baltimore Legion report
Troy
Give us the whole story!!!!
Chuck
"Troy" <fligh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10k7l55...@corp.supernews.com...
> A plea to those attending the Baltimore-con Legion Panel:
>
> Give us the whole story!!!!
Is there a panel just for discussing Legion? When I went to WonderCon here
in San Francisco, not only were they not brought up in the DC panel
discussion, but they dodged any question thrown about LSH.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Is there a panel just for discussing Legion?
Yep. KC Carlson will be talking to Mark Waid and Paul Levitz about the
past and future of the Legion of Super-Heroes. Today at 4 PM at the
Baltimore Comic-Con! :)
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Blogging at http://www.comicsworthreading.com/blog/cwr.html
James Schee
> "Chuck" <nicklow...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a panel just for discussing Legion?
>
> Yep. KC Carlson will be talking to Mark Waid and Paul Levitz about the
> past and future of the Legion of Super-Heroes. Today at 4 PM at the
> Baltimore Comic-Con! :)
I know there was probably some discussion about the new series, and
belive me I want to hear news about it too. Yet did anyone ask when or
if there would be a new volume of the LSH archives?
James
--
http://readingalong.blogspot.com/
Yes I too have a comic blog.
Samy Merchi
> Give us the whole story!!!!
The following is a report from an anonymous contributor who claims
to have been at Baltimore. I make no claims as to its veracity.
<cite>
Guest1 crashes in with news from Baltimore Con's Legion panel,
starring Mark Waid, Paul Levitz, and KC Carlson. All three were
excellent and friendly, and enthusiastic, and more than any creator
I've ever seen, Waid clearly loves these characters he's writing.
Guest1 says, "That said... Waid says it is, indeed, a reboot of
continuity. Total reboot, something like 'Ultimate Legion' post-Zero
Hour was. I know, I groaned at first, also. However, by the end of
the panel, I was incredibly swayed to his side. First of all, he
says Titans/Legion establishes a direct reason for the current
Legion continuity to end and run into the new one, and that there
will be a seven-page short story at the end of it that takes place
in the new continuity."
Guest1 says, "The general pitch of the series is to capture the
spirit of the original, but without echoing things that have been
done. This means, the characters will be the characters we love. It
will not, though, be Ultimatized, as the post-Zero Hour events were.
It's not something where you can expect anything to be the same,
according to Waid, except for the founders being the founders."
Guest1 says, "On membership: The episode starts after the Legion has
been around for a year. Waid says they're basically a bunch of
teenagers who are tired of their boring, static world that has
little human initiative. The Legion is a club for fanatics who love
super-heroes. Waid said, think about the guys in the present day who
dress up in suits of armor. Except, these young people play dress up
and go out to change their universe for the better. As far as
specific membership."
Guest1 says, "The founders won't play a large part, immediately.
Colossal Boy is Waid's favorite Legionnaire, and in the new
continuity, comes from a race of giants. His super power is to
shrink to six feet tall. He joins with the name 'Micro Lad'. And,
Waid says there are three founders; however, he also cannot comment
on if Superboy is in it. I suspect Superboy may somehow be split, or
some such thing."
Guest1 says, "As well, there will be 'cliques', among those who
joined early, those who joined later, those in similar age groups,
etc. Brainiac 5 will not be an official member, to start, but WILL
be in the book regularly as their science advisor."
Guest1 says, "Star Boy will be in. Waid says we'll have anywhere
from 18-25 members in the Legion when he starts."
Guest1 says, "Shrinking Violet: Waid says, the newer Legionnaires
have been told "There's a Legionnaire called Atom Girl," but nobody
ever sees her, and they can't figure out if the upper classmen are
just screwing around or not. So they playfully refer to this
possible Legionnaire as 'Shrinking Violet'."
Guest1 says, "No word on villains yet. Except, we will see Persuader
early."
Guest1 says, "I wanted to ask about Nemesis Kid, personally, but
forgot up until Waid had to leave. Ummmm, let's see... I dunno, he
won me over. And while I think Morrison Legion would rock, it didn't
come across as such to me. Waid said if there was a poster of the
team, we'd recognize about 50-60 percent of them from previous
versions. Umm.... Ultra Boy will be a bigger thug than we've ever
seen before, but still the Jo we know and love."
Guest1 says, "It's a complete reboot, which I know is scary, but I'm
hot for it. And I don't know a bigger Legion nerd. And, honestly, I
think I've typed everything I remember. Waid loves Bouncing Boy, and
it's Barry Kitson's dislike keeping him from enjoying it thus far."
Guest1 says, "Rather, from using Bouncing Boy in the book, thus far.
This is what I get for having this conversation in four frickin'
windows. :)"
Guest1 says, "One of the rules of the 'club' will be that they must
wear bright costumes, and must have Kid, Lass, Girl, Boy, Lad, etc,
in their name. Some of the bad guys will be villains. Some will
merely be adults who don't want the changes the Legion intends to
evoke."
Guest1 says, "They said it wasn't a reboot, but a reimagining. A
reboot is what they did post Zero Hour, where events occured
basically the same way they had before. This is all new continuity,
aside from basic concepts of characters, and the spirit of the
Legion. And, frankly, having worked in a comic shop and knowing an
owner, he would order more based on it being a reboot."
Guest1 says, "And, the crowd, initially, was kind of wary of Waid
when he said 'reboot'. BUT, by the end, out of about fifty people,
maybe two were grumbling. It sounds soooooooooooooooo awesome."
Guest1 says, "Paul Levitz was all, 'No, this is the best Legion idea
I have ever seen, it's wonderful," And, you know, he's the guy who
wrote the best Legion stuff."
<end cite>
Personally, I wish I could order a negative number of copies.
--
Samy Merchi | sa...@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"
Johanna Draper Carlson
>
> I know there was probably some discussion about the new series, and
> belive me I want to hear news about it too. Yet did anyone ask when or
> if there would be a new volume of the LSH archives?
Yes, they did ask that.
I don't mean to be coy, but I'm hoping to get my notes on the panel
typed up tomorrow and posted.
Yeechang Lee
<URL:http://www.popcultureshock.com/features/85/LegionSuperHeroes1.jpg>.
Querl looks an awful lot like Vril Dox, no?
Samy Merchi wrote:
> Guest1 says, "That said... Waid says it is, indeed, a reboot of
> continuity. Total reboot, something like 'Ultimate Legion' post-Zero
> Hour was.
Is Waid the first person in history to preside over not one, but two,
complete reboots of the same property? (And almost exactly ten years
apart, no less.)
> Guest1 says, "Paul Levitz was all, 'No, this is the best Legion idea
> I have ever seen, it's wonderful," And, you know, he's the guy who
> wrote the best Legion stuff."
I'm skeptical, but Levitz's word counts for a lot in my book.
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://www.ylee.org/blog/> PERTH ----> *
Cpu(s): 8.7% us, 4.3% sy, 86.6% ni, 0.0% id, 0.0% wa, 0.3% hi, 0.0% si
Mem: 516960k total, 514144k used, 2816k free, 7696k buffers
Swap: 2101032k total, 658576k used, 1442456k free, 154232k cached
Samy Merchi
> Querl looks an awful lot like Vril Dox, no?
He does. In fact, he looks *exactly* like Vril Dox. ;b
James Schee
> James Schee <jameswrem...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > I know there was probably some discussion about the new series, and
> > belive me I want to hear news about it too. Yet did anyone ask when or
> > if there would be a new volume of the LSH archives?
>
> Yes, they did ask that.
Yay! It has been something on my mind for a bit.
> I don't mean to be coy, but I'm hoping to get my notes on the panel
> typed up tomorrow and posted.
Aww way to build up interest in your own piece I guess.:) I guess I have
to read it to know my answer..
Laurent Lehmann
wrote in message <Xns95642076A...@130.232.1.14> :
> Personally, I wish I could order a negative number of copies.
I'm optimistic, it can't be worse than the last reboot, even with
Waid still around. Actually, it looks quite interesting - maybe he's
learned from his past mistakes...
--
Laurent
James Schee
> Personally, I wish I could order a negative number of copies.
I don't know, sounds like it is going back to the original "clubhouse"
type concept, which could be a lot of fun.
Dan McEwen
news:f0uek0pfirmtji89s...@4ax.com:
Waid's Legion stuff was actually among the best of the reboot, IMO. It
was after he left that things went downhill.
Chuck
> Guest1 says, "As well, there will be 'cliques', among those who
> joined early, those who joined later, those in similar age groups,
> etc. Brainiac 5 will not be an official member, to start, but WILL
> be in the book regularly as their science advisor."
Personally, this is the most disappointing thing I've heard about the new
Legion, other than it being a reboot. No Brainiac 5 as a teammate? I liked
the most recent Legion run, and Brainy is my favorite. Very disappointing
news for me.
Carmen Williams
On the one hand, it doesn't thrill me either. On the other hand, a)
at least he's in the book, and b) it says "to start." Maybe that'll
change.
(Also, while I'm aware of the perils in putting too much trust in
covers, it seems unlikely that he'd be *that* prominent on the cover
of the first issue if they didn't have plans to use him a lot.)
Carmen W.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Aww way to build up interest in your own piece I guess.:) I guess I have
> to read it to know my answer..
It's up at
http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=002794
Nick Eden
>> Guest1 says, "Paul Levitz was all, 'No, this is the best Legion idea
>> I have ever seen, it's wonderful," And, you know, he's the guy who
>> wrote the best Legion stuff."
>
>I'm skeptical, but Levitz's word counts for a lot in my book.
As publisher he has to say these things. But perhaps I'm being
cynical. It sounds bloody ghastly.
Brian Doyle
I liked the last reboot, it got me buying LSH regularly again, which was
quite a feat. The Legion needed a reboot more than any other title. The
history was too convoluted, the tech had the unfortunate problem of being
constantly being beaten by the real stuff, and they'd let the characters
age.
Leviathan being "Micro Lad of a race of giants", is cute but something of a
one off joke.
This looks to be a lot more self consciously retro with twee "Everyone must
end in Lass, Lad, Boy or Girl" codenames (Case in point, what if, like Gates
or Sensor (Who I still hold to be a far more interesting character as a
snake than she'd been as a huamnoid for years), you're technically
neither?). I'll take a look at it, and it HAS to be better than DNA, but I
don't think I'll be a regular buyer... I hope I'm wrong, but I don't get
much of a buzz off of this one.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> This looks to be a lot more self consciously retro with twee "Everyone must
> end in Lass, Lad, Boy or Girl" codenames (Case in point, what if, like Gates
> or Sensor (Who I still hold to be a far more interesting character as a
> snake than she'd been as a huamnoid for years), you're technically
> neither?).
Kid! You can be Sensor Kid!
> I'll take a look at it, and it HAS to be better than DNA, but I
> don't think I'll be a regular buyer... I hope I'm wrong, but I don't get
> much of a buzz off of this one.
Maybe you had to be there, but Waid was so excited and enthusiastic
about this that I'm looking forward to trying it. I still don't get why
this is supposed to be different from the Zero Hour reboot, but I'm
willing to give it a shot. If nothing else, it's got to be better than
the terrible DNA Star Trek retreads.
Dan McEwen
news:jameswremovemeschee-...@news2.west.earthlink.net:
>>Samy Merchi <sa...@iki.fi> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I wish I could order a negative number of copies.
>
> I don't know, sounds like it is going back to the original "clubhouse"
> type concept, which could be a lot of fun.
I've heard we're gettings the Boy/Girl/Lad/Lass naming back, which is
something I kind of missed. (I hated Inferno over Sun Boy, and much
preferred Colossal Boy to Leviathan.)
Dan McEwen
news:zlR1d.691$gG4...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
It only says "to start" which suggests he'll join eventually. Also, the
cliques idea seems to be something picked up from the Levitz era. We
had the Mon/Shady/Tinya/Jo clique, then there was Vi/Ayla
(pre-relationship), and certainly the Garth/Imra/Rokk set. It seems
quite reasonable to me.
Dan McEwen
news:johannaNOSPAM-0A4...@individual.net:
> "Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> I'll take a look at it, and it HAS to be better than DNA, but I
>> don't think I'll be a regular buyer... I hope I'm wrong, but I don't
>> get much of a buzz off of this one.
>
> Maybe you had to be there, but Waid was so excited and enthusiastic
> about this that I'm looking forward to trying it. I still don't get
> why this is supposed to be different from the Zero Hour reboot, but
> I'm willing to give it a shot. If nothing else, it's got to be better
> than the terrible DNA Star Trek retreads.
The whole reboot just never quite worked for me. I never fully managed
to let go of the previous version. One of my favorites with the reboot
was Kinetix, but she was unused, underused, and badly used so ofter
later on that I no longer cared for her.
Troy
I'm looking forward to this series mostly because of the obvious energy
going into it. I do wish something could be done without a complete reboot,
but I'm keeping a very open mind and hoping (even expecting) the best.
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in
message news:johannaNOSPAM-8A5...@individual.net...
Chuck
> > Aww way to build up interest in your own piece I guess.:) I guess I have
> > to read it to know my answer..
>
> It's up at
> http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=002794
>
Great piece. I'm extremely disappointed they are doing this reboot, but feel
a little better about it now. I really just don't understand why they think
their concept is that much different from the current Legion, i.e., why it
demands a clean slate.
R. Tang
Chuck <nicklow...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Great piece. I'm extremely disappointed they are doing this reboot, but feel
>a little better about it now. I really just don't understand why they think
>their concept is that much different from the current Legion, i.e., why it
>demands a clean slate.
Because, I think, while Abnett and Lanning did some good stories,
they ultimately weren't Legion stories. Although they starred characters
from Legion stories, the themes they took and the treatment undercut what
the Legion is at heart: the power of youth to band together to create a
more utopian future.
Think they spent far too much time on the darker side of the 31st
Century and had the Legion win through tactical methods (through use of
their powers) and ignored the strategic use of the Legion (as an idea and
concrete representation of their optimistic ideals). They ignored the
inherent drama that the reboot set up (an embryonic United Planets) in
favor of material that was somewhat contrived and cool for coolness'
sake. And the way they did this made it impossible, in a lot of ways, to
revisit those themes.
Not to mention there was a LOT of wonky science there.....
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I'm extremely disappointed they are doing this reboot, but feel
> a little better about it now.
As before, I'm looking forward to the reboot, but then, I strongly
disliked what it's replacing.
> I really just don't understand why they think their concept is that
> much different from the current Legion, i.e., why it demands a clean
> slate.
I tend to think that reboots happen more for external reasons (e.g.
potential new readers are turned off by their perceptions of the
existing book) than internal (e.g. there's a problem with the concept).
"Troy" <fligh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Johanna. Great report.
You're welcome. Thanks for reading.
> I'm looking forward to this series mostly because of the obvious energy
> going into it. I do wish something could be done without a complete reboot,
> but I'm keeping a very open mind and hoping (even expecting) the best.
That's a good way to look at it.
The only thing that worried me was when Didio started talking about
wanting to be one of Wizard's top ten teams. I don't think chasing that
kind of audience is a good thing, and I think that's what got the book
into the current mess it's in. But I'm looking forward to seeing what
Waid and Kitson do.
Tom Galloway
I think you're being cynical. Paul's style hasn't been a Stan/Jemas/Quesada
hypefest for large parts of DC's output. While he's not going to come out in
public and say he doesn't like something specific (at least not until long
after the thing isn't being published or is under different creators or a
significantly different style), he's also not going to say something's
great just to hype it. Given that DC didn't have a booth at Baltimore,
I think it's significant that he was both there and actively participating
on a Legion panel.
It's quite possible you won't like this approach. But I don't see any
reason, based on his behavior for a number of years, to think Paul would
be lying about his opinion of the book or just trying to hype it for the
sake of hyping it.
tyg t...@panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Nick Eden
>It's quite possible you won't like this approach. But I don't see any
>reason, based on his behavior for a number of years, to think Paul would
>be lying about his opinion of the book or just trying to hype it for the
>sake of hyping it.
I hope you're right. Really I do.
All I'm seeing right now though is that every time Waid is involved
with the Legion he re-boots it. And every time there seems to be less
connection to what I think of as the Legion. Three times now. This is
getting silly.
Michael Pastor
Maybe that's the point.
Realistically, what the Legion was, shouldn't have survived conceptually,
beyond the intital idea which spawned it: A Club for Super-Heroes Who
Worshipped Superboy.
Conceptually, what Waid is presenting is the original concept, down to the
Core, of what the Legion was. Times have changed (and the Times that
spawned the Times have Changed). Waid is presenting a version of the
Legion that harkens back to the Roots, but without the Baggage.
I also think he is presenting an 'out' with the concept. I bet ever
incarnation of the Legion is legit (if the cover of the x-over with
different versions of the Fatal Five means anything). Down to Mordruverse.
This is just the Waid rendention, in a radically different execution, but a
thematically sound concept nontheless. If it fails, so be it. So did the
TMK run. So did the DnA run. So did the Reboot One. I can't say that any
rendition of the Legion really failed. They all added to the mythos. There
are parts of each that I wouldn't do without.
If Waid wants to be the Roman to the Greek, so be it. I'm interested.
michael j pastor
Michael S. Schiffer
news:2qvpvgF...@uni-berlin.de:
>...
> Realistically, what the Legion was, shouldn't have survived
> conceptually, beyond the intital idea which spawned it: A Club
> for Super-Heroes Who Worshipped Superboy.
I'd quibble with that. People who worship Superboy probably
wouldn't have treated him the way the Legion did in their first
appearance. They were a club of heroes who found inspiration in
Superboy and admired him, but were perfectly capable of dealing
with him as an equal in his presence. Even their early adventures
weren't primarily about the Legion's reaction to Superboy. (Except
their debut, where they put him through a typical Silver Age
theater of humiliation little different from their later treatment
of Jimmy Olsen.)
> Conceptually, what Waid is presenting is the original concept,
> down to the Core, of what the Legion was. Times have changed
> (and the Times that spawned the Times have Changed). Waid is
> presenting a version of the Legion that harkens back to the
> Roots, but without the Baggage.
>...
Reboots have been popular in superhero comics for many years, and
it may well work commercially this time. But I've never really
seen the attraction. If the "baggage" is so limiting, then artists
should by all means do something different-- drawing on earlier
inspiration to be sure, but without going out of their way to raise
expectations they're not interested in fulfilling. Superman and
Batman may have gotten the secret identity schtick from the Scarlet
Pimpernel or Zorro, but Siegel and Shuster didn't try to write
about how he was the Scarlet Pimpernel, except from Krypton, and an
American reporter instead of an English nobleman, and he's fighting
criminals instead of agents of the French republic.
The whole concept of a reboot seems to be to have one's cake and
eat it-- creators want to generate the interest and play off the
existing audience for a character or concept, but bristle at the
idea that the audience has the right to any expectations just
because they happen to be using certain names or costumes or
concepts. Anything the author likes is part of the core concept,
anything he dislikes is discardable baggage.
Is the concept of young heroes in the infinite future so narrow
that there's room for only one exploration of the concept, under
one name, in one time period, with endless but ultimately minor
variations on one cast? It's as if instead of getting Wonder Woman
and Starman and Batman back in the Golden Age, National/All-
American had chosen to debut "Superman, rebooted as a woman",
"Superman, rebooted as an Earthman with a cosmic rod", "Superman,
rebooted as a crimefighting detective". (And instead of each
version getting an independent supporting cast and mythology we'd
see that in one Louis Lane is a reporter from Stars and Stripes who
keeps getting rescued by Superwoman, and in another Jimmy Olsen is
a lab assistant who can send a signal to Superman's gravity rod,
while in a third, Perry White is the crusty police commissioner.)
This particular reboot doesn't especially matter to me. I wasn't
reading the last iteration of LSH and it'll take some strong
positive opinions here to get me to pick this one up. And
certainly there's nothing that says that a particular rebooted
series couldn't be a good thing. (Though in my experience, the
best superhero stories tend to be those which either make use of
characters' long histories or, at the other end, those which
represent the artist's own characters and situations, however
influenced by previous work.) But the reboot idea itself strikes
me as creativity on training wheels, lacking confidence either to
contribute to an existing structure without kicking it over or to
strike out on one's own to build something new.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Dan McEwen
news:ucblk0l50nlidnpim...@4ax.com:
According to Barry Kitson, Waid and Kitson were asked to reboot the
Legion. As he saw it, someone would have done it if they hadn't. I
don't think it was Waid's idea to reboot the Legion in any instance
(from preboot to TMK to reboot to what's coming now); he just happened
to be present.
Sean Daugherty
wrote:
While I think the revised names were a decidedly mixed bag ("Live
Wire" was the only one I ever really thought worked), I'm not sure
going back to the originals is much of a solution, either, especially
when the biggest argument for doing so is a vague sort of nostalgia
kitsch thing.
Personally, I think most of the -Boy and -Girl names work fine, but
the most of the -Lad and -Lass ones seem so anachronistic that they're
more likely to alienate anyone who doesn't have a deep emotional
attachment to 'em. Plus, the whole retro-movement ideal that seems to
underpin Waid's approach here doesn't really justify such names: the
Lad/Lass naming convention was pretty much unique to LSH, and unless
these thirtieth century teens are modelling themselves on old
Shooter-era issues of "Adventure Comics" (which would admittedly be
interesting in a weird, mobius strip metatextual way, I suppose), it
doesn't follow that they'd really be in-vogue... :-)
Dan McEwen
news:m49nk0dhb2qnn18k1...@4ax.com:
> Personally, I think most of the -Boy and -Girl names work fine, but
> the most of the -Lad and -Lass ones seem so anachronistic that they're
> more likely to alienate anyone who doesn't have a deep emotional
> attachment to 'em. Plus, the whole retro-movement ideal that seems to
> underpin Waid's approach here doesn't really justify such names: the
> Lad/Lass naming convention was pretty much unique to LSH, and unless
> these thirtieth century teens are modelling themselves on old
> Shooter-era issues of "Adventure Comics" (which would admittedly be
> interesting in a weird, mobius strip metatextual way, I suppose), it
> doesn't follow that they'd really be in-vogue... :-)
Who's to say that style of naming doesn't come back in 1000 years? It
could be that people are calling young people "lad" and "lass" again. I
also can't see how it would be any more alienating to people today that
it would have been when I was growing up - no one used those terms then,
either.
Samy Merchi
> Maybe you had to be there, but Waid was so excited and enthusiastic
> about this that I'm looking forward to trying it.
Yes well Chuck Austen is excited and enthusiastic about his own stuff too.
Do you look forward to trying his stuff too?
Samy Merchi
> Chuck <nicklow...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>why they think their concept is that much different from the current
>>Legion, i.e., why it demands a clean slate.
> Because, I think, while Abnett and Lanning did some good stories,
> they ultimately weren't Legion stories.
So? I'm sure there have been periods in Superman history too when writers
have written stories that could've fit, say, Captain Marvel just as well.
However, this did not demand a blank slate. You can get back to writing
Superman stories after the generic stories are done.
> Although they starred
> characters from Legion stories, the themes they took and the treatment
> undercut what the Legion is at heart: the power of youth to band
> together to create a more utopian future.
The Legionnaires were young, and they stopped Robotica, therefore they
used the power of youth to create a more utopian future. They deposed
McCauley, ended the Vyrgan exploitation with the footsteps and in every
way went towards making the UP a brighter place to live. I'm not sure how
you can claim that they weren't creating a more utopian future.
> Think they spent far too much time on the darker side of the 31st
> Century and had the Legion win through tactical methods (through use
> of their powers) and ignored the strategic use of the Legion (as an
> idea and concrete representation of their optimistic ideals).
Again, just about any superhero and superhero team has had periods when
they've won through one or the other. There have been Superman stories
where he's won with his super-strength or heat vision, and there have
been Superman stories where he's won by being an inspiration. These
approaches are not mutually exclusive by any means. And they certainly
don't mean that after doing it one way, you can't anymore do it the other
way.
> They
> ignored the inherent drama that the reboot set up (an embryonic United
> Planets) in favor of material that was somewhat contrived and cool for
> coolness' sake. And the way they did this made it impossible, in a lot
> of ways, to revisit those themes.
I see no reason why a writer, post-Simone, would be unable to explore the
drama of an embryonic United Planets, if that's what they wanted to do.
Sure, DnA didn't dwell much on the political possibilities, but there's
nothing preventing a subsequent writer from being able to explore things
like that to his heart's content.
There was no need for a blank slate. Things could easily have been
continued from where they were left.
> Not to mention there was a LOT of wonky science there.....
I guess we should reboot every comic out there then.
Samy Merchi
>> I'm extremely disappointed they are doing this reboot, but feel
>> a little better about it now.
>
> As before, I'm looking forward to the reboot, but then, I strongly
> disliked what it's replacing.
You can look forward to next stories even without the need for a reboot.
I'm sure those who disliked Gruenwald's CAPTAIN AMERICA were looking
forward to the Waid/Garney CAPTAIN AMERICA. Look, no reboot needed!
>> I really just don't understand why they think their concept is that
>> much different from the current Legion, i.e., why it demands a clean
>> slate.
> I tend to think that reboots happen more for external reasons (e.g.
> potential new readers are turned off by their perceptions of the
> existing book) than internal (e.g. there's a problem with the
> concept).
I'm fairly sure you're right about that, yeah.
During the previous reboot, there really was a problem with the concept,
and the TMK era had really gone too far afield of what the Legion should
be, and it was extremely difficult to fix things then. I could see the
justification for the reboot then. I didn't *want* it then, but I could
*understand* it.
This reboot, I don't want, and I can't understand it either. There's no
real in-concept need for it.
Michael Pastor
> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:2qvpvgF...@uni-berlin.de:
>> ...
>> Realistically, what the Legion was, shouldn't have survived
>> conceptually, beyond the intital idea which spawned it: A Club
>> for Super-Heroes Who Worshipped Superboy.
>
> I'd quibble with that. People who worship Superboy probably
> wouldn't have treated him the way the Legion did in their first
> appearance.
Uh, you don't know many teen-agers, do you? ;-)
They were a club of heroes who found inspiration in
> Superboy and admired him, but were perfectly capable of dealing
> with him as an equal in his presence.
Don't take the worship thing that literally, and I totally agree with you
otherwise.
Even their early adventures
> weren't primarily about the Legion's reaction to Superboy. (Except
> their debut, where they put him through a typical Silver Age
> theater of humiliation little different from their later treatment
> of Jimmy Olsen.)
No, but every time he was there, they constantly referred to him along the
lines of 'the greatest of us'
>
>> Conceptually, what Waid is presenting is the original concept,
>> down to the Core, of what the Legion was. Times have changed
>> (and the Times that spawned the Times have Changed). Waid is
>> presenting a version of the Legion that harkens back to the
>> Roots, but without the Baggage.
>> ...
>
> Reboots have been popular in superhero comics for many years, and
> it may well work commercially this time. But I've never really
> seen the attraction. If the "baggage" is so limiting, then artists
> should by all means do something different-- drawing on earlier
> inspiration to be sure, but without going out of their way to raise
> expectations they're not interested in fulfilling.
I think the powers that be realized that this rebooted legion was stuck - in
a constant comparison of : is this like the original time line or not? A
third version changes all that.
Superman and
> Batman may have gotten the secret identity schtick from the Scarlet
> Pimpernel or Zorro, but Siegel and Shuster didn't try to write
> about how he was the Scarlet Pimpernel, except from Krypton, and an
> American reporter instead of an English nobleman, and he's fighting
> criminals instead of agents of the French republic.
You're kinda supporting my position with that paragraph.
>
> The whole concept of a reboot seems to be to have one's cake and
> eat it-- creators want to generate the interest and play off the
> existing audience for a character or concept, but bristle at the
> idea that the audience has the right to any expectations just
> because they happen to be using certain names or costumes or
> concepts. Anything the author likes is part of the core concept,
> anything he dislikes is discardable baggage.
Boy, sounds like writing for serialized fiction to me.
>
> Is the concept of young heroes in the infinite future so narrow
> that there's room for only one exploration of the concept, under
> one name, in one time period, with endless but ultimately minor
> variations on one cast?
No, hence the third version.
But the reboot idea itself strikes
> me as creativity on training wheels, lacking confidence either to
> contribute to an existing structure without kicking it over or to
> strike out on one's own to build something new.
A reboot does exactly the latter.
michael j pastor
Johanna Draper Carlson
> According to Barry Kitson, Waid and Kitson were asked to reboot the
> Legion. As he saw it, someone would have done it if they hadn't. I
> don't think it was Waid's idea to reboot the Legion in any instance
> (from preboot to TMK to reboot to what's coming now); he just happened
> to be present.
There was something in my notes about "as directed by Didio" around the
bit about "writing the book as if it had started fresh in 2004", but I
couldn't exactly remember what was said, so I left it out of the formal
report.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in
> >
> > disliked what it's replacing.
>
> You can look forward to next stories even without the need for a reboot.
I could, but since I disliked what came immediately before, I also like
the idea of wiping it out and starting fresh.
> During the previous reboot, there really was a problem with the concept,
> and the TMK era had really gone too far afield of what the Legion should
> be
Oh, you're not referring to the immediately previous reboot (Legion
Lost), but the one explicitly referred to as such. I was saying the same
thing about that era, that DNA had gone too far afield.
I also disagree with you that the TMK era wasn't "true Legion" -- it's
what got me to become a huge fan, though, so of course we'll see it
differently.
> This reboot, I don't want, and I can't understand it either. There's no
> real in-concept need for it.
There never is, since this is comics. Any concept can be revised with
time travel or reincarnation or some such event. That's why I was
talking before about reboots being driven by external reasons.
In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales Didio is
talking about wanting, they need something like that.
> > Maybe you had to be there, but Waid was so excited and enthusiastic
> > about this that I'm looking forward to trying it.
>
> Yes well Chuck Austen is excited and enthusiastic about his own stuff too.
> Do you look forward to trying his stuff too?
Austen and Waid have very different track records. Waid has previously
and skillfully revitalized at least one superhero concept. Austen has
written nothing worth reading.
And the key moments I've seen of Austen's interviews, he's been
mischaracterizing and attacking the fans; I wouldn't term that
excitement or enthusiasm.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> > they ultimately weren't Legion stories.
>
> So? I'm sure there have been periods in Superman history too when writers
> have written stories that could've fit, say, Captain Marvel just as well.
> However, this did not demand a blank slate. You can get back to writing
> Superman stories after the generic stories are done.
I think Roger was saying not that the stories were generic, but that
they were almost contrary to the concept. Not neutral, but anti-Legion.
Although perhaps I'm reading that through the filter of my own feelings.
Nick Eden
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>Austen and Waid have very different track records. Waid has previously
>and skillfully revitalized at least one superhero concept.
Out of interest, which? I find for the most part his writing is
strangely pedestrian given the gushing praise he regularly receives
on-line.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
> >Austen and Waid have very different track records. Waid has previously
> >and skillfully revitalized at least one superhero concept.
>
> Out of interest, which?
I was thinking of the Flash, the first time around.
> I find for the most part his writing is strangely pedestrian given
> the gushing praise he regularly receives on-line.
I find in general that superhero comic writing is so poor that what
would be merely acceptable in other fields is praised (and over-praised)
online, but Waid wouldn't be my poster boy for that. There are other,
more obvious examples.
I think Waid tells a good superhero story, and he has the added
advantage of being a fanboy, which makes him seem like a lot of his
audience.
Michael S. Schiffer
> Michael S. Schiffer wrote:
>> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:2qvpvgF...@uni-berlin.de:
>>> ...
>>> Conceptually, what Waid is presenting is the original concept,
>>> down to the Core, of what the Legion was. Times have changed
>>> (and the Times that spawned the Times have Changed). Waid
>>> is presenting a version of the Legion that harkens back to the
>>> Roots, but without the Baggage.
>>> ...
>> Reboots have been popular in superhero comics for many years,
>> and it may well work commercially this time. But I've never
>> really seen the attraction. If the "baggage" is so limiting,
>> then artists should by all means do something different--
>> drawing on earlier inspiration to be sure, but without going
>> out of their way to raise expectations they're not interested
>> in fulfilling.
> I think the powers that be realized that this rebooted legion
> was stuck - in a constant comparison of : is this like the
> original time line or not? A third version changes all that.
Any group called the Legion of Super-Heroes with a cast including
Brainiac 5 and Ultra Boy is going to invite comparison with the
original (plus all the subsequent variants). If the idea is for it
to be treated as something new, then the easiest way would be to do
something new-- say, something as different from (and as similar
to) the Legion as the X-Men were from the Doom Patrol, or Infinity,
Inc. was from the Teen Titans.
> Superman and
>> Batman may have gotten the secret identity schtick from the
>> Scarlet Pimpernel or Zorro, but Siegel and Shuster didn't try
>> to write about how he was the Scarlet Pimpernel, except from
>> Krypton, and an American reporter instead of an English
>> nobleman, and he's fighting criminals instead of agents of the
>> French republic.
> You're kinda supporting my position with that paragraph.
In what way? This concept seems to be to a new group of future
teen heroes what "Zorro, but with a motorcar" might have been to
Batman. That's not to say it won't work-- pretty much anything, if
done well enough, can work. But compared either with building on
something that's had many years to grow and develop or telling a
wholly new story that's personal to the author, it strikes me as a
shallow exercise, lacking in the basic potential of either of the
other approaches.
(But hey, what do I know? Peter Jackson evidently thinks the world
needs a third version of "King Kong", and he's got more of the
planet's entertainment dollars than I ever will.)
>> The whole concept of a reboot seems to be to have one's cake
>> and eat it-- creators want to generate the interest and play
>> off the existing audience for a character or concept, but
>> bristle at the idea that the audience has the right to any
>> expectations just because they happen to be using certain names
>> or costumes or concepts. Anything the author likes is part of
>> the core concept, anything he dislikes is discardable baggage.
> Boy, sounds like writing for serialized fiction to me.
In other examples I can think of of serialized fiction (movie
serials, soap operas, magazine series) there's plenty of bad or
nonexistent continuity and discarding and introduction of
characters, but AFAIK they tend not to start over again on day one
every few years.
>> Is the concept of young heroes in the infinite future so narrow
>> that there's room for only one exploration of the concept,
>> under one name, in one time period, with endless but ultimately
>> minor variations on one cast?
> No, hence the third version.
So it's not going to be called the Legion of Super-Heroes, not
going to be a thousand years in the future, and won't involve a
cast prominently featuring many of the same or similar names?
That's not the impression I got.
> But the reboot idea itself strikes
>> me as creativity on training wheels, lacking confidence either
>> to contribute to an existing structure without kicking it over
>> or to strike out on one's own to build something new.
> A reboot does exactly the latter.
How so? It's another Legion of Super-Heroes, with lots of variants
on previously existing characters and lots of riffs and nods to the
previous Legion(s) (the Boy/Girl/Lad/Lass names, for example).
Good or bad, that's hardly striking out on its own.
Nick Eden
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> Nick Eden <ni...@pheasnt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Austen and Waid have very different track records. Waid has previously
>> >and skillfully revitalized at least one superhero concept.
>>
>> Out of interest, which?
>
>I was thinking of the Flash, the first time around.
Never really got that one myself, but then I was (and remain) a
gushing Loebs fanboy. Flash never seemed to me like it needed
revitalisation damnit!
>> I find for the most part his writing is strangely pedestrian given
>> the gushing praise he regularly receives on-line.
>
>I find in general that superhero comic writing is so poor that what
>would be merely acceptable in other fields is praised (and over-praised)
>online, but Waid wouldn't be my poster boy for that. There are other,
>more obvious examples.
Hard to argue with that.
George Grattan
Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
> In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
> beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales Didio is
> talking about wanting, they need something like that.
Just think it might be worth noting that it wasn't all *that* long ago
(relatively speaking) that the same message could be effectively
conveyed by a mere change in creative teams.
In fact, I remember getting that message loud and clear when Levitz and
Broderick, and then Levitz and Giffen, took over the concept from Conway
et al.
Obviously, the market has changed on this fact as it has with so many
others. I suppose I understand why reboots are deemed necessary from a
marketing standpoint. I suppose I'll never quite get behind them as an
artistic one.
But I'm not really the target audience anymore, which is fine by me. The
post-ZH reboot broke all sense of continuity I had with the characters
and concept. Good stories followed in that first year or so, sure, but
they weren't both good Legion stories (to me) and good stories, "merely"
the latter. (Conversely, much of what came out prior to the ZH-reboot
were both bad stories and bad Legion stories, but I'd lived through
Conway, so that wasn't as notable.) I'll be picking up the new series
because I'm a fan of Waid and Kitson's work together on various
projects--not at all because it's a Legion book. That ship sailed, for
me, a long, long time ago.
Michael S. Schiffer
wrote in news:johannaNOSPAM-634...@individual.net:
>...
> In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in
> at the beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales
> Didio is talking about wanting, they need something like that.
Did they? Skimming DC's top-selling books (for July, since that's
what came up in my Google search :-) ), I'm not seeing a lot that
started with a recent reboot. The team books seem to be series like
Titans and JLA and JSA, which have all been privileged to share DC's
current approach to continuity but haven't, AFAIK, begun with
"together for the first time" restarts. DC's usual approach up
until the recent Doom Patrol startup was to put in a big-name
creative team and bring various "classic" characters back into the
mix. Is there reason to think that wouldn't have worked here?
(Presumably, that was where things were going with the [re-]addition
of Superboy to the Legion.)
As I've mentioned, I have no emotional investment in the postboot
Legion-- which, I guess, will be needing a different name to
distinguish it now. :-) Didio could give them to Howard Chaykin
for a Twilight sequel, and I'd care only regarding the secondary
effects (I see no reason for people here that I respect to be
pained, and I don't think the world needed Chaykin's first Twilight
series let alone a second.) And I've already talked about what I
think of reboots as a matter of craft. But even as a commercial
step, I wonder if it was really necessary.
Michael S. Schiffer
> On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 07:58:06 -0400, Johanna Draper Carlson
><johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
>> Nick Eden <ni...@pheasnt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>>> >Austen and Waid have very different track records. Waid has
>>> >previously and skillfully revitalized at least one superhero
>>> >concept.
>>> Out of interest, which?
>>I was thinking of the Flash, the first time around.
> Never really got that one myself, but then I was (and remain) a
> gushing Loebs fanboy. Flash never seemed to me like it needed
> revitalisation damnit!
>...
I'd agree with that. I liked the first part of Waid's run too, but
Messner-Loebs brought me back to the Flash after I lost interest in
the Baron run. I also thought the transition was handled reasonably
well-- I was sorry to lose Messner-Loebs' supporting cast (and I
think there should have been at least some indication of their
"getting on a bus" to explain their sudden absence), but at least
Waid didn't kill them off spectacularly. (That this constitutes
praise says something about the state of superhero comics, but
unfortunately nothing surprising.) Still, that was following a
strong run with another strong run rather than revitalizing a
moribund character. (At least storywise-- I have no idea what sales
were doing under either writer.)
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
> > In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
> > beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales Didio is
> > talking about wanting, they need something like that.
>
> Just think it might be worth noting that it wasn't all *that* long ago
> (relatively speaking) that the same message could be effectively
> conveyed by a mere change in creative teams.
I'm not sure that's ever been the case with the Legion.
With Batman, for example, if someone is attracted by a new writer, that
person will likely feel that they know enough about the character and
concept to get by. With Legion, there are always new team members to get
in the way.
> they weren't both good Legion stories (to me) and good stories, "merely"
> the latter.
Hopefully, we'll all find these to be both. Or we'll try three issues
and move on. :)
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
> The team books seem to be series like Titans and JLA and JSA, which
> have all been privileged to share DC's current approach to continuity
> but haven't, AFAIK, begun with "together for the first time" restarts.
Titans sure tried with that whole "never again" Nightwing thing, in my
opinion.
Michael S. Schiffer
wrote in news:johannaNOSPAM-8C7...@individual.net:
>...
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> The team books seem to be series like Titans and JLA and JSA,
>> which have all been privileged to share DC's current approach
>> to continuity but haven't, AFAIK, begun with "together for the
>> first time" restarts.
> Titans sure tried with that whole "never again" Nightwing thing,
> in my opinion.
Bad characterization and inconsistent writing doesn't constitute a
reboot. (Though given the nature of a number of reboots, I can
certainly understand mentally juxtaposing them. :-) ) I assume Dick
didn't have to be introduced to his ex-teammates when they
reorganized. (Or did he?)
George Grattan
Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
> George Grattan <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>>
>>>In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
>>>beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales Didio is
>>>talking about wanting, they need something like that.
>>
>>Just think it might be worth noting that it wasn't all *that* long ago
>>(relatively speaking) that the same message could be effectively
>>conveyed by a mere change in creative teams.
>
>
> I'm not sure that's ever been the case with the Legion.
Shooter's return, Cockrum's arrival, Grell's arrival, Levitz's return,
Giffen's returns--all of these sent the message that "something
exciting" was beginning. But the best example is the one I already
offered: after years of Conway's version of the Legion as "X-Men Lite"
or "JLA in the Future", after the convoluted silliness of the Dark
Man/Tharok stories and, ye gods, the Grimbor/Reflecto/Superboy saga, the
takeover of the new Levitz/Broderick/Giffen (on backups at first) team
absolutely, positively sent the message that this was an exciting time
to (re)start reading the Legion. No new title, no new volume, no title
change (not even a logo change, at first), and no reboot. Just fresh
creative energies, and of the kind that kept readers coming back.
Now, I know the market doesn't work that way anymore and that more than
a creative team change for the Legion is quite possibly necessary from
the promotional standpoint. But I think the law of diminshing returns
regarding reboots and new volumes is already well established, too, so I
think we're in a bad place all around.
>
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Now, I know the market doesn't work that way anymore
Exactly what I was going to say. With the possible exception of
"Giffen's return" (since I'm not sure which one you're referring to),
weren't all of these pre-Crisis? That was an eon ago, commercially
speaking.
> and that more than a creative team change for the Legion is quite
> possibly necessary from the promotional standpoint.
I'm glad we agree on this, anyway. :)
> But I think the law of diminshing returns regarding reboots and new
> volumes is already well established, too, so I think we're in a bad
> place all around.
I know, a reboot just makes the next one easier to do. But as I said
before, I don't mind at all wiping Legion Lost and following out of
existence, and I look forward to seeing what two good creators do on the
title.
George Grattan
Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
> George Grattan <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Now, I know the market doesn't work that way anymore
>
>
> Exactly what I was going to say. With the possible exception of
> "Giffen's return" (since I'm not sure which one you're referring to),
When he came back to the Baxter title circa issue #50 through 64.
> weren't all of these pre-Crisis? That was an eon ago, commercially
> speaking.
Most of 'em were pre-Crisis, yes, except for Giffen's second run. But
you're right: that was in another country, and besides the wench is dead.
>
>
>>But I think the law of diminshing returns regarding reboots and new
>>volumes is already well established, too, so I think we're in a bad
>>place all around.
>
>
> I know, a reboot just makes the next one easier to do.
And the fact that it's not the first one makes it less interesting, too.
But as I said
> before, I don't mind at all wiping Legion Lost and following out of
> existence, and I look forward to seeing what two good creators do on the
> title.
>
I'll settle for looking forward to seeing what good stories Waid and
Kitson can tell (again) in the medium, regardless of title. As I've had
trouble explaining elsewhere, I just won't be responding to this as the
Legion.
In a way, I suppose, that's the best DC can hope for from a old fart
fan like me on this particular project, that I'd be drawn to it by the
records of the creators and that I'd already be so divorced from some
prior sense of investment in the concept that I'll be ablet to assess
this more fairly than I might have been able to do with the first
reboot, when the "pain" was fresher.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> In a way, I suppose, that's the best DC can hope for from a old fart
> fan like me on this particular project, that I'd be drawn to it by the
> records of the creators and that I'd already be so divorced from some
> prior sense of investment in the concept that I'll be ablet to assess
> this more fairly than I might have been able to do with the first
> reboot, when the "pain" was fresher.
Sounds like everyone will be happier that way. :)
Sean Daugherty
wrote:
>Sean Daugherty <sean...@speakeasy.net> wrote in
Well, my point, really, was that "lad" and "lass" was never in vogue
to begin with. How much superheroes you know outside of the LSH (or
clear parodies of the concept) went by that particular naming
convention? I mean, one could make the argument that a writer could
come up with a plausible reason why people would, but my
counter-argument would be: why bother when the only plausible reason
for doing so is to appeal to a dwindling retro-kitsch market?
Sean Daugherty
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
>beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales Didio is
>talking about wanting, they need something like that.
But will it work? I know that's very likely the reason the reboot is
being justified at DC, but I've seen little to indicate that reboots
do anything serious to increase sales. On the occassions when reboots
have increased sales, it almost always seems to have more to do with
factors entirely unrelated to the reboot itself, such as getting a big
name writer or artist involved, or simply replacing an unpopular
creative team.
James Schee
> James Schee <jameswrem...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:jameswremovemeschee-...@news2.west.earthlink.net:
>
> >>Samy Merchi <sa...@iki.fi> wrote:
> >
> >> Personally, I wish I could order a negative number of copies.
> >
> > I don't know, sounds like it is going back to the original "clubhouse"
> > type concept, which could be a lot of fun.
>
> I've heard we're gettings the Boy/Girl/Lad/Lass naming back, which is
> something I kind of missed. (I hated Inferno over Sun Boy, and much
> preferred Colossal Boy to Leviathan.)
Me too, plus they get to the true heart of what the characters powers
are. Which for new readers, espeically any younger ones, is probably
needed on a book wtih the cast the size of LSH.
James
--
http://readingalong.blogspot.com/
Yes I too have a comic blog.
Dan McEwen
news:johannaNOSPAM-A13...@individual.net:
> Nick Eden <ni...@pheasnt.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Austen and Waid have very different track records. Waid has
>> >previously and skillfully revitalized at least one superhero
>> >concept.
>>
>> Out of interest, which?
>
> I was thinking of the Flash, the first time around.
I did like his work on Flash, but he quickly drove the Speed Force into
the ground.
Realdanl01
concept.>>>>
<<<Out of interest, which?>>>
<<I was thinking of the Flash, the first time around. >>
See, and here was me, a big Flash fan (I think it was my favorite title at the
time) watching Waid systematically dismantle everything that made the book
diverse and interesting for me, replacing it with an inane, poorly defined
speed power fest, replete with nostalgia for which I had no nostalgia. And all
the while, people were telling me what a great thing it was Mark Waid was
writing!
Enh, to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to.
-Dan'L
John Duncan Yoyo
<GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>> George Grattan <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>>>
>>>>In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
>>>>beginning of something exciting.TogetthekindofsalesDidiois
>>>>talking about wanting, they need something like that.
>>>
>>>Just think it might be worth noting that it wasn't all *that* long ago
>>>(relatively speaking) that the same message could be effectively
>>>conveyed by a mere change in creative teams.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure that's ever been the case with the Legion.
>
>Shooter's return, Cockrum's arrival, Grell's arrival, Levitz's return,
>Giffen's returns--all of these sent the message that "something
>exciting" was beginning. But the best example is the one I already
>offered: after years of Conway's version of the Legion as "X-Men Lite"
>or "JLA in the Future", after the convoluted silliness of the Dark
>Man/Tharok stories and, ye gods, the Grimbor/Reflecto/Superboy saga, the
Wasn't Reflecto Roy Thomas? Boy I wish he had lasted longer.
Anything over Conway although I do like his Law & Order:CI stuff on TV
now.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Brought to you by the Binks for Senate campaign comittee.
Coruscant is far, far away from wesa on Naboo.
Murray
> > > Because, I think, while Abnett and Lanning did some good stories,
> > > they ultimately weren't Legion stories.
> >
> > So? I'm sure there have been periods in Superman history too when writers
> > have written stories that could've fit, say, Captain Marvel just as well.
> > However, this did not demand a blank slate. You can get back to writing
> > Superman stories after the generic stories are done.
>
> I think Roger was saying not that the stories were generic, but that
> they were almost contrary to the concept. Not neutral, but anti-Legion.
> Although perhaps I'm reading that through the filter of my own feelings.
I think that is what he was saying also. I don't understand it... but
I agree that that is what he was saying. Myself, I found D&A to be
telling stories which reminded me in many ways of Levitz' time on the
book. And his stories were about as respectful of the Legion concept
as there can be.
murr
George Grattan
John Duncan Yoyo wrote:
>
>
> Wasn't Reflecto Roy Thomas?
Only partially. Conway began the storyline, and took it through the
Grimbor battle and the "Big Reveal" that Reflecto had the Superboy
costume on underneath; Thomas came in for the two or three issue
resolution that established that Jo Nah was in Superboy's head, took the
team back to 20th Century Smallville (yay, Insect Queen!), and had
Superboy rejoin the team. Thomas was pretty clear in the letter columns
that he was batting clean-up on that story.
Boy I wish he had lasted longer.
I'm really, really glad he didn't. I love lots of Roy's work, especially
on the JSA and All-Star Squadron, but I think he would have been
fundamentally ill-suited to the Legion over the long term. Yeah, it's
odd that he did many Legionesque things well with the All-Stars, but
there's something I just can't put my finger on that tells me his Legion
would have been...off. Far better that we got Levitz's return (and
Thomas' work on characters he prefered) in the period--best of both worlds.
> Anything over Conway although I do like his Law & Order:CI stuff on TV
> now.
Conway wrote some wonderful comics in the 70s and 80s and doesn't
deserve the (seemingly) universally bad rep he's got now; he wrote some
particularly fine JLA stories, many great Firestorm tales, perfectly
good Batman stories, etc. (to say nothing of his Marvel work). But he
sure didn't do his best work on Legion.
On the other hand: even though I bought my first SLSH in the Bates/Grell
era, and picked up the book semi-regularly through Levitz's first run
(Earthwarth and Omega, especially), it was during Conway's run that I
became a regular reader. So he was doing *something* right, from where I
sat--it wasn't until later, really, that I began to see just how
ill-suited many of his plots and characterizations were for the Legion.
>
Hal Shipman
<johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> George Grattan <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>> > In short, a reboot sends a signal to readers that they can be in at the
>> > beginning of something exciting. To get the kind of sales Didio is
>> > talking about wanting, they need something like that.
>>
>> Just think it might be worth noting that it wasn't all *that* long ago
>> (relatively speaking) that the same message could be effectively
>> conveyed by a mere change in creative teams.
>
>I'm not sure that's ever been the case with the Legion.
I vote with George here, even on the specific moment he cites in
another post. I grew up on the Legioin, working my way through a
friend's Adventure series (starting when I was 9 - well in the
original demographic) and then hopping on to the current stuff right
when they started in Superboy ("Plunder Ploy of the Fatal Five").
But I dropped it a few years later, when the stories just became
unreadable. Things like the bit where they're all really in their
30's, but they just look young. Crap like that. At the time, I was a
lot more driven by artists, too.
But when I heard Broderick was taking over, whom I loved on Firestorm,
I picked it up and was completely hooked. I was on board all the way
until Legion on the Run.
>With Batman, for example, if someone is attracted by a new writer, that
>person will likely feel that they know enough about the character and
>concept to get by. With Legion, there are always new team members to get
>in the way.
I disagree on this one. The concept pushes it. I expected new
characters to show up. It kept the mix interesting.
Hal.
I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"
Hal Shipman
<_h...@bizarrosquiddies.org> wrote:
A little more clarification here:
>
>But I dropped it a few years later, when the stories just became
>unreadable. Things like the bit where they're all really in their
>30's, but they just look young. Crap like that. At the time, I was a
>lot more driven by artists, too.
I picked up or read a friends copy occasionally, but was realy turned
off. I think I'm in the miniority in that I hated Earthwar, Omega,
the Super-Assassins and Reflecto.
So, I really don't think that a reboot is in any way necessary. One
thing I HATE about reboots (even things like the Ultimate line) is
that there's the constant, "When are we going to see x?" questions.
And they almost always show up. Either literally, which is boring, or
"tweaked" to make them "cooler," which is annoying. In the latter
case, I always wonder, if you really didn't like that character so
much, then why the hell didn't you just create a brand new one?
So, I think that Mark's "re-imagining" seems far enough away from a
literal reboot that I'm interested in it. It's just not the Legion to
me. But it could be really fun.
Murray
> On the other hand: even though I bought my first SLSH in the Bates/Grell
> era, and picked up the book semi-regularly through Levitz's first run
> (Earthwarth and Omega, especially), it was during Conway's run that I
> became a regular reader. So he was doing *something* right, from where I
> sat--it wasn't until later, really, that I began to see just how
> ill-suited many of his plots and characterizations were for the Legion.
that's exactly the way it was for me, too. He must have done
soemthing right... and for me, that last year that he wrote the team
was probably the best of his run... we had some neat little stories
being told with an emphasis on characterization that hadn't previously
been there. I'm thinking of Shady's and Tyroc's friendship, Garth's
feelings of inadequacy as team leader, Tinya and Jo's story through
his death, death again and then return as Reflecto. Lots of great
character moments and some cool moments and villains.
murr