Who hasn't died in the DCU? ***Spoileriffic for those who live under a rock***
Marty
come back to life (some it's only a matter of time).
1st Tier
Superman? Check
Batman? Check
WW? Check
1.5th Tier
Flash - Barry Allen? Check
Green Lantern - Hal Jordan? Check
2nd tier
Green Arrow - Oiver Queen? Check
Martian Manhunter? Check
Hawkman (All?)? Check
Aquaman - Arthur Curry? Check
Robin - Jason Todd? Check
3rd Tier
Green Lantern - Kyle Rayner? Check
Superboy - Connor Kent? Check
Impulse - Bart Allen? Check
Metamorpho? Check
Plasticman? Kind of. But he can't really be killed
Donna Troy? I think she died once?
Tempest? Is he dead?
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
I mean once people start dying more than once, death is just a joke
(not that it isn't already). Who are then the obvious choices to next
kick the proverbial? By that I mean, who are the odd ones out?
"What do you mean you haven't died before?!"
Flash Wally West? Did he ever die? I recall him outracing Death the
once...
Supergirl - Kara? could be, but she's a bit new...
Nightwing/Batman - Dick Grayson? I know DiDio had his eye on him at
some point...
Black Canary - Dinah Lance? she's never died?
Robin - Tim Drake Ah they couldn't!!
Wondergirl - Cassie Sandmark? Nah that'd just be in bad taste!
ri
The Tiers confuse me. Did all of these people really come back yet?
Michael
> Seems like all the principle characters in DC Comics have died...and
> come back to life (some it's only a matter of time).
> Batman? Check
We don't really know if he died or not.
> WW? Check
She did in the fact that she died in the first Crisis, but not within
continuity (like Superman or Green Arrow for instance).
> Flash - Barry Allen? Check
I thought that retcon said he didn't actually die?
> Martian Manhunter? Check
Did he die and come back?
> Hawkman (All?)? Check
> Green Lantern - Kyle Rayner? Check
> Tempest? Is he dead?
Aren't all three of these died and having come back pending the end f
Blackest Night? I don't think they've done so otherwise. Well, Carter
Hall has died and come back many times, but I'm not sure reincarnation
counts.
> Superboy - Connor Kent? Check
> Impulse - Bart Allen? Check
> Metamorpho? Check
>
> Plasticman? Kind of. But he can't really be killed
> Donna Troy? I think she died once?
At least.
> Black Canary - Dinah Lance? she's never died?
The Golden Age version (the current one's mother) died. Dunno if she
came back.
> Robin - Tim Drake Ah they couldn't!!
Michael
Anlatt the Builder
> Marty wrote:
>
> > WW? Check
>
> She did in the fact that she died in the first Crisis, but not within
> continuity (like Superman or Green Arrow for instance).
>
>
In a late post-Crisis on Infinite Earths John Byrne story, she was
murdered and chopped up. Dead as a doornail. However, when Zeus
realized she was his great-grandaughter (we were informed, in
contradiction to everything we knew about the DCU Amazons, that Ares
was somehow Hippolyta's father), he brought her back to life as the
Goddess of Truth.
[Begin Sarcasm] Because, as we all know, Zeus is very sentimental
about all his descendents, right down to the great-grandchildren.
That's why none of them get killed in the Greek myths. [End sarcasm]
But Wonder Woman didn't like the gig, because it involved watching
people suffer and not interfering. So she was demoted to mortal, with
the added punishment that she began to age normally. A condition we
never saw any consequences of.
I think this was the point at which Hippolyta took over as Wonder
Woman, and then went in the past as Wonder Woman and served with the
JSA in WW II. The contradictions and contrivances involved in that
aspect of the story are myriad, but not worth recounting now.
This was all in continuity before Final Crisis. Whether it is now is
unknown.
grinningdemon
I distinctly recall reading that Didio has said that Hyppolyta was
still the WW of the JSA...which implies that the rest is still in
continuity.
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Seems like all the principle characters in DC Comics have died...and
>come back to life (some it's only a matter of time).
>
>1st Tier
>Superman? Check
>Batman? Check
>WW? Check
>
>1.5th Tier
>Flash - Barry Allen? Check
>Green Lantern - Hal Jordan? Check
>
>2nd tier
>Green Arrow - Oiver Queen? Check
>Martian Manhunter? Check
He hasn't come back except as a black lantern.
>Hawkman (All?)? Check
>Aquaman - Arthur Curry? Check
>Robin - Jason Todd? Check
>
>3rd Tier
>Green Lantern - Kyle Rayner? Check
I still don't think he's really dead...but he did die and come back in
Obsidian Age as I mention below.
>Superboy - Connor Kent? Check
>Impulse - Bart Allen? Check
>Metamorpho? Check
>
>Plasticman? Kind of. But he can't really be killed
>Donna Troy? I think she died once?
She's had one significant death (in the Graduation Day storyline) and
she was also erased from existence at one point in Byrne's WW
run...she got better both times.
Part of her origin is that she has lived many lives that all ended
badly (kind of like Hawkman).
>Tempest? Is he dead?
He died in blackest night and returned as a black lantern (doesn't
really count as a resurrection).
>etc.
>etc.
>etc.
>etc.
>
>I mean once people start dying more than once, death is just a joke
>(not that it isn't already). Who are then the obvious choices to next
>kick the proverbial? By that I mean, who are the odd ones out?
>
>"What do you mean you haven't died before?!"
>
>Flash Wally West? Did he ever die? I recall him outracing Death the
>once...
He died as much as Barry died...at one point, he ran too fast and got
sucked into the speed force (the afterlife of the speedsters) but was
able to return because Linda was his anchor (an idea that has now
become very important in Flash Rebirth as only the speedsters with
true loves as anchors can return from the speed force.
>Supergirl - Kara? could be, but she's a bit new...
Depends on if you count her death in CoIE.
>Nightwing/Batman - Dick Grayson? I know DiDio had his eye on him at
>some point...
He was supposed to die in Infinite Crisis when Alexander Luthor shot
him but fans were bitching so Didio relented...and, given what they've
done with Batman recently, I really wish they'd just killed Dick off.
>Black Canary - Dinah Lance? she's never died?
The Golden Age BC (her mother) died (of cancer, I believe)...she has
only returned as a Black Lantern.
There was a story early on in Birds of Prey where Dinah was mortally
wounded and only saved with a dip in the lazarus pitt but I don't
think she was acually dead first.
>Robin - Tim Drake Ah they couldn't!!
>Wondergirl - Cassie Sandmark? Nah that'd just be in bad taste!
Most characters who have been around for any length of time have had
at least one temporary death that was undone before the end of the
storyline in question...for instance, the entire Justice League died
in the Obsidian Age story arc and they were all brought back at the
end of it.
Your tier system needs some serious work.
grinningdemon
All but those that died in Blackest Night...and Martian
Manhunter...Aquaman is currently dead too but he died and came back
once before already.
Paragon
"Marty" <killha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:559202a7-2985-4366...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Seems like all the principle characters in DC Comics have died...and
> come back to life (some it's only a matter of time).
>
Power Girl. You would think after all the mess, she would have died at
least once.....
grinningdemon
wrote:
Well, since she's essentially the same person as Supergirl, she kind
of has...that said, I'm not sure she would count as a principle
character of the DCU...she may be rather prominent these days but, in
the past, she's gone years without appearing in any significant role.
Paragon
"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:al5eg5toivui37r70...@4ax.com...
That's why I am surprised she wasn't killed off years ago.
Michael
I think they were too busy banging their heads against the wall for an
origin that'd stick and were too preoccupied to kill her.
Michael
Michael
I did not know all this.
Michael
grinningdemon
wrote:
Post crisis WW has been pretty convoluted, even when it was good...it
may not be the popular opinion, but I personally liked Byrne's run
until he started screwing with Donna Troy...I even liked the
time-travel bit with Hyppolyta to restore WW to the JSA...it's a
decent continuity fix as long as you don't think too hard about time
paradoxes and what not...and it set up some good modern JSA
stories...I particularly liked when Jiminez explored Hyppolyta's WW
tenure in the past in his WW run.
black...@aol.com
> Seems like all the principle characters in DC Comics have died...and
> come back to life (some it's only a matter of time).
>
> 1st Tier
> Superman? Check
> Batman? Check
Did Bruce Wayne actually die? I thought he was just trapped in time
somewhere.
grinningdemon
Undetermined...that is what it looks like at the end of Final Crisis
but there was a body...a body whose skull is now being carried around
by the Black Hand...that said, the fact that he didn't rise as a Black
Lantern would seem to be a strong indication that he isn't actually
dead (that plus Tim Drake has already located the cave painting he was
making at the end of FC).
Anlatt the Builder
wrote:
No offense to you personally, but it really doesn't imply that at all.
They can keep Hippolyta as the GA WW and change just about any other
part of the story that they want, or simply leave most of it
unexplored.
One recent storyline that prompts me to make this comment is the "new"
origin of the current-day Black Canary: she's still the daughter of
the GA BC, but they've changed just about everything else. For
example, instead of growing up with the members of the JSA as her
"aunts" and "uncles," she didn't even know about her mother's life as
a superhero until she was in her late teens and had a horrific (and
cliched) accident when her Canary Cry manifested. (This was to give
her a nemesis.) Then Wildcat busted through the window in costume....
Anyway, it's very different from what we previously believed about her
life.
grinningdemon
It's true that the history may well have changed but, until we see it
in print or hear it from the powers that be, it hasn't...all we know
as of this moment is that Hyppolyta was still in the JSA...until some
other info is given, all we can really do is assume that the story
that made that possible still stands as continuity.
>One recent storyline that prompts me to make this comment is the "new"
>origin of the current-day Black Canary: she's still the daughter of
>the GA BC, but they've changed just about everything else. For
>example, instead of growing up with the members of the JSA as her
>"aunts" and "uncles," she didn't even know about her mother's life as
>a superhero until she was in her late teens and had a horrific (and
>cliched) accident when her Canary Cry manifested. (This was to give
>her a nemesis.) Then Wildcat busted through the window in costume....
I really wish this lame ass GA/BC never existed...they never should
have taken her out of Birds of Prey or married them off at all.
>Anyway, it's very different from what we previously believed about her
>life.
Yes, but, up until it saw print, the change did not exist...and,
actually, was there ever a story that specifically stated she knew
about her mother being BC all along? Because, unless I missed
something somewhere (perhaps from the post Crisis Secret Origins
series?), all I remember were references after the fact and, as the
"new" origin begins with her as a teen, it could still be said that
she "grew up" around the JSA from that point on...and her being
especially close to Wildcat (as has been shown in recent years) still
fits given that he was the one to train her.
Unknown
It wasn't the fans, it was writers at DC who told DiDio that it was a bad
idea to kill off Dick. For what I've heard, it was Paul Levitz who made the
final decision to not kill him. (And I've also heard that if Dick had died,
the plan was that Barbara Gordon was going to be walking again and a costume
crimefighter to boot.)
grinningdemon
Yeah, I've heard the bit about how Barbara was supposed to be Batwoman
(which is why she has red hair)...while I generally prefer Barbara as
Oracle, I think having Dick dead and Barbara back in action would be
infinitely preferable to the current bullshit...I don't even
understand how the morons at DC think these stupid legacy/replacements
are remotely interesting now that they are a dime a dozen.
Unknown
Yeah, but we all know this is only temporary. Some of what's coming out is
good. (Plus Batman Confidental still has Bruce as does two miniseries
currently going.)
grinningdemon
I know it's only temporary...most of the replacements/legacies
are...but that doesn't make me like it any more...I haven't liked
anything Morrison has done since his run on JLA...I've never cared
much for Dick Grayson and I have zero interest in any Batman that
isn't Bruce Wayne...moreover, I find the way they did away with Bruce
with so little fanfare or respect and immediately shoved someone else
in his suit to be offensive as a life-long Batman fan...I can't stand
Damien at all...and, even though I like Stephanie Brown, I'm still
pissed that they dropped Cassandra as Batgirl...and I'm sick of Tim
Drake whining like a little bitch about all the people he's lost (I
love the character but hate the direction they've taken him in the
last couple years).
And I know there are still some books with Bruce as Batman (you forgot
Brave & the Bold and Superman/Batman) but most of them aren't any good
(though I am kind of enjoying the current Blackhawk arc in Batman
Confidential)...as far as I'm concerned, they can't bring Batman back
fast enough, but, when they do, I worry we'll end up with some goofy
shit like both of them being Batman (like how they keep adding
Flashes)...Didio needs to be fired for so many reasons but his
decision to ditch Batman is #1 on the list.
OM
>For what I've heard, it was Paul Levitz who made the
>final decision to not kill him.
...According to some sources, Levitz was left totally out of the
"we're killing Dick in 'Infinite Crisis'" loop until it came time to
get the final sign-off. By then, Levitz had been getting word through
the fan press that something was up, and it all sort of dovetailed
into "you want to do *what*?!?! No fucking way!" Unluckily, about the
same time they needed to get rid of Superboy, at least temporarily to
give the lawyers some time to figure out whether the Siegel heirs
actually had any legs to stand on with their greed, so the story was
changed to having Connor killed instead of Dick.
Of course, in just a few months, pretty much every death in the DCU
will be a moot point when "Blackest Night" finally wraps up...
OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
OM
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>I really wish this lame ass GA/BC never existed...
...I actually dropped it off my pull list after the "Who Killed Connor
And Stole His Body To Rape Him And Turn Him Into Plastic Man" story
concluded. They spend all that time getting Ollie and Dinah together,
then break them up, then back together, then split the book in half.
All at the drop of a fishnet. It's probably the worst-written book in
DC's lineup these days, with You-Know-Who's flaccid attempts at
writing "Wonder Woman" coming in a really close second.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:37:37 -0600, grinningdemon
><grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>I really wish this lame ass GA/BC never existed...
>
>...I actually dropped it off my pull list after the "Who Killed Connor
>And Stole His Body To Rape Him And Turn Him Into Plastic Man" story
>concluded. They spend all that time getting Ollie and Dinah together,
>then break them up, then back together, then split the book in half.
>All at the drop of a fishnet. It's probably the worst-written book in
>DC's lineup these days, with You-Know-Who's flaccid attempts at
>writing "Wonder Woman" coming in a really close second.
Actually, my biggest problem with the book is that they spen NO time
getting Ollie and Dinah together...she just showed up at the tail end
of the last GA series, declared him a changed man, and married
him...it made absolutely NO sense with what had happened with those
characters in the last 20 years or so...plus Dinah is a far stronger
and more interesting character on her own at this point...it was a
mistake for DC to marry them off.
And, with all the terrible story directions going on at DC right now,
it's next to impossible to figure out which is the worst.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:16:01 -0600, "MG" <()> wrote:
>
>>For what I've heard, it was Paul Levitz who made the
>>final decision to not kill him.
>
>...According to some sources, Levitz was left totally out of the
>"we're killing Dick in 'Infinite Crisis'" loop until it came time to
>get the final sign-off. By then, Levitz had been getting word through
>the fan press that something was up, and it all sort of dovetailed
>into "you want to do *what*?!?! No fucking way!" Unluckily, about the
>same time they needed to get rid of Superboy, at least temporarily to
>give the lawyers some time to figure out whether the Siegel heirs
>actually had any legs to stand on with their greed, so the story was
>changed to having Connor killed instead of Dick.
I actually think Conner should have stayed dead...but, from the story
construction and all the tie-ins, I kind of assumed that Dick and
Conner were BOTH supposed to die in Infinite Crisis...at least it
didn't seem like a last minute re-write the way that final scene
showing that Dick was still alive did.
>Of course, in just a few months, pretty much every death in the DCU
>will be a moot point when "Blackest Night" finally wraps up...
There is no conceivable way that all the Black Lanterns will come back
to life for real...I mean, they even brought back Dick Grayson's and
Tim Drake's parents...my guess is resurrectios will mostly be limited
to characters who died during the event itself.
Lilith
Or that even Batman can't be resurrected if someone is carrying the
skull separated from the body.
--
Lilith
grinningdemon
wrote:
Well, since certain dead heroes (Aquaman and Ted Kord, for instance)
didn't leave any body behind at all and still managed to rise as Black
Lanterns, I would think partial remains wouldn't be such a problem for
them...that said, did I miss the part where they explained WHY Black
Hand is carrying Batman's skull around?
OM
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Actually, my biggest problem with the book is that they spen NO time
>getting Ollie and Dinah together...she just showed up at the tail end
>of the last GA series, declared him a changed man, and married
>him...it made absolutely NO sense with what had happened with those
>characters in the last 20 years or so...plus Dinah is a far stronger
>and more interesting character on her own at this point...it was a
>mistake for DC to marry them off.
...Part of this was to address fanboy demands that Ollie and Dinah
either get hitched once and for all, or split up once and for all. The
real issue isn't so much with the resolution of the courtship and the
nuptuals, but the way the two have been handled since has been
haphazard at best. It's almost as if the various writing teams simply
don't know how to write a married couple that happen to be
superheroes.
Marty
I'm all ears, dear.
The point was that *all* of the higher tier DC superheroes have died
(and indeed may have come back to life).
I know death means next to nothing in comics, but I hadn't realised
(until I compiled that list) that *all* of the characters that matter
had died (and perhaps got better).
Can the same be said of all of Marvels majors? (I don't really read
Marvel so I wouldn't know.)
Lilith
One can argue that Thor did. Spider-Man was kinda reborn but never
died that I know of. Usually when someone dies in the MU and is
resurrrected there's an explanation for it, like Charles Xavier having
faked his death, using Changling to imitate him while he went into
research exile.
--
Lilith
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:32:10 -0600, grinningdemon
><grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Actually, my biggest problem with the book is that they spen NO time
>>getting Ollie and Dinah together...she just showed up at the tail end
>>of the last GA series, declared him a changed man, and married
>>him...it made absolutely NO sense with what had happened with those
>>characters in the last 20 years or so...plus Dinah is a far stronger
>>and more interesting character on her own at this point...it was a
>>mistake for DC to marry them off.
>
>...Part of this was to address fanboy demands that Ollie and Dinah
>either get hitched once and for all, or split up once and for all.
My vote would have been to split them up for good.
The
>real issue isn't so much with the resolution of the courtship and the
>nuptuals, but the way the two have been handled since has been
>haphazard at best. It's almost as if the various writing teams simply
>don't know how to write a married couple that happen to be
>superheroes.
We'll have to agree to disagree about what the real issue is but I do
agree that they have been poorly handled since...and DC (and Marvel,
for that matter) obviously don't know how to write married heroes even
when they aren't married to other heroes...there are very few examples
of characters who have managed to stay married long term in the DC or
Marvel Universe...there is always divorce, death, deals with the
devil, etc...Reed and Sue Richards are the only exception I can think
of (and they constantly play at splitting them up too)...I mean, do
any of us seriously think Lois and Superman will stay married for
good? At some point, they will undo it and revert to the classic love
triangle...I don't want it to happen but I'm certain that it
will...and this is another reason why marrying off GA and BC was a
mistake...it's only a matter of time before a writer wants to play the
Ollie womanizer card again and they either break up or BC ends up
looking even more pathetic than she did for taking him back the last
time...hell, they're already toying with that idea with Ollie's
stalker chick in the book now.
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Your tier system needs some serious work.
>
>I'm all ears, dear.
Well, for starters, there is no way Jason Todd deserves to be in the
2nd tier.
>The point was that *all* of the higher tier DC superheroes have died
>(and indeed may have come back to life).
This comes mostly from DC's obssession with legacy/replacements...and
the resurrections come mainly from the fact that most of the
legacy/replacements suck...also, deaths and resurrections of major
characters make great fodder for the big "events" DC and Marvel are
both obssessed with these days.
>I know death means next to nothing in comics, but I hadn't realised
>(until I compiled that list) that *all* of the characters that matter
>had died (and perhaps got better).
>
>Can the same be said of all of Marvels majors? (I don't really read
>Marvel so I wouldn't know.)
It's not as common at Marvel because Marvel doesn't do as many of the
legacy/replacements (although that seems to be picking up in recent
years)...most of them have had "in-story deaths" (meaning they died
and came back all in one story) but only a handfull have died and
stayed dead for any serious length of time (Cap and Thor, for
instance).
ri
and then they got better.
grinningdemon
Of course...everyone in comics gets better.
Marty
grinningdemon wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:58:20 -0800 (PST), Marty
> <killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Your tier system needs some serious work.
> >
> >I'm all ears, dear.
>
> Well, for starters, there is no way Jason Todd deserves to be in the
> 2nd tier.
I'd have to agree, I meant that to be Robin - Dick Grayson. But
obviously he's never died. Then just filled in a Robins name who had
died.
*As if* Jason Todd could *ever* be a a 2nd tier character!!
Otherwise I'm happy with my tiers.
> It's not as common at Marvel because Marvel doesn't do as many of the
> legacy/replacements (although that seems to be picking up in recent
> years)...most of them have had "in-story deaths" (meaning they died
> and came back all in one story) but only a handfull have died and
> stayed dead for any serious length of time (Cap and Thor, for
> instance).
They did kick off the whole replacement hero thing for a while back in
the 90's non (which seems to be experiencing a bit of a revival right
now)?
Iron Man - War Machine
Thor - Thunderstrike
Captain America - US Agent
etc.
which led to:
Superman - Steel/Eradicator/Cyborg/Superboy
Batman - Azrael
WW - Artemis
But yes, I guess there is no entrenched legacy heroes at Marvel,
perhaps because it had its heyday in the SA, while DC had to reinvent
their GA heroes. Perhaps creating the idea of a legacy.
Marvel treat most all their main characters how DC treat their trinity
(& J'onn & Cap Marvel I guess). Perhaps that is what makes them more
marketable as a brand? There really is only one secret identity
associated with Captain America, Spiderman, Iron Man, Hulk, Punisher,
Thor (does he even have one anymore?)...etc
The same can't be said for Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman,
Hawkman, Robin...
I gues this is the motivation behind all the SA characters coming back
to life.
Branding.
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>grinningdemon wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:58:20 -0800 (PST), Marty
>> <killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Your tier system needs some serious work.
>> >
>> >I'm all ears, dear.
>>
>> Well, for starters, there is no way Jason Todd deserves to be in the
>> 2nd tier.
>
>I'd have to agree, I meant that to be Robin - Dick Grayson. But
>obviously he's never died. Then just filled in a Robins name who had
>died.
He almost died in Infinite Crisis...and, give them time, he'll
probably be knocked off when Batman comes back.
>*As if* Jason Todd could *ever* be a a 2nd tier character!!
>
>Otherwise I'm happy with my tiers.
I think Green Arrow and Aquaman deserve to be higher on the list...and
I definitely think Kyle Rayner deserves a higher spot than the
teenagers like Conner and Bart.
>> It's not as common at Marvel because Marvel doesn't do as many of the
>> legacy/replacements (although that seems to be picking up in recent
>> years)...most of them have had "in-story deaths" (meaning they died
>> and came back all in one story) but only a handfull have died and
>> stayed dead for any serious length of time (Cap and Thor, for
>> instance).
>
>They did kick off the whole replacement hero thing for a while back in
>the 90's non (which seems to be experiencing a bit of a revival right
>now)?
>
>Iron Man - War Machine
>Thor - Thunderstrike
>Captain America - US Agent
>etc.
It's nothing compared to the dozens of replacements that DC has
done...just look at the JSA roster right now, nearly every member is a
replacement...as is the entire Freedom Fighters line-up other than
Uncle Sam.
>which led to:
>
>Superman - Steel/Eradicator/Cyborg/Superboy
>Batman - Azrael
>WW - Artemis
>
>But yes, I guess there is no entrenched legacy heroes at Marvel,
>perhaps because it had its heyday in the SA, while DC had to reinvent
>their GA heroes. Perhaps creating the idea of a legacy.
Right...DC has more of a sense of history with all the different
generations of heroes...this lends itself to the legacy bit...but, in
my opinion, DC is totally out of control with it now.
>Marvel treat most all their main characters how DC treat their trinity
>(& J'onn & Cap Marvel I guess).
And yet all of these DC characters you mention have been replaced at
one point or other (except J'onn)...most more than once...and 3 of
them as we speak.
Perhaps that is what makes them more
>marketable as a brand? There really is only one secret identity
>associated with Captain America, Spiderman, Iron Man, Hulk, Punisher,
>Thor (does he even have one anymore?)...etc
Thor is Donald Blake...but it's actually an entirely seperate person
who is merged with Thor...not really a secret ID.
>The same can't be said for Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman,
>Hawkman, Robin...
>
>I gues this is the motivation behind all the SA characters coming back
>to life.
Deaths and resurrections make great "events"...that's the main
motivation.
Marty
> I think Green Arrow and Aquaman deserve to be higher on the list...and
> I definitely think Kyle Rayner deserves a higher spot than the
> teenagers like Conner and Bart.
I've only escalated Barry and Hal to 1.5 due to the current changes in
DC to improve their recognition (I still don't think they're 1st tier
characters). Blackest Night, and Flash: Rebith are projects that are
of a much higher profile than they've ever seen. Normally I'd place
them as 2nd tier characters.
Sure the time for Green Arrow and Aquaman to become better known is
approaching, but it's not here yet. They are probably the most obvious
choices (and so top of the 2nd tier) to push the current Big Five into
a new Big Seven, whenever that happens, however, I doubt GA and
Aquaman have anything close to the recognition factor that GL and
Flash currently have.
Yes, Aquaman has a bit of a following from the cartoon and GA had a
bit of attention with Kevin Smith, but it's not enough. Ask me again,
after the GA film comes out and DC creates some storyline around Olly
(perhaps Dinah too) to push him centre stage.
Kyle, I don't know, I like Kyle, and he'll probably be back, but if
you have a principle GL, it isn't him. He won't be in the cartoons
anymore, he won't be in the film, he's almost a supporting character.
I'd rather he weren't but that's the only way I can translate DC's
actions. I didn't ask for either Hal or Barry back.
> It's nothing compared to the dozens of replacements that DC has
> done...just look at the JSA roster right now, nearly every member is a
> replacement...as is the entire Freedom Fighters line-up other than
> Uncle Sam.
Agreed, but the replacements in the 90's (apart from GL perhaps)
weren't legacy heroes, they were just temporary gimmicks. We knew the
originals would come back. With DC's legacy heroes we're meant to
think they are permanent replacements.
> Right...DC has more of a sense of history with all the different
> generations of heroes...this lends itself to the legacy bit...but, in
> my opinion, DC is totally out of control with it now.
I think they realise this, that they have diluted their "hero" brand
by having multiple heroes carry the same mantle. Which is why I think
DiDios plan is to bring back the more recognisable versions of GL,
> >Marvel treat most all their main characters how DC treat their trinity
> >(& J'onn & Cap Marvel I guess).
>
> And yet all of these DC characters you mention have been replaced at
> one point or other (except J'onn)...most more than once...and 3 of
> them as we speak.
There is a difference between being replaced by a gimmick hero
(Azrael, Thunderstrike) than by a legacy hero (Wally, Kyle). Marvel
has no real legacy heroes, DC has tons.
While it's more of a combination of the two above scenarios we know
Dick being Batman will not stick forever, just as we now know that
Tempest (if he comes back), Troia, Red Arrow and even Wally will never
really replace their mentors.
> Deaths and resurrections make great "events"...that's the main
> motivation.
Well they do, but that's short term. I think in the grand scheme of
things DiDio is trying to firmly associate Green Lantern with Hal
Jordan and Flash with Barry Allen. Not only does he get some news out
of it (or an event) but he then starts to build this brand again. I
think Hal and Barry are the names that non-comic readers would more
likely associate associate with those mantles. Just as non comics
readers would associate Aquaman with Arthur Curry and Green Arrow with
Oliver Queen.
Of course this current thinking will only last as long as DiDio's
regime lasts. Or perhaps by how good a job he does.
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>grinningdemon wrote:
>
>> I think Green Arrow and Aquaman deserve to be higher on the list...and
>> I definitely think Kyle Rayner deserves a higher spot than the
>> teenagers like Conner and Bart.
>
>I've only escalated Barry and Hal to 1.5 due to the current changes in
>DC to improve their recognition (I still don't think they're 1st tier
>characters). Blackest Night, and Flash: Rebith are projects that are
>of a much higher profile than they've ever seen. Normally I'd place
>them as 2nd tier characters.
Ah, you're going by CURRENT importance level...I was thinking more
along the lines of TRADITIONAL importance in the DCU...and, by your
logic, Mera and the Atom ought to rank pretty high right now.
>Sure the time for Green Arrow and Aquaman to become better known is
>approaching, but it's not here yet. They are probably the most obvious
>choices (and so top of the 2nd tier) to push the current Big Five into
>a new Big Seven, whenever that happens, however, I doubt GA and
>Aquaman have anything close to the recognition factor that GL and
>Flash currently have.
I think it's going to be a while before we get a new Big Seven...the
new JLA is all about the replacements.
>Yes, Aquaman has a bit of a following from the cartoon and GA had a
>bit of attention with Kevin Smith, but it's not enough. Ask me again,
>after the GA film comes out and DC creates some storyline around Olly
>(perhaps Dinah too) to push him centre stage.
I highly doubt there will ever be a major event centered around Olly
and Dinah...they've never been that high profile...it just seems to me
that Ollie should be on par with Hal.
>Kyle, I don't know, I like Kyle, and he'll probably be back, but if
>you have a principle GL, it isn't him. He won't be in the cartoons
>anymore, he won't be in the film, he's almost a supporting character.
>I'd rather he weren't but that's the only way I can translate DC's
>actions. I didn't ask for either Hal or Barry back.
I'm glad Barry is back but I sincerely wish Hal had stayed dead...or
that they had takent he same approach with the Hal and Kyle that they
are going to take with Barry and Wally with a split feature series.
>> It's nothing compared to the dozens of replacements that DC has
>> done...just look at the JSA roster right now, nearly every member is a
>> replacement...as is the entire Freedom Fighters line-up other than
>> Uncle Sam.
>
>Agreed, but the replacements in the 90's (apart from GL perhaps)
>weren't legacy heroes, they were just temporary gimmicks. We knew the
>originals would come back. With DC's legacy heroes we're meant to
>think they are permanent replacements.
I don't really make the distinction anymore because it has little or
no bearing on how they are handled and ultimately discarded (outside
of certain rare exceptions)...and it is highly debatable as to which
ones are true legacies or not.
>> Right...DC has more of a sense of history with all the different
>> generations of heroes...this lends itself to the legacy bit...but, in
>> my opinion, DC is totally out of control with it now.
>
>I think they realise this, that they have diluted their "hero" brand
>by having multiple heroes carry the same mantle. Which is why I think
>DiDios plan is to bring back the more recognisable versions of GL,
I've heard this before and I have to say it's total bullshit...yes,
Barry is back but there are more heroes currently running around
calling themselves Flash since his return than EVER before...same goes
for Hal...and, at the same time they are doing this here, look at what
they've done to Batman...and even Superman (to a lesser
extent)...there is no grand plan from Didio to bring the most
recognizable versions of the characters to the forefront and, if there
is, he is failing miserably...I also think it is debatable who the
most recognizable version is at this point...Wally, for instance, has
been Flash for 25 years now...there is a whole generation of fans (at
least one) that have next to no knowledge of Barry.
>> >Marvel treat most all their main characters how DC treat their trinity
>> >(& J'onn & Cap Marvel I guess).
>>
>> And yet all of these DC characters you mention have been replaced at
>> one point or other (except J'onn)...most more than once...and 3 of
>> them as we speak.
>
>There is a difference between being replaced by a gimmick hero
>(Azrael, Thunderstrike) than by a legacy hero (Wally, Kyle). Marvel
>has no real legacy heroes, DC has tons.
Again, I don't really think it's an important distinction to make as
it changes nothing with regard to how the character is handled or how
long they stick around...the more popular characters will always
return and the less popular characters who get replaced are usually
replaced themselves.
That said, Bucky-Cap would have to count as a legacy at
Marvel...probably Black Panther's little sis too.
>While it's more of a combination of the two above scenarios we know
>Dick being Batman will not stick forever, just as we now know that
>Tempest (if he comes back), Troia, Red Arrow and even Wally will never
>really replace their mentors.
Wally nearly did...and that one proabably would have stuck if not for
the "event" mentality and the success of GL Rebirth.
>> Deaths and resurrections make great "events"...that's the main
>> motivation.
>
>Well they do, but that's short term. I think in the grand scheme of
>things DiDio is trying to firmly associate Green Lantern with Hal
>Jordan and Flash with Barry Allen. Not only does he get some news out
>of it (or an event) but he then starts to build this brand again. I
>think Hal and Barry are the names that non-comic readers would more
>likely associate associate with those mantles. Just as non comics
>readers would associate Aquaman with Arthur Curry and Green Arrow with
>Oliver Queen.
I pretty much already addressed this above.
>Of course this current thinking will only last as long as DiDio's
>regime lasts. Or perhaps by how good a job he does.
Didio needs to be fired...he's directly responsible for some of the
worst creative decisions at DC in recent years and he's even started
chasing talent off...I'm pissed that Levitz is getting the boot and
this idiot gets to stay.
Duggy
> Marty wrote:
> Did he die and come back?
In his own series he faked his own death by pulling off a piece of
himself and then getting into a shuttle he knew was rigged to
explode. He "died" but the part was able to reconstruct itself into a
new him.
These things get terribly definitional but, from the perceptive of
outsiders he was dead, but he really wasn't. (FIght amongst yourself
about whether that counts.)
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> I distinctly recall reading that Didio has said that Hyppolyta was
> still the WW of the JSA...which implies that the rest is still in
> continuity.
Implies, but doesn't confirm... which is the problem with half-arsed
reboots.
I'd rather see her as the WWII WW without Time Travel than with...
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:58:20 -0800 (PST), Marty
>
> >> Your tier system needs some serious work.
> >I'm all ears, dear.
> Well, for starters, there is no way Jason Todd deserves to be in the
> 2nd tier.
Robin does. Dick & TIm, IMHO. Jason & Cassie not so much (and both
have come back from the dead).
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
Well, that would really fuck up Wonder Woman's origin...the time
travel bit was never really the focus anyway...it was just an excuse
to put WW back in the JSA...as long as they don't dwell on it, there's
really no reason for a change.
grinningdemon
I think you mean Steph...Cassie is Batgirl...or at least WAS
Batgirl...and she's died and come back too...and, even though you
didn't mention him, I'll just add that Damien doesn't even deserve to
be on any tier at all.
Marty
> Ah, you're going by CURRENT importance level...I was thinking more
> along the lines of TRADITIONAL importance in the DCU...and, by your
> logic, Mera and the Atom ought to rank pretty high right now.
I'm going more along the lines of their recognisability to people
outside of comics. Always hard to gauge. But people will usually get
Green Lantern and Flash after naming the trinity. After that Aquaman,
then Green Arrow.
I guess Smallville has helped? Don't watch it, but one might assume
that it might.
> I highly doubt there will ever be a major event centered around Olly
> and Dinah...they've never been that high profile...it just seems to me
> that Ollie should be on par with Hal.
I concur, but there's a first time for everything. I guess Hal has
some history of being central to events, what with Zero Hour and Final
Night.
So maybe after the big New Krypton vs Earth war next year they could
have a big event about Atlantis or Tritonis or whatever declaring war
on the surface world, Aquaman returns to save the day. Think it's
"bindun", but hey, when has that stopped anything in comics?
> I'm glad Barry is back but I sincerely wish Hal had stayed dead...or
> that they had takent he same approach with the Hal and Kyle that they
> are going to take with Barry and Wally with a split feature series.
I never read it but the GLC book mostly had Kyle as the central
character in that?
Man there are enough speedsters to form their own Speed Force Corps,
no wonder they need two (or is it three? Kid Flash?) books to deal
with all that.
> I don't really make the distinction anymore because it has little or
> no bearing on how they are handled and ultimately discarded (outside
> of certain rare exceptions)...and it is highly debatable as to which
> ones are true legacies or not.
I think the difference is, as I say with with *intent*, but yes,
ultimately as we have recently learned, it's all for naught, since the
status quo ultimately returns.
God, I mean Alan Scott and Jay Garrick are still around... It would be
novel if they just got rid of all the main old JSAers. What, they must
be around...90 years old. :)
> I've heard this before and I have to say it's total bullshit...yes,
> Barry is back but there are more heroes currently running around
> calling themselves Flash since his return than EVER before...same goes
> for Hal...and, at the same time they are doing this here, look at what
> they've done to Batman...and even Superman (to a lesser
> extent)...there is no grand plan from Didio to bring the most
> recognizable versions of the characters to the forefront and, if there
> is, he is failing miserably...I also think it is debatable who the
> most recognizable version is at this point...Wally, for instance, has
> been Flash for 25 years now...there is a whole generation of fans (at
> least one) that have next to no knowledge of Barry.
Look they can temporarily replace Batman, Superman and WW a million
times over, but we all know at the end of the day, the original
characters will return in fact DC knows that everyone knows this. They
can mess around with the trinity becasue they are that entrenched into
the lore.
I do think it's a mistake to bring Barry and Hal back. Wally is the
Flash to me, Hal was always pretty boring, and from what I've seen so
is Barry.
However I think they really do want to make Barry the main Flash
again. It's like they have a status quo indicator and it's been reset
to the start of the Silver Age. Perhaps DC is reinventing itself using
Marvel as a template?
e.g. I'm pretty sure if a Flash film is made in the future, it'll be
with Barry Allen not Wally West. We know the GL film is with Hal.
The success of this is doubtful though. Perhaps DC should just kill
off Alan, Jay and Wally to reinforce the point. They would certainly
gain a regular reader in me if they did! :)
> That said, Bucky-Cap would have to count as a legacy at
> Marvel...probably Black Panther's little sis too.
Hmm, I think legacy could only really apply to a mantle that applied
to an "Age". If I say Golden Age Flash or Silver Age GL you know who I
mean. Captain America will always be Steve Rogers. As I said before
most of Marvels characters aren't legacy they just *are* like the DC
trinity.
Perhaps we're approaching the term "legacy" with largely different
interpretations.
> Didio needs to be fired...he's directly responsible for some of the
> worst creative decisions at DC in recent years and he's even started
> chasing talent off...I'm pissed that Levitz is getting the boot and
> this idiot gets to stay.
Yeah I think I'd have preferred Levitz to stay.
Still DiDio has boosted DC's sales quite a bit of late. I reckon DC
will eclipse Marvels sales this month. Don't think he'll be going
anywhere soon...
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>grinningdemon wrote:
>
>> Ah, you're going by CURRENT importance level...I was thinking more
>> along the lines of TRADITIONAL importance in the DCU...and, by your
>> logic, Mera and the Atom ought to rank pretty high right now.
>
>I'm going more along the lines of their recognisability to people
>outside of comics. Always hard to gauge. But people will usually get
>Green Lantern and Flash after naming the trinity. After that Aquaman,
>then Green Arrow.
People with little knowledge of comics may recognize the names Flash
and Green Lantern (and Aquaman, too) but I doubt any of them could
give their real names.
>I guess Smallville has helped? Don't watch it, but one might assume
>that it might.
It has probably helped with Green Arrow, at least...since he's a
regular on the show.
>> I highly doubt there will ever be a major event centered around Olly
>> and Dinah...they've never been that high profile...it just seems to me
>> that Ollie should be on par with Hal.
>
>I concur, but there's a first time for everything. I guess Hal has
>some history of being central to events, what with Zero Hour and Final
>Night.
It's not really Hal that has been the center of these events so much
as Green Lantern...both of the ones you mention actually featured Kyle
just as prominently...in one, he was fighting Hal...in the other, he
convinced Hal to sacrifice himself...and, even since Hal's return,
Kyle has had a more prominent role in the DC wide events than Hal
(particularly the the lead-in to both Infinite Crisis and Final
Crisis)...that said, the cosmic status of Green Lantern lends itself
to these types of events in a way that street-level heroes just don't
fit...Batman being the exception because he's Batman.
>>So maybe after the big New Krypton vs Earth war next year they could
>have a big event about Atlantis or Tritonis or whatever declaring war
>on the surface world, Aquaman returns to save the day. Think it's
>"bindun", but hey, when has that stopped anything in comics?
I think Aquaman deserves the Rebirth treatment like GL and Flash.
>> I'm glad Barry is back but I sincerely wish Hal had stayed dead...or
>> that they had takent he same approach with the Hal and Kyle that they
>> are going to take with Barry and Wally with a split feature series.
>
>I never read it but the GLC book mostly had Kyle as the central
>character in that?
Kyle and Guy Gardner have been the central characters of GLC and that
book has been better than the main GL book, in my opinion...and I
don't mean that just because I prefer Kyle to Hal.
>Man there are enough speedsters to form their own Speed Force Corps,
>no wonder they need two (or is it three? Kid Flash?) books to deal
>with all that.
There will be two books...one Flash book with Barry in a lead feature
and Wally in a back-up...and Kid Flash.
>> I don't really make the distinction anymore because it has little or
>> no bearing on how they are handled and ultimately discarded (outside
>> of certain rare exceptions)...and it is highly debatable as to which
>> ones are true legacies or not.
>
>I think the difference is, as I say with with *intent*, but yes,
>ultimately as we have recently learned, it's all for naught, since the
>status quo ultimately returns.
>
>God, I mean Alan Scott and Jay Garrick are still around... It would be
>novel if they just got rid of all the main old JSAers. What, they must
>be around...90 years old. :)
Almost all the old JSAers are gone...only a few are still around and I
like that they are...they are great characters and I'd hate to see
them go.
>> I've heard this before and I have to say it's total bullshit...yes,
>> Barry is back but there are more heroes currently running around
>> calling themselves Flash since his return than EVER before...same goes
>> for Hal...and, at the same time they are doing this here, look at what
>> they've done to Batman...and even Superman (to a lesser
>> extent)...there is no grand plan from Didio to bring the most
>> recognizable versions of the characters to the forefront and, if there
>> is, he is failing miserably...I also think it is debatable who the
>> most recognizable version is at this point...Wally, for instance, has
>> been Flash for 25 years now...there is a whole generation of fans (at
>> least one) that have next to no knowledge of Barry.
>
>Look they can temporarily replace Batman, Superman and WW a million
>times over, but we all know at the end of the day, the original
>characters will return in fact DC knows that everyone knows this. They
>can mess around with the trinity becasue they are that entrenched into
>the lore.
But it's counter-intuitive if the point is the get the most
recognizable versions of these characters front and center.
>I do think it's a mistake to bring Barry and Hal back. Wally is the
>Flash to me, Hal was always pretty boring, and from what I've seen so
>is Barry.
I think Barry's return has more potential because, unlike Hal, Barry
has actually been gone and stayed gone a long time...a lot things have
changed in that time and that creates story potential...Hal doesn't
have that...and I agree that he was always pretty boring.
>However I think they really do want to make Barry the main Flash
>again. It's like they have a status quo indicator and it's been reset
>to the start of the Silver Age. Perhaps DC is reinventing itself using
>Marvel as a template?
I don't think they are trying to emulate Marvel (there is far too much
emphasis on the historical and legacy aspects for that) but there is
definitely a movement to bring back a lot of the Silver Age characters
and concepts...and, with few exceptions, I don't like it at all.
>e.g. I'm pretty sure if a Flash film is made in the future, it'll be
>with Barry Allen not Wally West. We know the GL film is with Hal.
It will probably use the Barry name but I imagine it will be something
like the 90s Flash TV show where the character will be a blend of both
Barry and Wally.
>The success of this is doubtful though. Perhaps DC should just kill
>off Alan, Jay and Wally to reinforce the point. They would certainly
>gain a regular reader in me if they did! :)
I think Wally should at least stand down a while...lose his powers or
retire so something to give Barry the spotlight for a while...but Jay
and Alan don't need to go anywhere...Alan, in particular, is his own
type of GL...he's not linked to the GLC at all and rarely appears in
the GL books...he usually keeps to the JSA series...Jay is more tied
in to the other Flashes but I still would like to see him stick
around...but they shouldn't have brought back Max Mercury.
>> That said, Bucky-Cap would have to count as a legacy at
>> Marvel...probably Black Panther's little sis too.
>
>Hmm, I think legacy could only really apply to a mantle that applied
>to an "Age". If I say Golden Age Flash or Silver Age GL you know who I
>mean. Captain America will always be Steve Rogers. As I said before
>most of Marvels characters aren't legacy they just *are* like the DC
>trinity.
That may have been the way the legacy idea started but, there have
been so many in the last decade or so, that "Age" aspect has totally
gone out the window.
>Perhaps we're approaching the term "legacy" with largely different
>interpretations.
Seems so.
>> Didio needs to be fired...he's directly responsible for some of the
>> worst creative decisions at DC in recent years and he's even started
>> chasing talent off...I'm pissed that Levitz is getting the boot and
>> this idiot gets to stay.
>
>Yeah I think I'd have preferred Levitz to stay.
>
>Still DiDio has boosted DC's sales quite a bit of late. I reckon DC
>will eclipse Marvels sales this month. Don't think he'll be going
>anywhere soon...
I'm not sure that Didio deserves the credit for boosting DC's
sales...but, even if he does, it's only happened through this constant
stream of "events" and that can't be maintained forever...eventually,
fans will get sick of it and there will be a backlash (as there was in
the mid 90s)...in fact, I think public opinion is already starting to
turn.
Anlatt the Builder
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:24:41 -0800 (PST), Duggy
>
Sending Hippolyta into the past, having her be a publicly-known Wonder
Woman in WW II, revealing knowledge about Themysicra and the Amazons
to 1940's non-Amazon humans, changing the past in a variety of ways -
THAT "fucked up" Wonder Woman's (Diana's) origin. In ways they never
bothered to explore.
After Hippolyta spent time in the past, what happened years later when
Diana appeared as Wonder Woman?
Diana: "I am Princess Diana of Paradise Island, respresenting my
mother, Queen Hippolyta."
Reporter: "Oh, we've heard of her. Member of the JSA in WW II. Wore an
outfit just like yours. Called herself Wonder Woman."
Diana: "Mom, what do you know about all this?"
Wonder Woman's post-Crisis on Infinite Earths origin and early
stories, as written by George Perez, start to dissolve from there.
grinningdemon
Fair enough...but, everytime they redo an origin to fix problems like
this, they end up making things worse so I'd just assume they leave it
alone.
Duggy
> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:24:41 -0800 (PST),Duggy
> travel bit was never really the focus anyway...it was just an excuse
> to put WW back in the JSA...as long as they don't dwell on it, there's
> really no reason for a change.
The fact that she's the WWII WW already does that, frankly.
Actually, I'd be happy with Diana having been the WWII WW who went
away and came back (Old TV series style.)
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> I think you mean Steph...Cassie is Batgirl...or at least WAS
> Batgirl...and she's died and come back too...and, even though you
> didn't mention him, I'll just add that Damien doesn't even deserve to
> be on any tier at all.
I did mean Steph, you're right. And, yeah, I forgot that Damien
existed...
===
= DUG.
===
OM
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Batman being the exception because he's Batman.
...That's "goddamn Batman", son. :P
grinningdemon
<Black_...@dynamite.org> wrote:
>
>On 20-Nov-2009, Michael <this...@for.rent> wrote:
>
>> > Black Canary - Dinah Lance? she's never died?
>>
>> The Golden Age version (the current one's mother) died. Dunno if she
>> came back.
>
>The Golden Age version died from Cancer and she remained dead! I doubt that
>she'll ever come back to the fold!
It's doubtful...since they retconned BC into two different characters,
the GA version saw very little use or exploration...she was mostly
just a plot device to explain away BC in the JSA...the only
significant plot development with her was when Robinson revealed she
and GA Starman had an affair back in the day but that was well after
the character had already died (although I did like that GA Birds of
Prey flashback issue that Simone did)...I highly doubt anyone would
ever care enough to bring her back but I'm surprised she hasn't shown
up as a black lantern either tormenting her daughter or the JSA.
Michael Wood
"grinningdemon" <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vd5rm55orn2s99cm1...@4ax.com...
BC I had an affair but only after she had died. Wow. Those Canaries are
fiesty. Still she took "till death do us part" pretty seriously.
Michael Wood
grinningdemon
wrote:
The revelation of the affair was well after she had died...the actual
affair happened back in the 50s...just to clarify since recent events
in the DCU make the possibility of having an affair after death all
too real...knowledge of the affair actually made for an interesting
subplot in early Robinson/Johns JSA where there was a sort of sibling
rivalry developing between Dinah and Jack Knight over the whole thing.