10 recent death that you think will stick.
Duggy
This article has been discussed before, because it's one of those
"first 10 things that fit the category and come to mind" lists that
are meaningless and all too common in the blogsphere.
Half the list is deaths too recent to even consider "stay dead" yet,
many of the others are in the "stupid deaths so I can make witty snide
comments."
So, let's do a proper list... allowing for the fact that even the most
unlikely returns happen, which recent ones do you expect to stick?
===
= DUG.
===
Joe
The only ones that will ever stick are villians or secondary
characters that are not very popular. When characters in those
categories are killed they never bring them back because there is no
reason to. For a long time Bucky was on the list of characters that
was killed and never brought back. A popular character will never be
in the kill file. Because there is money to be made.
Michael
Until Final Crisis I thought Barry Allen would be a death that stuck.
Michael
Joe
wrote:
My thinking was that all major heroes would return some day. it is a
money think. Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
Michael
I was thinking that Wally carries on the franchise well eough that they
didn't need to bring Barry back.
Michael
newto...@mypacks.net
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 05:37:03 -0800, Michael <thissp...@for.rent>
That's a gimmick that I actually don't think will stick. But maybe.
I think Max Lord, Pa Kent, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Bill Foster, Ted
Kord and Vic Sage will all stay dead.
The Wizard Shazam is dead too, I guess. But he could easily come back
(if he hasn't already). magic and all that.
Is Katma Tui still dead?
Joe
wrote:
Uncle Ben has been brought back several times. But he is a minor
character that isnt money producing so no one cares if he stays dead.
Pa Kent will be back for sure. 100% on that one. He was dead in the
past and was resurrected with the different Superman. For certain
when they re do Supes as they always do, Pa will be back.
Gwen Stacy has also been back several times. Although in different
timelines and as a clone but nonetheless back. Ted Kord. Yes he will
be back also. Certain on that one. Could be a money thing. dont kow
who Vic Sage is.
YKW (ad hoc)
news:4rc4i4lfri95bd9a0...@4ax.com:
> Ted Kord. Yes he will
> be back also. Certain on that one. Could be a money thing. dont kow
> who Vic Sage is.
Ted isn't even necessarily dead at the =moment=; IIRC, his departure from
his BOOSTER GOLD arc having him jump out after the Black Beetle rather than
simply going back to get gakked by Max Lord.
Vic Sage was The Question. I'm pretty sure the Renee Montoya version is
here to stay for quite a spell.
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when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
-- The One, 14 Oct 08
Joe Sewell
<ade43a04-e803-4980...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
1. Kal-L (dang it!)
2. Sue Dibny (dang it 2!)
3. the Ray Palmer of Earth-51
4. *anybody* on Earth-51 (the original version, that is)
Since it's obvious I'm stretching farther than Mr. Fantastic, Ralph
Dibny, and Eel O'Brien put together, I'll stop there. :)
--
Once he was a simple Continuity Janitor, working for the Legion of Wanking
Fanboys. Then a bolt of British arrogance strikes!
Ordinary Joe is transformed into ... THE ANTI-MORRISON!
YKW (ad hoc)
E419EC.220...@isp5.newshosting.com:
> In article
> <ade43a04-e803-4980...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
> Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> http://www.toplessrobot.com/2008/09/the_10
_people_who_have_stayed_dea...
>>
>> This article has been discussed before, because it's one of those
>> "first 10 things that fit the category and come to mind" lists that
>> are meaningless and all too common in the blogsphere.
>>
>> Half the list is deaths too recent to even consider "stay dead" yet,
>> many of the others are in the "stupid deaths so I can make witty snide
>> comments."
>>
>> So, let's do a proper list... allowing for the fact that even the most
>> unlikely returns happen, which recent ones do you expect to stick?
>
> 1. Kal-L (dang it!)
> 2. Sue Dibny (dang it 2!)
> 3. the Ray Palmer of Earth-51
> 4. *anybody* on Earth-51 (the original version, that is)
>
> Since it's obvious I'm stretching farther than Mr. Fantastic, Ralph
> Dibny, and Eel O'Brien put together, I'll stop there. :)
>
The Sue Dibny death has already kinda-sorta come unstuck, though.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Nov 17, 1:17 pm, Joe <skyking...@comcast.net> wrote:
Yes, she is...but there is now another female GL from Korugar named
Soranik Natu.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Vic Sage is the Question and he died during 52...I'd say there's at
least a small chance he will return but only if they decide to start
over and reboot the character...and I agree with you about Pa Kent
eventually returning when they retcon Superman's history again...as to
the rest, I don't think temporary returns should count as, in most
cases, it's obvious that they are only meant to be temporary
(especially when many of them involve clones, alternate realities, and
other such cheats that almost never stick)...I highly doubt anyone
else from the list will be back in any true capacity.
OM
wrote:
>Uncle Ben has been brought back several times.
...And he still has his career selling converted rice.
OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
OM
wrote:
>dont kow who Vic Sage is.
...The Question.
Michael
> Joe Sewell <ultr...@spamcop.net> wrote in news:ultrajoe-
> E419EC.220...@isp5.newshosting.com:
>
>
>>In article
>><ade43a04-e803-4980...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
>> Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.toplessrobot.com/2008/09/the_10
>
> _people_who_have_stayed_dea...
>
>>>This article has been discussed before, because it's one of those
>>>"first 10 things that fit the category and come to mind" lists that
>>>are meaningless and all too common in the blogsphere.
>>>
>>>Half the list is deaths too recent to even consider "stay dead" yet,
>>>many of the others are in the "stupid deaths so I can make witty snide
>>>comments."
>>>
>>>So, let's do a proper list... allowing for the fact that even the most
>>>unlikely returns happen, which recent ones do you expect to stick?
>>
>>1. Kal-L (dang it!)
>>2. Sue Dibny (dang it 2!)
>>3. the Ray Palmer of Earth-51
>>4. *anybody* on Earth-51 (the original version, that is)
>>
>>Since it's obvious I'm stretching farther than Mr. Fantastic, Ralph
>>Dibny, and Eel O'Brien put together, I'll stop there. :)
>>
>
>
> The Sue Dibny death has already kinda-sorta come unstuck, though.
Isn't she back as a ghost? That's still dead.
I'll add:
Ralph Dibny
everyone on Earth-15
Wesley Dodds
Deadman
Kole
Michael
newto...@mypacks.net
>
> Uncle Ben has been brought back several times.
Really? For real, in continuity? in the 616? When?
But he is a minor
> character that isnt money producing so no one cares if he stays dead.
He's only minor like Bruce Wayne's parents are minor. Or the entire
planet of Krypton.
> Pa Kent will be back for sure. 100% on that one. He was dead in the
> past and was resurrected with the different Superman. For certain
> when they re do Supes as they always do, Pa will be back.
I don't think a reboot counts, but maybe I'm splitting hairs. In a
reboot, he never died, so he's not "back." I mean, they could reboot
Superman and start the story before Krypton 'splodes. Does that mean
Jor-el is "back." I guess if they reboot and Pa Kent is back there's
no guarantee that he'll die again, but still.
>
> Gwen Stacy has also been back several times. Although in different
> timelines and as a clone but nonetheless back.
Yeah, that don't count.
Ted Kord. Yes he will
> be back also. Certain on that one. Could be a money thing.
He might, I'll grant, though it wuld be more of a nostalgia thing. He
was never a big moneymaker.
newto...@mypacks.net
wrote:
>
> >Is Katma Tui still dead?
>
> Yes, she is...but there is now another female GL from Korugar named
> Soranik Natu.
Well, yeah, I know about Natu, which is why I was wondering about
Katma Tui. I just read this old story where she was married to John
Stewart and no longer a GL and was killed by a Star Sapphire-possessed
Carol Ferris, but it was in a backup Action Comics story in the 80's
so i didn't know if it was still in continuity.
Mark Evans
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:09:33 -0800 (PST), newton58...@mypacks.net
Gasp! you question the return of Vic Sage?
Mark Evans
Hal Shipman
wrote:
> Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
But based on Flash sales before his death, Barry Allen doesn't. So,
it's not a long-term strategy that makes sense on the surface.
Hal.
I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
YKW (ad hoc)
news:2m86i41oif45c9l4d...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:17:46 -0800, Joe <skyki...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>
> But based on Flash sales before his death, Barry Allen doesn't. So,
> it's not a long-term strategy that makes sense on the surface.
>
> Hal.
I'd be wary of drawing conclusions based on sales nearly a quarter-
century ago during a drawn-out storyline that nearly no one admits to
liking (personally, I loved the story, but Infantino was just phoning it
in by then, to the point where not even Denys Cowan was able to make much
sense out of his doodles).
grinningdemon
<hal.ship...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:17:46 -0800, Joe <skyki...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>
>But based on Flash sales before his death, Barry Allen doesn't. So,
>it's not a long-term strategy that makes sense on the surface.
Tell that to Hal Jordan...he never would have been turned into
Parallax or killed off if his book was selling well...and yet here he
is.
grinningdemon
wrote:
It's still in continuity...the GL feature in Action Comics Weekly was,
as far as I know, the only source of GL stories at that time...it
filled the gap between the end of Hal's first series and the start of
the 2nd that Kyle eventually took over.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>> Uncle Ben has been brought back several times.
>
>Really? For real, in continuity? in the 616? When?
Well, there was a truly awful story in Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman
about an Evil Uncle Ben from an alternate earth who was brought over
to 616 and stuck around for over a year before they ultimately killed
him off (I think)...and he was alive in House of M...other than that,
I think he's only appeared in flashback or as a ghost/hallucination.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>> The Sue Dibny death has already kinda-sorta come unstuck, though.
>
>Isn't she back as a ghost? That's still dead.
Technically, yes...but she has returned and is still around, along
with Ralph.
OM
wrote:
>I'd be wary of drawing conclusions based on sales nearly a quarter-
>century ago during a drawn-out storyline that nearly no one admits to
>liking (personally, I loved the story, but Infantino was just phoning it
>in by then, to the point where not even Denys Cowan was able to make much
>sense out of his doodles).
...The more I delve into what happened with that arc, the more I'm
learning that the reason the book went on about a year longer than it
was supposed to was more towards Carmine's few remaining friends at DC
keeping him employed until his pension came through than it was timing
the ending to dovetail into CoIE. By the time "Flash" came to an end
with #350, most of the newer DC staffers had become aware of how
Carmine had screwed over a lot of their predecessors - especially Jack
Kirby - and made no bones about not wanting to work with him in any
way, shape or form. I do know one Marvel writer wanted to do a "Marvel
Fanfare" that Fred Hembeck suggested where Carmine did the art on a
Mr. Fantastic and Quicksilver team-up, but said writer never could get
Jim Shooter to approve it because - you guessed it - Carmine and
Shooter didn't get along.
It's this sort of behind closed doors animosity that makes it not
surprising that we hear of editors and writers and artists getting
into drunken brawls at SDCC every year. Sadly, none of them involve
Harlan Ellison getting his head handed to him...:-(
OM
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Tell that to Hal Jordan...he never would have been turned into
>Parallax or killed off if his book was selling well...and yet here he
>is.
...Sales were not anywhere near cancellation point for GL when
"Emerald Turdball" was flushed upon us. That was the result of bozos
like Priest and Marz hitting the editors with a one-two "let's shake
things up for the fuck of it!" punch and stuff women in freezers just
to really screw with things even more.
...And besides, if Crab Face Guy had been worth a shit, then they'd
never have brouoght back Hal as GL. And had Waid not first fucked up
Bart and then clusterfucked bringing Wally and the family back, we
probably wouldn't *need* Barry Allen back. But again, we're talking
about Mark Waid, who could fuck up an issue of "Casper, the Friendly
Ghost" with his eyes closed, and did so to the Legion *twice* with his
eyes open. The longer he's exiled to BOOM! the better off we'll be.
OM
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>Well, yeah, I know about Natu, which is why I was wondering about
>>Katma Tui. I just read this old story where she was married to John
>>Stewart and no longer a GL and was killed by a Star Sapphire-possessed
>>Carol Ferris, but it was in a backup Action Comics story in the 80's
>>so i didn't know if it was still in continuity.
...During "Mosaic", John brought Kat back through the power of the
rings. When the Mosaic world fell apart, Kat went back to being a
spirit and went on to her form of heaven. Abin Sur was stuck in
Earth's heaven, but wanted to go home. He went the same route -
through a sacrificial flame back to Korugar - and for all we know
they're both waiting for Sinsetro to show up so they can kick him on
his way to thei version of hell :-)
newto...@mypacks.net
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:57:19 GMT, grinningdemon
>
> >>Well, yeah, I know about Natu, which is why I was wondering about
> >>Katma Tui. I just read this old story where she was married to John
> >>Stewart and no longer a GL and was killed by a Star Sapphire-possessed
> >>Carol Ferris, but it was in a backup Action Comics story in the 80's
> >>so i didn't know if it was still in continuity.
>
> ...During "Mosaic", John brought Kat back through the power of the
> rings. When the Mosaic world fell apart, Kat went back to being a
> spirit and went on to her form of heaven. Abin Sur was stuck in
> Earth's heaven, but wanted to go home. He went the same route -
> through a sacrificial flame back to Korugar - and for all we know
> they're both waiting for Sinsetro to show up so they can kick him on
> his way to thei version of hell :-)
>
Cool, thanks!
Is John married now? I never read any mention of a family but in the
altered reality in Trinity he's got a family (of Earthlings). Didn't
know if that was part of the altered reality or not...
Michael
Have they been used since the end of 52?
I wonder what'll happen when they find out Dr. Light is dead?
Michael
Hal Shipman
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
That's why I qualified it as "on the surface." The assertion was
bluntly, "Barry Allen coming back sells comics." At this point, we
don't know that at all.
But we do know that there's nothing intrinsic about Barry as a
character that necessarily sells - that we did see 25 years ago.
In the case of Hal Jordan, a huge factor in his resurrection was that
Geoff Johns wanted to bring him back as a GL. It's Geoff Johns and
his concept that is selling, not necessarily Jordan.
Note that Hal Jordan, the character, didn't sell as the Spectre, no
matter how hard they pushed him.
(Not that) Hal.
Hal Shipman
wrote:
>Hal Shipman <hal.ship...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:2m86i41oif45c9l4d...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:17:46 -0800, Joe <skyki...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>>
>> But based on Flash sales before his death, Barry Allen doesn't. So,
>> it's not a long-term strategy that makes sense on the surface.
>>
>> Hal.
>
>I'd be wary of drawing conclusions based on sales nearly a quarter-
>century ago during a drawn-out storyline that nearly no one admits to
>liking (personally, I loved the story, but Infantino was just phoning it
>in by then, to the point where not even Denys Cowan was able to make much
>sense out of his doodles).
True, but as I point out in my other response, we don't know yet if
there's anything about Barry as a character per se that will sell.
But that was a horrible, horrible run for the book and that poor craft
would have killed any character, I bet.
newto...@mypacks.net
> grinningdemon wrote:
> > wrote:
>
> >>>The Sue Dibny death has already kinda-sorta come unstuck, though.
>
> >>Isn't she back as a ghost? That's still dead.
>
> > Technically, yes...but she has returned and is still around, along
> > with Ralph.
>
> Have they been used since the end of 52?
>
> I wonder what'll happen when they find out Dr. Light is dead?
>
> Michael
Yes, they were used in an issue of Batman and the Outsiders with
powers like that of Deadman - they possessed living bodies and
controlled them. And that's a good question about Dr. Light. If I were
Sue I would have Possessed, say, Gorilla Grodd and then paid Dr. Light
back the favor, if you know what I mean. THAT would have made for a
satisfying comics experience!! At the very least, though, they should
have been the ones to give him his comeuppance, not the Spectre in
some tie-in to another series. It wasn't done with much ceremony, I
must say.
Michael
OM
wrote:
>Yes, they were used in an issue of Batman and the Outsiders with
>powers like that of Deadman - they possessed living bodies and
>controlled them. And that's a good question about Dr. Light. If I were
>Sue I would have Possessed, say, Gorilla Grodd and then paid Dr. Light
>back the favor, if you know what I mean. THAT would have made for a
>satisfying comics experience!!
...One of the last good "Hellblazer" arcs involved a mafia don getting
impregnated by a demon with a three-foot cock. WHen he gave birth, one
of the first things the newborn demon did was demonstrate to a child
molester in the don's employ just what happens to sodomites who are
sent to Hell. *That* is what should have happened to Arthur Light, not
turning him into a candle(*).
(*) However, if Jim Aparo had been alive to draw it, an exception
would have gladly been made.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:55:31 GMT, grinningdemon
><grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Tell that to Hal Jordan...he never would have been turned into
>>Parallax or killed off if his book was selling well...and yet here he
>>is.
>
>...Sales were not anywhere near cancellation point for GL when
>"Emerald Turdball" was flushed upon us. That was the result of bozos
>like Priest and Marz hitting the editors with a one-two "let's shake
>things up for the fuck of it!" punch and stuff women in freezers just
>to really screw with things even more.
You really like your nicknames, don't you? Hal's book may not have
been facing cancellation (yet) but it certainly wasn't doing all that
well or I doubt they would have cancelled the two other GL series at
the time and made such a drastic change to the main book...while I
didn't care for Emerald Twilight itself, I did like the change in
direction that accompanied it...still do.
>
>...And besides, if Crab Face Guy had been worth a shit, then they'd
>never have brouoght back Hal as GL.
That's hardly fair...a great many GL fans never gave Kyle a chance
because they were so pissed off about Emerald Twilight...and people
did start to come around to Kyle once he got some better writers
handling him in JLA and even in his own title...Hal's return was
totally unnecessary...and, if Kyle were so unpopular, his run wouldn't
have last so long and they would have just killed him off or dropped
him when Hal came back.
And had Waid not first fucked up
>Bart and then clusterfucked bringing Wally and the family back, we
>probably wouldn't *need* Barry Allen back. But again, we're talking
>about Mark Waid, who could fuck up an issue of "Casper, the Friendly
>Ghost" with his eyes closed, and did so to the Legion *twice* with his
>eyes open. The longer he's exiled to BOOM! the better off we'll be.
>
>
> OM
The return of long dead, important characters are always a big sales
draw...even when their return is controversial...Ollie, Hal,
Barry...even Bucky or Jason Todd...it gets readers' attention and
that, more than any other reason, is why they do it...oh, and Final
Crisis has been in the works almost since Infinite Crisis ended so the
decision to bring Barry back was probably already made before Waid
returned to Flash...and exactly what did he have to do with fucking up
Bart? As far as I know, he hasn't written the character at all since
his first Flash run ended...and let's not forget who created the
character in the first place.
grinningdemon
wrote:
They've appeared a few times in Batman & the Outsiders and they hosted
and co-stared in the DC Halloween Special that came out last month.
grinningdemon
<hal.ship...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:55:31 GMT, grinningdemon
><grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:18:27 -0600, Hal Shipman
>><hal.ship...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:17:46 -0800, Joe <skyki...@comcast.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>>>
>>>But based on Flash sales before his death, Barry Allen doesn't. So,
>>>it's not a long-term strategy that makes sense on the surface.
>>
>>Tell that to Hal Jordan...he never would have been turned into
>>Parallax or killed off if his book was selling well...and yet here he
>>is.
>
>That's why I qualified it as "on the surface." The assertion was
>bluntly, "Barry Allen coming back sells comics." At this point, we
>don't know that at all.
>
>But we do know that there's nothing intrinsic about Barry as a
>character that necessarily sells - that we did see 25 years ago.
>
>In the case of Hal Jordan, a huge factor in his resurrection was that
>Geoff Johns wanted to bring him back as a GL. It's Geoff Johns and
>his concept that is selling, not necessarily Jordan.
>
>Note that Hal Jordan, the character, didn't sell as the Spectre, no
>matter how hard they pushed him.
>
>(Not that) Hal.
The return of any long dead, popular character in a high profile
storyline sells...Hal Jordan as the Spectre didn't work for two
reasons...first, it's not the role fans no him from...second, the
Spectre series focused far too much on the metaphysical to really feel
like a Hal Jordan story...but the Hal Spectre made a number of
prominent guest appearances that did quite well and were good reads.
GL Rebirth would have sold well even if it were a terrible story
because people would have checked it out to see the return of a
beloved character...Barry has been gone a long time and, unlike a lot
of other dead characters (including Hal), he has largely stayed
gone...his high profile return WILL sell just as Hal's return
did...the concept beyond that will decide whether or not Barry
CONTINUES to sell.
Joe Sewell
"YKW (ad hoc)" <Deci...@2012.gov> wrote:
> Joe Sewell <ultr...@spamcop.net> wrote in news:ultrajoe-
> E419EC.220...@isp5.newshosting.com:
>
> > In article
> > <ade43a04-e803-4980...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
> > Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.toplessrobot.com/2008/09/the_10
> _people_who_have_stayed_dea...
> >>
> >> This article has been discussed before, because it's one of those
> >> "first 10 things that fit the category and come to mind" lists that
> >> are meaningless and all too common in the blogsphere.
> >>
> >> Half the list is deaths too recent to even consider "stay dead" yet,
> >> many of the others are in the "stupid deaths so I can make witty snide
> >> comments."
> >>
> >> So, let's do a proper list... allowing for the fact that even the most
> >> unlikely returns happen, which recent ones do you expect to stick?
> >
> > 1. Kal-L (dang it!)
> > 2. Sue Dibny (dang it 2!)
> > 3. the Ray Palmer of Earth-51
> > 4. *anybody* on Earth-51 (the original version, that is)
> >
> > Since it's obvious I'm stretching farther than Mr. Fantastic, Ralph
> > Dibny, and Eel O'Brien put together, I'll stop there. :)
> >
>
> The Sue Dibny death has already kinda-sorta come unstuck, though.
As much as Boston Brand's did.
--
Once he was a simple Continuity Janitor, working for the Legion of Wanking
Fanboys. Then a bolt of British arrogance strikes!
Ordinary Joe is transformed into ... THE ANTI-MORRISON!
Joe Sewell
Michael <this...@for.rent> wrote:
Good catch on Dodds. Kole I'm not so sure about.
I intentionally left Ralph off the list simply because I can see one of
the "angsty" types bringing him back whilst leaving Sue dead.
Michael
IIRC, Wolfman (& Perez?) created her specifically for a death in Crisis
on Infinite Earths. I don't think she's been resurrected, though I
could be wrong.
> I intentionally left Ralph off the list simply because I can see one of
> the "angsty" types bringing him back whilst leaving Sue dead.
And I can see DiDio giving that the thumbs up.
Michael
Michael
Quick addendum. Looks like she was brought back, then retconned to
still be dead.
http://www.titanstower.com/source/whoswho/kole.html#team
Joe Sewell
Michael <this...@for.rent> wrote:
> Joe Sewell wrote:
>
> > Good catch on Dodds. Kole I'm not so sure about.
>
> IIRC, Wolfman (& Perez?) created her specifically for a death in Crisis
> on Infinite Earths. I don't think she's been resurrected, though I
> could be wrong.
I vaguely recall reading that Kole wasn't actually created to die, but I
could be misremembering.
No, she hasn't been resurrected yet. I could see them doing it, though.
Her character was one of those that wasn't significant enough to bring
back now, but her death wasn't significant enough for her to stay dead.
Joe Sewell
Michael <this...@for.rent> wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> > IIRC, Wolfman (& Perez?) created her specifically for a death in Crisis
> > on Infinite Earths. I don't think she's been resurrected, though I
> > could be wrong.
>
> Quick addendum. Looks like she was brought back, then retconned to
> still be dead.
>
> http://www.titanstower.com/source/whoswho/kole.html#team
THAT'S what was tickling the back of my mind as we've been discussing
her!
OM
wrote:
>I vaguely recall reading that Kole wasn't actually created to die, but I
>could be misremembering.
...You are. Wolfman confirmed some months after Perez spilled the
beans that Kole was intended from the start to be "Crisis Fodder" so
that they didn't have to kill any of the regular cast off.
\
Billy Bissette
news:8plei4h9sj9hrh0qd...@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:48:35 -0500, Joe Sewell <ultr...@spamcop.net>
> wrote:
>
>>I vaguely recall reading that Kole wasn't actually created to die, but I
>>could be misremembering.
>
> ...You are. Wolfman confirmed some months after Perez spilled the
> beans that Kole was intended from the start to be "Crisis Fodder" so
> that they didn't have to kill any of the regular cast off.
Nice of them confirm, just in case anyone ever happened to think
the event was supposed to have any real impact.
"We've got to sell the danger of this Crisis. But don't waste
anyone important on it. Don't waste people with any legacy either,
or even anyone recent. Let's just pad the death toll by making up
this new character as fodder."
("Heck, in the unlikely event that Kole becomes wildly popular,
we can just bring her back anyway. Or have another one pop up from
some alternate timeline, future, world, next Crisis, or whatever.")
OM
<bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
>"We've got to sell the danger of this Crisis. But don't waste
>anyone important on it. Don't waste people with any legacy either,
>or even anyone recent. Let's just pad the death toll by making up
>this new character as fodder."
...And that's exactly what they did. George only confirmed it because
every single fan at every single convention made it clear they saw
through the scam all along, and George isn't one to try and pull one
over on his fans. That's why he's a class act.
Raymond Speer
The _Trial of the Flash_ had to be the worst continuing story in
popular fiction. Next to the _Trial of the Flash_, the Dr. Who season
wasted on _Trial of a Time Lord_ was a success!
It all seemed so meaningless. Flash at superspeed grabbed the Reverse
Flash and Zoom's neck was broken. I'm hard put to see negligence there,
and certainly no intent to kill or maim. Yet nobody had any mercy on the
superhero or of the fans who suffered while that endless story rlled on
and on and on . . . . .
OM
wrote:
>It all seemed so meaningless. Flash at superspeed grabbed the Reverse
>Flash and Zoom's neck was broken. I'm hard put to see negligence there,
>and certainly no intent to kill or maim. Yet nobody had any mercy on the
>superhero or of the fans who suffered while that endless story rlled on
>and on and on . . . . .
...The only other legal battle that was as equally pathetic was when
Vance Astrovik was put on trial for killing his abusive father when he
deservedly TK'd him through the Astrovik house in "New Warriors" v1.
IIRC, there was supposed to be a "hidden reason" Vance got convicted,
as foreshadowed by the evil smirk of the prosecuting attorney bimbo,
but it was never followed up on. A couple of lawyers on rac* at the
time pointed out that even in a kangaroo court the fact that Daddy
Astro was a kid beater would have gotten Vance acquitted considering
how long the abuse had been going on, and the fact that Vance was a
hero finally pushed to the edge.
...Of course, what was even *more* pathetic was that some issues
later, whoever was writing the book tried to make Daddy Astro more
"sympathetic" in that the reason he was beating up his family was that
he was upset over having to dump his childhood homosexual lover and
become a good little heterosexual as his own abusive father demanded.
Needless to say, quite a few gay readers too serious offense to that
one, which was par for the course at Marvel in those days.
Michael
> The _Trial of the Flash_ had to be the worst continuing story in
> popular fiction. Next to the _Trial of the Flash_, the Dr. Who season
> wasted on _Trial of a Time Lord_ was a success!
OUCH!
Michael
John Duncan Yoyo
<hal.ship...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:07:50 GMT, "YKW (ad hoc)" <Deci...@2012.gov>
>wrote:
>
>>Hal Shipman <hal.ship...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:2m86i41oif45c9l4d...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:17:46 -0800, Joe <skyki...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>>>
>>> But based on Flash sales before his death, Barry Allen doesn't. So,
>>> it's not a long-term strategy that makes sense on the surface.
>>>
>>> Hal.
>>
>>I'd be wary of drawing conclusions based on sales nearly a quarter-
>>century ago during a drawn-out storyline that nearly no one admits to
>>liking (personally, I loved the story, but Infantino was just phoning it
>>in by then, to the point where not even Denys Cowan was able to make much
>>sense out of his doodles).
>
>True, but as I point out in my other response, we don't know yet if
>there's anything about Barry as a character per se that will sell.
>
>But that was a horrible, horrible run for the book and that poor craft
>would have killed any character, I bet.
>
It was so awful I stopped reading Flash and Flash was one of my
favorite books up until the death of Iris.
It is a story that ought to get collected as a Showcase or two just to
be used as an example of how not to do it.
John Duncan Yoyo
I think they turned up in Shadow Pact as well.
Alex Wayne
On 17-Nov-2008, newto...@mypacks.net wrote:
> > >Until Final Crisis I thought Barry Allen would be a death that stuck.
> >
> > >Michael
> >
> > My thinking was that all major heroes would return some day. it is a
> > money think. Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>
> That's a gimmick that I actually don't think will stick. But maybe.
>
> I think Max Lord, Pa Kent, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Bill Foster, Ted
> Kord and Vic Sage will all stay dead.
>
> The Wizard Shazam is dead too, I guess. But he could easily come back
> (if he hasn't already). magic and all that.
>
> Is Katma Tui still dead?
After The Return of Bucky, Robin II, and The Flash; I am never sure that any
character ever stays dead anymore!
Back in 1979 I thought that the Earth-Two Batman will come back to life
eventually, but never did!
Of the list that you provided, I agree with all but the last two, I think
there is a possiblity that Ted Kord, and Vic Sage will return. Yes, I also
think that the wizard "Shazam" will return as well, since he is essential to
the character of "Captain Marvel".
Jay A. Johnson
"Alex Wayne" <alex_w...@batcave.org> wrote in message
news:005df799$0$12262$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
> On 17-Nov-2008, newto...@mypacks.net wrote:
>
>> > >Until Final Crisis I thought Barry Allen would be a death that stuck.
>> >
>> > >Michael
>> >
>> > My thinking was that all major heroes would return some day. it is a
>> > money think. Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>>
>> That's a gimmick that I actually don't think will stick. But maybe.
>>
>> I think Max Lord, Pa Kent, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Bill Foster, Ted
>> Kord and Vic Sage will all stay dead.
Max: thinly-veiled doppelgangers will show up (like the Gray Lord in
Trinity), eventually every time traveller in the multiverse will be
observing either Max shooting Ted or Diana killing Max, and Max will be King
of the next Legion of the Unliving, but, yeah, he stays dead.
Pa Kent: Until the next reboot. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some
"young Clark Kent and the Legion of Super-Heroes" stories coming from G.
Johns in the near future, so Pa could show up there.
Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Bill Foster: probably will stay dead in the DC
Universe.
Ted Kord: see Max Lord.
Vic Sage: Might be a mutiverse version around, but really no reason to bring
him back. Montoya actually makes a more interesting Question.
>> The Wizard Shazam is dead too, I guess. But he could easily come back
>> (if he hasn't already). magic and all that.
Dead until the next Day of Vengance or magic reboot, but ya'd think he would
have been smart enough and able to preserve enough of his essence in the
Rock of Eternity or other artifact to be easily resurrectable.
>> Is Katma Tui still dead?
In the latest GL, the Blue Lantern gave John a vision of him and Katma
together again, so she might be on the way back -- high odds on her being a
Black Lantern first.
> After The Return of Bucky, Robin II, and The Flash; I am never sure that
> any
> character ever stays dead anymore!
> Back in 1979 I thought that the Earth-Two Batman will come back to life
> eventually, but never did!
I would think most anybody who doesn't already have an action figure will
stay dead, but anybody who has one will be back eventually.
grinningdemon
<under...@cox.net> wrote:
>>> Is Katma Tui still dead?
>
>In the latest GL, the Blue Lantern gave John a vision of him and Katma
>together again, so she might be on the way back -- high odds on her being a
>Black Lantern first.
Or maybe John's about to die too.
Dan McEwen
news:qve8n4pnt8m0n3slf...@4ax.com:
Anima is going to stay dead I'm sure. And didn't another one of the
Bloodpack(?) die, too? I'm sure he'll stay dead.
grinningdemon
The other guy (I don't remember his name) wasn't dead yet...it looked
like his neck was broken but he may survive...but, yeah, Anima
probably won't be back...I'm surprised it took them this long to use
her as cannon fodder to make some bad guy look like a bad ass.
CleV
I don't know anything about her or her appearances, but I've read
somewhere that she's already been killed somewhere else by another
villain in asimilar storyline, so she's actually been used twice for
this reason!
badbad
CleV wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:03:04 -0600, grinningdemon
> <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
>
> I don't know anything about her or her appearances, but I've read
> somewhere that she's already been killed somewhere else by another
> villain in asimilar storyline, so she's actually been used twice for
> this reason!
She will be back...
\badbad
grinningdemon
I vaguely remember she had a short-lived series back in the 90s but I
never bothered with it so I don't know anyhthing beyond that...as to
her dying twice, it's entirely possible...writers lose track of
obscure characters like this and details like death tend to get
overlooked for convience purposes.
grinningdemon
Dan McEwen
news:GIuel.11030$W06....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com:
What, as another Black Lantern?
Rob D.
>
> I would think most anybody who doesn't already have an action figure will
> stay dead, but anybody who has one will be back eventually.
I'm pretty sure I saw action figures of Sigmund Freud and Pope John
Paul II at Hasting's Books last week.
Now, I don't think Freud has ever shown up in a Marvel book, but I'm
pretty sure JPII did at one point, as well as Mother Teresa of
Calcutta . . .
Rob D.
>
> > She will be back...
>
> What, as another Black Lantern?
As Kennette . . .
ri
> On 17-Nov-2008, newto...@mypacks.net wrote:
>
>>> My thinking was that all major heroes would return some day. it is a
>>> money think. Barry Allen coming back sells comics.
>> That's a gimmick that I actually don't think will stick. But maybe.
>>
>> I think Max Lord, Pa Kent, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Bill Foster, Ted
>> Kord and Vic Sage will all stay dead.
>>
>> (if he hasn't already). magic and all that.
>>
>
> that this is a gateway to bring some of the dead characters back to life
> from the zombie state. If this is true, my guess that the most likely to
> return to life are:
>
> Earth-Two Superman (Gawd I hope not)
> Hawkman (yes)
> Hawkgirl (yes)
> Blue Beetle (yes)
> The Question (no)
> Aquaman (yes)
> Jade (no)
> Katma Tu ????
> Tomar-Re ????
> The Atom (Al Pratt) (no)
> Solomon Grundy (doesn't he always)
>