Legion of the Damned
James GIlmer
of V4 (Giffen reboot) I'm not very familiar with them. I've been waiting for
a jump on point to try the books but for some reason they never attracted
me...until now.
I liked Legion of the Damned, I liked it alot. I thought Coipel did a
fine job on the art compared to what I was expecting from all the
shock/horror on the ng about his work. Does this remind me of V4 reboot?
Yeah, there are definite simularities. Do I think that a book needs to be
deconstructed like this to work? No, not always. New direction, or new look,
doesn't need to mean kill characters, turn it dark and and in general tick
the older readers off. So I understand that long time readers may be ticked
at the changes, and I'll point out that without prior knowledge of the books
I can't comment on things like character changes and personalities, etc.
With that said I'll move on. Now, since I don't have a connection to the
characters the *death* of Garth & Lyle doesn't really hit me that hard, no
emotional connection to the characters. But I still got the impression that
Legion is in deep. Most of their members on the run, some enslaved by the
enemy, some missing, etc. Any personality shifts could be chalked up to the
fact of how desperate the situation is added to the new creative team, but
again I'm not sure how the characters are supposed to act so...
Of course we've seen stories like this before and enemies like the
Blight before and with like Abnett and Lanning will give us something more
than just a cipher alien race (one can hope). So I'm not sure if it works as
a *Legion story*, but as a dystopian post-apoclypse adventure story it
clicked for me.
I think the criticism against Copiel is a little harsh. I can see why
some might not like it, but I really enjoyed his art. I don't have as large
as problems with the way he does faces (okay, the sketch lines *are*
excessive at times) but I've seen much, much worse(this week's Phoenix
series from marvel, the Molly's Story mini from Vertigo, anything the Kubert
brothers,who I like but their characters faces look 2-D, touch) I just
didn't find the art as horrible as I thought I would from previews on the
net and discussion on the ng. I must say I don't understand the *not
dramatic enough action scences* complaint, I thought Copiel captured the
action just fine. Much better than other artists like Howard Porter whose
action scences are much too stiff, I found a clear dynamic quality to
Coipel's stuff.
So Abnett and Lanning succeded in this; I picked up Legion of the Damned
and will pick up the rest of the arc to see how it develops. If I continue
to enjoy it I'll give my money to Legion Lost. That's just my opinion
though, take it with a grain of salt!- Jim
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I've been waiting for
> a jump on point to try the books but for some reason they never attracted
> me...until now.
What about this attracted you? Just that it seemed like a jumping-on point?
> With that said I'll move on. Now, since I don't have a connection to the
> characters the *death* of Garth & Lyle doesn't really hit me that hard, no
> emotional connection to the characters.
Even if you do have a connection to the character, it's not very hard
hitting. IMO.
> I'm not sure if it works as
> a *Legion story*, but as a dystopian post-apoclypse adventure story it
> clicked for me.
Maybe that's what the Legion needs. They've always been special, which can
be off-putting -- maybe they need to be like other things for a while.
Johanna
Michael Long
Johanna Draper Carlson wrote in message
<7vb1uv$3oi$1...@nntp3.atl.mindspring.net>...
>In article <3818...@news.ismi.net> , "James GIlmer" <gr...@ismi.net>
wrote:
>
>> I've been waiting for
>> a jump on point to try the books but for some reason they never attracted
>> me...until now.
>
>What about this attracted you? Just that it seemed like a jumping-on point?
>
>> With that said I'll move on. Now, since I don't have a connection to
the
>> characters the *death* of Garth & Lyle doesn't really hit me that hard,
no
>> emotional connection to the characters.
>
>Even if you do have a connection to the character, it's not very hard
>hitting. IMO.
I think that is the one thing that bothered me most-nothing in the
story had an emotional attachment for me. I have been reading the Legion
since 1965 and in every incarnation I've held an emotional attachment oine
way or another.Even with the latest groupo-it took some time to warm up to
it,but at least I started with an emotional distaste for it.The Blight
didn't trigger anything-it was like reading an entirely different book-one
that had no re-
semblance to the LSH.But I'll give it a shot-I haven't any other choice
anyway.I'll stay on 'til it's buried or reborn.
MBLong
ANDY LANGO
cents in.
Andy lanning here. One of those monsters who's descerating your lovley Legion
titles.
One of the reasons I've steered clear of posting before was the level of
nastiness, side swiping and bitching that goes on here. I don't want to eneter
an area of discussion that isn't much above, 'I hate it. It sucks. Why. Coz
it's not what I want!' or 'I hate Olivier's art. It sucks. Why. Coz it's not
----(insert fav choice from the last 40 years).'
I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit there
is in this type of moan session. And I can't see how me responding to any of it
would move things along in any way at all.
I'm all up for constructive crits. Reasoned insights. Passionate debate and
story hints!
I can't get involved in slagging matches though, and I don't want to. If you
want me to defend what we're up to I will but when the level of comment is as
above I can't coz it'll fast descend into a pissing contest on who you hate and
why.
Anyhoo, rant aside, here's a nugget I posted over on the DCU Legion message
boards I thought some of you might be interested in...
"For those of you who were perturbed by the suddenness with which we went into
the story- this was a deliberate story device on our part (my God it sounds
like we know what we're doing!). By plopping you into the tale some weeks after
the last issue we hoped to create a sense of mystery as to what is happening
and what has happened, thus building a rising forboding and anxiety in you, the
readers, as to what we're up to and the fate of the characters you care about.
That's why certain things
have occured 'off screen'. It's not callousness on our part and you'll
have to trust me when I say that no one will be left unaccounted for in
the end- exactly what's happened to them is another thing, you'll just
have to wait and find out..."
And, finally, for those of you who think olivier's artwork sucks....tough poop!
He's the artist. he's got the gig. You don't like it, fine, that's your opinion
just stop with the 'He's a BAD artist. He can't draw.' crap. He's a bloody GOOD
artist who could draw the socks of most of the best out there. Just coz you
don't like his stuff won't change that. And that's MHO, worth as much or less
as your own!
Cheers
Andy
James GIlmer
point?
>>
Partly, I had seen Legion on the shelves for quite some time and had
flipped through different issues at one time or the other. I had read about
a dozen V4 issues (non-sequential) and from that and what I read from the
net the concept of the Legion sounded interesting. However, the issues I
looked at in the shop didn't look interesting to me artwise or storywise.
The set-up of the Blight (and no, I don't think the Blight are all *that*
original a concept) storyline gave me a place to start with. I also caught
the preview of the Legion art on the net and was suprised to find it not as
horrible as some on the NG were forecasting. This is of course subjective, I
happen to like the sketchy style of art Coipel has. I found it dynamic and
fluid as opposed to previous work I've seen on Legion, this is not to say
anything bad about previous artist of Legion who I am sure were fine in
their own rights, but what I saw before never gave me that *push* to pick up
the book.
I'd also like to pick up some Legion archives stories to see what kind
of legacy the books have but at fifty bucks a pop I think I must pass. I
understand the complaints about Coipel and Abnett & Lanning's work but there
is just so much bile being directed at the new team it's too bad. As I've
said my opinions are as subjective as everyone else's but I intend to see
the storyline through before passing final judgement.
Bill Roper
ANDY LANGO <andy...@aol.com> wrote:
>One of the reasons I've steered clear of posting before was the level of
>nastiness, side swiping and bitching that goes on here. I don't want to eneter
>an area of discussion that isn't much above, 'I hate it. It sucks. Why. Coz
>it's not what I want!' or 'I hate Olivier's art. It sucks. Why. Coz it's not
>----(insert fav choice from the last 40 years).'
>I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit there
>is in this type of moan session. And I can't see how me responding to any of it
>would move things along in any way at all.
>I'm all up for constructive crits. Reasoned insights. Passionate debate and
>story hints!
Let me try to phrase this in as constructive a way as possible.
The artwork is getting in the way of your ability to tell the story. It
makes it hard to follow what's going on. It is not simply that I find it
to be ugly, it's that I can't tell who is who or what it is that they're
supposed to be doing.
I am *literally* better off just reading the captions and the word
balloons because the artwork is detracting that much from the story
while adding nearly *zero* information. (Not quite zero, but pretty
close.)
I think that you guys did a bang up job on Resurrection Man which is
one of the reasons that I find this so frustrating. I believe that
you're capable of writing a good Legion story. I think that the
particular direction that you've chosen -- at least as much as you've
revealed in the first issue -- is a mistake in that it appears to be
recapitulating major plot elements that nearly got the Legion books
cancelled several years ago.
I combine this with artwork that I believe that the average fan is
going to find completely incomprehensible and I find it difficult to
figure out who is going to buy the book. The storyline seems ideally
designed as a *jumping-off* point for the current readers. I think
that the artwork is going to prevent new readers from jumping on,
regardless of the merits of the underlying story.
It smells to me like a recipe that is going to result in cancellation.
I understand that this isn't the sort of reaction that you're going to
enjoy reading. But it *is* an honest reaction and, to that extent, the
only one that's worth telling you about.
Honest people don't set out to produce bad work. But they do sometimes
have bad judgment. I think that's the case here.
>And, finally, for those of you who think olivier's artwork sucks....tough poop!
>He's the artist. he's got the gig. You don't like it, fine, that's your opinion
>just stop with the 'He's a BAD artist. He can't draw.' crap. He's a bloody GOOD
>artist who could draw the socks of most of the best out there. Just coz you
>don't like his stuff won't change that. And that's MHO, worth as much or less
>as your own!
The problem I have is that I see no evidence that Coipel *is* a good artist.
I see that he has problems with anatomy. I see that he has problems making
the story flow so that I can understand what's going on.
Seriously, what do *you* see in Coipel's work that makes you think that he's
capable of drawing the socks off most of the best out there?
(I have no doubt that McAvennie likes his work. But the last three artists
on the book -- Armstrong, Kolins, and now Coipel -- have all looked pretty
bad to me. Armstrong may or may not have been his decision, but the last
two must have been. Thus, I start to doubt his ability in that area.)
--
Bill Roper, ro...@xnet.com
T. Troy McNemar
>I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit there
>is in this type of moan session.
It's not for you. It's for other fans. If you want to try to elevate the
level of discussion, feel free to join in. But ranting back at us is even
more counterproductive than the moan session that you joined.
>And I can't see how me responding to any of it
>would move things along in any way at all.
Up to you. I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile. Or you can
do your level best to alienate some of us further, it's up to you.
--
T. Troy McNemar Tr...@McNemar.com
"Uoy dluoc evah a maets niart fi d'uoy tsuj yal nwod ruoy skcart."
-Zatana Gabriel
Favorite Comic of the Week: QUANTUM & WOODY #18
Runner-up: BLACK PANTHER v2 #13
http://www.McNemar.com
Sk8Maven
> One of the reasons I've steered clear of posting before was the level
> want to enter an area of discussion that isn't much above, 'I hate it.
A statement like that is not open to discussion, because there's nothing
*to* discuss. It isn't what the poster wants, and therefore s/he will
have none of it, even if s/he can't articulate reasons *why* it isn't
what s/he wants.
> or 'I hate Olivier's art. It sucks. Why. Coz it's not ----(insert fav
> choice from the last 40 years).'
That isn't open to discussion either, for the same reasons as the first
statement.
> I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see
> what benefit there is in this type of moan session. And I can't see
> how me responding to any of it would move things along in any way at
> all.
And therefore you will just rag on those of us who don't like what you
and Dan and Olivier are doing?
> I'm all up for constructive crits. Reasoned insights. Passionate
> debate and story hints!
So you claim -- but *constructive* critism requires having some kind of
positive response to something about the story and/or the art. That ipso
facto loads the dice in favor of those who *like* what you lot are doing
and disenfranchises those of us who have major and serious objections.
Anyway, you and Dan were *both* warned -- repeatedly -- that this would
happen, that you would be severely criticized by those who were not that
unhappy with the way things *had* been going, and that you had better be
prepared to deal with it.
> Anyhoo, rant aside, here's a nugget I posted over on the DCU Legion
> message boards I thought some of you might be interested in...
> "For those of you who were perturbed by the suddenness with which we
> went into the story- this was a deliberate story device on our part
> (my God it sounds like we know what we're doing!).
It was a "deliberate story device" on the part of Giffen and the
Bierbaums too. Then as now, it confused and disoriented even longtime
fans, to say nothing of new ones. Then as now, it was so extreme a
change of direction and tone that some people did not like it and said
so -- vehemently. (A substantial nomber of them voted with their
pocketbooks -- something that the book(s) *could* afford, for a while,
then, but *cannot* afford now.)
> By plopping you into the tale some weeks after the last issue
> we hoped to create a sense of mystery as to what is happening
> and what has happened, thus building a rising forboding and anxiety
> in you, the readers, as to what we're up to and the fate of the
> characters you care about.
Mystery? What mystery? The Earth has been taken over by a malevolent
alien force, and most of "the characters we care about" are its
storm-trooper slaves. We've been there, seen that, more than once over
the years. The "rising foreboding and anxiety" some of us feel is that
things will *never* get better than this, because too much has been
wrecked too suddenly and too thoroughly -- and I don't just mean the
buildings and physical infrastructure.
> That's why certain things have occured 'off screen'. It's not
> callousness on our part and you'll have to trust me when I say that
> no one will be left unaccounted for in the end- exactly what's
> happened to them is another thing, you'll just have to wait and find
> out..."
*If* we give a damn, particularly after your snide parting shot:
> And, finally, for those of you who think olivier's artwork
> sucks....tough poop! He's the artist. he's got the gig. You don't like
> it, fine, that's your opinion just stop with the 'He's a BAD artist.
> He can't draw.' crap. He's a bloody GOOD artist who could draw the
> socks of most of the best out there. Just coz you don't like his
> stuff won't change that. And that's MHO, worth as much or less
> as your own!
I don't care if he's your best bowling buddy or your wife's favorite
bridge partner, Coipel has got far too much yet to learn *as* an artist
to be called a "good" artist. He needs to get *solidly* grounded in
basic human(oid) anatomy, in figure perspective and foreshortening, in
the construction of facial features and expressions, and various other
things that any comics artist worth his/her salt, or any other artist
who works predominantly with the human(oid) form, *must* know. And he
really should learn when enough is "too much" -- with particular
reference to those scratchy lines he's so overfond of. A little of that
adds texture and mood -- *too much* of it, and IMHO he uses *far* too
much, gets in the way of telling the story because it obscures the
action and annoys a significant number of readers.
You can dazzle some of the people, for a while, with style over
substance -- but if your style goes out of fashion, what have you got
left to fall back on? Good solid anatomy, perspective, and so on *never*
go out of style.
Lee Moder had "the gig". Where is he now? Jason Armstrong had "the gig".
Where is he now? Scott Kolins had "the gig". Where is he now? Having
"the gig" is no guarantee of keeping it. Especially if enough paying
customers object strongly enough -- particularly with their wallets --
to your having it.
Maven
Johanna Draper Carlson
> One of the reasons I've steered clear of posting before was the level of
> nastiness, side swiping and bitching that goes on here.
You seem to be lumping anyone who didn't like the book, no matter how
logical their examples or dislikes, into that group, which isn't much of a
help in preventing further name-calling. That is, if you stereotype us, how
are we to learn not to stereotype you?
> I can't see how me responding to any of it
> would move things along in any way at all.
You're right, you probably can't win. That's the issue pros have to deal
with when deciding to enter an online fan forum.
> I'm all up for constructive crits. Reasoned insights. Passionate debate and
> story hints!
In my opinion, the majority of the posts on the new issue have fallen into
the above categories.
> He's a bloody GOOD
> artist who could draw the socks of most of the best out there.
Could you elaborate a bit? Illuminate on what he does well? Teach us instead
of just telling us we're wrong?
Johanna
List Owner, Legion-List
Discussion of all eras and incarnations of the Legion of Super-Heroes comic
book and characters from DC Comics. Friendly and welcoming to all LSH fans.
Ben Weiss
> Andy lanning here. One of those monsters who's descerating your lovley Legion
> titles.
However this may sound coming from me...welcome to racdl. Somehow just the fact
that you're willing to communicate directly with fans makes me feel better.
I
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> I'm all up for constructive crits. Reasoned insights. Passionate debate and
> story hints!
Okay. My take:
I've already said that I'll read through LotD before making a final judgment, but
there were several things that put me off in this issue. The trouble is that
you're inheriting a lot of baggage. There's been a tendency toward "big change for
the sake of change" and trashing the preboot just to prove that "anything can
happen"--witness Wildfire, for example. McAvennie has put his stamp on lots of
gimmicks and half-baked ideas (the "permanently" split team, comatose Kinetix)
instead of improving story quality. So when you come in and imply that two core
Legionnaires have been killed (and Jo said Garth was "finished"), this feels like
more of the same type of stunt.
As for the story itself, I found Cham's decision to set the gun to lethal out of
character. Just a few pages before, you'd emphasized that being a Legionnaire
"still means something." Cham has presumably been dodging patrols all month, so
there's not really any reason for this encounter with Thom to be any different. It
seemed as though you were trying a circular technique: Have Cham snap to show how
bad the conditions were, and use the conditions to explain Cham's snapping. To me,
it was jarring and didn't add anything to the story.
A general point: In recent years, the writing has been characterized by good
dialogue, characterization that ranged from strong to caricatured depending on the
character, and abysmal plotting. Unlike Sterlo, you guys at least seem to plot for
the long term, although I can't judge the quality until I see the payoff. But in
the three issues you've done, I've found the characterization pretty bland. Peyer,
at his best, even in fight scenes would throw in little side-comments that made you
laugh in recognition because that's exactly what the character *would* do. (My
favorite example is Gates using "fellow workers" rhetoric on Secret Service agents
in 1958, but there are less extreme cases.) I miss that--Brainy is pretty much
himself, but most of the other Legionnaires we've seen have acted fairly
interchangeable. And the dialogue seems to have lost some of its zip, although I
think the problem there is that the Legionnaires have been talking fairly American
and you probably don't want to immediately switch them over to British.
Finally, a philosophical thing: I can see why from a sales standpoint you wanted to
start with a big action plot, but I am worried about all the character bits left
over from PMS being left to languish. In particular, I wish something could be
done about Jan's tenuous connection with reality and Tinya's third body before 18
months from now.
> By plopping you into the tale some weeks after
> the last issue we hoped to create a sense of mystery as to what is happening
> and what has happened, thus building a rising forboding and anxiety in you, the
> readers, as to what we're up to and the fate of the characters you care about.
The trouble is that that's been done to death by the previous writers without
sufficient payoff, Kinetix being the strongest example. I thought that a lot of
the references worked ("...as Sensor's team discovered..."), but that the
implication of Lyle's death crossed the line into needless shock value. I wish
you'd given us time to learn to trust you before pulling that.
> And, finally, for those of you who think olivier's artwork sucks....tough poop!
> He's the artist. he's got the gig. You don't like it, fine, that's your opinion
> just stop with the 'He's a BAD artist. He can't draw.' crap. He's a bloody GOOD
> artist who could draw the socks of most of the best out there.
You've seen more of his work than we have. But again, there's been a tendency to
hire novice artists who weren't ready for the Legion assignment (Armstrong and
Kolins). I agree with the sentiment that you should be able to tell who everybody
is. And Coipel's weaknesses at faces (take the hair and coloring off the four
Legionnaires in the last panel and they're basically interchangeable) and body
proportions (Garth seems to have regressed to age 12 and Cham in some panels looks
like a famine victim) come as a particular blow in that he's replacing Jeff Moy,
who gave every Legionnaire an individual facial structure. It's that baggage thing
again, and my ire, at least, is directed at McAvennie rather than at Coipel.
Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
Dale Hicks
> One of the reasons I've steered clear of posting before was the level of
> nastiness,
No one here's nasty (well, as long as Mike and tyg don't start rubbing
each other the wrong way). McCubbin asked reasonable questions.
Maven ranted, but we're all allowed one now and again. Although
Johanna has a Legion of detractors, she's always fairly nice in my
view. I don't know of any malcontents on this ng (other than tom's
recent manic depression).
> I don't want to eneter
> an area of discussion that isn't much above, 'I hate it. It sucks. Why. Coz
> it's not what I want!' or 'I hate Olivier's art. It sucks. Why. Coz it's not
> ----(insert fav choice from the last 40 years).'
While the first is an opinion that is inarguable (and should be), the
second example hasn't occured. People have posted reasonably why
they dislike the art.
> I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit there
> is in this type of moan session.
Misery loves company? If you're not reading the latest book, then
there's not much other discussion. I think once I get my Archives
I'll talk about those stories, they're new to me.
> And I can't see how me responding to any of it
> would move things along in any way at all.
It won't except for answering the q. on whether there's dirt on
the unblighted, or just shadows.
> "For those of you who were perturbed by the suddenness with which we went into
> the story- this was a deliberate story device on our part (my God it sounds
> like we know what we're doing!). By plopping you into the tale some weeks after
> the last issue we hoped to create a sense of mystery as to what is happening
> and what has happened, thus building a rising forboding and anxiety in you
Question: did y'all read the early V4? Or have you read it in
preparation for this assignment?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
John Northey
>OK. I've refrained from posting before but thought i'd better throw me two
>cents in.
I've been fairly quiet too (although being a reader only makes few
notice). To me the first issue was not enough to sway me strongly
either way. My first look at the art turned me off badly (the cover
which was displayed at ChiCon), then looking at the B&W preview during
a Toronto Con I was hopeful. Now, with the 'real thing' what do I
think? Looked better in b&w (however I love b&w comics so that might
just be me), the story showed hope at times and I'll wait until all 4
issues have come before forming a strong opinion. The offscene death
that occurred bugged me, but there is probably more to it which we'll
see in the next 3 issues.
>Andy lanning here. One of those monsters who's descerating your lovley Legion
>titles.
Heh. It does get ugly here. Never as ugly as what I used to see in
the old LSH-L mailing list though (they got really nasty in every way
imaginable). Just remember, you see the die hards here. Some take
the comic a bit too seriously (myself included at times). Right now a
lot of these fans feel a bit frustrated because what many think of as
'the real Legion' ended over 10 years ago. This new direction makes
many feel we're going in a similar direction as the start of v4 did.
Around here v4 is either loved or hated, and the new direction you've
started in will probably cause many to revisit that.
Like it or not, Legion comes with some of the most rabid fans. Few
can stick on usenet with us for long. Btw, this reaction, while bad,
is no where near as ugly as I thought it might be.
>I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit there
>is in this type of moan session. And I can't see how me responding to any of it
>would move things along in any way at all.
Actually, this is great for venting. People might get happier with
the next few issues, but the nit-picking will be there forever.
Respond if you want, but don't let the negative comments get to you.
>And, finally, for those of you who think olivier's artwork sucks....tough poop!
The big problem there is Moy was very loved by fans and it felt to
many here that he was fired just because of a need for a change. It
is actually amazing how Moy became ranked with the top LSH artists
ever (Swan, Grell, Giffen, Cockrum are normally mentioned as favorites
and that is a tough group to break into). Olivier might grow on us,
but right now we've seen 2 guys brought in and let go in under 2
years, both newcomers ala Olivier (well, he is new to this audience).
Give it time. Things will calm down (sorta).
John Northey.
Crazy Canadian and creator of the Fans of Teri Sue Wood site.
http://www.sentex.net/~jnorthey/TSW
My original art collection can be seen at
http://www.monsterfighters.com/don/Northey.html
Sidne G. Ward
>andy...@aol.com (ANDY LANGO) wrote:
>>OK. I've refrained from posting before but thought i'd better throw me two
>>cents in.
>Like it or not, Legion comes with some of the most rabid fans. Few
>can stick on usenet with us for long. Btw, this reaction, while bad,
>is no where near as ugly as I thought it might be.
Yeah. You should have seen the reaction when the previous creative team
announced they were sending half the team to the 20th century for an
unspecified period of time. Think about what a small impact that really
was on the overall longterm direction of the LSH. Yet the fans' reaction
was termed a "bloodbath".
You all are getting off comparatively easy.
>>I don't want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit there
>>is in this type of moan session. And I can't see how me responding to any of it
>>would move things along in any way at all.
>Actually, this is great for venting. People might get happier with
>the next few issues, but the nit-picking will be there forever.
>Respond if you want, but don't let the negative comments get to you.
Respond or don't. But don't just show up here and tell us our feelings
aren't valid. Try to figure out *why* we're responding the way we
are. Think about what you could say to alleviate our concerns. And
really listen. You might not like the way it's said but someone will
surely at least occasionally have a valid point that might make you
think about how to handle things.
Remember that many of us have been reading the Legion far longer than you
probably have. And, quite likely, many of us will still be reading the
Legion after you and Abnett and Coipel have moved on to other projects.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
David J. Snyder
John Northey <jnor...@SPAMISEVILsentex.net> wrote:
>>And, finally, for those of you who think olivier's artwork sucks....tough poop!
>
>The big problem there is Moy was very loved by fans and it felt to
>many here that he was fired just because of a need for a change. It
Nah. not really. Not that Moy wasn't adored, but Coipel's art is
just ugly. No matter what the situation people would be complaining about
how ugly his art is.
-Dave
Dwight Williams
> jnor...@SPAMISEVILsentex.net (John Northey) writes:
> >andy...@aol.com (ANDY LANGO) wrote:
> >>OK. I've refrained from posting before but thought i'd better throw me two
> >>cents in.
>
> >Like it or not, Legion comes with some of the most rabid fans. Few
> >can stick on usenet with us for long. Btw, this reaction, while bad,
> >is no where near as ugly as I thought it might be.
>
> Yeah. You should have seen the reaction when the previous creative team
> announced they were sending half the team to the 20th century for an
> unspecified period of time. Think about what a small impact that really
> was on the overall longterm direction of the LSH. Yet the fans' reaction
> was termed a "bloodbath".
> You all are getting off comparatively easy.
Are they? Really?
Well, one thing's for sure: you won't get apathy from *this* newsgroup
no matter what happens. That much to the good can be said for rac.dc.lsh
right off...
> Remember that many of us have been reading the Legion far longer than you
> probably have. And, quite likely, many of us will still be reading the
> Legion after you and Abnett and Coipel have moved on to other projects.
Personally, I'd be very surprised to find out that the new crew have NOT
been reading LSH in its' varied incarnations for as long as many of us,
if not longer. It tends to attact creative people who give more than the
average damn about it, after all...
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Maintainer/Founder - DEOList for _Chase_ Fandom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sidne G. Ward
>Sidne G. Ward wrote:
>> jnor...@SPAMISEVILsentex.net (John Northey) writes:
>>
>> Yeah. You should have seen the reaction when the previous creative team
>> announced they were sending half the team to the 20th century for an
>> unspecified period of time. Think about what a small impact that really
>> was on the overall longterm direction of the LSH. Yet the fans' reaction
>> was termed a "bloodbath".
>> You all are getting off comparatively easy.
>Are they? Really?
Well, no one's called this reaction a "bloodbath" yet. And I was at the
AOL LSH chat yesterday as well as the one where the 20th century storyline
was announced. There was a *lot* more negative reaction at the latter.
>Well, one thing's for sure: you won't get apathy from *this* newsgroup
>no matter what happens. That much to the good can be said for rac.dc.lsh
>right off...
That's true. People do really care about the books and the characters.
>> Remember that many of us have been reading the Legion far longer than you
>> probably have. And, quite likely, many of us will still be reading the
>> Legion after you and Abnett and Coipel have moved on to other projects.
>Personally, I'd be very surprised to find out that the new crew have NOT
>been reading LSH in its' varied incarnations for as long as many of us,
>if not longer. It tends to attact creative people who give more than the
>average damn about it, after all...
It's certainly *possible* they have been. That's why I used the term
"probably" to describe the situation.
I have no idea how long A&L have been reading the Legion and that's
something I actually really would like to know. If I knew that and which
were their favorite eras I could begin to judge what they might do with
the books. But right now I don't know if they've read more than the past
year or so of books (which I'm only assuming they'd do to get up to speed
on the characters and plots) or if they've hurried down to the newsstand
every new comics day since 1960 to pick up the latest Legion issue. I
don't even have any idea at all how old they are to know if it's even
possible they've been reading LSH longer than me.
So Andy, if you're sticking around here at all, I'd love to hear about
your favorite Legion storylines.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
ANDY LANGO
one could blow at any moment!
First up- I'm not coming on to diss any of your to disregard any of your
thoughts and comments. As I previously stated: the thing that gets my back up
is sweeping statments like, "the art sucks' ,'the art is ugly', 'he can't draw'
and the like.
Johanna, (hello again BTW it's nice to talk to you once more)- I'm sorry the
story and art weren't to your taste but you win some and lose some. You must
know that, as a writer you've got to stick to what you're trying to achieve and
plough ahead. If we took on every negative criticism or suggestion the story
would vasilate one way then the next and I'm sure nobody wants that. Liked or
not, we've got our stories to tell and we're going on, head down and elbows
out, until we get pulled from the job or run out of steam!
As far as Olivier's concerned, I'm still sticking to the 'art is subjective'
argument. Simple fact. It is.
I'm sorry your opinion that it's a craft and therefore has set rules and
regulations doesn't fly for me. Sure there are nominal technical parameters in
which an artist has to work (sequential panels, gutters, room for dialog etc)
but that's about it, the rest is up for grabs and all can go fly when a
stylistic approach is taken. Some have commented that Olivier's anatomy is
off- IYO that is. Look at any stylised artist out there (and in my book,
virtually ALL comic art is stylised it's the nature of the beast) and you'll
see anatomical rules flying out the window. Also, the point has been made that
the story was 'hard to follow' and characters were difficult to identify. I
agree to a point: the point being that this is Olivier's vision of the Legion,
they are his interpritations of the characters and, coming after some one with
such a clean, open style as Jeff, I can see how Olivier's grittier, more
textural approach could be a culture shock. But all the costumes were there,
properly realised and Tom colored everyone as per style sheet. And once again,
criticsim about his storytelling technique falls into the subjjective camp.
Personally, I think he's got a fluid, Anime style of story telling that is very
cinematic and European, it reminds me of Walt Simonson and Adam Warren. But
that's me, you may not 'get it' if not, no sweat but people shouldn't stand up
on a pedistal and claim in an all-knowing attitude that he's WRONG or
INCORRECT. coz it just ain't so.
I mentioned before that this is Olivier's first professional comic work and
someone swiped that why must he be inflicted on you Legion readers. Give us a
break, evryone has to start somewhere and everyone (unless they have an ego
like a living planet) continues to learn with every job they undertake. So,
this shot just ain't fair.
I know fan forums are a cruel and take no prisioners but I'm a big boy and can
take the punishment. And I truly want to hear what you've got to say and will
honestly take on board any coments I feel have merit But, and it's a BIG BUT,
don't expect me to sit back and take what ever abuse is slung around- I'll
reply in kind (I have as much right to 'vent' as ther next man)!
Sidne- I never intended my comments to invalidate any of your posts and, as
I've said, my ears are open, but don't expect me to role over and play dead- my
points are as valid as your own. But you make a good point about creators
moving on. You'll have to trust me when I say Dan and I are comitted to this
book for the long haul. We want to get people interested in it once more, get
it back in the top ten where it deserves to be.
As for how long we've been reading the title- personally i've got a bunch of
Adventure comics 100 pagers, which were all i could get my hands on as a kid in
the UK. But I got a decent run of Grell issues, which I loved. And then dipped
in and out until the Great darkness stuff which had me hooked again. My reading
was mainly limited to what I could get from my local newsstand-which was
sporadic at best. I also loved the TMK era stuff, which I was able to stick
with having discovered Forbidden Planet in London by then. And I've pretty much
stuck with it since then.
Mr Snyder, yours is the sort of purile comment I was going on about and I can't
be arsed to think about it any longer....
Ben, I'll get try to respond to your interseting points soon, but it's late now
and I 've got a feeling there's a nasty present waiting for me in my littlest
one's PJs!
I hope we can keep this going, just the fatc that there's so many of you out
there actively talking about the books at the moment can only be good. I'm sure
we all want the titles to succeed.
Cheers
Andy
Johanna Draper Carlson
> OK guys, this'll have to be quick, I'm on diaper duty tonight and the little
> one could blow at any moment!
Better you than me! :)
> the thing that gets my back up
> is sweeping statments like, "the art sucks' ,'the art is ugly', 'he
> can't draw' and the like.
Does that include sweeping statements like "you're all wrong" and "all
opinions on art are subjective"? (Just yanking your chain. :) )
> Johanna, (hello again BTW it's nice to talk to you once more)
Thank you! And ditto!
> as a writer you've got to stick to what you're trying to achieve and
> plough ahead.
Oh, heck, yes! I'm certainly not suggesting that you change any of your
plans based on a non-random sampling of some group of fans. I just want to
express my opinion (which I've supported with examples I feel are relevant)
without someone calling me biased or a loudmouth just for being online.
> As far as Olivier's concerned, I'm still sticking to the 'art is subjective'
> argument. Simple fact. It is.
Unless you care to post why you think that, we're reduced to simple
contradiction, I'm afraid.
> all the costumes were there,
> properly realised and Tom colored everyone as per style sheet.
Who were the characters on page 19, the ones with Star Boy? I've heard too
many guesses to know.
> Personally, I think he's got a fluid, Anime style of story telling
Not any anime I've ever seen, but I haven't watched that many.
> evryone has to start somewhere
Sure. But it's very unusual for an artist to get their first work with one
of the big two without having SOMETHING published somewhere first.
Steve Parker
>When you get a chance, could you take some time to explain how he's
>similar to them? I don't see the resemblance to Simonson's work and, off
>the top of my head, I can't recall who Warren is.
Does a very funny manga-esqe book called Dirty Pair. He also did a
Teen Titans one shot ("Scissors, Paper, Stone" or something like...) a
few years back.
Don't see much similarity between 'em myself, but....
Steve
Pheersum
>
> ANDY LANGO wrote:
> >
> > I'm all up for constructive crits. Reasoned insights. Passionate
> > debate and story hints!
>
> So you claim -- but *constructive* critism requires having some kind of
> positive response to something about the story and/or the art. That ipso
> facto loads the dice in favor of those who *like* what you lot are doing
> and disenfranchises those of us who have major and serious objections.
I disagree with this statement. Any real criticism can be formulated in
a constructive manner, whether it be positive or negative. If one
believes that the art is ugly that is their judgement call. But if they
then say that the artist can't draw, or is an idiot that is merely name
calling. In this society of so-called critics (movie, TV, music) who
have a large negative vocabulary, but choke when there is something to
praise, it is admittedly difficult criticise in an always constructive
manner.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
pheersum is eric schultheis. visit http://www.netwizards.net/~pheersum/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Alan Chary
ANDY LANGO <andy...@aol.com> wrote:
>OK guys, this'll have to be quick, I'm on diaper duty tonight and the little
>one could blow at any moment!
>is sweeping statments like, "the art sucks' ,'the art is ugly', 'he can't draw'
>and the like.
Then you've got problems, because the art is ugly and he can't draw.
(Okay, that was a shot at you, not Coipel. His backgrounds and scenery are
quite good. The characters he's got real problems with. If you want to
help the guy out, write some stories that are heavier on atmosphere and
don't load up on the characters.)
>As far as Olivier's concerned, I'm still sticking to the 'art is subjective'
>argument. Simple fact. It is.
That isn't an argument. It's an assertion.
And frankly, you do not think the art is where it should be either or you
wouldn't have brought up the fact that it was his first job.
If you didn't think the art needed improvement, you would not have
mentioned that at all. If the art is purely a matter of subjective opinion
what is this man going to do with more practice?
>stylistic approach is taken. Some have commented that Olivier's anatomy is
>off- IYO that is. Look at any stylised artist out there (and in my book,
>virtually ALL comic art is stylised it's the nature of the beast) and you'll
>see anatomical rules flying out the window. Also, the point has been made that
Consistently. Not varying in the same character from panel to panel.
>the story was 'hard to follow' and characters were difficult to identify. I
>agree to a point: the point being that this is Olivier's vision of the Legion,
>they are his interpritations of the characters and, coming after some one with
>such a clean, open style as Jeff, I can see how Olivier's grittier, more
>textural approach could be a culture shock. But all the costumes were there,
>properly realised and Tom colored everyone as per style sheet. And once again,
>criticsim about his storytelling technique falls into the subjjective camp.
Only subjective as goes likeing it. Empirically demonstrable issues about
panel structure are facts.
>Personally, I think he's got a fluid, Anime style of story telling that is very
>cinematic and European, it reminds me of Walt Simonson and Adam Warren. But
How so?
His panel flow, stucture, and anatomical sense are completely different
from that of Simonson. *Maybe* his sequencing.
>that's me, you may not 'get it' if not, no sweat but people shouldn't stand up
>on a pedistal and claim in an all-knowing attitude that he's WRONG or
>INCORRECT. coz it just ain't so.
This is what I Love about relativists. Mate, you've just made an absolute
statement.
And you're wrong.
>I mentioned before that this is Olivier's first professional comic work and
>someone swiped that why must he be inflicted on you Legion readers. Give us a
>break, evryone has to start somewhere and everyone (unless they have an ego
>like a living planet) continues to learn with every job they undertake. So,
>this shot just ain't fair.
I made the statement. And I stand by it. Again, if you think his art is
fine as is, why do you claim it's relevant that this is his first
assignment.
>I know fan forums are a cruel and take no prisioners but I'm a big boy and can
>take the punishment. And I truly want to hear what you've got to say and will
>honestly take on board any coments I feel have merit But, and it's a BIG BUT,
>don't expect me to sit back and take what ever abuse is slung around- I'll
>reply in kind (I have as much right to 'vent' as ther next man)!
The story is okay as far as it goes. The art is lousy. And I've given
demonstrable reasons for saying that.
--
In memoriam Walter Payton, 1954-1999, the greatest Bear of all time.
"Being the fastest? I wasn't. Being the strongest? I wasn't. Being the biggest?
I wasn't. I had something that nobody else had. I think I was the smartest."
-- Sweetness
Sidne G. Ward
>And once again,
>criticsim about his storytelling technique falls into the subjjective camp.
>Personally, I think he's got a fluid, Anime style of story telling that is very
>cinematic and European, it reminds me of Walt Simonson and Adam Warren.
When you get a chance, could you take some time to explain how he's
similar to them? I don't see the resemblance to Simonson's work and, off
the top of my head, I can't recall who Warren is.
>I know fan forums are a cruel and take no prisioners but I'm a big boy and can
>take the punishment. And I truly want to hear what you've got to say and will
>honestly take on board any coments I feel have merit But, and it's a BIG BUT,
>don't expect me to sit back and take what ever abuse is slung around- I'll
>reply in kind (I have as much right to 'vent' as ther next man)!
Absolutely. And I really do hope you stick around here and continue to
participate. It might not always be pleasant, but in the long run I think
you'll find a lot of people love discussing their favorite comics with the
creators, particularly if those creators are willing to treat our comments
as valid (even if they disagree).
>Sidne- I never intended my comments to invalidate any of your posts and, as
>I've said, my ears are open, but don't expect me to role over and play dead- my
>points are as valid as your own.
I'd be the first person (well, one of many actually) to defend your right
to post your point of view. Even if I don't always agree.
>But you make a good point about creators
>moving on. You'll have to trust me when I say Dan and I are comitted to this
>book for the long haul. We want to get people interested in it once more, get
>it back in the top ten where it deserves to be.
I'm glad to hear you're interested in the LSH long term. Nothing worse
than creators who jump in, change everything around, and bail. I hope
you're able to get more people interested in the LSH, too. But as Troy
mentioned awhile back, I think it might be difficult to get people to jump
on during a mini-series even if word of mouth spreads.
>As for how long we've been reading the title- personally i've got a bunch of
>Adventure comics 100 pagers, which were all i could get my hands on as a kid in
>the UK. But I got a decent run of Grell issues, which I loved. And then dipped
>in and out until the Great darkness stuff which had me hooked again. My reading
>was mainly limited to what I could get from my local newsstand-which was
>sporadic at best. I also loved the TMK era stuff, which I was able to stick
>with having discovered Forbidden Planet in London by then. And I've pretty much
>stuck with it since then.
Any favorite storyline(s)? How about favorite characters?
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
David J. Snyder
Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>similar to them? I don't see the resemblance to Simonson's work and, off
>the top of my head, I can't recall who Warren is.
>
done the Titans Paper Rock Scissors Elseworlds, and some Gen-13 projects.
Unlike Coipel, his artwork is not ugly. And you can tell which
character is which, even in black and white.
-Dave
John Northey
>I mentioned before that this is Olivier's first professional comic work and
>someone swiped that why must he be inflicted on you Legion readers. Give us a
>break, evryone has to start somewhere and everyone (unless they have an ego
>like a living planet) continues to learn with every job they undertake. So,
>this shot just ain't fair.
Just thought I'd add something here (I think I mentioned it earlier
but might not have). LSH fans have just gone through two rookies in
under two years doing the art chores (neither had many issues under
their belts, LSH being their first big assignment). Both failed to
gain support here and, given both were fired, didn't get much from up
top. Basically, the last established artist to do LSH was probably
Giffen, and his rep was largely created by his LSH work. We did get
some talented pencillers starting up in the past ten years (Moy,
Immonen, Sprouse) but the last two really made fans jumpy at the sight
of yet another rookie, especially when some popular (around here)
established artists have stated they would enjoy doing LSH again (such
as Collen Doran, Dave Cockrum, Keith Giffen).
Ah well. We'll see if he is loved by the time LSH Lost starts up.
Stranger things have happened.
Tom Galloway
ANDY LANGO <andy...@aol.com> wrote:
>As far as Olivier's concerned, I'm still sticking to the 'art is subjective'
>argument. Simple fact. It is.
>regulations doesn't fly for me. Sure there are nominal technical parameters in
>which an artist has to work (sequential panels, gutters, room for dialog etc)
>but that's about it, the rest is up for grabs and all can go fly when a
One thing though. Let's say I agree with the 'art is subjective' bit
(actually, I think there's a whole range of how correct that statement is,
and you're at one extreme while I'm much closer to the other side past the
middle, but I digress); there's still a point which isn't subjective about
it worth noting.
Namely, how many people's subjective opinion of the art amounts to "Jeez
that's ugly!" (substitute "inappropriate for this book" for ugly if you like;
I like Gene Colon's work a lot, but don't think it'd work at all on the
Legion for more than a very special fill-in written around his strengths).
Right now, I'd be very nervous about the number of people (and the secondary
reports) saying they have serious problems with the art as 1) from experience,
these aren't people who would say such just to be complaining or because it's
a different artist; they're being significantly turned off from the book due
to the art and 2) sales aren't anywhere near high enough to risk significantly
alienating a significant chunk of the readership due to this choice of
polarizing artist and style.
It's your opinion to think "These fools! Don't they realize the artistic
genius in their midst?"; heck, I think it all the time, just without the
"artistic" bit. :-) But don't ignore that a fair number of pretty sharp
and longterm Legion fans are having serious qualms about the art, to the
point where several are dropping the book. No, you (editorial you) shouldn't
listen/obey every nitpick/idea tossed out by J. Random Fan. But on the other
hand, don't ignore it when a lot of reasonable fen point out the same thing(s)
they're having problems with. While I'm no doubt personally biased, I'd say
this group of fans has been pretty good over v4 and the reboot at noticing
the "jump the shark" [1] moments and diagnosing problems with the books which
eventually led to significant declines in readership.
[1] www.jumptheshark.com is a website which takes nominations/votes for what
the moment was when a tv series went into decline; i.e. it was good in general
until event/moment X, then it was generally downhill after that. The specific
jump the shark term refers to a Happy Days episode where Fonzie jumped his
motorcycle over a tank of sharks.
tyg t...@netcom.com
Sidne G. Ward
>In article <7vqsaf$iq9$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>similar to them? I don't see the resemblance to Simonson's work and, off
>>the top of my head, I can't recall who Warren is.
>>
>Adam Warren is best known for his work on Dirty Pair. He's also
>done the Titans Paper Rock Scissors Elseworlds, and some Gen-13 projects.
Then I don't see the resemblance to Warren's work either.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Sidne G. Ward
>While I'm no doubt personally biased, I'd say
>this group of fans has been pretty good over v4 and the reboot at noticing
>the "jump the shark" [1] moments and diagnosing problems with the books which
>eventually led to significant declines in readership.
I'd have to nominate stranding half the Legion in the 20th century
storyline for the top "jump the shark" moment of the last 10 years.
At this point, I think that readership has declined so much that LOTD
won't have as significant an impact.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Steve Reed
>I'd have to nominate stranding half the Legion in the 20th century
>storyline for the top "jump the shark" moment of the last 10 years.
If we go back only a couple more years, I'd place the turning moment of
unmistakable decline at LSH v3 n50.
"Life, Death, and the End of Time" was the culmination of an overwrought
internal conspiracy, a Pyrrhic plot victory over the Time Trapper that
resulted in a mortally wounded Mon-El and a shunned Brainy departing from the
Legion. With two such pivot points gone (let alone Mysa being so bitter that
she also left), the entire concept lost direction.
Levitz, however, was losing his fine focus -- after a decade of attention to
the LSH, I don't blame him for that. He was a year away from ending his
writing of the Legion. And a changed (for the worse) form of Giffen's art came
on board at that point ... not at all a coincidence, I'd say.
The final year of v3 was baroque (the uniforms) and overplotted (Magic Wars),
but nonetheless was genuinely heroic, not part of a dystopia, and far higher
in quality than what followed, when TMK started running amok.
Compared to the operatic heights of that kind of mythic fall, the flirting
with the mediocre that seems to be occurring now is mere radio static.
--
* Stev...@earthling.net *
"Every normal man must be tempted at times
to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken
The answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything
about Brushing Opponents Aside Gracefully was:
34. So long, Walter "Sweetness" Payton ...
T. Troy McNemar
wrote:
>t...@netcom.com (Tom Galloway) writes:
>>While I'm no doubt personally biased, I'd say
>>this group of fans has been pretty good over v4 and the reboot at noticing
>>the "jump the shark" [1] moments and diagnosing problems with the books which
>>eventually led to significant declines in readership.
>
>I'd have to nominate stranding half the Legion in the 20th century
>storyline for the top "jump the shark" moment of the last 10 years.
I'd nominate Emerald Violet.
--
T. Troy McNemar Tr...@McNemar.com
"Ro dluow uoy ekil ot gniws no a rats?"
-Zatana Crosby
Favorite Comic of the Week: DAREDEVIL v2 #9
Runner-up: KURT BUSIEK'S ASTRO CITY v2 #20
http://www.McNemar.com
Ben Weiss
> >I'd place the turning moment of
> >unmistakable decline at LSH v3 n50.
>
> i would too. the rest of that run (#51-63) didn't do a whole lot for me.
I disagree here. I thought that the Levitz run hit a dry patch with the endless
Starfinger storyline, then recovered to an interesting last year that culminated in
two classic issues ("If Thine Eye Offend Thee" and "Ghosts in the Clubhouse").
> I
> liked the TMK era, but it doesn't top what went before.
That had its own jumping-the-shark moment with the Khund War in #15-17. By the
time it started to return to the original plotline with the Terra Mosaic, the
momentum was gone.
> i wholeheartedly
> enjoyed the reboot the first couple years--until about when the Legionbaires
> got stranded in the 20th.
Agreed--this was definitely the turning point, despite some scattered strong
stories in Team 20. Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
Carsda
>unmistakable decline at LSH v3 n50.
i would too. the rest of that run (#51-63) didn't do a whole lot for me. I
liked the TMK era, but it doesn't top what went before. i wholeheartedly
enjoyed the reboot the first couple years--until about when the Legionbaires
got stranded in the 20th. while i still enjoyed those--it went on waaaayyy
toooooo looooong--they weren't as good as some of what went before. the less
said about the last year or so the better. splitting the team between earth
and the outpost is the jumping the shark moment of the reboot. it's the LEGION
of super-heroes, for god's sake. the 2 books were published so that the flow
worked from one book to the next--not to have 2 separate storylines.
Dale Hicks
> Sidne Ward wrote:
>
> >I'd have to nominate stranding half the Legion in the 20th century
>
In a fit of Me Too posts, he exclaimed, "I agree."
I really never knew that anyone would agree with me on that point,
and it's interesting to see that you picked it. Of course I should
have had a clue when I responded to the question "what's a true Legion
fan" with the comment "someone who has to collect every issue from
about SLSH 250 to LSH (V3) 50."
For postboot, however, I place the big jump right about the Swan
tribute story. It seemed that this was when the Legion started
to overstay their time in the 20th century, the creators got bored
with the team, and the book went into a holding pattern until issue
100.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
David Crowe
: AOL LSH chat yesterday as well as the one where the 20th century storyline
: was announced. There was a *lot* more negative reaction at the latter.
I hate to be cynical, but could that be because more people cared about
the Legion then? That years of mediocrity have lead to apathy?
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to find out who this Cubone guy is. Any
cute cartoon animal who wears the skull of one of his defeated enemies as
headwear is my kinda cute cartoon animal.
-Kurt Busiek on Pokemon
David Crowe
: >In article <7vqsaf$iq9$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
: >Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
: >>similar to them? I don't see the resemblance to Simonson's work and, off
: >>the top of my head, I can't recall who Warren is.
: >>
: >Adam Warren is best known for his work on Dirty Pair. He's also
: >done the Titans Paper Rock Scissors Elseworlds, and some Gen-13 projects.
: Then I don't see the resemblance to Warren's work either.
I'm a big Warren fan from a while back and he's the last artist I'd
compare to Copiel.
Warren's stuff is always very clean and excruciatingly detailed, even in
dirty or dark scenes.
Jim Caldwell
In article <7vtguk$5sk$5...@nnrp03.primenet.com>, David wrote:
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>: Well, no one's called this reaction a "bloodbath" yet. And I was at
>the
>: AOL LSH chat yesterday as well as the one where the 20th century storyline
>: was announced. There was a *lot* more negative reaction at the latter.
>
>I hate to be cynical, but could that be because more people cared about
>the Legion then? That years of mediocrity have lead to apathy?
>
Having attended both, your first question could possibly answered "yes". When
the 20thC Chat was held, the room was nearly full, as I recall, with nearly 40
people including 5 of the creative staff (McCraw, Peyer, Moy, Carlson and
McAvennie). Tuesday's chat had approximately 17 all told (several came and
went) including 3 on the team (Abnett, Lanning and McAvennie).
Of the fans, only Sidne, Brad Horning and myself were at both chats.(I'm pretty
sure on that. Feel free to correct me) While it could be that more people cared
about the Legion then, it could also be that more AOL subscribers could come to
a chat at 6pm EST (5:30 nowadays) than they can now. A lot of the old chat
regulars have left AOL.
For the most part, the people who did attend Tuesday's chat were generally
quite enthusiastic about LSH 122. But it's a different group of people.
If anyone out there happens to have a log of the 20th Century Chat, I'd love to
see it.
Jim Caldwell
<remove the effluvium from my address>
"Contempt for the audience! It's what killed Dennis Day!"
- Phil "Frank Sinatra" Hartman
Sidne G. Ward
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>: Well, no one's called this reaction a "bloodbath" yet. And I was at the
>: AOL LSH chat yesterday as well as the one where the 20th century storyline
>: was announced. There was a *lot* more negative reaction at the latter.
>I hate to be cynical, but could that be because more people cared about
>the Legion then? That years of mediocrity have lead to apathy?
I think that's quite likely. For instance, there were only about 11 or 12
attendees at Tuesday's chat (counting the creators) and there were
probably close to 30 people at the one announcing the 20th century
plotline. Part of that is due to DC's AOL area in general being less
populated these days since the message boards have moved to the web, but
probably not all of it.
Unfortunately, overcoming the current apathy of Legion fans is going to
prove quite a formidable task.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Sidne G. Ward
>For postboot, however, I place the big jump right about the Swan
>tribute story. It seemed that this was when the Legion started
>to overstay their time in the 20th century, the creators got bored
>with the team, and the book went into a holding pattern until issue
>100.
For a specific issue, I'll have to say you've made a persuasive argument.
That issue was odd, to say the least. And the "holding pattern" seemed so
forced just waiting for the 100th issue. I wish they'd just brought the
Legion home and written a regular story for LSH #100 instead of forcing
the "event" into the numbering system.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Dale Hicks
> "Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> writes:
>
> >For postboot, however, I place the big jump right about the Swan
> >tribute story. It seemed that this was when the Legion started
> >to overstay their time in the 20th century, the creators got bored
> >with the team, and the book went into a holding pattern until issue
> >100.
>
> For a specific issue, I'll have to say you've made a persuasive argument.
> That issue was odd, to say the least.
Don't mistake my words, I should've said right after that issue. It
was a very odd one, but I thought it inspired. It's an utter shame
that they had to follow it with the other timejump and the wretched
Trapper storyline, I felt it worked just fine as an out of continuity
tale, a fitting tribute.
It's just coincidental it was at the point where all the meaningful
crossovers occured (I think the only good one, the Supergirl annual,
was before this issue) and the pointless ones started. Genesis helped,
but wasn't the sole culprit.
Of course, I think someone mentioned that this is about the time of
the editor handover, so it may not be pure coincidence. I haven't
checked that, though.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Carsda
>And the "holding pattern" seemed so
>forced just waiting for the 100th issue. I wish they'd just brought the
>Legion home and written a regular story for LSH #100 instead of forcing
>the "event" into the numbering system.
that was about the time when it became clear to me that they were waiting for
issue #100 to bring them home. i agree. screw the numbering system and just
give us a good story...
ANDY LANGO
another thread and there are only so many hours in the night in which to read
and reply...
> Bill Roper (ro...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
>Let me try to phrase this in as constructive a way as possible.
>The artwork is getting in the way of your ability to tell the story. It
makes it hard to follow what's going on. It is not simply that I find it
>to be ugly, it's that I can't tell who is who or what it is that they're
supposed to be doing.
>I am *literally* better off just reading the captions and the word
balloons because the artwork is detracting that much from the story
>while adding nearly *zero* information. (Not quite zero, but pretty
close.)
I’m sorry you can’t get into it, Bill. But this still boils down to subjective
opinion. I’ve replied to numerous posts that are the complete opposite to what
your saying here. And all concerned in the production of the book (and this
goes to the highest levels at DC) seem to agree too. In fact Olivier’s work on
the book has got even the most jaded, cigar chewing editors interested in the
title once more. Still, if you’re at least reading the captions, maybe we’re
half way there :)
>I think that you guys did a bang up job on Resurrection Man which is
one of the reasons that I find this so frustrating. I believe that
>you're capable of writing a good Legion story. I think that the
particular direction that you've chosen -- at least as much as you've
>revealed in the first issue -- is a mistake in that it appears to be
recapitulating major plot elements that nearly got the Legion books
>cancelled several years ago.
I’m glad you liked ResMan, Dan and I are very proud of that title and what we
did with it went a long way to getting us the gig on the Legion books.
As you point out, this is only the first issue. Let’s wait and see what you
think after the four, if you’re willing to stick around that is.
If the plot elements you’re referring to are the invasion of Earth by an alien
threat, then we’re guilty. Our only defence is that this is a classic sci-fi
theme and hopefully, what will make it different and interesting is the
approach, look (I know we’re batting a loser here with you) and the content
of our version of this old favourite. Just cause it’s been done before ain’t
stopped many a creator in all fields doing it again their way.
>I combine this with artwork that I believe that the average fan is
going to find completely incomprehensible and I find it difficult to
>figure out who is going to buy the book. The storyline seems ideally
designed as a *jumping-off* point for the current readers. I think
>that the artwork is going to prevent new readers from jumping on,
regardless of the merits of the underlying story.
Once again, this is your opinion based on your own response to the artwork, one
which the comments I’ve been getting don’t bear out. I’ve received as many, if
not more responses from long time readers saying they loved it and are excited
about the books for the first time in ages as well as ‘strayed’ and new readers
who are using this as a chance to get back into the book and characters. And
after all, isn’t that what we all want? LSH #122 has even sold out in several
stores, now when was the last time that happened? (Admittedly if a store only
orders 3 copies of the bloody thing then the chances of it selling out are
high, but that’s another argument!).
>It smells to me like a recipe that is going to result in cancellation.
IYHO or is it just IYO?
A valid point, but at least we’re trying something. Our aim isn’t to drive the
book into the ground and get it cancelled, far from it, that would put us out
of a job. If sales bomb then we’ll be kicked off the title and hopefully
there’ll be enough interest in it for someone else to have a go, and so on and
so on until it bites the big one, to return five years later (now where’ve I
heard that phrase before?) Bottom line, though, Bill, is that sales were poor
enough on the two titles for one of them to get canned before we took over (and
this is no slight on the previous creative teams who’s dedication and track
record are plain to see). So, you see, it was time for a change. A chance to
shake things up and generate some interest in the titles which had been
haemorrhaging readers steadily from it’s heydays some years ago. Like what we
do or loathe it, only time (and sales) will tell if this strategy has paid off.
And if we fail we can at least say we tried...
>I understand that this isn't the sort of reaction that you're going to
enjoy reading. But it *is* an honest reaction and, to that extent, the
>only one that's worth telling you about.
I have no problem with that. It’s the snide, bitchy, arrogant, condescending
pratts who get my back up.
>Honest people don't set out to produce bad work. But they do sometimes
>have bad judgment. I think that's the case here.
Kind sentiments but still only your take and let’s hope we can turn it around
over the next few issue, whaddya say?
>The problem I have is that I see no evidence that Coipel *is* a good artist.
>I see that he has problems with anatomy. I see that he has problems making
>the story flow so that I can understand what's going on.
>Seriously, what do *you* see in Coipel's work that makes you think that he's
capable of drawing the socks off most of the best out there?
Bill, it’s obvious you don’t get Olivier’s stuff and anything I say won’t turn
that around. I tried in my original post and in several others since then but
basically those of you who don’t like his stuff aren’t suddenly going to be
converted by any defence I put up and frankly I don’t see why I should have to
defend him anyway (I only replied in the first place because the level of
vehemence felt by some-not you- was bordering on hysterical and in many places
was downright insulting). If you were to total up pros and cons on his artwork
on this and the DCU boards I reckon the pros would have it but we’ve got to put
it into perspective: there’s only a handful of regular posters both here and
there (about 25 or so by my reckoning who post on a regular -weekly- basis) out
of a readership that numbers the thousands. It’s small time: the vocal minority
for both sides of the coin. The majority of readers tend to buy the book, read
it, like or hate it and come back for more next month, or not if they think it
sucks. What we’ve got on the boards is a small reflection of that and who’s to
say what that giant sleeping majority think? Only sales will tell.
>(I have no doubt that McAvennie likes his work. But the last three artists
on the book -- Armstrong, Kolins, and now Coipel -- have all looked pretty
>bad to me. Armstrong may or may not have been his decision, but the last
>two must have been. Thus, I start to doubt his ability in that area.)
That’s your right to do so. But you are only basing your call on your own
perception of what he’s done or not done. I’m sure if his bosses think likewise
he’d be heading for the door, pronto (you have to remember the top guy at DC
has more than just a passing interest in the fate of the Legion books and that
should tell you alot!).
Anyway, thanks for you post Bill, This is the type of discussion I came onto
the boards for in the first place- being the naive fool that I am I thought we
all shared a common love for the title and a genuine desire to see it succeed
and flourish from the very obvious doldrums it is in now.
Even though we may disagree on various points, Bill, I believe it’s through
this sort of forum we can learn to appreciate both sides of the debate.
Cheers mate
Andy
ANDY LANGO
>It's not for you. It's for other fans. If you want to try to elevate the
level of discussion, feel free to join in. But ranting back at us is even
>more counterproductive than the moan session that you joined.
Well pardon me for breathing!
In my ignorance, I thought some of you might appreciate a chance to enter a
dialog with the creators. I didn’t realise this was a ‘fans only’ lock out.
And what gives you the right to rant and swipe at me and leaves me with the
only option of elevating the discussion?
Once again, I thought I was doing that with the comments I made. i was trying
to positive whilst not letting the ‘ranters’ out there get away with some of
the nonsense they’ve been spouting.
I said before, I’ll reply in kind- if you can dish it you should be able to
take it and not whine that ‘it’s not fair, you’re just descending to our
level’.
>I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
>work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile. Or you can
>do your level best to alienate some of us further, it's up to you.
‘spin *rac’? Sorry I don’t know what this means.
I wasn’t trying to alienate just show you that there are certain ways of
presenting your comments that will get you heard and other ways that will only
get the backs up of the people you’re trying to get through to.
Andy
All of the above is, of course, only MHO.
SDelMonte
(Steve Reed) writes:
>If we go back only a couple more years, I'd place the turning moment of
>unmistakable decline at LSH v3 n50.
>
>"Life, Death, and the End of Time" was the culmination of an overwrought
>internal conspiracy, a Pyrrhic plot victory over the Time Trapper that
>resulted in a mortally wounded Mon-El and a shunned Brainy departing from the
>
>Legion. With two such pivot points gone (let alone Mysa being so bitter that
>she also left), the entire concept lost direction.
>
>Levitz, however, was losing his fine focus -- after a decade of attention to
>the LSH, I don't blame him for that. He was a year away from ending his
>writing of the Legion. And a changed (for the worse) form of Giffen's art
>came
>on board at that point ... not at all a coincidence, I'd say.
>
>The final year of v3 was baroque (the uniforms) and overplotted (Magic Wars),
>
>but nonetheless was genuinely heroic, not part of a dystopia, and far higher
>in quality than what followed, when TMK started running amok.
>
>Compared to the operatic heights of that kind of mythic fall, the flirting
>with the mediocre that seems to be occurring now is mere radio static.
Ironically, v3 #50 was the first issue of LSH I bought and I fell in love with
the team immediately and got more and more hooked. I liked the new uniforms
and the last year of plots, and then I came back for v4 and of course remain
one of its defenders.
So it's all in the eye of reader. And when I've gone back find older LSH
tales, they rarely seem as got (except for GDS, of course).
Simon DelMonte
SDelMonte
<Tr...@McNemar.com> writes:
>>I'd have to nominate stranding half the Legion in the 20th century
>>storyline for the top "jump the shark" moment of the last 10 years.
>
>I'd nominate Emerald Violet.
>
For the current run, I'd go with DCR. For TMK, I'd go with the destruction of
Earth. And to carry the Happy Days metaphor further, the moment when "Richie
left" was probably the junior LSH story with Ivy.
Simon DelMonte
Michael Alan Chary
>level of discussion, feel free to join in. But ranting back at us is even
>>more counterproductive than the moan session that you joined.
>
>Well pardon me for breathing!
And pardon us for not liking the art.
>In my ignorance, I thought some of you might appreciate a chance to enter a
>dialog with the creators. I didn’t realise this was a ‘fans only’ lock out.
I would like to enter into a dialog with the creators. The only creator to
show up so far has just made flat, unsupported assertion and accused
longtime readers of being, essentially, crybabies.
I think the story is fine so far. I think the art is awful. I think the
art is demonstrably awful and I have explained why. You, otoh, have
brought to mind Roger Angel's description of Ted Williams.
I have met many LSH creators over the years. Cory Carani is a good friend
of mine. Ron Boyd, Tom Peyer, Tom McCraw, Jeff and Phil Moy are fairly
good buddies of mine, though I don't get to talk with them as much as I'd
like. Not just as regards LSH. When I talk with Cory we discuss science
and philosophy and art.
>And what gives you the right to rant and swipe at me and leaves me with the
>only option of elevating the discussion?
The same thing that gives you the right to act like an ass and then whine
that we're being unfair. It's called free will.
>Once again, I thought I was doing that with the comments I made. i was trying
>to positive whilst not letting the ‘ranters’ out there get away with some of
>the nonsense they’ve been spouting.
>I said before, I’ll reply in kind- if you can dish it you should be able to
>take it and not whine that ‘it’s not fair, you’re just descending to our
>level’.
Don't overestimate us. If Coipel's anatomy is an artistic choice, it's a
bad one. If you don't draw characters in the same proportion from panel to
panel, it makes it extreme difficult to follow the story. If you make them
ugly, it make the reader not *want* to follow the story. If the action in
the right hand panels leads directly across the page into the first panel
of the next page during a fight scene, it makes the action far to follow.
If a drawing doesn't have a focus point, the reader can't immediately tell
where his eye is supposed to go.
Perspective, anatomy, aesthetics, flow. Empirical features of comics art.
All lacking in the past issue. Maybe Coipel could neglect fanel flow if he
added some dynamics to his individual panels like strip guys do.
Sure, in some sense that's subjective opinion. It is also my subjective
opinion that the Earth orbits the sun and that 2+2=4. These opinions
happen to mesh with reality because they are supported by evidence.
>>I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
>>work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile. Or you can
>>do your level best to alienate some of us further, it's up to you.
>
>‘spin *rac’? Sorry I don’t know what this means.
>I wasn’t trying to alienate just show you that there are certain ways of
>presenting your comments that will get you heard and other ways that will only
>get the backs up of the people you’re trying to get through to.
Well, you've certainly done the latter. Congratulations.
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Of course, I think someone mentioned that this is about the time of
> the editor handover, so it may not be pure coincidence.
If we're talking about the same period, it was just before. KC's last issue
was #100, and he stayed longer than originally planned to get there. Which
may have been part of the problem -- he was more distracted than he'd been
previously, when he could devote all his attention to the books.
Johanna
List Owner, Legion-List
Discussion of all eras and incarnations of the Legion of Super-Heroes comic
book and characters from DC Comics. Friendly and welcoming to all LSH fans.
T. Troy McNemar
>T. Troy McNemar <Tr...@McNemar.com> writes:
>>It's not for you. It's for other fans. If you want to try to elevate the
>>level of discussion, feel free to join in. But ranting back at us is even
>>more counterproductive than the moan session that you joined.
>
>Well pardon me for breathing!
You don't need my pardon to breathe.
>In my ignorance, I thought some of you might appreciate a chance to enter a
>dialog with the creators. I didn’t realise this was a ‘fans only’ lock out.
This forum is not a "fans only" lock out. We couldn't stop you from
participating if we wanted to. And I doubt that anyone wants you to.
You cut the sentence of yours to which I was responding, which was "I don't
want to come off as holier-than-thou but I can't see what benifit [sic]
there is in this type of moan session." It's the moan session that isn't
for you. You're not going to find any constructive criticism in it.
That's not its purpose. The moan session is for other fans.
>And what gives you the right to rant and swipe at me and leaves me with the
>only option of elevating the discussion?
First, why wouldn't I have that right? Second, when did I rant and swipe
at you?
>Once again, I thought I was doing that with the comments I made. i was trying
>to positive whilst not letting the ‘ranters’ out there get away with some of
>the nonsense they’ve been spouting.
Perish forbid that anyone would "get away with" having a poor opinion of
the art in LSH #122. The owner and manager of my local comic shop both
called it ugly, you'd better go deal with them, too.
>I said before, I’ll reply in kind- if you can dish it you should be able to
>take it and not whine that ‘it’s not fair, you’re just descending to our
>level’.
I don't see anything unfair about you coming to this newsgroup and flaming
everyone in sight. I just don't see the purpose. Invoking another's anger
rarely sways them to seeing your opinion.
>>I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
>>work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile. Or you can
>>do your level best to alienate some of us further, it's up to you.
>
>‘spin *rac’? Sorry I don’t know what this means.
It means spin the opinion of posters on the rec.arts.comics.* newsgroups.
>I wasn’t trying to alienate just show you that there are certain ways of
>presenting your comments that will get you heard and other ways that will only
>get the backs up of the people you’re trying to get through to.
This is Usenet. We already knew that.
Look, you want to elevate the discussion, here's some questions (please use
spoiler space when responding if appropriate):
Are you happy with LSH #122?
Who are the people accompanying Star Boy?
What's the main characteristic of the Legion that you want to convey with
the Legion of the Damned story? How about for Legion: Lost?
Did you consider using Universo for this story?
Will you be addressing the whereabouts of Andromeda?
Can you be bribed into having Monstress hacked into 100,000 pieces? If so,
how much?
Sidne G. Ward
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote in article <7vtjum$6mn$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>...
>> "Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> writes:
>>
>> >For postboot, however, I place the big jump right about the Swan
>> >tribute story. It seemed that this was when the Legion started
>> >to overstay their time in the 20th century, the creators got bored
>> >with the team, and the book went into a holding pattern until issue
>> >100.
>>
>> For a specific issue, I'll have to say you've made a persuasive argument.
>> That issue was odd, to say the least.
>Don't mistake my words, I should've said right after that issue. It
>was a very odd one, but I thought it inspired. It's an utter shame
>that they had to follow it with the other timejump and the wretched
>Trapper storyline, I felt it worked just fine as an out of continuity
>tale, a fitting tribute.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought (or you thought) that issue was bad.
But it didn't seem much like a Legion story to me. And you're right that
things spiraled down after that.
>It's just coincidental it was at the point where all the meaningful
>crossovers occured (I think the only good one, the Supergirl annual,
>was before this issue) and the pointless ones started. Genesis helped,
>but wasn't the sole culprit.
That seemed odd, too. Just as when it looked like it would be a good idea
to bring the Legion home to the 30th century suddenly they were appearing
all over the place. I'm not sure if "meaningful" is the term I'd use to
describe those crossovers, though. :)
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Steve Reed
>Steve Reed writes:
>>If we go back only a couple more years, I'd place the turning moment of
>>unmistakable decline at LSH v3 n50. [...]
Actually, it'd include n51 -- "The Trial of Brainiac Five" was an interesting
inquiry into morality, but otherwise a fairly pointless exercise. (Still, that
issue had Dawnstar in two new outfits <g> ... see below.)
>>The final year of v3 was baroque (the uniforms) and overplotted (Magic
>>Wars), but nonetheless was genuinely heroic, not part of a dystopia,
>>and far higher in quality than what followed, when TMK started running
>>amok. [...]
>Ironically, v3 #50 was the first issue of LSH I bought and I fell in love with
>the team immediately and got more and more hooked. I liked the new
>uniforms and the last year of plots [...]
Don't misunderstand me, amigo -- I liked it as well. Just as, say (to bring
back the shark-jumping), I liked the first few episodes of "M*A*S*H" after
Henry and Trapper left, and B.J. came on board. Yet the series' storytelling,
in both cases, had nonetheless begun to decline. The momentum of past glories
does usually take a while to stop.
This more "realistic" look that Giffen was trying to add, in his second stint
with the Legion, was done too quickly and was too jarring. Nobody got a chance
to become familiar with its harder edge. In a year or less, it was abandoned.
"Magic Wars" was, to me, always up there with the "Earthwar," "Great
Darkness," and "Universo Project" story lines as being one of the high heroic
points of Levitz's work. It was moving and spirited. It was, however, almost
too busy to enable the reader to follow the characters easily. (It needed five
or six issues, I'd say, not just four.)
And "baroque" is a description, not necessarily a criticism. Take the
one-issue strapless outfit for Dawnstar in n51, and the ornamental buckskin
she wore in n54-63. They were gorgeous in their overdetail. They made her look
beautiful. And they were utterly absurd for heavy-duty Legion work.
The same was true for the others' dull-colored outer uniforms, making all the
characters more difficult to identify. (Especially when Giffen chose to draw
them all with swollen faces.) These were covered with pockets and pouches that
were rarely -used,- unlike in the reboot era.
Sk8Maven
>In my ignorance, I thought some of you might appreciate a chance to
>enter a dialog with the creators.
Enter a dialog with, yes - be subjected to a harangue by, no.
>I didn’t realise this was a ‘fans only’ lock out.
It isn't. QUITE the contrary! Usenet is as absolute a democracy as has
ever existed - EVERYONE'S opinion gets equal exposure, from yours to
Minnie Haha's in Sioux City and Joe Btspflk's in Lower Slobovia. They
ALL have opinions, usually strong ones, and little if any hesitation in
posting them. The main problem you seem to be having with Usenet is that
just *being* one of the Legion authors does not automatically give you
any kind of privileged position or immunity.
>And what gives you the right to rant and swipe at me and leaves me
>with the only option of elevating the discussion?
"Elevating"? Perhaps you mean "escalating"? I haven't noticed the tone
of discussion improving here as a result of your comments -- quite the
opposite.
>Once again, I thought I was doing that with the comments I made. i was
>trying [to be?] positive whilst not letting the ‘ranters’ out there
>get away with some of the nonsense they’ve been spouting.
What you seem to be saying here is that ALL negative opinions about
your/Dan/Olivier's version of the Legion are "nonsense". If you wanted a
circle of devotees worshiping your work and hanging on your every word,
you have come to *entirely* the wrong place. R.a.c.d.l. isn't like that
-- and I don't know anywhere on Usenet that *is*. (I know of some groups
that make *these* recent discussions look polite, civil, and downright
admiring.)
>I said before, I’ll reply in kind- if you can dish it you should be
>able to take it and not whine that ‘it’s not fair, you’re just
>descending to our level’.
That goes for you too. In fact, it goes DOUBLE for you, *because* you
are one of the current creative team and are expected to have better
manners than a spoiled child who throws a tantrum because his classmates
don't like his best buddy's drawings. That may not be "fair", but it's
the way the world works.
>From T. Troy:
>>I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
>>work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile. Or you
>>can do your level best to alienate some of us further, it's up to you.
Back to Andy:
‘spin *rac’? Sorry I don’t know what this means.
It meant to improve fans' opinions of his work by presenting himself as
patient, tolerant, and willing to return a civil answer to even the most
obnoxiously worded comments. Something you manifestly have *not* done up
to this point!
>I wasn’t trying to alienate just show you that there are certain ways
>of presenting your comments that will get you heard and other ways
>that will only get the backs up of the people you’re trying to get
>through to.
Again, this goes for you too -- double. You *don't* automatically get
respect here for who you are or what your real-world position is -- you
get it for how you conduct yourself *on this newsgroup*.
I don't know how familiar you are with the words of US President Harry
S. Truman, but he had one extremely perceptive comment about politics
that applies equally well, or perhaps even better, to Usenet: "If you
can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
You WERE warned. I know you were. I warned you myself. So did others.
Coming onto Usenet and throwing hissy-fits because you were not
immediately greeted with open arms and total worship does nothing but
reinforce the suspicion (voiced on the DC Boards) that you are too
thin-skinned to function well in e-fandom.
Maven
Dale Hicks
> >>I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
> >>work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile.
Who are you thinking of? PAD seems to dish stuff back at people, he's more agressive,
and I doubt you're referring to Waid :). Priest, maybe? While having never enjoyed a thing
the man's written, I thoroughly enjoy his online personality, and appreciate his contributions.
> Can you be bribed into having Monstress hacked into 100,000 pieces? If so,
> how much?
All of this concern with Monstress while Lori is still alive? I say we start the bidding with her.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Dale Hicks
> >It's just coincidental it was at the point where all the meaningful
> >crossovers occured (I think the only good one, the Supergirl annual,
> >was before this issue) and the pointless ones started. Genesis helped,
> >but wasn't the sole culprit.
>
> That seemed odd, too. Just as when it looked like it would be a good idea
> to bring the Legion home to the 30th century suddenly they were appearing
> all over the place. I'm not sure if "meaningful" is the term I'd use to
> describe those crossovers, though. :)
Again my words fail me. Read it as "that was the point where all of the
meaningful crossovers had already occured."
SUPERGIRL Annual worked on Brainy's character. Other stories worked
on the Brainy-Ayla friendship, had a fun crossover with Impulse, and
FINAL NIGHT introduced Ferro Lad back into continuity. The only story
after my breakpoint that is somewhat meaningful is the Deadman/Phase
issue, and that plot has dangled so far that it's hard to put any
positive spin on it.
And I'm prolly wrong in the above paragraph, my memory's weaker than
Ben's.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Dale Hicks
>
> I think the story is fine so far. I think the art is awful. I think the
> art is demonstrably awful and I have explained why. You, otoh, have
> brought to mind Roger Angel's description of Ted Williams.
As a baseball fan, I have to confess ignorance on this one (although
I have a few guesses, what with Ted's relationship with the media).
Care to elucidate?
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
(who doesn't want to make a lame baseball ObLSH)
Carmen Williams
"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> wrote:
> T. Troy McNemar <Tr...@McNemar.com> wrote in article
<L+4iOBQTaIgSZn...@4ax.com>...
> > >>I've seen at least one comic writer spin rac* opinion of his
> > >>work by considered response to even the most reactionary bile.
>
> Who are you thinking of? PAD seems to dish stuff back at people, he's
more agressive,
> and I doubt you're referring to Waid :). Priest, maybe? While having
never enjoyed a thing
> the man's written, I thoroughly enjoy his online personality, and
appreciate his contributions.
Dunno who Troy was thinking of, but I've been quite impressed with how
well Scott Lobdell takes the extremely, ah, *heated* criticism of his
work on X-MEN.
>
> > Can you be bribed into having Monstress hacked into 100,000 pieces?
If so,
> > how much?
>
> All of this concern with Monstress while Lori is still alive? I say
we start the bidding with her.
Ah, but Lori is already out of the group and (mostly) the book.
Therefore she is a lower priority.
I personally don't care so much about Monstress, but if Andy is taking
bribes, I'd pay to get the Brainiac 5.1 thing removed. Or at least the
idiotic name and head-thingies.
Carmen W.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michael Alan Chary
Dale Hicks <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> wrote:
>Michael Alan Chary <mch...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in article
><7vuifq$qsf$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>...
>>
>> I think the story is fine so far. I think the art is awful. I think the
>> art is demonstrably awful and I have explained why. You, otoh, have
>> brought to mind Roger Angel's description of Ted Williams.
>
>As a baseball fan, I have to confess ignorance on this one (although
>I have a few guesses, what with Ted's relationship with the media).
>Care to elucidate?
Basically, that although he was the greatest hitter ever, talking to him,
one come to the conclusion that he deserves a spanking.
Bill Roper
ANDY LANGO <andy...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Bill Roper (ro...@typhoon.xnet.com) wrote:
>
>>Let me try to phrase this in as constructive a way as possible.
>
>>The artwork is getting in the way of your ability to tell the story. It
>makes it hard to follow what's going on. It is not simply that I find it
>>to be ugly, it's that I can't tell who is who or what it is that they're
>supposed to be doing.
>>I am *literally* better off just reading the captions and the word
>balloons because the artwork is detracting that much from the story
>>while adding nearly *zero* information. (Not quite zero, but pretty
>close.)
>
>I'm sorry you can't get into it, Bill. But this still boils down to subjective
>opinion. I've replied to numerous posts that are the complete opposite to what
>your saying here. And all concerned in the production of the book (and this
>goes to the highest levels at DC) seem to agree too. In fact Olivier's work on
>the book has got even the most jaded, cigar chewing editors interested in the
>title once more. Still, if you're at least reading the captions, maybe we're
>half way there :)
Well, the captions aren't too difficult to read. :) Seriously, I would
consider "overwriting" a bit for a while. If there's any possible doubt
as to what's going on in a panel or on a page, I'd err on the side of
assuming that more exposition is better. (Of course, my improv group
occasionally refers to me as Dr. Exposition.) Witness the number of
people who are asking who the characters were who were flying along
with Star Boy. Now, part of the confusion there -- assuming that the
folks who think they're Amazers are right -- is that in one caption, they're
simply referred to as "four of the Blighted"; then in the next caption we talk
about "some of the Legionnaires". This leaves folks trying to figure
out which Legionnaires they are, which -- if they're Amazers -- they'll
*never* manage to do by looking at this.
>I'm glad you liked ResMan, Dan and I are very proud of that title and what we
>did with it went a long way to getting us the gig on the Legion books.
>As you point out, this is only the first issue. Let's wait and see what you
>think after the four, if you're willing to stick around that is.
>If the plot elements you're referring to are the invasion of Earth by an alien
>threat, then we're guilty. Our only defence is that this is a classic sci-fi
>theme and hopefully, what will make it different and interesting is the
>approach, look (I know we're batting a loser here with you) and the content
>of our version of this old favourite. Just cause it's been done before ain't
>stopped many a creator in all fields doing it again their way.
True enough. I'll be getting issues through the end of this storyline,
because they're pre-ordered. After that, well, I have a retailer who
actually *does* order shelf copies, so...
(BTW, my retailer thinks the art is ugly too, but sales are up for the
first issue. And being a businessman, I'm sure he'll make sure to order
enough.)
>>I combine this with artwork that I believe that the average fan is
>going to find completely incomprehensible and I find it difficult to
>>figure out who is going to buy the book. The storyline seems ideally
>designed as a *jumping-off* point for the current readers. I think
>>that the artwork is going to prevent new readers from jumping on,
>regardless of the merits of the underlying story.
>
>Once again, this is your opinion based on your own response to the artwork, one
>which the comments I've been getting don't bear out. I've received as many, if
>not more responses from long time readers saying they loved it and are excited
>about the books for the first time in ages as well as "strayed" and new readers
>who are using this as a chance to get back into the book and characters. And
>after all, isn't that what we all want? LSH #122 has even sold out in several
>stores, now when was the last time that happened? (Admittedly if a store only
>orders 3 copies of the bloody thing then the chances of it selling out are
>high, but that's another argument!).
Personally, I think the excitement might be more due to the writing than
to the artwork, but -- as you've observed -- I'm biased. (Of course,
*everyone's* biased.) These books have been going sidewise and down in
writing for some time now, for which I blame Stern/Merlo more than Peyer.
>>It smells to me like a recipe that is going to result in cancellation.
>
>IYHO or is it just IYO?
Either one works. :)
>A valid point, but at least we're trying something. Our aim isn't to drive the
>book into the ground and get it cancelled, far from it, that would put us out
>of a job. If sales bomb then we'll be kicked off the title and hopefully
>there'll be enough interest in it for someone else to have a go, and so on and
>so on until it bites the big one, to return five years later (now where've I
>heard that phrase before?) Bottom line, though, Bill, is that sales were poor
>enough on the two titles for one of them to get canned before we took over (and
>this is no slight on the previous creative teams who's dedication and track
>record are plain to see). So, you see, it was time for a change. A chance to
>shake things up and generate some interest in the titles which had been
>haemorrhaging readers steadily from it's heydays some years ago. Like what we
>do or loathe it, only time (and sales) will tell if this strategy has paid off.
>And if we fail we can at least say we tried...
And trying *is* better than not trying. Truth to tell, I think the Legion
books would be better off had they canceled one of the books a year or
more ago, putting Peyer/Moy/Carani on the surviving title. But that's
water under the bridge.
>>Honest people don't set out to produce bad work. But they do sometimes
>>have bad judgment. I think that's the case here.
>
>Kind sentiments but still only your take and let's hope we can turn it around
>over the next few issue, whaddya say?
As I said, they're pre-ordered, so you've got a chance.
Can I make another comment here? Part of the problem that I'm having with
this storyline is that it looks like we're losing some of the more
interesting Legionnaires (as in, they're pushing up chokeweed). Now, I
recognize that there are at least half-a-dozen ways to undo this, should
this be your aim, but it's a bit disconcerting when a new team comes on
the book and we see (apparent) corpses starting to pile up. If you're
planning to undo it, it feels like stunting. (Admittedly, the books
could use a stunt or two if it will get readership up to something
rational.) If you're not planning to undo it, it's a waste of perfectly
good characters. This is admittedly a Blighted if you do, Blighted if
you don't situation.
>Anyway, thanks for you post Bill, This is the type of discussion I came onto
>the boards for in the first place- being the naive fool that I am I thought we
>all shared a common love for the title and a genuine desire to see it succeed
>and flourish from the very obvious doldrums it is in now.
>Even though we may disagree on various points, Bill, I believe it's through
>this sort of forum we can learn to appreciate both sides of the debate.
Thanks. I appreciate the fact that someone's listening, even if we don't
agree on everything.
--
Bill Roper, ro...@xnet.com
Chris McCubbin
Carmen Williams <qu...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:800b88$r0v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I personally don't care so much about Monstress, but if Andy is taking
> bribes, I'd pay to get the Brainiac 5.1 thing removed. Or at least the
> idiotic name and head-thingies.
>
the head thingies. They're a logical evolution of the character. Certainly
better than having Brainy grab his crotch every time he wants a force field.
--
______________________________________________
You want to write something ... not just anything ... that says something
about something. Gee, who'd ever believe that you're having trouble
communicating? - Jane Lane
Chris W. McCubbin, Writer
"A very sick man indeed" - Mondo 2000
Incan Monkey God Studios/ http://www.incanmonkey.com
Chris McCubbin
Bill Roper <ro...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote in message
news:800bvc$5lo$1...@flood.xnet.com...
...
>
> And trying *is* better than not trying. Truth to tell, I think the Legion
> books would be better off had they canceled one of the books a year or
> more ago, putting Peyer/Moy/Carani on the surviving title. But that's
> water under the bridge.
Wouldn't have worked. Peyer's a good scripter, but he's not a strong enough
plotter to have balanced everything in the book.
Ben Weiss
> Bill Roper <ro...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote in message
> news:800bvc$5lo$1...@flood.xnet.com...
> ...
> >
> > And trying *is* better than not trying. Truth to tell, I think the Legion
> > books would be better off had they canceled one of the books a year or
> > more ago, putting Peyer/Moy/Carani on the surviving title. But that's
> > water under the bridge.
>
> Wouldn't have worked. Peyer's a good scripter, but he's not a strong enough
> plotter to have balanced everything in the book.
He's uneven, but with a good editor he can turn in first-rate stuff. Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
Sidne G. Ward
>In article <19991105025929...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
>ANDY LANGO <andy...@aol.com> wrote:
>>LSH #122 has even sold out in several
>>stores, now when was the last time that happened? (Admittedly if a store only
>>orders 3 copies of the bloody thing then the chances of it selling out are
>>high, but that's another argument!).
>Personally, I think the excitement might be more due to the writing than
>to the artwork, but -- as you've observed -- I'm biased. (Of course,
>*everyone's* biased.) These books have been going sidewise and down in
>writing for some time now, for which I blame Stern/Merlo more than Peyer.
I've heard the same thing from other people. My local comic shop manager
quit reading the Legion books over a year ago (after I'd convinced him to
*start* reading them again about 3 years ago). He really likes the story
and thinks it has potential. And he says a number of his customers who
read Resurrection Man have picked up the book. Sales have gone up (at
least on the first issue).
But as positive as he is about the book, even he doesn't care for the art.
He and I agree that the characters are ugly and there are too many lines
in the artwork. I do think Coipel is doing a fine job with the
backgrounds, though, it's really his people I don't care for.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
SDelMonte
<benw...@earthlink.net> writes:
>> Wouldn't have worked. Peyer's a good scripter, but he's not a strong enough
>> plotter to have balanced everything in the book.
>
>He's uneven, but with a good editor he can turn in first-rate stuff. Ben
I still can't make up my mind about Tom. Sometimes he's a genius, sometimes
he's a dud, and sometimes he's just frustrating. I can't think of any writer
whose work I'm so familiar wth that I'm still so conflicted about.
Simon DelMonte
Yeechang Lee
> Yeah. You should have seen the reaction when the previous creative team
> announced they were sending half the team to the 20th century for an
> unspecified period of time. Think about what a small impact that really
> was on the overall longterm direction of the LSH. Yet the fans' reaction
> was termed a "bloodbath".
Sidne is too kind to mention it, of course, but the naysayers (and I
firmly include myself in that group) who were very vocal about our
doubts on the 20C storyline should, in retrospect, have been even more
vocal, considering the long-term decline the books entered the moment
the storyline began. It is very remarkable on just how sharp the
books were before the end of the (top notch) Emerald Eye storyline.
My verdict on the first two issues current storyline: the story isn't
bad at all, certainly better than I was fearing/expecting. I have no
objections to having the story start a month into it; it's certainly a
legitimate technique, one justified here.
The art is utterly, utterly execrable, and hearing Andy blurt that
Olivier could draw better than all of us is testament to neither our
nor Olivier's talents.
I don't want the books to be canceled. We would certainly lose the
semimonthly schedule, which has been a very good thing. Moreover, we
would lose an important bit of continuity in a book that has seen
relatively little of it the past decade. Right now, I find it hard to
believe the art will do anything toward raising the sales volume.
> Remember that many of us have been reading the Legion far longer than you
> probably have. And, quite likely, many of us will still be reading the
> Legion after you and Abnett and Coipel have moved on to other projects.
Amen, sister.
Yeechang "11.5-year Legion buyer, with the exception of much of v4
(though I've gone back and filled almost all of it in, as unreadable
as it was, along with as many back issues as I can afford" Lee
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/>
Sidne G. Ward
Wow! How great to see a post from you!
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Yeah. You should have seen the reaction when the previous creative team
>> announced they were sending half the team to the 20th century for an
>> unspecified period of time. Think about what a small impact that really
>> was on the overall longterm direction of the LSH. Yet the fans' reaction
>> was termed a "bloodbath".
>Sidne is too kind to mention it, of course, but the naysayers (and I
>firmly include myself in that group) who were very vocal about our
>doubts on the 20C storyline should, in retrospect, have been even more
>vocal, considering the long-term decline the books entered the moment
>the storyline began. It is very remarkable on just how sharp the
>books were before the end of the (top notch) Emerald Eye storyline.
One thing I probably should have mentioned is just how negative my own
reaction to the idea of an open-ended sojourn to the 20th century was. I
*hated* the idea, I really did feel that the 30th century background was
an important facet of the Legion and leaving that for an extended period
of time was a mistake. And I still believe that. I *did* buy the books
and read them, though, and certainly gave them a chance.
>My verdict on the first two issues current storyline: the story isn't
>bad at all, certainly better than I was fearing/expecting. I have no
>objections to having the story start a month into it; it's certainly a
>legitimate technique, one justified here.
One thing I find a little odd, having read 3 issues (including today's)
so far is that it appears that A&L are skipping around a little in time.
I don't know if that's a typical storytelling technique of theirs or not.
I find it a little disconcerting, but perhaps that's the point since the
Legionnaires have been thrown offbalance by recent events as well.
>The art is utterly, utterly execrable, and hearing Andy blurt that
>Olivier could draw better than all of us is testament to neither our
>nor Olivier's talents.
I'm certainly not a big fan of Coipel's art, but I did think the current
issue was a little better. In particular, there's a quite decent panel
with Imra towards the end (sorry, I don't have my copy with me). Didn't
she get the best shot last issue also? Maybe Coipel's a Saturn Girl fan.
If so, he at least has great taste in characters!
As far as whether Coipel can draw better than the average r.a.c.d.ler, I
don't think that's too relevant since the talent pool of available
artists doesn't consist of Coipel and posters to r.a.c.d.l. Of course he
can draw better than *me*. But no one in their right mind would hire me to
draw a comic book and as long as I stay in my right mind, I won't be
seeking work in that area.
>I don't want the books to be canceled. We would certainly lose the
>semimonthly schedule, which has been a very good thing. Moreover, we
>would lose an important bit of continuity in a book that has seen
>relatively little of it the past decade. Right now, I find it hard to
>believe the art will do anything toward raising the sales volume.
I don't want the books canceled either, although certainly we're losing
the semimonthly schedule. I don't think the art will do anything to
increase sales (at least not more than enough to offset the sales that'll
be likely lost due to the art). But maybe if it gets better quickly, it
won't hurt sales.
>> Remember that many of us have been reading the Legion far longer than you
>> probably have. And, quite likely, many of us will still be reading the
>> Legion after you and Abnett and Coipel have moved on to other projects.
>Amen, sister.
>Yeechang "11.5-year Legion buyer, with the exception of much of v4
>(though I've gone back and filled almost all of it in, as unreadable
>as it was, along with as many back issues as I can afford" Lee
At least people are talking about the books. Most of them cared enough to
buy them and try them. I think the time to worry will be if conversation
really dies off.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I really did feel that the 30th century background was
> an important facet of the Legion and leaving that for an extended period
> of time was a mistake.
How long a period of time would have worked for you? How does that compare
to previous 20th century trips? (Having read them as back issues, I don't
really have a sense of how long that lasted.)
I have really mixed emotions about this storyline myself. I think the
writers needed more direction, and I think a shorter stay would have been
better. Mostly, I'm disappointed that they only did one throwaway "Lost
Pages" on the cultural differences, because that was the part of the concept
I was most interested in.
> At least people are talking about the books. Most of them cared enough to
> buy them and try them. I think the time to worry will be if conversation
> really dies off.
It's already severely dropped here and on Legion-List. (Being afraid of
ticking off the writer again probably doesn't help. :) ) Most people I know
dropped them immediately after trying them, but that's not necessarily
representative.
Johanna
T. Troy McNemar
>> I really did feel that the 30th century background was
>> an important facet of the Legion and leaving that for an extended period
>> of time was a mistake.
>
>How long a period of time would have worked for you?
Six months would have been okay. Eight months at the outside if they'd
actually had something to say.
>How does that compare
>to previous 20th century trips?
To what previous trips to the 20th century are you referring? Most preboot
trips to the 20th century were over and done in 2-3 issues. TIMBER WOLF
was there for 5 issues. KARATE KID spent 15 bi-monthly issues in the 20th
century, but I doubt anyone will speak in favor of the series lasting that
long in that setting.
--
T. Troy McNemar Tr...@McNemar.com
"Ro dluow uoy ekil ot gniws no a rats?"
-Zatana Crosby
Favorite Comic of the Week: MAISON IKKOKU pt 9 #8
Runner-up: BLACK PANTHER v2 #14
http://www.McNemar.com
Dale Hicks
> sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward) wrote:
>
> > I really did feel that the 30th century background was
> > an important facet of the Legion and leaving that for an extended period
> > of time was a mistake.
>
> to previous 20th century trips? (Having read them as back issues, I don't
> really have a sense of how long that lasted.)
There wasn't much of a 20th century presence at all in the preboot,
unless I'm forgetting somthing. There was the Mordru 1st appearance,
which lasted two issues. I think Ultra Boy spent some time there (I
remember it being referred to in a later issue). Karate Kid's series
and the Cosmic Boy mini, but that doesn't really count. The Reflecto
jaunt to the past which lasted two issues I think. The team visited
Non-superbaby for a page or two one issue.
Nothing else comes to my mind. I think that the number of L* that
have appeared in the past are low, as the Mordru team was four(?)
and the Reflecto team was Blok, Dawny, Imra, Garth, and Phantom Girl,
I think.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Steve Reed
>[...] the Reflecto team was Blok, Dawny, Imra, Garth, and Phantom Girl,
>I think. [LSH v2 n280-282]
Also Karate Kid. Lana also showed up with her ring, so maybe that honorary
member should be counted.
"That's the kind of thinking that wins America's wars, isn't it, Major? ...
Oh, I forgot, you're losing a war now, aren't you?" -- Val, memorably mixing
up his 20th Century decades
Why didn't some characters, er, take "primitive" showers more often? ;)
--
Steve ... Grey...@LSH.org
The Dawnstar Aerie ... soon fully flying!
Suggestions, art, and fan fiction welcomed!
http://fly.to/dawnstar
Johanna Draper Carlson
> There wasn't much of a 20th century presence at all in the preboot,
> unless I'm forgetting somthing. There was the Mordru 1st appearance,
> which lasted two issues.
Yet was significant enough in the minds of fandom that
Luornu-crawling-through-the-tunnel made it into the Zero Hour flashback
spread. (I thought it was a pretty bad choice myself. Especially as a focal
point. Did we even see that image in the original story?)
> The Reflecto jaunt to the past which lasted two issues I think.
That's the most significant one, I think. At least, it's the one I always
remember. Was the comic monthly at that time?
> The team visited Non-superbaby for a page or two one issue.
They also visited Superman and Supergirl in a number of cameos. Early on, it
sometimes seemed like they had a regular shuttle. :)
And the Action Comics visit to the Pocket Universe Earth, right?
Would the 20th century visit have been more interesting as a separate
miniseries? It seems most people didn't have a problem with the Timber Wolf
or Cosmic Boy or Karate Kid series.
Johanna
Ben Weiss
> "Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> wrote:
> > There wasn't much of a 20th century presence at all in the preboot,
> > unless I'm forgetting somthing. There was the Mordru 1st appearance,
> > which lasted two issues.
>
> Yet was significant enough in the minds of fandom that
> Luornu-crawling-through-the-tunnel made it into the Zero Hour flashback
> spread. (I thought it was a pretty bad choice myself. Especially as a focal
> point. Did we even see that image in the original story?)
Yes, although it was only one panel.
> > The Reflecto jaunt to the past which lasted two issues I think.
>
> That's the most significant one, I think. At least, it's the one I always
> remember. Was the comic monthly at that time?
Yup.
> Would the 20th century visit have been more interesting as a separate
> miniseries? It seems most people didn't have a problem with the Timber Wolf
> or Cosmic Boy or Karate Kid series.
I think there's a qualitative difference between the loss of one Legionnaire to
the 20th and the loss of half the team. Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
T. Troy McNemar
>"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> wrote:
>> There wasn't much of a 20th century presence at all in the preboot,
>> unless I'm forgetting somthing. There was the Mordru 1st appearance,
>> which lasted two issues.
>
>Yet was significant enough in the minds of fandom that
>Luornu-crawling-through-the-tunnel made it into the Zero Hour flashback
>spread. (I thought it was a pretty bad choice myself. Especially as a focal
>point. Did we even see that image in the original story?)
Yes, we saw it in the original story.
It was a memorable enough panel that I recognized it instantly, but
memorable is obviously in the eye of the beholder.
Sidne G. Ward
>sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward) wrote:
>> I really did feel that the 30th century background was
>> an important facet of the Legion and leaving that for an extended period
>> of time was a mistake.
>How long a period of time would have worked for you?
I think 6 months would have been fine, even if I hadn't been thrilled
about the idea. I do believe if a definite ending had been set for the
story (even if the readers weren't told when it would end) would have
encouraged the creators to focus and think about what they wanted
to do and plan it out so that the story would have hung together a little
better and read more like a story arc with a point.
>How does that compare
>to previous 20th century trips? (Having read them as back issues, I don't
>really have a sense of how long that lasted.)
Lots of them lasted less than an issue. I can't think of any that lasted
anywhere near 6 months (except for Karate Kid's individual move, of
course.)
>I have really mixed emotions about this storyline myself. I think the
>writers needed more direction, and I think a shorter stay would have been
>better. Mostly, I'm disappointed that they only did one throwaway "Lost
>Pages" on the cultural differences, because that was the part of the concept
>I was most interested in.
I agree. I would have been interested in seeing more about the
differences between the 20th and 30th centuries, too. As it is, sometimes
the 30th century seems more as if it's about 100 years in the future from
the 20th century DCU than 1000 years. Characters adapt too easily while
time traveling in the DCU in general (not just the Legion).
>> At least people are talking about the books. Most of them cared enough to
>> buy them and try them. I think the time to worry will be if conversation
>> really dies off.
>It's already severely dropped here and on Legion-List. (Being afraid of
>ticking off the writer again probably doesn't help. :) ) Most people I know
>dropped them immediately after trying them, but that's not necessarily
>representative.
It has dropped here, but it's hard to tell how much. This week's not a
good sample since due to the US holiday a lot of people are offline. I'm
not sure too many people are not posting because they're worried about
ticking off the writer, although they may be a little more careful about
what they post... I think it's possible that the level of discussion
about the current books may remain higher even after a few more isssues
than it was right before the creative team changed. At least as what's
going on is controversial. Nothing worse than the apathy that many Legion
fans were experiencing a few months ago.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Sidne G. Ward
>"Dale Hicks" <dgh...@bellSPAMLESSsouth.net> wrote:
>> There wasn't much of a 20th century presence at all in the preboot,
>> unless I'm forgetting somthing. There was the Mordru 1st appearance,
>> which lasted two issues.
>Yet was significant enough in the minds of fandom that
>Luornu-crawling-through-the-tunnel made it into the Zero Hour flashback
>spread. (I thought it was a pretty bad choice myself. Especially as a focal
>point. Did we even see that image in the original story?)
Yes. And I remembered it years later when I saw it in the ZH issue. Poor
Lu!
>> The team visited Non-superbaby for a page or two one issue.
>They also visited Superman and Supergirl in a number of cameos. Early on, it
>sometimes seemed like they had a regular shuttle. :)
And Lois and Jimmy. They used to jump in the Time Bubble to help 20th
century friends with their love lives, appear in parades, and just visit.
>Would the 20th century visit have been more interesting as a separate
>miniseries? It seems most people didn't have a problem with the Timber Wolf
>or Cosmic Boy or Karate Kid series.
For one or two Legionnaires? I don't think anyone would have screamed
about that. The Valor series was fairly well received, I think. I don't
know what the reaction at the time was to Tinya showing up in L.E.G.I.O.N.
But sending half the Legion off to the 20th century for more than a few
months just didn't work for a lot of fans.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I do believe if a definite ending had been set for the
> story (even if the readers weren't told when it would end) would have
> encouraged the creators to focus and think about what they wanted
> to do and plan it out so that the story would have hung together a little
> better and read more like a story arc with a point.
There was a definite end -- the teams reunite. I'm assuming you mean more
than that. :)
Yeah, there were too many stand-alones that could have taken place in the
30th century. But a lot of plans fell through on that, too.
> As it is, sometimes
> the 30th century seems more as if it's about 100 years in the future from
> the 20th century DCU than 1000 years. Characters adapt too easily while
> time traveling in the DCU in general (not just the Legion).
Definitely. The early ideas of the future were cheesy, but at least they
were trying! Certain things nowadays just seem tossed in without anyone
thinking through the ramifications.
> not sure too many people are not posting because they're worried about
> ticking off the writer, although they may be a little more careful about
> what they post...
I don't think more care was needed; I think Andy overreacted. And when a pro
demonstrates that they don't "get" Usenet, I quit talking about their work
rather than risking more misunderstandings. Maybe I'm the only one who
thinks that way.
> At least as what's going on is controversial.
And hey, Wizard likes it now! Can't get better than that! :)
Johanna
Johanna Draper Carlson
>> Luornu-crawling-through-the-tunnel made it into the Zero Hour flashback
>> spread. (I thought it was a pretty bad choice myself. Especially as a focal
>> point. Did we even see that image in the original story?)
>
> Yes, although it was only one panel.
Shows how much impact that story, read in back issues, meant to me. :)
> I think there's a qualitative difference between the loss of one Legionnaire
> to the 20th and the loss of half the team.
Oh, certainly. And that loss didn't really get followed up on enough,
unfortunately.
Johanna
Bill Roper
>good sample since due to the US holiday a lot of people are offline. I'm
>ticking off the writer, although they may be a little more careful about
>what they post...
I figured I'd post when I had something new to say...
--
Bill Roper, ro...@xnet.com
Bill Roper
>> There wasn't much of a 20th century presence at all in the preboot,
>> unless I'm forgetting somthing. There was the Mordru 1st appearance,
>> which lasted two issues.
>
>Yet was significant enough in the minds of fandom that
>spread. (I thought it was a pretty bad choice myself. Especially as a focal
>point. Did we even see that image in the original story?)
Yup. She'd just tried to get Superboy to walk her home because it was
dangerous out and he told her (being a clueless male) that she could take
the tunnel home and be perfectly safe. It was a *wonderful* bit.
--
Bill Roper, ro...@xnet.com
Sidne G. Ward
>sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward) wrote:
>> I do believe if a definite ending had been set for the
>> story (even if the readers weren't told when it would end) would have
>> encouraged the creators to focus and think about what they wanted
>> to do and plan it out so that the story would have hung together a little
>> better and read more like a story arc with a point.
>There was a definite end -- the teams reunite. I'm assuming you mean more
>than that. :)
Well, even *I* was assuming that was going to happen *eventually*. But I
mean that if the creators had known that the story was going to wrap up in
6 months (or even in 12 months) that perhaps they would have planned out
the story arc a little better. As it was it seemed like a bunch of
unrelated stuff happened and then towards the end they were just treading
water waiting until the anniversary issue.
>Yeah, there were too many stand-alones that could have taken place in the
>30th century. But a lot of plans fell through on that, too.
I'm sure it did. If better plans had been made in advance with more
focus, maybe that wouldn't have happened.
>> As it is, sometimes
>> the 30th century seems more as if it's about 100 years in the future from
>> the 20th century DCU than 1000 years. Characters adapt too easily while
>> time traveling in the DCU in general (not just the Legion).
>Definitely. The early ideas of the future were cheesy, but at least they
>were trying! Certain things nowadays just seem tossed in without anyone
>thinking through the ramifications.
And the ramifications are part of what should be interesting about the
Legion.
>> not sure too many people are not posting because they're worried about
>> ticking off the writer, although they may be a little more careful about
>> what they post...
>I don't think more care was needed; I think Andy overreacted. And when a pro
>demonstrates that they don't "get" Usenet, I quit talking about their work
>rather than risking more misunderstandings. Maybe I'm the only one who
>thinks that way.
I'm not saying more care was needed and I agree Andy overreacted. But I
know *I've* been more careful about what I post because of his reaction.
So you're not the only one who changes their posting style.
>> At least as what's going on is controversial.
>And hey, Wizard likes it now! Can't get better than that! :)
Do they like the art, too? Actually, I think Wizard saying positive
things about the book is good news. I hadn't heard that yet.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@Primenet.com
Sidne G. Ward
>In article <81k8ln$mn9$1...@nnrp03.primenet.com>,
>Sidne G. Ward <sw...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>>It has dropped here, but it's hard to tell how much. This week's not a
>>good sample since due to the US holiday a lot of people are offline. I'm
>>not sure too many people are not posting because they're worried about
>>ticking off the writer, although they may be a little more careful about
>>what they post...
>I figured I'd post when I had something new to say...
And that's sort of my point. It's bad news if people don't have anything
new to say (positive or negative).
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> If better plans had been made in advance with more
> focus, maybe that wouldn't have happened.
You can't always force people to follow through on their promises.
> *I've* been more careful about what I post because of his reaction.
Yeah, but it's a shame it had to happen out of fear instead of respect.
> Do they like the art, too? Actually, I think Wizard saying positive
> things about the book is good news. I hadn't heard that yet.
Here's what they said, in their Thumbs-Up section:
"The current Legion of the Damned storyline has us hooked. Massive
devastation. Legionnaires turning on one another. Death. Even non-Legion
fans should take note as the book (and the Legion!) is torn apart in
preparation for the 12-issue Legion Lost mini-series."
No art comments. And I wouldn't consider the book being plugged THAT way
good news. Although it is almost too perfect a stereotypical Wizard comment.
:)
Johanna
Sidne G. Ward
>sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward) wrote:
>> If better plans had been made in advance with more
>> focus, maybe that wouldn't have happened.
>You can't always force people to follow through on their promises.
Of course. I'm thinking more along the lines that the writers
*themselves* might have done things differently if they'd known in advance
when they were wrapping things up and planned out a couple of story arcs
that relied on the 20th century setting.
Now, they very well *might* have done this, but my impression (from way
outside :), is that they had some *hopes* about what they might do but
didn't have stuff (e.g.s, which other characters the Legion would visit,
when the Legion would return to the 30th) nailed down very well before
going to the 20th century.
>> *I've* been more careful about what I post because of his reaction.
>Yeah, but it's a shame it had to happen out of fear instead of respect.
That's just me, though. I *really* hate to offend anyone or hurt their
feelings (creators or not).
>> Do they like the art, too? Actually, I think Wizard saying positive
>> things about the book is good news. I hadn't heard that yet.
>Here's what they said, in their Thumbs-Up section:
>"The current Legion of the Damned storyline has us hooked. Massive
>devastation. Legionnaires turning on one another. Death. Even non-Legion
>fans should take note as the book (and the Legion!) is torn apart in
>preparation for the 12-issue Legion Lost mini-series."
>No art comments. And I wouldn't consider the book being plugged THAT way
>good news. Although it is almost too perfect a stereotypical Wizard comment.
>:)
Hmm. Unfortunately, I can't imagine even the Wizard faithful picking up
the Legion books based on *that* comment. Oh well, at least Wizard is
*talking* about the books.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> I'm thinking more along the lines that the writers
> *themselves* might have done things differently if they'd known in advance
> when they were wrapping things up and planned out a couple of story arcs
> that relied on the 20th century setting.
What makes you think that they didn't?
As another note on the subject, I suspect that if they didn't do some kind
of event (like reuniting the team after 8 months), then they wouldn't have
been able to do a 100-page giant, and I thought that was VERY cool.
> Hmm. Unfortunately, I can't imagine even the Wizard faithful picking up
> the Legion books based on *that* comment.
Yeah, me neither.
> at least Wizard is *talking* about the books.
Strangely enough, they also used the Legion as an example of a popular
franchise being completely revamped in their most recent solicitation (along
with Superman, X-Men, and Batman).
Johanna
Sidne G. Ward
>sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward) wrote:
>> I'm thinking more along the lines that the writers
>> *themselves* might have done things differently if they'd known in advance
>> when they were wrapping things up and planned out a couple of story arcs
>> that relied on the 20th century setting.
>What makes you think that they didn't?
After the fact, it appears that they didn't. Or, at least, that some of
the plans fell through.
>As another note on the subject, I suspect that if they didn't do some kind
>of event (like reuniting the team after 8 months), then they wouldn't have
>been able to do a 100-page giant, and I thought that was VERY cool.
I did like the giant, of course. Too bad there has to be an "event" to
warrant one.
>> at least Wizard is *talking* about the books.
>Strangely enough, they also used the Legion as an example of a popular
>franchise being completely revamped in their most recent solicitation (along
>with Superman, X-Men, and Batman).
It's not even much of a franchise.
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
ANDY LANGO
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <joha...@mindspring.com> wrote that:
sw...@primenet.com (Sidne G. Ward) wrote:
> *I've* been more careful about what I post because of his reaction.
Yeah, but it's a shame it had to happen out of fear instead of respect.
I wasn't after respect, Johanna, just a hint of empathy to the fact that I
might be reading what you're writing.
Sorry to have given you a fright.
Maybe I should have just shut up and let it all wash over me, after all, as you
keep pointing out, this is a FANS forum. It's a shame there's no room for the
creators to have an opinion and chip in their two cents.
Oh well, back to the lonely life of a hermit, chained to the drawing board...
Sigh*
Andy
T-i-C
John Northey
>Maybe I should have just shut up and let it all wash over me, after all, as you
>keep pointing out, this is a FANS forum. It's a shame there's no room for the
>creators to have an opinion and chip in their two cents.
Oh, there is lots of room for that. It just requires creators to have
a very thick skin. In rec.arts.comics.misc you can find Kurt Busiek,
Christopher Priest, Brian Bendis, and a few others who post regularly.
They have been there long enough that few snippers shoot at them now,
but when strong negative comments show up they deal with it. Others
have been killed off in the first wave (I think Peter David was one of
those, before my time though so I'm not positive) and now view
internet fans as a curse.
Ah well. In the end people will say what they will say. If you join
in great, if not we'll deal with it (no pro has stayed in this group
for long as LSH fans can be very overwhelming).
John Northey.
Crazy Canadian and creator of the Fans of Teri Sue Wood site.
http://www.sentex.net/~jnorthey/TSW
My original art collection can be seen at
http://www.monsterfighters.com/don/Northey.html
David J. Snyder
John Northey <jnor...@SPAMISEVILsentex.net> wrote:
>but when strong negative comments show up they deal with it. Others
>have been killed off in the first wave (I think Peter David was one of
>those, before my time though so I'm not positive) and now view
PAD hasn't been killed off, he's still around regularly.
-Dave
T. Troy McNemar
>Maybe I should have just shut up and let it all wash over me, after all, as you
>keep pointing out, this is a FANS forum. It's a shame there's no room for the
>creators to have an opinion and chip in their two cents.
You're welcome here. There's plenty of room for you here. We just hope
you'll understand that not everyone likes your work on the book and that
you won't win any fans by trying to shout the detractors down.
ANDY LANGO
wrote:
>You're welcome here. There's plenty of room for you here. We just hope
>you'll understand that not everyone likes your work on the book and that
>you won't win any fans by trying to shout the detractors down.
Troy, I wasn't shouting anyone down. I merely stated my reaction to the
comments made in the same tone.
Like I said before: if people are going to post strong reactions then what do
they expect to get back in return?- seems to me it's one rule for you guys
another for me.
Let's play on an even field.
I'm here in the kitchen for the duration, no matter how hot it gets!
Andy
"Frying tonight!"
Amos Keppler
I'm quite enjoying '''"damned". My beef with it is that it is too
short. Instead of four issues it should have been at least twelve, like
(legion lost). And the build up should have been somewhat longer, too,
even if there is some use in "the bolt from the blue concept".
It *is* some of the same problem as with "the five year absence"
storyline. It's only a month this time (thank the spirits), but still it
leaves a lot to be desired.
I like the new artist, too, even if I think the old ones, should have
been given a chance to change their ways...
Amos
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
< My virtual, wilderness community address is: >
< http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/6010/ >
< My address at midnight: >
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/ ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
Feel the heat of Firewind
http://w1.2561.telia.com/~u256100087/firewind.html
«We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well
that Death will tremble to take us»!
Charles Bukowski
T. Troy McNemar
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, T. Troy McNemar <Tr...@McNemar.com>
>wrote:
>>You're welcome here. There's plenty of room for you here. We just hope
>>you'll understand that not everyone likes your work on the book and that
>>you won't win any fans by trying to shout the detractors down.
>
>Troy, I wasn't shouting anyone down. I merely stated my reaction to the
>comments made in the same tone.
>Like I said before: if people are going to post strong reactions then what do
>they expect to get back in return?- seems to me it's one rule for you guys
>another for me.
>Let's play on an even field.
You misunderstand if you think I'm suggesting otherwise. You can post in
whatever tone you want, however you want, and whenever you want.
And it is an even playing field. I also don't win any fans when I try to
shout down other people.
>I'm here in the kitchen for the duration, no matter how hot it gets!
Good deal.
So, as long as you're here, what's Thunder's current status with the team?
Does she have glowing statues in her bedroom that alert her to come to the
30th century when she's needed?
--
T. Troy McNemar Tr...@McNemar.com
"Gniliah seicneuqerf nepo, Niatpac."
-Lt. Zatana Uhura
Favorite Comic of the Week: YOUNG JUSTICE #17
Runner-up: BIRDS OF PREY #14
http://www.McNemar.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
>seems to me it's one rule for you guys another for me.
Usenet doesn't have much tolerance for people who seem to be making
unsupported assertions, insulting people who disagree with them, and the
like. Does it become a game of "but he started it"? Sure. But someone's got
to be willing to stop it as well.
I'm sorry that you feel that you've gotten a rough introduction. I doubt
that this will be any consolation, but it's less than what would have
happened to "just" a fan. Any inequality here is actually a benefit to you,
although I know it doesn't feel that way.
If you want to stick around, welcome.
Johanna
Dale Hicks
And he's a very bad example to use, as PAD knew what USENET was
before I did. He was posting back in '93, before I knew who he
was. The rule then was if a guy had the same name as an artist,
it wasn't the artist (e.g. Art Adams), but if he had the same
name as a writer, it was a writer.
He's also not one to shy away from reaction, as he goes toe-to-toe
with people that annoy him. One hunter, immortalized in a YOUNG
JUSTICE comic, got blasted by him because he was blaming PAD for
a colorists' error.
Mark Waid is the classic example of someone who martyred himself
in the way Andy's doing. Although Ron Boyd is one that has a more
personal relation with me.
--
Cranial Crusader dgh...@bellsouth.net
Sidne G. Ward
>Previously on rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh, T. Troy McNemar <Tr...@McNemar.com>
>wrote:
>>You're welcome here. There's plenty of room for you here. We just hope
>>you'll understand that not everyone likes your work on the book and that
>>you won't win any fans by trying to shout the detractors down.
>Troy, I wasn't shouting anyone down. I merely stated my reaction to the
>comments made in the same tone.
Remember that tone can be subjective online. What you read as hostile may
have been meant by the poster as assertive. This can go both ways, BTW.
It's certainly possible that some readers here read your posts as more
negative than you meant as well.
>Like I said before: if people are going to post strong reactions then what do
>they expect to get back in return?- seems to me it's one rule for you guys
>another for me.
Feel free to react strongly. The rules really are the same for both
sides. Posters to r.a.c.d.l (and most other usenet groups, for that
matter) develop reputations over time. Most longtime posters have
developed positive reputations (at least in this group). Readers listen
to them. But anyone has the ability to develop the same kind of
reputation by sticking around and participating regularly.
>Let's play on an even field.
Considering the fact that you're a pro and most of the other posters in
this group are not, the playing field's about as level as it gets. If
you spend a little more time on r.a.c.d.l and get used to how the
conversation flows here as well, different posters' personalities, etc.
you'll feel a little more comfortable, I think. This goes for *anyone*
new to r.a.c.d.l.
>I'm here in the kitchen for the duration, no matter how hot it gets!
Great!
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
John Northey
>Mark Waid is the classic example of someone who martyred himself
>in the way Andy's doing. Although Ron Boyd is one that has a more
>personal relation with me.
Ah. It must've been Waid I was thinking of, not PAD. Ah well, I've
been wrong before. Boyd blew up here real quick. He can be a good
guy but really fell apart here fast (under 1 day iirc).
Oh, btw, put me on the list of people who liked part 3 of LotD after
being lukewarm for #1 and so-so about #2. I am curious how the
reorder numbers are for it thus far though as those would be a good
indicator how well it is being received.
Sidne G. Ward
>Ah well. In the end people will say what they will say. If you join
>in great, if not we'll deal with it (no pro has stayed in this group
>for long as LSH fans can be very overwhelming).
Although I think a number of current (and former) LSH creators lurk here
occasionally.
Roger Stern is a good example of someone who doesn't care much for
r.a.c.d.l, though he has participated in other r.a.c.* groups. He's a
great guy. I had dinner with him and his wife Carmela Merlo on Saturday
night (as well as a few other people) at Mid-Ohio-Con. A lot of people
find it's easier to get along with LSH fans in person than on r.a.c.d.l.
(And some try to avoid all contact with LSH fans :).
Sidne Gail Ward
sw...@primenet.com
John Northey
>r.a.c.d.l, though he has participated in other r.a.c.* groups. He's a
>great guy. I had dinner with him and his wife Carmela Merlo on Saturday
>night (as well as a few other people) at Mid-Ohio-Con. A lot of people
>find it's easier to get along with LSH fans in person than on r.a.c.d.l.
>(And some try to avoid all contact with LSH fans :).
I can vouch for Stern as a nice guy. Sat next to him at a Mid-Ohio
dinner last year and he asked me if I read anything he currently was
doing and the only title I was buying was LSH. Then I offhandly
mentioned I dropped Avengers recently totally forgetting he was
co-writing (or scripting or something) it at the time. Doh! Luckly
he is a good enough guy to not get defensive or anything. Hard to
talk with creators sometimes as it feels funny telling someone 'no, I
don't feel the job you are doing is good enough to make me buy it'.
Ah well. For those who cannot hit the con scene this is a great way
to at least get a feel for the people who do the comics we all enjoy
so much. Some are jerks, but the majority are good people. Speaking
of cons, are any members of the new LSH team going to come to some of
the US ones next year? Maybe even a Canadian one? Hey, I can hope.
ANDY LANGO
burn!
Andy, but you can call me Joan or Ms d'Arc
ANDY LANGO
early in the year but I don't know if that will tie in with a con or not.
I, for one, am always interested in what you guys have to say and what you
think about what we're doing. I just don't have to agree with it, end of story.
Andy
ANDY LANGO
>wrote:
>So, as long as you're here, what's Thunder's current status with the <team?
>Does she have glowing statues in her bedroom that alert her to come to <the
30th century when she's needed?
Troy, I don't want to ruin any plot surprises but Thunder's status will be more
than covered in Legionnaires #81, page 19 to be precise!
And I reckon she's got this big old throne in her bedroom with a bloody great
lump of concrete hanging over it that falls on her head when ever she's needed!
No, hang on, that's a kinda one-off sort of warning system, D'OH!
Andy
Ben Weiss
> I'm here in the kitchen for the duration, no matter how hot it gets!
EEEEEEXcellent... [licks chops];-)
Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
Ben Weiss
> Ah. It must've been Waid I was thinking of, not PAD. Ah well, I've
> been wrong before. Boyd blew up here real quick. He can be a good
> guy but really fell apart here fast (under 1 day iirc).
Ron was a semi-regular poster here for quite a while...much more than a
day. He did bristle at criticism a bit, but also would explain
things--like that his sometimes-criticized tendency toward a 2D,
cartoonish inking style was a deliberate stylistic choice. Ben
eleme...@lsh.org
Michael Alan Chary
Johanna Draper Carlson <joha...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>unsupported assertions, insulting people who disagree with them, and the
>like.
Find me any community anywhere on Earth that *does* have a high toplerance
for that sort of thing.
--
In memoriam Walter Payton, 1954-1999, the greatest Bear of all time.
"Being the fastest? I wasn't. Being the strongest? I wasn't. Being the biggest?
I wasn't. I had something that nobody else had. I think I was the smartest."
-- Sweetness