LSH: AOL Chat for 7/25/96 with McCraw
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Tom McCraw (LSH/L* co-plotter/colorist) was the guest on America
Online's Legionnaires Chat for Thursday, July 25, 1996. Legion
of Super-Heroes Chat is held every Tuesday in the DC Comics
Online area of AOL at 6:00 p.m. EST. Legionnaires Chat is held
every Thursday in the same area at 10:00 p.m. EST. (Keyword: DC
CHAT.) Regular guests include Tom Peyer, Tom McCraw, Roger
Stern, Mark Waid, Jeff Moy, Ron Boyd, KC Carlson and Mike
McAvennie.
DISCLAIMER - Information presented herein is not guaranteed to be
reliable. Due to the nature of the chats, misinterpretations of
the creators' comments do occur. No wagering.
SPOILERS - Information that tends to spoil current or upcoming
issues is located toward the end of this report. No spoiler
space separates such spoiler information.
SUBSCRIPTIONS - If you'd like to subscribe (or unsubscribe) to
these chat reports, please send me an e-mail at
"tro...@indirect.com".
GRAPHICS - If you want to subscribe to Lev Kalman's weekly
humorous LSH pic, send the message "subscribe lev-pics" in the
body of an e-mail to "majo...@idyllmtn.com". You'll receive a
MIME-encoded pic in your virtual mailbox every week.
===============
Tom uses mostly Dr. Martin's when coloring. He also uses colored
pencils, markers, and watercolors. He called himself a member of
the older generation of colorists, but he also does some computer
coloring work.
Tom was currently working on plots for L* #45 and LSH #88.
Tom and KC Carlson had been considering ideas for the cover to L*
#50. Tom thought painted or wraparound covers were good ideas.
Pencils for the LSH Annual are by Mike Collins. Pencils for the
L* Annual are by several pencillers, including Dan Jurgens. The
L* Annual features XS.
Tom would like to see the Legion done by Industrial Light and
Magic.
Tom wasn't aware of any upcoming Legion merchandise.
Tom opines that the Legion could defeat the Borg.
Tom believed that Science Police Officer Zendak would eventually
appear in the Legion books.
There are no plans for a Bizarro Legion in the 20th century, but
Roger Stern and Tom keep chuckling over the idea of doing the
story.
Tom thought that a Legion vs. Cyborg story was a good idea.
When asked what Invisible Kid does in his spare time, Tom
indicated that Lyle is always a man with a mission.
Tom wasn't sure how far Triad's bodies could separate from each
other. He didn't think that one Triad could be separated for a
long time in the 20th century.
Tom responded "maybe" when asked if the Fatal Five was appearing
in L* soon.
The connection between Impulse and the LSH will be explored soon.
XS has told Impulse about the Legion.
Tom's story for SHOWCASE '96 #8 was originally intended to be a
Gates' solo story.
Tom didn't know who was winning the Legion leader election. He'd
asked to be kept in suspense on the voting results.
Kelley Jones is scheduled to do at least 8 pages of LSH #87,
which include the Deadman appearance.
Gates will be in for a lot of culture shock during the 20th
century storyline. Of the 20th century Legionnaires, Ultra Boy
will adjust the easiest because Rimbor was a tough place to grow
up and its very similar to 20th century Earth.
There have been talks with Dan Jurgens about a possible Teen
Titans/LSH meeting, but nothing is planned for now.
There is no ending for the 20th century storyline planned. The
creators want to keep the fans guessing about when the story will
end.
Tom had suggested the idea of Computo to Tom Peyer, and Peyer
liked the idea. He pointed out that Computo in the 20th century
was only a possibility as most of the 20th century storylines are
tentative.
Tom was not the person that made the decision to kill Leviathan.
Andromeda will not show up during the funeral sequence in L* #41
because she's busy elsewhere.
Tom had seen Jeff Moy's pencilled pages for L* #43 (the Tryout
issue), and thought that the issue would be a lot of work to
color.
Tom indicated that Dream Girl was now known as Dreamer, and would
be a guest in the Legion books.
Dragonmage will try out for the Legion in L* #43. Polar Boy also
appears in L* #43. The Amazers will appear on the cover. Tom
indicated that there will be a lot of reappearances in L* #43.
He refused to disclose which members would be joining, but he did
indicate that there would be three new members by the end of L*
#43.
Lume will not be in L* #43. Tom thinks Lume is a different type
of character that it would be fun to have appear again.
One of the Legionnaires will be wearing a new uniform soon. He
wouldn't disclose whether it was a 20th century or 30th century
member.
LSH #88 features a visit from Impulse and the Legion setting up
temporary Headquarters.
LSH #45 features the return of a pre-Zero Hour villain.
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"Apathy is power, and absolute apathy corrupts absolutely."
LLL!
David J. Snyder
In article <1.5.4.16.1996080...@indirect.com>,
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>
>Tom uses mostly Dr. Martin's when coloring. He also uses colored
He colors with shoes?
-Dave
--
"Listen to yourself. How could you be so stupid? People don't
come back from the dead." "... the Blood Syndicate ain't over yet.
It just stopped for a while, is all."
-Dogg, Blood Syndicate #35
Mrmagu5437
> Dragonmage will try out for the Legion in L* #43. Polar > Boy also
appears in L* #43. The Amazers will appear on > the cover.
I can't wait for this issue...
Welcome to the Elmohouse
"T. Troy McNemar, Esq." <tro...@indirect.com> writes:
> Tom opines that the Legion could defeat the Borg.
Naturally. They already have, twice, in Superboy 197 and in early v3.
> Kelley Jones is scheduled to do at least 8 pages of LSH #87,
> which include the Deadman appearance.
Funky. I prefer Garcia-Lopez's Deadman, though. JLGL's Deadman looks
like an aerialist; KJ's looks like a zombie. Still, KJ has a very
interesting style and I'll enjoy seeing his take on the Legion.
(I want a LSH Gallery!)
> Tom indicated that Dream Girl was now known as Dreamer
Urgh. I'm a rotten old hidebound traditionalist and I want the original
name, dang it!
> Dragonmage will try out for the Legion in L* #43.
Please don't let him in. If we have to go with an Asian stereotype, let's
at least go with the traditional Asian stereotype, Karate Kid :-)
--
"It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties."
--James Madison
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Rick Jones
Welcome to the Elmohouse (mor...@riph5.rice.edu) wrote:
> "T. Troy McNemar, Esq." <tro...@indirect.com> writes:
> > Tom indicated that Dream Girl was now known as Dreamer
> Urgh. I'm a rotten old hidebound traditionalist and I want the original
> name, dang it!
Depends on the characterization and the way her powers work. "Dream
Girl" had the double meaning of "she dreams" and "she's a girl guys dream
about." Dreamer just means "she dreams." If they move away from the
"she's a babe" (which was later given the "but she's really smart and
competant and the bubblehead schtick was just an act" bit tacked on -
though she always was a scientist) and emphasize her powers and
abilities over her looks, I won't complain, even a little. Besides,
in any incarnation, Tinya's much cuter than Nura. :>
> > Dragonmage will try out for the Legion in L* #43.
> Please don't let him in. If we have to go with an Asian stereotype, let's
> at least go with the traditional Asian stereotype, Karate Kid :-)
Who's to say we can't have both? I liked Dragonmage, though they needed
to define his powers. I don't like "I can do anything" mages.
Catspaw can fall off a bridge, tho.
--
Rick Jones This universe contains puzzles beyond the ken of
ri...@blkbox.com science. We must expect encounters that are not
Mey...@aol.com merely strange and mysterious, but downright goofy.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ -Andrew Solberg
Ben Weiss
>Tom McCraw (LSH/L* co-plotter/colorist) was the guest on America
>Online's Legionnaires Chat for Thursday, July 25, 1996. Legion
>of Super-Heroes Chat is held every Tuesday in the DC Comics
>Online area of AOL at 6:00 p.m. EST. Legionnaires Chat is held
>every Thursday in the same area at 10:00 p.m. EST. (Keyword: DC
>CHAT.) Regular guests include Tom Peyer, Tom McCraw, Roger
>Stern, Mark Waid, Jeff Moy, Ron Boyd, KC Carlson and Mike
>McAvennie.
>
>DISCLAIMER - Information presented herein is not guaranteed to be
>reliable. Due to the nature of the chats, misinterpretations of
>the creators' comments do occur. No wagering.
>
>SPOILERS - Information that tends to spoil current or upcoming
>issues is located toward the end of this report. No spoiler
>space separates such spoiler information.
>
>SUBSCRIPTIONS - If you'd like to subscribe (or unsubscribe) to
>these chat reports, please send me an e-mail at
>"tro...@indirect.com".
>
>GRAPHICS - If you want to subscribe to Lev Kalman's weekly
>humorous LSH pic, send the message "subscribe lev-pics" in the
>body of an e-mail to "majo...@idyllmtn.com". You'll receive a
>MIME-encoded pic in your virtual mailbox every week.
>
>===============
>
>Andromeda will not show up during the funeral sequence in L* #41
>because she's busy elsewhere.
Long as they've figured out where, and show us before too long.
>
>Tom indicated that Dream Girl was now known as Dreamer, and would
>be a guest in the Legion books.
Heh--cool. I don't know if I can totally trust that "guest" thing
until after L* #43, though.
>
>Dragonmage will try out for the Legion in L* #43. Polar Boy also
>appears in L* #43. The Amazers will appear on the cover. Tom
>indicated that there will be a lot of reappearances in L* #43.
>He refused to disclose which members would be joining, but he did
>indicate that there would be three new members by the end of L*
>#43.
Of which we know two are female. We could do worse than Dragonmage,
long as he gets out of the way before it's Mysa's turn to join,
although somebody was right about the stereotypes in his character.
Polar Boy would be great too, although I'd guess the creators will
maintain his original rejection as part of his legend. We know
there's a brand new character, who will more than likely be a female
(and the one who wears nothing but an L* belt). Dragonmage takes care
of the character from _Kingdom Come #1_, and Dreamer could also fill
that role. So who does that leave for the other female slot? Comet
Queen has been suggested--perhaps Shady (who also was in _KC_?
>One of the Legionnaires will be wearing a new uniform soon. He
>wouldn't disclose whether it was a 20th century or 30th century
>member.
The obvious choice is Violet.
>
>LSH #45 features the return of a pre-Zero Hour villain.
One question for the writers to answer: What happened to Mano at the
end of the Fatal Five story? He's probably still pardoned... (It
would be quite a curve if *he* tried out in L* #43!)
Ben
Welcome to the Elmohouse
ri...@blkbox.com (Rick Jones) writes:
[Talking about Nura]
> "she's a babe" (which was later given the "but she's really smart and
> competant and the bubblehead schtick was just an act" bit tacked on -
> though she always was a scientist)
She was also introduced as being enough on the ball to manipulate the
Legion into doing exactly what she wanted; she was never much of a
bubblehead.
--
"Wendy 2099: Wendy the Bad Little Witch. Wendy as you've never seen her
before! Plenty of spandex and action! Look for the Cry for Dawn crossover."
--Lance Smith
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Welcome
to the Elmohouse) wrote:
>"T. Troy McNemar, Esq." <tro...@indirect.com> writes:
>> Kelley Jones is scheduled to do at least 8 pages of LSH #87,
>> which include the Deadman appearance.
>Funky. I prefer Garcia-Lopez's Deadman, though.
I've since heard that Jones had to back out of LSH #87 due to time
commitments. Garcia-Lopez pages are never unwelcome, though.
>> Tom indicated that Dream Girl was now known as Dreamer
>Urgh. I'm a rotten old hidebound traditionalist and I want the original
>name, dang it!
Well, you convinced me! :)
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"Chalk it up to experience."
--Death, "Maskerade"
LLL!
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, ri...@blkbox.com (Rick Jones)
wrote:
>Catspaw can fall off a bridge, tho.
Not just any bridge--it has to be a lethal fall.
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"For every mad scientist who's had a convenient thunderstorm just on
the night his Great Work is finished and lying on the slab, there
have been dozens who've sat around aimlessly under the peaceful stars
while Igor clocks up the overtime."
--N. Gaiman and T. Pratchett, "Good Omens"
LLL!
Johanna Draper
In article <1996Aug...@riph7.rice.edu>,
Welcome to the Elmohouse <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>ri...@blkbox.com (Rick Jones) writes:
>She was also introduced as being enough on the ball to manipulate the
>Legion into doing exactly what she wanted;
Manipulation has much more to do with an understanding of psychology (which
it makes sense that a precog would have) than with intelligence. I don't
see that you can conclude anything about the latter from her introduction.
Johanna
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu
(Johanna Draper) wrote:
>Manipulation has much more to do with an understanding of psychology (which
>it makes sense that a precog would have) than with intelligence.
Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
psychology?
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"And there's this damn cat they've discovered that you can put in a
box and
it's dead and alive at the same time. Or something."
--Archchancellor Ridcully, "Lords and Ladies"
LLL!
charyma
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>>psychology?
>
>result. IMO, anyway.
>
For those purposes does it matter if she has foreknowledge of the
outcome? Surely she could see the same patterns in her own life experience.
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"At this point I am simply unwilling to bet against Phil Jackson and
Michael Jordan. I mean, at this point, why bother?" -- Chris Maka on whether
the Bulls can contend in 1996-1997.
Yeechang Lee
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote regarding Dream Girl:
> Manipulation has much more to do with an understanding of psychology
> intelligence. I don't see that you can conclude anything about the
> latter from her introduction.
Would using Naltorian science to change Lightning Lass's powers qualify?
--
http://www.columbia.edu/~ylee/ _. icbm://40.83.-73.91/
__./ |
/___. |___
PERTH------>\*./
Jeremy Billones
In article <4u84fl$3...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>>>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>>>psychology?
>>
>>Because she would be more aware of patterns, seeing both an action and its
>>result. IMO, anyway.
>
>For those purposes does it matter if she has foreknowledge of the
>outcome? Surely she could see the same patterns in her own life experience.
Not necessarily. Knowing the ending *beforehand* is a valuable tool.
It's like watching a movie for the second time, so to speak.
Jeremy Billones bill...@primenet.com
Objective Reality Isn't Go Caps & Orioles! ISTJ USSF Certifiable
"[Literary-minded] men choose _Hamlet_ because every man sees himself
as a disinherited monarch. Women choose _Alice_ [in Wonderland] because
every woman sees herself as the only reasonable creature among crazy
people who think they are disinherited monarchs." (swiped from rasftvb5m)
Welcome to the Elmohouse
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
> Welcome to the Elmohouse <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>>She was also introduced as being enough on the ball to manipulate the
>>Legion into doing exactly what she wanted;
>
I don't think so. What connection does precognition have with psychology?
Precognition might allow one more insight into what people do, not why.
Understanding why people do what they do is also certainly a kind of
intelligence.
> than with intelligence. I don't
> see that you can conclude anything about the latter from her introduction.
In any case, the deviousness of a manipulator is certainly a kind of
intelligence, but that's beside the point; the point is that, from the
beginning, Nura was portrayed as a person who had a hold on what was going
on. She was only rarely (if ever) portrayed like a bimbo.
--
"...it was as if the spirit of Gary Groth suddenly took over my hands--I had
this uncanny urge to grab a thesaurus and find synonyms for `puerile snot.' "
--Rogers Cadenhead
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Johanna Draper
In article <4u7iel$b...@news.goodnet.com>,
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>psychology?
Because she would be more aware of patterns, seeing both an action and its
result. IMO, anyway.
Johanna
Johanna Draper
In article <4u84fl$3...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>>>psychology?
>>
>>Because she would be more aware of patterns, seeing both an action and its
>>result. IMO, anyway.
>
Yes, but not nearly as easily or as often.
Johanna
Mrmagu5437
You know, my favorite "Cameo" character in the Legion is Insect Queen. Is
their any chance that she might be one of the new members?!? I think it
is about time (30 years) that she was given a chance to prove herself.
charyma
Jeremy Billones <bill...@Primenet.Com> wrote:
>charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>>T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>>>>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>>>>psychology?
>>>
>>>Because she would be more aware of patterns, seeing both an action and its
>>>result. IMO, anyway.
>>
>>outcome? Surely she could see the same patterns in her own life experience.
>
>Not necessarily. Knowing the ending *beforehand* is a valuable tool.
>It's like watching a movie for the second time, so to speak.
Hmm, this seems a rather fatalistic approach. What use is she if her
visions are always *exactly* true in a detailed fashion?
charyma
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>>T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>>>>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>>>>psychology?
>>>
>>>Because she would be more aware of patterns, seeing both an action and its
>>>result. IMO, anyway.
>>
>
Would you please expand on this?
Poison Elmos
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (charyma) writes:
> Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>>>Why does it make sense that a precog would have an understanding of
>>>psychology?
>>
>>Because she would be more aware of patterns, seeing both an action and its
>>result. IMO, anyway.
>
It also matters whether the foreknowledge is continuous or sporadic;
if the latter, then seeing an event beforehand leads to no better
comprehension that seeing it as it happens, it's just that the memory shows
up at a different time. If the former, then perhaps. It is certainly
possible to write a continuous precog in many different ways.
--
"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy."
--Kurt Vonnegut
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Johanna Draper
In article <4uaaca$3...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
>>>Surely she could see the same patterns in her own life experience.
>>
>
>Would you please expand on this?
No need, Jeremy did it for me. It's a much better learning experience to
see the cause and the result closer together.
Johanna
charyma
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>>charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>>>Surely she could see the same patterns in her own life experience.
>>>
>>>Yes, but not nearly as easily or as often.
>>
>>Would you please expand on this?
>
>No need, Jeremy did it for me. It's a much better learning experience to
>see the cause and the result closer together.
But doesn't this make unwarranted assumptions about the nature and detail
of her precognition?
daniel Laflin
In article <4u91un$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mrmag...@aol.com (Mrmagu5437) writes:
>From: mrmag...@aol.com (Mrmagu5437)
>Subject: Re: LSH: AOL Chat for 7/25/96 with McCraw
>Date: 6 Aug 1996 23:18:47 -0400
>You know, my favorite "Cameo" character in the Legion is Insect Queen. Is
>their any chance that she might be one of the new members?!? I think it
>is about time (30 years) that she was given a chance to prove herself.
There is no Insect queen.
the pre boot remake of superman removed Superboy,
the post boot legion, has that same superman who never was a superboy,
and so there never was a lana lang taken to 30th century by superboy
all that stuff was destroyed in the CRISIS, and the remake of superman.
Permission IS NOT granted to include
my email name in any Mailing lists
unless I EXPLICITLY request it.
Daniel McEwen
daniel Laflin wrote:
>
> In article <4u91un$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mrmag...@aol.com (Mrmagu5437) writes:
> >From: mrmag...@aol.com (Mrmagu5437)
> >Subject: Re: LSH: AOL Chat for 7/25/96 with McCraw
> >Date: 6 Aug 1996 23:18:47 -0400
>
> >You know, my favorite "Cameo" character in the Legion is Insect Queen. Is
> >their any chance that she might be one of the new members?!? I think it
> >is about time (30 years) that she was given a chance to prove herself.
>
> There is no Insect queen.
>
> the pre boot remake of superman removed Superboy,
> the post boot legion, has that same superman who never was a superboy,
> and so there never was a lana lang taken to 30th century by superboy
> all that stuff was destroyed in the CRISIS, and the remake of superman.
>
saw Star Boy's brief return to Xanthu saw Insect Queen. She's not Lana
Lang, but she *is* Insect Queen.
--
Daniel
djmc...@ix.netcom.com
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, djla...@ids.net (daniel Laflin)
wrote:
> There is no Insect queen.
One whole Amazer retroactively eliminated by fan decree. Everyone take
white out to your copy of LSH #82!
My turn: There is no Tangleweb.
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"Entropy has us outnumbered."
--"So You Want To Be A Wizard"
LLL!
scott e. johnson
>> Welcome to the Elmohouse <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>>>She was also introduced as being enough on the ball to manipulate the
>>>Legion into doing exactly what she wanted;
>>
>> Manipulation has much more to do with an understanding of psychology (which
>> it makes sense that a precog would have)
>
>I don't think so. What connection does precognition have with psychology?
>Precognition might allow one more insight into what people do, not why.
>Understanding why people do what they do is also certainly a kind of
>intelligence.
>
>> than with intelligence. I don't
>> see that you can conclude anything about the latter from her introduction.
>
>In any case, the deviousness of a manipulator is certainly a kind of
>intelligence, but that's beside the point; the point is that, from the
>beginning, Nura was portrayed as a person who had a hold on what was going
>on. She was only rarely (if ever) portrayed like a bimbo.
Two observations, if I may:
1. While I accept as reasonable and interesting the suggestion that a gift for precognition *might* contribute to a greater or more =
subtle understanding of human(oid?) psychology, I would also note that such would not necessarily be the case. We might consider, fo=
r example, the case of Peter Boyle's character on "The X-Files": his precognitive abilities offered him no more or less insight into=
the nature or motives behind human behavior than did Mulder and Scully's training in behavioral psychology. We might also consider =
that the murderer in that episode was himself precognitive, and actually hunted fortune tellers as part of his effort simply to unde=
rstand why he felt compelled to kill.
2. I just happened to re-read an back issue of LSH--no. 268, from October 1980--in which Val, Cham and Nura are held hostage by a lu=
natic named Dr. Mayavale who, obsessed with advancing spiritually by achieving a sense of karmic balance, sought to engage in a life=
of evil. Nura has already suffered a vision of her demise in which Val and Cham find themselves unable to save her. I think it's wo=
rth quoting the narrative frame at some length:
"Her gallant saviours, Nura Nal realizes, are dying...and this
knowledge has a most...startling effect on her...In a truculant
frenzy she snaps the constrictive ropes!...and--adrenaline pumping
furiously through her veins--*she explodes!*
...Even in this current age there are those who believe that Dream
Girl is a weak link in the Legion's armor. Extraordinarily beauti-
ful and gifted with mystic second sight--but next-to-useless when
the chips are down. She herself has nurtured this belief in the
secret caverns of her heart.... But there come to all beings
moments of turning; moments of awakening...moments when a living
creature pushes herself beyond the internal barriers she has
always belived to exist.... This is one of those moments!"
What's interesting about this moment, I think, is that it comes (if I'm not mistaken) in an issue written by J.M. DeMatteis *after* =
Levitz had written at least a few issues. Here, Nura's clearly saddled with a version of the bimbo-stigma, and "triumphs" not by man=
ipulating others' behavior nor by drawing on her own intellectual or cognitive resources, but by beating her opponent in a fistfight=
(suggesting later that Val's martial-arts training "really paid off").
Elayne Wechsler-Chaput
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. (tro...@indirect.com) wrote:
: Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, djla...@ids.net (daniel Laflin)
: wrote:
: > There is no Insect queen.
: One whole Amazer retroactively eliminated by fan decree. Everyone take
: white out to your copy of LSH #82!
: My turn: There is no Tangleweb.
Me next! There is no Atmos.
Uh... oops.
I'm not that good at this, sorry...
- Elayne
--
E-Mail me, the "Firehead Head," for more info about the official ()~~
Firesign Theatre newsletter, Four-Alarm FIRESIGNal, available via ##
snail mail or free online! "It's hotter than Heater in Hellmouth ##
today..." Don't forget, there's a seeker born every minute! _##_
Chad McGee
You know, I don't have the issue with me but the new insect queen was
named some deriviate of Lana Lang. I think it would be neat if it
were at least implied that she was decendant of Lana. Just a thought.
Michael Klordny Grabois
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, djla...@ids.net (daniel Laflin)
>wrote:
>> There is no Insect queen.
>One whole Amazer retroactively eliminated by fan decree. Everyone take
>white out to your copy of LSH #82!
>My turn: There is no Tangleweb.
My turn: In LSH v5 #1, Superboy wakes up and realizes he never died, there's
no pocket universe, the Legion never disbanded, there was no Black Dawn, the
Earth never exploded, and there was no End of an Era. He goes to the 30th
century when he sees his statuettes flashing.
-----
Michael R. Grabois | http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mgrabois
Houston, TX | or...@ix.netcom.com CI$: 74737,2600
The Anal Retentive Legion checklists now online at the URL above.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The ritual Klordny Toast... to Freedom, Friendship, and Frunt!"
Michael Klordny Grabois
On 9 Aug 1996 21:40:10 GMT, "scott e. johnson" <mrng...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
wrote:
(Scott, using Netscape as a newsreader causes your lines to not be wrapped
and it's tough to read. Try hitting the "return" key at the end of each line
(around 72 characters or so) and that'll make it easier on the rest of us.
Thanks!)
>2. I just happened to re-read an back issue of LSH--no. 268, from October 1980--
>in which Val, Cham and Nura are held hostage by a lu=
>natic named Dr. Mayavale who, obsessed with advancing spiritually by achieving a
>sense of karmic balance, sought to engage in a life=
> of evil. Nura has already suffered a vision of her demise in which Val and Cham
>find themselves unable to save her. I think it's wo=
>rth quoting the narrative frame at some length:
I don't believe it. He invoked Mayavale to strengthen an argument. Scott, I
don't know if you're aware, but the Mayavale issue has been deemed an
affront to mankind and has been banished from all Legion discussion. Now go
sit in the corner there with Andrew Apold...
[rest of DeMatteis' caption snipped, except for this great line:]
> In a truculant
> frenzy she snaps the constrictive ropes!
>What's interesting about this moment, I think, is that it comes (if I'm not
>mistaken) in an issue written by J.M. DeMatteis *after* =
>Levitz had written at least a few issues.
True, but this one (issue 268) was clearly a fill-in by a writer unfamiliar
with the Legion's characters. He only wrote one other issue (#265), the one
where Tyroc goes back to Marzal.
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael
"Klordny" Grabois) wrote:
>the Mayavale issue has been deemed an
>affront to mankind and has been banished from all Legion discussion.
Rumor has it that the United Nations is considering revising the Geneva
Convention to ban countries from forcing political prisoners from reading
LSH #268.
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"I don't mind being the smartest man in the world. I just wish it
wasn't this one."
--Adrian Veidt, "The Watchmen"
LLL!
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
>My turn: In LSH v5 #1, Superboy wakes up and realizes he never died, there's
>no pocket universe, the Legion never disbanded, there was no Black Dawn, the
>Earth never exploded, and there was no End of an Era. He goes to the 30th
>century when he sees his statuettes flashing.
Does he meet his cousin Kara in the time stream on his way?
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"Why is it that the nuttiest people define reality?"
--Dilbert, "Dilbert"
LLL!
Michael Klordny Grabois
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael
>"Klordny" Grabois) wrote:
>>My turn: In LSH v5 #1, Superboy wakes up and realizes he never died, there's
>>no pocket universe, the Legion never disbanded, there was no Black Dawn, the
>>Earth never exploded, and there was no End of an Era. He goes to the 30th
>>century when he sees his statuettes flashing.
>Does he meet his cousin Kara in the time stream on his way?
But of course! Except he doesn't know who she is until he gets to the 30th
century, because of Saturn Girl's post-hypnotic suggestion that he forget
everything relating to his future when he leaves the 30th century.
Oh, he also meets Mon-el on the moon, which never blew up.
Carolyn Vaughan
In article <4uk602$5...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, or...@ix.netcom.com
(Michael R. Grabois) wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:38:22 GMT, tro...@indirect.com (T. Troy McNemar,
> Esq.) wrote:
>
> >Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael
> >"Klordny" Grabois) wrote:
>
> >>My turn: In LSH v5 #1, Superboy wakes up and realizes he never died, there's
> >>no pocket universe, the Legion never disbanded, there was no Black Dawn, the
> >>Earth never exploded, and there was no End of an Era. He goes to the 30th
> >>century when he sees his statuettes flashing.
>
> >Does he meet his cousin Kara in the time stream on his way?
>
> But of course! Except he doesn't know who she is until he gets to the 30th
> century, because of Saturn Girl's post-hypnotic suggestion that he forget
> everything relating to his future when he leaves the 30th century.
>
> Oh, he also meets Mon-el on the moon, which never blew up.
My turn: The reason Superboy was called to the 30th Century is that one of
Brainy's experiments had accidentally resulted in the appearance of a
Legion from a parallel earth. This Legion was formed a couple of decades
later, in 2994, had different costumes and some members had different code
names, and there were even some new members called XS, Gates, and Kinetix,
and instead of Supergirl, they had had Laurel Gand, aka Andromeda as a
member. And the story continues in the next issue of Legionnaires, which
is continuing to chronicle the adventures of the postboot LSH. Oh, and
the Multiverse still exists (or exists again, or something like that),
with the addition of Earth-ZH, whose history is pretty much identical to
current DCU history.
(That should make both the preboot and postboot fans happy, as well as
everyone who wants the Multiverse back. BTW, is it just me, or are things
escalating as we go along?:^))
--
Carolyn Vaughan - Vaug...@alison.sbc.edu | Curious Lass of the LNH
Carolyn...@mobiuscon.com | Member, Blink Fan Club
Zoe_Fan on #lsh | Member, Magik Fan Club | A Halcyon Van Rug
Mutants are superheroes with a biological predisposition to angst.:^)
Michael Klordny Grabois
>Carolyn Vaughan - Vaug...@alison.sbc.edu | Curious Lass of the LNH
> Carolyn...@mobiuscon.com | Member, Blink Fan Club
>Zoe_Fan on #lsh | Member, Magik Fan Club | A Halcyon Van Rug
>Mutants are superheroes with a biological predisposition to angst.:^)
So Zoe_Fan finally rears her head! A recent de-lurker?
Greg Brume
> Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael
> "Klordny" Grabois) wrote:
>
> >My turn: In LSH v5 #1, Superboy wakes up and realizes he never died, there's
> >no pocket universe, the Legion never disbanded, there was no Black Dawn, the
> >Earth never exploded, and there was no End of an Era. He goes to the 30th
> >century when he sees his statuettes flashing.
snip
ooh ooh, let me....
In LSH v5 #1, Cosmic Boy gets his head stuck in a fish bowl and
suffocates, while Garth accidentally gets stabbed by the automatic-signing
pen when he gets distracted by the World-Wide Police. Meanwhile,
Myx-whatever decides not to kill the remaining Legionnairres, but instead
gives them all hot-foots. Finally, Gloria Steinam shows up and has a long
talk with Brainy about gender discrimination.
Actually, it'd probably be a short series.
--
"I am Rejection Lass! I have the power to cause people to reject me!"
"Sorry, let's have the next applicant."
"See how well it works?" --Sergio Aragones Destroys the DC Universe
Extraordinary Popular Elmos and the Madness of Crowds
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (charyma) writes:
> Hmm, this seems a rather fatalistic approach. What use is she if her
> visions are always *exactly* true in a detailed fashion?
Well, now you can do stories that show how characters react to fatalism.
You can also fall back on misunderstood/incomplete visions.
--
"The cover had a guy picking up a car over his head with his *bare* *hands*!
'Impossible!' I cried, yet immediately opened it up...and it stunned me. The
Phantom was strong, yes, and the Shadow had his gadgetry, but this
'Superman' was *different*."--unknown, paraphrased
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
charyma
Extraordinary Popular Elmos and the Madness of Crowds <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (charyma) writes:
>> Hmm, this seems a rather fatalistic approach. What use is she if her
>> visions are always *exactly* true in a detailed fashion?
>
>Well, now you can do stories that show how characters react to fatalism.
>You can also fall back on misunderstood/incomplete visions.
I was having a discussion with our man Peyer, actually, regarding whether
it was possible to do a good comic book story about a group of outlaws on
the run.
REBELS didn't really work until they started fighting back. Ditto LSH v4
51-58. Omega Men was okay, but only when they faught back, not when they
were just running. Dreadstar didn't work when they were on the run. Hulk
was pretty boring when it was just him running from people. X-meen was so
bad I dropped the title when it was "X-men on the run." And I am sure you
can thing of others.
I don't remember what consensus we came to.
However, in like fashion, *NAME* me one good story revolving around
fatalism that you think would work with the LSH?
The Oedipus Cycle?
The Orestia?
The Stranger?
Which of these do you wish to adapt, Greg? :)
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"It's like you're playing Monopoly and he's got all the little houses. You
land on him and he just says, 'Give me all your damn money.' " -- Orlando's
Anthony Bowie, describing what it's like to guard Michael Jordan.
Jeremy Billones
In article <4unm3e$7...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
<a detailed analysis of fatalism in comics>
Sheesh, I leave for a week and the discussion spirals off...
There are two ways of handling precog w/o being fatalistic.
1) Misinterpretation. She saw a ship with 7 Legionnaires blow
up. Oops, they were mannequins. "My mistake - sorry."
2) Better information. 'The act of observation changes the
event being observed.' Trying to figure out what caused the
event fortold, then change the events to come to prevent it
from occurring. [This is less of a challenge if Ayla can read
her mind and project the vision to every Legionnaire. Otherwise,
all they have is her spoken description of her dream, which will
inevitably err in small and large details.]
And besides, what if she forsees something good happening then
messes it up? :)
(And I thought 12 MONKEYS did a good job of entertaining fatalism.)
Jeremy Billones bill...@primenet.com
Objective Reality Isn't Go Caps & Orioles! ISTJ USSF Certifiable
"You are... one of the few people I can *talk* with. A... friend,
which is a rare thing, for me."
charyma
Jeremy Billones <bill...@primenet.com> wrote:
>charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
><a detailed analysis of fatalism in comics>
>
>Sheesh, I leave for a week and the discussion spirals off...
I beg your pardon?
>There are two ways of handling precog w/o being fatalistic.
>
>1) Misinterpretation. She saw a ship with 7 Legionnaires blow
>up. Oops, they were mannequins. "My mistake - sorry."
That's dodging fatalism. It borders on cheating. Also, it makes the
powers well nigh useless.
>2) Better information. 'The act of observation changes the
>event being observed.' Trying to figure out what caused the
>event fortold, then change the events to come to prevent it
>from occurring. [This is less of a challenge if Ayla can read
>her mind and project the vision to every Legionnaire. Otherwise,
>all they have is her spoken description of her dream, which will
>inevitably err in small and large details.]
That also makes the powers useless. They tell only what might happen.
>And besides, what if she forsees something good happening then
>messes it up? :)
Okay, what if?
>(And I thought 12 MONKEYS did a good job of entertaining fatalism.)
I thought the Oedipus cycle did a good entertaining job of handling
fatalism, but while I might enjoy seeing Sophocles handle the LSH
scripting chores, I rather imagine Johanna and elmo would be quite bored for
instance :)
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley
"Ipsa scientia potestas est." -- Roger Bacon
Andrew Apold
Andrew stopped manipulating the Magna of Illusion when he heard someone using charyma's account say:
>
>>2) Better information. 'The act of observation changes the
>>event being observed.' Trying to figure out what caused the
>>event fortold, then change the events to come to prevent it
>>from occurring. [This is less of a challenge if Ayla can read
>>her mind and project the vision to every Legionnaire. Otherwise,
>>all they have is her spoken description of her dream, which will
>>inevitably err in small and large details.]
>
>That also makes the powers useless. They tell only what might happen.
>
>>And besides, what if she forsees something good happening then
>>messes it up? :)
>
>Okay, what if?
>
>>(And I thought 12 MONKEYS did a good job of entertaining fatalism.)
You have to allow the information change what will happen, this is
heisenberg's uncertainity principle (of sorts) in precog, you cannot
see the future without changing it.
Well, you could have it that way, but that would be even more useless.
It would be like that X-Files episode with the dueling psychics, with
the "If you can't change anything then what's the point?" - "Now you're
beginning to understand"... while excellent for the X-files, it is too
introverted (and useless) for a superhero group....
--
Andrew Apold (mor...@magg.net)
/**********************************************/
/ C/C++, Legion, Blue Oyster Cult, Pink Floyd /
/ Hawkwind, Amtgard, Vikings, and S.A. Spurs /
/**********************************************/
"I was corrupt BEFORE I had power!"
-Random
Jeremy Billones
In article <4uthsu$c...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Jeremy Billones <bill...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>charyma <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>><a detailed analysis of fatalism in comics>
>>Sheesh, I leave for a week and the discussion spirals off...
>I beg your pardon?
When I left for 'MuirCon' in Scotland, the discussion was "how are her
powers useful," regarding psychology and such. I came back and it was
into fatalism. Hadn't expected the topic shift (but should have).
>>There are two ways of handling precog w/o being fatalistic.
>>
>>1) Misinterpretation. She saw a ship with 7 Legionnaires blow
>>up. Oops, they were mannequins. "My mistake - sorry."
>That's dodging fatalism. It borders on cheating. Also, it makes the
>powers well nigh useless.
I've always felt that the standard comic assumption that "all
supers can use their powers competently, with full knowledge
of their capabilities and their effects" was silly, and prevents
you from a) telling some interesting stories, and b) exercising
that lack of knowledge as a plot device.
A perfect precog is unstoppable. A scatter-brained precog is
essentially useless. An imperfect, but usually reliable,
precog is one more interesting teammember.
>>2) Better information.
>
>That also makes the powers useless. They tell only what might happen.
They tell what *will happen*, without direct intervention. That clips
most of the branches off that tree of infinite possibility.
Of course, I never thought the Bat-Computer was useless either.
>>And besides, what if she forsees something good happening then
>>messes it up? :)
>
>Okay, what if?
Umm, cheap angst? (You're right - bad idea. I was just brainstorming.)
Carolyn Vaughan
In article <4ulbni$f...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, or...@ix.netcom.com
(Michael R. Grabois) wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:26:42 -0400, vaug...@alison.sbc.edu (Carolyn
> Vaughan) wrote:
>
> >Carolyn Vaughan - Vaug...@alison.sbc.edu | Curious Lass of the LNH
> > Carolyn...@mobiuscon.com | Member, Blink Fan Club
> >Zoe_Fan on #lsh | Member, Magik Fan Club | A Halcyon Van Rug
> >Mutants are superheroes with a biological predisposition to angst.:^)
>
> So Zoe_Fan finally rears her head! A recent de-lurker?
No, I just don't post very often. Sorry to take so long to reply.
--
Johnny B. Elmo
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (charyma) writes:
> However, in like fashion, *NAME* me one good story revolving around
> fatalism that you think would work with the LSH?
>
> The Oedipus Cycle?
> The Orestia?
> The Stranger?
Not familiar with the Stranger (Camus?), but the other two are not
inconceivable. Make the Legion the chorus and introduce characters for
the major roles. (One of the side effects of the stasis of continuing
characters in serial fiction is the use of temporary characters who
undergo the changes that complete the story.)
--
"Earth-DS9: Commander Sisko! I've just discovered that Earthlings gain powers
far beyond that of normal people under the Bajoran sun!"--Tom Galloway
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Michael A. Chary
Johnny B. Elmo (mor...@riph5.rice.edu) writes:
> fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (charyma) writes:
>> However, in like fashion, *NAME* me one good story revolving around
>> fatalism that you think would work with the LSH?
>>
>> The Oedipus Cycle?
>> The Orestia?
>> The Stranger?
>
> Not familiar with the Stranger (Camus?),
Yes. Have you ever heard The Cure's "Killing an Arab?" It's based on _The
Stranger_.
(Also, it's not really fatalist. It's existentialist. It just reads like
fatalism because Camus was depressing and tedious. Singer, I know you
disagree, just let it go, okay?)
>but the other two are not
> inconceivable. Make the Legion the chorus and introduce characters for
> the major roles. (One of the side effects of the stasis of continuing
> characters in serial fiction is the use of temporary characters who
> undergo the changes that complete the story.)
Greg, not to be insulting, oh what the heck, if there's one person I can
insult, it's Greg :) Have you ever actually *read* the endings to these
trilogies? Even if they don't involve LSH charatcers, they're pretty grim.
So far none of these LSH books has had anyone hang themselves after being
entombed alive, for instance?
(That's right kids, it's time to compare the Legion of Super-Heroes to
ancient Greek drama. For next time: what if Euripides wrote a story about
Garth, Ayla, and Mekt?)
--
When there's no one there, it's Norg.
"The BBC's trailer department keeps calling the O J Simpson case "the trial
of the century." Sure, OJ's a big name, but I still think the title belongs,
narrowly, to Nuremberg." - Jack Hughes, "The Independent on Sunday."
RichWhit10
SNIP!
Jeremy Billones wrote:
>2) Better information. 'The act of observation changes the
>event being observed.' Trying to figure out what caused the
>event fortold, then change the events to come to prevent it
>from occurring. [This is less of a challenge if Ayla can read
>her mind and project the vision to every Legionnaire. Otherwise,
>all they have is her spoken description of her dream, which will
>inevitably err in small and large details.]
>
>And besides, what if she forsees something good happening then
>messes it up? :)
>
This would be a heck of a challenge for *Ayla* to read her mind!
Rich
(No superpowers, but a definite weakness for red-heads)
-------------------------
"Did you know that all red-headed women are creatures from
outer space? Guy H. Lillian III, Detective #417 lettercol
"Pay no mind to the red-headed creatures"
RAH - _The Witch's Daughters_ 1946
BordElmo of Blood
bf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael A. Chary) writes:
> Johnny B. Elmo (mor...@riph5.rice.edu) writes:
>> Make the Legion the chorus and introduce characters for the major roles.
>
> insult, it's Greg :) Have you ever actually *read* the endings to these
No; I pretty much know what happens from general knowledge of Greek myth.
> So far none of these LSH books has had anyone hang themselves after being
> entombed alive, for instance?
Hell, it's be more effective than the cheap angst we're getting now.
> (That's right kids, it's time to compare the Legion of Super-Heroes to
> ancient Greek drama. For next time: what if Euripides wrote a story about
> Garth, Ayla, and Mekt?)
Comedy or drama? Actually, Garth, Ayla, and Mekt as classical Greek
tragedy would make a great Elseworlds. Get scribbl^H^H^Hpting!
--
"Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
--Porky Pine, "Pogo", Walt Kelly
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Mike Chary
BordElmo of Blood <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>bf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael A. Chary) writes:
>> Johnny B. Elmo (mor...@riph5.rice.edu) writes:
>>> Make the Legion the chorus and introduce characters for the major roles.
>>
>> Greg, not to be insulting, oh what the heck, if there's one person I can
>> insult, it's Greg :) Have you ever actually *read* the endings to these
>> trilogies [Orestia, Oedipus]?
>
>No; I pretty much know what happens from general knowledge of Greek myth.
Please, I could write everything you know about Greek myth on a grain of
sand and have room left over for both The Iliad *and* The Odyssey. :)
>> So far none of these LSH books has had anyone hang themselves after being
>> entombed alive, for instance?
>
>Hell, it's be more effective than the cheap angst we're getting now.
Oh, which cheap angst is that? Garth hasn't unknowingly copulated with
Ayla yet, for instance.
>> (That's right kids, it's time to compare the Legion of Super-Heroes to
>> ancient Greek drama. For next time: what if Euripides wrote a story about
>> Garth, Ayla, and Mekt?)
>
>Comedy or drama? Actually, Garth, Ayla, and Mekt as classical Greek
>tragedy would make a great Elseworlds. Get scribbl^H^H^Hpting!
A) Drama is a catch all term. The contrast is between comedy and tragedy.
B) Euripides was a tragedian.
C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "The best argument against
democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
Dave Van Domelen
In article <4vo8p3$b...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>Please, I could write everything you know about Greek myth on a grain of
>sand and have room left over for both The Iliad *and* The Odyssey. :)
Yes, but would it be legible at that font size?
>
>Oh, which cheap angst is that? Garth hasn't unknowingly copulated with
>Ayla yet, for instance.
No, but Rokk has unknowingly kissed Jenni, which is about as sexual
as the Legion gets these days.
>
>C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
>traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
Speaking of vomit, has anyone tried to map Titus Andronicus onto
the Legion?
Dave Van Domelen, read Titus after hearing good things about a local
production of it. My, but they run out of dramatis personae fast....
BordElmo of Blood
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
> BordElmo of Blood <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>>Hell, it's be more effective than the cheap angst we're getting now.
>
> Ayla yet, for instance.
Right. Garth losing an arm and not being able to get another, that's
cheap angst. Garth unknowingly copulating with his sister, that's
comedy. Or possibly tragedy. Hard to tell the difference :-)
>>Comedy or drama? Actually, Garth, Ayla, and Mekt as classical Greek
>>tragedy would make a great Elseworlds.
>
> A) Drama is a catch all term. The contrast is between comedy and tragedy.
>
> B) Euripides was a tragedian.
Which classical Greek tragedian wrote four-part trilogies, in which
the fourth part was a parody version of the other three--I thought that
was Euripides? Maybe it's Sophocles. Who wrote The Frogs?
> C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
> traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
I double dog dare you to write it.
--
"American publishers believe that their readers are Spam-sucking trailer
trash who'll buy whatever's shoved on the stand at the local store, and it
embarrasses them when they take an interest."--Terry Pratchett
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
DScottDoty
In article <4vof9i$s...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
dva...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen) writes:
> Speaking of vomit, has anyone tried to map Titus Andronicus onto
>the Legion?
>
>
Titus Andronicus is actually a great play, if you try reading it as a
black comedy instead of a tragedy. It's so wonderfully OTT that it's
plotlines could literally fit into Melrose Place. Now Timon of Athens,
THERE'S a bad play. . ..
And, to stay on topic, to map Timon onto the Legion, Brande would have to
lose his fortune again, but react to it VERY differently postboot. . ..
Dave Doty
Laura Goostree
Dave Van Domelen (dva...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: In article <4vo8p3$b...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
: Mike Chary <ma...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
: >C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
: >traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
: Speaking of vomit, has anyone tried to map Titus Andronicus onto
: the Legion?
Hey, at last a story for Tenzil!
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Laura Goostree "Slipping into madness is good for the
Internet: lau...@netcom.com sake of comparison."
CompuServe: 74353,2037 Jenny Holzer @ http://www.adaweb.com/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mike Chary
BordElmo of Blood <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
>> BordElmo of Blood <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>>>Hell, it's be more effective than the cheap angst we're getting now.
>>
>> Oh, which cheap angst is that? Garth hasn't unknowingly copulated with
>> Ayla yet, for instance.
>
>Right. Garth losing an arm and not being able to get another, that's
>cheap angst. Garth unknowingly copulating with his sister, that's
>comedy. Or possibly tragedy. Hard to tell the difference :-)
The Greeks had a limited sense of humor about incest. Unless your sister
was *very* pretty :)
>>>Comedy or drama? Actually, Garth, Ayla, and Mekt as classical Greek
>>>tragedy would make a great Elseworlds.
>>
>> A) Drama is a catch all term. The contrast is between comedy and tragedy.
>>
>> B) Euripides was a tragedian.
>
>Which classical Greek tragedian wrote four-part trilogies, in which
>the fourth part was a parody version of the other three--I thought that
>was Euripides? Maybe it's Sophocles. Who wrote The Frogs?
I *hate* it when I write a whole lecture, and you only remember three
sentences.
Okay, the standard practice for presentation of Greek tragedy was: a
trilogy follwed by a satyr play. A satyr play was usually comic but not
always, and involved satyrs. Our word "satire" comes from those plays,
but this was over two millenia ago.
Euripides wrote the only satyr play we still have ("Cyclops") but the
format was standard. The only *trilogy* we have is Aeschylus' "Orestia."
"Frogs" was a comedy. Aristophanes wrote it.
>> C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
>> traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
>
>I double dog dare you to write it.
Only if you can find people to act it out.
DScottDoty
In article <1996Aug2...@riph7.rice.edu>, mor...@riph5.rice.edu
(BordElmo of Blood) writes:
>Which classical Greek tragedian wrote four-part trilogies, in which
>the fourth part was a parody version of the other three--I thought that
>was Euripides? Maybe it's Sophocles. Who wrote The Frogs?
I thought it was a frequently used style, particularly at the theatrical
competitions.
But I'm not a classics specialist, so it wouldn't surprise me if I were
wrong.
Dave Doty
Eric Schissel
> Which classical Greek tragedian wrote four-part trilogies, in which
> the fourth part was a parody version of the other three--I thought that
> was Euripides? Maybe it's Sophocles. Who wrote The Frogs?
>
Allegedly (my source is a book about music and might be quite mistaken!)
this was actually .standard practice. even though (according to my source,
a book by Malcolm MacDonald- not the novelist) most of the satyr-plays-
the 4th parts in question- are lost now.
> "American publishers believe that their readers are Spam-sucking trailer
> trash who'll buy whatever's shoved on the stand at the local store, and it
> embarrasses them when they take an interest."--Terry Pratchett
>
> elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
> http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
--
Eric Schissel
es...@cornell.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1489
Elmoman and O'Brien
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
> BordElmo of Blood <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>>> C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
>>> traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
>>
>>I double dog dare you to write it.
>
> Only if you can find people to act it out.
No problem. Sidne as Imra. The rest is left as an exercise for rac.o-m.
--
"Hot Stuff 2099: Hot Stuff, Son of Satan. In the first issue, Hot Stuff claims
the soul of Little Audrey. High eldritch comedy ensues! "
--Lance Smith
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Sidne G. Ward
mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Elmoman and O'Brien) writes:
>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
>> BordElmo of Blood <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>>>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
>>>> C) If you actually read it, you'd vomit. I am mildly tempted to write a
>>>> traditional Greek tragedy on the theme just to prove it :)
>>>
>>>I double dog dare you to write it.
>>
>> Only if you can find people to act it out.
>No problem. Sidne as Imra. The rest is left as an exercise for rac.o-m.
If you write it in greek, you better get me some sort of 30th century
translator/pronounciation device so I can read it. :)
Do the Legionnaires' telepathic earplugs work on the written word as well
as spoken?
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Johanna Draper
In article <507dlm$o...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Do the Legionnaires' telepathic earplugs work on the written word as well
>as spoken?
I doubt it -- why would you think they would?
Although, speaking of translation devices ...
Spoilers
The flight rings apparently have translation technoology in them, according
to Final Night issue 1.
Johanna
--
"Living in a cold cruel city in a cold cruel world -- that's the way it's
been, and probably will always be. Not a very nice place for a sensitive
boy or girl; not a very nice place for you and me."
--- "Someone to Come Home To", Animal Logic
Sidne G. Ward
dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu (Johanna Draper) writes:
>In article <507dlm$o...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Do the Legionnaires' telepathic earplugs work on the written word as well
>>as spoken?
>I doubt it -- why would you think they would?
I don't think they do. I'm just wondering how much of a problem not being
able to read would be for Legionnaires when they're places where they
don't know the language.
For example, just imagine trying to survive in the US today if you
couldn't read *and* weren't familiar with the culture. How would you go
into a restaurant and order. You couldn't use a map very easily. If you
were in a building and a fire broke out, you wouldn't know that some of
the signs said "Exit".
Simply being able to communicate verbally wouldn't solve all your
communication problems.
>Although, speaking of translation devices ...
>Spoilers
>The flight rings apparently have translation technoology in them, according
>to Final Night issue 1.
Hmm. I don't remember ever hearing this before. But it would come in
darn handy. Does the translation technology just work on the written word
or also work on the spoken word? And if it does work on the spoken word,
why the translation ability in the telepathic ear plugs?
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu
(Johanna Draper) wrote:
>Although, speaking of translation devices ...
>Spoilers
>The flight rings apparently have translation technoology in them, according
>to Final Night issue 1.
I saw that in the Preview, too. I call "Kesel doesn't know what he's
talking about."
Of course, if they manage to change "Irma" before FN #1, maybe they'll
get this, too.
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"You have perhaps heard the phrase that Hell is other people? . . .
In time you will learn that it is wrong."
--Death, "Small Gods"
LLL!
Mike Chary
Johanna Draper <dan...@aurora.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>Do the Legionnaires' telepathic earplugs work on the written word as well
>>as spoken?
>
>I doubt it -- why would you think they would?
I would guess it depends largely on their range and if any native
speakers are around. Next question: we have seen that the communicators
work between species of differing intelligence when Brainy talked to
people. Can the Legionnaires speak to animals.
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
Johanna Draper
In article <508dk0$6...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
>couldn't read *and* weren't familiar with the culture. How would you go
>into a restaurant and order.
Go to any fast food place - point at the pictures or order by number. (Our
increasing independence from literacy is depressing.)
>were in a building and a fire broke out, you wouldn't know that some of
>the signs said "Exit".
Yeah, but you'd quickly see that they were doors.
>Simply being able to communicate verbally wouldn't solve all your
>communication problems.
True.
>>Although, speaking of translation devices ...
>
>>Spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>The flight rings apparently have translation technoology in them, according
>>to Final Night issue 1.
>
>Hmm. I don't remember ever hearing this before.
It's apparently a new development, but intended to be canon.
Leif Olson
On 31 Aug 1996, Johanna Draper wrote:
> Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >>Although, speaking of translation devices ...
> >
> >>Spoilers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>The flight rings apparently have translation technoology in them, according
> >>to Final Night issue 1.
> >
> >Hmm. I don't remember ever hearing this before.
>
> It's apparently a new development, but intended to be canon.
Makes sense that Brainy would build something like that into the rings.
It eliminates the need for him to go thrusting his fingers into
everyone's (Ayla's) ears. Also, he can tell Lyle, "Okay, you made the
rings, but *I* made them *better.*"
Leif Olson
lol...@sol.cs.trinity.edu
-------------------------
"Americans know that Bill Clinton's promises have the lifespan of a Big
Mac on Air Force One." - Rep. Susan Molinari
Elmo from the Black Lagoon
fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
> Next question: we have seen that the communicators
> work between species of differing intelligence when Brainy talked to
> people. Can the Legionnaires speak to animals.
Insofar as animals use meaningful communication, sure, why not. Animals
use the same processes (abstraction, time perception, etc.) humans do in
communicating, they just don't do it to the same extent that humans do.
--
"At American weddings, the quality of the food is inversely proportional to the
social position of the bride and groom."--Calvin Trillin
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnalv.fnal.gov)
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Mike Chary
Elmo from the Black Lagoon <mor...@riph5.rice.edu> wrote:
>fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) writes:
>> Next question: we have seen that the communicators
>> work between species of differing intelligence when Brainy talked to
>> people. Can the Legionnaires speak to animals.
>
>Insofar as animals use meaningful communication, sure, why not. Animals
>use the same processes (abstraction, time perception, etc.) humans do in
I don't know. I just think it would be nifty to show Ayla conversing with
her pet cat or something.