Gail Simone on Legion
Johanna Draper Carlson
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/messages.jsp?topic=44354447&board=legi
on
Any idea who her artist might be? Contrary to Wizard, it's not John
Byrne (thank goodness).
--
Johanna Draper Carlson
Reviews of Comics Worth Reading -- http://www.comicsworthreading.com
Newly updated: Hawaiian Dick is the newest Comic Worth Reading.
January Previews now available!
Michael Pastor
"Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote in
message news:johannaNOSPAM-8E3...@news.fu-berlin.de...
> Gail just confirmed it -- she's doing a 4-issue story.
>
> http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/messages.jsp?topic=44354447&board=legi
> on
>
> Any idea who her artist might be? Contrary to Wizard, it's not John
> Byrne (thank goodness).
>
WOO HOO!
The news got me to thinking: how many women writers (and artists) have ever
been involved with the Legion?
Off the top of my head, the three writers I think of are Mindy Newell
(scripting Levitz' plots on Tales of the Legion), Mary Bierbaum, and now
Gail; and on the artists' side, I could only think of Colleen Doran for
pencils. I have to presume that Adrienne Roy did some coloring at SOME
point: she was on practically every book DC produced in the 80s ;-)
michael j pastor
Johanna Draper Carlson
> The news got me to thinking: how many women writers (and artists) have ever
> been involved with the Legion?
>
> Off the top of my head, the three writers I think of are Mindy Newell
> (scripting Levitz' plots on Tales of the Legion), Mary Bierbaum, and now
> Gail;
Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
Good question.
Michael Pastor
> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The news got me to thinking: how many women writers (and artists) have
ever
> > been involved with the Legion?
> >
> > Off the top of my head, the three writers I think of are Mindy Newell
> > (scripting Levitz' plots on Tales of the Legion), Mary Bierbaum, and now
> > Gail;
>
> Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
>
> Good question.
>
What did she do? and when?
michael j pastor
Johanna Draper Carlson
> "Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote
> >
>
Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her husband
Roger Stern on his run.
Jim Caldwell
Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Johanna Draper Carlson" <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote
> > >
> > > Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
> >
> > What did she do? and when?
>
> Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her husband
> Roger Stern on his run.
Who can you talk to that says she didn't?
--
Jim Caldwell
"An ear -- In the fireplace!"
Jason Fliegel
> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Johanna Draper Carlson"
>><johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote
>> >
>> > Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
>>
>> What did she do? and when?
>
>Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her husband
>Roger Stern on his run.
If only you knew somebody who could shed some light on what went on behind the
scenes during the Stern run. Like an editor, for example.
Since I used to know a woman named Terry Shoemaker, I always have to remind
myself that the one involved with the Legion was a man.
Jason Fliegel
Que...@aol.com
Johanna Draper Carlson
> Johanna Draper Carlson <johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote:
>
> > Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her husband
> > Roger Stern on his run.
>
> Who can you talk to that says she didn't?
The "who you talk to" part was in reference to the slashed choice,
capturing a range of the extent of her involvement.
Michael Alan Chary
Yeah, there's a good idea, let's try and get someone who thought he hired
Roger Stern to admit he paid for scripts by someone else. (I don't mean to
imply anythiong other than that we won't get a straight answer...)
--
Do they still play the blues in Chicago when baseball season rolls around/When
the snow melts away do the Cubbies still play in their ivy covered burial mound
When I was a boy they were my pride and joy, but now they only bring fatigue to
the land of the free the home of the brave and the doormat of the Nat'l League.
Jason Fliegel
>In article <20031231020420...@mb-m10.aol.com>,
>Jason Fliegel <que...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Johanna Draper Carlson (johann...@comicsworthreading.com) wrote:
>>
>>> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "Johanna Draper Carlson"
>>>><johann...@comicsworthreading.com> wrote
>>>> >
>>>> > Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
>>>>
>>>> What did she do? and when?
>>>
>>>Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her
>>>husband Roger Stern on his run.
>>
>>If only you knew somebody who could shed some light on what went
>>on behind the scenes during the Stern run. Like an editor, for
>>example.
>>
>Yeah, there's a good idea, let's try and get someone who thought he
>hired Roger Stern to admit he paid for scripts by someone else. (I don't
>mean to imply anythiong other than that we won't get a straight
>answer...)
>
If we fans could figure out that Roger Stern's run on Legionnaires seemed
atypical of his work, and if we heard the rumors of Carmela Merlo's
involvement, then I've always assumed that KC Carlson was 1) smart enough to
figure that out too, and 2) investigate to see what the hell was up. Since the
Stern name stayed on the book, I can only assume KC was satisfied that Stern's
involvement with the book was sufficient to justify crediting him as an author.
Of course, it's possible that at that point, Stern may have had enough clout
with guys like Carlin so that he could pressure KC to keep Stern's name on the
book with Merlo writing, but why wouldn't he just use his clout to add Merlo to
the credits?
Anyway, the official story was always that Merlo was Stern's writing assistant,
so unless one of the principles says otherwise, I assume that's what happened.
But when the spouse of one of the principles hints that there's something more,
enquiring minds want to know.
Jason Fliegel
Que...@aol.com
Jason Fliegel
>The news got me to thinking: how many women writers (and artists)
>have ever been involved with the Legion?
While she wasn't a writer or an artist (agt least, not a Legion writer or
artist), we shouldn't forget Karen Berger, whose importance to the Legion in
the 1980s cannot be overstated.
Jason Fliegel
Que...@aol.com
Michael Pastor
"Jason Fliegel" <que...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040102102526...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Actually, when I started my list I was going to include her, but I forgot by
the end of the paragraph as I tried to remember colorists and other creative
types.
Did Karen Berger ever write or draw? Or has she always been an editor?
michael j pastor
Michael Alan Chary
Nonsense. She never manufactured any of the paper, for instance.
Michael Alan Chary
Jason Fliegel <que...@aol.com> wrote:
>Mike Chary (mch...@panix.com) wrote:
>>Jason Fliegel <que...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>If only you knew somebody who could shed some light on what went
>>>on behind the scenes during the Stern run. Like an editor, for
>>>example.
>>>
>>Yeah, there's a good idea, let's try and get someone who thought he
>>hired Roger Stern to admit he paid for scripts by someone else. (I don't
>>mean to imply anythiong other than that we won't get a straight
>>answer...)
>>
>
>If we fans could figure out that Roger Stern's run on Legionnaires seemed
>atypical of his work, and if we heard the rumors of Carmela Merlo's
>involvement, then I've always assumed that KC Carlson was 1) smart enough to
>figure that out too, and 2) investigate to see what the hell was up. Since the
>Stern name stayed on the book, I can only assume KC was satisfied that Stern's
>involvement with the book was sufficient to justify crediting him as an author.
> Of course, it's possible that at that point, Stern may have had enough clout
>with guys like Carlin so that he could pressure KC to keep Stern's name on the
>book with Merlo writing, but why wouldn't he just use his clout to add Merlo to
>the credits?
>
>Anyway, the official story was always that Merlo was Stern's writing assistant,
>so unless one of the principles says otherwise, I assume that's what happened.
>But when the spouse of one of the principles hints that there's something more,
>enquiring minds want to know.
>
Come, now, counsel, there's also the issue of how much money is involved.
A semi-legendary writer like Roger Stern might very well command more
money than his wife. (Who would you want singing a concert, John Lennon or
Yoko Ono. Even today, I'd pick John :))
Here we might have specific perfomance damages...
Jason Fliegel
>In article <20040101183837...@mb-m29.aol.com>,
>Jason Fliegel <que...@aol.com> wrote:
>>If we fans could figure out that Roger Stern's run on Legionnaires
>>seemed atypical of his work, and if we heard the rumors of Carmela
>>Merlo's involvement, then I've always assumed that KC Carlson was
>>1) smart enough to figure that out too, and 2) investigate to see what
>>the hell was up. Since the Stern name stayed on the book, I can
>>only assume KC was satisfied that Stern's involvement with the book
>>was sufficient to justify crediting him as an author.
>>Of course, it's possible that at that point, Stern may have had enough
>>clout with guys like Carlin so that he could pressure KC to keep
>>Stern's name on the book with Merlo writing, but why wouldn't he
>>just use his clout to add Merlo to the credits?
>>
>>Anyway, the official story was always that Merlo was Stern's writing
>>assistant, so unless one of the principles says otherwise, I assume
>>that's what happened.
>>
>>But when the spouse of one of the principles hints that there's
>>something more, enquiring minds want to know.
>>
>
>Come, now, counsel, there's also the issue of how much money is
>involved. A semi-legendary writer like Roger Stern might very well
>command more money than his wife. (Who would you want singing a
>concert, John Lennon or Yoko Ono. Even today, I'd pick John :))
>
>Here we might have specific perfomance damages...
All the more reason I would expect a diligent and capable editor to
investigate. (So we can assume Mike McAvennie never investigated. But I
digress ...). If DC was paying Stern rates for Merlo work product, then it had
a possible lawsuit on its hands. Two, actually -- the one where it sues Stern
and Merlo for the excess compensation, and the one where it gets named as a
defendant in the class action suit filed by retailers and readers who bought
the books thinking they were written by Stern when they were really written by
Merlo.
I don't knwo exactly who was doing what during the putative Stern run on
Legionnaires, but I'm willing to bet someone on editorial staff at DC did.
Jason Fliegel
Que...@aol.com
Gail Simone
> Gail just confirmed it -- she's doing a 4-issue story.
>
> http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/messages.jsp?topic=44354447&board=legi
> on
>
> Any idea who her artist might be? Contrary to Wizard, it's not John
> Byrne (thank goodness).
Yahoo (about Legion, not about John not doing the art...love John's
work, and his recent JLA stuff is killer)!
I think readers will enjoy this story. One thing I did NOT want to do
was re-write a classic Legion story. We're considering this a Legion
movie, in a way, big and loud and fun with some cool scary weirdos.
AND a character will appear who may have a big effect on the Legion in
the future.
FUN!
Gail
Brian Doyle
"Gail Simone" <gai...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:51dcce69.04010...@posting.google.com...
> I think readers will enjoy this story. One thing I did NOT want to do
> was re-write a classic Legion story.
Are you allowed to not do that these days? :)
> We're considering this a Legion
> movie, in a way, big and loud and fun with some cool scary weirdos.
So fans are getting cameo parts, eh? :)
> AND a character will appear who may have a big effect on the Legion in
> the future.
>
> FUN!
Promise me THAT in the Legion, and I'm there!
Yeechang Lee
> Off the top of my head, the three writers I think of are Mindy Newell
> (scripting Levitz' plots on Tales of the Legion),
Newell took over the plotting as well by the end of the original
stories' run in _Tales_.
Actually, that whole first year has some underappreciated and nearly
forgotten stuff, starting with a charming three-parter with Sun Boy,
Brainy, and (what would turn out to be the last pre-Crisis appearance
of) Supergirl.
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://www.ylee.org/blog/> PERTH ----> *
02:19:02 up 12 days, 2:41, 21 users, load average: 3.12, 4.28, 4.37
194 processes: 186 sleeping, 7 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 37.4% user 7.8% system 54.5% nice 0.0% iowait 0.0% idle
Yeechang Lee
> >Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her
> >husband Roger Stern on his run.
>
> If only you knew somebody who could shed some light on what went on
> behind the scenes during the Stern run. Like an editor, for
> example.
No comment on the above, other than to say that Carmela's involvement
would presumably explain Roger Stern, the master _Avengers_ writer,
suddenly giving the inhabitants of another team book stupendously
wordy dialogues.
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://www.ylee.org/blog/> PERTH ----> *
02:24:01 up 12 days, 2:46, 21 users, load average: 2.36, 4.07, 4.31
194 processes: 189 sleeping, 4 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped
Brian Doyle
"Yeechang Lee" <yl...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbvfqc...@pobox.com...
> Michael Pastor <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Off the top of my head, the three writers I think of are Mindy Newell
> > (scripting Levitz' plots on Tales of the Legion),
>
> Newell took over the plotting as well by the end of the original
> stories' run in _Tales_.
>
> Actually, that whole first year has some underappreciated and nearly
> forgotten stuff, starting with a charming three-parter with Sun Boy,
> Brainy, and (what would turn out to be the last pre-Crisis appearance
> of) Supergirl.
They were fun, though any story which featured the hugely irritating Comet
Queen was not a good thing, IMHO.
Michael Alan Chary
Assuming that situation, I'd say DC would be better off suing for Stern
written scripts under equity, myself. New York recognizes specific
performance as a remedy on occasion.
The second situation, well, all the more reason for the principles to lie.
>I don't knwo exactly who was doing what during the putative Stern run on
>Legionnaires, but I'm willing to bet someone on editorial staff at DC did.
And what possible reason could thedy have for telling us the truth if said
truth did not reflect well upon them?
George Grattan
Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
> "Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The news got me to thinking: how many women writers (and artists) have ever
>>been involved with the Legion?
>>
>>Off the top of my head, the three writers I think of are Mindy Newell
>>(scripting Levitz' plots on Tales of the Legion), Mary Bierbaum, and now
>>Gail;
>
>
> Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
(Didn't Carmela Merlo eventually get an "assisted by" credit or
somesuch? ISTR seeing her name in the credits at some stage later in
Stern's run...)
While she neither wrote nor drew, I think Karen Berger's influence on
the Legion is always worth remembering. While Levitz took the editorial
reins himself fairly quickly, Berger was the one on hand who helped
first Levitz and Broderick and then Levitz and Giffen get the juices
flowing for probably the best Legion period that's ever seen print.
Sure, maybe all she did was get out of the way of the talent, but as
we've all seen too often in this business, that's a vital editorial
skill, and not all of them have it. When I look back on my personal
favorite era in Legion history, I think of Berger as a godmother to it,
at least, if not as a midwife or parent.
Great news about Gail coming on board for an arc, too! Two words:
Matter-Eater Lad. (Or is that three?) :-)
--
-------
Shalom, Peace, Salaam
George
matr1x
> Don't forget Carmela Merlo, uncredited.
well I certainly TRIED, thank you very much for reminding me of that horrid
run, Johanna. Must.. try to block out bad memories.
On their way out I'd like to thank DnA for mostly dealing with every problem
I had with the legion before they took it over. Granted the current
storyline is overlong and uninteresting, but still better than that dreck
in legionnaires back then. Giant snake.. eugh.
- Paul Zalac
remove duplicate letters to reply
Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"
>Jason Fliegel <que...@aol.com> wrote:
(Actually, Johanna wrote this next sentence)
>> >Depending on who you talk to, she helped/ghost-wrote for her
>> >husband Roger Stern on his run.
>>
>> If only you knew somebody who could shed some light on what went on
>> behind the scenes during the Stern run. Like an editor, for
>> example.
>
>No comment on the above, other than to say that Carmela's involvement
>would presumably explain Roger Stern, the master _Avengers_ writer,
>suddenly giving the inhabitants of another team book stupendously
>wordy dialogues.
Johanna is choosing not to tell what she knows of the situation (from KC) -
although of course nobody is under any obligation whatsoever to say anything.
Back in 1998, Joe Edkin (who collaborated with Stern a few times) posted a long
and very informative article about how the "Legionnaires" book was written. You
can find it at
<http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=6rg5h3%24e3e%40bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
[begin quote]
When Roger took on Legionnaires, she started by proofreading and making
suggestions. Again, as deadline crunches came up, she would make notes on
Tom McCraw's plot ideas in order to make sure timelines matched in LSH and
L*, might write *some* suggested dialog, but in the end, Roger went through
and made sure that everything fit together and was in his authorial voice
both in plot and in script. Throughout the entire process, the editor (KC
Carlson at the time) *was* aware of the work she was doing to help out.
Later on, as Carmela developed her talents and her confidence, she began to
do more and more work on Legionnaires, writing first drafts of plots
(working from the outlines worked out by Tom McCraw, Roger, KC--now Mike,
and Tom Peyer) and first drafts of dialog. Roger would then write the
finished drafts of both. (For the record, when I worked on L* Annual #3 and
L* #50, it was the same process--I did first drafts, then Roger went through
and made sure they were in line with his style.) It's not so much that he's
choosing to do less work, but Carmela's work has improved so he doesn't need
to do as much. Again, KC and Mike were aware of the work she was
doing--there were no secrets. No one is trying to hoodwink anyone and Roger
has been fighting to make sure Carmela received proper recognition for the
work she has been doing. In fact, KC was and Mike has been trying to set
Carmela up officially with page rate and proper credit, but for reasons
beyond the ken of mortal folk, there have been problems in house about that
(about which I don't feel it's my place to comment on in any further
detail).
[end quote]
So there was never any secret about who did what or who got paid for what job -
except that the general readership was never told (via credits) what role Merlo
played in the story creation.
--
Michael R. Grabois # http://chili.cjb.net # http://wizardimps.blogspot.com
"Do me a favor, Lightning Lad... shut up and dance!" (S/LSH 232)
Brian Doyle
"matr1x" <mMaAtT...@sShHaAwW.cCaA> wrote in message
news:IUrKb.975501$9l5.111016@pd7tw2no...
> Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>
> On their way out I'd like to thank DnA for mostly dealing with every
problem
> I had with the legion before they took it over.
Interestingly, they killed most of what I enjoyed about the series from
before.
> Granted the current storyline is overlong and uninteresting,
As have they all been IMHO
> but still better than that dreck
> in legionnaires back then. Giant snake.. eugh.
That's very humanoid-ist of you, I loved the fact there were non-humanoid
Legionnaires from the outset, it took the so cosmopolitan United Planets
thirty years to get round to it pre ZH.
matr1x
> Interestingly, they killed most of what I enjoyed about the series from
> before.
bad writing and spotlighting bad characters?
the period im referring to is that period in which "roger stern" was writing
legionnaires. the other book , LSH, stayed readable. before "roger stern",
the book was great. "roger stern" shouldnt have written the legion.
>> Granted the current storyline is overlong and uninteresting,
> As have they all been IMHO
give em an inch.. yeesh.
>> but still better than that dreck
>> in legionnaires back then. Giant snake.. eugh.
> That's very humanoid-ist of you, I loved the fact there were non-humanoid
> Legionnaires from the outset, it took the so cosmopolitan United Planets
> thirty years to get round to it pre ZH.
no, im not against non-humanoid characters, im against stupid earth-creature
inspired giant snakes that live on a planet with raccoon slaves. (to those
of you who didnt read the legion back then, that is how her planet was
depicted.. good writing? HAH!) i love gates and most other aliens species
in the legion.
- Paul Zalac
--
remove superfluous letters to reply.
Dan McEwen
news:btf0to$1od$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
> "matr1x" <mMaAtT...@sShHaAwW.cCaA> wrote in message
> news:IUrKb.975501$9l5.111016@pd7tw2no...
>> Johanna Draper Carlson wrote:
>>
>> On their way out I'd like to thank DnA for mostly dealing with every
> problem
>> I had with the legion before they took it over.
>
> Interestingly, they killed most of what I enjoyed about the series
> from before.
Actually, I felt that they picked up shortly before the current arc.
>> Granted the current storyline is overlong and uninteresting,
>
> As have they all been IMHO
I like Foundations, though admittedly I'm wondering how this works with
the Valor worship.
>> but still better than that dreck
>> in legionnaires back then. Giant snake.. eugh.
>
> That's very humanoid-ist of you, I loved the fact there were
> non-humanoid Legionnaires from the outset, it took the so cosmopolitan
> United Planets thirty years to get round to it pre ZH.
I have no problem with Gates, but I think my affection for preboot
Projectra colored my feelings about Sensor.
Michael Pastor
"Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:btf0to$1od$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Yeah, but a distinctly Terran species snake (with raccoon servants?) is not
being non-humanoid-centric enough. Gates? maybe, since he doesn't resemble
any insect that I've ever seen. Tellus? Definitely.
They didn't go far enough. I like the original very-alien looking alien
snake they designed for Sensor (and the sketch is out there on the web
somewhere).
michael j pastor
Tom Galloway
Gail Simone <gai...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I think readers will enjoy this story. One thing I did NOT want to do
>was re-write a classic Legion story. We're considering this a Legion
>movie, in a way, big and loud and fun with some cool scary weirdos.
>AND a character will appear who may have a big effect on the Legion in
>the future.
OK, Gail, fess up; just how strong was the temptation, as a hairdresser, to
have Spider Girl play a significant role in your story (not the Marvel one;
the Legion era/U one who can instagrow hair and have control over its
motions). :-)
tyg t...@panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Brian Doyle
"Michael Pastor" <michael...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bthfak$79hab$1...@ID-174457.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > That's very humanoid-ist of you, I loved the fact there were
non-humanoid
> > Legionnaires from the outset, it took the so cosmopolitan United Planets
> > thirty years to get round to it pre ZH.
>
> Yeah, but a distinctly Terran species snake (with raccoon servants?) is
not
> being non-humanoid-centric enough. Gates? maybe, since he doesn't
resemble
> any insect that I've ever seen. Tellus? Definitely.
YEah, I'd like to see him again.
> They didn't go far enough. I like the original very-alien looking alien
> snake they designed for Sensor (and the sketch is out there on the web
> somewhere).
Oooh, now that I would like to see!
Brian Doyle
"Dan McEwen" <dannyb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bthdp1$6t676$1...@ID-177615.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Projectra colored my feelings about Sensor.
Ah, that's my advantage then. I never liked the old Jeckie that much,
someone whose power is illusion should not go out of her way to announce the
fact that that's her power.
Michael S. Schiffer
Surely that should be blamed on her parents? She was just using
her name, without even tacking on any fancy heroic appellations.
:-) (And Legionnaires don't have secret identities, or at least
didn't till the Sensor Girl era.)
In any case, that problem, such as it was, was solved pre-Crisis by
Jeckie's becoming Sensor Girl. I'm not sure how much of a problem
it was in principle, though. Sure, the typical "create a hideous
monster" application was limited (though if you're a Legion
adversary, how do you know the hideous monster is Projectra's
illusion and not Chameleon Boy? As long as that uncertainty
exists, you can't just ignore Jeckie's projections.)
But the same power would allow Projectra to move all the exits to a
room five feet over, or make traps and pits look like safe ground,
or essentially give all her teammates Invisible Kid's powers in
addition to their own. Get the bad guys to throw the Kryptonite at
Mon-El, point the radiation gun at Superboy instead of Ultra Boy,
grab the tracking device instead of their intended loot (which in
turn looks like a support pillar or a trash can).
Sure, it all goes away if they knock her out-- but if she's visible
to them and looks like herself, she's not using her power to the
best of its capability. (And flight ring plus transsuit should
allow her to evade most area attacks.) Being able to make your
enemies unable to trust their senses is a heck of a power, even if
they're aware that you can do it. In some ways, the fact that they
*know* that things may not be as they seem would throw them off
even more. After the first three Quantum Gemeralds they've grabbed
are actually charged power cables, they may be loath to grab the
fourth-- even if it's the real, undisguised trasure.
As with many of the "weaker" powers, it's weak because the writers
weren't thinking all that hard about how to apply it (and,
arguably, because for a long while there was a tendency to minimize
the girls' abilities). Against living opponents, her abilities are
potentially far more versatile and useful than, say, Sun Boy's or
Lightning Lad's.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Brian Doyle
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9469959EB9FB...@130.133.1.4...
> > "Dan McEwen" <dannyb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:bthdp1$6t676$1...@ID-177615.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> "Brian Doyle" <No_...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> >> news:btf0to$1od$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
> >> I have no problem with Gates, but I think my affection for
> >> preboot Projectra colored my feelings about Sensor.
>
> > Ah, that's my advantage then. I never liked the old Jeckie that
> > much, someone whose power is illusion should not go out of her
> > way to announce the fact that that's her power.
>
> Surely that should be blamed on her parents? She was just using
> her name, without even tacking on any fancy heroic appellations.
Good point!
> :-) (And Legionnaires don't have secret identities, or at least
> didn't till the Sensor Girl era.)
In her case it would have made so much sense to though.
> In any case, that problem, such as it was, was solved pre-Crisis by
> Jeckie's becoming Sensor Girl.
Indeed.
> I'm not sure how much of a problem
> it was in principle, though. Sure, the typical "create a hideous
> monster" application was limited (though if you're a Legion
> adversary, how do you know the hideous monster is Projectra's
> illusion and not Chameleon Boy? As long as that uncertainty
> exists, you can't just ignore Jeckie's projections.)
This is true, though when you suddenly find the entire environment has
altered around you (Like if you find yourself on a blasted heath rather than
Legion Plaza where you were a moment ago) and the tre are blwoing though you
feel no wind, or the fire in front of you gives off no heat or the like, it
doesn't take a Coluan to work out there's an illusion going on (She didn't
get multi sensory illusions until she became Sensor Girl, and IIRC Pre-ZH
was pretty much a hologram caster, whereas Post-ZH Sensor was from the
outset a psionic illusionist in nature)
> As with many of the "weaker" powers, it's weak because the writers
> weren't thinking all that hard about how to apply it (and,
> arguably, because for a long while there was a tendency to minimize
> the girls' abilities).
Hey, you're speaking to a stalwart Cypher fan here, I know all about the
weak powers being anything but to the right writer.
Michael S. Schiffer
> message news:Xns9469959EB9FB...@130.133.1.4...
>> >> news:btf0to$1od$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk:
>> > Ah, that's my advantage then. I never liked the old Jeckie
>> > that much, someone whose power is illusion should not go out
>> > of her way to announce the fact that that's her power.
>...
>> I'm not sure how much of a problem
>> it was in principle, though. Sure, the typical "create a
>> hideous monster" application was limited (though if you're a
>> Legion adversary, how do you know the hideous monster is
>> Projectra's illusion and not Chameleon Boy? As long as that
>> uncertainty exists, you can't just ignore Jeckie's
>> projections.)
> This is true, though when you suddenly find the entire
> environment has altered around you (Like if you find yourself on
> a blasted heath rather than Legion Plaza where you were a moment
> ago) and the tre are blwoing though you feel no wind, or the
> fire in front of you gives off no heat or the like, it doesn't
> take a Coluan to work out there's an illusion going on
True enough. Though that you know you're not on a blasted heath
may not be all that useful, if it means that you can't see where
the walls are, or Timber Wolf approaching by air to punch your
lights out. :-) (Most of Shadow Lass's power is a subset of
Jeckie's, and she also announced her power in her name.)
Alternatively if, in the middle of a fight, everything around you
slowly moved a foot to the right, how easy would it be to tell?
How easy would it be to correct for, especially if it's being
continuously moved around in a random pattern?
It's true that there are advantages to the bad guys not knowing
that the Legion has an illusion caster, but how long could that
realistically last? Sensor Girl, as you note, had beefier
illusions, which were generally harder to become aware of. But
with Jeckie's old powers, at some point it would become obvious
that the Legion could do visual images on the fly. Whether that
was the mysterious platinum blonde who calls herself Miss Direction
or one of Brainiac 5's toys, people would start to be on the
lookout for the tactic.
>...
>> As with many of the "weaker" powers, it's weak because the
>> writers weren't thinking all that hard about how to apply it
>> (and, arguably, because for a long while there was a tendency
>> to minimize the girls' abilities).
> Hey, you're speaking to a stalwart Cypher fan here, I know all
> about the weak powers being anything but to the right writer.
Now there's someone who should've transferred to the Legion. (Or,
failing that, maybe the Shi'ar Imperial Guard.) Give the man a
flight ring, a transsuit, and a place on the Espionage Squad.
Though given the historical treatment of non-organic intelligence
in the Superman/Legion corner of the DCU, if Warlock comes along he
should probably purport to be equipment rather than a prospective
team member. (After all, Brainy was allowed to have his pet AIs no
matter how often they tried to kill or enslave everyone.) R.J.
Brande could offer to repair the stars Warlock's dad tore apart,
with low, low financing rates.
Dan McEwen
Agreed, but you have to admit that Sensor Girl was pretty interesting.
Also, awareness of illusions or not, she made some pretty crappy ones.
Brian Doyle
> True enough. Though that you know you're not on a blasted heath
> may not be all that useful, if it means that you can't see where
> the walls are, or Timber Wolf approaching by air to punch your
> lights out. :-) (Most of Shadow Lass's power is a subset of
> Jeckie's, and she also announced her power in her name.)
True, though Shady has the advantage that her power
> Alternatively if, in the middle of a fight, everything around you
> slowly moved a foot to the right, how easy would it be to tell?
> How easy would it be to correct for, especially if it's being
> continuously moved around in a random pattern?
That'd have been a nifty use of her power, but could she do that? Wouldn't
all the Legion be affected too? I don't recall her illusions being person
specific.
> Whether that
> was the mysterious platinum blonde who calls herself Miss Direction
Is she the one who hung out with Sir Prize? :)
> > Hey, you're speaking to a stalwart Cypher fan here, I know all
> > about the weak powers being anything but to the right writer.
>
> Now there's someone who should've transferred to the Legion. (Or,
> failing that, maybe the Shi'ar Imperial Guard.)
No, he needed to be with the X-Men, to remind them that not all mutants have
flashy plasma energy based powers.
> Give the man a flight ring, a transsuit, and a place on the Espionage
Squad.
He was always a front line kind of guy though.
> Though given the historical treatment of non-organic intelligence
> in the Superman/Legion corner of the DCU, if Warlock comes along he
> should probably purport to be equipment rather than a prospective
> team member.
He wouldn't need a green card then? :)
> R.J. Brande could offer to repair the stars Warlock's dad tore apart,
> with low, low financing rates.
You don't get to be the galaxies richest man by missing business
opportunities like that!
Michael S. Schiffer
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in
> message news:Xns9469BE07C1AB...@130.133.1.4...
>> True enough. Though that you know you're not on a blasted
>> heath may not be all that useful, if it means that you can't
>> see where the walls are, or Timber Wolf approaching by air to
>> punch your lights out. :-) (Most of Shadow Lass's power is a
>> subset of Jeckie's, and she also announced her power in her
>> name.)
> True, though Shady has the advantage that her power
This got cut off. But Shady's power does actually absorb light
energy, which allows her to do stuff that Jeckie can't. And
sometimes (though not always, I think) she could see in the dark,
IIRC. It's not a one for one replacement (and it doesn't allow for
the rarely/never realized Shadow Lass/Night Girl juggernaut) but it
does allow for 90+% of Shady's actual uses of the power. (Of
course, how *Shadow Lass* could have used her power more
effectively would be a whole nother post. :-) )
>> Alternatively if, in the middle of a fight, everything around
>> you slowly moved a foot to the right, how easy would it be to
>> tell? How easy would it be to correct for, especially if it's
>> being continuously moved around in a random pattern?
> That'd have been a nifty use of her power, but could she do
> that?
I can't be sure, of course, since she never did, but it seems as if
conjuring an illusion of things that she can see would be easier
than making stuff up, and she could accurately duplicate the
appearances of people and things.
Wouldn't all the Legion be affected too? I don't recall
> her illusions being person specific.
Probably, but it would work well in concert with Legionnaires who
can work non-visually: Superboy (et al.), Dawnstar, probably Timber
Wolf, possibly the telepaths. (And Brainy might be able to work
out what was going on and compensate, especially if it were a
standard tactic.) The Legion being the Legion, they could probably
also work out code words for "aim a foot to the left, Jeckie's
using Maneuver 10-B".
>> Whether that
>> was the mysterious platinum blonde who calls herself Miss
>> Direction
> Is she the one who hung out with Sir Prize? :)
Now you're just getting your platinum blondes with goofy code names
mixed up. :-)
>...
>> Though given the historical treatment of non-organic
>> intelligence in the Superman/Legion corner of the DCU, if
>> Warlock comes along he should probably purport to be equipment
>> rather than a prospective team member.
> He wouldn't need a green card then? :)
Note to Warlock: do not, repeat, not say anything to associate
yourself with the color green. AI's + green --> Brainiac, Computo,
and (on alternate Thursdays) Pulsar Stargrave --> destroy first and
blame Brainiac 5 later.
Karl Hiller
Tell that to Nemesis Kid.
Michael Pastor
"Karl Hiller" <kren...@ySaPhAoMo.com> wrote in message
news:vvrpdn8...@corp.supernews.com...
Yeah, but I think that is the one thing that really bugged me about the
entire LSV story - it was never explained enough (to me) how Jeckie was able
to overcome Nemesis Lad's power, or from his side, how his power was unable
to respond to Jeckie's. Yeah, it was dramatic and really cool, but it's a
niggling detail that I can't get over.
michael j pastor
Brian Doyle
I'm glad someone else said that, because I thought I'd sound too nitpicky,
even for me.
I THINK it was down to the fact that his "nemesis power" automatically
countered her superpower, so he'd be immune to illusions but, in his
arrogance, he was completely unprepared for her acquired skill of being a
kick ass martial artist.
David Goldfarb
Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>the rarely/never realized Shadow Lass/Night Girl juggernaut
I'm almost sure I read a story once where they did team up. And
another one (this one, I'm pretty sure, during Shooter's second run)
in which Night Girl used blackout bombs like those of Dr. Mid-Nite.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"To summarize the summary of the summary:
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | People are a problem."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Douglas Adams
George Grattan
Except she wasn't a "kick ass martial artist," so one doesn't even need
to go there to try to understand the moment or Levitz's intent with it.
(Sure, Val had taught her a range of basic skills over the years,
augmented by her Legion training itself, but there was never any
indication that she was as competent a hand-to-hand combatant as even,
say, Dream Girl--who was specifically shown to have had an aptitude.)
For me, Projectra beat NK through sheer force of royal will. She comes
at him first with a few particularly nasty illusions, which his power
counters (not that he'd really have needed it to, since he knows full
well what she'd be doing), and then basically stares him down into
submission ("Look into my eyes, churl.") until she snaps his neck in a
royal execution. No fancy martial arts about it, no misdirection of his
power per se (though that's certainly one way to read it if you like).
It's a moment that either works for one on the basic dramatic level or
doesn't (I've been of both minds about it), and I don't think wondering
about the power mechanics of it adds much to the scene, ultimately. I
see what Levitz was going for, *and* why it doesn't quite come off:
Nemesis Kid was precisely the wrong character to try to write that scene
around, since readers couldn't help but start asking the questions about
why/how his specific abilities were overcome. But, of course, that scene
*had* to be with NK and Jeckie for a whole host of other thematic
reasons....
It's a real cobra/snake moment, imo. Jeckie was the bigger badass in
that moment, and NK was paralyzed by the realization of that reality.
Samy Merchi
> In article <Xns946A96151F9B...@130.133.1.4>,
> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>the rarely/never realized Shadow Lass/Night Girl juggernaut
>
> I'm almost sure I read a story once where they did team up. And
Yep, I recently got Legion Archives 10-12, and one of the stories
there (although I forget which one) had them teaming up.
--
Samy Merchi | sa...@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"
Brian Doyle
"George Grattan" <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3ffed036$0$6753$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>
>
> Except she wasn't a "kick ass martial artist," so one doesn't even need
> to go there to try to understand the moment or Levitz's intent with it.
> (Sure, Val had taught her a range of basic skills over the years,
> augmented by her Legion training itself, but there was never any
> indication that she was as competent a hand-to-hand combatant as even,
> say, Dream Girl--who was specifically shown to have had an aptitude.)
Except she _was_ able to snap a guys neck one handed, that's not something
you learn at the ballet. Circular logic, but logic.
> For me, Projectra beat NK through sheer force of royal will. She comes
> at him first with a few particularly nasty illusions, which his power
> counters (not that he'd really have needed it to, since he knows full
> well what she'd be doing), and then basically stares him down into
> submission ("Look into my eyes, churl.") until she snaps his neck in a
> royal execution. No fancy martial arts about it, no misdirection of his
> power per se (though that's certainly one way to read it if you like).
> It's a moment that either works for one on the basic dramatic level or
> doesn't (I've been of both minds about it), and I don't think wondering
> about the power mechanics of it adds much to the scene, ultimately. I
> see what Levitz was going for, *and* why it doesn't quite come off:
> Nemesis Kid was precisely the wrong character to try to write that scene
> around, since readers couldn't help but start asking the questions about
> why/how his specific abilities were overcome.
It was just he was too used to his power protecting him from the good guys,
it never occured to him that whilst his power WAS protecting him against her
powers, eg from the illusions, Jecky was capable of more than that.
> It's a real cobra/snake moment, imo. Jeckie was the bigger badass in
> that moment, and NK was paralyzed by the realization of that reality.
Pretty much.
Bill Hay
>
> Yeah, but I think that is the one thing that really bugged me about the
> entire LSV story - it was never explained enough (to me) how Jeckie was able
> to overcome Nemesis Lad's power, or from his side, how his power was unable
> to respond to Jeckie's. Yeah, it was dramatic and really cool, but it's a
> niggling detail that I can't get over.
>
Jeckie was queen of a magical planet. If there's a sword in a stone
anywhere on Orando Jeckie is the one to pull it. As the embodiment of
an entire planet she doesn't really count as a single foe but a nation.
--
TANSTAAFM
George Grattan
Brian Doyle wrote:
> "George Grattan" <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:3ffed036$0$6753$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
>
>>
>
>>Except she wasn't a "kick ass martial artist," so one doesn't even need
>>to go there to try to understand the moment or Levitz's intent with it.
>>(Sure, Val had taught her a range of basic skills over the years,
>>augmented by her Legion training itself, but there was never any
>>indication that she was as competent a hand-to-hand combatant as even,
>>say, Dream Girl--who was specifically shown to have had an aptitude.)
>
>
> Except she _was_ able to snap a guys neck one handed, that's not something
> you learn at the ballet. Circular logic, but logic.
No, but you might just learn it (or see it done enough times) as
Princess on a medieval world. It's not like it takes any particular
skill-set, just the will to do it and a whole lotta wrist and arm
strength. :-)
Brian Doyle
>
>
> Brian Doyle wrote:
>
> > "George Grattan" <GGra...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> > news:3ffed036$0$6753$61fe...@news.rcn.com...
> > Except she _was_ able to snap a guys neck one handed, that's not
something
> > you learn at the ballet. Circular logic, but logic.
>
> No, but you might just learn it (or see it done enough times) as
> Princess on a medieval world. It's not like it takes any particular
> skill-set, just the will to do it and a whole lotta wrist and arm
> strength. :-)
Arm wrestling with Val must hve been the equivalent of a postgraduate
course!
Sean Daugherty
> the period im referring to is that period in which "roger stern" was writing
> legionnaires. the other book , LSH, stayed readable. before "roger stern",
> the book was great. "roger stern" shouldnt have written the legion.
Really? That's odd. I remember back during the Stern-McCraw-Peyer run,
and it seemed to be all but universally agreed that Stern's
"Legionnaires" was much better than Peyer's "LSH," at least for the
first year or two. Stern's run may not have been classic stuff, but
the Mordru storyline was at least a lot less pointless than the Team
20 nonsense over in the main title.
Of course, things pretty much tanked for both books shortly after LSH
#100, first was the abominable and nigh-indecipherable Dark Circle
storyline, and a succession of pointless fluff stories like the
Bizarro Legion. But I don't recall LSH being particularly better than
L* during this time, either....
OTOH, I don't think either Stern or Peyer are truly to blame here.
Peyer turned in some great work early on when Waid was getting a
cowriting credit, and Stern started off at least respectably. I think
the books both collapsed under their own weight: McCraw, who had a
major hand in plotting both books, ended up with his name on almost as
many Legion issues as Levitz in half the time, there was a succession
of artistic and editorial shakeups, and I suspect the tag-team writing
was a little too much for anyone to handle (witness the appearance and
subsequence complete disappearance of the Subs for an example).
As skeptical as I was at the time, I think bringing Abnett and Lanning
on board really revitalized the book and restored some degree of a
consistent creative vision to the series. I haven't really liked
everything they've done (they do seem more comfortable handling a
smaller cast, the transformations of Zoe and Jeka have been oddly
pointless, and the newer (additions to the team, like Gear, have had
nothing worthwhile to do), but I do give them credit for making the
boot seem like it *matters* again, which it really hadn't done for me
at all since the Mordru storyline, and hadn't fully succeeded at since
the White Triangle....
Michael R. Grabois ... change $ to "s"
>gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) wrote on 09 tammi 2004:
>
>> In article <Xns946A96151F9B...@130.133.1.4>,
>> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>>the rarely/never realized Shadow Lass/Night Girl juggernaut
>>
>> I'm almost sure I read a story once where they did team up. And
>
>Yep, I recently got Legion Archives 10-12, and one of the stories
>there (although I forget which one) had them teaming up.
That was in "Superboy" 212 (10/75), in the story "Death Stroke at Dawn",
reprinted in Archives 11.