(short) History of western Europe wanted.
Kenneth Tolman
I am going to be traveling through Europe (Greece, Italy, Spain,
Austria, Germany, France) later on this summer, and want to refresh
(and learn) the history of this area. Any suggestions on (relatively
short) books which are fun and readable that give a nice accurate
history would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
TTolman
--
On occasion, listen to your own heart beat, you live yet.
Philip Morgan
tol...@asylum.cs.utah.edu "Kenneth Tolman" writes:
>
>
> I am going to be traveling through Europe (Greece, Italy, Spain,
> Austria, Germany, France) later on this summer, and want to refresh
> (and learn) the history of this area. Any suggestions on (relatively
> short) books which are fun and readable that give a nice accurate
> history would be most appreciated.
>
>
What you want is surely a guide book (e.g. "Let's Go Europe"; Harvard
Student Agencies, Inc.).
The peoples of Greece, Italy, Spain, Austria, Germany, France would be
saddened (but not surprised) by an American's assumption that their
collective history can be found in a short, fun and readable volume.
Have a good trip though .....
Regards
Phil
--
Philip Morgan
ph...@buckden.demon.co.uk
Ton Lenssen
to see what books ("short histories") one recommends in the USA to people who
want to make the European tour. Personnally I think Part III of William H.
McNeill's "History of Western Civilization" (Univ. of Chicago Press) is very
useful, as an introduction. But, then, what does one expect to "see" in Europe?
And how far goes the need to interpret and understand what one sees? I always
wondered what Americans actyally see and what they take home after a visit of,
say, a fortnight in Athena, Rome, perhaps Florence, Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam,
Brussels, Berlin.
Magnus Back
In article <2uo6vo$h...@magus.cs.utah.edu>
tol...@asylum.cs.utah.edu "Kenneth Tolman" writes:
>
>
> I am going to be traveling through Europe (Greece, Italy, Spain,
> Austria, Germany, France) later on this summer, and want to refresh
> (and learn) the history of this area. Any suggestions on (relatively
> short) books which are fun and readable that give a nice accurate
> history would be most appreciated.
>
>
What you want is surely a guide book (e.g. "Let's Go Europe"; Harvard
Student Agencies, Inc.).
The peoples of Greece, Italy, Spain, Austria, Germany, France would be
saddened (but not surprised) by an American's assumption that their
collective history can be found in a short, fun and readable volume.
Well here it is. The short history of Europe.
" Well we lived in that place over there in Europe for some years. In the begining we hunted animals to eat, but that couldn't feed us. Then we started to grow plants to eat, worked better. Lot's of wars and stuff. People dying from plagues, famine and wars which induced plague and famine. One guy thought the earth was round, another one got a bruise on his head from an apple falling on it. It got booring so we took the boat and sailed to the United States. Much better place, big houses and all. Not to men
tion the Mc Donalds food "
/Magnus
---
-"Baldrick define Irony"
-"Well it's a little like goldy and silvery"
Jane Skinner
>[snip] I always wondered what Americans actyally see and what they take home
>Madrid, Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin.
I couldn't resist it: Brussels?? The soulless heart of Eurobureaucracy?
When your hypothetical US tourists could vist London, for example, instead.
Shame on you!
ObBook: Does anybody have a problem remembering whether they've actually
read a well known book? For example, I honestly couldn't say
whether I've read Oliver Twist. I know the plot in detail and
I've read quite a lot of Dicken's books on and off since I was
about 12. Was OT one of them, or has the knowledge of it seeped
in through a sort of process of cultural osmosis from other books,
films, and BBC teatime serialisations?
Jane.
Michael Nist
Only By Fire," which doesn't pretend to be comprehensive.
Instead this great historian allows himself to meander around
and relate the most interesting nuggets of information he has
come across regarding the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.
Although it's certainly a personal indulgence on Manchester's
part, the result is, well, short, fun and readable.
Ton Lenssen
My emphasis was not on Brussels but on " a fortnight". Brussels, though, is not
just the heart of Eurobureaucracy (if
bureaucracies ever have a heart). It once was the capital of the Burgundian
realm. I apologize for not mentioning London. Perhaps you missed the irony of
my message. Living in Amsterdam - one of the finest towns in western Europe -
every day I meet American tourists. They are allways in a hurry, "doing" each
day a town, supposing one can get in touch with the life of half a subcontinent
in a handful of days. I think this - average - American tourist
is very well served - within his fortnight - with the towns I did mention. After
your remarks I still wonder what Americans think of Europe, before or after a
visit. Maybe one should not visit western Europe at all, being the heart of not
just bureaucracy but also of the Inquisition, jesuitism, colonialism,
imperialism, not to speak of fascism? Wouldn't that be consistent with your
opinion?
Ton,
(Amsterdamned)
William Smith
Living in Amsterdam - one of the finest towns in western Europe -
every day I meet American tourists. They are allways in a hurry,
"doing" each day a town, supposing one can get in touch with the
life of half a subcontinent in a handful of days.
There is a book written for college students or those just graduating
from college called BLOWING THROUGH EUROPE. It is written by a couple
of people who were writers or editors of a college newspaper, possibly
the Harvard Crimson. It is a very funny book and might actually be
a useful guide for the intended audience. Only covers the major
cities and list bars, night clubs, coffee shops.
They recommend some museums because they are good, some because they
are expected and should be "blown through", and some to skip because
they are overrated. They describe how to not pay for hotels by using
the Eurorail pass to sleep on the train between cities. I saw many
young people arriving in Amsterdam that seemed to follow the advice.
Thumb thru a copy at your favorite book store and see if you don't
get hooked. I did.
William Sburgfort Smith
Bob Rogers
>every day I meet American tourists. They are allways in a hurry, "doing" each
>day a town, supposing one can get in touch with the life of half a subcontinent
>in a handful of days.
Well, a lot of Americans don't have the time or money to spend. The norm
here in the US is 2 weeks vacation per year. I spent 2 weeks in the UK in
1980. It was all I could afford, but as much as I wish I had had more time,
I don't regret the 2 weeks. Two friends of mine were in the UK on business a
few years ago. They decided to see some sights as the work schedule allowed.
Dashing about Stonehenge at a breakneck pace, they were asked why they were
in such a hurry. "We're taking the 5 minute tour", they replied. "Of
Stonehenge?" "No, of England!"
>your remarks I still wonder what Americans think of Europe, before or after a
>visit.
Here's my reply: Europe is very, very, small.
--
Bob Rogers (Internet: rog...@instrumental.com) (GEnie: R.C.ROGERS)
ALANT24FPS
(Ton Lenssen) writes:
:Living in Amsterdam - one of the finest towns in western Europe -
:every day I meet American tourists. They are allways in a hurry,
"doing" :each
:day a town, supposing one can get in touch with the life of half a
:subcontinent
:in a handful of days.
At age 26 I took about three months off (from working freelance) and
travelled in Europe. It was a nice long trip; actually maybe a bit
too long to be away from home and career. I tended to move fairly
slowly and decide day by day what to do. A chance meeting led to a
wonderful few days in Zagreb; and I liked Greece so much,
particularly the mountains of the North and of Crete, that I stayed
there for a month. But still the last few weeks became a bit rushed
and I dashed from Tuscany up to spend a week in Paris.
One of the most remarkable things I noticed on the trip was the
enormous numbers of young Americans, mostly students and younger than
I was, who were absolutely rushing from place to place. I'd hear them
talking in train stations and youth hostels, comparing notes on how
many places they'd been. They were *students,* what was their hurry?!
On the other hand I met a number of travelling young Australians, who
tended to be mid-to-late twenties and even in their thirties, who
were still travelling the budget route but taking much longer to do
so. Apparently that's a common thing there: spend a few years working
after college and save up some money for a tightly-budgeted grand
tour. BTW I don't remember any racist yobs among them.
Anyway, I'm not sure that the point of ten-cities-in-ten-days tourism
is to get in touch with the life of half a subcontinent. It's to be
there, to tag the base you might say, so you can say you've been
there.
As far as a short book on European history I have no recommendation
except that reading several books about different countries and
periods might be more fruitful. And why not popular history like
Barbara Tuchman's _A Distant Mirror_, about the fourteenth century,
or the aforementioned William Manchester. And novels with a strong
sense of place and time: _ The Name of the Rose_ or Patrick Suskind's
_Perfume_ with its uncanny evocation of 19th century Paris. And for
someone without an art background who's going to lots of art museums
and cathedrals I'd recommend Kenneth Clark's _Civilization_ .
But rather than try to learn a lot of things very quickly one might
try to be a hedgehog and learn one thing very well.
Best wishes,
Alan
ps I returned to Greece in l987 with my bride-to-be, having read some
Greek history and with a bit of modern Greek language. Three months
again- not enough, but a spectacular trip. If the original poster of
this thread is going to Greece I invite him/her to e-mail me.
Jane Skinner
>To Jane,
>My emphasis was not on Brussels but on " a fortnight". Brussels, though, is not
> just the heart of Eurobureaucracy (if
>bureaucracies ever have a heart). It once was the capital of the Burgundian
>realm. I apologize for not mentioning London. Perhaps you missed the irony of
>my message.
frivolous.
[snip]
>Maybe one should not visit western Europe at all, being the heart of not
>just bureaucracy but also of the Inquisition, jesuitism, colonialism,
>imperialism, not to speak of fascism? Wouldn't that be consistent with your
>opinion?
>Ton,
>(Amsterdamned)
I just meant that the results of Eurobureaucracy in my mind would be lots
of boring grey buildings (and people), making the city dull to visit, not
that it was morally wrong!
Jane.
PS) London can have a clean conscience on the Inquisition, jesuitism and
fascism. (Colonialism and imperialism? Yes, well... nobody's perfect!).
Jack Campin
> tol...@asylum.cs.utah.edu "Kenneth Tolman" writes:
>> I am going to be traveling through Europe (Greece, Italy, Spain,
>> Austria, Germany, France) later on this summer, and want to refresh
>> (and learn) the history of this area. Any suggestions on (relatively
>> short) books which are fun and readable that give a nice accurate
>> history would be most appreciated.
> What you want is surely a guide book (e.g. "Let's Go Europe"; Harvard
> Student Agencies, Inc.).
> The peoples of Greece, Italy, Spain, Austria, Germany, France would be
> saddened (but not surprised) by an American's assumption that their
> collective history can be found in a short, fun and readable volume.
Give the guy a break, we all have to start somewhere. Let's Go is garbage
and doesn't even begin to give you an idea of what European history is.
My suggestion, though this is going to be *very* hard for you to find:
Donald Horne's _The Great Museum: the re-presentation of history_
(originally published in Australia, I think, and reprinted by Pluto Press
in the UK in 1984, ISBN: 0-86104-788-5 (pbk)). It's a history of Europe as
seen through its monuments: Horne visited every European capital and
describes what political events gave rise to the major public art works in
them, and what message the monuments were intended to convey in their own
time. It sharpens your perception of the things that occupy public space
in a way no other guidebook does. It's particularly good at making sense
of grotesque stone monstrosities. And it *is* short, fun and readable.
A good historical atlas, like the Penguin ones, is also a help. They're
quite portable too.
--
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4195 HOME: 031 556 5272 FAX: 031 451 3431
INTERNET: ja...@cee.hw.ac.uk BITNET: via UKACRL BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet
Bernie Rauscher
followup I just read:
"RAPE OF EUROPA, the fate of Europe's Treasures Under
the 3rd Reich"
Unfortunately, I don't recall the author, but it was published in the
last year or two.
It's a detailed account of the Nazi's various efforts to control and
appropriate Europe's artistic treasures and production during WWII. The
book also covers the Allied Forces Monuments officers and their attempts
to ensure that the allies didn't compound the problem as they pushed across
europe.
alant...@aol.com (ALANT24FPS) writes:
> One of the most remarkable things I noticed on the trip was the
> enormous numbers of young Americans, mostly students and younger than
> I was, who were absolutely rushing from place to place. I'd hear them
> talking in train stations and youth hostels, comparing notes on how
> many places they'd been. They were *students,* what was their hurry?!
> On the other hand I met a number of traveling young Australians, who
> tended to be mid-to-late twenties and even in their thirties, who
> were still traveling the budget route but taking much longer to do
> so. Apparently that's a common thing there: spend a few years working
> after college and save up some money for a tightly-budgeted grand
> tour.
I've noticed something similar; however, it wasn't in Europe. I was in New
Zealand a few months ago, and one of the things I noticed was how few
Americans I saw. In contrast, the country was swolen with Germans. Many
seemed to have several months at their disposal to see the world. More
Surprisingly, they had money to do so. The Germans I met in New Zealand
traveled cheaply to stretch a few thousand dollars a long way.
I think one of the truisms of travel is that the more cheaply one travels,
the more people one meets. This certainly is my experience. When Americans
have a few thousand dollars for a vacation, their jobs tend to limit the
duration of the vacation to 2 weeks or so. I think this leads to upscale
grande tours with little time at each stop.
Unfortunately, I think it's self perpetuating. The "cure" to the notion
that one can understand (or, for that matter "see") a continent in 2
intensely scheduled weeks is extended travel.