heckler shrugs.
"You are thinking, `What's the big deal? Lori the Mermaid
can read minds and she looks way better!'"
The crowd laughs.
"I can cast down mountains."
A man counters, "So can Superman!"
A nervous, bespecaled man ponders, "Can he, now?"
An old lady replies, "I don't know anymore. When I was a kid
he could."
"Oh, yeah. Back before the skies turned red, Supes could
easily toss aside mountains," says a fat guy.
Another person in the crowd tells them, "Hush up, willya
guys? We aren't supposed to remember that. Orders from the Continuity
Cops."
A young girl yells out, "How about Captain Marvel? She can
toss aside mountains. Can't she?"
A teenage boy chimes in, "There was a guy who used to be
around called Valor that could easily toss mountains."
The robed man said, "I can cure the crippled!"
"I heard some magic healer had to fix up THE BATMAN!"
"Yeah, we know there are some people out there that can
heal the crippled."
Jose shakes his head, "Even LEX LUTHOR can do that with a
neural chip! He did it for me...and Lex is a villian!"
Barbara Gordon, visiting Metropolis on vacation, perks up at
this. She looks up at Jose, obviously standing erect. She has to
look up since she is in her wheelchair. She thinks, "Heck with false
hopes from phony prophets! I'm off to see Luthor!"
Barbara leaves. The Flash would be impressed by how fast she
makes the wheelchair go. Others in the crowd leave too, but not as
quickly.
The robed man, in desperation, turns water to wine.
"Hey, just like Element Lad schtick," says the guy that
remembered the red sky.
The old lady next to him, "Wrong name, bucko. All that
Lad, Lass, Boy, and Girl stuff in the names is gone."
"So what's he called now?"
"How should I know? This is the Twentieth Century, not the
Thirtieth."
Arms outspread, the bearded man thunders, "It shall come to
pass that I shall die and come back to life."
"Our Savior, the great Superman, has already done that!" says
a loonie in the Superman Cult, who somehow escaped out of the weekly
Action Comics.
...and so on.
Joseph Arendt
Harold J. May
gust...@iglou.com (IHCOYC XPICTOC) wrote:
>Robert D. Kaiser (kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu) quoth:
>: As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
>: different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
>: views on theology. Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
>: Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
>: Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
>: ethics that Superman displays today.
>There's one obvious technical problem with Superman being Jewish --- at
>least the pre-Crisis Superman, who apparently enjoyed his invulnerability
>from day one.
The pre-Crisis Superman was born on Krypton and sent to earth as an
infant. NOT invulnerable from day one. HE could have been
circumcised (assuming that is what you meant and assuming that such
was the practice among Kryptonians).
The post-Crisis Superman was "born" on Earth, but his powers developed
as he aged (as I understand it), meaning that he, too, was NOT
invulnerable from day one.
HM<
Mike Chary
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput <fire...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>It wasn't a forced reference. It was an actual line from an actual GA
>book. (I was thinking of submitting it to Mike Chary's "Stupidest Comic
>Book Line" contest over in racm, but I always got kind of a kick out of
>it...)
Not mine, sister. I don't know who started that one.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "The best argument against
democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
Timothy Burke
This thread is the kind of thing that I'd just love the folks who maintain
the DCU to think about seriously, namely, how would a world where
super-powers were pratically the norm be a bit different from our own for
*ordinary people*? You don't have to go the whole hog and make everything
radically different a la Miracleman. But as several people have pointed
out in this thread, you have the problem on one hand that miracles are
commonplace in the DCU: it would be pretty commonsensical to wonder if
Christ was simply a metahuman. On the other hand, God and Satan have
demonstrable, empirically provable existences in the DCU, not merely as
really, really powerful superbeings (which one could dismiss demons and
angels as) but as exactly what monotheistic religions say they are, the
supreme Creator of the universe and the head fallen angel. I can imagine
that one might decide, as Constantine did, that the angels are just as bad
as the demons but it would be pure folly in the DCU not to believe in the
Supreme Being. Incontrovertible evidence is not very hard to come by in
the DCU context. It would be interesting if DC's staff actually took this
fact seriously and follow it to its logical conclusions. I say this as an
atheist: I wouldn't want to whole thing to turn into some drippingly pious
testament...indeed, were I a devout Christian, I might be more than a
little bothered by DC's ersatz theology, since God tends to come off as a
rather nastily manipulative and schizophrenic Old Testament type in the
DCU.
IHCOYC XPICTOC
Harold J. May (noti...@socomm.net) quoth:
: The pre-Crisis Superman was born on Krypton and sent to earth as an
: infant. NOT invulnerable from day one. HE could have been
: circumcised (assuming that is what you meant and assuming that such
: was the practice among Kryptonians).
Well, of course, you're right; if the Kryptonians practiced circumcision,
all bets are off. FBOFW, the "For the Man Who Has Everything" annual
seemed to suggest that a substantial number of Kryptonians were
fundamentalists, and that there was a Kryptonian branch of the KKK.
Paul Sleigh
: being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
: way of thinking is the only way to be saved. If you are looking for
: that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
: faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
: damnation for not being the correct religion. Such open mindedness
: is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
: is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
All fundamentalism is evil, pal - Christian, Mormon, Moonie, Jewish,
Macintosh, atheist... ramming it down people's throats is not an
exclusively christian trait - and it's not a majority one, either. Most
christians aren't as guilty of forcing their beliefs on the world as you
were with the above paragraph! I assume I'm misreading you.
: As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
: different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
: views on theology.
My goodness! Really? Well that's a recent development! Must tell Aryus,
Augustine, Luther, Henry VII and Joseph Smith about this radical change!
: Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
: Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
: Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
: ethics that Superman displays today.
Yes... a disdain for religious bigotry is a large part of Clark's makeup -
but unless you're willing to state that all jews are good and all christians
are evil, you'd be hard pressed to find evidence that his ethics are
uniquely jewish.
: By the way, Superman's real name is Kal-El, which is happens to
: be Hebrew for "The Voice of God". Its not known whether this name was
: given on purpose, or just sounded cool, but its neat to know.
It is... tho I'd like to hear it from a scholar of Hebrew, because it sounds
kind of urban-mythical to me... but I'm willing to be convinced!
: Shalom,
: Robert Kaiser
And peace to you too... but not on your terms. Let's find a common god and
have peace on its terms instead.
: Eric :
John Kozempel
kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu (Robert D. Kaiser) wrote:
> Uh, that's kind of a narrow vision. I don't see Clark Kent as
>being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
>way of thinking is the only way to be saved. If you are looking for
>that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
>faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
>damnation for not being the correct religion. Such open mindedness
>is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
>is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
How is saying that all Protestants and Catholics are intolerant not
equally narrow? Could you please explain this?
--
John Kozempel 305 Warren Square E - (610)758-0846
October 27- The day Homer fights back.
"You think you're God. I, being God, know better."
* * http://www.lehigh.edu/~jlk2/jlk2.html * *
David Serchay
Matthew Daly (da...@PPD.Kodak.COM) wrote:
: Be that as it may, having two Jewish parents doesn't mean that
: your son will turn out to be a Jew. Just ask Joseph and Mary.... ;-)
Reminds me of the old joke. A man goes to temple, kneels down and prays
"God, you must help me. My son is thinking about becomeing a Christian"
A voice then booms from the Heavens "Your Son!"
:)
--
David Serchay
a013...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Vincent Louie - AERE/F92
Harold J. May (noti...@socomm.net) quoth:
: The pre-Crisis Superman was born on Krypton and sent to earth as an
: infant. NOT invulnerable from day one. HE could have been
: circumcised (assuming that is what you meant and assuming that such
: was the practice among Kryptonians).
He could circumcise himself anytime he wants. That's what the shiny
rocket ship wreckage is really good for.
--
vl
Trevor Barrie
da...@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) wrote:
>Clark's been to the Christianesque afterlife -- what's not to believe
>that he's a Christian? We don't see him going to church every
>Sunday, but we also never see him going to the bathroom -- does
>that mean that he holds it in? [eg]
Well, I'm sure at least pre-Crisis he had Super-Bladder-Control.:) Maybe
even post-Crisis - hasn't he spent an extended period in space once or
twice? Just excreting into the void seems kind of undignified for The Man.
>>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>>atheist. :)
>Clark was clearly raised with Christian values that he continues
>to hold.
While there's a good chance that his parents were Christian, I don't see how
this is "clear", unless you consider things like respect for life to be a
"Christian" value.
Trevor Barrie
fire...@panix.com (Elayne Wechsler-Chaput) wrote:
>: I don't see Clark Kent as being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians
>: he doesn't insist that his way of thinking is the only way to be saved.
>This is a very narrow view of Christianity, Robert. I know plenty of
>Christians who don't proselytize and insist on one-true-way'ism.
A fact which Robert passingly acknowledged in the section that you clipped.
But with regards to the traditional view, his statement is spot-on, and I
believe it's still considered canon by the major sects of Christianity (or
at least the major sects of Western Christianity).
>Oh please, Robert. Judaism teaches, among other things, that there are
>different levels of heaven for good, practicing Jews and good, practicing
>non-Jews. That goyim can never attain the highest level unless they
>choose to become Jewish, even if they've never *heard* of Judaism.
Hey, Christianity doesn't even have that, although it has been suggested
that the non-Christians who are really good people get the least Hellish
part of Hell. (There's also the Harrowing of Hell deal, I suppose, but that
doesn't offer much of anything to modern non-Christians.)
Trevor Barrie
maz...@aol.com (Mazerki) wrote:
> If Supes isn't Christian then explain why he celebrates Christmas
I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas. Where do you see the
contradiction? Heck, people were celebrating "Christmas" in one form or
another long before Jesus was even born.
>(and in fact goes out of his way to help Santa Claus a few times)...
I'd go out of my way to help that good pagan, too.:)
>Unless you mean that post-Crisis thing which is NOT Superman but in fact
>a renegade Fortress robot.
Of course we're discussing post-Crisis... the pre-Crisis Superman was
_definitely_ not Christian. He worshipped the Kryptonian sun god.
Post-crisis Supes has never been explicitly placed in any religion, but
considering his upbringing, he's probably a Christian of some flavour.
Mazerki
>I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas. Where do you see the
>contradiction?
Forgive me, this is slightly off-topic, but... "CHRIST," meaning Jesus
Christ, the man proclaimed as the Son of God by "CHRISTians;" "CHRISTmas,"
the day we celebrate the birth of "CHRIST." Can't really see why else one
would see reason to celebrate it but then I continually let Bizarro come
over and eat all my food...
-Aaron!
Trevor Barrie
jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Joseph T Arendt) wrote:
> "Hey, just like Element Lad schtick," says the guy that
>remembered the red sky.
>
> The old lady next to him, "Wrong name, bucko. All that
>Lad, Lass, Boy, and Girl stuff in the names is gone."
Actually, he's still Element Lad.
Scott Hollifield
maz...@aol.com (Mazerki) wrote:
Despite its origins, Christmas is largely a secular holiday these
days, or hadn't you noticed?
I am not a Christian, but I celebrate Christmas, I suppose, to glorify
love, friendship and goodness of spirit among human beings on Earth.
Religion need not play a part, for me, or, I suspect, many other
celebrants.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Hollifield ** sco...@cris.com ** http://www.cris.com/~scotth
Fett
Paul Sleigh wrote:
>
> Robert D. Kaiser (kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu) wrote:
> : Uh, that's kind of a narrow vision. I don't see Clark Kent as
> : being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
> : way of thinking is the only way to be saved.
Ah, like this is probably going to start something, I can feel a big
contravery coming on. But still I'd like you to know that all
Christians don't insist that the Christian way of thinking is the only
way to be saved. An I'm one to prove it, or I should say, I am a living
example of that.
> : If you are looking for
> : that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
> : faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
> : damnation for not being the correct religion. Such open mindedness
> : is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
> : is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
>
> All fundamentalism is evil, pal - Christian, Mormon, Moonie, Jewish,
> Macintosh, atheist... ramming it down people's throats is not an
> exclusively christian trait - and it's not a majority one, either. Most
> christians aren't as guilty of forcing their beliefs on the world as you
> were with the above paragraph! I assume I'm misreading you.
>
> : As for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole other issue, as
> : different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and evolving new
> : views on theology.
>
> My goodness! Really? Well that's a recent development! Must tell Aryus,
> Augustine, Luther, Henry VII and Joseph Smith about this radical change!
>
> : Anyhow, Clark's -real- parents, Jerry Siegel and Joe
> : Shuster, were Jewish!. It was their (Jewish) ethics that created the
> : Superman stories and ethics for the first thirty years or so - the same
> : ethics that Superman displays today.
>
> Yes... a disdain for religious bigotry is a large part of Clark's makeup -
> but unless you're willing to state that all jews are good and all christians
> are evil, you'd be hard pressed to find evidence that his ethics are
> uniquely jewish.
Like, lets be like superman and and not argue over religions. There is
a universal religion that people seem to forget about, and that doesn't
have anything to do with who our prophet of choice is. The fact is that
we are all children of God, who ever he/she may be. All of us. It
wasn't meant to be bickered over. Most of our wars have been fought
over religion, which is so contradictory to to the concept of religion
in itself.
IHCOYC XPICTOC
Trevor Barrie (tba...@cycor.ca) quoth:
: I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas.
Christmas is no longer observed. It's all Exxmas now.
Let's not give gifts. Let's not send cards, either, while we're thinking
of it. And if we pray, pray that the whole grisly scam dries up and blows
away.
--
__________________________________________________________________________
IHCOYC XPICTOC http://members.iglou.com/gustavus gust...@iglou.com
Fascinum meum in opere est, sed tamen in te efficax non est.
Neil Barnes
CapNuclear (capnu...@aol.com) wrote:
: Do all the characters Grant Morrison create
: have to be white, male and Scottish? What's important is that Superman
: does what he does, not under what philosophy he does it.
Umm.. Grant's written himself in to more comics than any other mainstream
comics writer I can think of. He turned up in Animal Man, and King Mob is
definately Grant to a large extent.
neil
Spooon
Douglas Ethington <a08...@academic.csubak.edu> wrote:
>scow...@islandnet.com (Jim Cowling) wrote:
>>OK, so I bought the Wedding Album. It wasn't bad, but man-oh-man,
>>did it seem rushed.
>>
>>My big gripe: why was it a Christian wedding?
Just be glad that the Riot Grrrls didn't pull out a viola for the
processional march. Then it would have been a Christian viola
wedding. ((Shudder))
Spooon, who sometimes goes by the name James R. Henry
Spo...@juno.com
rl...@uakron.edu
"Ninety-eight precent of the adilts in this country are decent
hard-working, honest Americans, It's the other lousy two-
percent that get all the publicity. But then -- we elected
them."
- Lily Tomlin
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <54bl04$d...@bud.peinet.pe.ca>,
How about that. I thought the "Lad" names were gone, like
Ferro Lad becoming simply Ferro when appearing in _Final Night_.
Joseph Arendt
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <3269B5...@popd.ix.netcom.com>,
Fett <#Gw...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Paul Sleigh wrote:
>>
>> Robert D. Kaiser (kai...@pofvax.pnb.sunysb.edu) wrote:
>> : Uh, that's kind of a narrow vision. I don't see Clark Kent as
>> : being Christian at all. Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his
>> : way of thinking is the only way to be saved.
>
>
>Ah, like this is probably going to start something, I can feel a big
>contravery coming on. But still I'd like you to know that all
>Christians don't insist that the Christian way of thinking is the only
>way to be saved. An I'm one to prove it, or I should say, I am a living
>example of that.
On the TV news, I saw that the pope appeared in public for the
first time since his operation. He thanked both believers and
nonbelievers for their assistance and concern. I found that a bit of
an unusual thing for a pope to say. Nice, though.
I don't know whether that has anything to do with nonbelievers
being damned, though. :-)
>> : If you are looking for
>> : that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/Superman respects people of all
>> : faiths/ethnicites and species, without condemning any of them to eternal
>> : damnation for not being the correct religion. Such open mindedness
>> : is common to Buddisim, Humanism, Judaism and other belief systems, but
>> : is the antithesis of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
There was an interesting storyline some years back where Clark
Kent uncovered that some Arabs thought Superman was anti-Arab because of
his attack on Qurac. In the story about the attack, it seemed Superman
had very good reasons for attacking Qurac. Still, I found it interesting
that a mere comic book would mention the complexity where some people would
assume Superman had acted very unjustly and his actions were racially
motivated.
I think this was written by Jerry Ordway.
...
>Like, lets be like superman and and not argue over religions. There is
>a universal religion that people seem to forget about, and that doesn't
>have anything to do with who our prophet of choice is. The fact is that
>we are all children of God, who ever he/she may be. All of us. It
>wasn't meant to be bickered over. Most of our wars have been fought
>over religion, which is so contradictory to to the concept of religion
>in itself.
But some atheists don't believe there is any God for all of us
to be children of. How can it be the "universal religion" if atheists
aren't included?
If you go check the newsgroup alt.recovery.aa (I think that is
the name), there seem to always be arguments about how offensively
religious it is to refer to a "Higher Power," however one choses to
define Him or Her. If simply referring to "Higher Power" causes such
divisiveness, I have no hope for any sort of "universal religion."
>> And peace to you too... but not on your terms. Let's find a common god and
>> have peace on its terms instead.
>>
>> : Eric :
No, thanks.
By the way, I saw an amusing cartoon in the early Eighties.
The text said something like, "He came to Earth to save mankind.
He accomplished miracles." There was some more like that. Next
to this text was a picture of Superman. The final line, indicating
the picture, said, "This is not Him!"
Some years later, when _Action Comics_ became _Action Comics
Weekly_, there was a Superman story where a cult decided he was a
god. Superman himself was mostly annoyed by this. This storyline
strongly reminded me of the This-is-not-Him cartoon.
For more recent readers, the cult that worships Superman
appeared in "Funeral for a Friend" and/or "Reign of the Supermen."
Joseph Arendt
IHCOYC XPICTOC
Joseph T Arendt (jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) quoth:
: By the way, I saw an amusing cartoon in the early Eighties.
: The text said something like, "He came to Earth to save mankind.
: He accomplished miracles." There was some more like that. Next
: to this text was a picture of Superman. The final line, indicating
: the picture, said, "This is not Him!"
The Billy Graham Evangelical Association, back in 1978, distributed a book
published by Bethany Fellowship by John Wesley White, which bore the title
"The Man from Krypton: The Gospel According to Superman."
The author basically hung a rather standard evangelical tract around
familiar elements of the Superman mythos.
If anyone wants to check it out, the ISBN is 0-87123-384-3.
Johanna Draper
In article <DzLuu...@iglou.com>, IHCOYC XPICTOC <gust...@iglou.com> wrote:
>The Billy Graham Evangelical Association, back in 1978, distributed a book
>published by Bethany Fellowship by John Wesley White, which bore the title
>"The Man from Krypton: The Gospel According to Superman."
I just found that, at a flea market packed with the Tempo JLA paperback and
Maggin's Last Son of Krypton. I haven't gotten a chance yet to read it
before selling it.
Johanna
David Scott Doty
Fett <#Gw...@popd.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Like, lets be like superman and and not argue over religions. There is
>a universal religion that people seem to forget about, and that doesn't
>have anything to do with who our prophet of choice is. The fact is that
>we are all children of God, who ever he/she may be. All of us. It
>wasn't meant to be bickered over. Most of our wars have been fought
>over religion, which is so contradictory to to the concept of religion
>in itself.
>
Of course, you're forgetting that not all religions are built
around the concept of a god.
--
Dave Doty
"We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else
will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if
no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we *ever* existed."
-Kara, Christmas with the Superheroes #2
Matthew Daly
tba...@cycor.ca (Trevor Barrie) writes:
>da...@PPD.Kodak.COM (Matthew Daly) wrote:
>
>>Clark's been to the Christianesque afterlife -- what's not to believe
>>that he's a Christian? We don't see him going to church every
>>Sunday, but we also never see him going to the bathroom -- does
>>that mean that he holds it in? [eg]
>
>Well, I'm sure at least pre-Crisis he had Super-Bladder-Control.:) Maybe
>even post-Crisis - hasn't he spent an extended period in space once or
>twice? Just excreting into the void seems kind of undignified for The Man.
Indeed. But I bet that Superman has more control over his bladder
than he would over his lungs. He probably just took a pit stop every
time he stopped to refill his oxygen tank.
>>>But Clark? He's not even human. And somehow Lois strikes me as
>>>atheist. :)
>
>>Clark was clearly raised with Christian values that he continues
>>to hold.
>
>While there's a good chance that his parents were Christian, I don't see how
>this is "clear", unless you consider things like respect for life to be a
>"Christian" value.
Respect for life is a pretty ecumenical concept, but we're talking
about saving the life of someone who you know will escape to kill
again. That's a very dogmatic respect for life, and one that I
personally don't see being attached to Secular Humanism or Unitarianism.
He could be very Buddhist or very Jewish or very Christian, but then
you have to look at what Jonithan and Martha would have taught him
in rural Kansas.
-Matthew, just my opinions
--
Matthew Daly I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
da...@ppd.kodak.com even read everything I've bought.
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
Blackjack
gust...@iglou.com (IHCOYC XPICTOC) wrote:
>Trevor Barrie (tba...@cycor.ca) quoth:
>: I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas.
>Christmas is no longer observed. It's all Exxmas now.
>Let's not give gifts. Let's not send cards, either, while we're thinking
>of it. And if we pray, pray that the whole grisly scam dries up and blows
>away.
I'm sorry, but this is off topic. It belongs in RACMX-mas.
Blackjack
CapNuclear
I meant ALL of his characters.
Jeez, I was just trying to make a point!
There's no arguing with fanboys, I guess.
Captain Nuclear
Matthew Daly
tba...@cycor.ca (Trevor Barrie) writes:
>maz...@aol.com (Mazerki) wrote:
>
>>(and in fact goes out of his way to help Santa Claus a few times)...
>
>I'd go out of my way to help that good pagan, too.:)
Saint Nicolaus?
>>Unless you mean that post-Crisis thing which is NOT Superman but in fact
>>a renegade Fortress robot.
>
>Of course we're discussing post-Crisis... the pre-Crisis Superman was
>_definitely_ not Christian. He worshipped the Kryptonian sun god.
Great Rao! <giggle> I thought that was just Supergirl's faith.
-Matthew, disgusted but oddly fascinated by this thread.... :-)
Robert D. Kaiser
Regarding the thread "Is Superman Jewish", I had orginally written:
I don't see Clark Kent as being Christian at all.
Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his way of
thinking is the only way to be saved. If you are
looking for that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/
Superman respects people of all faiths/ethnicites and
species, without condemning any of them to eternal
damnation for not being the correct religion. Such
open mindedness is common to Buddisim, Humanism,
Judaism and other belief systems, but is the antithesis
of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
frui...@canberra.DIALix.oz.au (Paul Sleigh) responded:
All fundamentalism is evil, pal - Christian, Mormon, Moonie,
Jewish, Macintosh, atheist... ramming it down people's throats
is not an exclusively christian trait - and it's not a
majority one, either. Most christians aren't as guilty of
forcing their beliefs on the world as you were with the above
paragraph! I assume I'm misreading you.
Agreed, all fundamentalism is evil, and it certainly isn't a Chrisitian
trait - its a general human one. As for forcing beliefs, however,
historically Christians have forced their beliefs on others. My people have
an extensive relationship with purveyors of "Chrisitian Love", and its isn't
a pleasant one. Even today I am constantly told by people (even people I
work with) that me, my family and all of my people, are going to burn in
Hell forever because I don't worship Jesus. I don't live in some hick town,
either. I am talking about everyday experiences in Boston and New York.
As for "Most christians aren't as guilty of forcing their beliefs on
the world as you were with the above paragraph!", I never have forced my
beleifs on anyone. I regret giving any such impression. Judaism preaches
that God loves everyone, and we believe that no one needs to believe in our
God for salvation. Of course, we do think we're right, but the main point
is that our religion tells us that all people are recognized by God for
what they do, not the belief system they hold. I don't care if anyone
worships no god, one god, three gods, or seventy four gods. Certainly I
would never impose my belief system - in fact I was rejecting other people's
attempts at doing so.
I also had written that as for today's Chrisitianity, that's a whole
other issue, as different sects are developing, arguing, synthesizing and
evolving new views on theology.
Reply:
My goodness! Really? Well that's a recent development!
Must tell Aryus, Augustine, Luther, Henry VII and Joseph Smith
about this radical change!
Good point. To clarify, I was discussing the issue of how Christians
view non-Chrisitians, not how Chrisitian sects disagree with each other.
When it comes to Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Buddists, Jews, etc, all of the
above people don't really have that much of a difference.
Yes... a disdain for religious bigotry is a large part of Clark's
makeup - but unless you're willing to state that all jews are
good and all christians are evil, you'd be hard pressed to find
evidence that his ethics are uniquely jewish.
My goodness! I would never think that all people any group are good
and all people of any other group are bad. And I never said that Clark's
ethics are *uniquely* Jewish. But they are in fact directly against the
teachings of the New Testamant. (e.g, all Synagogues are literally the
House of the Devil, the Torah is for murderers, thieves and adulterers, etc).
The New Testmanet is very clear and repetetive on its main thesis: Through
Jesus and the church find Heaven, all other paths lead to Hell.
I also wrote that Superman's real name is Kal-El, which is happens to
be Hebrew for "The Voice of God". There are actually two ways this can be
interpreted. With the Hebrew letters Kuf,Lamed, it means "The Voice of God".
With the letters Kaf,Lamed, it means "All of God" or "Full Divinity" or
something to that effect. It probably really doesn't mean anything, as I am
sure that Superman was never meant as a divine figure like the Spectre. Its
just that Jews often give their children compound names that are like this,
i.e. a name followed by "El". For instance, my Hebrew name is "Yirachme-El",
which means "May God render compassion".
Robert Kaiser
Robert D. Kaiser
Regarding the thread "Is Superman Jewish", I had orginally written:
I don't see Clark Kent as being Christian at all.
Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his way of
thinking is the only way to be saved. If you are
looking for that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/
Superman respects people of all faiths/ethnicites and
species, without condemning any of them to eternal
damnation for not being the correct religion. Such
open mindedness is common to Buddisim, Humanism,
Judaism and other belief systems, but is the antithesis
of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
Captain Nuclear wrote back:
Pardon my saying so, but to classify all Catholics and
Protestants as intolerant, fire-and-brimstone, you'll do as
we say types is rather narrow itself.
Just to clarify myself, I never said that all people who identify
themselves as Catholics and Protestants are fire-and-brimstone types. I said
the *religion* was. However, so are most of the followers. If you do not
believe that all non-believers are going to hell, that is great, but you are
not accepting the full belief systems of Catholic or Protestant Christianity.
Reading Luthor makes me sick, and even the latest writings by today's Pope
contains statements that most people on this newsgroup would consider very
intolerant.
I am not making the rules; Other people made these and followed them
for 2,000 years. I'm just pointing them out. In fact, in many circles you
would be flamed for insinuating that Chrisitians are allowed to believe that
not all Jews are damned. Even the people where I work consider me and my
people damned to hell. They would consider you to be a non-believer!
I was raised Catholic, and at no time was I told that I HAD
to be Catholic to be saved, nor do I believe that myself. That
may apply to certain sects of Christianity, but not all.
That's great, but you are not typical of most Catholics. You may pray
in a Catholic church, but most Catholics worldwide, and throughout history,
don't agree with you. You are one of moral minority (which I believe is
growing). I agree with what you believe in, but I wish to point out that you
are more unqiue than you think.
My take on it is that Clark was raised by Christians, but the
particular denomination was left vague so as not to shut out
readers of other faiths. I've never seen any evidence to support
the assumption that Superman is Jewish. Nothing against Judaism,
but that's just not the way Clark was raised, that's all.
That's absolutely true. I originally wrote my post in response to
someone who said that Superman exhibited his idea of Christian morality,
which I disagreed with, so I turned the idea around. Superman, post-crisis,
is almost absolutely a member some Christian denomination. Its just that his
creators, and a few of later writers and editors, were really Jewish, and I
thought I could detect that. Pre-crisis, I think he adopted a Kryptonian
belief system.
Peace,
Robert Kaiser
Robert D. Kaiser
Regarding the thread "Is Superman Jewish", I had orginally written:
I don't see Clark Kent as being Christian at all.
Unlike Chrisitians he doesn't insist that his way of
thinking is the only way to be saved. If you are
looking for that, check out the Eradicator. Clark/
Superman respects people of all faiths/ethnicites and
species, without condemning any of them to eternal
damnation for not being the correct religion. Such
open mindedness is common to Buddisim, Humanism,
Judaism and other belief systems, but is the antithesis
of classical Protestant and Catholic Christianity.
John Kozempel <jl...@lehigh.edu> wrote:
How is saying that all Protestants and Catholics are intolerant
not equally narrow? Could you please explain this?
Fair question. There are two main points. One, the situation is not
symetrical. As a Jew, I do not think anyone has to convert to my religion
to be saved. We teach that God loves all people based on their deeds and what
is in their heart, not on any creed or belief system. In fact, we do not
believe in original sin and believe that whatever salvation exists, is
eequally available to all people. No one needs to convert to be 'saved'.
This is in direct contrast to Christianity, which says that Jesus is the
only way to redeem oneself from the orignal sin, and all those who don't
follow Jesus are doomed to burn in hell forever. So how can you say that
Jewish point of view is narrow, when it says God loves all? All I said is
that certain belief systems are more open minded about general salvation than
Christianity. That's not narrow, that's just an accurate description.
Second, you may mistake your own belief system for being the same as
Christian, when in fact that may not be so. Do you really believe the New
Testment when it says that the Torah is only for thieves, liars, and
murderers? Do you really believe that all non-Chrisitians are going to burn
in Hell? If not, then you are merely accepting the part of Chrisitianity
that talks about Jesus, but you are rejecting many of the other parts.
Within the world of the DC Universe, I really doubt Superman believes
that all people of other religions are contaminated with an original sin that
dooms them all to Hell. He's just not written that way. Even the Spectre
has his doubts about how it all works, and if any DC character has the right
to say "I KNOW how this works", its him.
Shalom,
Robert
Matthew R. Sheahan
A-MAN (ahal...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
> Although Superman is created by two Jewish men doesn't make him Jewish.
indeed. Jewishness is generally inherited matrilineally, and two men
just don't cut it.
chiaroscuro
Neil Barnes
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: Oh please, Robert. Judaism teaches, among other things, that there are
: different levels of heaven for good, practicing Jews and good, practicing
: non-Jews. That goyim can never attain the highest level unless they
Of course, Dante's Inferno reserved one of the earlier circles of hell for
virtuous pagans, so a second class bit of heaven is probably a bit of an
improvement :)
neil
Neil Barnes
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput (fire...@panix.com) wrote:
: Mazerki (maz...@aol.com) wrote:
: : If Supes isn't Christian then explain why he celebrates Christmas (and
: : in fact goes out of his way to help Santa Claus a few times)...
:
: thing, the visiting-husband's-relatives thing, etc.
Christmas is older than Christianity anyway (if that makes any sense :).
It was a perfectly good pagan festival before the killjoys got their hands
on it :)
neil
Len Leshin
The same circle was reserved for the creators of non-dairy creamer and
the "butter" movie theatres put on popcorn.
--
Len L.
lle...@davlin.net
Spooon
nb4...@wfcs.bris.ac.uk (Neil Barnes) wrote:
Actually, I think John Byrne tends to put himself into more comics
that Grant does. He's done it multiple times in both SHe-Hulk and FF.
>neil
Len Leshin
Just out of curiosity, is there any major character in the DC Universe
definitely shown as being Jewish? Several months ago, several people
listed Jewish characters in other universes, but I don't recall any in
the DCU.
--
Len L.
lle...@davlin.net