Superman: Secret Origin #3
Marty
I'm enjoying it almost as much as A*Supes!
The art is fantastic and the redefining of the Superman mythos is
extremely well done. I love how impersonal, greedy, corrput, desperate
and souless Metropolis seems. Lex Luthor has carved this city into a
hollow image of himself.
At this moment in time it is *his* city. The only force fighting for
"truth" in Metropolis is on the verge of bankrupcy. One can perhaps
understand how Lex must presently feel ursurped in his role of "hero"
in the eyes of its citizens, and thusly hate the man who took it all
away from him. Everything he has worked underhandedly and sinisterly
so hard for.
My only regret is that after rreading each of these snapshots in time,
I feel like I'd like to know a great deal more about the ongoing story
during this time.
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Anybody else reading this?
>
>I'm enjoying it almost as much as A*Supes!
>
>The art is fantastic and the redefining of the Superman mythos is
>extremely well done. I love how impersonal, greedy, corrput, desperate
>and souless Metropolis seems. Lex Luthor has carved this city into a
>hollow image of himself.
I generally like the art but I think Frank is trying a little too hard
to make Clark look like Chris Reeve...and I'm really not wild about
all the silver age elements that have crept back in to this
version...in many ways, it's more falling back on an old definition
than a REdefinition.
>At this moment in time it is *his* city. The only force fighting for
>"truth" in Metropolis is on the verge of bankrupcy. One can perhaps
>understand how Lex must presently feel ursurped in his role of "hero"
>in the eyes of its citizens, and thusly hate the man who took it all
>away from him. Everything he has worked underhandedly and sinisterly
>so hard for.
Lex needs to be several years older than Clark to give him a
believable amount of time to have risen to this point...and there is
absolutely no reason for him to have any connection to Smallville at
all...it's not like the Smallville TV show were there was some great
friendship between Clark and Lex and a slow descent into
darkness...they barely even knew each other and Lex started out
dark...they could just have easily skipped it...I also would have
liked to see Lana have a bigger role.
>My only regret is that after rreading each of these snapshots in time,
>I feel like I'd like to know a great deal more about the ongoing story
>during this time.
On that we agree...it seems kind of rushed...hell, we're half way
through the series and he's already pretty much at the point where a
Superman origin story should end...there should have been more focus
on Smallville and definitely some coverage of the time between #2 and
#3...Superman's time between Smallville and Metropolis is one of the
least explored periods in his life...the one thing that I liked about
Superman: Birthright was that they covered some of Clark's
"walkabout."
Len-L
>Anybody else reading this?
>
>I'm enjoying it almost as much as A*Supes!
I certainly enjoyed the first meeting of Lois and Clark -- though she
accepted him a bit too readily, doncha think? -- and the meeting of Lois
and Superman. Thankfully the writer avoided using the "Who's got you?"
line.
Len-L
------
"You say tomato, I say blood red seed fruit, sent directly
from the plasticine village of fertile flavors and utopian
joy!" -- Toby, Robot Satan
grinningdemon
>On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 08:52:16 -0800 (PST), Marty <killha...@yahoo.com>
>opined:
>
>>Anybody else reading this?
>>
>>I'm enjoying it almost as much as A*Supes!
>
>I certainly enjoyed the first meeting of Lois and Clark -- though she
>accepted him a bit too readily, doncha think? -- and the meeting of Lois
>and Superman. Thankfully the writer avoided using the "Who's got you?"
>line.
I was actually kind of surprised that they didn't use that line since
the scene was so close to the movie version...there are a lot of nods
to the movie and to the Smallville tv show in this book.
Marty
> Lex needs to be several years older than Clark to give him a
> believable amount of time to have risen to this point...and there is
> absolutely no reason for him to have any connection to Smallville at
> all...it's not like the Smallville TV show were there was some great
> friendship between Clark and Lex and a slow descent into
> darkness...they barely even knew each other and Lex started out
> dark...they could just have easily skipped it...I also would have
> liked to see Lana have a bigger role.
Mm, Clark is quite old coming into this story. He looks to be late
20's? While Luthor would already be in his 30's? In the previous issue
he looks to be quite a few years older than Clark. nd I guess the idea
is staight from Smallville that's all Luthor has been doing. Bearing
in mind Luthor is meant to be *the* evil genius I don't think it's
asking to suspend your disbelief that much.
Is Clark going out into the world travelling part of the mythos? How
odd that both Bruce and Clark took a "Gap" year or five to go find
themselves.
I guess Luthor coming from Smallville has come to be expected by the
non-comic reading masses? Possibly, now accepted as part of the
mythos. Birthright introduces this no (after Smallville of course)?
I'll bet if they do restart the Superman film franchise, Lex will end
up being raised in Smallville. I mean anybody in their right mind
already has two films partly plotted out in Johns work already,
"Secret Origins" and "Braniac".
> On that we agree...it seems kind of rushed...hell, we're half way
> through the series and he's already pretty much at the point where a
> Superman origin story should end...there should have been more focus
> on Smallville and definitely some coverage of the time between #2 and
> #3...Superman's time between Smallville and Metropolis is one of the
> least explored periods in his life...the one thing that I liked about
> Superman: Birthright was that they covered some of Clark's
> "walkabout."
I wouldn't say the writing or art seems rushed, just the idea. I'm not
sure we're meant to view this as an actual storyline. It's just
snapshots of Clark's life that we are meant to already know. More or
less. I suppose, just to give us an idea of what Superman's origin
really is.
Marty
>
> >I'm enjoying it almost as much as A*Supes!
>
> I certainly enjoyed the first meeting of Lois and Clark -- though she
> accepted him a bit too readily, doncha think? -- and the meeting of Lois
> and Superman. Thankfully the writer avoided using the "Who's got you?"
> line.
> Len-L
I'm not sure she has really accepted him yet, but you know, thinking
about it, Lois is an intelligent woman, would a woman in her position
(especially in the state that Metropolis and its people are in at that
time) brush off the naive, good looking, buff, well mannered farm boy
(who isn't gay)? I'm thinking not.
grinningdemon
<killha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Lex needs to be several years older than Clark to give him a
>> believable amount of time to have risen to this point...and there is
>> absolutely no reason for him to have any connection to Smallville at
>> all...it's not like the Smallville TV show were there was some great
>> friendship between Clark and Lex and a slow descent into
>> darkness...they barely even knew each other and Lex started out
>> dark...they could just have easily skipped it...I also would have
>> liked to see Lana have a bigger role.
>
>Mm, Clark is quite old coming into this story. He looks to be late
>20's? While Luthor would already be in his 30's? In the previous issue
>he looks to be quite a few years older than Clark. nd I guess the idea
>is staight from Smallville that's all Luthor has been doing. Bearing
>in mind Luthor is meant to be *the* evil genius I don't think it's
>asking to suspend your disbelief that much.
I don't know...I just always picture Lex as being significantly older
and most versions have more of an age gap too...even Smallville had an
age gap of at least 10 years (though it's not so noticable after the
rest of the characters get out of high school).
>Is Clark going out into the world travelling part of the mythos? How
>odd that both Bruce and Clark took a "Gap" year or five to go find
>themselves.
It depends on which version you look at...some versions (like Man of
Steel and Birthright) have him wandering the world for several years
and other versions (like the original movie) have him hanging out in
the fortress for years "training"...I find the walkabout version far
more interesting.
>I guess Luthor coming from Smallville has come to be expected by the
>non-comic reading masses? Possibly, now accepted as part of the
>mythos. Birthright introduces this no (after Smallville of course)?
Actually, Luthor having a Smallville connection goes all the way back
to the Silver Age, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
>I'll bet if they do restart the Superman film franchise, Lex will end
>up being raised in Smallville. I mean anybody in their right mind
>already has two films partly plotted out in Johns work already,
>"Secret Origins" and "Braniac".
I doubt a new movie would focus on the origin of Superman given that
the Smallville TV show is so recent and that the previous movies have
covered the origin pretty well.
>> On that we agree...it seems kind of rushed...hell, we're half way
>> through the series and he's already pretty much at the point where a
>> Superman origin story should end...there should have been more focus
>> on Smallville and definitely some coverage of the time between #2 and
>> #3...Superman's time between Smallville and Metropolis is one of the
>> least explored periods in his life...the one thing that I liked about
>> Superman: Birthright was that they covered some of Clark's
>> "walkabout."
>
>I wouldn't say the writing or art seems rushed, just the idea.
I didn't say the art felt rushed...just the story.
I'm not
>sure we're meant to view this as an actual storyline. It's just
>snapshots of Clark's life that we are meant to already know. More or
>less. I suppose, just to give us an idea of what Superman's origin
>really is.
I think it would have worked better if they made it two or even three
mini series...one series to focus on the Smallville years, one on his
start in Metropolis, and possibly one in between.
Kenneth M. Lin
The current guy is just tracing and not doing a very good job at that.
Duggy
> Is Clark going out into the world travelling part of the mythos? How
> odd that both Bruce and Clark took a "Gap" year or five to go find
> themselves.
Heck, they even pasted each other on the steps to a buddhist temple.
> I guess Luthor coming from Smallville has come to be expected by the
> non-comic reading masses? Possibly, now accepted as part of the
> mythos. Birthright introduces this no (after Smallville of course)?
The Adventures of Superboy introduced this didn't it?
===
= DUG.
===
Joe Sewell
>
>> Lex needs to be several years older than Clark to give him a
>> believable amount of time to have risen to this point...and there is
>> absolutely no reason for him to have any connection to Smallville at
>> all...it's not like the Smallville TV show were there was some great
>> friendship between Clark and Lex and a slow descent into
>> darkness...they barely even knew each other and Lex started out
>> dark...they could just have easily skipped it...I also would have
>> liked to see Lana have a bigger role.
>>
>
> non-comic reading masses? Possibly, now accepted as part of the
> mythos. Birthright introduces this no (after Smallville of course)?
>
> I'll bet if they do restart the Superman film franchise, Lex will end
> up being raised in Smallville. I mean anybody in their right mind
> already has two films partly plotted out in Johns work already,
> "Secret Origins" and "Braniac".
>
>
before his turn to evil has its roots in the Silver Age. The Smallville
series, Birthright, et al. only bring that point back.
>> On that we agree...it seems kind of rushed...hell, we're half way
>> through the series and he's already pretty much at the point where a
>> Superman origin story should end...there should have been more focus
>> on Smallville and definitely some coverage of the time between #2 and
>> #3...Superman's time between Smallville and Metropolis is one of the
>> least explored periods in his life...the one thing that I liked about
>> Superman: Birthright was that they covered some of Clark's
>> "walkabout."
>>
>
> I wouldn't say the writing or art seems rushed, just the idea. I'm not
> sure we're meant to view this as an actual storyline. It's just
> snapshots of Clark's life that we are meant to already know. More or
> less. I suppose, just to give us an idea of what Superman's origin
> really is.
>
about Superman.
grinningdemon
wrote:
But another Smallville is exactly what we need...the continuity is so
royally fucked up and it's the early days that always take the worst
of the continuity changes...the later stuff doesn't usually change all
that much...relatively speaking.
Lilith
>On Tue, 1 Dec 2009 08:52:16 -0800 (PST), Marty <killha...@yahoo.com>
>opined:
>
>>Anybody else reading this?
>>
>>I'm enjoying it almost as much as A*Supes!
>
>I certainly enjoyed the first meeting of Lois and Clark -- though she
>accepted him a bit too readily, doncha think? -- and the meeting of Lois
>and Superman. Thankfully the writer avoided using the "Who's got you?"
>line.
>Len-L
I think Lois didn't really take to Clark so much as she saw him as an
opportunity to gain access to Luthor's demonstration.
--
Lilith
Raymond Speer
Originally, the "Lex Luthor and Clark Kent are both from Smallville"
meme was bizarre back in the Fifties.
Is there anyway possible that the adult Luthor would not notice that
"Superboy was on my ass back when I was a juvenile deliquent building
giant armored robots. Hummm, it was just like he was a fellow kid in
tiny Smallville, Kansas.
"Hmmmm, in that way, he reminds me of Clark Kent, who as a adult works
for the Daily Planet. Kent has been around me since daycare, which was
when I first saw Superbaby fly thru the sky."
In Secret Origins 3, the extent of contact between Superman and Luthor
has been extensively trimmed to a minimum ---- but if the idea is
making Supes and Lex into social strangers, why bother to furnish them
with the same hometown?
grinningdemon
wrote:
Another nod to the Silver Age (when Superman was apparently so awesome
they decided to throw most of this junk out)...or to Smallville...hard
to tell in this series.
GordonD
news:jcbbh59sqi4en054r...@4ax.com...
It wouldn't really make sense - in the film, there are probably no other
superheroes so when Superman flies up and catches Lois she doesn't
understand what is happening. But in the comics version they've been around
for decades so one more flying character wouldn't be *that* much of a
surprise.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."
John
>
> It wouldn't really make sense - in the film, there are probably no other
> superheroes so when Superman flies up and catches Lois she doesn't
> understand what is happening. But in the comics version they've been around
> for decades so one more flying character wouldn't be *that* much of a
> surprise.
And you've just hit my big complaint with the post-Crisis "combined
Earth". Prior to the great merging of Earths, on most Earth's that
had superheroes, Superman (or his equivalent) was one of if not THE
first super-powered hero on the planet. This was a large part of what
he was and the cultural niche he filled in his world. In the post-
Crisis merged timeline, there were scads of powered heroes before
Superman - which just kind of made him "one more super-powered bloke
in tights".
Personally, I had (in vain I realize) been hoping that Infinite Crisis
would undo the great merging, making Superman once again "the first" -
but alas, it was not to be. DC has (in their minds at least) too much
of an investment in merged timeline to ever break it apart again.
-----
As I recall, at the start of the post-Crisis era, Superman was
portrayed as being the first (or one of the first) super-powered
heroes after the long gap caused by the JSA "retiring".
Unfortunately, as the length of time in between the JSA retiring and
"now" has increased, new eras of heroes have been introduced to fill
the intervening years.
JD
Daibhid Ceanaideach
One new era of heroes. And the heroes involved (the "Justice Experience")
were mostly GreatLakesAvengers-level incompetents whose existence
arguably *increased* the significance of Superman's debut ("At last! It's
a *real* superhero!")
I'm pretty sure that, even on Earth-One, there were a few WWII
superheroes. An Earth-One Zatara must logically have existed in order for
there to be a Zatanna, for instance.
Then again, I'm not sold that Superman needs to be first in order to be
special. He just needs to be Superman.
--
Dave
"All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand."
The Room With No Doors, Kate Orman
Duggy
> On Dec 7, 1:57 pm, "GordonD" <g.da...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It wouldn't really make sense - in the film, there are probably no other
> > superheroes so when Superman flies up and catches Lois she doesn't
> > understand what is happening. But in the comics version they've been around
> > for decades so one more flying character wouldn't be *that* much of a
> > surprise.
>
> And you've just hit my big complaint with the post-Crisis "combined
> Earth". Prior to the great merging of Earths, on most Earth's that
> had superheroes, Superman (or his equivalent) was one of if not THE
> first super-powered hero on the planet. This was a large part of what
> he was and the cultural niche he filled in his world. In the post-
> Crisis merged timeline, there were scads of powered heroes before
> Superman - which just kind of made him "one more super-powered bloke
> in tights".
> Personally, I had (in vain I realize) been hoping that Infinite Crisis
> would undo the great merging, making Superman once again "the first" -
> but alas, it was not to be. DC has (in their minds at least) too much
> of an investment in merged timeline to ever break it apart again.
There was a slight attempt to fix this...
Is it Crimson Avenger who was the first Mystery Man/WWII era
Superhero?
Anyway, whoever it was was inspired by a glimse into the future in
which he saw Superman's death fighting Doomsday.
So Superman is the hero that inspired the whole idea again... but only
one hero knew this and it wasn't a public thing.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
wrote:
> One new era of heroes. And the heroes involved (the "Justice Experience")
> were mostly GreatLakesAvengers-level incompetents whose existence
> arguably *increased* the significance of Superman's debut ("At last! It's
> a *real* superhero!")
> I'm pretty sure that, even on Earth-One, there were a few WWII
> superheroes. An Earth-One Zatara must logically have existed in order for
> there to be a Zatanna, for instance.
Did Zatara need to be a overt superhero? Did he need to appear before
Superboy?
Of course, at least in the current continuity, there were heroes
before even the WWII set...
> Then again, I'm not sold that Superman needs to be first in order to be
> special. He just needs to be Superman.
There are a lot of great US Presidents, but only one George
Washington.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
<daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
I agree...he's not the first, he's the greatest...it works better, in
my opinion.
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Dec 8, 8:55�am, Daibhid Ceanaideach <daibhidchened...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>> One new era of heroes. And the heroes involved (the "Justice Experience")
>> were mostly GreatLakesAvengers-level incompetents whose existence
>> arguably *increased* the significance of Superman's debut ("At last! It's
>> a *real* superhero!")
>
>> I'm pretty sure that, even on Earth-One, there were a few WWII
>> superheroes. An Earth-One Zatara must logically have existed in order for
>> there to be a Zatanna, for instance.
>
>Did Zatara need to be a overt superhero? Did he need to appear before
>Superboy?
>
>Of course, at least in the current continuity, there were heroes
>before even the WWII set...
Superman was never the first "mystery man"...he may have been the one
they coined the term super hero for but there were already characters
that essentially filled that role in existence.
>> Then again, I'm not sold that Superman needs to be first in order to be
>> special. He just needs to be Superman.
>
>There are a lot of great US Presidents, but only one George
>Washington.
Yes, but he was arguably eclipsed by Lincoln...the first doesn't have
to be the greatest.
Personally, I find it a lot more interesting as is with the JSA as the
trailblazers of the the super hero community and the JLA (Superman
included) as the generation that perfected it.
Raymond Speer
My lack of fondness for the new "merged Earth" history is that the DC
version of Earth is in constant contact with numerous alien invaders,
time travelers and multiple mystic entities. At a bare minimum, there
was a plethora of superbeings enrolled on behalf of Germany and America
back in the Nineteen Thirties.
Yet the pretense is that all that difference actually made very few
alterations to history. At least a half dozen lantern corps recruit off
Earth, At least two pantheons of deities make life complicated for Bill
Mahar and Christopher Hutchins. There are innumerable one of a kind
devices, inventions, artifects and beings that openly and reliably
transcend all laws of physics
But that world is somehow able to be our world. The latest but one
President was a full fledged supervillain and that hardly made a
ripple. All that is too much of a good thing.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
But surely that was the case for the pre-merged Earths as well? Earth-One
was invaded by aliens every second week, and had innumerable things
trancending the laws of physics. Earth-Two had superbeings on both sides
of WWII, but a 1960s that seemed largely identical to Earth-One.
Eminence
And in my opinion, it's less effective. In the post-CoIE combined
Earth, he's not the first hero, and he's not the first superhero. This
version of Superman is important more for META reasons that for
actual, in-story ones -- his debut is followed in short order by those
of J'Onn J'Onzz, Green Lantern II, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom, and
Wonder Woman; following the Byrne reboot, he was less powerful (and
therefore closer to his peers in power level); and although there had
been a significant gap since the JSA was last around, THAT group
included Green Lantern, Starman, Dr. Fate, and the Spectre... hardly
lightweights. And, IIRC, the post-Byrne Superman got a pretty good
thrashing from Lobo (which no doubt led TPTB to consider amping up his
powers again). In retrospect -- within the context of the DCU itself
-- it's a bit surprising that nobody else ever took the name
"Superman" first.
He's heroic, to be sure, but not exactly a standout -- again, we have
a first-tier character whose rep is largely defined through META
reasons external to the DCU, and then he went and got himself
killed... which, as Batman later pointed out, was the last time he
actually inspired anybody.
It's easy to understand Superman earning his rep when he debuts on
Earth-2 in 1938, and again on Earth-1 in whatever year the pre-CoIE
floating timeline anchors that story -- after all, this would be the
planet-juggling Weisinger Superman. But when he debuts on a merged
Earth, decades after several WWII-era standouts, I think that tends to
make him *less* special. In-story, he would have had to work harder to
earn that rep, and based on the stories from 1986 onward, he never
really did that. I'll say it again: for META reasons, he didn't have
to; he was already Superman. But as a character operating within the
shared-universe storytelling mechanism of the DCU, he *should* have.
Eminence
_______________
Usenet: Global Village of the Damned
grinningdemon
Your problems with this seem to come more from the handling of
Superman post crisis than from the actual concept of the combined
earth and where Superman fits in it...a few decades of retcons have
muddied the waters a bit but the general idea was that, on the
combined earth, he was kind of the first of a new generation of heroes
(the Silver Agers)...and the general idea with these guys is that they
all do things bigger and better than their Golden Age counterparts
(both in their actions and in the threats they have faced)...it hasn't
always been handled well but, in concept, I think this works better
than the original...and, as for the combined earth Superman not being
great enough to have earned his reputation, that is something they
have been trying to address in the last few years and I think it's
working well enough.
Duggy
> >There are a lot of great US Presidents, but only one George
> >Washington.
> Yes, but he was arguably eclipsed by Lincoln...the first doesn't have
> to be the greatest.
Ah, yes, "arguably".
The problem is that in the current DCU for a long time there was
another "greatest" Superhero/Mystery Man.
For the sake of argument, let's say it was Alan Scott.
Now, Alan Scott was great, "but he was arguably eclipsed by
Superman..."
Whereas, old universe, he was first *and* greatest means there's no
arguably about it.
> Personally, I find it a lot more interesting as is with the JSA as the
> trailblazers of the the super hero community and the JLA (Superman
> included) as the generation that perfected it.
I don't find it more or less interesting, I just think that the JSA
limbo thing has to be retconned to having happened before the
beginning of the current age of Superheroes and we need to work out
how to deal with their kids.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Dec 8, 2:44 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >There are a lot of great US Presidents, but only one George
>> >Washington.
>> Yes, but he was arguably eclipsed by Lincoln...the first doesn't have
>> to be the greatest.
>
>Ah, yes, "arguably".
>
>The problem is that in the current DCU for a long time there was
>another "greatest" Superhero/Mystery Man.
Except there wasn't...because this was all retroactive.
>For the sake of argument, let's say it was Alan Scott.
>
>Now, Alan Scott was great, "but he was arguably eclipsed by
>Superman..."
Alan Scott may be said to be the greatest of those heroes that are
still a part of his generation but I don't think there was ever any
question of whether or not he was eclipsed by Superman..."arguably"
may apply to Presidents (though only those two rise to that level) but
it wouldn't apply to the heroes...it's not really a good analogy, in
my opinion.
>Whereas, old universe, he was first *and* greatest means there's no
>arguably about it.
Except he was never really the first at all...people just assume that
because he was the greatest.
>> Personally, I find it a lot more interesting as is with the JSA as the
>> trailblazers of the the super hero community and the JLA (Superman
>> included) as the generation that perfected it.
>
>I don't find it more or less interesting, I just think that the JSA
>limbo thing has to be retconned to having happened before the
>beginning of the current age of Superheroes and we need to work out
>how to deal with their kids.
I don't think the limbo thing has been retconned at all...they all
retired for decades (with the sliding timescale) and most of them
waited until later in life to have kids...it's not perfect by any
means but there is no perfect way to deal with it...and I would prefer
to avoid any more major retcons for the time being.
grinningdemon
Ah, I forgot to add the part where they all aged slower because of
their exposure to magic.
Duggy
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:45:26 -0800 (PST),Duggy
> >another "greatest" Superhero/Mystery Man.
> Except there wasn't...because this was all retroactive.
In the DCU there was.
For the reader he is and always was the first superhero.
> Alan Scott may be said to be the greatest of those heroes that are
> still a part of his generation but I don't think there was ever any
> question of whether or not he was eclipsed by Superman..."arguably"
> may apply to Presidents (though only those two rise to that level) but
> it wouldn't apply to the heroes...it's not really a good analogy, in
> my opinion.
It applies to Presidents. It applies to sports people. And it
applies to heroes.
> >Whereas, old universe, he was first *and* greatest means there's no
> >arguably about it.
> Except he was never really the first at all...people just assume that
> because he was the greatest.
Happens.
> >I don't find it more or less interesting, I just think that the JSA
> >limbo thing has to be retconned to having happened before the
> >beginning of the current age of Superheroes and we need to work out
> >how to deal with their kids.
> I don't think the limbo thing has been retconned at all...
It hasn't. It should be.
> they all
> retired for decades (with the sliding timescale) and most of them
> waited until later in life to have kids...it's not perfect by any
> means but there is no perfect way to deal with it...and I would prefer
> to avoid any more major retcons for the time being.
So they waited until the were in their 40s or 50s to have kids?
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= DUG.
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Duggy
> Ah, I forgot to add the part where they all aged slower because of
> their exposure to magic.
Which makes secret identities a joke and needs to apply to wives as
well.
Actually, the JSA needs to become unfixed to WWII, as painful as that
seems.
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= DUG.
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grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Dec 14, 1:21 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Ah, I forgot to add the part where they all aged slower because of
>> their exposure to magic.
>
>Which makes secret identities a joke and needs to apply to wives as
>well.
Most of them don't have secret identities anyway...at least not the
ones that survived into recent times.
>Actually, the JSA needs to become unfixed to WWII, as painful as that
>seems.
That is a terrible idea.
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Dec 14, 1:19 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:45:26 -0800 (PST),Duggy
>> >The problem is that in the current DCU for a long time there was
>> >another "greatest" Superhero/Mystery Man.
>> Except there wasn't...because this was all retroactive.
>
>In the DCU there was.
>
>For the reader he is and always was the first superhero.
Then what's the problem?
>> Alan Scott may be said to be the greatest of those heroes that are
>> still a part of his generation but I don't think there was ever any
>> question of whether or not he was eclipsed by Superman..."arguably"
>> may apply to Presidents (though only those two rise to that level) but
>> it wouldn't apply to the heroes...it's not really a good analogy, in
>> my opinion.
>
>It applies to Presidents. It applies to sports people. And it
>applies to heroes.
But not so much to DC heroes.
>> >Whereas, old universe, he was first *and* greatest means there's no
>> >arguably about it.
>> Except he was never really the first at all...people just assume that
>> because he was the greatest.
>
>Happens.
>
>> >I don't find it more or less interesting, I just think that the JSA
>> >limbo thing has to be retconned to having happened before the
>> >beginning of the current age of Superheroes and we need to work out
>> >how to deal with their kids.
>> I don't think the limbo thing has been retconned at all...
>
>It hasn't. It should be.
I don't think it really needs to be...it's a stretch certainly but
magical longevity is the best possible way to go at this point.
>> they all
>> retired for decades (with the sliding timescale) and most of them
>> waited until later in life to have kids...it's not perfect by any
>> means but there is no perfect way to deal with it...and I would prefer
>> to avoid any more major retcons for the time being.
>
>So they waited until the were in their 40s or 50s to have kids?
Seems so...some of this may actually be addressed in the upcoming
Legacy series.
Duggy
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:45:08 -0800 (PST),Duggy
>
> >On Dec 14, 1:19 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:45:26 -0800 (PST),Duggy
> >> >The problem is that in the current DCU for a long time there was
> >> >another "greatest" Superhero/Mystery Man.
> >> Except there wasn't...because this was all retroactive.
> >In the DCU there was.
> >For the reader he is and always was the first superhero.
> Then what's the problem?
Because Superman isn't nec the greatest with the DCU.
> >It applies to Presidents. It applies to sports people. And it
> >applies to heroes.
> But not so much to DC heroes.
You're saying people within the DCU don't argue about such things?
> >> >I don't find it more or less interesting, I just think that the JSA
> >> >limbo thing has to be retconned to having happened before the
> >> >beginning of the current age of Superheroes and we need to work out
> >> >how to deal with their kids.
> >> I don't think the limbo thing has been retconned at all...
> >It hasn't. It should be.
> I don't think it really needs to be...it's a stretch certainly but
> magical longevity is the best possible way to go at this point.
Longevity that is applied to their wives as well.
> >So they waited until the were in their 40s or 50s to have kids?
> Seems so...some of this may actually be addressed in the upcoming
> Legacy series.
So their wives were all over 40?
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= DUG.
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grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Dec 15, 2:25 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:45:08 -0800 (PST),Duggy
>>
>> <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>> >On Dec 14, 1:19 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:45:26 -0800 (PST),Duggy
>> >> >The problem is that in the current DCU for a long time there was
>> >> >another "greatest" Superhero/Mystery Man.
>> >> Except there wasn't...because this was all retroactive.
>> >In the DCU there was.
>> >For the reader he is and always was the first superhero.
>> Then what's the problem?
>
>Because Superman isn't nec the greatest with the DCU.
If readers consider him the greatest, he IS the greatest.
>> >It applies to Presidents. It applies to sports people. And it
>> >applies to heroes.
>> But not so much to DC heroes.
>
>You're saying people within the DCU don't argue about such things?
Whether people in the DCU argue about such things is irrelevant
(unless writers choose to make it relevant)...when it comes to the DC
Universe, reader preception is all that matters...if we think of
Superman as the greatest then he IS.
>> >> >I don't find it more or less interesting, I just think that the JSA
>> >> >limbo thing has to be retconned to having happened before the
>> >> >beginning of the current age of Superheroes and we need to work out
>> >> >how to deal with their kids.
>> >> I don't think the limbo thing has been retconned at all...
>> >It hasn't. It should be.
>> I don't think it really needs to be...it's a stretch certainly but
>> magical longevity is the best possible way to go at this point.
>
>Longevity that is applied to their wives as well.
Many of them weren't married back in the WWII days (Ted
Knight/Starman, for instance)...their spouses could be significantly
younger...and some of the spouses were heroes (or villains) themselves
at one point and could age slower for similar reasons (Alan Scott and
his wife, Johnny Quick & Liberty Belle, etc.)...but it certainly is a
problem in some cases (Black Canary springs to mind).
>> >So they waited until the were in their 40s or 50s to have kids?
>> Seems so...some of this may actually be addressed in the upcoming
>> Legacy series.
>
>So their wives were all over 40?
Women in their 40s have kids all the time these days...presumably
without any magical intervention.
Duggy
> >> >So they waited until the were in their 40s or 50s to have kids?
> >> Seems so...some of this may actually be addressed in the upcoming
> >> Legacy series.
> >So their wives were all over 40?
> Women in their 40s have kids all the time these days...presumably
> without any magical intervention.
These days. Not 20 years ago.
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= DUG.
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grinningdemon
Well, if it's happening now, it couldn't have been totally unheard of
20 years ago.