Joe Kelly's JLA Question
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
I just started reading the TPB a friend gave me....when these issues
were published, did anyone on this Newsgroup happen to mention how
UTTERLY OFFENSIVE they are to American Indians?
"The hottest squaw this side of Pocahontas"?????
Fallen
What's offensive about that?
Fallen.
Peter Mason
They still did a better job than the old superfriends cartoon with
Apache chief and everything. Of course I also recall that back then,
there was a NA/FN poster who apparently liked Manitou Raven.
Len-L
Mike Hall
Pocahontas was a 13 year old girl AFAIK when she married an Englishman. She
died many years ago.
That sentence is horrendously offensive to much of the human race, let alone
Native Americans! Still, it was a Firestorm thought-bubble which makes it
ok. Joe Kelly was writing about a young man's crush on a married woman, not
preaching icky morals at us. It was no different to an Impulse fantasy
bubble, except a little wetter when the bubble goes pop...
Mike Hall
Jakanapes
Squaw
Squaw is borrowed from the Narragansett word for woman and has cognates
in the other Algonquin languages. It appears in English in 1634,
shortly after the first European settlements in New England.
Squaw is not, as is often popularly claimed, a Native American word
meaning either prostitute or vagina. However, it is still considered by
many to be offensive in the same way that calling an English-speaking
female "woman" is offensive and non-Algonquin Indians may be offended
by it because it is not a word in their language--like calling a
Frenchwoman "Frau."
I'm not entirely sure how calling a woman a woman is an insult, though.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Firestorm's knowledge of
Pocahontas comes entirely from the Disney flick. Not sure if
that makes it better (she looks the same age as other Disney
heroines) or worse (she's a *cartoon*!)...
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"You stand as this world's champion?"
"I've no idea who I am, but you've just summed me up."
Aaron F. Bourque
> Also Sprach Mike Hall:
>
> > Fallen wrote:
> >> Magnus, Robot Fighter. wrote:
> >
> >>>I just started reading the TPB a friend gave me....when
> >>>these issues were published, did anyone on this Newsgroup
> >>>happen to mention how UTTERLY OFFENSIVE they are to
> >>>American Indians?
> >
> >>>"The hottest squaw this side of Pocahontas"?????
> >> What's offensive about that?
> >
> > Pocahontas was a 13 year old girl AFAIK when she married an
> > Englishman. She died many years ago.
> >
> > That sentence is horrendously offensive to much of the
> > human race, let alone Native Americans! Still, it was a
> > Firestorm thought-bubble which makes it ok. Joe Kelly was
> > writing about a young man's crush on a married woman, not
> > preaching icky morals at us. It was no different to an
> > Impulse fantasy bubble, except a little wetter when the
> > bubble goes pop...
>
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if Firestorm's knowledge of
> Pocahontas comes entirely from the Disney flick. Not sure if
> that makes it better (she looks the same age as other Disney
> heroines) or worse (she's a *cartoon*!)...
So is Firestorm, when you think about it.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; and there are a lot of young men (and
women) who develop "crushes" on animated characters. It's no more
unusual than crushing on "live-action" fictional characters, or the
actors and actresses who play them.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
>> I wouldn't be at all surprised if Firestorm's knowledge of
>> Pocahontas comes entirely from the Disney flick. Not sure
>> if that makes it better (she looks the same age as other
>> Disney heroines) or worse (she's a *cartoon*!)...
>
> So is Firestorm, when you think about it.
8-)
> Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; and there are a lot of
> young men (and women) who develop "crushes" on animated
> characters. It's no more unusual than crushing on
> "live-action" fictional characters, or the actors and
> actresses who play them.
Or Starfire. Just for instance...
I take the point.
badth...@yahoo.com
climax of the Obsidian Aget that introduced him, he even does the cry
and turns into a giant. That's the joke.
Which Morrison apparently didn't care for since he made him a cuckhold
and then killed him off.
Fallen
>Fallen wrote:
>
>
>>Magnus, Robot Fighter. wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>I just started reading the TPB a friend gave me....when these issues
>>>were published, did anyone on this Newsgroup happen to mention how
>>>UTTERLY OFFENSIVE they are to American Indians?
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>"The hottest squaw this side of Pocahontas"?????
>>>
>>>
>>What's offensive about that?
>>
>>
>
>Pocahontas was a 13 year old girl AFAIK when she married an Englishman. She
>died many years ago.
>
>Mike Hall
>
>
>
>
Pocahontas was 13 or so when she stopped her father killing John Smith.
She never married him and married someone else 7 years later. Making her
around 20.
Plus I would guess it's fairly obvious that the quote would have to be
talking about the Disney flick anyway (which glosses over the ages) as I
doubt 99% of people could pick the real pocahontas out of a crowd.
Fallen.
Fallen
Not to a great many people it isn't.
Fallen.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
o up to an Indian woman and say "Hey squaw!"...see what happens.
Shannon Patrick Sullivan
Grant Morrison didn't kill Manitou Raven; Joe Kelly himself did.
Shannon
--
| Shannon Patrick Sullivan >><< sha...@mun.ca |
| Novel Information >><< www.shannonsullivan.com |
\ Doctor Who >><< go.to/drwho-history /
|_ We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars _|
Tom Hutson
doubt 99% of people could pick the real pocahontas out of a crowd.
Fallen.
I CAN! I CAN! She's standing right between Batman and Bullseye!
;-)
Have fun,
Tom
badth...@yahoo.com
and died. My bad.
Fallen
*shrug* No more insulting than walking up to a random female and saying
'Hey woman'.
Fallen.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
Like I said...give her a try. While you're at it go up to a black
woman and call her Negress.
Fallen
Yeah that's the same. Negress is Woman in what language again?
Fallen.
Duggy
Jakanapes wrote:
> I'm not entirely sure how calling a woman a woman is an insult, though.
It's contextual.
"She is a woman" isn't offensive.
"Hey, woman come here" is.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
Mike Hall wrote:
> Pocahontas was a 13 year old girl AFAIK when she married an Englishman. She
> died many years ago.
In England. Years after she died John Smith made up stories about her
saving his life.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
Fallen wrote:
> Pocahontas was 13 or so when she stopped her father killing John Smith.
> She never married him and married someone else 7 years later. Making her
> around 20.
Which he never mentioned in his detailled diaries of his expeditions.
Then, after she became popular with the English King & Queen and died
of small pox (and thus couldn't contradict him) he remembered her
saving him...
===
= DUG.
===
Aaron *Brother Head* Moss
"Tom Hutson" <drs...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Rev. Aaron *Brother Head* Moss
aka Minister Moss
TheBr...@brotherhead.com
**************************************
Visit my website at:
http://www.brotherhead.com
**************************************
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without laughter!
***************************************
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
Specificlly "Hey Indian Woman come here!"
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
English. Means black woman. Just as Squaw is meant Indian Woman. Thats
how it's used: Indian Woman. I don't care if it means 'woman' in
Algonquin. It's used to mean 'Indian Woman' now.
Brian Doyle
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138045950.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Oh, I thought Morrison wrote the JLA Elite series where he was betrayed
> and died. My bad.
Morrison wrote the first arc of "JLA Classified" which was released at
roughly the same time IIRC.
kennet...@sbcglobal.net
"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <m...@key.com> wrote in message
news:rmm9t19h8pn500dls...@4ax.com...
>
> I just started reading the TPB a friend gave me....when these issues
> were published, did anyone on this Newsgroup happen to mention how
> UTTERLY OFFENSIVE they are to American Indians?
>
> "The hottest squaw this side of Pocahontas"?????
I thought his stories were so dumb that the entire human race would have
been offended.
Clell Harmon
Feather or Dot?
--
This message is sent to you from the International Center for The Advanced Application of Hindsight.
Peter Mason
brilliant idea in his run.
Martin Feller
"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <m...@key.com> wrote in message
news:rmm9t19h8pn500dls...@4ax.com...
>
> I just started reading the TPB a friend gave me....when these issues
> were published, did anyone on this Newsgroup happen to mention how
> UTTERLY OFFENSIVE they are to American Indians?
I don't know about American Indians, but I know quite a people that would
practically faint if they overheard that exchange, regardless of how the
people involved felt. WLG does that to people.
Fallen
And what's offensive about the phrase 'Indian Woman'?
"The hottest american indian woman this side of Pocahontas".
Is this one of those stupid things where you are being offended for
other people without bothering to ask them if they were offended?
Fallen.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
>>>>>
>>>>Like I said...give her a try. While you're at it go up to a black
>>>>woman and call her Negress.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yeah that's the same. Negress is Woman in what language again?
>>>
>>>Fallen.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>English. Means black woman. Just as Squaw is meant Indian Woman. Thats
>>how it's used: Indian Woman. I don't care if it means 'woman' in
>>Algonquin. It's used to mean 'Indian Woman' now.
>>
>>
>
>And what's offensive about the phrase 'Indian Woman'?
>
>"The hottest american indian woman this side of Pocahontas".
>
>Is this one of those stupid things where you are being offended for
>other people without bothering to ask them if they were offended?
>
>Fallen.
No. Being as I'm one of those 'other people'. I didn't need too.
Jakanapes
Um, why, exactly?
Jakanapes
Oh, c'mon. That's like saying Frau only refers to German women and
Senorita only refers to Spanish women.
It's a word that translates as woman. That's it.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
The translation is unimportant. We're talking about the usage of the
word. Look in the dictionary.
But if you think that's it, go up to an Indian Woman and say "Hey
squaw! c'mere!"
Fallen
You're all american indian women? That's impressive.
Fallen.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
Well, I did well in High School, but wouldn't go so far as to say
"All-American".
fungusamungus
| woman and call her Negress.
I dare you to find a black woman under thirty who even knows that that
means.
fungusamungus
| The translation is unimportant. We're talking about the usage of the
| word. Look in the dictionary.
|
| But if you think that's it, go up to an Indian Woman and say "Hey
| squaw! c'mere!"
Aside from the fact you really need to start snipping your posts, did you
ever stop to think that the writer used the term in an offensive manner on
*purpose*?
Jeez, everyone is so damn PC these days...
Magnus, Robot Fighter
Added to the fact that his American Indian hero is Spiritually based
(like EVERY SINGLE Indian superhero alive) and his wife speaks broken
English. (granted she didn'y know English) I'd say....no.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
So she shouldn't be offended then, right? Give her a try.
Andrew
> Added to the fact that his American Indian hero is Spiritually based
> (like EVERY SINGLE Indian superhero alive) and his wife speaks broken
> English. (granted she didn'y know English) I'd say....no.
>
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
Was supposed to be his people's mystical leader or some such nonsense.
Used magic to avenge his fallen comrades.
Mysticism abounds in Forge's origin. Just ONCE i'd like to see an
Indian with optic blasts or telekinisis and that doesn't have jack
shit to do with Indian Mysticism.
Agnos
> The idea for a League of Ancients in the Obsidian Age was the only
> brilliant idea in his run.
>
Mike Hall
Long story short (this obviously spoils the Obsidian Age):
Atlantean mystic queen from the distant past (ten thousand years ago?) has a
vision about a seven-headed hydra from the future who threatens the world.
She decides that it's the JLA and takes steps to stop them. She forms a
league of the most powerful beings from her time. They are the ancient
league, although they do not call themselves such.
Our World At War happens and Aquaman takes the entire of Atlantis back to
her time for safety as she is supposed to be the queen in a Golden Age of
Atlantis. The queen doesn't like them and enslaves them.
The ancient league attacks the JLA in "our" present and get their butts
kicked back to their own time.
The JLA goes back in time to find out what happened to Aquaman. The ancient
league kill them all, except Plastic Man, in battle. Plastic Man is turned
into stone and smashed, but doesn't actually die. He no longer makes an
appearance in this story though.
The queen absorbs the power of the ancient league and tries to take over
"our" present. She is defeated at the hands of Nightwing's JLA, the Undead
JLA, Manitou Raven and Aquaman. The End.
Mike Hall
prestorjon
cognates
in the other Algonquin languages.>>
I think you mean Algonkian or Algonquian
Duggy
Jakanapes wrote:
> Duggy wrote:
> > Jakanapes wrote:
> > > I'm not entirely sure how calling a woman a woman is an insult, though.
> > "Hey, woman come here" is.
Sorry, that I was being culturally insensitive.
In places outside the rednsck backwater you come from we acknowledge
that women have names.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
Jakanapes wrote:
> Duggy wrote:
> > Jakanapes wrote:
> > > I'm not entirely sure how calling a woman a woman is an insult, though.
> > "Hey, woman come here" is.
Sorry, that I was being culturally insensitive.
In places outside the redneck backwater you come from we acknowledge
Duggy
Jakanapes wrote:
> Duggy wrote:
> > Jakanapes wrote:
> > > I'm not entirely sure how calling a woman a woman is an insult, though.
> > "Hey, woman come here" is.
Fallen
It's hardly offensive to romanticise American Indian characters into
wanting to be more spiritual like their ancestors. Forge is a mutant
technologist - which has bog all to do with Indian Mysticism. It's his
personal background not powers which tie him to that side.
Fallen.
Fallen
Fair enough man.
Fallen.
Magnus, Robot Fighter
Do you even have the slightest clue what stereotypical means? You think
*all* Indians have spiritual ancestors? And lived in teepees? Ugh! Us
want Wompum! You're fucking hopeless.
Fallen
Yes, or my reply wouldn't have made any sense.
>You think *all* Indians have spiritual ancestors?
>
I have no way of answering that question, I would guess neither do most
people.
>And lived in teepees?
>
Do I think all american indians lived in teepees or do I think all
ancestors of american indians lived in teepees? The answers are quite
obviously different.
>Ugh! Us want Wompum! You're fucking hopeless.
>
>
You don't seem to have a point apart from desperately trying to rant
about some imagined racism.
Fallen.
Magnus, Robot Fighter
> >>
> >
> >Do you even have the slightest clue what stereotypical means?
> >
> Yes, or my reply wouldn't have made any sense.
>
> >You think *all* Indians have spiritual ancestors?
> >
> I have no way of answering that question, I would guess neither do most
> people.
>
> >And lived in teepees?
> >
> Do I think all american indians lived in teepees or do I think all
> ancestors of american indians lived in teepees? The answers are quite
> obviously different.
>
Okay. Do you think all ancestors of American Indians lived in Teepees
(tipis) ?
JJ
"Duggy" <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1138060009.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Fallen wrote:
>
>> Pocahontas was 13 or so when she stopped her father killing John Smith.
>> She never married him and married someone else 7 years later. Making her
>> around 20.
>
> Which he never mentioned in his detailled diaries of his expeditions.
>
> Then, after she became popular with the English King & Queen and died
> of small pox (and thus couldn't contradict him) he remembered her
> saving him...
>
>
Along with what... 3 other 'Indian Princesses'?
Aaron F. Bourque
> Magnus, Robot Fighter wrote:
> >You think *all* Indians have spiritual ancestors?
> >
> I have no way of answering that question, I would guess neither do most
> people.
If most people don't, and American Indians fall into "most people,"
then why does it seem that every American Indian character in comics
has spiritual ancestors or background?
That's the problem.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
robsc...@compuserve.com
days. For instance, see:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=squaw
squaw Audio pronunciation of "squaw" ( P ) Pronunciation Key
(skwô)
n.
1. Offensive. A Native American woman, especially a wife.
2. Offensive Slang. A woman or wife.
For more on this point, go to http://www.bluecorncomics.com/squaw.htm.
It's true that Firestorm is the type of character who might be ignorant
of this fact, and that Kelly might have put the words in his mouth
intentionally. If so, Kelly also could've had another character
upbraid Firestorm. Leaving the comments hanging with no critical
response tends to suggest that Kelly (like some people in this thread)
didn't know the word's current meaning.
robsc...@compuserve.com
have no mystical origin. Which isn't surprising since they're mutants.
True, there's mysticism in Forge's background, but his powers still
derive from his mutation. Similarly, I believe Moonstar was communing
with her dead grandfather when her powers kicked in, but they're still
physical rather than mystical in nature.
I understand the impulse to tie Native heroes to mysticism.
Traditionally, Indian cultures are supposed to be more spiritual than
average. Also, Indians are fighting to retain their traditional
beliefs and practices, which tends to make spirituality more prominent
in their lives. And for Indians on the rez, mysticism is an easy way
to give them powers. There aren't a lot of millionaire playboys or mad
scientists in the nation's most rural counties.
But yes, the Indian shaman superhero (e.g., Manitou Raven) is almost as
cliched as the Indian warrior superhero. I hope to create some Native
superheroes with no links to the supernatural. For instance, a Navajo
youngster whose grandfather was irradiated while mining uranium.
For a good discussion of stereotypical Indian superheroes, see
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/wingfoot.htm.
Rob
Fallen
Because there's nothing particularly wrong with grabbing story hooks
from non abusive stereotypes? It's a romanticism to draw on the
spiritual side of american indian culture rather an an abusive
stereotype. It's not exactly the same as having all the black characters
have drugs problems and a back room full of hub caps.
It's probably about the same level as having a larger percentage than in
real life of Asian characters knowing martial arts. Can you imagine
being insulted because someone assumed you knew martial arts when you
didn't? I can't.
Fallen.
Fallen
I'm gonna give ya a hook here and not bother to google. Yes, if someone
asked me to guess what American Indian ancestors lived in I'd guess
teepees or possibly mud huts.
Were there lots of 3 bedroom townhouses in ancestral times then?
Fallen.
Fallen
You only listed the first entry. The one right below it simply says...
squaw
n : an American Indian woman
Fallen.
Mike Hall
> The word "squaw" is considered a vulgarism for "Indian woman" these
> days. For instance, see:
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=squaw
> For more on this point, go to http://www.bluecorncomics.com/squaw.htm.
> It's true that Firestorm is the type of character who might be ignorant
> of this fact, and that Kelly might have put the words in his mouth
> intentionally. If so, Kelly also could've had another character
> upbraid Firestorm.
I think that Firestorm would be rightfully pissed-off if the Martian
Manhunter was mind-reading his idle sexual fantasies.
Mike Hall
Aaron F. Bourque
As Mark Waid put it in one of his JLA stories, some thoughts burn
brighter than others.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
There was a Native American officer in the Metropolis S.C.U.
miniseries. He was continually arguing with another officer
about whether the eco-terrorists they were after might have a
point. He thought they *didn't*, that the suggestion was
ludicrous, and was extremely annoyed at any attempt to bring
his ethnicity into the discussion.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"You stand as this world's champion?"
"I've no idea who I am, but you've just summed me up."
Mike Hall
> Mike Hall wrote:
>> I think that Firestorm would be rightfully pissed-off if the Martian
>> Manhunter was mind-reading his idle sexual fantasies.
> As Mark Waid put it in one of his JLA stories, some thoughts burn
> brighter than others.
This one would have been rather damp though.
Mike Hall
prestorjon
wanting to be more spiritual like their ancestors. >>
Majority romanticization of minority culture is often offensive. With
Indians in particular it often has a lot to do with stereotypes of the
noble savage. In this case it's a limiting factor. Any Native American
character has to have their ehtnicity as a major part of their hero
identity. It limits the roles that characters can play.
prestorjon
ancestors of american indians lived in teepees? The answers are quite
obviously different.>>
Actually they're not. The short answer to both is "no". Long answer
to the second is that some did live in teepees but most did not.
Native American housing ranged from the single and multi-family wooden
housing prefered in the Northeast to the urban cultures of the
Southwest and Mississippi valley.
Fallen
My point was kinda about the ambiguous nature of the word 'ancestor'.
i.e. You could also say that most american indian ancestors crawled
through the mud. Whereas the phrase 'all american indians' clearly
includes those alive today.
Fallen.
bllbickel
fungusamungus wrote:
> "Magnus, Robot Fighter." <m...@key.com> wrote in message
> | Like I said...give her a try. While you're at it go up to a black
> | woman and call her Negress.
>
> I dare you to find a black woman under thirty who even knows that that
> means.
She might never have heard it used, but I'd be surprised if she
couldn't figure out what it meant.
Bill Bickel
http://www.comicsidontunderstand.com
http://www.crimepundit.com
http://mysterybooks.allinfoabout.com
MG
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:cl9Bf.16980$0N1....@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
> Len-L wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:11:23 GMT, Fallen <fal...@ntlworld.com> opined:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Magnus, Robot Fighter. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I just started reading the TPB a friend gave me....when these issues
> >>>were published, did anyone on this Newsgroup happen to mention how
> >>>UTTERLY OFFENSIVE they are to American Indians?
> >>>
> >>>"The hottest squaw this side of Pocahontas"?????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>What's offensive about that?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >"Squaw" is an insult.
> >
> >
> >
> Not to a great many people it isn't.
Have we learned nothing from Cher's music?