The Great Books of the Twentieth Century
Feuillade
Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it here for
questions and comments.
First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
Feel free to e-mail your questions and comments
Here's the list:
VI: The Twentieth Century
Sir James George Frazer (1854-1941):
The Golden Bough
Sigmund Freud (1856-1939):
The Interpretation of Dreams
The Psychopathology of Everyday Life
Civilization and Its Discontents
Totem and Taboo
Moses and Monotheism
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
Mrs. Warren's Profession
Arms and the Man
Candida
Caesar and Cleopatra
Man and Superman
Major Barbara
Pygmalion
Heartbreak House
Saint Joan
Joseph Conrad (1857-1924):
Lord Jim
Heart of Darkness
Nostromo
Thorstein Veblen (1857-1929):
The Theory of the Leisure Class
Ferdinand de Saussure (1857-1913):
Course in General Linguistics
J.A. Hobson (1858-1940):
Imperialism
Edmund Husserl (1859-1938):
Logical Investigations
Ideas: General Introduction to Pure Phenomenology
Cartesian Meditations
Henri Bergson (1859-1941):
Time and Free Will
Matter and Memory
Creative Evolution
Anton Chekhov (1860-1904):
Uncle Vanya
The Three Sisters
The Cherry Orchard
Edith Wharton (1862-1937):
The House of Mirth
The Age of Innocence
Max Weber (1864-1920):
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism
Luigi Pirandello (1867-1936):
Six Characters in Search of an Author
W.E.B. DuBois (1868-1963):
The Suppression of the African Slave Trade
The Souls of Black Folks
Black Reconstruction
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (1870-1924):
The State and Revolution
Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism
Marcel Proust (1871-1922):
In Search of Lost Time
John Millington Synge (1871-1909):
The Playboy of the Western World
Theodore Dreiser (1871-1945):
Sister Carrie
An American Tragedy
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970):
The Problems of Philosophy
Why I Am Not a Christian
G.E. Moore (1873-1958):
Principia Ethica
Willa Cather (1873-1947):
My Antonia
Death Comes for the Archbishop
Ford Madox Ford (1873-1939):
The Good Soldier
Parade's End
Winston Churchill (1874-1965):
The World Crisis
The Second World War
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961):
The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious
Answer to Job
Thomas Mann (1875-1955):
Buddenbrooks
The Magic Mountain
Joseph and His Brothers
Doctor Faustus
Alfred Döblin (1878-1957):
Berlin Alexanderplatz
Leon Trotsky (1879-1940):
My Life
History of the Russian Revolution
E.M. Forster (1879-1970):
Howard's End
A Passage to India
Sean O'Casey (1880-1964):
The Shadow of a Gunman
Juno and the Paycock
The Plough and the Stars
Robert Musil (1880-1942):
The Man Without Qualities
Oswald Spengler (1880-1936):
The Decline of the West
Lytton Strachey (1880-1932):
Eminent Victorians
Queen Victoria
Andrei Bely (1880-1934):
Petersburg
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955):
The Phenomenon of Man
Jacques Maritain (1882-1973):
Art and Scholasticism
James Joyce (1882-1941):
A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
Ulysses
Virginia Woolf (1882-1941):
Mrs. Dalloway
To the Lighthouse
A Room of One's Own
Orlando
Joseph Alois Schumpeter (1883-1950):
The Theory of Economic Development
Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy
Franz Kafka (1883-1924):
The Trial
The Castle
John Maynard Keynes (1883-1946):
The Economic Consequences of the Peace
The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money
Ivy Compton-Burnett (1884-1969):
A House and its Head
A Family and a Fortune
Elders and Betters
Manservant and Maidservant
A God and his Gifts
D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930):
Sons and Lovers
The Rainbow
Women in Love
Hermann Broch (1886-1951):
The Sleepwalkers
The Death of Virgil
Eugene O'Neill (1888-1953):
Mourning Becomes Electra
The Iceman Cometh
Long Day's Journey into Night
A Moon for the Misbegotten
Martin Heidegger (1889-1976):
Being and Time
An Introduction to Metaphysics
Adolf Hitler (1889-1945):
Mein Kampf
Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951):
Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
The Blue and Brown Books
Philosophical Investigations
Arnold Toynbee (1889-1975):
A Study of History
Boris Leonidovich Pasternak (1890-1960):
Doctor Zhivago
Mikhail Afanasyevich Bulgakov (1891-1940):
The Master and Margarita
Henry Miller (1891-1980):
Tropic of Cancer
The Colossus of Maroussi
Antonio Gramsci (1891-1937):
Prison Notebooks
Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971):
The Nature and Destiny of Man
Aldous Huxley (1894-1963):
Brave New World
Louis-Ferdinand Céline (1894-1961):
Journey to the End of the Night
Death on the Installment Plan
Robert Graves (1895-1985):
Goodbye to All That
Edmund Wilson (1895-1972):
To the Finland Station
Patriotic Gore
F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896-1940):
The Great Gatsby
Tender is the Night
John Dos Passos (1896-1970):
Three Soldiers
Manhattan Transfer
U.S.A.
Dawn Powell (1896-1965):
Angels on Toast
The Wicked Pavilion
The Locusts Have No King
The Golden Spur
William Faulkner (1897-1962):
The Sound and the Fury
As I Lay Dying
Light in August
Absalom, Absalom!
The Snopes Trilogy
Thornton Wilder (1897-1975):
The Bridge of San Luis Rey
Our Town
The Skin of Our Teeth
Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956):
Mother Courage and Her Children
Galileo
The Good Woman of Setzuan
The Caucasian Chalk Circle
Nadezhda Mandelstam (1899-1980):
Hope Against Hope
Hope Abandoned
Friedrich Hayek (1899-1992):
The Road to Serfdom
Leo Strauss (1899-1973):
On Tyranny
Natural Right and History
Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961):
The Sun Also Rises
A Farewell to Arms
For Whom the Bell Tolls
Noel Coward (1899-1973):
Hay Fever
Private Lives
Blithe Spirit
Vladimir Nabokov (1899-1977):
Lolita
Pale Fire
Speak, Memory
Gilbert Ryle (1900-1976):
The Concept of Mind
Jacques Lacan (1901-1981):
Écrits
Karl Popper (1902-1994):
The Poverty of Historicism
The Open Society and Its Enemies
Nathanael West (1903-1940):
Miss Lonelyhearts
The Day of the Locust
George Orwell (1903-1950):
Down and Out in Paris and London
Homage to Catalonia
Animal Farm
1984
William L. Shirer (1904-1993):
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980):
Nausea
No Exit
Being and Nothingness
The Words
Robert Penn Warren (1905-1989):
All the King's Men
Albert Speer (1905-1981):
Inside the Third Reich
Mikhail Aleksandrovich Sholokhov (1905-1984):
The Quiet Don
Samuel Beckett (1906-1989):
Waiting for Godot
Endgame
Krapp's Last Tape
Hannah Arendt (1906-1975):
The Origins of Totalitarianism
Eichmann in Jerusalem
Maurice Merleau-Ponty (1908-1961):
The Phenomenology of Perception
W.V. Quine (1908-2000):
Word and Object
A.J. Ayer (1910-1989):
Language, Truth and Logic
The Problem of Knowledge
The Central Questions of Philosophy
J.L. Austin (1911-1960):
Sense and Sensibilia
How to Do Things With Words
Tennessee Williams (1911-1983):
The Glass Menagerie
A Streetcar Named Desire
Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
Barbara Tuchman (1912-1989):
The Guns of August
Albert Camus (1913-1960):
The Stranger
The Plague
Saul Bellow (1915- ):
The Adventures of Augie March
Herzog
Humboldt's Gift
Thomas Merton (1915-1968):
The Seven Storey Mountain
John Hope Franklin (1915- ):
From Slavery to Freedom
Arthur Miller (1915- ):
Death of a Salesman
The Crucible
Shelby Foote (1916- ):
The Civil War
Page Smith (1917-1995):
A People's History of the United States
Robert Conquest (1917- ):
The Great Terror
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (1918- ):
One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
The First Circle
Cancer Ward
The Gulag Archipelago
Russell Kirk (1918-1994):
The Conservative Mind
P.F. Strawson (1919- ):
Individuals
Howard Zinn (1922- ):
A People's History of the United States
Roy Medvedev (1925- ):
Let History Judge
Michel Foucault (1926-1984):
Madness and Civilization
Gabriel Garcia Márquez (1928- ):
One Hundred Years of Solitude
Michael Harrington (1928-1989):
The Other America
Noam Chomsky (1928- ):
Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies
Deterring Democracy
Edward Albee (1928- ):
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
A Delicate Balance
Three Tall Women
Anne Frank (1929-1945):
The Diary of a Young Girl
Harold Pinter (1930- ):
The Birthday Party
The Caretaker
The Homecoming
Betrayal
Lorraine Hansberry (1930-1965):
A Raisin in the Sun
Joe Orton (1933-1967):
Entertaining Mr. Sloan
Loot
What the Butler Saw
Tom Stoppard (1937- ):
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
The Real Thing
Arcadia
The Invention of Love
John Kennedy Toole (1937-1969):
A Confederacy of Dunces
Saul Kripke (1940- ):
Naming and Necessity
Sam Shepard (1943- ):
Curse of the Starving Class
Buried Child
True West
August Wilson (1945- ):
Ma Rainey's Black Bottom
Fences
The Piano Lesson
David Mamet (1947- ):
American Buffalo
Glengarry Glen Ross
Tom Moran
jimC
Feuillade wrote:
>
> I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the 20th
> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it here for
> questions and comments.
>
> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
> [And the waters gushed forth.]
Not a bad list, except I could probably do without the
tendentiousness of Lenin. One Trotsky is quite enough too.
I once lived next door to him in New York, you know. He ran
his radio tuned to the late WNEW 24 hours a day. Twenty-four
hours *every* fucking day. I still hear Nola and Ted in my
two fillings. I had to restrain my woman from going over there
with a pick-axe to do something about him.
You are of course to be commended for including Pinter's "Betrayal".
One thing puzzles me though. I see you've omitted Melville, who
continued to be widely read in the 20th century, especially after
about 1930. In view of your previously expressed admiration for
him, I don't understand.
jimC
smw
Feuillade wrote:
Sigmund Freud (1856-1939):
> The Interpretation of Dreams
> The Psychopathology of Everyday Life
> Civilization and Its Discontents
> Totem and Taboo
> Moses and Monotheism
Scratch T+T and add _Beyond the Pleasure Principle_ -- his finest and most
enduring.
s
Richard Harter
>
>
>Feuillade wrote:
>>
>> I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the 20th
>> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it here for
>> questions and comments.
>>
>> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
>
>> [And the waters gushed forth.]
>
>Not a bad list, except I could probably do without the
>tendentiousness of Lenin. One Trotsky is quite enough too.
>I once lived next door to him in New York, you know. He ran
>his radio tuned to the late WNEW 24 hours a day. Twenty-four
>hours *every* fucking day. I still hear Nola and Ted in my
>two fillings. I had to restrain my woman from going over there
>with a pick-axe to do something about him.
Which Trotsky would that have been?
>You are of course to be commended for including Pinter's "Betrayal".
>
>One thing puzzles me though. I see you've omitted Melville, who
>continued to be widely read in the 20th century, especially after
>about 1930. In view of your previously expressed admiration for
>him, I don't understand.
>
>
>jimC
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net,
http://www.tiac.net/users/cri
Economists are people who work with numbers
but don't have the personality to be accountants.
David
feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
> I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the
> 20th
> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it
> here for
> questions and comments.
Wot, no Winnie The Pooh, or Catch twenty-tooh?
No Lord of the Flies, that's a surpries.
No Tin Drum is rather rum.
And what about the joys of Scouting for Boys?
Nothing of Mailer, nothing of Greene?
Nothing of Updike or Wells to be seen?
But five books by Dame Ivy Compton-Burnett?
I haven't got the hang of that yet.
And four books by Powell, Dawn?
Never heard of her - maybe my memory's gawn.
David
Feuillade
>Feuillade wrote:
>> I've recently been working on a
>> Great Books list, and found that
>> the 20th Century segment of it
>> was getting a little long. So I'm
>> posting it here for questions
>> and comments.
>> First the rules: no books on
>> science or mathematics. No
>> lyric poetry.
>> [And the waters gushed forth.]
> Not a bad list, except I could probably
> do without the tendentiousness of
> Lenin.
He may be tendentious, but he's undoubtedly influential. And hard to get rid
of. Considering the influence he had on Russia and the Soviet Union up until
about 1991, it's hard not to include him.
> One Trotsky is quite enough too.
> I once lived next door to him in
> New York, you know. He ran
> his radio tuned to the late WNEW
> 24 hours a day. Twenty-four
> hours *every* fucking day. I still
> hear Nola and Ted in my
> two fillings. I had to restrain my
> woman from going over there
> with a pick-axe to do something
> about him.
You must have a different Trotsky in mind, unless of course you lived in New
York in about 1917 or so (at which time there was no WNEW).
> You are of course to be commended
> for including Pinter's "Betrayal".
Gee, thanks.
> One thing puzzles me though. I
> see you've omitted Melville, who
> continued to be widely read in the
> 20th century, especially after
> about 1930. In view of your
> previously expressed admiration for
> him, I don't understand.
Two points to be made here.
As you're probably well aware, 1) Melville died in 1891, and 2) I can't stand
him. I think he's easily the most overrated author in American letters.
Nevertheless, I held my nose and included Moby Dick on the 19th Century list.
No Billy Budd, though. Even I have limits.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
> Sigmund Freud (1856-1939):
I'll probably keep the one and add the other. :)
Tom Moran
Feuillade
> Wot, no Winnie The Pooh, or
> Catch twenty-tooh?
No, that would be far too easy to do.
> No Lord of the Flies, that's a surpries.
There's less to that book than meets the eyes.
>No Tin Drum is rather rum.
I always thought it was kinda dumb.
> And what about the joys of Scouting for Boys?
I'd rather have books that made more of a noise.
>Nothing of Mailer, nothing of Greene?
One is too Catholic, the other's obscene.
> Nothing of Updike or Wells to be seen?
Not really worthy -- you know what I mean.
>But five books by Dame Ivy Compton-Burnett?
>I haven't got the hang of that yet.
Maybe the two of you just haven't met.
Cause if you had, your respect she would earn it.
(You also would know that her name's pronounced "Burn-it")
>And four books by Powell, Dawn?
>Never heard of her - maybe my memory's gawn.
Maybe the well has been too-little drawn.
She is a satirist -- of the best
And easily just as good as the rest.
Tom Moran
ar...@my-deja.com
sapp...@cix.co.uk wrote:
> In article <20010201230437...@ng-fc1.aol.com>,
> feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>
> > I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the
> > 20th
> Nothing of Mailer, nothing of Greene?
> Nothing of Updike or Wells to be seen?
>
> But five books by Dame Ivy Compton-Burnett?
> I haven't got the hang of that yet.
Perhaps you might try W.R. first
Even if for Hammett you lack the thirst
And No Papa, no Steinbeck, my God!
Even Ignatius prefers those to C.O.D.
If its humor you want, why not try Heller?
At least you didn't include old Yeller.
>
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Irina
20th
> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it
here for
> questions and comments.
>
> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
No short stories? That would explain your exclusion of Kafka's
"Metamorphosis," Joyce's _Dubliners_, as well as Chekhov's, Calvino's,
and Borges's short stories.
> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
> Mrs. Warren's Profession
> Arms and the Man
> Candida
> Caesar and Cleopatra
> Man and Superman
> Major Barbara
> Pygmalion
> Heartbreak House
> Saint Joan
I realize you had to stop somewhere, but I'd've included "Don Juan in
Hell."
> Anton Chekhov (1860-1904):
> Uncle Vanya
> The Three Sisters
> The Cherry Orchard
The Seagull is great too.
> E.M. Forster (1879-1970):
> Howard's End
> A Passage to India
Are you serious?
> Eugene O'Neill (1888-1953):
> Mourning Becomes Electra
> The Iceman Cometh
> Long Day's Journey into Night
> A Moon for the Misbegotten
I think "The Hairy Ape" is also great.
> Boris Leonidovich Pasternak (1890-1960):
> Doctor Zhivago
I think the only things that make it worthwhile are the poems. The
prose is too flowery (I think they wisely translated it in a leaner
manner in the one English translation I looked at), and the story not
that engaging. Am I alone in thinking this?
You also include Harold Pinter's "Betrayal" and Tom Stoppard's "The Real
Thing." I have somewhat recently saw performances of each and maybe
it's those particular productions but I thought "Betrayal" not
especially good whereas "The Real Thing" amazing, eye-opening,
fantastic. When we got out of the theater everyone was talking about it
-- my friends, people around us -- for blocks until the crowd
dissipated. Very different from the bored reactions after the Pinter
play.
Also, I think you ought to include Philip Roth on your list, and I agree
w/ David about H. G. Wells and Graham Greene.
But bravo for including Gramsci and Bergson. I rarely see anyone
mention either one.
--
Irina
Feuillade
> feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>> I've recently been working on a
>> Great Books list, and found that the
>> 20th Century segment of it was
>> getting a little long. So I'm posting it
>> here for questions and comments.
>> First the rules: no books on
>> science or mathematics. No
>> lyric poetry.
> No short stories? That would
> explain your exclusion of Kafka's
> "Metamorphosis," Joyce's
> _Dubliners_, as well as
> Chekhov's, Calvino's, and Borges's
> short stories.
You're right. No short stories.
>> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
>> Mrs. Warren's Profession
>> Arms and the Man
>> Candida
>> Caesar and Cleopatra
>> Man and Superman
>> Major Barbara
>> Pygmalion
>> Heartbreak House
>> Saint Joan
> I realize you had to stop somewhere,
> but I'd've included "Don Juan in
> Hell."
Since it's part of a longer work (isn't it one act of Back to Methusaleh?), I
didn't think it quite fit.
>> Anton Chekhov (1860-1904):
>> Uncle Vanya
>> The Three Sisters
>> The Cherry Orchard
> The Seagull is great too.
You're absolutely right. I should have added it, and I will.
>> E.M. Forster (1879-1970):
>> Howard's End
>> A Passage to India
> Are you serious?
Yes. Why would you think I wasn't?
>> Eugene O'Neill (1888-1953):
>> Mourning Becomes Electra
>> The Iceman Cometh
>> Long Day's Journey into Night
>> A Moon for the Misbegotten
> I think "The Hairy Ape" is also great.
I decided to stick with the biggies. Also "The Hairy Ape" is kind of short,
and I was also avoiding one-acters (although THA isn't techinically a one-act,
I don't think. It's been a while since I read it).
>> Boris Leonidovich Pasternak (1890-1960):
>> Doctor Zhivago
> I think the only things that make
> it worthwhile are the poems. The
> prose is too flowery (I think they
> wisely translated it in a leaner
> manner in the one English translation
> I looked at), and the story not
> that engaging. Am I alone in
> thinking this?
Nabokov would agree with you, Edmund Wilson would disagree.
I threw it in late but I'm not married to the idea, although I'll probably keep
him in.
> You also include Harold
> Pinter's "Betrayal" and Tom
> Stoppard's "The Real Thing."
> I have somewhat recently
> saw performances of each and maybe
> it's those particular productions but
> I thought "Betrayal" not
> especially good whereas "The
> Real Thing" amazing, eye-opening,
> fantastic. When we got out of
> the theater everyone was talking
> about it -- my friends, people
> around us -- for blocks until the
> crowd dissipated. Very different
> from the bored reactions after the
> Pinter play.
Interesting.
> Also, I think you ought to include
> Philip Roth on your list, and I agree
> w/ David about H. G. Wells and
> Graham Greene.
I may add Roth (it's hard to know which Roth, though), and have already added
Greene, but I doubt I'll add Wells, since I'm also not including Science
Fiction. Maybe I'll get around to including "Tono-Bungay"
> But bravo for including Gramsci
> and Bergson. I rarely see anyone
> mention either one.
Thanks. I tried to avoid the merely trendy and go with people who have been
long thought of as having a permanent significance, even if they're not popular
at the moment.
Tom Moran
Trigger Hippo
Hash: SHA1
For English-language non-fiction (mostly[1]), I'll recommend an anthology
in translation: Kaufman's _Portable Nietzsche_.
For toilet paper, anything by Ayn Rand.
The
[1] Okay, the "Zarathustra" was technically sort of a novel, but still.
- --
"[T]he Higgs Boson is the cause of the Gulf War Syndrome." -New York Times
(C) 2001 by 'TheDavid(TM)' | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
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jimC
> jimC jimc...@pacbell.net [wrote:]
>
> > One Trotsky is quite enough too.
> > I once lived next door to him in
> > New York, you know. He ran
> > his radio tuned to the late WNEW
> > 24 hours a day. Twenty-four
> > hours *every* fucking day. I still
> > hear Nola and Ted in my
> > two fillings. I had to restrain my
> > woman from going over there
> > with a pick-axe to do something
> > about him.
>
> You must have a different Trotsky in mind, unless of course you lived
> in New York in about 1917 or so (at which time there was no WNEW).
No, no. There was only one Trotsky, praise Bog, and that was
Arnold Trotsky, nee Trotsky(?), also known part of his life
as Trotter. He would never come clean about whether he changed
his name because Trotter wasn't Russian enough, or whether he
returned to his roots in old age. (Of course, if his family
was named Trotsky, it too might've been an adopted name for his
father.) He did not look anything like the scragly character in
R. Crumb's comics.
Arnie's age went just about with the century. He was in his 80s
when we knew him in the mid-1980s. He painted agit-prop poster
watercolors, and still worked part time at a print shop over
in Queens. His apartment next door must have been one of
world's great repositories for that kind of stuff. His posters
had young men and women with raised clenched fists marching off
to the barricades in festive scenes that could have been Sunday
picnics. They had big yellow streaming labels in diagonal across
the pictures in jagged Cyrillic characters which I could sometimes
read, like "24th of May Movement!" (or whatever the date was) and
usually accompanied by an exclamation point. He was of an era now
bygone, although of course I didn't realize it at the time just as I
hadn't thought anything of the phasing out of street cars or the
radio soap opera.
My cousin, and Arnie and I had once had great sport with a loquacious
deejay in New York named Danny Stiles whom Arnie loathed. We
called him up and identified ourselves as Trotsky and Beria,
living on the Upper West Side. So he announced on the air that he'd
had a request from "Trotsky and Beria, living *right here* in
New York City," probably unaware of what he was saying. Arnie
thought it was a measure of how few people listened to
Danny Stiles that he still had a job the next night.
(This is all true, by the way.)
> > You are of course to be commended
> > for including Pinter's "Betrayal".
>
> Gee, thanks.
>
> > One thing puzzles me though. I
> > see you've omitted Melville, who
> > continued to be widely read in the
> > 20th century, especially after
> > about 1930. In view of your
> > previously expressed admiration for
> > him, I don't understand.
>
> Two points to be made here.
>
> As you're probably well aware,
> 1) Melville died in 1891,
I'm very sorry to hear of his passing. He wrote so expressively
of certain things: secreted bread, South Pacific nourishments,
missionaries, the endless sea, the endless whaler's manual.
> and 2) I can't stand him. I think he's easily the most overrated
> author in American etters.
I don't understand your sudden turnabout. It was the tattoos in
_Typee_, wasn't it? They turned me off, too. Could it have
been the Britten opera? If you think that was bad, think
what John Adams could do with it. (Hmm. "Nixon and Billy Budd
in Shanghai".)
> Nevertheless, I held my nose and included Moby Dick on the 19th
> Century list. No Billy Budd, though. Even I have limits.
Well, if you're going to include a Melville, that's the one
to have. Predictability is the most important trait a
trend-setter can possess.
jimC
kon...@my-deja.com
> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it
here for
> questions and comments.
published in the 20th century than in all previous centuries combined
>
> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
>
are mandatory...
what about Lorca? for "Yerma", as poet/playwright/martyr
is Arthur Miller in there? I forget? "Death of a Salesman," of course;
"The Crucible" is still apt, especially in the age of "the office of
faith-based action" ( an american inquisition?)
> Feel free to e-mail your questions and comments
I forget: is D.H. Lawrence in there? "Chatterly", "Sons and Lovers"?
Orwell's (Eric Blair) "Homage to Catalonia" certainly belongs
Ernst Cassirer "Man and the State"
Susan K. Langer "Philosophy in a New Key"
Levy-Strauss "Tristes Tropiques"
I think Foucault's "The Order of Things" belongs
Roland Barthes' "Mythologies"
Ortega Y Gassett "Revolt of the Masses"
Toni Morrison's "The Bluest Eye"
Franz Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth"
C.Wright Mill's "The Power Elite"
Jacques Ellul's "Propagandas"
Michael Harrington's "Socialism" and "The New American Poverty"
E.L. Doctorow's "Ragtime" (minimum)
Arnold Toynbee's "A Study of History (10 vols)"
Heinrich Boll (Nobel Laureate) "Ich Bin Nicht Stiller"
Naom Chomsky's "Syntactic Structures" (at least)
Lev Vygotsky's "Thinking and Speaking" and "Language and Society"
John Dewey's "Democracy and Education," "Experience and Nature," "How We
Think" (only one of dewey's major works was published before 1900)
and these dont really touch works by the likes of Gabriel Marquez ("100
Years of Solitude"), Isabel Allende, Miguel Unamuno, and others...
its a good list. if i had one criticism it is that, with the explosion
of knowledge and understanding of non-european writers and works in the
century, so few of those authors or works make your (our) list...
cheers, chers
dr.j
Feuillade
> feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>> First the rules: no books on science
>> or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
> Do you take Frost to be "lyric" poet?
Yes.
> If not, then his collected works
> are mandatory...
> what about Lorca? for "Yerma",
> as poet/playwright/martyr
As playwright? Perhaps. Not as poet.
> is Arthur Miller in there? I forget?
Yes.
> "Death of a Salesman," of course;
> "The Crucible" is still apt, especially
> in the age of "the office of faith-
> based action" ( an american
> inquisition?)
Both are on the list.
> I forget: is D.H. Lawrence in there?
Yes.
> "Chatterly", "Sons and Lovers"?
No to the former, yes to the latter -- along with "Sons and Lovers" and "The
Rainbow."
> Orwell's (Eric Blair) "Homage
> to Catalonia" certainly belongs
He, and it, are both on the list.
Then there are some other suggestions:
>Ernst Cassirer "Man and the State"
>
>Susan K. Langer "Philosophy in a New Key"
>
>Levy-Strauss "Tristes Tropiques"
>
>I think Foucault's "The Order of Things" belongs
>
>Roland Barthes' "Mythologies"
>
>Ortega Y Gassett "Revolt of the Masses"
>
>Toni Morrison's "The Bluest Eye"
>
>Franz Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth"
>
>C.Wright Mill's "The Power Elite"
>
>Jacques Ellul's "Propagandas"
>
>Michael Harrington's "Socialism" and "The New American Poverty"
>
>E.L. Doctorow's "Ragtime" (minimum)
>
>Arnold Toynbee's "A Study of History (10 vols)"
>
>Heinrich Boll (Nobel Laureate) "Ich Bin Nicht Stiller"
>
>Naom Chomsky's "Syntactic Structures" (at least)
>
>Lev Vygotsky's "Thinking and Speaking" and "Language and Society"
>
>John Dewey's "Democracy and Education," "Experience and Nature," "How We
>Think" (only one of dewey's major works was published before 1900)
Some of these have been considered, some haven't. Sometimes the author has
been picked but not the work you suggest. Chomsky, for example, wouldn't
really qualify for his work in linguistics. but I've included some of his
social commentary.
At one point I had Eco and Derrida and Bakhtin on the list, only to remove them
because I thought that neither literary theory or literary criticism should be
included.
> and these dont really touch works
> by the likes of Gabriel Marquez
> ("100 Years of Solitude"), Isabel
> Allende, Miguel Unamuno, and others...
Marquez is on the list, not the others you mention.
>its a good list.
Thanks. I consider it to be a work in progress.
> if i had one criticism it is that, with
> the explosion of knowledge and
> understanding of non-european
> writers and works in the century,
> so few of those authors or works
> make your (our) list...
This is a valid point.
But the list was started with the intent of making a somewhat more inclusive
list of the Western Canon.
Most of these lists are made up by exclusively literary people, and they tend
to leave out the more modern social scientists, economists, philosophers, etc.
That, in that context, is what I mean by "inclusive."
Most of the non-European writers you speak of have become well-known fairly
recently, and I'm trying not to include authors who are too overtly trendy.
(I'm actually surprised that no one has mentioned the omission of Pynchon.)
Tom Moran
xyz
jimC <jcoal...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:95hoc9$ipe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> My cousin, and Arnie and I had once had great sport with a loquacious
> deejay in New York named Danny Stiles whom Arnie loathed. We
> called him up and identified ourselves as Trotsky and Beria,
> living on the Upper West Side. So he announced on the air that he'd
> had a request from "Trotsky and Beria, living *right here* in
> New York City," probably unaware of what he was saying. Arnie
> thought it was a measure of how few people listened to
> Danny Stiles that he still had a job the next night.
Omg! He's still around, on WNYC (npr) Saturday afternoons. I can't change
the station fast enough when I hear his annoying reminiscences. I'd assumed
older people liked him, but it's good to hear he got on that 80 year old
guy's nerves just as much as he does on mine. Ugghh.
Irina
Fiona Webster
> No short stories? That would
> explain your exclusion of Kafka's
> "Metamorphosis," Joyce's
> _Dubliners_, as well as
> Chekhov's, Calvino's, and Borges's
> short stories.
Tom Moran replied:
> You're right. No short stories.
Would you care to explain why?
--Fiona
Feuillade
> Irina observed:
> Tom Moran replied:
It's completely arbitrary, to be perfectly honest with you, based on a desire
to keep the list manageable.
I had already decided to omit scientific and mathematical works. Then I
decided to omit lyric poets. The the short stories had to go.
All these decisions were made in order to keep the list manageable. As it is
the list (which originally started with Homer) had to be split up into three
separate lists, because it was getting too unwieldy.
So instead of one 28-page single-spaced list, there are three lists:
1) The Great Books from Homer to 1800
2) The Great Books of the 19th Century
3) The Great Books of the 20th Century
If you put in everything, the next thing you know you have a 100-page list,
which would be a bit much.
It's nothing against short stories. In fact, one of these days I may put
together a short stories and a lyric poets list. But first things first.
Tom Moran
Stephen Hayes
Feuillade wrote in a message to All:
F> From: feui...@aol.com (Feuillade)
F> I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the
F> 20th Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm
F> posting it here for questions and comments.
F> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric
F> poetry.
F> Feel free to e-mail your questions and comments
Ok, so much for the rules, but what about the criteria?
For example, you include
F> Adolf Hitler (1889-1945):
F> Mein Kampf
but omit Tolkien's "Lord of the rings".
Keep well
Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.fmlynet.org
Feuillade
> Feuillade wrote in a message to All:
>> From: feui...@aol.com (Feuillade)
>> First the rules: no books on science
>> or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
>> Feel free to e-mail your questions
>> and comments
> Ok, so much for the rules, but
> what about the criteria?
> For example, you include
>> Adolf Hitler (1889-1945):
>> Mein Kampf
> but omit Tolkien's "Lord of the rings".
Hitler was a (relatively) late inclusion. Considering what an impact the book
and its ideas had on the 20th Century, I thought it should be included.
I would still omit Tolkein on the grounds that his work doesn't exactly fit the
rules. I would omit most if not all science fiction for the same reason.
Tom Moran
Meg Worley
Tom writes:
>Hitler was a (relatively) late inclusion. Considering what an impact the book
>and its ideas had on the 20th Century, I thought it should be included.
What's the appeal of making these lists?
ObBook: Amanshauser's *List der Illusionen*
Rage away,
meg
--
Meg Worley _._ m...@steam.stanford.edu _._ Comparatively Literate
George Acton
>
> I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the 20th
> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it here for
> questions and comments.
>
> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
>
> Feel free to e-mail your questions and comments
>
categorized them, into novels, philosophy, etc.
Brave New World belongs, but a collection of Huxley essays
might be added to document the perspectives of a unique mind.
I don't know if there's a single collection that has all the
themes.
If you relent on short stories, the Hemingway of In Our Time
is far better than the posturing of Farewell to Arms and For Whom
the Bell Tolls. The opening chapters of Farewell to Arms have
the same faux simplicity, though, the verbal equivalent of a
Cezanne still life.
Its a subjective call, but Catcher in the Rye for the voice
and characterization. No Big Ideas, but wonderful.
Of Camus's work, The Fall might be preferable to The Stranger.
James Watson, for The Double Helix? Capote for In Cold Blood?
Spengler is a terrific offbeat choice. A nutcase, but far more
interesting than Toynbee.
--George Acton
Feuillade
> Feuillade wrote:
>>
>> I've recently been working on a
>> Great Books list, and found that
>> the 20th Century segment of it
>> was getting a little long. So I'm
>> posting it here for questions
>> and comments.
>> First the rules: no books on
>> science or mathematics. No
>> lyric poetry.
>> Feel free to e-mail your questions
>> and comments
> It would be easier to keep in mind
> what is on the list if you
> categorized them, into
> novels, philosophy, etc.
I could do it that way, but I prefer to keep it in chronological order by
author's date of birth.
> Brave New World belongs, but
> a collection of Huxley essays
> might be added to document
> the perspectives of a unique mind.
> I don't know if there's a single
> collection that has all the
> themes.
Essay collections don't really qualify, although one or two essays did sort of
sneak in.
If I were to include an essay collection, it would be much more likely to be
Orwell than Huxley.
> If you relent on short stories,
> the Hemingway of In Our Time
> is far better than the posturing
> of Farewell to Arms and For Whom
> the Bell Tolls. The opening chapters
> of Farewell to Arms have
> the same faux simplicity, though,
> the verbal equivalent of a
> Cezanne still life.
You definitely have a point, and I stalled on putting Hemingway on the list for
exactly that reason. But I think I have to stick with the "no short
stories"rule.
> Its a subjective call, but Catcher in
> the Rye for the voice
> and characterization. No Big Ideas,
> but wonderful.
I passed on Salinger.
> Of Camus's work, The Fall might
> be preferable to The Stranger.
Can't say I agree.
> James Watson, for The Double Helix?
No science rule.
> Capote for In Cold Blood?
Possibly.
> Spengler is a terrific offbeat choice.
> A nutcase, but far more
> interesting than Toynbee.
I like it.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
>Tom writes:
>> Hitler was a (relatively) late
>> inclusion. Considering what
>> an impact the book and its
>> ideas had on the 20th Century,
>> I thought it should be included.
> What's the appeal of making these lists?
Can't speak for anyone else, but I looked at the other lists out there and
thought that I could do better.
And, with all due immodesty, I think my list is a little bit better anbd more
inclusive than Adler's or Fadiman's. Maybe not as much so as Bloom's, but then
he throws in everything but the kitchen sink...
Tom Moran
George Acton
>
> George Acton gac...@softdisk.com writes:
>
> > Feuillade wrote:
> >>
> >> I've recently been working on a
> >> Great Books list, and found that
> >> the 20th Century segment of it
> >> was getting a little long. So I'm
> >> posting it here for questions
> >> and comments.
>
> >> First the rules: no books on
> >> science or mathematics. No
> >> lyric poetry.
>
> >> Feel free to e-mail your questions
> >> and comments
>
>
> > Its a subjective call, but Catcher in
> > the Rye for the voice
> > and characterization. No Big Ideas,
> > but wonderful.
>
> I passed on Salinger.
Most of the points in favor of Confederacy of Dunces hold for
Catcher. Confederacy of Dunces is one of the funniest books I've
ever read, but it is a marginal entry.
...
> > James Watson, for The Double Helix?
>
> No science rule.
It isn't a science book. It's a memoir of science as a social
activity. Science is a characteristic feature of the Twentieth
Century. There is no reason why it has to be commemorated by a
Great Book, but Double Helix is good. And it starts with the
advantage of a perfect first sentence.
Feynmann is another possibility.
--George Acton
Feuillade
> Feuillade wrote:
>>
>> George Acton gac...@softdisk.com writes:
>>
>> > Feuillade wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've recently been working on a
>> >> Great Books list, and found that
>> >> the 20th Century segment of it
>> >> was getting a little long. So I'm
>> >> posting it here for questions
>> >> and comments.
>>
>> >> First the rules: no books on
>> >> science or mathematics. No
>> >> lyric poetry.
>>
>> >> Feel free to e-mail your questions
>> >> and comments
>>
>...
>>
>> > Its a subjective call, but Catcher in
>> > the Rye for the voice
>> > and characterization. No Big Ideas,
>> > but wonderful.
>>
>> I passed on Salinger.
>
>Most of the points in favor of Confederacy of Dunces hold for
>Catcher. Confederacy of Dunces is one of the funniest books I've
>ever read, but it is a marginal entry.
I agree that Confederacy of Dunces is tenuous (or that it may seem so now -- I
have a feeling it will seem more and more permanent as time goes on). but I'm
still not convinced about Salinger.
>...
>> > James Watson, for The Double Helix?
>>
>> No science rule.
>
>It isn't a science book. It's a memoir of science as a social
>activity. Science is a characteristic feature of the Twentieth
>Century. There is no reason why it has to be commemorated by a
>Great Book, but Double Helix is good. And it starts with the
>advantage of a perfect first sentence.
> Feynmann is another possibility.
I may look for it, but I doubt I'll include it.
Tom Moran
Irina
feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
> Irina iri...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> > feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
> >> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
> >> Mrs. Warren's Profession
> >> Arms and the Man
> >> Candida
> >> Caesar and Cleopatra
> >> Man and Superman
> >> Major Barbara
> >> Pygmalion
> >> Heartbreak House
> >> Saint Joan
>
> > I realize you had to stop somewhere,
> > but I'd've included "Don Juan in
> > Hell."
>
> Since it's part of a longer work (isn't it one act of Back to
Methusaleh?), I
> didn't think it quite fit.
I didn't realize it was part of something else -- I'm pretty sure it's
more than one act.
> >> E.M. Forster (1879-1970):
> >> Howard's End
> >> A Passage to India
>
> > Are you serious?
>
> Yes. Why would you think I wasn't?
Forster is sooo not as good as the rest of the authors you list. Of
course, my own list wouldn't be complete w/o Mary McCarthy, J. D.
Salinger, Samuel Beckett, Eugene Ionesco, Gustave Flaubert, and _Lucky
Jim_, which I assume you find unworthy, so c'est la vie.
Irina
m...@steam.stanford.edu (Meg Worley) wrote:
>
> Tom writes:
> >Hitler was a (relatively) late inclusion. Considering what an impact
the book
> >and its ideas had on the 20th Century, I thought it should be
included.
>
> What's the appeal of making these lists?
It's fun. Have you ever played the party game _Outburst_?
Jorn Barger
> There is no reason why it has to be commemorated by a
> Great Book, but Double Helix is good. And it starts with the
> advantage of a perfect first sentence.
If I remember aright "I have never seen Francis Crick in a modest mood"?
And Crick's threatened response was to begin "Jim Watson was never good
with his hands."
--
http://www.robotwisdom.com/ "Relentlessly intelligent
yet playful, polymathic in scope of interests, minimalist
but user-friendly design." --Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
Kenny Young
last one he wrote- The biographers moustach?
But what about Robert Graves, and William Golding
Francis Muir
Jorn Barger wrote:
>
> George Acton <gac...@softdisk.com> wrote:
> > There is no reason why it has to be commemorated by a
> > Great Book, but Double Helix is good. And it starts with the
> > advantage of a perfect first sentence.
>
> If I remember aright "I have never seen Francis Crick in a modest mood"?
>
> And Crick's threatened response was to begin "Jim Watson was never good
> with his hands."
Presumably the Mouseberger kept her trap shut.
George Acton
Proust and Joyce.
The same is apparently he case for James, even though some of the
later work like Golden Bowl came after 1900, IIRC.
Beckett is on the list.
--George Acton
Feuillade
> feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>> Irina iri...@my-deja.com writes:
>>> feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>>>> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
>>>> Mrs. Warren's Profession
>>>> Arms and the Man
>>>> Candida
>>>> Caesar and Cleopatra
>>>> Man and Superman
>>>> Major Barbara
>>>> Pygmalion
>>>> Heartbreak House
>>>> Saint Joan
>>> I realize you had to stop somewhere,
>>> but I'd've included "Don Juan in
>>> Hell."
>> Since it's part of a longer work
>> (isn't it one act of Back to
>> Methusaleh?), I didn't think it
>> quite fit.
> I didn't realize it was part of
> something else -- I'm pretty
> sure it's more than one act.
Actually, we're both wrong.
"Don Juan in Hell" is the third act of "Man and Superman" -- not "Back to
Methusaleh" as I had previously stated. It is, however, one act.
>>>> E.M. Forster (1879-1970):
>>>> Howard's End
>>>> A Passage to India
>>> Are you serious?
>> Yes. Why would you think I wasn't?
> Forster is sooo not as good as the
> rest of the authors you list.
E.M. Forster is pretty universally considered one of the finest novelists of
the past century. Having read most of if not all of his books (I passed on
"Maurice"), I concur with that assessment.
> Of course, my own list wouldn't
> be complete w/o Mary McCarthy, [...]
Never wrote anything close to a great book.
> J. D. Salinger, [...]
His best work is in the short story, and thus doesn't qualify.
> Samuel Beckett,
He's on the list (as a playwright, not as a writer of fiction, although I may
amend that).
> Eugene Ionesco,
Perhaps. The list has rather too many playwrights as it is, though.
> Gustave Flaubert,
He's on the list. The 19th Century list.
> and _Lucky Jim_, which I assume
> you find unworthy, so c'est la vie.
I've read quite a bit of Amis, as well as the recent biography and Fussell's
book about him, but I don't think he ever wrote anything quite good enough to
be on a list like this. I would put "Lucky Jim" with John Osborne's "Look Back
in Anger." Good, but not good enough. I could easily be wrong, though.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
> or indeed other of kingsley amis'
> books? Old devils? for an example,
> or the last one he wrote- The
> biographers moustach?
I've tried to avoid books that are *too* recent. But I may give "Old Devils" a
try.
> But what about Robert Graves, [...]
He's on the list, for "Goodbye to All That"
> and William Golding
He's not. I have to admit (somewhat ruefully) that I have an innate distaste
for books that one is forced to read in school.
"Silas Marner" didn't make the cut either. :)
Tom Moran
Feuillade
> Flaubert is Nineteenth Century, or
> he'd belong on any list that includes
> Proust and Joyce.
As I've said, there is a 19th Century list, and Flaubert is on it.
> The same is apparently he case
> for James, even though some of
> the later work like Golden Bowl
> came after 1900,
Henry James is on both lists -- 19th and 20th Century.
> Beckett is on the list.
Yes. As a playwright.
I'm still tinkering with the list, however. And I should probably post the
other two lists:
The Great Books from Homer to 1800
The Great Books of the 19th Century
The list got too long after a while. Had to cut it into thirds.
Tom Moran
erilar
feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
> He's not. I have to admit (somewhat ruefully) that I have an innate
> distaste
> for books that one is forced to read in school.
>
> "Silas Marner" didn't make the cut either. :)
I was forced to teach that once. It's very difficult to teach a class of
teenagers to not hate a book you don't care much for yourself...
--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Meg Worley
I asked:
>> What's the appeal of making these lists?
Irina writes:
>It's fun. Have you ever played the party game _Outburst_?
Nope, never heard of it. Is it all about making lists?
Francis Muir
War would make a natutal break since even those who wrote both before
and after were so profoundly affected that they were, in effect,
different people.
Francis Muir
Meg Worley wrote:
>
> I asked:
> >> What's the appeal of making these lists?
>
> Irina writes:
> >It's fun. Have you ever played the party game _Outburst_?
>
> Nope, never heard of it. Is it all about making lists?
I'm feeling listless today -- anyone feel like an enlivening brekkie tomorrow?
ted samsel
>
> I asked:
> >> What's the appeal of making these lists?
>
> Irina writes:
> >It's fun. Have you ever played the party game _Outburst_?
>
> Nope, never heard of it. Is it all about making lists?
ObWateringDevice: The Lister Bag.
--
TBSa...@infi.net
http://home.infi.net/~tbsamsel/
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow (1914-1999)
THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
Richard Harter
wrote:
>Meg Worley wrote:
>>
>> I asked:
>> >> What's the appeal of making these lists?
>>
>> Irina writes:
>> >It's fun. Have you ever played the party game _Outburst_?
>>
>> Nope, never heard of it. Is it all about making lists?
>
>ObWateringDevice: The Lister Bag.
And would Moran's feminine counterpart be a listerine?
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net,
http://www.tiac.net/users/cri
Economists are people who work with numbers
but don't have the personality to be accountants.
Maureen Scobie
>
> The real problem is that literature pays no mind to centuries. The Great
> War would make a natutal break since even those who wrote both before
> and after were so profoundly affected that they were, in effect,
> different people.
This may go some way to explaining the double strand nature of _The
Magic Mountain_ which Thomas Mann started to write before the war,
finishing it some years after the war's end.
Three hundred pages read so far. The hardest slog was the "Research"
chapter (not recommended for Valentine's Day reading.)
Maureen
Francis Muir
I am not, repeat: NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT; going to read Thomas Mann.
Feuillade
>Maureen Scobie wrote:
>> Francis Muir wrote:
Your loss, toots.
Tom Moran
mot...@webtv.net
What a stodgy list and thread this one turned out to be!!
My vote is for "archy and mehitabel" by Don Marquis.
Also good was "The Enormous Room" by e.e. cummings.
And a few minor masterpieces by James Stephens, author of "The Crock of
Gold".
Moe Tychos
. . .. .
George Acton
I can't define modernism, but I know it when I see it, and Magic
Mountain is definitely modernist.
There is some reason to question the Great War as a dividing
line for culchah. Most of the big developments had occurred in
the Belle Epoque, the ferment of which is the bacground for the film
Jules and Jim. In painting, Picasso did the Demoiselles (sp?)
well before 1910, and he and Braque were into Analytical Cubism
before the war. The Rite of Spring riot was pre-war. Joyce spent
some time in Paris around 1905 and had started Ulysses. Proust had
the idea for his work and published one or two of the novels before
the war. M. Proust wasn't going to let a trivial incident like a war
get in the way of the flow of time.
So perhaps the war as a formative artistic event is more
due to the self-dramatization of Stein, Hemingway and Fitzgerald.
Many artists weren't part of a Lost Generation -- they carried on
the programs and agends that had been sketched in the previous
decade.
The books on the list that are concerned with polics are,
of course, unthinkable without the events connected with the war.
--George Acton
smw
Maureen Scobie wrote:
> Francis Muir wrote:
> >
> > The real problem is that literature pays no mind to centuries. The Great
> > War would make a natutal break since even those who wrote both before
> > and after were so profoundly affected that they were, in effect,
> > different people.
>
> This may go some way to explaining the double strand nature of _The
> Magic Mountain_ which Thomas Mann started to write before the war,
> finishing it some years after the war's end.
Nah. As a novelist, Mann never manages to get out of the 19th century.
s
G.F.W.
and 'non' separately to avoid what seems a hodge-
podge? apples and oranges!! gfw
Maureen Scobie
Never mind. I shall still adore you and covet your Nutmeg. I see
dangling on your sleeve the hearts of Austen, Peacock, Surtees,
Fitzgerald, and Zuleika.
I shall continue on my wayward way feverishly following the testy
tubercules. Tuberculosis in Switzerland at dawn and tuberculosis in
Africa at dusk (John Le Carre's _The Constant Gardener_.
Maureen
Maureen Scobie
That may well be where my bones will be interred before I finish the
novel!
A friend who is writing another book on Mann thinks it hilarious that I
should read Mann "for pleasure."
Maureen
jimC
Thomas Mann is good for insomnia, but I don't remember anything
difficult
about _Magic Mountain_. (Did it tweak emotional chords?) Haven't
quite kept up with TGBotTC developments here. If Tom included him,
I may have to review my compliment for his inclusion of Harold Pinter.
jimC
Feuillade
> If you're listing Great Books why
> plays and poems?
Because it wold be silly to have a Great Books list without, say, "Hamlet" on
it.
But I exempted poems, arbitrarily, except for epic poetry.
> Why not list fiction and 'non'
> separately to avoid what seems
> a hodge-podge? apples and oranges!!
Perhaps. But I prefer the chronological approach.
And it's my list. :)
Tom Moran
jimC
Maureen Scobie wrote:
>
> jimC wrote:
> >
> > Maureen Scobie wrote:
> > >
> > > Francis Muir wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The real problem is that literature pays no mind to centuries. The Great
> > > > War would make a natutal break since even those who wrote both before
> > > > and after were so profoundly affected that they were, in effect,
> > > > different people.
> > >
> > > This may go some way to explaining the double strand nature of _The
> > > Magic Mountain_ which Thomas Mann started to write before the war,
> > > finishing it some years after the war's end.
> > > Three hundred pages read so far. The hardest slog was the "Research"
> > > chapter (not recommended for Valentine's Day reading.)
> >
> > Thomas Mann is good for insomnia, but I don't remember anything
> > difficult
> > about _Magic Mountain_. (Did it tweak emotional chords?)
> It's not a difficult read. It's just so damn far up the mountain and
> there is so little time for reading. Hans Castorp's relentless visits to
> dying patients and my associating them with the contemporary hospice
> practice accounts for the personal tweaking.
>
> Haven't
> > quite kept up with TGBotTC developments here. If Tom included him,
> > I may have to review my compliment for his inclusion of Harold Pinter.
>
> I don't remember whether Mann was on the list or not. He was dropped in
> when I flew by and spotted Francis cruising around the thread. (I've
> been pulling his chain this week. Of course, I must cease and become
> vairry sairrious.)
> Mann came up originally as part of a chain of threads: music Schumann
> or Schubert, Shakespeare, Silvia, Silvi, Giacomo Leopardi, Thomas Mann.
> When I finish reading _The Magic Mountain_ I should be able to close the
> circle because a friend, on Saturday night, played some music/German
> lieder by Hans Hotter saying that one of these songs features in _The
> Magic Mountain_. I would rather you did not tell me which one because I
> would like to find it myself.
If it's the song I think you have in mind, you'll have to wait until
near
the end to find out, but in the meantime try not to think of trees to be
under in Berlin.
I don't remember Hans Hotter. It was kalter up there.
ObSong: The Drifters, "Up on the Roof"
jimC
jde...@my-deja.com
pet...@ms.com wrote:
> In article <95p4gc$687$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> jde...@my-deja.com wrote:
> whom the war was little more
>
> >
> > Gertrude a gent? In her dreams, I suppose.
> >
> > J. Del Col
> >
>
> The people who drove ambulances in the Great War were known,
> generically, as Gentleman Volunteers. And so to the extent that
> GS and ABT drove an ambulance, I suppose you could call them
> Gents.
>
But did she visit the Gents when nature called?
J. Del Col
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
jde...@my-deja.com
pet...@ms.com wrote:
> In article <3A7F7A...@softdisk.com>,
> gac...@softdisk.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I can't define modernism, but I know it when I see it, and Magic
> > Mountain is definitely modernist.
> > There is some reason to question the Great War as a dividing
> > line for culchah. Most of the big developments had occurred in
> > the Belle Epoque, the ferment of which is the bacground for the film
> > Jules and Jim. In painting, Picasso did the Demoiselles (sp?)
> > well before 1910, and he and Braque were into Analytical Cubism
And was deliberately staged by members of the Jockey Club.
At its next performance, SdP was enthusiastically
received.
Francis Muir
Meg Worley wrote:
>
> Of Outburst, Irina writes:
> >Yes, kind of. You divide into two teams (the more people the better),
> >one side reads a question -- for ex., list some famous twentieth century
> >artists -- and the other team has one minute to shout out names.
> >Someone from the questioning team checks off all the names that are also
> >on the back of the card -- the more answers coincide, the more points
> >you get.
>
> Ah, like the game I played as a tyke, Treasure Chest. Or
> Family Feud, for moderns.
>
> ObBook: *Waterless Mountain*, which I got for xmas the same
> year that we played lots of Treasure Chest.
Anyone else remember Dumb Crambo?
pet...@ms.com
"In 1924 [Erik] Satie wrote "Relache" for the Ballets Suedois,
Diaghilev's arch rival. This was a Dadaist production, including an
entr'acte film by Rene Clair and Picabia - the title itself was a pun:
relache meaning the theatre is closed. Since the opening was delayed,
and a genuine Relache posted on the theatre doors, the first night crowd
- accustomed to the double-dealing Dadaists - thought the notice was a
stunt and attempted to break into the empty theatre. The police had to
be called. They had to be called again for the legitimate opening night.
Once more the audience reaction was an uproar of counterbalanced booing
and applause: Satie had achieved another "succes de scandale." And when
Satie presented "Socrate" he told the audience, "Those who do not
understand are asked to assume an attitude of submissiveness and
inferiority."
From the Crazy Years; Paris in the Twenties by William Wiser
Pjk
mot...@webtv.net
And I nominate for inclusion:
Beaumont Newhall's The History of Photography.
Htn963
>The House of Mirth
>The Age of Innocence
and Ethan Frome
WeBeDaBoyz
Irina <iri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:95mmrs$3h2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <20010202182729...@ng-cs1.aol.com>,
> feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
> > Irina iri...@my-deja.com writes:
> >
> > > feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>
> > >> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
> > >> Mrs. Warren's Profession
> > >> Arms and the Man
> > >> Candida
> > >> Caesar and Cleopatra
> > >> Man and Superman
> > >> Major Barbara
> > >> Pygmalion
> > >> Heartbreak House
> > >> Saint Joan
> >
> > > I realize you had to stop somewhere,
> > > but I'd've included "Don Juan in
> > > Hell."
> >
> > Since it's part of a longer work (isn't it one act of Back to
> Methusaleh?), I
> > didn't think it quite fit.
>
> I didn't realize it was part of something else -- I'm pretty sure it's
> more than one act.
>
"Don Juan In Hell" IS on the list -- it is of course in "Man and Superman".
(John Tanner -- Juan Tenorio)
> > /
WeBeDaBoyz
"Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)" list
which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
Kobo Abe, Woman In The Dunes
Chinua Achebe, Man of the People, Things Fall Apart
Benedict Anderson, Imagined Communities
Perry Anderson, Passages fromAntiquity to Feudalism, Lineages of the
Absolutist State
Bakhtin, The Dialogic Imagination
Amiri Baraka, Dutchman
Georges Bataille, Erotism
Julian Benda, The Treason of the Intellectuals
Walter Benjamin, The Arcades Project
Edward Bernays, Propaganda
Bruno Bettleheim, The Uses of Enchantment
Edward Bond, Lear, The Sea
Tadeuz Borowski, This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen
Ferdinand Braudel, Civilization & Capitalism
Andre Breton, Mad Love
Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities, The Baron in the Trees, If On A Winter's
Night
A Traveller
Karel Capek, RUR, The Makropolus Thing
Jose Cela, The Hive, The New Adventures and Misadventures of Lazarillo de
Tormes, The Family of Pascal Duarte
Ozamu Dazai, No Longer Human
Jacques Derrida, Of Grammatology
Mircea Eliade, Myth and Reality, Shamanism
Max Frisch, The Fire Raisers, Andorra
Frederico Garcia Lorca, The House of Bernarda Alba, Blood Wedding
Andre Gide, The Immoralist, The Counterfeiters
Maksim Gorky, The Lower Depths
Jean Genet, The Maids, The Balcony, The Blacks
Juan Goyistolo, Marks of Identity, Landscape After a Battle
Jaroslav Hasek, The Good Soldier Svejk
Bohumil Hrabal, I Served the king of England
Zora Neale Hurston, Their Eyes Were Watching God, Mules and Men
Eugene Ionesco, Rhinosceros
CLR James, The Black Jacobins
Alfred Jarry, Ubu Roi
Tony Kushner, Angels In America
Par Lagerkvist, The Dwarf, The Hangman
Georges Lefebre, The French Revolution
Lucien Lefevre. The Problem of Unbelief in the XVIIth Century
Alexander Lernet-Holenia, The Resurrection of Maltravers
Doris Lessing, The Golden Notebook
Primo Levi, If Not Now, When? The Periodic Table
Mario Vargas Llosa, Aunt Julia and the Scriptwriter
Maria Antonietta Macciocchi, Cara Eleonora
Marshal MacLuhan, Understanding Media
Andre Malraux, Man's Fate, Napoleon par lui-meme
Marcel Mauss, The Gift
Christian Metz, the Imaginary Signifier
Jules Michelet, Witchcraft, Sorcery and Superstition
Alberto Moravia, La Vita Interiore, The Conformist
Harry Mulisch, The Discovery of Heaven
Heiner Muller, Hamlet Machine
Ngugi, Petals of Blood
Kenzaburo Oe, Hiroshima Notes
Giuseppe Pontiggia, Vite di uomini non illustri
Leo Perutz, The Marquis of Bolivar
Nicos Poulantzas, Fascism and Dictatorship
Vladimir Propp, Morphology of the Fairytale
Raymond Radiguet, Count Orgel's Ball
Gregor von Rezzori, Memoirs of an Anti-Semite
Paul Ricoeur, History and Truth
Angelo Maria Ripellino, Magic Prague
Alain Robbe-Grillet, The Labyrinth
Walter Rodney, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa
Edward Said, Orientalism
Peter Schaeffer, Equus, Amadeus
Bruno Schulz, The Street of Crocodiles
Leonardo Sciascia, Candido, The Wine Dark Sea, The Knight and Death
Ignazio Silone, Bread and Wine
Susan Sontag, Against Interpretation
Piero Sraffa, Produzioni di merci a mezzo di merci
Italo Svevo, The Confessions of Zeno
Andrej Szczpiorski, A Mass for Arras, The Beautiful Mrs. Siedenman
EP Thompson, The Making of the English Working Class
Peter Weiss, Marat/Sade
Richard Wright, Native Son, Black Boy, American Hunger
The Autobiography of Malcolm X
Francis Yates, Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, The Art of Memory
Marguerite Yourcenar, Memoirs of Hadrian, L'Oeuvre En Noir
Feuillade <feui...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010201230437...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that the 20th
> Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm posting it here
for
> questions and comments.
>
> First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric poetry.
>
> Feel free to e-mail your questions and comments
>
> Here's the list:
>
> VI: The Twentieth Century
>
> Sir James George Frazer (1854-1941):
> The Golden Bough
>
> Sigmund Freud (1856-1939):
> The Interpretation of Dreams
> The Psychopathology of Everyday Life
> Civilization and Its Discontents
> Totem and Taboo
> Moses and Monotheism
>
> George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950):
> Mrs. Warren's Profession
> Arms and the Man
> Candida
> Caesar and Cleopatra
> Man and Superman
> Major Barbara
> Pygmalion
> Heartbreak House
> Saint Joan
>
> Joseph Conrad (1857-1924):
> Lord Jim
> Heart of Darkness
> Nostromo
>
> Thorstein Veblen (1857-1929):
> The Theory of the Leisure Class
>
> Ferdinand de Saussure (1857-1913):
> Course in General Linguistics
>
> J.A. Hobson (1858-1940):
> Imperialism
>
> Edmund Husserl (1859-1938):
> Logical Investigations
> Ideas: General Introduction to Pure Phenomenology
> Cartesian Meditations
>
> Henri Bergson (1859-1941):
> Time and Free Will
> Matter and Memory
> Creative Evolution
>
> Anton Chekhov (1860-1904):
> Uncle Vanya
> The Three Sisters
> The Cherry Orchard
>
> Edith Wharton (1862-1937):
> The House of Mirth
> The Age of Innocence
>
> Max Weber (1864-1920):
> The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism
>
> Luigi Pirandello (1867-1936):
> Six Characters in Search of an Author
>
> W.E.B. DuBois (1868-1963):
> The Suppression of the African Slave Trade
> The Souls of Black Folks
> Black Reconstruction
>
> Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (1870-1924):
> The State and Revolution
> Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism
>
> Marcel Proust (1871-1922):
> In Search of Lost Time
>
> John Millington Synge (1871-1909):
> The Playboy of the Western World
>
> Theodore Dreiser (1871-1945):
> Sister Carrie
> An American Tragedy
>
> Bertrand Russell (1872-1970):
> The Problems of Philosophy
> Why I Am Not a Christian
>
> G.E. Moore (1873-1958):
> Principia Ethica
>
> Willa Cather (1873-1947):
> My Antonia
> Death Comes for the Archbishop
>
> Ford Madox Ford (1873-1939):
> The Good Soldier
> Parade's End
>
> Winston Churchill (1874-1965):
> The World Crisis
> The Second World War
>
> Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961):
> The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious
> Answer to Job
>
> Thomas Mann (1875-1955):
> Buddenbrooks
> The Magic Mountain
> Joseph and His Brothers
> Doctor Faustus
>
> Alfred Döblin (1878-1957):
> Berlin Alexanderplatz
>
> Leon Trotsky (1879-1940):
> My Life
> History of the Russian Revolution
>
> E.M. Forster (1879-1970):
> Howard's End
> A Passage to India
>
> Sean O'Casey (1880-1964):
> The Shadow of a Gunman
> Juno and the Paycock
> The Plough and the Stars
>
> Robert Musil (1880-1942):
> The Man Without Qualities
>
> Oswald Spengler (1880-1936):
> The Decline of the West
>
> Lytton Strachey (1880-1932):
> Eminent Victorians
> Queen Victoria
>
> Andrei Bely (1880-1934):
> Petersburg
>
> Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955):
> The Phenomenon of Man
>
> Jacques Maritain (1882-1973):
> Art and Scholasticism
>
> James Joyce (1882-1941):
> A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
> Ulysses
>
> Virginia Woolf (1882-1941):
> Mrs. Dalloway
> To the Lighthouse
> A Room of One's Own
> Orlando
>
> Joseph Alois Schumpeter (1883-1950):
> The Theory of Economic Development
> Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy
>
> Franz Kafka (1883-1924):
> The Trial
> The Castle
>
> John Maynard Keynes (1883-1946):
> The Economic Consequences of the Peace
> The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money
>
> Ivy Compton-Burnett (1884-1969):
> A House and its Head
> A Family and a Fortune
> Elders and Betters
> Manservant and Maidservant
> A God and his Gifts
>
> D.H. Lawrence (1885-1930):
> Sons and Lovers
> The Rainbow
> Women in Love
>
> Hermann Broch (1886-1951):
> The Sleepwalkers
> The Death of Virgil
>
> Eugene O'Neill (1888-1953):
> Mourning Becomes Electra
> The Iceman Cometh
> Long Day's Journey into Night
> A Moon for the Misbegotten
>
> Martin Heidegger (1889-1976):
> Being and Time
> An Introduction to Metaphysics
>
> Adolf Hitler (1889-1945):
> Mein Kampf
>
> Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951):
> Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
> The Blue and Brown Books
> Philosophical Investigations
>
> Arnold Toynbee (1889-1975):
> A Study of History
>
> Boris Leonidovich Pasternak (1890-1960):
> Doctor Zhivago
>
> Mikhail Afanasyevich Bulgakov (1891-1940):
> The Master and Margarita
>
> Henry Miller (1891-1980):
> Tropic of Cancer
> The Colossus of Maroussi
>
> Antonio Gramsci (1891-1937):
> Prison Notebooks
>
> Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971):
> The Nature and Destiny of Man
>
> Aldous Huxley (1894-1963):
> Brave New World
>
> Louis-Ferdinand Céline (1894-1961):
> Journey to the End of the Night
> Death on the Installment Plan
>
> Robert Graves (1895-1985):
> Goodbye to All That
>
> Edmund Wilson (1895-1972):
> To the Finland Station
> Patriotic Gore
>
> F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896-1940):
> The Great Gatsby
> Tender is the Night
>
> John Dos Passos (1896-1970):
> Three Soldiers
> Manhattan Transfer
> U.S.A.
>
> Dawn Powell (1896-1965):
> Angels on Toast
> The Wicked Pavilion
> The Locusts Have No King
> The Golden Spur
>
> William Faulkner (1897-1962):
> The Sound and the Fury
> As I Lay Dying
> Light in August
> Absalom, Absalom!
> The Snopes Trilogy
>
> Thornton Wilder (1897-1975):
> The Bridge of San Luis Rey
> Our Town
> The Skin of Our Teeth
>
> Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956):
> Mother Courage and Her Children
> Galileo
> The Good Woman of Setzuan
> The Caucasian Chalk Circle
>
> Nadezhda Mandelstam (1899-1980):
> Hope Against Hope
> Hope Abandoned
>
> Friedrich Hayek (1899-1992):
> The Road to Serfdom
>
> Leo Strauss (1899-1973):
> On Tyranny
> Natural Right and History
>
> Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961):
> The Sun Also Rises
> A Farewell to Arms
> For Whom the Bell Tolls
>
> Noel Coward (1899-1973):
> Hay Fever
> Private Lives
> Blithe Spirit
>
> Vladimir Nabokov (1899-1977):
> Lolita
> Pale Fire
> Speak, Memory
>
> Gilbert Ryle (1900-1976):
> The Concept of Mind
>
> Jacques Lacan (1901-1981):
> Écrits
>
> Karl Popper (1902-1994):
> The Poverty of Historicism
> The Open Society and Its Enemies
>
> Nathanael West (1903-1940):
> Miss Lonelyhearts
> The Day of the Locust
>
> George Orwell (1903-1950):
> Down and Out in Paris and London
> Homage to Catalonia
> Animal Farm
> 1984
>
> William L. Shirer (1904-1993):
> The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
>
> Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980):
> Nausea
> No Exit
> Being and Nothingness
> The Words
>
> Robert Penn Warren (1905-1989):
> All the King's Men
>
> Albert Speer (1905-1981):
> Inside the Third Reich
>
> Mikhail Aleksandrovich Sholokhov (1905-1984):
> The Quiet Don
>
> Samuel Beckett (1906-1989):
> Waiting for Godot
> Endgame
> Krapp's Last Tape
>
> Hannah Arendt (1906-1975):
> The Origins of Totalitarianism
> Eichmann in Jerusalem
>
> Maurice Merleau-Ponty (1908-1961):
> The Phenomenology of Perception
>
> W.V. Quine (1908-2000):
> Word and Object
>
> A.J. Ayer (1910-1989):
> Language, Truth and Logic
> The Problem of Knowledge
> The Central Questions of Philosophy
>
> J.L. Austin (1911-1960):
> Sense and Sensibilia
> How to Do Things With Words
>
> Tennessee Williams (1911-1983):
> The Glass Menagerie
> A Streetcar Named Desire
> Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
>
> Barbara Tuchman (1912-1989):
> The Guns of August
>
> Albert Camus (1913-1960):
> The Stranger
> The Plague
>
> Saul Bellow (1915- ):
> The Adventures of Augie March
> Herzog
> Humboldt's Gift
>
> Thomas Merton (1915-1968):
> The Seven Storey Mountain
>
> John Hope Franklin (1915- ):
> From Slavery to Freedom
>
> Arthur Miller (1915- ):
> Death of a Salesman
> The Crucible
>
> Shelby Foote (1916- ):
> The Civil War
>
> Page Smith (1917-1995):
> A People's History of the United States
>
> Robert Conquest (1917- ):
> The Great Terror
>
> Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (1918- ):
> One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
> The First Circle
> Cancer Ward
> The Gulag Archipelago
>
> Russell Kirk (1918-1994):
> The Conservative Mind
>
> P.F. Strawson (1919- ):
> Individuals
>
> Howard Zinn (1922- ):
> A People's History of the United States
>
> Roy Medvedev (1925- ):
> Let History Judge
>
> Michel Foucault (1926-1984):
> Madness and Civilization
>
> Gabriel Garcia Márquez (1928- ):
> One Hundred Years of Solitude
>
> Michael Harrington (1928-1989):
> The Other America
>
> Noam Chomsky (1928- ):
> Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies
> Deterring Democracy
>
> Edward Albee (1928- ):
> Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
> A Delicate Balance
> Three Tall Women
>
> Anne Frank (1929-1945):
> The Diary of a Young Girl
>
> Harold Pinter (1930- ):
> The Birthday Party
> The Caretaker
> The Homecoming
> Betrayal
>
> Lorraine Hansberry (1930-1965):
> A Raisin in the Sun
>
> Joe Orton (1933-1967):
> Entertaining Mr. Sloan
> Loot
> What the Butler Saw
>
> Tom Stoppard (1937- ):
> Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
> The Real Thing
> Arcadia
> The Invention of Love
>
> John Kennedy Toole (1937-1969):
> A Confederacy of Dunces
>
> Saul Kripke (1940- ):
> Naming and Necessity
>
> Sam Shepard (1943- ):
> Curse of the Starving Class
> Buried Child
> True West
>
> August Wilson (1945- ):
> Ma Rainey's Black Bottom
> Fences
> The Piano Lesson
>
> David Mamet (1947- ):
> American Buffalo
> Glengarry Glen Ross
>
>
>
>
> Tom Moran
>
> http://members.aol.com/Feuillade/TomMoran.index.html
WeBeDaBoyz
WeBeDaBoyz <Webed...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:95uhpr$bia$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Got so carried away, put a mid-19th century book and one forbidden by your
rules, on this list!
David E. Latane
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, WeBeDaBoyz wrote:
>
>
> "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)" list
> which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
So I take it you haven't read it?
D. Latane
Meg Worley
WeBeDaBoyz wrote:
>> "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)" list
>> which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
HDL writes:
>So I take it you haven't read it?
Down with Ford Pompous Ford! Death to the good soldier!
An end to parade's end! No return to yesterday! Mouris le roy!
And there's an end to it.
Rage away,
meg
--
Meg Worley _._ m...@steam.stanford.edu _._ Comparatively Literate
David E. Latane
On 8 Feb 2001, Meg Worley wrote:
>
> WeBeDaBoyz wrote:
> >> "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)" list
> >> which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
>
> HDL writes:
> >So I take it you haven't read it?
>
> Down with Ford Pompous Ford! Death to the good soldier!
> An end to parade's end! No return to yesterday! Mouris le roy!
>
> And there's an end to it.
>
Nevertheless, it's a lovely book.
D. latane
WeBeDaBoyz
David E. Latane <dla...@mail1.vcu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.03.1010208...@saturno.vcu.edu...
I take it you have a hard time, socially?
Meg Worley
WBDB:
>> > "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)"
>list
>> > which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
HDL:
>> So I take it you haven't read it?
>I take it you have a hard time, socially?
I take it that you did not, despite all the FAQs for Usenet,
read this group long enough to get a sense of the community?
Meg Worley
Of Ford Pompous Ford's *Parade's End*, David writes:
>Nevertheless, it's a lovely book.
While you are a lovely fellow and a pleasure to interlocute,
it is not. It is an awful book. Segue back to the overrated-
authors thread.
Richard Harter
wrote:
>
>WBDB:
>>> > "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)"
>>list
>>> > which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
>
>HDL:
>>> So I take it you haven't read it?
>
>>I take it you have a hard time, socially?
>
>I take it that you did not, despite all the FAQs for Usenet,
>read this group long enough to get a sense of the community?
I would infer the opposite; the exchange of snide comments is a
principal community activity; he's slid into place almost immediately.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net,
http://www.tiac.net/users/cri
Economists are people who work with numbers
but don't have the personality to be accountants.
ar...@my-deja.com
m...@steam.stanford.edu (Meg Worley) wrote:
>
> WeBeDaBoyz wrote:
> >> "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and
plays)" list
> >> which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
>
> HDL writes:
> >So I take it you haven't read it?
>
> Down with Ford Pompous Ford! Death to the good soldier!
> An end to parade's end! No return to yesterday! Mouris le roy!
>
> And there's an end to it.
Is it worse than Babbit? It has been awhile since that book has been
abused on this group.
ted samsel
No harder than you do, Hoss.
--
TBSa...@infi.net
http://home.infi.net/~tbsamsel/
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow (1914-1999)
THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
Francis Muir
Meg Worley wrote:
> WBDB:
> >> > "Parade's End"...Hard to place this on a "greatest books (and plays)"
> >list
> >> > which excludes such widely read and influential works as:
>
> HDL:
> >> So I take it you haven't read it?
>
> >I take it you have a hard time, socially?
>
> I take it that you did not, despite all the FAQs for Usenet,
> read this group long enough to get a sense of the community?
Now let's get this straight; are you saying that you have met or yet heard of
anyone that ever read a FAQ?
Feuillade
> Got so carried away, put a
> mid-19th century book and
> one forbidden by your rules,
> on this list!
More than one.
Tom Moran
David E. Latane
No, ever since I learned that trick of answering a question with a
question I've been accepted everywhere. Now if I could only come up with a
silly nom-de-web.
But seriously, having read them both, do you really feel "Equus" to be
superior to _Parade's End_?
D. latane
WeBeDaBoyz
> "WeBeDaBoyz" Webed...@invalid.invalid writes:
>
> > Got so carried away, put a
> > mid-19th century book and
> > one forbidden by your rules,
> > on this list!
>
> More than one.
>
Interesting. You've got novels, plays, books of philosophy, sociology,
psychology, anthropology, cultural criticism, history, religion, political
science, economics and linguistics, the last, perhaps, bridging to the
forbidden
subjects. You don't have physics, chemistry, astronomy, cosmology, biology
and math.
Which books miss the field vaguely established by the existing list?
("Humanities" + "Social Sciences"?)
By the way -- I'm assuming your list is put forward as a proposition and a
puzzle. Can we distill criteria from it? Can we detect rules? Can we
successfully add and subtract elements without disturbing the whole? "Great"
here is a blank to be filled in and defined by the books on the list. Your
list contains some books which sold millions, continue to sell, generated
endless volumes of criticism and exegesis, were dramatized, filmed,
televised, merchandised and quoted and referred to constantly by subsequent
writers. It contains books about which tens and hundreds of other books have
been written. It contains books which introduced formal innovations in prose
or disseminated previously unpublished data and methods for interpreting it.
Others on the list have inspired few Phd dissertations, no imitations or
parodies, no adaptations by Ruth Prawer Jhabvala, no post-modern reworkings,
no t-shirts and coffee mugs, and as for sales are a blip on the Penguin
Classics chart. What do The Interpretation of Dreams, State and Revolution,
The Second World War, The Guns of August,
The Theory of the Leisure Class, Man and Superman, Glengarry Glen Ross and
Parade's End all have
in common? What quality or combination of qualities do they exhibit which Of
Grammatology, Mimesis, Anti-Oedipus, Doderer's
The Devils, The Second Sex, the memoirs of Charles de Gaulle and Garcia
Lorca's The House
of Bernarda Alba do not possess? What makes these books "Great" and the
others "Not Great"? These questions are raised by your selection of examples
of "Greatness." I assume it is the search for this elusive quality,
Greatness, which is the point of the list.
-WeBeDaBoyz
>
> Tom Moran
>
> http://members.aol.com/Feuillade/TomMoran.index.html
David E. Latane
On 8 Feb 2001, Meg Worley wrote:
>
> Of Ford Pompous Ford's *Parade's End*, David writes:
>
> >Nevertheless, it's a lovely book.
>
> While you are a lovely fellow and a pleasure to interlocute,
> it is not. It is an awful book. Segue back to the overrated-
> authors thread.
Why? Are you sure you don't have this confused with some other book
about parades?
Ob appeal to authority: "Parade's End is a great historical
novel--inaccurate in many details (Ford was hopelessly careless about
facts) but exact in its intricate rendering of the myth of history that
would henceforth describe what happened in England during the first
quarter of this century." (Samuel Hynes, _A War Imagined_).
That's about right for me--yu want to know about English culture at the
time of the war, before and after, you read Parade's End. And Mr. T. is a
great creation.
D. latane
Jim Ward
> Yes, kind of. You divide into two teams (the more people the better),
> one side reads a question -- for ex., list some famous twentieth century
> artists -- and the other team has one minute to shout out names.
> Someone from the questioning team checks off all the names that are also
> on the back of the card -- the more answers coincide, the more points
> you get.
Ooh! Ooh! Let's play. I'll start:
Books with talking cats:
Alice in Wonderland
Jim Ward
> Which rule was that?
> If one goes on the basis of the impact the book and its ideas had on the 20th
> century, surely "Lord of the rings" deserves a place too.
> It seems to have been consistently voted into top place in lists of the great
> books of the 20th century by fans, and seems to have a good deal more literary
> merit than "Mein Kampf".
You're right, there are no rules - it's only personal opinion. He just
doesn't like it. More people nowadays play Dungeons and Dragons than Nazi.
If you include political authors, Mao trumps them all. He's still a presence.
Jim Ward
> What's the appeal of making these lists?
If you make a list, and check it off, you can convince yourself that
your time was worthwhile spent. I myself am leaving behind a sticky trail
of scratched off post-its. You may follow them to my grave, if you
are so inclined. :)
R.A. Leonard
Jim Ward wrote:
> Irina <iri...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ooh! Ooh! Let's play. I'll start:
>
> Books with talking cats:
>
> Alice in Wonderland
Felidae by Akif Pirinēci, published in Germany in 1989 (tr. Ralph Noble,
Fourth Estate 1994)(had a cat as its detective, whose first case involved a
nasty attempt at eugenic engineering)
--
__________________________________________
R.A. Leonard
Ottawa Canada
http://www.raleonard.com/lf/
Anthony Campbell
>
>
>Jim Ward wrote:
>
>> Irina <iri...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ooh! Ooh! Let's play. I'll start:
>>
>> Books with talking cats:
>>
>> Alice in Wonderland
>
>Felidae by Akif Pirinēci, published in Germany in 1989 (tr. Ralph Noble,
>Fourth Estate 1994)(had a cat as its detective, whose first case involved a
>nasty attempt at eugenic engineering)
>
The ultimate must surely be Spoken Cat, by Alexandra Sellers.
(Review on my website:
http://www.cix.co.uk/bookreviews/r/sellers.html)
Anthony
--
Anthony Campbell - running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone)
For electronic books, skeptical essays, and over 100 book reviews, go to:
http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/
"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the
palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." - H.L. Mencken
Bruce McGuffin
> > > I am not, repeat: NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT; going to read Thomas Mann.
Ah, but you should.
Try the short stories, not too much time, and mostly worth it (death
in Venice didn't do much for me).
I've never read Tonio Kroger, but people speak highly of that, and
it's rather short, and humerous (probably in a grim sort of way,
knowing Mann).
Bruce McGuffin
mot...@webtv.net
Dear Francis,
You've posted several times with great insistence that you won't read
Thomas Mann.
And I'm beginning to feel curious enough about your posts to ask you
"Why not?"
Feuillade
> Feuillade <feui...@aol.com> wrote:
>> "WeBeDaBoyz" Webed...@invalid.invalid writes:
>>> Got so carried away, put a
>>> mid-19th century book and
>>> one forbidden by your rules,
>>> on this list!
>> More than one.
> Interesting. You've got novels,
> plays, books of philosophy,
> sociology, psychology,
> anthropology, cultural criticism,
> history, religion, political
> science, economics and linguistics,
> the last, perhaps, bridging to
> the forbidden subjects.
True. Saussure is a little dicey, as is Frege.
> You don't have physics,
> chemistry, astronomy,
> cosmology, biology and math.
This is true.
> Which books miss the field
> vaguely established by the
> existing list? ("Humanities" +
> "Social Sciences"?)
Quite a few. I went onto Deja.Com and found your list. These are the ones
that would not qualify:
> Kobo Abe, Woman In The Dunes
Japanese. This is a Western List.
> Bakhtin, The Dialogic Imagination
I decided to eschew literary criticism and literary theory (otherwise Eco,
Derrida and Bakhtin would all qualify).
I may have bent the rules a little bit to qualify "Patriotic Gore."
> Walter Benjamin, The Arcades Project
> Ferdinand Braudel, Civilization & Capitalism
He's on the list (maybe not on the version you saw).
> Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities, The Baron in the Trees, If On A Winter's
Night
A Traveller
Calvino falls afoul of the "no short stories" rule.
> Ozamu Dazai, No Longer Human
Japanese.
> Jacques Derrida, Of Grammatology
Literary Theory.
> Lucien Lefevre. The Problem of Unbelief in the XVIIth Century
I'd call it literary criticism (but if you know someone who has a hardcover
copy of it that he'd like to sell...)
> Christian Metz, the Imaginary Signifier
Literary Theory
> Jules Michelet, Witchcraft, Sorcery and Superstition
Michelet is on the 19th Century list (although for other books).
> Kenzaburo Oe, Hiroshima Notes
Japanese.
Those are the ones I can think of offhand. Some of the works on your list I'm
not familiar with, some I would definitely exclude on quality grounds, and
others and arguable.
> By the way -- I'm assuming your
> list is put forward as a proposition
> and a puzzle. Can we distill criteria
> from it? Can we detect rules?
I suppose it can be interpreted in any number of ways.
> Can we successfully add
> and subtract elements without
> disturbing the whole?
I suppose that is possible. Someone could take my list as a starting point and
end up with a very different list, depending on their erudition, sensibility
and taste.
> "Great" here is a blank to be filled
> in and defined by the books on the list.
Interesting point.
But I would add the caveat that I am less confident about the 20th Century list
than I am about the other two.
> Your list contains some books
> which sold millions, continue to
> sell, generated endless volumes
> of criticism and exegesis,
> were dramatized, filmed,
> televised, merchandised and
> quoted and referred to constantly
> by subsequent writers. It contains
> books about which tens and
> hundreds of other books have
> been written. It contains books
> which introduced formal innovations
> in prose or disseminated
> previously unpublished data
> and methods for interpreting it.
> Others on the list have inspired
> few Phd dissertations, no imitations
> or parodies, no adaptations by
> Ruth Prawer Jhabvala, no
> post-modern reworkings,
> no t-shirts and coffee mugs, and
> as for sales are a blip on the
> Penguin Classics chart.
You forgot to mention that at least one of them is out of print. :)
> What do The Interpretation of
> Dreams, State and Revolution,
> The Second World War, The Guns
> of August, The Theory of the
> Leisure Class, Man and
> Superman, Glengarry Glen Ross
> and Parade's End all have
> in common?
That would require a longish essay to answer, and I'm rather pressed for time
here.
> What quality or combination of
> qualities do they exhibit which Of
> Grammatology, Mimesis,
> Anti-Oedipus, [...]
We've already established that at the very least the first two don't qualify on
the grounds that they don't mean the criteria.
> [...] Doderer's The Devils, The
> Second Sex, the memoirs of
> Charles de Gaulle and Garcia
> Lorca's The House of Bernarda
> Alba do not possess?
You can make a case for these. Perhaps I am just not familiar with them.
> What makes these books "Great"
> and the others "Not Great"?
> These questions are raised by
> your selection of examples
> of "Greatness." I assume it is
> the search for this elusive quality,
> Greatness, which is the point of the list.
I think the point of the list was that I enjoyed compiling it.
Tom Moran
Feuillade
<snip>
> If you include political authors,
> Mao trumps them all. He's still
> a presence.
He's also Chinese, so he doesn't qualify.
Tom Moran
jimC
> Someone could take my list as a starting point and
> end up with a very different list, depending on their erudition,
> sensibility and taste.
Or one might ignore your list as a starting point and end
up with a similar list, or if possessed of more erudition wind up
with a very different list.
"We fired our western cannon at their forces and they dispersed
quickly."
- Overheard at Presidio de Santa Barbara
jimC
Stephen Hayes
Jim Ward wrote in a message to All:
> Which rule was that?
> If one goes on the basis of the impact the book and its ideas had on
> the 20th
> century, surely "Lord of the rings" deserves a place too.
> It seems to have been consistently voted into top place in lists of
> the great
> books of the 20th century by fans, and seems to have a good deal more
JW> literary
> merit than "Mein Kampf".
JW> You're right, there are no rules - it's only personal opinion. He
JW> just doesn't like it. More people nowadays play Dungeons and
JW> Dragons than Nazi.
JW> If you include political authors, Mao trumps them all. He's still a
JW> presence.
He actually stated the rules - no poetry etc.
What I was asking about was the criteria.
What criteria did he use for including one, and excluding the other.
What criteria do anyone use for selecting "great" books for a list?
Obviously the criteria are part of one's personal opinion, but I'd be
interested in knowing what they are.
Keep well
Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.fmlynet.org
Feuillade
> Feuillade, author of various prescriptives, writes:
>> Someone could take my list
>> as a starting point and
>> end up with a very different
>> list, depending on their erudition,
>> sensibility and taste.
> Or one might ignore your list as
> a starting point and end
> up with a similar list, or if
> possessed of more erudition
> wind up with a very different list.
Not really.
Assuming that we start out with similar if not identical criteria, most Great
Books lists would be more alike than different -- up to about 1800, anyway.
It's only when you get to the 20th Century that the list wold start diverging
radically.
Tom Moran
Stephen Hayes
Feuillade wrote in a message to All:
> If you include political authors,
> Mao trumps them all. He's still
> a presence.
F> He's also Chinese, so he doesn't qualify.
Why on earth not?
Who does qualify?
Only Aryan Uebermenschen like the author of "Mein Kampf"?
I take it your list is therefore "racially correct" by the best Nazi standards?
Heaven forbid that someone of the wrong race should write a "great book".
Feuillade
> Feuillade wrote in a message to All:
>>> If you include political authors,
>>> Mao trumps them all. He's still
>>> a presence.
>> He's also Chinese, so he doesn't qualify.
> Why on earth not?
Because he's Chinese, and thus ineligible for a list of Great Books of the
Western World.
> Who does qualify?
Western writers.
> Only Aryan Uebermenschen like the author of "Mein Kampf"?
I doubt that W.E.B. DuBois qualifies as an Uebermensch, yet he's on the list.
As is Lorraine Hansberry. Both are black.
> I take it your list is therefore
> "racially correct" by the best Nazi
> standards?
It is not.
> Heaven forbid that someone of the
> wrong race should write a "great book".
The list is restricted to Western authors because I do not consider myself
competent to discuss Eastern ones. That list is for someone else to compile.
And I think you know what you can do with your insinuations...
Tom Moran
Jim Ward
>> Who does qualify?
>
>Western writers.
?? Wasn't the thread started with these rules:
1. I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that
the 20th Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm
posting it here for questions and comments.
2. First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric
poetry.
Stephen Hayes
Feuillade wrote in a message to All:
F> From: feui...@aol.com (Feuillade)
F> "Stephen Hayes" Stephen.Hayesp...@fmlynet.org writes:
> Feuillade wrote in a message to All:
>>> If you include political authors,
>>> Mao trumps them all. He's still
>>> a presence.
>> He's also Chinese, so he doesn't qualify.
> Why on earth not?
F> Because he's Chinese, and thus ineligible for a list of Great Books
F> of the Western World.
Check the subject line... you wrote it.
Or do the Chinese not use the Grregorian calendar, and thus are disqualified
since they did not experience the twentieth century?
But perhaps the Bible would qualify - surely parts of it were written during
the Jewish 20th century?
WeBeDaBoyz
> "WeBeDaBoyz" Webed...@invalid.invalid writes:
>
> > Feuillade <feui...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> "WeBeDaBoyz" Webed...@invalid.invalid writes:
>
> >
> > Quite a few. I went onto Deja.Com and found your list. These are the
ones
> that would not qualify:
>
> > Kobo Abe, Woman In The Dunes
>
> Japanese. This is a Western List.
I didn't realize there was a Western-only rule of the list. (Not
very observant of me.) I'm not sure I undertsand the parameters.
>
> > Italo Calvino, Invisible Cities, The Baron in the Trees, If On A
Winter's
> Night
> A Traveller
>
> Calvino falls afoul of the "no short stories" rule.
The three Calvino books I proposed are novels. Novels about kinds of novels.
> > Christian Metz, the Imaginary Signifier
>
> Literary Theory
>
Christian Metz' book is not literary theory, but an application of
psychoanalysis to the study of cinema, or perhaps the study of cinema for
the purposes of elaborating psychoanalysis. It belongs broadly to
anthropology.
> >
> > Kenzaburo Oe, Hiroshima Notes
>
> Japanese.
>
> Those are the ones I can think of offhand. Some of the works on your list
I'm
> not familiar with, some I would definitely exclude on quality grounds, and
> others and arguable.
>
> > By the way -- I'm assuming your
> > list is put forward as a proposition
> > and a puzzle. Can we distill criteria
> > from it? Can we detect rules?
>
> I suppose it can be interpreted in any number of ways.
>
MacLuhanist:
Since the advent of television, writing as a medium has lost
status drastically.
Heathean:
Perhaps greatness in books is associated with the
enlightenment "point of view" and becomes scarce under the hegemony of the
manufactured-edited-visual-media-subjectivity ("the gaze") which usurps it's
function. Suturers trained from birth to suture neither read nor write as
the individual subjects of the humanist paradigm once did.
Williamsite:
Perhaps this marginalization of the later part of the century is
merely the result of the exclusion of the most fashionable genres of that
period (literary criticism and theory, media studies, screenplays) from the
list. The absence of experimental and post-modern novels on the list may
suggest a tacit
prohibition of "genre" fiction, a (blurring) category into which many
prominent experimental and post-modern novels fall.
Average Man On The Street in Pragueist:
Perhaps, judging from your list, one could deduce that Greatness in plays
became, as the century progressed, increasingly difficult to achieve in any
language other than English. Since the 1950s, the West has apparently
produced plays with enough greatness for the list in no other language.
Perhaps this is an illusion having more to do with MacDonald's Happy Meals
than the vitality of the theatre in the anglophone world
Vivendi Board Membrist:
This monopoly English has held on greatness in dramatic writing for
the past fifty years is a reflection of the centralization of production and
the economics of Broadway and London's West End, and certainly the influence
of
the Hollywood Film and Television industry on the development of dramatic
writing in the West. Now, what are we going to do about this....
> > Can we successfully add
> > and subtract elements without
> > disturbing the whole?
>
> I suppose that is possible. Someone could take my list as a starting
point and
> end up with a very different list, depending on their erudition,
sensibility
> and taste.
>
> > "Great" here is a blank to be filled
> > in and defined by the books on the list.
>
> Interesting point.
>
> But I would add the caveat that I am less confident about the 20th Century
list
> than I am about the other two.
>
...
The only case I can make is a list, of course.
Great Books, saints and miracles, coolest shoes, most elegant kitchen
appliances, guardian angels...you can't argue about these things.
Nobody has yet managed to photograph book greatness, but
many people have testified to encounters with it. I personally don't believe
in it, but I still find myself
saying sometimes, "Jesus Christ, what a great book this is."
-- WeBeDaBoyz
P.S.
A list for your consideration.
Some 20th century "Western" Memoirs Better, In A Variety of Ways, Than "Mein
Kampf":
Memoirs, P. Neruda
The Motorcycle Diaries, Guevara
Ake, The Years of Childhood, Soyinka
The Autobiography of Malcolm X
Adventures in the Screen Trade, Goldman
The Looney Bin Trip, Millet
The Future Lasts a Long Time, Althusser
Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman!, Feynman
The Rise & Fall of Palestine, Finklestein
Jim Ward
<Webed...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Nobody has yet managed to photograph book greatness, but
>many people have testified to encounters with it. I personally don't believe
>in it, but I still find myself saying sometimes, "Jesus Christ, what a great book this is."
Photograph book greatness: "Diane Arbus : An Aperture Monograph".
Testify!
jimC
Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
> "WeBeDaBoyz" <Webed...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >Feuillade <feui...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> Japanese. This is a Western List.
> >
> >I didn't realize there was a Western-only rule of the list. (Not
> >very observant of me.) I'm not sure I undertsand the parameters.
> >
>
> By 'Western', Moran really means 'White', and white as in 'Aryan'
> white. He is an obnoxious, prattling, racist.
I wouldn't read much into this ground rule. He likes adding
passageways to his Web site the way Simon Cray liked digging
underground tunnels. I understand the impulse. His Web
site hasn't neglected the East, although he has turned
terribly and inexplicably on Herman Melville.
I'd also lost track of Anna Voog. She's in his neat-o
solipsists' collection. I didn't set a bookmark for his
site, but I did for hers. His link to JailBabes,
which gives new meaning to pen pals, is also not to
be missed. (Vitals include release date.)
jimC
Stephen Hayes
Jim Ward wrote in a message to All:
JW> From: j...@radixDELETEME.net (Jim Ward)
JW> On 11 Feb 2001 06:24:12 GMT, feui...@aol.com (Feuillade) wrote:
>> Who does qualify?
>
>Western writers.
JW> ?? Wasn't the thread started with these rules:
JW> 1. I've recently been working on a Great Books list, and found that
JW> the 20th Century segment of it was getting a little long. So I'm
JW> posting it here for questions and comments.
JW> 2. First the rules: no books on science or mathematics. No lyric
JW> poetry.
Yes - nothing about "only Western writers".
I'm developing a new respect for the cliche "moving the goalposts".
smw
Paul Ilechko wrote:
> "WeBeDaBoyz" <Webed...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >Feuillade <feui...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> Japanese. This is a Western List.
> >
> >I didn't realize there was a Western-only rule of the list. (Not
> >very observant of me.) I'm not sure I undertsand the parameters.
> >
>
> By 'Western', Moran really means 'White', and white as in 'Aryan'
> white. He is an obnoxious, prattling, racist.
Funny, I could have sworn I remembered Freud, Kafka, Arendt, Anne Frank,
and Leo Strauss on that list. Not that I want to ruin a good shallow
insult with facts.
smw
Jim Ward
> I'm developing a new respect for the cliche "moving the goalposts".
I agree! He moved the goalposts. It would be more interesting to me
to see a thread of the best non-Western books of the last century, because
I am ignorant of most of them.
I suggest as a penance he start that list. Feuillade? Your website does
lead with "This page is for people who like to explore when they read."
WeBeDaBoyz
smw <sm...@umich.edu> wrote in message news:3A8937D2...@umich.edu...
>
>
> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
> > "WeBeDaBoyz" <Webed...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > >Feuillade <feui...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >>
> > >> Japanese. This is a Western List.
> > >
> > >I didn't realize there was a Western-only rule of the list. (Not
> > >
> >
> > By 'Western', Moran really means 'White', and white as in 'Aryan'
> > white. He is an obnoxious, prattling, racist.
>
> Funny, I could have sworn I remembered Freud, Kafka, Arendt, Anne Frank,
> and Leo Strauss on that list. Not that I want to ruin a good shallow
> insult with facts.
>
> smw
>
I suspect only adherents of the Nazi doctrine identifying an "alien Asiatic
Jewish race" lurking in disguise among Europeans will be capable of truly
appreciating these "facts."
--WeBeDaBoyz
>