I Cant Stand This Super Soap-Opera !!
Christianto
Yes we all look forward to Superman's wedding...but do we deserve to
get the crap story which is like a bloody soap-opera. Its like reading
comic about 90210 or Melrose Place !! I'm of course referring to Supes'
break-up with Lois and their eventual marriage. Does DC think we can be
fooled ?
After i've seen Lois' childish behavior that led to their break-up i
dont think Lois is suitable for Superman. He deserves someone better !
It's a mistake to characterize Lois that way just to build up this soap
opera. First, i cant accept her reason....Clark has to kill bcause of
her ? What does she think she is ? Second, did she have to jump all
around Jeff and Alpha DAYS after their break-up. What a bitch.
I think the problem is with L&C tv series which is quite a bad series
IMO. Its not about superhero (who's the villain ? Luthor...and next week
Luthor....and next month Luthor.....) but its a soap-opera with DC
characters in it. And now the tv series has influenced the comic....BAD
INFLUENCE !
I rest my case.
--
Christianto ten...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <5403va$5...@enyo.uwa.edu.au>,
Christianto <ten...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
...
> After i've seen Lois' childish behavior that led to their break-up i
>dont think Lois is suitable for Superman. He deserves someone better !
>It's a mistake to characterize Lois that way just to build up this soap
>opera. First, i cant accept her reason....Clark has to kill bcause of
>her ? What does she think she is ?
I thought that story about Supes not killing was interesting.
** SPOILERS FOR AN OLD STORYLINE **
In case anybody doesn't know what this talk of Lois being
upset about Superman not killing kill is in reference to, I will give
a quick synopsis of the storyline.
Joker had sent a poison or disease impregnated doll to Lois.
Lois foolishly kept it. When using the doll to dust, she collapsed.
After Supes discovered what was going on, he went off to Gotham and
visited Batman to discuss the situation. Joker was actually in Arkham
for once. According to comic book medicine, which can be as screwy as
comic book physics, the only way to get the antidote would be for
Supes to take so much blood from Joker that Joker would die. The idea
was that Supes had to allow Joker to be killed to save Lois. Joker,
being typically nuts, was perfectly willing to die to see Supes
corrupted into killing. With some persausion by Batman, Supes did not
kill Joker. Supes went off to stay with Lois as she died. Instead,
she recovered. Bats explained that if Supes had killed Joker to save
Lois, it would be more corrupting...more of a joke...if the killing
deed had turned out to be unneccassary after all. When Lois found all
this out, she was P.O.ed at Supes' attitude toward her! Then, Clark's
rival, the pony-tailed Jeff (or whatever his name was), proved he
would kill to protect Lois. (This made sense to me as he didn't have
heat vision or superstrength, so his shooting somebody about to shoot
Lois seems reasonable and brave for him.)
I felt Lois seemed to be filled with romantic b.s. about how
true love means being the entire focus of another person's life beyond
all other considerations. Yet, she found Supes' oath against killing
outweighed the lovey-dovey devotion stuff.
In the story where Superman died, he did supposedly "kill"
Doomsday to save the city of Metropolis. So, Supes will kill to
save his city, but not his fiancee. That's just the way it is for
Supes even if many other men would kill to save a spouse or fiancee.
I found it an interesting exploration of the limits of Clark
and Lois' relationship.
Joseph Arendt
Ulti-Matt!
Christianto wrote:
> Yes we all look forward to Superman's wedding...but do we deserve to
> get the crap story which is like a bloody soap-opera. Its like reading
> comic about 90210 or Melrose Place !!
I didn't see Lois sleeping with Jimmy or Clark learning an insightful
lesson about animal rights. I don't see the connection.
> I'm of course referring to Supes'
> break-up with Lois and their eventual marriage. Does DC think we can be
> fooled ?
How many copies of Superman #75 do you own?
> After i've seen Lois' childish behavior that led to their break-up i
> dont think Lois is suitable for Superman. He deserves someone better !
LOL.
> It's a mistake to characterize Lois that way just to build up this soap
> opera. First, i cant accept her reason....Clark has to kill bcause of
> her ? What does she think she is ?
Human.
> Second, did she have to jump all
> around Jeff and Alpha DAYS after their break-up. What a bitch.
Top flight debating there, Chris.
> I think the problem is with L&C tv series which is quite a bad series
> IMO.
I agree, but I think the series stinks for different reasons. Production
values are low, the writing is sub par, and the acting is as wooden as
this chair I'm sitting in.
> Its not about superhero (who's the villain ? Luthor...and next week
> Luthor....and next month Luthor.....) but its a soap-opera with DC
> characters in it.
Not really. And who wants to see the-villain-of-the-week-as-plot?
> And now the tv series has influenced the comic....BAD
> INFLUENCE !
Again, not really. Timing-wise, maybe.
> I rest my case.
The jury has retired for the day.
I am . . . Ulti-Matt!
Joseph T Arendt
In article <5410l5$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Mazerki <maz...@aol.com> wrote:
> I agree with both postings here, I just wanted to get one of my pet
>peeves out of the way...
>
>Joseph T Arendt wrote:
>>Joker had sent a poison...
>>Joker was actually in Arkham...
>>Supes had to allow Joker to...
>
> AUGH! THE Joker! THE Joker! Like THE Toyman and THE Flash and THE
>Martian Manhunter! His name's not "Joker," his "occupation" or "title" is
>THE Joker! ...There. *Pant pant* Sorry... Just bugs me...
>
>-Aaron!
>(I think the whole thing with Superman and Lois has gotten completely
>goofy.)
Batman is sometimes THE Batman and at others, simply Batman.
Scared crook: Oh, no! It's THE Batman!
Robin: Batman, look!
Flash is sometimes THE Flash and at others, simply Flash. I figured
Joker could be used interchangably too.
Joseph Arendt
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <96289.165...@psuvm.psu.edu>,
Aaron Thomas <ADT...@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote:
>vmil...@aol.com, VMillerNY, wrote:
>::In the story where Superman died, he did supposedly "kill"
>::Doomsday to save the city of Metropolis.
I wrote the above, not VMillerNY, who was only replying to it.
>I thought he "stopped" Doomsday. Where was it said in Supes #75
>that he _killed_ the big D?
>(I thought he just knocked him unconscious, via a Kryptonian sleeper hold.)
Nah, Doomsday was supposed to be deader than a doornail. Then
again, so was Supes. Supes got back to life with a mystical
experience involving a near-death experience with Pa Kent retrieving
Supes' spirit. I didn't mind so much because at least an explanation
of some sort was given.
Doomsday came back to life because...I dunno...I guess
somebody thought he was a cool villian. Oh, there was a miniseries I
didn't read that had the most outrageous statement of evolution
anywhere about how Doomsday continually "dies" then "comes back to
life" immune to what killed him. I once thought Star Trek was the
reigning king of bad science, but DC Comics put them to shame! I got
this evolution of Doomsday from reviews rather than the book itself,
so I may have it a little wrong. Anyway, after Supes was done with
him, Doomsday had no brainwaves, no pulse, and so on. Doomsday should
have been dead and stayed dead forever. Only, "comic book science"
allows writers to do whatever the heck they want without rhyme or
reason.
The following lines with the ">:" were by VMillerNY, though.
>:
>:And he killed the three Kryptonians from the pocket universe. I liked the
>:Lois/Joker story a lot, but I really did wonder what the big deal was.
>:Supes does kill now. Period.
And back to Aaron Thomas:
>Actually, those Kryptonians Three were why he developed his
>"I will not kill" rule in Post-Crisis continuity.
>After all, we can't have Clark parading around in a Gangbuster
>coustume all night, can we?
>
>Aaron Thomas, who says Clark doesn't kill NOW.
Not even to save Lois, which was the whole point of the Joker
issue and a disheartening surprise to Lois.
I suppose more really bad comic book science could be used to
restore the three dead Kryptonians to life, then Supes would be back
never to having killed. While retconning away Supes' having killed,
anything else unpleasant can be retconned away too. Jason Todd and
Dawn Grainger can be brought back to life. Hal Jordan can be restored
to never being Parallax and Hank Hall to never being Monarch. Hal
Jordan's drunk driving could be made never to have happened too.
Elvis' death can be prevented and he can still be singing tunes in
Vegas. Marilyn Monroe can also be brought back with an eternal youth
spell like Clark, Bruce, and especially Allan Scott so she'll never
have to get depressed about looking old. JFK's assassination can be
prevented. Hitler will never have risen to power. Everything will be
happy, happy, happy with nothing ever going wrong to upset or
disappoint anyone.
As a result, the stories would be boring as can be and so
sappily sweet that even Dorothy visiting from Oz to get the most
special present for Glinda's birthday party will gag on the
overbearing and oppressive sweetness!
I felt bringing Doomsday back to life was an act of cowardice
on the part of the powers-that-be at DC. It made the DCU a less
interesting place. I really hope Supes' killing of the three
Kryptonians is *NOT* retconned away because I feel it adds greatly to
Supes' character.
I might not be making myself clear why I feel bringing Doomsday
was a mistake.
Here is an example from a different medium. There was once an
episode of Magnum, P.I. where Magnum was out driving in his fast red
sportscar. Somebody who really didn't like Magnum came racing up and
opened began shooting at him. Magnum pulled out his semi-auto .45 and
shot back. Magnum's shot either went through or missed the other car,
hitting another car on the road, which then crashed. The person
shooting at Magnum raced off to get away from the accident. Magnum
stopped to give assistance. Given the circumstances, I don't think in
the show that Magnum was arrested and charged. Magnum did swear off
the gun. The driver in the other car was a pretty young woman. He
tried to help her with her rehab or whatever. (It has been years
since I saw the show.)
I thought this was fascinating. It was the first time I had
seen a TV program deal with the HERO making such a horrifying and
tragic mistake. By the end of the show, though, the woman had
completely healed, Magnum had discovered she wasn't an innocent
bystander after all but working with the gun-toting crook, Magnum took
up his own gun, the bad guys were arrested, and everything was back as
it ever was.
I was disappointed because such a mature, complex theme was
tossed aside for a cliched situation and an ending which left the
hero in basically the same situation as at the start of the show.
No surprise, really. Pretty much a requirement for a TV show.
Similarly, by bringing Doomsday back to life, it means
Supes didn't REALLY KILL to protect Metropolis. Whether Supes
would really kill to do that remains open-ended.
As long as those three Kryptonians remain dead, though, we do
know that at least one time, Supes DID KILL to avenge a dead planet.
Joseph Arendt
Mazerki
Mazerki
Ulti-Matt writes:
>> And now the tv series has influenced the comic....BAD
>> INFLUENCE !
>Again, not really. Timing-wise, maybe.
Er, pardon me, but the horrid teevee show HAS influenced the comic. If
you can't see it in the abysmal stories then look at Ma Kent's hairstyle,
Lois's do, and not to mention Perry White screaming "Great shades of
Elvis!" (something I NEVER saw before the horrid teevee show). At least
when a Batman movie comes out they just publish a buncha' goofy specials
and for the most part leave it out of the regular series...
-Aaron!
Aaron Thomas
vmil...@aol.com, VMillerNY, wrote:
::In the story where Superman died, he did supposedly "kill"
::Doomsday to save the city of Metropolis.
that he _killed_ the big D?
(I thought he just knocked him unconscious, via a Kryptonian sleeper hold.)
:Lois/Joker story a lot, but I really did wonder what the big deal was.
:Supes does kill now. Period.
"I will not kill" rule in Post-Crisis continuity.
After all, we can't have Clark parading around in a Gangbuster
coustume all night, can we?
Aaron Thomas, who says Clark doesn't kill NOW.
VMillerNY
::In the story where Superman died, he did supposedly "kill"
::Doomsday to save the city of Metropolis.
And he killed the three Kryptonians from the pocket universe. I liked the
Runar Ursin Reed
Joseph T Arendt wrote:
A BIG snip.
I agree with all of it, by the way.
> As long as those three Kryptonians remain dead, though, we do
> know that at least one time, Supes DID KILL to avenge a dead planet.
>
> Joseph Arendt
I thought he killed them to prevent them from getting to "DC-earth"
(This is a little confusing actually. Was SUPES in a different
dimension, in the future or what? I can't really remember...)
As I recall it, avenging the dead planet had less to do with it.
Runar
v8...@unbsj.ca
In article <5403va$5...@enyo.uwa.edu.au> ten...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Christianto) writes:
>From: ten...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Christianto)
>Subject: I Cant Stand This Super Soap-Opera !!
>Date: 15 Oct 1996 13:35:38 GMT
> Yes we all look forward to Superman's wedding...but do we deserve to
>get the crap story which is like a bloody soap-opera. Its like reading
>comic about 90210 or Melrose Place !! I'm of course referring to Supes'
>break-up with Lois and their eventual marriage. Does DC think we can be
>fooled ?
> After i've seen Lois' childish behavior that led to their break-up i
>dont think Lois is suitable for Superman. He deserves someone better !
>It's a mistake to characterize Lois that way just to build up this soap
>opera. First, i cant accept her reason....Clark has to kill bcause of
>her ? What does she think she is ? Second, did she have to jump all
>around Jeff and Alpha DAYS after their break-up. What a bitch.
> I think the problem is with L&C tv series which is quite a bad series
>IMO. Its not about superhero (who's the villain ? Luthor...and next week
>Luthor....and next month Luthor.....) but its a soap-opera with DC
>characters in it. And now the tv series has influenced the comic....BAD
>INFLUENCE !
> I rest my case.
>--
>Christianto ten...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You had a case? Maybe against your grammar teacher. Kidding! Couldn't help it.
Len Leshin
Joseph T Arendt wrote:
> The Legion got rebooted by Zero Hour, so all this pocket
> universe stuff should no longer matter. However, the current
> Supergirl (Matrix) came from the "pocket universe" and she is still
> around so it does matter after all.
I seem to remember Mike Carlin stating that Zero Hour wiped out the
Legion's memories of the pocket universe, but the pocket universe did
still happen, which is why Superman's killing of the Phantom Zone
villains, complete with the subsequent Gangbuster and Exile in Space
storylines, and the origin of matrix still exist in continuity.
--
Len L.
lle...@davlin.net
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <3264BA...@hsr.no>, Runar Ursin Reed <runa...@hsr.no> wrote:
>Joseph T Arendt wrote:
>A BIG snip.
>I agree with all of it, by the way.
>
>> As long as those three Kryptonians remain dead, though, we do
>> know that at least one time, Supes DID KILL to avenge a dead planet.
>>
>> Joseph Arendt
>I thought he killed them to prevent them from getting to "DC-earth"
>(This is a little confusing actually. Was SUPES in a different
>dimension, in the future or what? I can't really remember...)
>As I recall it, avenging the dead planet had less to do with it.
>Runar
I have been taken to task on this newsgroup because I
said the other Earth was in an "alternate reality." Apparently,
any idiot knows it was in a "pocket universe," rather than an
"alternate reality."
This "pocket universe" was created by the Time Trapper.
Superboy lived in it. Not the current Superboy with the sunglasses
and leather jacket. This was the Superboy that was the younger version
of Superman...only he wasn't.
Back when I read the Legion (reading my younger brother's
books with Grell as artist), the entire creation of the Legion was
inspired by Superboy and Superboy himself was in it. _Superboy and
the Legion of Superheroes_. Superboy, who had the adventures of
Superman when he was a boy.
Byrne eliminated Superboy by having Superman not get his
powers until adulthood. This led to a huge problem with the Legion.
So, Mon-El replaced Superboy as the inspiration, only he was named
Mon-El because Superboy (Kal-El) thought Mon-El was his brother and he
found his brother on Monday. That explanation doesn't wash without a
Superboy, so Mon-El became Valor. Valor inspired the Legion and
Superboy had nothing to do with it.
This led to other problems and predictably angered many fans.
Somehow, the Legion went back to being inspired by the same Superboy
as originally, only it was a different Superboy who was never destined
to become Superman. That is, this Superboy DIED! He died heroically,
but he did die.
The Time Trapper had created a "pocket universe" (not an
"alternate reality, remember). This "pocket universe" contained an
Earth of the Twentieth Century. It had a Krypton also, since that is
where Superboy came from. I don't know if the "pocket universe"
really contained other stars than Krypton's and our sun. Maybe the
stars were just dots painted on velvet. Anyway, whenever the
Legionaires traveled back in time to the Twentieth Century to visit
Superboy, the Time Trapper shunted them off to the "pocket universe."
The Thirtieth Century the Legion came from may have been the actual
future of the DC universe, not part of the "pocket universe."
Confused yet? Don't be. Remember, Crisis removed all the
confusion of alternate realities. No more Earth-1 Superman and
Earth-2 Superman. This is only a "pocket universe." See, a simple
change in name eliminates all confustion. Right? This is Superboy of
the Pocket Universe, a superpowered boy destined to become Superman
only he isn't, and Superman, who was never Superboy. Perfectly
obvious. I'm glad Crisis made everything so crystal clear.
The Legion got rebooted by Zero Hour, so all this pocket
universe stuff should no longer matter. However, the current
Supergirl (Matrix) came from the "pocket universe" and she is still
around so it does matter after all.
In the pocket universe, three Kryptonian criminals wiped out
all life on Earth except Superboy and Matrix...and themselves, of
course. If the Legends of the Dead Earth Annuals were set in the
pocket universe, they could be set in the current time rather than the
future. :-)
I think you are right that Superman was concerned about the
three Kryptonians getting out of the pocket universe and into the
regular DC universe. Superman wasn't going to HELP the Kryptonians by
bringing them out of the pocket universe to stand trial. That would
have been one WEIRD TRIAL! Tried for murdering people who are plainly
still alive and a planet that is still alive in the universe the trial
would take place in.
The Kryptonians were considerably more powerful than the
current DCU Superman. The Kryptonians had more the god-like powers of
pre-Crisis Superman. Since EVERYBODY else was DEAD in the pocket
universe (I don't recall if Supes knew Matrix was still alive),
Superman appointed himself judge, jury, and executioner. Superman
killed the three Kryptonians with pocket universe kryptonite. So, I'd
say the execution Superman committed was both to prevent the
Kryptonians from coming to his universe and also to avenge the dead
planet.
I'm so glad that Crisis elimininated all continuity errors
from and multiple versions of the current-time DC universe and that
Zero Hour eliminated all continuity errors and multiple versions from
the future-time DC universe. If it seems there were two Matthew
Ryders from two alternate futures in spite of Zero Hour creating only
ONE FUTURE, you must be imagining it. If it seems the "pocket
universe" was about the same as having an pre-Crisis Earth dash
letter, that just shows the readers appalling ignorance of the phrase
"pocket universe." All continuity errors and multiple universes are
gone...even if the post-Crisis, post-Zero-Hour stories prove
otherwise.
Joseph Arendt
P.S. In spite of the "superfical" similarities between an alternate
reality and the "pocket universe", I still much preferred the "pocket
universe" continuity patch to the "Superboy was really Valor" continuity
patch. _Valor and the Legion of Superheroes_ just doesn't have a good
ring to it.
David Scott Doty
ten...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Christianto) wrote:
> Yes we all look forward to Superman's wedding...but do we deserve to
>get the crap story which is like a bloody soap-opera. Its like reading
>comic about 90210 or Melrose Place !! I'm of course referring to Supes'
>break-up with Lois and their eventual marriage. Does DC think we can be
>fooled ?
> After i've seen Lois' childish behavior that led to their break-up i
>dont think Lois is suitable for Superman. He deserves someone better !
>It's a mistake to characterize Lois that way just to build up this soap
>opera. First, i cant accept her reason....Clark has to kill bcause of
>her ? What does she think she is ? Second, did she have to jump all
>around Jeff and Alpha DAYS after their break-up. What a bitch.
> I think the problem is with L&C tv series which is quite a bad series
>IMO. Its not about superhero (who's the villain ? Luthor...and next week
>Luthor....and next month Luthor.....) but its a soap-opera with DC
>characters in it. And now the tv series has influenced the comic....BAD
>INFLUENCE !
> I rest my case.
I little prematurely, IMHO. The only evidence that you presented
to show a "soap-opera" feel to the books was Lois' breaking off
of the engagement. I think this was handled in a very realistic
manner, rather than any of the bizarre stories they could have
done if they had wanted to be a soap opera. As for her reasons,
later issues showed that that was just a simple out for Lois,
while the real reason was a much deeper fear about her future
in a relationship with Clark. I don't think she "jumped around"
anyone. More like, they jumped around her, and she needed
all of the support she could get. As for your calling her
a bitch. . . sounds like a personal problem to me.
The show never claimed to be a traditional super-hero story.
The stuff I read said it would be Superman, Lou Grant, and
Moonlighting all in one. It may not be your cup of tea, but
many people like it despite the lack of flashy super-villains,
which is not the standard of quality for most people.
I think both the TV show and the comic fumbled the ball on the
wedding, for different reasons. Since the comic is what's
on topic, I'll say that yes, that's due to the show. However,
the show actually derailed the storyline you were complaining
about, so I don't think that you can justifiably blame the
show for the broken egagement. Or for the comic wedding, for
that matter. The show decided to marry them. WB executives
decided the character had to get married. The show should
derail itself to save the comic? Better that the bigwigs
had let each version do what was in its best interest.
Dave Doty
--
Dave Doty
"Oh, so *that's* how those .sig files work!"
Rafael Liriano
Len Leshin wrote:
>
> Joseph T Arendt wrote:
>
> > The Legion got rebooted by Zero Hour, so all this pocket
> > universe stuff should no longer matter. However, the current
> > Supergirl (Matrix) came from the "pocket universe" and she is still
> > around so it does matter after all.
>
> Legion's memories of the pocket universe, but the pocket universe did
> still happen, which is why Superman's killing of the Phantom Zone
> villains, complete with the subsequent Gangbuster and Exile in Space
> storylines, and the origin of matrix still exist in continuity.
>
> --
> Len L.
> lle...@davlin.net
So in this PZH Universe "who created the Pocket universe" since the time
trapper who created no longer exist. And before you say the actual Time
trapper didi it, why? What motives could have the PZH time trapper to
create the PZH- Pocket Universe ? confused yet.
RL
Jim Cannon
I don't know if it was soap-operish or not, but I will say this:
The breakup made me drop all the Superman titles.
It really bugged me that they did that. Now, I've always disliked Superman.
He was, for me, the pinacle of DC cheesiness. He was supremely powerful and
a boy scout. Very two-dimensional. Even after the Byrne re-boot I didn't care
all that much about the character. But then DC decided to kill him off.
Well, like every fanboy in the world, I determined that I *had* to have issue
#75. I even opened it and read it. And whats this -- Lois knows Clark is
Superman? When the hell did that happen? I had to know more... when the Reign
of The Supermen started, I began collecting all four titles. I was curious
how it would all play out. I started buying back issues, and I learned about
the engagement, the death of Luthor, and so on. I thought: This isn't Superman.
This is *cool*! Its different. Not what I expected.
Gradually I came to realize that *only* Clark Kent could be Superman. None of
these cheesbags could handle the job correctly. And I was glad when Clark
came back and beat the Cyborg. I was pulled in by the Big Event, and forced
to stay by all the little sub-plots. But I made one decision: as soon as
Clark and Lois were hitched, I would drop all the titles. Cold turkey. That
way, no matter what future editorial staffs did with the characters (I'm
looking forward to the 2016 reboot, how bout you?) I would always remember them
on their wedding day and be able to say: what they're doing now isn't Lois
and Clark. They're married. And they lived happily ever after.
So I sat through Dead Again. Abysmal. I put up with the Death of Clark Kent.
Hated it. I added a new quarterly title, the Man of Tomorrow. Prices went up.
And then Lois broke up with Clark in the most contrived manner, and I just
couldn't put up with it anymore. I knew the comics were going by the schedule
of the tv show, and I figured I'd have to wait until the show got canceled or
something before Lois and Clark tied the knot. I couldn't do that. The
quality of the stories had plummeted while the prices rose, and I knew there
were better comics out there to waste my cash on.
So I dropped the titles. And I got screwed, because just a few months later,
Lois and Clark *did* get married. And I missed it.
Damn DC.
Jim Cannon
x8...@music.stlawu.edu
VMillerNY
Whew! Charged up on this Superman-Killing thing, aren't you! Time to cut
back on the caffeine....
Jim Cannon
In article <543tfk$n...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
> There are some fans of pre-Bryne Superman that feel differently.
>In fact, Bizarro or Aaron has been posting that the Superman you like
>is only a malfunctioning Fortress robot pretending to be Superman.
>
> I, though, greatly prefer the post-Bryne Superman for the most
>part.
I've read this newsgroup long enough to realize that both anti-Crisis
and pro-Crisis factions exist in strong numbers. Undoubtedly, some of them
would jump on me for making such a broad generalization, but those two
groups are about what everybody boils down to, I think.
> Ah, but today's issue, the one AFTER the wedding issue, shows
>what kind of CAR Lois gets! Surely you'll have to go buy the issue now
>to find out. Sure, you'd know they live happily ever after...but what
>is Lois driving? :-) Will it have a backseat for the Superkids? These
>are important questions. Ha, ha, ha.
Is the cover foil-enhanced and glow in the dark, with a fold-out showing the
whole car? Otherwise, I won't buy it... <g>
>>So I sat through Dead Again. Abysmal.
>
> Abysmal is too weak a word for it. Dead Again caused me to
>drop all the Superman books like a hot potato!
Yeah. I came very close myself. But I tought of the wedding...
> Although I had dropped all the Superman books over Dead Again,
>I found almost every single issue of "Death of Clark Kent" in fifty
>cent or 70% off bins. Well, at that price, I reconsidered. I got
>them. I found it to be pretty decent. I'd have felt differently at
>full price, but at the price I paid...it was okay. EPILOG to "Death
>of Clark Kent" was much better than the series itself. There is one
>hilarious scene where Superman, in costume, tries to buy a cup of
>coffee and a diner. Everybody in the diner assumes the worst, as
>thought the world is about to end. That scene was so good it almost
>made the entire "Death of Clark Kent" part worthwhile.
The EPILOG was better than the series itself, I agree. That whole deal with
Lois convincing him to stay Clark was really good. And, I think, epitomized
what all the better Superman stories (that I read) were about/featured: Lois
as an inseperable part of Clark's world. And again, the breakup contradicted
that.
> I thought the break-up was handled surprisingly well,
>especially since it didn't seem the writers' hearts were really in it.
>The issue where Superman wouldn't kill Joker to save Lois was particularly
>notable, IMHO.
I didn't read much past that Joker issue. And I couldn't see myself spending
eight bucks a month anymore on stories I hated.
> The making-up on the other hand rushed by so fast it makes the
>Flash seem slow!
Yeah, and this frosted me as well. I would have preferred the comic did it
at their own pace, or else had a better knowledge of the TV show's schedule.
Then it wouldn't have been so quick and so... cheap.
> Gee, Jim, the stores here still have a huge stack of wedding
>issues and a pretty big stack of the just prior to it make-up issue.
>Yes, the breakup was patched up in a single issue. Told ya it was
>rushed.
I wasn't too sure about the availability. Where I am, the nearest comic
store is a few towns away, and I don't have a car. Plus, the shop is
very sub-par on ordering big issues. I have yet to see any Heroes Reborn
stories, for example. And I feel lucky I found Parallax: Emerald Night.
I won't get home for a few months, and I don't know if I'll be willing to
pay back issue prices for the "album." I'm still rather annoyed with the
whole storyline.
Though it would be cool to see Superman with short hair again.
Jim Cannon
x8...@music.stlawu.edu
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
I just have to say, I find this whole thread absurdly amusing.
Of *course* it's a soap opera. MANY superhero comics are structured like
soap operas.
That's why I refused to start reading 'em back in the '70s when my college
buddy Bill Marcinko kept trying to push 'em on me. I couldn't stand soap
operas when I was growing up, and I knew very well that, if I got into the
books of the time (mostly Marvel but also DC of course) I'd have to learn
all these characters and who's doing what to whom and backstories and
universes and I'd have to keep up with it every month and FORGET it.
Many soap operas, BTW, are very well written (so I hear) and feature
excellent acting.
- Elayne
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for a copy of the final issue of ()~~
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anybody!... Join the expectant crowd, gathering now!" _##_
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <543b5p$2...@lex.zippo.com>,
Jim Cannon <x8...@music.stlawu.edu> wrote:
>I don't know if it was soap-operish or not, but I will say this:
>
>The breakup made me drop all the Superman titles.
>
>It really bugged me that they did that. Now, I've always disliked Superman.
>He was, for me, the pinacle of DC cheesiness. He was supremely powerful and
>a boy scout. Very two-dimensional. Even after the Byrne re-boot I didn't care
>all that much about the character. But then DC decided to kill him off.
>
>Well, like every fanboy in the world, I determined that I *had* to have issue
>#75. I even opened it and read it. And whats this -- Lois knows Clark is
>Superman? When the hell did that happen?
Yes, Lois knowing the secret is cool and a major change from the
status quo. I like that part.
>I thought: This isn't Superman.
>This is *cool*! Its different. Not what I expected.
There are some fans of pre-Bryne Superman that feel differently.
In fact, Bizarro or Aaron has been posting that the Superman you like
is only a malfunctioning Fortress robot pretending to be Superman.
I, though, greatly prefer the post-Bryne Superman for the most
part.
>But I made one decision: as soon as
>Clark and Lois were hitched, I would drop all the titles. Cold turkey. That
>way, no matter what future editorial staffs did with the characters (I'm
>looking forward to the 2016 reboot, how bout you?) I would always remember
>them
>on their wedding day and be able to say: what they're doing now isn't Lois
>and Clark. They're married. And they lived happily ever after.
Ah, but today's issue, the one AFTER the wedding issue, shows
what kind of CAR Lois gets! Surely you'll have to go buy the issue now
to find out. Sure, you'd know they live happily ever after...but what
is Lois driving? :-) Will it have a backseat for the Superkids? These
are important questions. Ha, ha, ha.
>So I sat through Dead Again. Abysmal.
Abysmal is too weak a word for it. Dead Again caused me to
drop all the Superman books like a hot potato!
>I put up with the Death of Clark Kent. Hated it.
Although I had dropped all the Superman books over Dead Again,
I found almost every single issue of "Death of Clark Kent" in fifty
cent or 70% off bins. Well, at that price, I reconsidered. I got
them. I found it to be pretty decent. I'd have felt differently at
full price, but at the price I paid...it was okay. EPILOG to "Death
of Clark Kent" was much better than the series itself. There is one
hilarious scene where Superman, in costume, tries to buy a cup of
coffee and a diner. Everybody in the diner assumes the worst, as
thought the world is about to end. That scene was so good it almost
made the entire "Death of Clark Kent" part worthwhile.
...
>And then Lois broke up with Clark in the most contrived manner, and I just
>couldn't put up with it anymore. I knew the comics were going by the schedule
>of the tv show, and I figured I'd have to wait until the show got canceled or
>something before Lois and Clark tied the knot.
I thought the break-up was handled surprisingly well,
especially since it didn't seem the writers' hearts were really in it.
The issue where Superman wouldn't kill Joker to save Lois was particularly
notable, IMHO.
The making-up on the other hand rushed by so fast it makes the
Flash seem slow!
>So I dropped the titles. And I got screwed, because just a few months later,
>Lois and Clark *did* get married. And I missed it.
>
>Damn DC.
>
>Jim Cannon
>x8...@music.stlawu.edu
Gee, Jim, the stores here still have a huge stack of wedding
issues and a pretty big stack of the just prior to it make-up issue.
Yes, the breakup was patched up in a single issue. Told ya it was
rushed.
So, why whine? Go get the books already. :-) [Oh, my
recommendation is to skip "The Quest for Lois Lane," the single issue
that ends the break-up. It wasn't very good and all you really
need to know for the wedding is Lois and Clark are back together.]
Joseph Arendt
Joseph T Arendt
**
In article <543o3c$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
VMillerNY <vmil...@aol.com> wrote:
>Whew! Charged up on this Superman-Killing thing, aren't you! Time to cut
>back on the caffeine....
I don't like the idea of ret-conning away Superman killing
and I don't like the idea of ret-conning away Batman having a kid.
I see it as facing up to personal responsibility rather than
using the cop-out of ret-cons. Superman killed and it is in the comic
book, plain as can be. I have the issue where he kills the three
Kryptonians and I have the tradepaperback where he "kills" Doomsday.
Bruce Wayne and Talia had a kid in _Batman: Son of the Demon_. I was
given it for a Christmas present from my brother James. Talia has
Bruce's baby.
Even heroes make some bad choices. I like to see them
deal with the resulting issues rather than have a nervous editor
and writer try to convince me that the books I own, bought from
DC, don't show and say what they plainly do show and say.
Do I think it was a mistake for Bruce and Talia to have a kid?
Yes, I do. However, they did anyway. Rather than pretend the
published story didn't happen, I wish the problem would be dealt with.
Hell, their kid is in the very recent _Kingdom Come_! Oh, that's an
Elseworld so it doesn't count. Us readers are offered the cowardly,
unimaginative "solution" that the Zero-Hour changes "erased" the
entire story with the baby. A nice bit of retroactive abortion there!
Thank God these people are working in a fictional world rather than
the real one.
Do I think it was a mistake for Superman to kill the Three
Kryptonians? Yes, I do. It was an execution. It was not an accident
and not death in battle. I feel Superman had to alter his previously
established moral code to do this. However, he did it. Right or
wrong, he did it. Luckily, the Superman writers and editors have far,
far, far more backbone than those of the Bat books. The events of
this book STILL STAND IN CURRENT CONTINUITY! Despite opportunities to
erase it in Zero Hour, it wasn't erased. That takes guts on
somebody's part. The same kind of guts to allow Lois to learn Clark's
secret...not to be erased by an amnesia-kiss like in the movie and not
to be ret-conned away.
Superman shouldn't ever kill, yet he did. I think that makes
him a much more three-dimensional character.
As for Superman "killing" Doomsday, I found that not really
a mistake or change in moral code. That was death in combat...and
it wasn't REALLY a death anyway.
In summary, what I want to see is the continutity established
in the published books to be acknowledged and dealt with, not ignored,
altered, and erased on the writers' and editors' whims. If I wanted
that, I'd read MARVEL!
Joseph Arendt
exa...@nemaine.com
vmil...@aol.com (VMillerNY) writes: > Whew! Charged up on this Superman-Killing thing, aren't you! Time to cut
> back on the caffeine....
do they really need to marry off the worlds most eligible bachelor next to JFK, Jr?
Jim Cannon
In article <5445ni$o...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu says...
>>back on the caffeine....
>
>and I don't like the idea of ret-conning away Batman having a kid.
I agree. I think the Byrne reboot of the character after Crisis did a lot of
good. It changed Superman in many ways, and made him more plausible and
human that I had previously thought him. Superman wasn't God anymore, and his
parents were still around (another nice referance to his dichotomy with Batman)
and then DC eventually had Superman kill other Kryptonians and propose to
Lois and etcetera.
But, for all the good the post-Crisis reboot did, it set a dangerous precedent.
Now, whenever there's a company-wide inconsistancy (the Legion), it is
standard practice to have some kind of cosmic threat retstart everything
and supposedly "fix" all the problems. Zero Hour also gave the Batfolks an
oppurtunity to claim Bruce and Talia don't have a kid, and so on.
And, no doubt, twenty or thirty years down the line, some maverick artist or
writer will be given Superman or Batman and told: "This doesn't work anymore.
Do it again."
Jim Cannon
x8...@music.stlawu.edu
VMillerNY
Jim Cannon wrote:
::So I sat through Dead Again. Abysmal. I put up with the Death of Clark
Kent.
::Hated it. I added a new quarterly title, the Man of Tomorrow. Prices
went up.
Well put (your whole post in fact). You and I had very very similar
experiences with the Superman titles. The post-Reign issues were so far
beneath mediocre that it drove me away. They blew it! They could have
milked his death for another two years-- a la the Exile in Space -- and
made it really interesting. Instead we're reading TV soap opera
translated into comics....
I've also noticed over the past year or so that Superman has become
cheesier and squeakier-clean than ever. I suspect this is in preparation
for the upcoming movie...
Mazerki
You peoples am REAL stupid. Just wanted let you know that.
------- Bizarro No. 1 -------
(Well! Not like no-one ELSE going admit it to you face!)
Duggy
On 16 Oct 1996, Joseph T Arendt wrote:
> The Legion got rebooted by Zero Hour, so all this pocket
>universe stuff should no longer matter. However, the current
>Supergirl (Matrix) came from the "pocket universe" and she is still
>around so it does matter after all.
It shouldn't matter because they don't need Superboy anymore. But we
still need Supergirl, so it does matter. In other words, just as the
pre-Zero TT created the PU so there was a Super_boy_ the post-Zero TT will
create one so there is a Super_girl_
> I'm so glad that Crisis elimininated all continuity errors
>from and multiple versions of the current-time DC universe and that
>Zero Hour eliminated all continuity errors and multiple versions from
>the future-time DC universe. If it seems there were two Matthew
>Ryders from two alternate futures in spite of Zero Hour creating only
>ONE FUTURE, you must be imagining it.
There's only one Matthew Rider now...
> If it seems the "pocket
>universe" was about the same as having an pre-Crisis Earth dash
>letter, that just shows the readers appalling ignorance of the phrase
>"pocket universe."
It's like saying Motor-bike and Car. They are different and have
different names, but basically do the same thing... get you from place to
place.
> All continuity errors and multiple universes are
>gone...even if the post-Crisis, post-Zero-Hour stories prove
>otherwise.
Theortically all the Post-Crisis errors are gone, unfortunately some of
the writers are make post Zero-Hour errors because they don't understand
what's going on.
- Dug.
_______________________________________________________________
|STANDARD DISCLAIMER:| Paul "Duggy" Duggan. | I lost a |
| I didn't do it, | <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> | fight to |
|Nobody saw me do it,|http://www.jcu.edu.au/~coe-pad| the death |
| You can't prove | | with my |
| Anything... | Official rassm Cool person. | Evil Twin.|
|________________D_E_N_Y_________E_V_E_R_Y_T_H_I_N_G|___________|
Duggy
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Rafael Liriano wrote:
>Len Leshin wrote:
>So in this PZH Universe "who created the Pocket universe" since the time
>trapper who created no longer exist. And before you say the actual Time
>trapper didi it, why? What motives could have the PZH time trapper to
>create the PZH- Pocket Universe ? confused yet.
The Pre Zero TT created the PU so Superboy would exist.
The PostZero TT created the PU so Supergirl would exist.