LSH: AOL Chat for 5/1 with McCraw, Peyer & Moy
Muddled Elmo
tro...@indirect.com (T. Troy McNemar, Esq.) writes:
> McCraw reported that it was a creative group decision to kill
> Douglas Nolan. McCraw admitted that there were other ways to
> write the character out of the stories, but the creative team
> decided to go with this method.
Y'know, maybe it's me, but, gee, wouldn't a heroic reformation by
Douglas due to his brother's example have been more entertaining
and more inspirational? It frees Douglas up to take care of
the mutants and it frees Andrew up to join with the Legion.
As it is, Andrew inherits Douglas's responsibilities.
Death sucks, and I don't like reading about it on a general basis,
and I especially don't like it being as common in the Legion as it
is.
--
"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better
than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." --A Yale University management
professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight
delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)
elmo mor...@physics.rice.edu
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Hernan Espinoza
mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Muddled Elmo) writes:
RE: Douglas Nolan
>Y'know, maybe it's me, but, gee, wouldn't a heroic reformation by
>Douglas due to his brother's example have been more entertaining
>and more inspirational?
Almost anything would have been more entertaining, but a heroic
reformation? Frankly, YAWN. That's the way I expected the story to end
and it would have been even *more* disappointing that what I did read.
I dunno, the whole package (writing/art/plot/etc.) was just so bad...
I'm not sure what would have saved it for me, but a hokey little happy
ending wrapped in bow would have made it worse, IMO.
Brothers. The same powers. Different lives. The stories
thay could have had....SQUANDERED! Whatta waste. (An easy redemption
would have been a waste too, but at least it could be exploited)
> It frees Douglas up to take care of
>the mutants and it frees Andrew up to join with the Legion.
>As it is, Andrew inherits Douglas's responsibilities.
I don't see that. As far as I could see, Douglas had no
responsibilities to speak of....what's to inherit? What if
Douglas didn't want to take care of the mutants? What if he wanted
to go with his brother or make his brother stay? Argh. So many
possible stories...gone.
>Death sucks,
She does not....althought that last miniseries did...phew! 8-)
-Hernan
Rob Hansen
On 6 May 97 00:17:02 -0600, mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Muddled Elmo)
wrote:
>tro...@indirect.com (T. Troy McNemar, Esq.) writes:
>> McCraw reported that it was a creative group decision to kill
>> Douglas Nolan. McCraw admitted that there were other ways to
>> write the character out of the stories, but the creative team
>> decided to go with this method.
>
>Y'know, maybe it's me, but, gee, wouldn't a heroic reformation by
>Douglas due to his brother's example have been more entertaining
>and more inspirational?
Oh, the hackneyed old redemption bit. The number of Hollywood movies
that have been ruined by having one of these tacked on to the end.....
>Death sucks, and I don't like reading about it on a general basis,
>and I especially don't like it being as common in the Legion as it
>is.
Death is part of the cycle of life, and we are finite beings. I have
no problem with this, nor with it being depicted in the Legion.
However, if it _is_ going to be done then the deaths should _mean_
something. They shouldn't be so meaningless - as Douglas' was - that
your reaction is "ho hum".
Rob Hansen
================================================
My Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
Feminists Against Censorship:
http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/
Jacob W Michaels
Rob Hansen (r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>Death is part of the cycle of life, and we are finite beings. I have
>no problem with this, nor with it being depicted in the Legion.
>However, if it _is_ going to be done then the deaths should _mean_
>something. They shouldn't be so meaningless - as Douglas' was - that
>your reaction is "ho hum".
I disagree. Death is often meaningless. There was no meaning when my
best friend's mother died of cancer. There would have been no meaning
had I died when I fell asleep while driving a few days ago. The challenge
for the writers is to make us feel bad about the meaningless deaths.
I'd refer them (and readers) to the first couple pages of last week's
Spider-Man Team Up, but Kurt Busiek. In it, a security guard who we've
never seen before is killed, but Kurt makes us feel bad for the guard,
his friends and his family. I don't feel bad when a character dies in
the Legion books.
Jacob
Ergonometer Elmo
r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk (Rob Hansen) writes:
> mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Muddled Elmo) wrote:
>>Y'know, maybe it's me, but, gee, wouldn't a heroic reformation by
>>Douglas due to his brother's example have been more entertaining
>>and more inspirational?
>
> Oh, the hackneyed old redemption bit. The number of Hollywood movies
> that have been ruined by having one of these tacked on to the end.....
As opposed to the hackneyed old dead-brother bit?
If I may draw an analogy: The reboot reminds me of slash and burn
agriculture. They come upon a patch of jungle, burn it down, grow
a couple of issues' worth of crops on it, and then move on to the
next patch, leaving behind only blasted soil unfit for any future
cultivation.
Douglas Nolan? We don't need him after this issue, let's kill him.
Sklar? We may get the Sklarian *Pirates* out of Mordru's fit of pique,
but we won't get the Sklarian *Raiders*--the people who resorted to
stealing the technology the UP wouldn't give them. (How many Sklarians
were offworld--a hundred? A thousand?)
Leviathan, Naltor and its daughters, the list goes on. Soil made
infertile by profligate use.
They're supposed to be building a universe.
> However, if it _is_ going to be done then the deaths should _mean_
> something. They shouldn't be so meaningless - as Douglas' was - that
> your reaction is "ho hum".
Absolutely. I can get meaningless death in real life; I read fiction for
something more.
--
"You can tell the ideals of a nation by its advertisements."
--Norman Douglas
elmo mor...@physics.rice.edu
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
JD
In article <1997May...@riph7.rice.edu>, mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Ergonometer Elmo) writes:
> r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk (Rob Hansen) writes:
> If I may draw an analogy: The reboot reminds me of slash and burn
> agriculture. They come upon a patch of jungle, burn it down, grow
> a couple of issues' worth of crops on it, and then move on to the
> next patch, leaving behind only blasted soil unfit for any future
> cultivation.
>
Too true. My question is, "What happens when we run out of old material to
steal story ideas from, where do we go then?"
I mean we've almost got the SUBS, the Wanderers haven't shown up yet, Impulse's
own book has taken his part, we can go a little furter into the probably going
to be destroyed Uncanny Amazers, maybe a few more clashes with The Workforce,
turn Lori into Glorith, restore MYsa to youth, bring the Team 20 back to the
30, that's realyl it. I mean heck, they already covered Phase in the 20th
century (one of my personal big questions, which kinda answers my question
about Booster Gold, "He's fro man alternate Future".). They pulled off the
Superboy thing...
I mean heck what's after that, "Space Whales"????
-JD (I used to collect those Digest LSH books...)
--
Q: "I'VE READ THAT YOU CAN GET SUPERPOWERS BY HITTING YOURSELF ABOUT THE
HEAD WITH A MALLET. IS THIS TRUE?"
A: "No."
On Acquiring Superpowers, p11 "How to be a Superhero" ISBN# 0-14-014396-3
marq...@miavx1.muohio.edu -- Joshua Marquart -- www.muohio.edu/~marquajd
Hernan Espinoza
marq...@miavx1.muohio.edu (JD) writes:
> mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Ergonometer Elmo) writes:
>> If I may draw an analogy: The reboot reminds me of slash and burn
>> agriculture. They come upon a patch of jungle, burn it down, grow
>> a couple of issues' worth of crops on it, and then move on to the
>> next patch, leaving behind only blasted soil unfit for any future
>> cultivation.
>>
>> They are supposed to be building a Universe.
I agree. There have been too many squandered resources...
>Too true. My question is, "What happens when we run out of old material to
>steal story ideas from, where do we go then?"
Where they should have gone in the first place...new material.
There are a million directions they can go in *IF* they free themselves
with this fascination with old Legion stories.
<snip> various subplots and speculations
>I mean heck what's after that, "Space Whales"????
You don't *really* think that the number of stories one could
tell about the Legion stops with stories they have told/set up, do you?
Personally, I think things will be better once they've gotten all of
the old stories they feel they have to tell out of the way and start
building a new reality. If that's not what the reboot was for, then
they shouldn't have done it.
-Hernan, waste not, want not.
Rob Hansen
On 6 May 97 16:01:05 GMT, espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza)
wrote:
>mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Muddled Elmo) writes:
>
>RE: Douglas Nolan
>
>>Y'know, maybe it's me, but, gee, wouldn't a heroic reformation by
>>Douglas due to his brother's example have been more entertaining
>>and more inspirational?
>
> Almost anything would have been more entertaining, but a heroic
>reformation? Frankly, YAWN. That's the way I expected the story to end
>and it would have been even *more* disappointing that what I did read.
>I dunno, the whole package (writing/art/plot/etc.) was just so bad...
>I'm not sure what would have saved it for me, but a hokey little happy
>ending wrapped in bow would have made it worse, IMO.
Yep, definitely.
> Brothers. The same powers. Different lives. The stories
>thay could have had....SQUANDERED! Whatta waste. (An easy redemption
>would have been a waste too, but at least it could be exploited)
Indeed. There are lots of stories in myth and literature that make
great use of the dynamic between brothers.
Rob Hansen
On 8 May 97 13:03:37 -0600, mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Ergonometer Elmo)
wrote:
>r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk (Rob Hansen) writes:
>> mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Muddled Elmo) wrote:
>>>Y'know, maybe it's me, but, gee, wouldn't a heroic reformation by
>>>Douglas due to his brother's example have been more entertaining
>>>and more inspirational?
>>
>> Oh, the hackneyed old redemption bit. The number of Hollywood movies
>> that have been ruined by having one of these tacked on to the end.....
>
>As opposed to the hackneyed old dead-brother bit?
>
>If I may draw an analogy: The reboot reminds me of slash and burn
>agriculture. They come upon a patch of jungle, burn it down, grow
>a couple of issues' worth of crops on it, and then move on to the
>next patch, leaving behind only blasted soil unfit for any future
>cultivation.
Well, I've used the term 'scorched earth' before in reference to the
way Ron Marz and have applied this same principle to things like
Thanagar and the Green Lantern Corps, and I dislike it as much as you
do. However, there's a difference between this and an insistance on
redemption. In the specific case of Hollywood, their insistance on
happy endings has resulted in these being tacked on to stories that
never had them, as seen in recent film adaptations of things such as
'The Scarlet Letter'. This really gets my back up. In the case of the
LSH, while they are obviously going to triumph in the majority of
cases, they will be more heroic, and their stories more interesting,
if this isn't always a foregone conclusion.
Mango-Wan
On 9 May 1997, JD wrote:
> In article <1997May...@riph7.rice.edu>, mor...@riph5.rice.edu (Ergonometer Elmo) writes:
> > r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk (Rob Hansen) writes:
> > If I may draw an analogy: The reboot reminds me of slash and burn
> > agriculture. They come upon a patch of jungle, burn it down, grow
> > a couple of issues' worth of crops on it, and then move on to the
> > next patch, leaving behind only blasted soil unfit for any future
> > cultivation.
> > They are supposed to be building a Universe.
> Too true. My question is, "What happens when we run out of old material to
> steal story ideas from, where do we go then?"
Let's look at that question again, shall we?
"What happens when we run out of old material to steal story ideas
from..." Stop it there for a sec... "steal story ideas"
OK, as I see it you're saying that they're stealing from Pre-Boot... I can
see where that view comes from... so I'm assuming that you're against the
reboot using old ideas.
At the same time you're complaining that they'll quickly reach a point
where they'll have to start coming up with new ideas...
---
I'm confused.
---
- Dug.
---
The E-Mail of the species is more deadly than the mail
---
Foutz
Sean MacDonald wrote:
> Maybe I can explain. There is a difference between borrowing and
> stealing. If I steal your car, you might be upset. If I borrow
> your car, you might not be nearly so upset. If I borrow your
> car and drive it off a ravine, you might also be upset. This latter
> situation (rather than actual stealing) is how I view the reboot
> to be, as opposed to merely borrowing and leaving things the way
> they're supposed to be...like Colossal Boy being alive, Brainiac 5
> being smart and useful, Princess Projectra being a human, and
> Douglas Nolan being a survivor.
So let me get this straight. You do not like the reboot because it
deviates from the original continuum, and since it cannot be a reboot
unless it deviates from original continuum (or what would be the point)
then you simply dislike the reboot. In that case WHY ARE YOU READING
THE BOOK? Whether the reboot was necessary or not is a moot point now,
it has been three years and the Legion books are the only DC books other
than Preacher that are rising in price, so the reboot has been a success
and DC is not going back on it. If you and anyone else despise the new
version so much, then I suggest that you simply stop reading it, it will
save you the agrivation of seeing the changes. If this sounds like a
call for some ROTs to "crawl into their long boxes" well, it is. As I
said before, DC is not going back on the reboot, and the reboot is going
be different from the pre-boot, if it is the Levitz era or whatever era
you liked that you want to see, you will only find that in your long
boxes. If you dislike the deaths of Douglas Nolan and Colossal Boy
because you felt they were worthless or something, then fine, the
creators can do something about it, but if you dislike them simply
because they are different from the pre-boot, well all that does is make
this newsgroup more negative than it needs to be, and suggest to KC that
he should fire two writers who were listed as two of the top ten writers
in comics in Wizard for their were on this book.
Comma Kid aka Lauren <pfoutz2vt.edu>
Sean MacDonald
Maybe I can explain. There is a difference between borrowing and
stealing. If I steal your car, you might be upset. If I borrow
your car, you might not be nearly so upset. If I borrow your
car and drive it off a ravine, you might also be upset. This latter
situation (rather than actual stealing) is how I view the reboot
to be, as opposed to merely borrowing and leaving things the way
they're supposed to be...like Colossal Boy being alive, Brainiac 5
being smart and useful, Princess Projectra being a human, and
Douglas Nolan being a survivor.
Some might argue that the abstract art that is formed from
the wreckage of your car which has been driven off a cliff is
an improvement to your vehicle. Some might argue that it at
least avoids stagnation in your vehicle. I doubt the vehicle's
owner would agree that this is an improvement.
Oh, some might whine, the car's engine was on the verge of
collapse; at least the wreckage is something new and innovative,
in the spirit of the original slabs of metal from which the
car was originally fashioned; if you like what the car
represents, you should enjoy the wreckage equally.
BAH!
--
-SM
"It seemed a dreadful injustice that these wise races should
perish at the hands of creatures who were still little more
than animals. It was as if vultures feasted on and squabbled
over the paralyzed body of the youthful poet who could only
stare at them with puzzled eyes as they slowly robbed him of
an exquisite existence they would never appreciate, never know
they were taking. 'If they valued what they stole, if they knew
what they were destroying...then I would be consoled.'" -Michael Moorcock
Hernan Espinoza
Sean MacDonald <mcdo...@vorteb.math.uab.edu> writes:
Oooooo....an analogy arguement. whee.
[For the humor impared, everything from here on down is in a spirit'o'fun]
Re: The reboot as a borrowed car driven into a ravine...
> Some might argue that the abstract art that is formed from
>the wreckage of your car which has been driven off a cliff is
>an improvement to your vehicle. Some might argue that it at
>least avoids stagnation in your vehicle. I doubt the vehicle's
>owner would agree that this is an improvement.
>Oh, some might whine, the car's engine was on the verge of
>collapse; at least the wreckage is something new and innovative,
>in the spirit of the original slabs of metal from which the
>car was originally fashioned; if you like what the car
>represents, you should enjoy the wreckage equally.
>BAH!
Indeed...since in this case, the car has been pulled from the ravine
and has been refitted as a dramatically superior performance vehicle.
Sure the old clunker was charming in a Chevy Nova kind of way...
There...
that ought to stir things up.... >-)
julio
In article <337780...@vt.edu>, pfo...@vt.edu wrote:
> Sean MacDonald wrote:
>
> > Maybe I can explain. There is a difference between borrowing and
> > stealing. If I steal your car, you might be upset. If I borrow
> > your car, you might not be nearly so upset. If I borrow your
> > car and drive it off a ravine, you might also be upset. This latter
> > situation (rather than actual stealing) is how I view the reboot
> > to be, as opposed to merely borrowing and leaving things the way
> > they're supposed to be...like Colossal Boy being alive, Brainiac 5
> > being smart and useful, Princess Projectra being a human, and
> > Douglas Nolan being a survivor.
>
> So let me get this straight. You do not like the reboot because it
> deviates from the original continuum, and since it cannot be a reboot
> unless it deviates from original continuum (or what would be the point)
> then you simply dislike the reboot.
I can't speak for Sean, but it seems to me that he's saying he dislikes
the reboot because it deviates from the original in a *bad* way (or lots
of bad ways), just as driving a car off a ravine is deviating from the
road in a bad way :-)
I personally enjoyed his analogy: I thought it was effective and to the
point. I have no emotional attachments to the preboot myself, but I can
see where he and others (like Elmo, who was just now talking about the
post-boot "scorched earth" policy) are coming from.
The ROTs have a right to continue to voice their disappointment with the
reboot, at least as long as they are still buying the book. As for why
they continue to buy the book, that's of course a good question. My guess
is that they feel it still has the potential to be better than it
currently is, and they find it hard to give up on it completely. Again I
can sympathize with this. I certainly feel the book (both books) has not
lived up to its potential over the past year or so.
Julio
They Call Me DOCTOR Elmo
espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) writes:
> Sean MacDonald <mcdo...@vorteb.math.uab.edu> writes:
>>(2) Tinya Wazzo be Phantom Girl, not a girl phantom
>
> Gee, I kinda like this one. There's a lot of story potential here...
> IMO, more than was possible with the former.
So, let's see, before she died, we had the conflict with her mother,
politic maneuverings in the UP Council, some class-war elements in her
relationship with Ultra Boy, we had a growing and changing relationship
with Ultra Boy, and so on.
After she died we had "Phantom Girl is a ghost only Jo can see."
Oh, *yeah*, there's more potential now.
> Then again, it has been my
> unfortunate experience with death that it cares little for potential.
If I wanted to read fiction that reflected life, I sure as hell wouldn't
be reading superhero SF comics taking place in the future, y'know?
Death in real life may usually be arbitrary and meaningless, that's just
all the more reason for it to be significant and meaningful in fiction.
--
"That would make Michael Crichton the pawn of Gorilla city. Hmmm. Pop culture
written at the direction of intelligent animals.... Sounds like something
Crichton would've come up with on his own...or something the gorillas _want_
us to think he'd come up with on his own...which is, of course, how he'd write
the book/screenplay anyway.... Help, I'm caught in an infinite sarcasm loop!"
--Randy Patton
elmo mor...@physics.rice.edu
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Sean MacDonald
Foutz <pfo...@vt.edu> wrote:
>
>So let me get this straight. You do not like the reboot because it
>deviates from the original continuum, and since it cannot be a reboot
>unless it deviates from original continuum (or what would be the point)
>then you simply dislike the reboot. In that case WHY ARE YOU READING
>THE BOOK?
Looks like its time to dust off the old zombie threads and start
them up again. Okay, here goes...
There are ways in which the reboot could have been handled, while
still having many reboot qualities and yet *not* being offensive to
us ROTs. Would it have been so utterly unthinkable to have
(1) Brainiac 5 be competent, rather than (unfunny) comic relief
(2) Tinya Wazzo be Phantom Girl, not a girl phantom
(3) Gim Allon be more than a colossal corpse
(4) Projectra be human not a snake.
These are all changes whose purpose (if any purpose there be) have
yet to be revealed, making the purpose seem to be nothing
more than an attempt to offend us ROTs; thus, I am offended.
Why am I reading the book? Everytime I am asked this question, the
answer remains: Much like when seeing an automobile accident, I can not
turn my attention away, no matter how much I want to.
Also, it is true that comic book readers desire new stories. Telling
people to go away and only reread their old comics is rarely
productive, though it is the most common statement made
by Haters Of Glorious-old-stories. Yet, these HOGs continue to demand that
those of us who want *new* stories (hello, there's a difference between
new and old) reread old stories. There's only so many times
a person can reread cherished stories, you know. I do reread
the old on a constant basis. It's not enough, nor should it
have to be.
For example, suppose I were to campaign for an end to the reboot.
I could then tell you that you would have plenty of old reboot
comics that you could reread. Would you feel comforted by this
idea?
Whether the reboot was necessary or not is a moot point now,
>it has been three years and the Legion books are the only DC books other
>than Preacher that are rising in price, so the reboot has been a success
>and DC is not going back on it.
Financial success is not artistic success. I only appreciate
artistic success. The constant complaints of HOGs that the reboot
makes more money than v4 did will never be a valid argument in
favor of the artistic quality of the reboot; to think otherwise
is a fallacy ad populi.
If you and anyone else despise the new
>version so much, then I suggest that you simply stop reading it, it will
>save you the agrivation of seeing the changes. If this sounds like a
>call for some ROTs to "crawl into their long boxes" well, it is.
Ah, here we go. This old complaint. Why don't you go back and
reread reboot issues? Huh, why? Let's kill the reboot and you can
reread reboot back issues, that's fair, right?
And, of course, far be it from me to suggest that your attitude
is hypocritical here. A supporter of the reboot should hardly
be asking people to stop buying the book, when the reboot can
only continue if sales permit. Of course, this is slightly
politer than saying "Buy the book but SHUT UP!" which I think
may be your actual desire.
As I
>said before, DC is not going back on the reboot,
At least not for the next couple of decades, anyway...But all things
pass, and I imagine I will outlast the reboot, especially the way
comics are constantly in flux these days.
and the reboot is going
>be different from the pre-boot, if it is the Levitz era or whatever era
>you liked that you want to see, you will only find that in your long
>boxes.
Duh.
If you dislike the deaths of Douglas Nolan and Colossal Boy
>because you felt they were worthless or something, then fine,
Oh, I dislike them for these reasons, too, don't get me wrong.
I have several *other* complaints about the reboot based on
artistic reasons, but that's not the point here, is it?
the
>creators can do something about it, but if you dislike them simply
>because they are different from the pre-boot,
Then the creators could learn not to make egregiously offensive
differences to the reboot, learning to add (XS, Kinetix) rather
than subtract (Brainy's usefulness, Projectra's humanity,
Gim's life). For example, if they didn't like Gim, they could've
had him retire rather than die; if they wanted a snake, they could've
made a new snake character...These are changes up with which I will
not put.
well all that does is make
>this newsgroup more negative than it needs to be,
BAH! This newsgroup is more positive than it needs to be. ;(
(And this is the "SHUT UP!" that I suspected lurked hidden in
your comments.)
and suggest to KC that
>he should fire two writers
This is a stretch. I'm suggesting that the writers handle things
differently, not that they be fired.
who were listed as two of the top ten writers
>in comics in Wizard for their were on this book.
Fallacy ad populi, even if you want to get facts *snicker* from
Wizard.
Hernan Espinoza
Sean MacDonald <mcdo...@vorteb.math.uab.edu> writes:
>There are ways in which the reboot could have been handled, while
>still having many reboot qualities and yet *not* being offensive to
>us ROTs. Would it have been so utterly unthinkable to have
>(1) Brainiac 5 be competent, rather than (unfunny) comic relief
Agreed.
>(2) Tinya Wazzo be Phantom Girl, not a girl phantom
Gee, I kinda like this one. There's a lot of story potential here...
IMO, more than was possible with the former.
>(3) Gim Allon be more than a colossal corpse
Well... I think that he is/was more than that...but, as much as
I liked the way the death was handled, it did strike me as somewhat wasteful
of potential story material...premature. Then again, it has been my
unfortunate experience with death that it cares little for potential.
>(4) Projectra be human not a snake.
Inconceivable! 8-)
>These are all changes whose purpose (if any purpose there be) have
>yet to be revealed, making the purpose seem to be nothing
>more than an attempt to offend us ROTs; thus, I am offended.
Well...no purpose you find acceptable. Still, I guess I have not
given proper consideration to the theory that the creators' raison d'etre
was to lash out at you guys................What COULD you have done to them
to get them so mad? Their revenge is diabolical...
<snip> Why not to tell ROT's to read old LSH...go get'im, Sean. [really]
>Financial success is not artistic success. I only appreciate
>artistic success.
<blink> Heeehee. So do I, that's why I like the reboot
better in some ways (and less in others)....<snerk>
> The constant complaints of HOGs that the reboot
I musta missed something...Vas ist ein HOG? Hokey Old Guy?
Hysterical Overweight Gal? Humongous Ozone Gurus? Hernan Over
Glass? 8-)
>BAH! This newsgroup is more positive than it needs to be. ;(
Yeah! Grrrrrrrrrr....
-Hernan, also likes poking bears with sticks.
Jason Fliegel
In article <espinoza....@cgl.ucsf.edu>,
Hernan Espinoza <espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu> wrote:
>Sean MacDonald <mcdo...@vorteb.math.uab.edu> writes:
>
>>(2) Tinya Wazzo be Phantom Girl, not a girl phantom
>
>IMO, more than was possible with the former.
>
Then the creators ought to tell us a story with it. Instead, we get a
quick one-off with Deadman that explores none of the potential that's
present, and then it's off to meet Impulse! Now let's fight Dr. Psycho!
How about a trip through time? An X-Men parody?
The creators remind me of nothing so much as a bunch of hyperactive five
year olds. They throw out lots of ideas which they think are really neat,
then move on to the next bunch of ideas. There doesn't seem to be any
sense of an overarching tale, nor any sense that the creators are
following up on anything they throw out.
Let's contrast Paul Levitz's run on the Legion (his second one, 'natch).
In eight years (give or take), Levitz killed three Legionnaires. The
first was Karate Kid, and that led to a year long storyline -- Who Is
Sensor Girl -- plus it defined Timber Wolf's character for the rest of
Levitz's run. The second was Superboy, and again, we got a year long
storyline (the Conspiracy). Magnetic Kid was the third, and, of course,
Levitz left the book before he had a chance to follow that up. In
contrast, I can't remember a single mention of Gim since he died by anyone
other than Vi.
It's the little things, too. When the Legion would defeat Villain X in
issue #314, in issue #315, we'd see four or five Legionnaires taking
Villain X to Takron-Galtos. It'd just be a page, but it showed us that
things didn't end when the villain was defeated, plus it showed us where
Legionaires A, B, C, and D were that month. I don't see any of these
sorts of issue-to-issue details in the current books.
The bottom line, I guess, is that the books, since about issue #80, have
seemed ill-thought. Creative decisions are made without any regard for
their consequences (at least, that's how it appears from my perspective).
Things happen in one issue, and are forgotten by the next, and the end
result is, rather than a cohesive universe, we have a bunch offamiliar
characters bouncing form one unrelated situation to another.
--
Jason Fliegel
j-fl...@uchicago.edu
1L, University of Chicago Law School
inhetet
>These are changes up with which I will
> not put.
Well, agree or disagree...you have to admire a man who dangles no
participles.
Inhetet
"Honestly! Who throws a shoe? That really hurt!"---Austin Powers
Yeechang Lee
Jason Fliegel <jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> The creators remind me of nothing so much as a bunch of hyperactive
> five year olds. They throw out lots of ideas which they think are
> really neat, then move on to the next bunch of ideas.
Agreed.
> It's the little things, too. When the Legion would defeat Villain X
> in issue #314, in issue #315, we'd see four or five Legionnaires
> taking Villain X to Takron-Galtos. It'd just be a page, but it
> showed us that things didn't end when the villain was defeated, plus
> it showed us where Legionaires A, B, C, and D were that month. I
> don't see any of these sorts of issue-to-issue details in the
> current books.
Again agreed. We *still* have whole groups of Legionnaires missing
for issues at a time. And the creators are talking about yet more new
members without letting us see who some of the existing members are
really like--Magno as the most prominent example.
> Things happen in one issue, and are forgotten by the next, and the
> end result is, rather than a cohesive universe, we have a bunch
> offamiliar characters bouncing form one unrelated situation to
> another.
Worse, changes happen for *no apparent reason*. I'm not particularly
"anti-snake" regarding Jeckie, but they still haven't shown a reason
why she became a snake other than "change for change's sake." Such
'reasoning' seems to be behind a lot of what we've been seeing in the
reboot lately.
--
<URL:http://www.columbia.edu/~ylee/>
They Call Me DOCTOR Elmo
jbfl...@midway.uchicago.edu (Jason Fliegel) writes:
> It'd just be a page, but it showed us that
> things didn't end when the villain was defeated, plus it showed us where
> Legionaires A, B, C, and D were that month. I don't see any of these
> sorts of issue-to-issue details in the current books.
Sure we do. We get a page of Vi talking to the Eye every issue without
fail. And we know where all the other Legionnaires are that month--they're
in the Monthly Meeting.
--
"REAL SCIENCE COMICS: In a world full of superpowered mutants who can do such
superhuman feats as dying of malnutrition from not having critical enzymes or
getting sunburn from having mutated melanin, this man is the most powerful
mutant of them all. His name is Magneto. He can synthesize vitamin C."
--Paul A. Estin et al.
elmo mor...@physics.rice.edu
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
They Call Me DOCTOR Elmo
espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) writes:
> mor...@riph5.rice.edu (They Call Me DOCTOR Elmo) writes:
>>So, let's see, before she died, we had the conflict with her mother,
>>politic maneuverings in the UP Council, some class-war elements in her
>>relationship with Ultra Boy, we had a growing and changing relationship
>>with Ultra Boy, and so on.
>
>>After she died we had "Phantom Girl is a ghost only Jo can see."
>
> new angle of a romance between the living and the dead.
Real pity then that they haven't taken advantage of any of that potential.
Oh, yeah, I forgot. Tinya's been exiled to the 20th century away from
all the interesting background that completes these characters and makes
them compelling.
Sigh. 947 ways to time travel in the DC Universe and the Legionnaires
can't find any of them.
--
"There is a God inside my PC. An Old-Testament God with lots of arbitrary
rules and utterly no mercy." -- Joseph Campbell
elmo mor...@physics.rice.edu
http://www.bonner.rice.edu/morrow
Hernan Espinoza
mor...@riph5.rice.edu (They Call Me DOCTOR Elmo) writes:
>espi...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Hernan Espinoza) writes:
>> Sean MacDonald <mcdo...@vorteb.math.uab.edu> writes:
>>>(2) Tinya Wazzo be Phantom Girl, not a girl phantom
>>
>> Gee, I kinda like this one. There's a lot of story potential here...
>> IMO, more than was possible with the former.
>So, let's see, before she died, we had the conflict with her mother,
>politic maneuverings in the UP Council, some class-war elements in her
>relationship with Ultra Boy, we had a growing and changing relationship
>with Ultra Boy, and so on.
>After she died we had "Phantom Girl is a ghost only Jo can see."
>Oh, *yeah*, there's more potential now.
What a lack of imagination, no wonder you're in physics (jokejokejoke)
Everything you listed is still possible grist for the story mill *plus* the
new angle of a romance between the living and the dead. What are people
going to think about that? What are religious authorities going to think
about that? Will people who want to get a glimpse of "The Great Beyond"
flock to a cult of Jo and Tinya? Will people who believe it's evil
try to stop them? Will "forces from beyond" try to stop it? Encourage it?
Is Jo's anchor on tinya's soul causing problems in the afterlife? Will
the dead attempt to use this as a conduit back to life? Jo can't touch her,
how long will he put up with that? What if he wants to move on to
a normal relationship? What then for Tinya? He might be the only thing
holding her here, what if she chooses to fight for her man (or her existence)?
so...*YEAH* there's more potential now...a lot more.
That's why I used the word "potential". There's a lot more grist in the
story mill now for those with the imagination to see it *BUT* as Jason
correctly pointed out all the potential in the world is meaningless if it
isn't used. So you are right, we haven't seen much story since Tinya
died, but that is the fault of the writers' lack of ability/willingness to
follow through, not a lack of potential material with which to work.
-Hernan
Rob Hansen
On Wed, 14 May 1997 00:12:19 -0500, inhetet <inh...@dallas.net>
wrote:
>>These are changes up with which I will
>> not put.
>
> Well, agree or disagree...you have to admire a man who dangles no
>participles.
And who chooses Churchill to paraphrase.
Rob Hansen
>The creators remind me of nothing so much as a bunch of hyperactive five
>year olds. They throw out lots of ideas which they think are really neat,
>then move on to the next bunch of ideas. There doesn't seem to be any
>sense of an overarching tale, nor any sense that the creators are
>following up on anything they throw out.
When Tom Peyer was asked, in the interview currently available in DC's
online fanzine, what readers could look forward to leading up to issue
#100 of Legion of Super Heroes, he replied:
"The usual story twists and character interaction, and probably more
forward motion in the story than they've been able to detect recently.
A lot of story points that may have looked like they were going
nowhere will, in fact, go somewhere."
Some of us, myself included, have speculated that all the Team 20
stuff is in fact building towards something. It looks like we might
find out what this is in a few months time.
Yeechang Lee
Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Some of us, myself included, have speculated that all the Team 20
> stuff is in fact building towards something. It looks like we might
> find out what this is in a few months time.
We'd bettter--it's been 10 months already!
--
<URL:http://www.columbia.edu/~ylee/>
inhetet
> And who chooses Churchill to paraphrase.
>
> Rob Hansen
Very true, very true...
Inhetet