Hal Jordan's return...
Clem Clambake
love to have him back without all the crap. But I just don't see how they
can do it. The way he was written during Emerald Twilight, my own feeling
is that he's pretty much irredeemable, what with the whole mass murderer
thing. The only real way they could bring him back and it would work for me
would be to reveal is wasn't Hal at all (i.e. the clone from the Guy
Gardner:Year One storyline), or he was being controlled by an outside force
(i.e. Lord Malvolio). And yet at the same time both of those options seem
like real cop-outs, story-wise. Feh.
I do believe in the concept of redemption, but... you know, there's a limit.
I'm interested in the thoughts of others.
Clem
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
That's the point of him dying and coming back as Spectre. There is no
limit on God's redemption. God forgave so why shouldn't we. But as I
said before, hopefully they don't belabour this too much. I don't need
a year of Claremontian soul-wrangling.
Dan McEwen
news:7ju2i0dsbt9bpkauf...@4ax.com:
> That's the point of him dying and coming back as Spectre. There is no
> limit on God's redemption. God forgave so why shouldn't we. But as I
> said before, hopefully they don't belabour this too much. I don't need
> a year of Claremontian soul-wrangling.
Except that it's been made fairly clear that God had no part in the
Spectre being a spirit of redemption. That was all Hal's doing in an
attempt to redeem himself.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
wrote:
i'm confused. Has it been made clear that The Spectre, the so called
Spirit of the Wrath of God, really has anything to do with God of the
DC universe. Or is he an immensely powerful figure that THINKS he's
associated with God? I don't think I much like the Spectre shown in
the preview. Spectre (with Corrigan) was certainly capable of
compassion...I.E. Last Days of the Justice Society.
BlackJet76
Spirit of the Wrath of God, really has anything to do with God of the
Yes many times
gclap...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Clem_C...@excite.coma (Clem Clambake) wrote:
My only guess is that they'll do an Ollie on him - reveal that he died
before we all thought and had a partial resurrection (as Hal/Spectre gave
to Ollie) that missed a lot of his self-controlling and balancing
personality traits.
CBoldman
>would be to reveal is wasn't Hal at all (i.e. the clone from the Guy
>Gardner:Year One storyline), or he was being controlled by an outside force
>(i.e. Lord Malvolio). And yet at the same time both of those options seem
I wouldn't call it a cop-out to use Lord Malvolio as an
out. That's a plot thread that should have been
addressed anyway, so why ignore it when it's all teed
up and waiting to be played? There's no shame in
taking the more obvious route once in a while.
Hal Shipman
Except in this case, since Day of Judgement, we now have God
explicitly holding Hal Jordan responsible for everything - his tenure
as the Spectre is an opportunity to redeem himself for his actions as
Evil Hal/Parallax. If those actions were really the result of
Malvolio in the ring and God can't catch it, well...
Your other option is that God lied to Hal in order to make him the
Spectre and that's not a route I'd want to go down either.
Hal..
I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
gclap...@cix.compulink.co.uk
h...@bizarrosquiddies.org (Hal Shipman) wrote:
> Your other option is that God lied to Hal in order to make him the
> Spectre
Or 'told him what he knew he needed to hear in order to redeem himself, to
serve a greater purpose'...
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Date: 17/08/04 16:55 GMT Daylight Time
If Hal Ain't Responsible, then what's to redeem?
--
Dave
The Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
Egret: An apology sent by computer.
-Andy Hamilton, I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue
Steven L Cox
Ceannaideach) wrote:
>From: gclap...@cix.compulink.co.uk
>Date: 17/08/04 16:55 GMT Daylight Time
>
>>In article <6k94i0htnvs2srvrt...@4ax.com>,
>>h...@bizarrosquiddies.org (Hal Shipman) wrote:
>>
>>> Your other option is that God lied to Hal in order to make him the
>>> Spectre
>>
>>Or 'told him what he knew he needed to hear in order to redeem himself, to
>>serve a greater purpose'...
>
>If Hal Ain't Responsible, then what's to redeem?
If they pull a stunt and try to make Hal not (or less) responsible for
his actions, regardless of what you think of the situation DC would be
throwing away some great stories. Here they have one of the Big 5 who
went sour, did alot of not-so-nice things, and has slowly been on the
road of redemption. This is a goldmine of storytelling possibilities.
Just the interplay between the DC superhero pantheon and Hal is going
to be fun to watch - the Bruce/Hal interactions should be interesting
for years to come.
The only thing in comics that has came close to this flavor is found
with the Silver Surfer, a noble paladin of a character who had to come
to terms with his role in the extinction of who knows how many
planetary societies. But even in those stories it was ultimately
shown that his soul was mucked with to make him more acceptable of his
role, something I don't wanna see with Hal. He screwed up, show us
his dealing with this. Does he crawl into a hole and whimper about it
for the rest of his (new) life, or does he own up to his actions and
spend the rest of his days working to make up for his errors? There
is the potential for a very noble hero here.
-s-
Daibhid Ceannaideach
Date: 17/08/04 17:47 GMT Daylight Time
>On 17 Aug 2004 15:58:27 GMT, daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid
>Ceannaideach) wrote:
>
>>From: gclap...@cix.compulink.co.uk
>>Date: 17/08/04 16:55 GMT Daylight Time
>>
>>>In article <6k94i0htnvs2srvrt...@4ax.com>,
>>>h...@bizarrosquiddies.org (Hal Shipman) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your other option is that God lied to Hal in order to make him the
>>>> Spectre
>>>
>>>Or 'told him what he knew he needed to hear in order to redeem himself, to
>>>serve a greater purpose'...
>>
>>If Hal Ain't Responsible, then what's to redeem?
>
>If they pull a stunt and try to make Hal not (or less) responsible for
>his actions, regardless of what you think of the situation DC would be
>throwing away some great stories. Here they have one of the Big 5 who
>went sour, did alot of not-so-nice things, and has slowly been on the
>road of redemption. This is a goldmine of storytelling possibilities.
>Just the interplay between the DC superhero pantheon and Hal is going
>to be fun to watch - the Bruce/Hal interactions should be interesting
>for years to come.
I fully agree. In fact I was arguing *against* saying Hal Ain't Responsible,
since this would mean, besides losing all those great stories, that all the
stories we've had on that theme so far have been nonsense. Which strikes me,
even as someone who wasn't thrilled by Emerald Twilight, as very much throwing
the baby out with the bathwater.
Jerry Brewster
"Daibhid Ceannaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040817131716...@mb-m29.aol.com...
Steven L Cox
<Jsb...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
I hear what you're saying, but there's been plenty of examples of good
stories coming out of iffy circumstances and backdrops. Watchmen
based off of lame charlton characters, many good Batman stories after
the hokey tv-inspired era, even using *Cable* for good storytelling in
Kingdom Come.
What Hal was put thru was pretty crappy storytelling. Having the
character come out on the other end even more interesting is still
possible, tho.
-s-
Parallax
Here's my take on it from 6 years ago, I still think it fits.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=360401B1.4592%40prodigyz.net&output=gplain
--
Replace '???????' with 'prodigy' to email me.
Dan McEwen
>>Except that it's been made fairly clear that God had no part in the
>>Spectre being a spirit of redemption. That was all Hal's doing in an
>>attempt to redeem himself.
>
> i'm confused. Has it been made clear that The Spectre, the so called
> Spirit of the Wrath of God, really has anything to do with God of the
> DC universe. Or is he an immensely powerful figure that THINKS he's
> associated with God? I don't think I much like the Spectre shown in
> the preview. Spectre (with Corrigan) was certainly capable of
> compassion...I.E. Last Days of the Justice Society.
It seems to me that the Wrath of God is exactly what its name implies.
That said, I think it was Neil Gaiman who said that just because this
being is "God" doesn't mean the being in question is the actual central
figure of the Judeo-Christian mythology.
Dan McEwen
news:6k94i0htnvs2srvrt...@4ax.com:
> On 17 Aug 2004 13:21:50 GMT, cbol...@aol.comUNSPAM (CBoldman) wrote:
> Except in this case, since Day of Judgement, we now have God
> explicitly holding Hal Jordan responsible for everything - his tenure
> as the Spectre is an opportunity to redeem himself for his actions as
> Evil Hal/Parallax. If those actions were really the result of
> Malvolio in the ring and God can't catch it, well...
>
> Your other option is that God lied to Hal in order to make him the
> Spectre and that's not a route I'd want to go down either.
There are ways around this. Death of the Endless has made it fairly
clear that people are condemned to the fates they believe they
would/should be condemned to. IOW, no one _must_ go to Hell, but people
believe they will so that's what happens. So if Hal is actually
innocent but believes himself to be guilty, God gives him a way to work
things out. Of course, pairing him with the Wrath of God is highly
questionable for someone who wants redemption.
Gregg and Lindy Whitmore
Clem Clambake wrote:
I guess I'm on the other side of the fence. I understood only too well how
someone with the noblest of intentions over the years can do things they never
thought possible. Only after going through hell and back do they even realize
what they've done.
Here is a man that was chosen by an alien race to possess the most powerful
weapon in the universe due to his lack of fear. He goes on to become a hero of
great stature, but almost from the beginning questions his worthiness of this
power. At the same time, he is also shown to be very headstrong and courageous,
almost showing off his new abilities. Traveling with a normal human on a quest
for America, he comes to question everything in his life and that uncertainty
fuels him for several years to follow. He was a test pilot forced into the role
of cosmic police officer. He knew he had the power to do almost anything he
wanted, flaunted it, then had his humanity thrust back in his face. He tried to
be perfect in an imperfect universe. It's really no wonder he crashed as hard
as he did. Towards the end, he began to realize that he wasn't making as large a
difference as he wanted, and that the people who he had obeyed for years were
not the flawless beings he had thought they were.
His biggest failure came with the destruction of Coast City. All of his power
and he couldn't prevent it. Initially he blamed himself, then he lashed out at
the Corps, trying to find solace in recreating Coast City with stolen power from
the Corps. No one would keep him from his goal. He would destroy everything that
had betrayed him in order to undo his his greatest failure. Finally, he absorbed
the power of the battery to become the amped-up Parallax-- a name which means "
--an apparent change in the direction of an object, caused by a change in
observational position that provides a new line of sight--". He had given
himself a new name and a new goal, with the power to do literally anything.
He attempted to reset all the bad things that have happened to him, only to
thwarted by his own friends and comrades. At that point he began to see what he
had done, and finally gave his life to save his world. The hero was dead... long
live the hero! He became entwined in Purgatory because he -- in his own mind --
hadn't redeemed the death and destruction he caused. He had taken too much away
from the universe to go to Heaven, but was too heroic to go to Hell. He offered
himself to be used to house the power of the Spectre, but again forced the power
to subvert to his will, changing from a Angel of Wrath to an Angel of
Redemption. Because, Hal needed to redeem himself and still make the world
right. Finally, in some irony of cosmic fate, he was offered the chance to live
again. To hopefully redeem himself not as a cosmic being or agent of the
presence, but rather as he started out... as a human.
I can see this only too well. I do not want to see Hal-clone stories or
Hal-possessed stories to fix this... I want to see Hal accepting his terrible
actions and trying to become a better man for it. He has much to make up for,
but I too believe in the power of redemption and see nothing but an excellent
future for this character.
Accept the past, do your best in the present and strive for a better future. DC
has a great chance to this with Hal. Hopefully we'll see the excellent fruits
of this strange, wonderful journey.
Gregg
Bruce Grubb
The last line is ironic because Emerald Twilight VIOLATED so much of the
past it was not funny.
Given all the information we had on the Guardians and how the GL rings
worked its hard to understand how Hal was able pull off trashing the GLC.
When you get right down to it the whole Emerald Twilight saga was
stupidity incarnate.
1) The Yalan Gur story showed that the Guardians could change the weakness
of on GL's ring. But the Guardians don't do the obvious and make Hal's
ring weakness green.
2) In the 1993 Trinity two issue crossover the Guardians who live in a
Universe filled with shapeshifters and Superscience just roll over and
cringe when Hal shows them an image of something claiming to be Quarra the
Creator one of their old Gods never thinking for a moment that perhaps she
was a fake.
3) The Guardians never consider the possibility of other peoples
duplicating their GL energy. But it happened twice - the Poglachi and Lord
Malvolio of the green flame's ring (Action #632-#635). In fact Lord
Malvolio's ring was the ring Hal was wearing when he went nuts and is the
ring Kyle now wears. <http://www.glcorps.org/lord_mal.html>
4) The Guardians not knowing Sinestro was playing dictator of a whole
sector, or that there were false Guadians giving out GL ring like Cracker
Jack prizes (with one making a whole -planet- for his personal ammusment),
that Lord Malvolio had made his own GL ring, or dozens of things that make
Hal recreating a city look like small potatoes.
5) Seems that Gathnet forgot to put safeguards in the ring he made for Kyle
(or Lord Malvolio set it up so such safeguards would fail). As a result
Kyle creates what appears to be a 'I want to destroy the universe' nut case
called Oblivion. Turns out as Hal's ring post-Crisis removed his fear
Kyle's removed his bad feelings; guess what Oblivion really was?
6) Post-Crisis is was revealed that Hal was NOT fearless enough for the
ring and so got an emotional lombotomy which he had the ring remove and
spent the rest of the issue terrorified of how own shadow before finally
getting his act together.
7) The Fist of the Guardians (Emerald Dawn II) were created as a more
flexable manner to deal with a GL who was out of control. But for some
strange reason the Guardians never use them to stop Hal.
8) Hal -knows- that GL ring power is NOT cumulative but he still goes and
collects GL rings to get more power.
9) The Guardian's brilliant last ditch idea for stopping Happy Hal was to
bring Sinestro back from the dead. They seem to have forgotten that
Sinestro wanted to destroy to Corp and once he was done with Hal they would
have been next.
Finally and most importantly the Emerald Twilight that was planned and what
we got were totally different things. The Emerald Twilight like the
conclusion to Armegeddon 2001 and the end of the Dark Phoenix saga was an
editorial choice that made no sense. And as with those two sagas this knee
jerk reaction by some clueless editor resulted in huge problems that later
writer tried to clean up but just made more a of a mess out of because the
reworked concept had been flawed because it had been rushed at the last
minute.
The original plot where Hal had to deside which group of Guardians were the
real deal <http://www.glcorps.org/gl-et.html> would have been more in
keeping with Hal's character, explained a lot of inconsitances with the
GLC, and prevent the 'try and fix the mess' that we have been treated to
even since Emerald Twilight than the botch up of a story we -did- get.
Bocephus
"Clem Clambake" <Clem_C...@excite.coma> wrote in message
news:g2eUc.2116$yj3.3...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> You know, I was as annoyed as anyone about what happened to Hal, and I'd
> love to have him back without all the crap. But I just don't see how they
> can do it. The way he was written during Emerald Twilight, my own feeling
> is that he's pretty much irredeemable, what with the whole mass murderer
> thing. The only real way they could bring him back and it would work for
me
> would be to reveal is wasn't Hal at all (i.e. the clone from the Guy
> Gardner:Year One storyline)
That wont work. Hal already knows he did it, everyone knows he did it. Even
the Spectre (which I dont understand either, how can the Spectre inhabit a
DEAD body?) let him know he did it, and if the Spectre doesn't know the
truth then WTF???
, or he was being controlled by an outside force
> (i.e. Lord Malvolio). And yet at the same time both of those options seem
> like real cop-outs, story-wise. Feh.
>
> I do believe in the concept of redemption, but... you know, there's a
limit.
The only ones in need of redemption are the ones who killed off Hal in the
first place.
>
> I'm interested in the thoughts of others.
This brings up some sour thoughts I have on the whole idea of bringing back
Hal.
First off the whole "kill 'em off and make a profit out of it" concept
pisses me off. We already saw it with Superman, now we get it with Hal
Jordan. And how much does anyone want to bet that when he is reincarnated he
will come with an OAN ring already in place? And even when Hal is brought
back, the Gaurdians would be totally f'in stupid to allow him to get his
ring back. But once again bad writing saves the day I guess. Sinestro will
be back too I guess. Hell bring all the dead characters back, do it
RIGHT!!!! DAWN OF THE DEAD, yeah instead of Emerald Dawn we can have DEAD
DAWN!!!! Hal can be an un-dead character! Also why should Hal be re-born and
not all the people he killed? All the Green Lanterns he killed were just as
noble if not more so then Hal. I guess it's ok that all the innocents stay
dead, but bring back Hal by all means...
I say wipe him out, he is HISTORY.
I do not understand wtf DC is thinkin', I mean someone, somewhere should
speak up and say, "this is a BAD idea"...
Sue Dibny will be next; yeah she didn't really die, it was just a cruel joke
to make Ralph mad.
All I can say is thank god for the Vertigo line because DC's standard line
is confusing to say the least.
"Holy Crisis Batman!"
Judge Matt.
Aaron (Brother Head) Moss
>
> I guess I'm on the other side of the fence. I understood only too well how
> someone with the noblest of intentions over the years can do things they never
> thought possible. Only after going through hell and back do they even realize
> what they've done.
>
> << A Wonderful post snipped to save space>>
>
> Accept the past, do your best in the present and strive for a better future. DC
> has a great chance to this with Hal. Hopefully we'll see the excellent fruits
> of this strange, wonderful journey.
>
> Gregg
>
*clap clap clap.
Let me say thank you Gregg. I've felt the same way about the whole ET
story.
Rev. Aaron *Brother Head* Moss
TheBr...@brotherhead.net
**************************************
Visit my website at:
http://brotherhead.net
**************************************
A bisexual is a man who likes girls as well as the next fellow.
Gustavo Wombat
> "Clem Clambake" <Clem_C...@excite.coma> wrote in message
> news:g2eUc.2116$yj3.3...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> > You know, I was as annoyed as anyone about what happened to Hal, and I'd
> > love to have him back without all the crap. But I just don't see how they
> > can do it. The way he was written during Emerald Twilight, my own feeling
> > is that he's pretty much irredeemable, what with the whole mass murderer
> > thing. The only real way they could bring him back and it would work for
> me
> > would be to reveal is wasn't Hal at all (i.e. the clone from the Guy
> > Gardner:Year One storyline)
>
> That wont work. Hal already knows he did it, everyone knows he did it. Even
> the Spectre (which I dont understand either, how can the Spectre inhabit a
> DEAD body?) let him know he did it, and if the Spectre doesn't know the
> truth then WTF???
Hal Jordan hasn't been the Spectre at all, Clone-Hal has?
Not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying...
--Gustavo
Lilith
Wombat) wrote:
Would Whoever-the-Power-May-Be that gave Hal the role of the Spectre
not have enough omniscience to know the difference?
>Not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying...
>--Gustavo
Lilith
Parallax
>
>
> Hal Jordan hasn't been the Spectre at all, Clone-Hal has?
>
> Not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying...
>
Or maybe it was the real Hal, but a clone of the Spectre...
Michael Pastor
Maybe s/he/it doesn't care.
michael j pastor
Gustavo Wombat
Of course, then Clone-Hal would eventually find redemption as the
Spectre, be resurrected, and eventually be killed by the real Hal who
has been hiding in a shack for the past 10 years muttering to the
squirrels about all the horrors done in his name.
And then where would we be?
--Gustavo
ed
> Gustavo Wombat wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hal Jordan hasn't been the Spectre at all, Clone-Hal has?
> >
> > Not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying...
> >
>
> Or maybe it was the real Hal, but a clone of the Spectre...
or maybe...WE are all clones and we never really read any of these stories?
Todd
>You know, I was as annoyed as anyone about what happened to Hal, and I'd
>love to have him back without all the crap. But I just don't see how they
>can do it. The way he was written during Emerald Twilight, my own feeling
>is that he's pretty much irredeemable, what with the whole mass murderer
>thing. The only real way they could bring him back and it would work for me
>would be to reveal is wasn't Hal at all (i.e. the clone from the Guy
>Gardner:Year One storyline), or he was being controlled by an outside force
>(i.e. Lord Malvolio). And yet at the same time both of those options seem
>like real cop-outs, story-wise. Feh.
>
>I do believe in the concept of redemption, but... you know, there's a limit.
>
>I'm interested in the thoughts of others.
I'd be inclined to hypertime the whole Emerald Toilet mess. This is
what happened in the new universe:
Hal decides to self-exile himself from Earth after the destruction of
Coast City. A new ring is given to Kyle, as the prior earth-born
wearers of the ring are not currently fit for duty (Guy's nuts, and
John wasn't much better).
The only Kyle as GL stories which would need to change are the ones
where Kyle is the only GL in the universe. If there's only 3600
sectors in the universe, that leaves a lot of space for each GL to
police. Probably whole galaxies.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:mbgaj0l75ubvf1ni7...@4ax.com:
>...
> The only Kyle as GL stories which would need to change are the
> ones where Kyle is the only GL in the universe. If there's only
> 3600 sectors in the universe, that leaves a lot of space for
> each GL to police. Probably whole galaxies.
Something like 28 million galaxies per sector, assuming they're
divided up evenly. So yeah, you could have an excuse for isolating
a GL. :-)
If I were trying to make a retcon like that work, I'd probably have
the events that replaced Emerald Twilight involve the central power
battery (or the Guardians) being weakened to the point that travel
times were lengthened substantially and instantaneous communication
between sectors became unreliable or impossible. (This could be
tied into the changes in Kyle's ring's capabilities.) You could
easily get a situation in which GLs weren't noticeably less powerful
on a planet by planet basis, but were no longer able to function as
a corps (or even be unable to determine whether there was still a
corps to operate within).
(There's reason to think that Earth is near a sector border-- or
rather, many borders-- given the number of other-sector GLs who've
shown up at relatively nearby stars. The Milky Way may be the
three-dimensional equivalent of Four Corners on the sector map. But
if you want, just have those GLs have been on the other side of
their sectors at the time, and you won't be seeing them soon.)
The problem, of course, is that this still doesn't function to
preserve the many Kyle stories involving the aftermath of ET or his
attempts to restart the corps, and requires tinkering substantially
with his origin. I didn't read his series myself, but those who did
would be annoyed (and I think justly so).
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Michael S. Schiffer
news:Xns95576177F528...@130.133.1.4:
>...
> (There's reason to think that Earth is near a sector border-- or
> rather, many borders-- given the number of other-sector GLs
> who've shown up at relatively nearby stars. The Milky Way may
> be the three-dimensional equivalent of Four Corners on the
> sector map.
Following up to my own post: this may suggest that the Guardians
noticed that Earth was something of a nexus for important events:
"Well then, why don't we garrison the planet with a number of
agents?" "That would be something of a giveaway, don't you think?
Also, such a large offworld presence would interfere with their
natural development. I am already worried about the proximity of
Krypton and Daxam. If they ever colonized--" "Agreed. But if we
modified the proposed sector map thus, we can ensure that there will
be a dozen Green Lanterns in easy reach in the event of an emergency.
And once human civilization has been exposed to metanormal abilities
for a few decades or centuries, we can revisit that garrison idea."