Question:
Rupert
Treebeard just team up to kick Sauron's ass?????
LordKhamul
Saurons servants and armies out of the picture. But Gandalf and the other
Istari were forbidden by the Valar to fight Sauron's power with power.
Gandalf only shows his power in ultimate time of need, the only real
instance being his fight with the Balrog.
Recall that in the Silmarillion Huan the hound defeats Sauron in a fair
fight. I think that Saurons strengths are his sway over his followers and
his ability to poison the minds of his enemies (ie. Denethor) rather then
sheer up-front power.
"Rupert" <mtr...@angelfire.com> wrote in message
news:34b55be9.02021...@posting.google.com...
Russ
mtr...@angelfire.com (Rupert) writes:
>Could Elrond, Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, Beorn, Legolas, Aragorn, Faramir,
>Treebeard just team up to kick Sauron's ass?????
If they got him alone, yes. But how would they get him alone?
Russ
D.Putnam
> fight.
What kind of dog is Huan anyway?? Is he wolf-like...German Shepard-esq?
Or is he like Clifford the Big Red Dog? Which is sadly the way I always
pictured him.
Russ
<Ren...@home.com> writes:
He's a hound-dawg!
Russ
AC
> Treebeard just team up to kick Sauron's ass?????
>
No
---
AaronC
AC
"LordKhamul" <lordk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a4eatb$drg$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> Gandalf could probably do it himself, if it were just one on one with all
of
> Saurons servants and armies out of the picture. But Gandalf and the other
> Istari were forbidden by the Valar to fight Sauron's power with power.
> Gandalf only shows his power in ultimate time of need, the only real
> instance being his fight with the Balrog.
I do not think that Gandalf had the innate power to topple Sauron. Sauron
was obviously a very powerful being. Even without the Ruling Ring he was
still capable of commanding huge armies.
---
AaronC
LordKhamul
in single combat is with Huan - and he loses. Sauron's ability to command
armies and leave his enemies hopeless would not help him in a one on one
situation facing a fellow Maia, and if Gandalf could kill the Balrog, I bet
he would be at least a match for Sauron.
"AC" <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jMFa8.344$FVt.28...@news2.randori.com...
AC
> If you look at the text, the only instance in which Sauron actually
engages
> in single combat is with Huan - and he loses. Sauron's ability to command
> armies and leave his enemies hopeless would not help him in a one on one
> situation facing a fellow Maia, and if Gandalf could kill the Balrog, I
bet
> he would be at least a match for Sauron.
Gandalf certainly never thought so. As for slaying the Balrog, Gandalf died
in the process. Sauron had survived numerous "deaths"; Huan, the Fall of
Numenor and in Mordor. The first and the last seemed to have been more an
abandonment of physical form than the death that occurred at the Downfall of
Numenor.
---
AaronC
AC
Actually, come to think of it, the battle with Huan did not lead to Sauron's
death at all. He took on the form of a bat and fled the scene.
---
AaronC
Antonio Gonzalez
"LordKhamul" <lordk...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:a4fjh4$803$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> If you look at the text, the only instance in which Sauron actually
engages
> in single combat is with Huan - and he loses.
He also fought with Finrod Felagund (with magic) and he
could be also the werewolf that killed Finrod and his companions
In that case, Sauron won.
Antonio
Jonathan White
> Treebeard just team up to kick Sauron's ass?????
Is it actually possible to get all these characters in the same place at the
same time. I think Beorn was dead before Faramir was born.... can anyone
confirm?
Jon
--
Jonathan White
email: jwhi...@jaguar.com
Any opinions expressed are mine and mine alone - not those of Jaguar Cars
Ltd. or Ford Motor Company
Stan Brown
>Gandalf could probably do it himself, if it were just one on one with all of
>Saurons servants and armies out of the picture.
Please don't post upside down. Standard newsgroup practice is to
quot only the specific part you're replying to, and then put your
comments after that.
As to the substance of your comment, Tolkien disagrees. In a Letter
he says that the outcome would be doubtful between Gandalf and
Sauron if Gandalf had the Ring. Without the Ring, we can infer,
Gandalf would surely be defeated.
Also remember that Gandalf only barely defeated a mere Balrog.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
LordKhamul
many men' or something like that stated by gloin to frodo before the council
of elrond. The implication is that beorn is indeed dead.
"Jonathan White" <jwhi...@jaguar.com> wrote in message
news:a4g0dc$m3...@eccws12.dearborn.ford.com...
LordKhamul
"Stan Brown" <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> Please don't post upside down. Standard newsgroup practice is to
> quot only the specific part you're replying to, and then put your
> comments after that.
sorry.
> As to the substance of your comment, Tolkien disagrees. In a Letter
> he says that the outcome would be doubtful between Gandalf and
> Sauron if Gandalf had the Ring. Without the Ring, we can infer,
> Gandalf would surely be defeated.
>
> Also remember that Gandalf only barely defeated a mere Balrog.
I think what Tolkien meant there was whether the armies of the west could
defeat Sauron if Gandalf used the ring... not really in a one on one
situation.
And a mere Balrog? Balrogs are Maia, just like Gandalf and Sauron.
Steuard Jensen
<a4gsns$qos$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>:
> > As to the substance of your comment, Tolkien disagrees. In a
> > Letter he says that the outcome would be doubtful between Gandalf
> > and Sauron if Gandalf had the Ring. Without the Ring, we can
> > infer, Gandalf would surely be defeated.
> I think what Tolkien meant there was whether the armies of the west
> could defeat Sauron if Gandalf used the ring... not really in a one
> on one situation.
I think you should reread (or read) the Letter in question. Tolkien
is explicitly writing about the possibility of a one-on-one, personal
confrontation between Sauron and a new Ringlord, and states that only
Gandalf would have a chance (and it would be a near thing, at that).
> > Also remember that Gandalf only barely defeated a mere Balrog.
> And a mere Balrog? Balrogs are Maia, just like Gandalf and Sauron.
The relative personal power of Balrogs, Sauron, and Gandalf are never
explicitly stated (or even particularly well-defined). According to
Silm., some Maiar were "well nigh as great" as the Valar in power,
while others were considerably weaker. Sauron was the chief
lieutenant of Morgoth in the First Age; it is almost certainly safe to
assume that he was among the most powerful of the Maiar. On the other
hand, the Istari were explicitly not chosen for their personal power
(as they weren't going to be allowed to use it anyway), but rather for
their wisdom and similar traits. While that doesn't mean that they
_couldn't_ have been extremely powerful, it seems relatively unlikely
that the wisest of the many Maiar would also be the strongest in other
ways.
Steuard Jensen
Stan Brown
No, that's not what I was thinking of. (You may be thinking of a
different passage from me.)
[sighs dramatically, heaves lazy self out of chair, shambles down
the hall to the Tolkien bookshelf, looks in book, and types: ]
Letter #246, page 332 in my edition:(*)
"Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his
will. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature
could have hoped to withhold it from him. ...
"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him. ...
Confrontation of Sauron ALONE, UNAIDED, SELF TO SELF [emphasis
added] was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which,
Gandalf, say. was placed in such a position. ... On one side the
true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron: on the other superior
strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps
also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of
will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the
result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the
Ring. ... But the Ring ... would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron."
Seems pretty clear: Gandalf never thought about confronting Sauron
one on one, but if he had then even with the Ring it was still
questionable whether he would be a match for Sauron.
(I should add this to the FAQ of the Rings, I guess.)
(*) Thanks once again to Stug for his "Letters FAQ" (URL below).
Brett Evill
mtr...@angelfire.com (Rupert) wrote:
>Could Elrond, Gandalf, Tom Bombadil, Beorn, Legolas, Aragorn, Faramir,
>Treebeard just team up to kick Sauron's ass?????
Well, Cirdan, Elrond, Gil-galad, and Elendil ganged up on him on the
slopes of Mount Doom at the end of the War of the Last Alliance and
killed him. They suffered only fifty percent fatalities. And that was
back when he had the Ring.
Bombadil wouldn't have gone, and Beorn was dead, but throw in Cirdan to
make up for those two and they might be in with a good chance: if they
could get him into a seven-on-one.
--
Regards,
Brett Evill
<ev...@NO.webone.JUNK.com.MAIL.au>
AC
> And a mere Balrog? Balrogs are Maia, just like Gandalf and Sauron.
I don't think all Maia are equal in power and gifts, just as the Valar
were not equals.
---
AaronC