Princess Projectra as a snake: ewwww
johnl...@aol.com
I missed the newsgroup when Sensor made her reboots appearance. Is
anyone a fan of the change? I'm not. Call me a phobic when it comes to
non-
humanoids, but I liked Jeckie as a human (or very close there to). How
did it
go over with the rest of the newgroup?
Well this should help to satiate those legion-philes who have been
wanting
non-humaniod for a while. Me, I say just bring back the little guy who
could warp
matter. He was funny as hell.
Man, gotta feel for Val though. First he dies, brought back as a sw6
and dies
shortly afterwards, then comes back reboot and loses the woman he loved
before
the reboot. Unless he has a fetish for snakes. ;)
Brian
Hernan Espinoza
johnl...@aol.com writes:
> I missed the newsgroup when Sensor made her reboots appearance. Is
>anyone a fan of the change? I'm not. Call me a phobic when it comes to
>non-humanoids, but I liked Jeckie as a human (or very close there to). How
>did it go over with the rest of the newgroup?
Hmmm, a troll? Ah, well, ever the optimist...
Sneckie led to some....spirited discussion. (If you wanted to
start a flame war, you couldn't have picked a much better match)
Some people were deeply offended by the change from the traditional
Jeckie because now the old Jeckie _can't_ return and, worse, this whole
thing could've been avoided if Sneckie had been introduced as a completely
new character. Tradition is important to the Legion. It has decades of
rich history that shouldn't just be cast aside without a damn good reason.
...and this felt like a stab in the back to some.
Some people love the traditional Jeckie, but also love Sneckie
because she represents a _real_ break from the character patterns of
the past and meant that the post-boot Legion would be more than a rehash
of the old. Uncertainty about the future is important to good drama.
A lot of people thought having another non-humanoid character was
terrific. Some thought the loss of Jeckie was too high a price. Some
disagreed.
Some people didn't really care much one way or the other about the
traditional Jeckie, and just like Sneckie because she's cool...and others
just think she's dumb.
Some people thought we all needed to take a chill pill.
...and almost everybody thinks the arms are stupid.
-Hernan, loves that Sneckie.
PS - Some people think Sneckie is an illusion...part of some unknown
agenda (good or bad depending on the speculator)
Ben Weiss
On 29 Nov 96 18:47:56 GMT,
>
> A lot of people thought having another non-humanoid character was
>terrific. Some thought the loss of Jeckie was too high a price. Some
>disagreed.
And some people didn't see the change as a loss at all. Jeka's
personality is as close to preboot as, say, Garth's or Vi's (or,
perhaps a better comparison, Tasmia's). She's just had a body
transplant.
Ben
Jason Fliegel
In article <espinoza....@cgl.ucsf.edu>,
Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>
> Sneckie led to some....spirited discussion. (If you wanted to
>start a flame war, you couldn't have picked a much better match)
>
Oh yeah? How about this:
The TMK Jeckie was better than Jeckie as a snake, but she should have been
a lesbian, and should have kept herself in better shape (but it's OK that
she was portrayed as such a ditz). Also, they should never have rebooted
continuity.
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
Formerly jb...@virginia.edu
dscot...@aol.com
In article <19961129161...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
johnl...@aol.com writes:
> I missed the newsgroup when Sensor made her reboots appearance. Is
>anyone a fan of the change? I'm not. Call me a phobic when it comes to
>non-
>humanoids, but I liked Jeckie as a human (or very close there to). How
>did it
>go over with the rest of the newgroup?
Oh, everyone liked it but you. Definitely. You must leave now. :)
Dave Doty
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
My esteemed colleague, jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu (Jason Fliegel),
wrote:
> The TMK Jeckie was better than Jeckie as a snake, but she should have been
> a lesbian, and should have kept herself in better shape (but it's OK that
> she was portrayed as such a ditz). Also, they should never have rebooted
> continuity.
And what about that one panel appearance where Sneckie was revealed to
have joined the Dark Circle?
(Alas, it looks like Jason confused Jeckie and Nura, but he still made me
chuckle.)
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
"Futility is resistant."
LLL!
Rob Hansen
>In article <espinoza....@cgl.ucsf.edu>,
>Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Sneckie led to some....spirited discussion. (If you wanted to
>>start a flame war, you couldn't have picked a much better match)
>>
>
>Oh yeah? How about this:
>
>The TMK Jeckie was better than Jeckie as a snake, but she should have been
>a lesbian, and should have kept herself in better shape (but it's OK that
>she was portrayed as such a ditz). Also, they should never have rebooted
>continuity.
>
Ah yes, '2966 And All That'...
Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
Rob Hansen
On Fri, 29 Nov 96 19:55:05 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
wrote:
As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
a) changed race?
b) changed sex?
c) changed species?
I suspect few people in this newsgroup would have a big problem with
a), a lot would have trouble handling b), and most everyone would be
freaked out by c). I know we're talking comic-book character rather
than significant other here, but the same impulses seem to be at work
in people's reaction to the snake.
Foutz
Rob Hansen wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Nov 96 19:55:05 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>
> a) changed race?
> b) changed sex?
> c) changed species?
>
> I suspect few people in this newsgroup would have a big problem with
> a), a lot would have trouble handling b), and most everyone would be
> freaked out by c). I know we're talking comic-book character rather
> than significant other here, but the same impulses seem to be at work
> in people's reaction to the snake.
Acually, if I woke up one morning and my partner had suddenly changed
sex I would be just as freaked if my partner had changed species.
Comma Kid aka Lauren Foutz
"Drat, I can't think of a quote." JFK.
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
My esteemed colleague, r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk (Rob Hansen), wrote:
> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>
> a) changed race?
> b) changed sex?
> c) changed species?
I almost proposed a similar thought experiment back in the height of the
"Top 10 Backstabs in L* #43" thread. I agree with Rob's conclusion that
a) probably isn't a problem for most while b) and c) would probably be
too much for most people.
And before anyone asks, I do not have sexual fantasies about pre-Zero
Jeckie. :)
Jason Fliegel
In article <329fc40a...@news.goodnet.com>,
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>My esteemed colleague, jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu (Jason Fliegel),
>wrote:
>
>> a lesbian, and should have kept herself in better shape (but it's OK that
>> she was portrayed as such a ditz). Also, they should never have rebooted
>> continuity.
>
>have joined the Dark Circle?
>
>(Alas, it looks like Jason confused Jeckie and Nura, but he still made me
>chuckle.)
>
Jason Fliegel
In article <329fc40a...@news.goodnet.com>,
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. <tro...@indirect.com> wrote:
>My esteemed colleague, jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu (Jason Fliegel),
>wrote:
>
>> The TMK Jeckie was better than Jeckie as a snake, but she should have been
>> a lesbian, and should have kept herself in better shape (but it's OK that
>> she was portrayed as such a ditz). Also, they should never have rebooted
>> continuity.
>
>And what about that one panel appearance where Sneckie was revealed to
>have joined the Dark Circle?
>
>(Alas, it looks like Jason confused Jeckie and Nura, but he still made me
>chuckle.)
>
No confusion. I just wanted to throw in as many LSH flamefests as
possible, and the "Nura would never have gotten fat" one is one of the
most popular. I don't think Jeckie's name has ever been bandied about as
a potential gay Legionaire (well, EVERYONE'S name has been bandied about
as a potential gay Legionaire, but there's a few that have REALLY been
bandied about, and she's not one of 'em). I did forget all about the
Tellus/Dark Circle thing, though.
Rob Hansen
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:35:54 +0000, Foutz <pfo...@vt.edu> wrote:
>Rob Hansen wrote:
>
>> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>>
>> a) changed race?
>> b) changed sex?
>> c) changed species?
>>
>> I suspect few people in this newsgroup would have a big problem with
>> a), a lot would have trouble handling b), and most everyone would be
>> freaked out by c). I know we're talking comic-book character rather
>> than significant other here, but the same impulses seem to be at work
>> in people's reaction to the snake.
>
>Acually, if I woke up one morning and my partner had suddenly changed
>sex I would be just as freaked if my partner had changed species.
>
I'm sure we'd all be freaked if our partners suddenly changed sex,
Lauren, but _as_ freaked as if they changed species? Really? Even if,
say, they'd turned into a giant spider? Seems unlikely to me.
William H. Stoddard
In article <19961129161...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
johnl...@aol.com wrote:
> I missed the newsgroup when Sensor made her reboots appearance. Is
>anyone a fan of the change? I'm not. Call me a phobic when it comes to
>non-
>humanoids, but I liked Jeckie as a human (or very close there to). How
>did it
>go over with the rest of the newgroup?
Actually, I was utterly delighted; I'd been enjoying the tryouts
story anyway, but that twist made it one of my favorite new Legion
stories so far. Of course, I find snakes aesthetically pleasing and
I never liked the original Princess/Queen Projectra all that much.
But more specifically: I liked seeing that the Legion isn't
phobic about body shapes; I liked the line about 'smelling out
her prey' and the implied carnivory; I liked seeing her ready to
go into battle; I liked the hint of hauteur in her way of speaking;
and I thought she was drawn as really beautiful--I quite shared
Reep's feelings about her. I guess some of us are just
herpetophilic....
--Bill Stoddard
William H. Stoddard You're sure to find him resting,
or a-licking of his thumbs,
whsto...@axnet.net Or engaged in doing complicated
long division sums.
--T.S. Eliot, "Macavity: The Mystery Cat"
Dan McEwen
Jason Fliegel wrote:
>
> In article <espinoza....@cgl.ucsf.edu>,
> Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Sneckie led to some....spirited discussion. (If you wanted to
> >start a flame war, you couldn't have picked a much better match)
> >
>
> Oh yeah? How about this:
>
> a lesbian, and should have kept herself in better shape (but it's OK that
> she was portrayed as such a ditz). Also, they should never have rebooted
> continuity.
>
because TMK Jeckie was a widow there was no reason for her to become a
lesbian. And, while I mourn preboot, I'm quite happy with the reboot.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Carl Fink
In article <whstoddard-01...@ppp162.ax.com>,
I was in fact a professional snake-handler for a while, but I still
think Jeckie-as-snake is a mistake. A *new* snake character wouldn't
have bothered me at all.
--
Carl Fink ca...@panix.com madsci...@genie.com
Dueling Modems http://www.dm.net
"Any given person is an aberration"
Michael Chary
Dan McEwen
> >Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu > wrote:
> >>
> >> A lot of people thought having another non-humanoid character was
> >>terrific. Some thought the loss of Jeckie was too high a price. Some
> >>disagreed.
> >
> >And some people didn't see the change as a loss at all. Jeka's
> >personality is as close to preboot as, say, Garth's or Vi's (or,
> >perhaps a better comparison, Tasmia's). She's just had a body
> >transplant.
>
> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>
> a) changed race?
> b) changed sex?
> c) changed species?
>
> I suspect few people in this newsgroup would have a big problem with
> a), a lot would have trouble handling b), and most everyone would be
> freaked out by c). I know we're talking comic-book character rather
> than significant other here, but the same impulses seem to be at work
> in people's reaction to the snake.
b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
Now, as to my feelings about Jeka, I like her. I'm kind of sorry that
Jeckie's gone for good, but I do still like her.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Sidne G. Ward
tro...@indirect.com (T. Troy McNemar, Esq.) writes:
>And before anyone asks, I do not have sexual fantasies about pre-Zero
>Jeckie. :)
Any sexual fantasies about post-Zero Sneckie? :)
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Dan McEwen
Christopher Bird wrote:
>
> Dan McEwen (djmc...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>
> > No, PL Jeckie was better than Jeka, but TMK Jeckie sucked, IMO. Just
> > because TMK Jeckie was a widow there was no reason for her to become a
> > lesbian. And, while I mourn preboot, I'm quite happy with the reboot.
>
Um, never. That's what you were supposed to get out of all that above.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Christopher Bird
Dan McEwen (djmc...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> No, PL Jeckie was better than Jeka, but TMK Jeckie sucked, IMO. Just
> because TMK Jeckie was a widow there was no reason for her to become a
> lesbian. And, while I mourn preboot, I'm quite happy with the reboot.
And when exactly was Jeckie a lesbian? Hmmmm?
----------- The Church of Cthulhu: http://chat.carleton.ca/~cbird-----------
"That's when Germany fell, in July. Doing it is dirty. They hate Americans
everywhere. You know why? Because we fucked all of their mothers for
chocolate bars, and don't you forget that." --Lenny Bruce
CAMPUS CRUSADE FOR CTHULHU: "Because he can beat up all your wimpy gods!"
S L Post
Despite all of my anti-rabid traditionalist rhetoric I do have to say
that I hope Jeckie (the human) is alive and well somewhere. I like
Jeka (the snake) but the fact remains that the preboot Projectra
(post-KK) was one of my favorites (especially as Sensor Girl)
J
Go Rockets
ps- Sorry about all of those (parentheses!)
;P
Jacob W Michaels
> >And before anyone asks, I do not have sexual fantasies about pre-Zero
> >Jeckie. :)
> Any sexual fantasies about post-Zero Sneckie? :)
There's a Freudian joke in there somewhere, but damned if I can
think of it. Vorp?
Jacob
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
My esteemed colleague, sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward), wrote:
> tro...@indirect.com (T. Troy McNemar, Esq.) writes:
> >And before anyone asks, I do not have sexual fantasies about pre-Zero
> >Jeckie. :)
>
> Any sexual fantasies about post-Zero Sneckie? :)
Hey, that's one sexy snake! :)
--
T. Troy McNemar, Esq. Tro...@indirect.com
Are you an easy mark? Descramble this .sig to find out.
LLL!
Nathan Sanders
>> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>>
>> a) changed race?
>> b) changed sex?
>> c) changed species?
Dan McEwen <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
>as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
>wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
?????
You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
than suddenly becoming a snake???
Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
Nathan
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| san...@ling.ucsc.edu ***** Board of Linguistics, UC Santa Cruz |
| ling.ucsc.edu/~sanders *** Santa Cruz, California, 95064 |
| * |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Rob Hansen
On 2 Dec 1996 18:15:52 GMT, syn...@cats.ucsc.edu (Nathan Sanders)
wrote:
>
>
>>> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>>> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>>>
>>> a) changed race?
>>> b) changed sex?
>>> c) changed species?
>
>Dan McEwen <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
>>as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
>>wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
>
>?????
>
>You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
>than suddenly becoming a snake???
>
>Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
>
>Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
>
>Nathan
>--
Out of curiosity, why did you automatically assume Dan is straight? He
made no mention of what gender his lover would be if they changed sex.
I'm straight, but it's been many, many years since I last made the
automatic assumption that any given person I meet either is or isn't.
richw...@aol.com
Rob Hansen writes:
>As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>
>a) changed race?
>b) changed sex?
>c) changed species?
>
a. Could cause complications, but livable.
b. Hmm, what *is* love, anyway?
c. Oops, now *that* could be sticky.
Rob, you forgot the most important:
d) changed political preference?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHH! : )
Rich Whitten
Sean Christian Daugherty
On 29 Nov 1996 16:08:27 GMT, johnl...@aol.com wrote:
> I missed the newsgroup when Sensor made her reboots appearance. Is
>anyone a fan of the change? I'm not. Call me a phobic when it comes to
>non-humanoids, but I liked Jeckie as a human (or very close there to). How
>did it go over with the rest of the newgroup?
Well, I would have preferred a more "Sensor Girl" like costume, and a
humanoid, really, but the snake is preferable to her highly annoying
Projectra costume. I sincerely hope her illusion of it in her first
post-reboot issue is the last we'll see of it.
> Man, gotta feel for Val though. First he dies, brought back as a sw6
>and dies shortly afterwards, then comes back reboot and loses the woman he loved
>before the reboot. Unless he has a fetish for snakes. ;)
Sure, anything. This guy needs some characterization. He's the only
member of the Workforce to be almost totally glossed over. He's said
like ten lines in the past two years!
michael
johnl...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I missed the newsgroup when Sensor made her reboots appearance. Is
> anyone a fan of the change? I'm not. Call me a phobic when it comes to
> non-
> humanoids, but I liked Jeckie as a human (or very close there to). How
> did it
> go over with the rest of the newgroup?
> wanting
> non-humaniod for a while. Me, I say just bring back the little guy who
> could warp
> matter. He was funny as hell.
> Man, gotta feel for Val though. First he dies, brought back as a sw6
> and dies
> shortly afterwards, then comes back reboot and loses the woman he loved
> before
> the reboot. Unless he has a fetish for snakes. ;)
>
What if Superman had been rebooted as a snake? My guess is that the
general public would have a fit: "Lois is have sex with a what!!?" :)
-Michael
Elizabeth Celeste
On 2 Dec 1996, Nathan Sanders wrote:
(Origional attributions snipped by prior poster(s):
> >> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
> >> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
> >> a) changed race?
> >> b) changed sex?
> >> c) changed species?
I personally whould be quite happy to discover that I had a
spouse/lover/partner. Nothing like being single to make a question
irrelevent :)
> Dan McEwen <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
> >as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
> >wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
I pretty much have to agree with this one. Skin tone is skin tone. Big
deal. Species could be ok, presuming that you were still working with
humanoids. I mean think about the number of people in comic books who are
supposed to be aliens. Who look just like regular people.
As a species example, take Zoe.
She comes home with a tail and funky ears. Not a major problem for her
significant other to deal with.
If she had come home as a snake, that would have been a problem.
Gender however, does have a lot to do with sexual attraction. ANd if Zoe
had returned to Legion HQ a boy, that would have coused a lot more
problems then the aqusiton of a tail.
Especially since gender tends to be the number one thing people look for
in a mate.
> ?????
> You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
> than suddenly becoming a snake???
> Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
> Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
I have to take issue with this. It's not a homophobia thing to have
problems with you're mate suddenly changing gender. I mean, for _most_,
(but definatly not _all_) people, are attracted to only one gender.
Presumably switching species in a major way, or switching gender would
both be reasons for a change in relationship.
Calling it homophobia isn't the proper response. If you were male, and
your lover/mate/sig other was also male, then the mate was suddenly
turned into a woman, you'd have problems too.
Eliz- who thinks that probably it's all a major case of speciesism anyway.
Sombody ought to ask this question of Gates. :)
Keeper of the Dead New Mutants Flame: Dendarii Free Mercenary Society
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't want to say I love you/ that would give away too much/ It's hip
to be detached and precious /The only thing you feel is vicious" SE
Ben Weiss
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:03:48 GMT,
Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk > wrote:
>On Fri, 29 Nov 96 19:55:05 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
>wrote:
>>And some people didn't see the change as a loss at all. Jeka's
>>personality is as close to preboot as, say, Garth's or Vi's (or,
>>perhaps a better comparison, Tasmia's). She's just had a body
>>transplant.
>
>As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>
>a) changed race?
>b) changed sex?
>c) changed species?
>
>I suspect few people in this newsgroup would have a big problem with
>a), a lot would have trouble handling b), and most everyone would be
>freaked out by c). I know we're talking comic-book character rather
>than significant other here, but the same impulses seem to be at work
>in people's reaction to the snake.
...Which is a fairly sad comment on the psychology of certain fans. :)
I guess I'm looking at this from an aesthetic or creative standpoint;
Jeka adds pretty much everything to the book that Jeckie did, plus a
nonhumanoid. In the context of a comic book, Jeka is a good creative
touch. In contrast, simply changing a Legionnaire's sex would add
nothing--although the Legion always did need more women, it's hard
to change a character's sex without subconsciously altering the
writer's portrayal. Changing a human Legionnaire's race, OTOH, would
add an acknowledgement to that part of the comic's audience that isn't
white--a worthwhile goal.
Ben
Rob Hansen
On 3 Dec 1996 00:22:01 GMT, richw...@aol.com wrote:
>Rob Hansen writes:
>
>>As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>>morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>>
>>a) changed race?
>>b) changed sex?
>>c) changed species?
>>
>a. Could cause complications, but livable.
>b. Hmm, what *is* love, anyway?
>c. Oops, now *that* could be sticky.
>
>Rob, you forgot the most important:
>
>d) changed political preference?
>
>AHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHH! : )
>
Got that right. Waking up to discover your partner had become a Nazi
would be worse than any of the above, IMO.
iclev...@aol.com
I'm telling you. Orando was formed from refugees from Zerox in
pre-boot. It makes sense to explain that this is still true, but the
fleeing refugees were turned into snakes magically, but retained some of
their powers (hence Sensor's powers and their abilities to manipulate
objects. Let Jeckie be the one to break the curse and restore her & the
others to their true (human) forms. It can even be tied in with Mordru.
Hosun S. Lee
Jacob W Michaels (JWMI...@bronte.oit.UMASS.EDU) wrote:
: > >And before anyone asks, I do not have sexual fantasies about pre-Zero
: > >Jeckie. :)
: > Any sexual fantasies about post-Zero Sneckie? :)
: There's a Freudian joke in there somewhere, but damned if I can
: think of it. Vorp?
Waitasec, since when did I become an expert at making sexual joke and lewd
comments? Yeesh.
--
\\ \\ Hosun Lee
\\_\\ E-Mail: ho...@syr.edu
( X-X) WWW: http://web.syr.edu/~holee/
{_^_} [Urr...Right. Umm...Some Quip Goes Here, Right?]
Tom Ewing
>On 29 Nov 1996 16:08:27 GMT, johnl...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Man, gotta feel for Val though. First he dies, brought back as a sw6
>>and dies shortly afterwards, then comes back reboot and loses the woman he loved
>>before the reboot. Unless he has a fetish for snakes. ;)
>
>Sure, anything. This guy needs some characterization. He's the only
>member of the Workforce to be almost totally glossed over. He's said
>like ten lines in the past two years!
Well, I got the impression that was sort of the point. Val has been
characterised as quiet, restrained, meditative, mature, and sensible.
In a team with Spider Girl, Inferno, and as was Jo, he well might come
off as a cypher.
So, it's a stereotypical martial artist characterisation, but it's
there.
Cheers,
Tom.
Tom Ewing (tew...@netcom.uk.co.uk)
,,,who recommends you listen to...
Aphex Twin - 'Richard D James Album' (Warp, 1996)
Nathan Sanders
In article <32a348a4...@news.demon.co.uk>,
Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
>>than suddenly becoming a snake???
>>
>>Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
>>
>>Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
>
>Out of curiosity, why did you automatically assume Dan is straight? He
>made no mention of what gender his lover would be if they changed sex.
>I'm straight, but it's been many, many years since I last made the
>automatic assumption that any given person I meet either is or isn't.
My bad, especially because I didn't even look at who said it, so I
didn't know if the poster was male or female...in fact, I know Dan
is gay, and if I had read his name, I would have stated it differently.
I chose "male" because it's easier to make a single concrete example,
rather than using a roundabout phrase like "your partner changed sex".
Similarly, I used "snake" rather than "your partner changed species".
Why "male"? I was playing the odds --- men are more prevelant on the
Net than women, and straights are more prevelant than gay men. Ergo,
I was hoping probablistically, it would just slip by. =)
Given what I know now, my last sentence should read:
"Man, heterophobia is more strongly rooted in gay men than I thought."
=)
da...@aol.com
Okay, I know I've previously posted that I really don't like the notion of
Jeckie as a snake, especially because of the way the lack of humanoids on
Orando messes with the mystic parts of the original LSH mythos and because
of the huge impact this has on other major pre-boot matters, due to
Orando's relationship to Naltor and to Zerox/Zarox/Gemworld.
Of course, the whole stunt may be an illusion- and perhaps not the
"obvious" illusion of Jeckie disguised as a Serpant. Nope, I suspect the
plot is much deeper than this- after all, the creative team DOES know the
importance that the pre-boot Jeckie's mystic history had in the LSH
mythos, and it is obvious from the many voices we've heard (or read here)
that they must be equally aware of how popular the original Jeckie is and
was.
My hunch- that the illusion the "Sovereign Serpent" projected of the
sixties-era Princess Projectra was no random coincidence from an unrelated
reptilian species from some doppleganger world coincidentally also called
"Orando."
Nope. I think there really ARE humanoids in the post-boot Orando, and that
the humanoid Jecca is one of 'em- and that this Snake being has taken on
this disguise for bigger motives than just joining the LSH- possibly
unkind motives.
Thus, a real human inhabited Orando still related to the mystic origins of
Gemworld/Zerox/Zarox and Naltor could conceivably still be in the cards,
depending how the whole snake oil play plays out.....
Just a notion from me, not based on much other than intuition and
analytical guessing- and wishful thinking for the mystical threads of the
LSH mythos' sake.
But considering that recently we were all expected to accept that this
"princess of Orando" couldn't read the cryptic text of Mordru's vault, I
for one suspect the Snake is acting. It is too coincidental for a similar
yet snake populated and not related to Gemworld version of Orando to exist
post-ZH- no mystic DCU reasoning explains it, and Gemworld is even
mentioned as existing post-boot lately in the DCU, so we have every reason
to believe that Mordru still figures into Gemworld postboot.... why would
Orando and Naltor NOT be suddenly related to all this?
UNLESS THE SNAKE IS NOT WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE- even if it Really Is a
Snake, it may not Really Be Jeckie/Jecca/Whatever.
If any people should be able to read the script on Mordru's vault,
descendant with high connections to the world most likely to have
imprisoned him there should be the likely suspects- and a Princess of such
a world should surely know what it means to unleash Mordru!
That fact alone underlines just how important to the Legion mythos as a
whole the entire Gemworld descended UP worlds link is- it, in fact, is
vital to Mordru's own importance as the major villain he should well be!
So perhaps all of us fans of the original Jeckie still have much more hope
than we might have thought? I for one have enough faith left in the
creative crew to believe that there's much more to this than we've seen
thus far, and I'm eager to read on!
LLL!
Dave Bakas
Nathan Sanders
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.961203150643.13772B-100000@birch>,
Elizabeth Celeste <jub...@grove.ufl.edu> wrote:
>I personally whould be quite happy to discover that I had a
>spouse/lover/partner. Nothing like being single to make a question
>irrelevent :)
hehe! Good point, and I whole-heartedly concur. Any takers wanna
help me make it possible to answer the question? ;)
>I pretty much have to agree with this one. Skin tone is skin tone. Big
>deal. Species could be ok, presuming that you were still working with
>humanoids. I mean think about the number of people in comic books who are
>supposed to be aliens. Who look just like regular people.
Ah...I was under the assumption that we were working with "real life"
species in this thought-experiment. Thus, the closest thing you could
get to a "regular person" would be an ape or chimp or some other
higher primate.
Hence my immediate surprise to find that some people would have less
problem with a change like than than a change of gender.
>Especially since gender tends to be the number one thing people look for
>in a mate.
For modern day Earth, yes. 2,000 years ago? Not quite. Many many
more people were practicing bisexuals. In fact, many of the bisexual
societies in ancient times didn't even have words to describe
same-gender attraction versus opposite-gender attraction.
>I have to take issue with this. It's not a homophobia thing to have
>problems with you're mate suddenly changing gender. I mean, for _most_,
>(but definatly not _all_) people, are attracted to only one gender.
It was a knee-jerk reaction for which I apologize. When I see someone
seeming to claim that they would prefer their lover change to a snake
before changing gender, I get the feeling that they are saying
that same-sex love is somehow less viable than love between species.
>Presumably switching species in a major way, or switching gender would
>both be reasons for a change in relationship.
I agree here. And again, I took "change species" as "change species
in a major way". For example, technically, changing from human to
Daxamite, for example, would not be a major change of species,
superficially.
And of course, if we assume (wrongly) that attraction is based solely
on superficial properties...
>Calling it homophobia isn't the proper response. If you were male, and
>your lover/mate/sig other was also male, then the mate was suddenly
>turned into a woman, you'd have problems too.
Not nearly as many problems as if he turned into a snake! =) I
find myself shudering more at the thought of stroking his scaly
skin than at the thought of...nevermind...
And I certainly think I would have FAR more problems kissing a snake
than a woman. =)
Sean Christian Daugherty
On 3 Dec 1996 00:22:01 GMT, richw...@aol.com wrote:
>a. Could cause complications, but livable.
True.
>b. Hmm, what *is* love, anyway?
Kinda strange, if it causes this to happen, but, I digress...
>c. Oops, now *that* could be sticky.
Oh, not neccessarily. Depends on what species. For example, "fish"
might be a major problem, unless you're a scuba diver, while, "ape"
may not be as bad a one (Of course, there are people who would swear
their spouse is ALREADY an ape, but that's entirely different :)
Sean Christian Daugherty
On Tue, 3 Dec 96 16:39:43 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
wrote:
>...Which is a fairly sad comment on the psychology of certain fans. :)
>I guess I'm looking at this from an aesthetic or creative standpoint;
>Jeka adds pretty much everything to the book that Jeckie did, plus a
>nonhumanoid.
Well, it kinda puts the skids on any kind of real relationship with
Karate Kid... I think... Who knows? :)
> In the context of a comic book, Jeka is a good creative
>touch. In contrast, simply changing a Legionnaire's sex would add
>nothing--although the Legion always did need more women, it's hard
>to change a character's sex without subconsciously altering the
>writer's portrayal. Changing a human Legionnaire's race, OTOH, would
>add an acknowledgement to that part of the comic's audience that isn't
>white--a worthwhile goal.
Yeah, but that's a lousy rationale. Why does there need to be a
reason? 'The Legion needs more aliens' is repeated everywhere, but it
doesn't NECCESSARILY. Gates was a very good choice, but not because he
was an alien, because he had a good personality. Jeka being a snake
seemed, well, odd to me, as it doesn't really seem to mean much to her
character (I'm not even talking about pre-boot Jeckie). That doesn't
mean it's a bad thing, but just putting in a character or changing
that character "politically correct" to the audience is an almost
insulting reason. Of course, I have no idea for the rationale on the
writers part, so this is all subject to change, as my initial opinion
of Gates and the new Brainy did (oh, *look*, they filled the
outcast-rogue quotient) as they developed to be less one dimensional
than they began as. Jeka being a snake doesn't need a reason, but
making her a snake instead of another, new, character (after all,
there are quite a few powerful "new" members, XS and Gates especially)
kind of bothers people (not me, I think she looks *better* as a snake)
upsets people, who, in many cases, were opposed to the reboot to begin
with.
Sean Christian Daugherty
On 2 Dec 1996 06:48:30 GMT, po...@ix.netcom.com(S L Post) wrote:
>Despite all of my anti-rabid traditionalist rhetoric I do have to say
>that I hope Jeckie (the human) is alive and well somewhere. I like
>Jeka (the snake) but the fact remains that the preboot Projectra
>(post-KK) was one of my favorites (especially as Sensor Girl)
Y'know, I was just thinking: Maybe Jeka isn't really a snake. I mean,
its kinda of amazing how much she has in common with an earth snake.
Not that she's disguised or anything, but maybe the nature of her
people is that they don't have an exact coporealness. So, her
illusions are her body, and the snake is just as much an illusion as
the human body was. Maybe the snake is sign of royalty on her planet,
and she is just the most comfortable in that form? It could also
explain the similarity to earth snakes (imported, maybe?). Just a
thought...
T. Troy McNemar, Esq.
My esteemed colleague, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>, wrote:
> Jeka adds pretty much everything to the book that Jeckie did, plus a
> nonhumanoid.
You mean "minus a humanoid." :)
Dan McEwen
Rob Hansen wrote:
>
> On 2 Dec 1996 18:15:52 GMT, syn...@cats.ucsc.edu (Nathan Sanders)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
> >>>
> >>> a) changed race?
> >>> b) changed sex?
> >>> c) changed species?
> >
> >
> >>b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
> >>as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
> >>wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
> >
> >
> >You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
> >than suddenly becoming a snake???
> >
> >Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
> >
> >Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
> >
> >--
>
> Out of curiosity, why did you automatically assume Dan is straight? He
> made no mention of what gender his lover would be if they changed sex.
> I'm straight, but it's been many, many years since I last made the
> automatic assumption that any given person I meet either is or isn't.
This is true. Of course, you and I have talked in the past, so you
already know I'm not straight.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Dan McEwen
> >morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
> >
> >a) changed race?
> >b) changed sex?
> >c) changed species?
> >
>
>
> d) changed political preference?
>
> AHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHH! : )
Now *that* could be a major problem! While I can live with difference
of opinion, if the ideaology strays _too_ far from my own, it would
probably make for big problems.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Dan McEwen
Nathan Sanders wrote:
>
> >> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
> >> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
> >>
> >> a) changed race?
> >> b) changed sex?
> >> c) changed species?
>
>
> >b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
> >as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
> >wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
>
> ?????
>
> You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
> than suddenly becoming a snake???
Didn't say that. I specifically stated that it depended on what sort of
species.
> Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
I don't know. Depends. Some alien slug-like being might be too much
for me. OTOH, if he looked like, say, Chameleon, it might not bother me
so much.
> Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
More like reverse-homophobia, which isn't accurate.. Since my lover
*is* a man, I'd find it difficult to deal with a woman. It's not that I
wouldn't still love him, but it would be a difficult adjustment.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Dan McEwen
Elizabeth Celeste wrote:
(Note to Eliz: this is cc'd to you because of your server problems. I
heard you only received three raclsh posts the other day.)
> On 2 Dec 1996, Nathan Sanders wrote:
> (Origional attributions snipped by prior poster(s):
>
> > >> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
> > >> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>
> > >> a) changed race?
> > >> b) changed sex?
> > >> c) changed species?
>
> I personally whould be quite happy to discover that I had a
> spouse/lover/partner. Nothing like being single to make a question
> irrelevent :)
Well, there's always Bobby of "Is Bobby..." fame. (This is a reference
to racmx, for those of you who don't read it.)
> > Dan McEwen <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > >b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
> > >as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
> > >wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
>
> I pretty much have to agree with this one. Skin tone is skin tone. Big
> deal. Species could be ok, presuming that you were still working with
> humanoids. I mean think about the number of people in comic books who are
> supposed to be aliens. Who look just like regular people.
>
> As a species example, take Zoe.
>
> She comes home with a tail and funky ears. Not a major problem for her
> significant other to deal with.
>
> If she had come home as a snake, that would have been a problem.
>
> Gender however, does have a lot to do with sexual attraction. ANd if Zoe
> had returned to Legion HQ a boy, that would have coused a lot more
> problems then the aqusiton of a tail.
>
> Especially since gender tends to be the number one thing people look for
> in a mate.
Exactly. While I'd still love him, if he had been a woman when I met
him we'd never have become involved.
> > ?????
> > You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
> > than suddenly becoming a snake???
> > Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
> > Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
>
> I have to take issue with this. It's not a homophobia thing to have
> problems with you're mate suddenly changing gender. I mean, for _most_,
> (but definatly not _all_) people, are attracted to only one gender.
Correct. I happen to be attracted to men, so a woman might we a little
bit difficult for me.
> Presumably switching species in a major way, or switching gender would
> both be reasons for a change in relationship.
Yes. If my lover turned into Jeka, I might have some problems.
> Calling it homophobia isn't the proper response. If you were male, and
> your lover/mate/sig other was also male, then the mate was suddenly
> turned into a woman, you'd have problems too.
>
> Eliz- who thinks that probably it's all a major case of speciesism anyway.
> Sombody ought to ask this question of Gates. :)
Weren't we told that Gates would never date outside his species?
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Dan McEwen
dscot...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <5835a3$f...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, syn...@cats.ucsc.edu (Nathan
> Sanders) writes:
>
> >Ah...I was under the assumption that we were working with "real life"
> >species in this thought-experiment. Thus, the closest thing you could
> >get to a "regular person" would be an ape or chimp or some other
> >higher primate.
> >
> >Hence my immediate surprise to find that some people would have less
> >problem with a change like than than a change of gender.
>
> significant change, followed by gender, and *closed off* with species.
> Does anyone have the original message still?
>
I'm pretty sure I said gender would be hardest. I did say, however, the
species could be harder depending on the appearance. Nathan was
assuming a non-humanoid being, whereas I was considering that as a
possibility. Based on that assumption, I understand his view. And also
based on that assumption, species would become a more significant factor
than gender.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Nathan Sanders
In article <32A67E...@worldnet.att.net>,
Dan McEwen <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Didn't say that. I specifically stated that it depended on what sort of
>species.
True --- though I was assuming a change into a "real" species, and I
was appalled to think that there would be some species (ape? dolphin?)
that you would find preferable to a different gender.
>> Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
>
>More like reverse-homophobia, which isn't accurate.. Since my lover
>*is* a man, I'd find it difficult to deal with a woman. It's not that I
>wouldn't still love him, but it would be a difficult adjustment.
This is my fault for automatically assuming you were straight (if I
had actually *read* the attributions, i would have known better...)
Acting on the assumption that you were straight, I was dumbfounded
to think that there would be species' you would find preferable to
a man. Real species that is.
Now it's all clear, I look like a dufus, and all is right with the
world. =)
Rob Hansen
On Thu, 05 Dec 1996 00:48:10 -0700, Dan McEwen
<djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Nathan Sanders wrote:
>> You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
>> than suddenly becoming a snake???
>
>Didn't say that. I specifically stated that it depended on what sort of
>species.
>
>> Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
>
>I don't know. Depends. Some alien slug-like being might be too much
>for me. OTOH, if he looked like, say, Chameleon, it might not bother me
>so much.
Particularly since his power would enable him to become the image of
your perfect lover, and his total control over the shape of all his
body parts could be....interesting.
Rob Hansen
>Rob Hansen wrote:
>>
>> On 2 Dec 1996 18:15:52 GMT, syn...@cats.ucsc.edu (Nathan Sanders)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>> As a thought experiment, how would you react if you woke up one
>> >>> morning to discover your spouse/lover/partner had:
>> >>>
>> >>> a) changed race?
>> >>> b) changed sex?
>> >>> c) changed species?
>> >
>> >Dan McEwen <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>b) would be the hardest to overcome, although I guess c) could be just
>> >>as bad, depending on which said new species looked like. a) probably
>> >>wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
>> >
>> >?????
>> >
>> >You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
>> >than suddenly becoming a snake???
>> >
>> >Exactly what species would you be less opposed to your lover becoming?
>> >
>> >Man, homophobia is much more strongly rooted than I thought.
>> >
>> >Nathan
>> >--
>>
>> Out of curiosity, why did you automatically assume Dan is straight? He
>> made no mention of what gender his lover would be if they changed sex.
>> I'm straight, but it's been many, many years since I last made the
>> automatic assumption that any given person I meet either is or isn't.
>
>This is true. Of course, you and I have talked in the past, so you
>already know I'm not straight.
>--
Indeed I do, but I wasn't sure whether Nathan did so, in order not to
have it influence his reply, I deliberately didn't mention it in my
response to him. The responses to my thought experiment have been kind
of interesting, and I'm certainly heartened that no-one (at least
no-one who's responded) would find a partner changing race to be a
problem. As I've mentioned before, I've had lovers from a variety of
races, and while it's a little odd thinking of any of them changing
race, it wouldn't be a problem since their race wasn't what attracted
me to any of them anyway.
Dan McEwen
Rob Hansen wrote:
>
> On Thu, 05 Dec 1996 00:48:10 -0700, Dan McEwen
> <djmc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Nathan Sanders wrote:
>
> >> You'd have more difficulty coping with your lover suddenly becoming male
> >> than suddenly becoming a snake???
> >
> >species.
> >
> >
> >for me. OTOH, if he looked like, say, Chameleon, it might not bother me
> >so much.
>
> Particularly since his power would enable him to become the image of
> your perfect lover, and his total control over the shape of all his
> body parts could be....interesting.
Actually, I picked Chameleon based on his humanoid appearance. While
clearly human-like, no one would ever mistake Chameleon for an Earth
human. I wasn't even thinking of his powers.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Elmo Attacks!
"Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu> writes:
> Jeka adds pretty much everything to the book that Jeckie did,
Except the relationship with Val. Which was, after all, the second most
important feature of Jeckie's character (right after being Crown Princess,
then Queen).
> In contrast, simply changing a Legionnaire's sex would add
> nothing--although the Legion always did need more women,
Not really; it's had a majority of female members, it's had a variety
of female leaders. With the possible exception of the X-Men, it's clearly
the most progressive mainstream team in this respect.
--
"That would make Michael Crichton the pawn of Gorilla city. Hmmm. Pop culture
written at the direction of intelligent animals.... Sounds like something
Crichton would've come up with on his own...or something the gorillas _want_
us to think he'd come up with on his own...which is, of course, how he'd write
the book/screenplay anyway.... Help, I'm caught in an infinite sarcasm loop!"
--Randy Patton
elmo mor...@physics.rice.edu
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
michael
Sean Christian Daugherty wrote:
>
> On Tue, 3 Dec 96 16:39:43 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >...Which is a fairly sad comment on the psychology of certain fans. :)
> >I guess I'm looking at this from an aesthetic or creative standpoint;
> >Jeka adds pretty much everything to the book that Jeckie did, plus a
> >nonhumanoid.
>
> Well, it kinda puts the skids on any kind of real relationship with
> Karate Kid... I think... Who knows? :)
>
> > In the context of a comic book, Jeka is a good creative
> >nothing--although the Legion always did need more women, it's hard
> >to change a character's sex without subconsciously altering the
> >writer's portrayal. Changing a human Legionnaire's race, OTOH, would
> >add an acknowledgement to that part of the comic's audience that isn't
> >white--a worthwhile goal.
>
> Yeah, but that's a lousy rationale. Why does there need to be a
> reason? 'The Legion needs more aliens' is repeated everywhere, but it
> doesn't NECCESSARILY. Gates was a very good choice, but not because he
> was an alien, because he had a good personality. Jeka being a snake
> seemed, well, odd to me, as it doesn't really seem to mean much to her
> character (I'm not even talking about pre-boot Jeckie). That doesn't
> mean it's a bad thing, but just putting in a character or changing
> that character "politically correct" to the audience is an almost
> insulting reason. Of course, I have no idea for the rationale on the
> writers part, so this is all subject to change, as my initial opinion
> of Gates and the new Brainy did (oh, *look*, they filled the
> outcast-rogue quotient) as they developed to be less one dimensional
> than they began as. Jeka being a snake doesn't need a reason, but
> making her a snake instead of another, new, character (after all,
> there are quite a few powerful "new" members, XS and Gates especially)
> kind of bothers people (not me, I think she looks *better* as a snake)
> upsets people, who, in many cases, were opposed to the reboot to begin
> with.
Would you feel the same way if Superman had been rebooted into a snake?
-Michael
Ben Weiss
On Wed, 04 Dec 1996 20:24:12 GMT,
Sean Christian Daugherty <sean...@erols.com > wrote:
>On Tue, 3 Dec 96 16:39:43 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu>
>wrote:
>
>
>>...Which is a fairly sad comment on the psychology of certain fans. :)
>>I guess I'm looking at this from an aesthetic or creative standpoint;
>>Jeka adds pretty much everything to the book that Jeckie did, plus a
>>nonhumanoid.
>
>Well, it kinda puts the skids on any kind of real relationship with
>Karate Kid... I think... Who knows? :)
My definitive-mental Jeckie is Sensor Girl, i.e. after Val was no
longer around--I tend not to think of the relationship with Val as
fundamental to the character because so much of Jeckie's development
came after Val's death. YMMV.
>> In the context of a comic book, Jeka is a good creative
>>touch. In contrast, simply changing a Legionnaire's sex would add
>>nothing--although the Legion always did need more women, it's hard
>>to change a character's sex without subconsciously altering the
>>writer's portrayal. Changing a human Legionnaire's race, OTOH, would
>>add an acknowledgement to that part of the comic's audience that isn't
>>white--a worthwhile goal.
>
>Yeah, but that's a lousy rationale. Why does there need to be a
>reason? 'The Legion needs more aliens' is repeated everywhere, but it
>doesn't NECCESSARILY.
It's kind of a matter of logic--in a society with that many species,
it hardly makes sense for the whole team to have the same body plan
(give or take antennae).
Gates was a very good choice, but not because he
>was an alien, because he had a good personality. Jeka being a snake
>seemed, well, odd to me, as it doesn't really seem to mean much to her
>character (I'm not even talking about pre-boot Jeckie).
Gates' alien aspect didn't get dealt with until later either. And I
tend to put Jeka in a class with Gates--a Legionnaire with an
interesting personality who also happens to be an alien.
That doesn't
>mean it's a bad thing, but just putting in a character or changing
>that character "politically correct" to the audience is an almost
>insulting reason.
If you're talking about my race comment above, the reality is the
opposite. As a poster to this group named Michael (no last name
given) pointed out a while back, people of color do read comic books,
and it's invisibility (along with stereotyping) that they (by and
large) find to be "insulting," not overdue change for the sake of
reality. What does it say to, say, a Hispanic 13-year-old if, as far
as anyone can tell, the "future" doesn't include anyone from his
culture? (Recall that Shooter wanted to make Ferro and Shady black,
but got shot down by DC on grounds that a comic with black team
members wouldn't sell in the South--racism *does* play a part in the
Legion's mostly monochromatic state.) As I've mentioned before, one
Native American 14-year-old of my acquaintance has told me he prefers
Milestone to the Legion precisely because the Legion universe feels
overwhelmingly white (and middle-class), even though the Legion,
unlike any Milestone team, has had a Native American member.
>Jeka being a snake doesn't need a reason, but
>making her a snake instead of another, new, character (after all,
>there are quite a few powerful "new" members, XS and Gates especially)
>kind of bothers people (not me, I think she looks *better* as a snake)
>upsets people, who, in many cases, were opposed to the reboot to begin
>with.
A lot of the new Legionnaires introduced for diversity's sake have not
fared well in fan reaction--Tyroc, Tellus, Quislet, Invisible Kid II,
Computo, Dragonmage and Catspaw (not to mention Kid Quantum) all
finished very low in my Ideal Legion Lineup poll a while back. I'm
sure the reason was not because of race or species, but I think part
of it is that it's very hard to introduce new characters who fit into
the feel or legend of the team. XS and Gates do this very well, and
Kinetix (who finished fairly low in the poll) is beginning to do so
more, but introducing a whole lot of new characters tends to change
the overall feel of the book (and also crowd out established
characters, all of whom are somebody's favorite--long live the White
Witch!!). The writers may not have wanted to gamble with too many
totally new faces. (Of course, I'll have to see if Magno sticks
around very long before I can argue this *too* strenuously...)
Ben
dscot...@aol.com
>Would you feel the same way if Superman had been rebooted into a snake?
>
>
I don't think that's *quite* a fair comparison. First, there's a
precedent
for non-human main characters in LSH, while in the S-Books, all of
the major characters are at least humanoid. Also, Superman is the
main focus of the book. The equivalent would be "What if the Legion
was a team of super-powered snakes in the future?"
Dave Doty
Sean Christian Daugherty
On Fri, 06 Dec 1996 14:44:04 -0500, michael <ml...@cas.org> wrote:
>Would you feel the same way if Superman had been rebooted into a snake?
Yeah, sure, why not? He might have a problem passing himself off as
Clark Kent, but, hey, I'm open minded.
Four out of five doctors recommend official
Sean C. Daugherty
Usenet postings to Brand X!
Isn't it time you made the switch?
Daniel McEwen
Sean Christian Daugherty wrote:
>
> On Fri, 06 Dec 1996 14:44:04 -0500, michael <ml...@cas.org> wrote:
>
> >Would you feel the same way if Superman had been rebooted into a snake?
>
> Yeah, sure, why not? He might have a problem passing himself off as
> Clark Kent, but, hey, I'm open minded.
I wouldn't care much, anyway. I was never a fan of Superman _except_
during the Byrne and Perez eras. As for this actually happening, well,
unless you can convince DC he's not such a hot property, I don't see it.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Daniel McEwen
Foutz wrote:
>
> Dan McEwen wrote:
> >
> > No, PL Jeckie was better than Jeka, but TMK Jeckie sucked, IMO. .
>
> You mean you liked that If-I-kill-Nemesis-Kid-who-has-only-killed-my-
> husband-then-it-is-a-justified-execution-but-if-I-kill-the-Emerald
> Empress-who-has-only-killed-a-couple-of-dozen-people-I-do-not-know
> then-I-am-a-murderor. What was Levitz thinking? Projectra had already
> killed Nemesis Kid in cold blood without guilt, what was so bad about
> killing the Empress by accident? She deserved death alot more than
> Nemesis Kid.
>
You can justifiably blame Jeckie for killing Nemesis Kid, but not the
Emerald Empress. Jeckie was under the impression that hiding Sarya from
the Eye would free her of its influence. She had no idea it would also
kill Sarya. Jeckie was clearly upset when Sarya died. And, yes, that's
the Jeckie I like better.
--
Dan
fe...@lsh.org
Michael Klordny Grabois
On Fri, 6 Dec 96 20:43:17 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>(Recall that Shooter wanted to make Ferro and Shady black,
>but got shot down by DC on grounds that a comic with black team
>members wouldn't sell in the South--racism *does* play a part in the
>Legion's mostly monochromatic state.)
[more snippage]
I've seen this before, but no one has any concrete proof that this is what he
wanted. Can anyone provide *ANY* interview in which this can be verified?
-----
Michael R. Grabois | http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mgrabois
Houston, TX | or...@ix.netcom.com CI$: 74737,2600
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do me a favor, Lightning Lad... shut up and dance!" (S/LSH 232)
Hal Shipman
>[snip]
>[more snippage]
No printed interview, but he told me about Ferro Lad himself during a
conversation we had over lunch at this summer's Chicago ComicsCon.
The conversation specifically regarded diversity in comics. This was
with Shooter, J.J. Jackson (a writer for Broadway), a friend of mine
working on a documentary on gays in comics (which is how he met Jim),
and me.
He said Ferro was created as cannon fodder - he wanted to kill off a
Legionnaire as an example of heroic sacrifice, but knew he couldn't do
it with any of the Legionnaires he inherited. So he created his own
Legionnaires to do it with.
He changed his mind after a few months and wanted to keep Ferro Lad
and have him fairly casually remove his mask, be shown to be black,
and have no one react. The Powers That Be (I believe Weisinger), said
"No." for the reason above. So, he went ahead with his martyr story.
He didn't say anything about Shadow Lass, though.
He did sign my copies of the intro and death of F-Lad.
Concrete enough?
Hal.
************************************************************************
* I don't wear no Stetson, * Hal Shipman *
* But I'm willin' to bet, son, * 643 W. Roscoe, B3 *
* That I'm as big a Texan as you are. * Chicago, IL 60657 *
* "Amarillo Highway," Robert Earl Keen * 773/880-0312 *
************************************************************************
Foutz
Dan McEwen wrote:
>
> No, PL Jeckie was better than Jeka, but TMK Jeckie sucked, IMO. .
You mean you liked that If-I-kill-Nemesis-Kid-who-has-only-killed-my-
husband-then-it-is-a-justified-execution-but-if-I-kill-the-Emerald
Empress-who-has-only-killed-a-couple-of-dozen-people-I-do-not-know
then-I-am-a-murderor. What was Levitz thinking? Projectra had already
killed Nemesis Kid in cold blood without guilt, what was so bad about
killing the Empress by accident? She deserved death alot more than
Nemesis Kid.
Comma Kid aka Lauren Foutz <pfo...@vt.edu>
"Drat, I can't think of a quote." John F. Kennedy
richw...@aol.com
Ben Weiss writes:
>A lot of the new Legionnaires introduced for diversity's sake have not
>fared well in fan reaction--Tyroc, Tellus, Quislet, Invisible Kid II,
>Computo, Dragonmage and Catspaw (not to mention Kid Quantum) all
>finished very low in my Ideal Legion Lineup poll a while back.
Tyroc - one of the lamest powers ever // underused
Tellus - a giant ?slug, bug, lobster? whatever but non-human
Quislet - cute, but essentially a metallic bug
I Kid II - well written by PL, but never fully developed
lack of romance hurt him
Computo - 2d lamest power? Too new and underused/developed
DragonMage - Asiatic male White Witch - redundant
Catspaw - race: unknown // characterization: lame
Out of 7 characters, only 4 of discernable ethnic group, and only
I Kid used enough to really be called an effort
>I'm
>sure the reason was not because of race or species, but I think part
>of it is that it's very hard to introduce new characters who fit into
>the feel or legend of the team.
Very true.
>XS and Gates do this very well, and
>Kinetix (who finished fairly low in the poll) is beginning to do so
>more, but introducing a whole lot of new characters tends to change
>the overall feel of the book (and also crowd out established
>characters, all of whom are somebody's favorite--long live the White
>Witch!!). The writers may not have wanted to gamble with too many
>totally new faces. (Of course, I'll have to see if Magno sticks
>around very long before I can argue this *too* strenuously...)
Ohh. Idea. If Magno is *not* the suspected traitor (suspected
by fandom, of course), then is he scheduled to die soon?
Back to the topic: a character is only as good as they are written.
Characterization seldom depends on the powers, which can change,
or the ethnic group, which can often be ignored. Gates is becoming
popular because he gets all the good lines, not because he is a bug,
nor because of his outstanding powers. Same for B5 after the last
couple issues.
There is absolutely NO reason why the creators should introduce
another new character who is white, unless:
1) the character is from previous continuity and they feel the
change would upset fandom (as in let's make Chemical
King [the ethnic group of your choice])
2) The character is related to another character in current
continuity
3) The character is a disguised character from current continuity
Otherwise, the character ought to be representative of Galactic
population (which is what?).
What is the current world population and porportion of races?
Comments, critiques, and additions?
Rich Whitten
Hal Shipman
>a friend of mine
>working on a documentary on gays in comics (which is how he met Jim),
Ahem, sorry, it was pointed out to me that I should >really< read
these better before I hit "Send."
My friend, a graduate student in the Film Department of Columbia
College (Chicago - NOT Columbia Univ.), interviewed Jim in his
capacity as a publisher and comics professional on the portrayal of
gays in the medium.
I did not mean to imply that he was a gay in the comics industry.
'Cause I don't know whether he is or isn't. Though I'd assume from
the context of the discussion AND the fact that he thinks his
"Rampaging Hulk"/Attempted rape of Banner in the YMCA showers story
was somehow pro-gay that he isn't.
Really interesting and nice guy, though.
Apologies -
Basil D Tsiokos
Hal Shipman (hshi...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael "Klordny" Grabois) wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 6 Dec 96 20:43:17 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> >[snip]
>
> >>(Recall that Shooter wanted to make Ferro and Shady black,
> >>but got shot down by DC on grounds that a comic with black team
> >>members wouldn't sell in the South--racism *does* play a part in the
> >>Legion's mostly monochromatic state.)
>
> >[more snippage]
>
> >I've seen this before, but no one has any concrete proof that this is what he
> >wanted. Can anyone provide *ANY* interview in which this can be verified?
>
> He didn't say anything about Shadow Lass, though.
hm, if i remember correctly, hints towards this were given in a lettercol
right before Shady joined up (maybe two or three issues before the fact).
a letter writer complained about the lack of black representation, and the
editor's (?) answer was something like "wait'll you see who's coming up"
or something like that. i'm totally working from memory, though, so i
could be wrong. anyone who has the issues handy, take a look, would you?
b
dscot...@aol.com
>You mean you liked that If-I-kill-Nemesis-Kid-who-has-only-killed-my-
>husband-then-it-is-a-justified-execution-but-if-I-kill-the-Emerald
>Empress-who-has-only-killed-a-couple-of-dozen-people-I-do-not-know
>then-I-am-a-murderor. What was Levitz thinking? Projectra had already
>killed Nemesis Kid in cold blood without guilt, what was so bad about
>killing the Empress by accident? She deserved death alot more than
>Nemesis Kid.
Jeckie was raised in a monarchy, to be a monarch. She would thus
really *believe* in the concept of divine right (or the Mandate of Heaven,
or some similar concept.) In v3.5, she was acting fully within her
role as a sovereign, executing someone who had committed. . .
um, probably not technically regicide, but something damn close.
In the later story, she was acting only as herself. Many real-life
monarchs have distinguished between acting as themselves, and
acting as the state, when they are quite literally the living embodiment
of their nation. It seems like a silly rationale for doing anything
they like to us, but to someone raised in the culture, it would be
a very real moral dilemma, in which Jeckie would feel that she had
lost the moral authority to do some things she would otherwise.
Also, did Sarya ever kill any Orandan citizens? I'm sure that Val
was a naturalized citizen when he was killed, and was thus
rightfully under the protection of Orando's justice system.
Dave Doty
Dave Doty
"Is it cheating if you tell me whether I grew up to be pretty?"
"You. . . you grew up beautiful, Kara!"
dscot...@aol.com
In article <19961208055...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
richw...@aol.com writes:
>Otherwise, the character ought to be representative of Galactic
>population (which is what?).
>
>What is the current world population and porportion of races?
I agree the team needs diversity, but when you start talking
population proportions and representation, you're starting to
talk quotas, which is hardly conducive to creative endeavor.
Foutz
dscot...@aol.com wrote:
> Jeckie was raised in a monarchy, to be a monarch. She would thus
> really *believe* in the concept of divine right (or the Mandate of Heaven,
> or some similar concept.) In v3.5, she was acting fully within her
> role as a sovereign, executing someone who had committed. . .
> um, probably not technically regicide, but something damn close.
If that had been the case she would have left the job to an executioner
instead of doing it herself. No, she was mad that Nemesis Kid killed
her husband, so she killed him in revenge. But when it came to someone
that had not killed anyone close to her (The Emerald Empress) she was
crushed when she died accidentally.
Leviz had the Legionnaires kill in revenge when ever another Legionnaire
died. Take the conspiracy story. Not only did the Legionnaires kill
the Time Trapper, who was drained of power after the Pocket Universe
story, but they also killed th Infinite Man who was at the moment
harmless until they purposely released him. I would not have hated the
killing so much if the Legionnaires did not murder people then quote
their holier than thou no killing clause in their constitution.
Sidne Ward
or...@ix.netcom.com (Michael "Klordny" Grabois) writes:
>On Fri, 6 Dec 96 20:43:17 CST, "Ben Weiss" <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>[snip]
>>(Recall that Shooter wanted to make Ferro and Shady black,
>>but got shot down by DC on grounds that a comic with black team
>>members wouldn't sell in the South--racism *does* play a part in the
>>Legion's mostly monochromatic state.)
>[more snippage]
>I've seen this before, but no one has any concrete proof that this is what he
>wanted. Can anyone provide *ANY* interview in which this can be verified?
More specifically, can anyone provide any interview (or other proof) that
came out anywhere near the time of Shooter's original tenure on the
Legion?
I loved the Shooter/Swan era, but this story has always seemed just a tad
suspect to me. I wonder if maybe this isn't just Shooter remembering
things the way he wants to rather than as they actually occured.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@sky.net
sw...@primenet.com
Ben Weiss
Rich Whitten wrote:
>What is the current world population and proportion of races?
The U.S. and Canada combined have about 280 million people. The U.S.
population is about 75% "white;" adding Canada would drive the
percentage up.
Latin America has about 400 million people. Europe has about 600
million; Russia adds about 150 million mostly-white people.
Sub-Saharan Africa has about 600 million people. Australia and the
Pacific have maybe 20 million. The Middle East and North Africa
account for about 300 million.
That adds up to about half the Earth's people. All the rest are
Asian. China has over a billion, and another billion live on the
Indian subcontinent. Indonesia has about 200 million, Japan 120
million, and Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand, Myanmar and South
Korea each have over 50 million.
Ben
Rob Hansen
On Sun, 08 Dec 1996 05:15:58 GMT, hshi...@ix.netcom.com (Hal Shipman)
wrote:
>>a friend of mine
>>working on a documentary on gays in comics (which is how he met Jim),
>
>Ahem, sorry, it was pointed out to me that I should >really< read
>these better before I hit "Send."
>
>My friend, a graduate student in the Film Department of Columbia
>College (Chicago - NOT Columbia Univ.), interviewed Jim in his
>capacity as a publisher and comics professional on the portrayal of
>gays in the medium.
>
>I did not mean to imply that he was a gay in the comics industry.
>
>'Cause I don't know whether he is or isn't. Though I'd assume from
>the context of the discussion AND the fact that he thinks his
>"Rampaging Hulk"/Attempted rape of Banner in the YMCA showers story
>was somehow pro-gay that he isn't.
I was just re-reading a contemporary interview with Shooter (COMICS
JOURNAL #60 - Nov '80) and in that he claims that the story is based
on a true incident that happened to a friend of his who spent a night
at the YMCA in New York as a teenager. At no point does he claim the
story is pro-gay, tho' he does express surprise that it was seen as
anti-gay since, so far as he was concerned, the story is about the
trauma of a rape attempt rather than homosexuality per se. He may well
genuinely have believed this, but given there hadn't been too many
portrayals of gays in comics to that point such an interpretation was
inevitable.
Sean Christian Daugherty
On 8 Dec 1996 05:58:58 GMT, richw...@aol.com wrote:
>Tellus - a giant ?slug, bug, lobster? whatever but non-human
Yeah, but he was cool, anyway.
>Quislet - cute, but essentially a metallic bug
Now, of course, you realize you must die under the laws of the QAS
(Quislet Appreciation Society). You will be summarily executed soon.
POOP-A-DOOP!
>Ohh. Idea. If Magno is *not* the suspected traitor (suspected
>by fandom, of course), then is he scheduled to die soon?
NO! There is way to much of this going around. The Legion has to
settle down and stop trying to shake up the entire team every other
issue.
richw...@aol.com
Ben Weiss <weis...@gold.tc.umn.edu> writes:
Thanks, Ben. Looks like the "meta-gene" shows up mostly in the
U.S. population, doesn't it... Environment, chemicals, fallout, or
space aliens? <g>
Rich Whitten
Robert S Kleinedler
I think the metagene shows up in America most often because we are the
most mutt-like (we interbreed nationality-wise the most). It takes
combinations of the metagene from different strains to make it most
likely to be active. Just the opposite of Hitler's take on the
Ubermensch. Hybrids are usually stronger
michael j pastor iii
using my boyfriends account
Rob Hansen
>I think the metagene shows up in America most often because we are the
>most mutt-like (we interbreed nationality-wise the most). It takes
>combinations of the metagene from different strains to make it most
>likely to be active. Just the opposite of Hitler's take on the
>Ubermensch. Hybrids are usually stronger
For some reason, this reminds me irresistably of one of my favourite
(genuine) newspaper headlines:
INCEST MORE COMMON THAN THOUGHT IN US
David H.
On Thu, 12 Dec 1996 19:31:42 -0500, Robert S Kleinedler
<rs...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>I think the metagene shows up in America most often because we are the
>most mutt-like (we interbreed nationality-wise the most). It takes
>combinations of the metagene from different strains to make it most
>likely to be active. Just the opposite of Hitler's take on the
>Ubermensch. Hybrids are usually stronger
>
>michael j pastor iii
>using my boyfriends account
Easily the best fictional explanation I've heard yet!
Of course, the real reason is that most comics readers and writers are
white American men!
David H.
Friends don't let friends buy Packard Bell computers!
Hal Shipman
Rob Hansen wrote:
> At no point does he claim the
> story is pro-gay, tho' he does express surprise that it was seen as
I'm supposed to go through the footage of the Shooter interview next
week (I haven't seen it yet - it happened before my lunch) and I'll
confirm the quote then.
Hal.
--