Valar and Norse god of the Sea
Stan Brown
gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala.
And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life,
but was there?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Larry Swain
> As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse
> gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
>
> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala.
> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life,
> but was there?
>
There was; his name is Njord or Njorthr, and he controls the sea and
beach, husband of Skalthi, father of Frey and Freya. He has clean feet.
Christopher Kreuzer
> As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse
> gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
>
> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala.
> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life,
> but was there?
Found a Norse god that sounds a bit like Osse, but not Ulmo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Njord
Christopher
Morgil
Could it be that the Norse gods were created at a time when
the sea didn't yet have such major inpact in people's life?
Ulmo seems to be more related to the Greek sea god Poseidon
or the Kalevalan sea god Ahti.
Morgil
Raven
news:MPG.1fc80a383...@news.individual.net...
> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life,
> but was there?
Njord, possibly the same as earlier Nerthus that was described by a Roman
as a chief goddess of the Earth worshipped by the Iron Age Germanics. In
the Norse mythology Njord was a Vana, ie. of the other clan of gods, while
Odin and Thor were Asagods. Njord was father of Frey (god of fertility) and
Freya (goddess of love, and therefore also concerned with fertility). His
wife, after he had fathered Frey and Freya, was Skadi of the mountain, who
may actually have named Scandinavia, having perhaps been much more important
in the mythology earlier, long before written records. In one story she
seems to have come close to defeating the Asagods collectively, but was
defeated through a delaying action and was then given Njord as husband in a
sort of equivalent of Danegeld - as Larry the Housecarl mentioned, he had
clean and beautiful feet from standing in seawater all day long.
Also there were Ægir and Ran. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that Ran
had somewhat of the same temperament and role as Ossë.
So there were actually three of them. Just as there were three
war-gods - Odin, king, master of war-luck, Thor the great champion who beat
the Jotnir to pulp, and Tyr (or Tiw), the general.
The Jotnir (Jotuns) were at least in part a precursor to the trolls of
later fairy tales, so perhaps we could on occasion do with some Thor-worship
on the NGs. Perhaps the relative scarcity of trolls lately is due to Thor
paying heed to us. :-)
Hrafn.
Larry Swain
I'd agree with you there, Morgil. Njorthr doesn't seem nearly as
fleshed out as Poseidon and Ahti, and Poseidon's relationship with Zeus
seems more akin to Ulmo and Manwe than Njorthr and the other Aesir.
Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm>:
> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala.
> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life,
> but was there?
Thanks to all for the interesting responses. I don't think I had ever
heard of Njord.
Öjevind Lång
meddelandet news:455e56da$0$160$edfa...@dread11.news.tele.dk...
[snip]
> The Jotnir (Jotuns) were at least in part a precursor to the trolls of
> later fairy tales, so perhaps we could on occasion do with some
> Thor-worship
> on the NGs. Perhaps the relative scarcity of trolls lately is due to Thor
> paying heed to us. :-)
Though "jotun" is always translated into modern Swedish and Danish as
"jätte/jætte" ("giant"), which is what the word means today. It is a
variant form of "jotun", but come to think of it, I am not sure the jotnir
are described as of giant stature in the old texts.
Öjevind
Raven
news:4s954dF...@mid.individual.net...
> Though "jotun" is always translated into modern Swedish and Danish as
> "jätte/jætte" ("giant"), which is what the word means today. It is a
> variant form of "jotun", but come to think of it, I am not sure the jotnir
> are described as of giant stature in the old texts.
I have not heard "jætte" in Norwegian, nor "jotun" in Danish. But it
seems true that they were not necessarily of giant stature. The Asagods
were of stature similar to humans, and the Asagods could marry jotnir - or
try to, as in the story of Thrym stealing Thor's hammer and demanding
Freya's hand in marriage for its return. Loki *did* marry a jotun, and
sired some monsters on her. There are some mental images I don't much want
to contemplate if he was my size and she tall as an oak.
The Danish word "jætte" does not mean "giant" in my experience. "Kæmpe"
does.
Korpen.
Öjevind Lång
meddelandet news:455fd09c$1$20338$edfa...@dread16.news.tele.dk...
> "Öjevind Lång" <bredba...@ojevind.lang> wrote in message
> news:4s954dF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> Though "jotun" is always translated into modern Swedish and Danish as
>> "jätte/jætte" ("giant"), which is what the word means today. It is a
>> variant form of "jotun", but come to think of it, I am not sure the
>> jotnir are described as of giant stature in the old texts.
>
> I have not heard "jætte" in Norwegian, nor "jotun" in Danish
Oh, I did not mean to imply that the word "jotun" exists in Danish today -
or in Swedish; that form of the word is Icelandic anyway. I merely meant
that "jätte/jætte" originated as a hypochoristic form av the corresponding
OSw iætun, ODa iatæn. The cognate OE form was "eoten", which you can find in
the name Ettenmoor in C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. All the forms go back to a
Germanic *etuna- which meant "to eat". So a giant was a glutton.
[snip]
> The Danish word "jætte" does not mean "giant" in my experience. "Kæmpe"
> does.
The newspaper Politiken's "Nudansk ordbog" gives the meanings "1. In Nordic
mythology: a supernatural, evil being" and 2. "om uasædvanligt stort, stærkt
menneske: *vægtlöfteren var en jætte at se til:"; that is to say: "about an
unusually tall and strong person: *the weightlifter was a giant to behold".
It can also be used as a strentgthening word, just like the Swedish jätte:
"jättemonument" and so on.
Öjevind
sig...@binet.is
Stan Brown wrote:
> Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:05:17 -0500 from Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>:
>
> > I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala.
> > And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
> > should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life,
> > but was there?
>
> Thanks to all for the interesting responses. I don't think I had ever
> heard of Njord.
Njörður is celebrated in many names in Iceland, including Njarðvík
both in the east and west.
William Cloud Hicklin
<bredba...@ojevind.lang> wrote:
I merely meant
> that "jätte/jætte" originated as a hypochoristic form av the
> corresponding
> OSw iætun, ODa iatæn. The cognate OE form was "eoten", which you can
> find in
> the name Ettenmoor in C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. All the forms go back
> to a
> Germanic *etuna- which meant "to eat". So a giant was a glutton.
>
>
However, there is something of the gigantic implied in at least some of
the traditions- remember Thor wandering around in the glove? There is
also the possibly related OE ent- esp. since, IIRC, it's only attested in
genitival formations, such as /eald enta geweorc/; which to my lay mind
raises at least the possibility that it's just a strong declension of
/eoten/.
--
" I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist
prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by
traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of
his work"
Öjevind Lång
news:op.tjbo1pzvrwd1fl@emachine...
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 23:59:01 -0500, Öjevind Lång
> <bredba...@ojevind.lang> wrote:
>
> I merely meant
>> that "jätte/jætte" originated as a hypochoristic form av the
>> corresponding
>> OSw iætun, ODa iatæn. The cognate OE form was "eoten", which you can
>> find in
>> the name Ettenmoor in C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. All the forms go back
>> to a
>> Germanic *etuna- which meant "to eat". So a giant was a glutton.
>
> However, there is something of the gigantic implied in at least some of
> the traditions- remember Thor wandering around in the glove? There is
> also the possibly related OE ent- esp. since, IIRC, it's only attested in
> genitival formations, such as /eald enta geweorc/; which to my lay mind
> raises at least the possibility that it's just a strong declension of
> /eoten/.
YR! Incidentally, I just realized that the name Ettendales, Ettenmoors
actually is from LotR, but didn't Lewis use something similar for the
wilderness north of Narnia?
Öjevind
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> Incidentally, I just realized that the name Ettendales, Ettenmoors
> actually is from LotR, but didn't Lewis use something similar for the
> wilderness north of Narnia?
From C.S. Lewis's /The Silver Chair/ (1953) we have ETTINSMOOR. From J.R.R.
Tolkien's /The Lord of the Rings/ (1954-5) we have ETTENMOORS and
ETTENDALES.
I recently read that there were other examples of cross-fertilisation, such
as Numinor and plot points in the "Out of the Silent Planet" trilogy by
Lewis. I assume the traffic was all one way, from Tolkien to Lewis (the
above are publication dates, not dates of composition). Can anyone see any
influence from Lewis on what Tolkien wrote?
Christopher
Troels Forchhammer
"Raven" <jon.lennart.beck...@mail.its.in.danmark>
spoke these staves:
> "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1fc80a383...@news.individual.net...
>>
>> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there
>> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse
>> life, but was there?
>
> Njord,
> In the Norse mythology Njord was a Vana, ie. of the other clan of
> gods, while Odin and Thor were Asagods.
Njord (and Frey + Freya) was exchanged with Mimir (+ Høner) when the
Aesir and the Vanir made peace (as peace-hostages). The Vanir,
suspecting foul play, beheaded Mimir and sent his head back to the
Aesir, which Odin then worked his magic ("troll-dom") upon to make it
alive. I've seen one source at least (though I don't recall where)
cite Mimir as some kind of sea-god for the primordial sea, but most
places don't mention that.
> Also there were Ægir and Ran. I'm no expert, but it seems to
> me that Ran had somewhat of the same temperament and role as Ossë.
Ægir (and supposedly his wife, Rán, I don't know) was of the giants.
Together with Logi (Flame) and Kári (Wind), Ægir was one of the
giants representing elements.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Njord>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADmir>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86gir>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A1n>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left
the path of wisdom.
- Gandalf, /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
William Cloud Hicklin
Well, Lewis once said, "Nobody influences Tolkien. You might as well try
to influence a bandersnatch." Although JRRT did accept a very small
number of CSL's suggestions on The Lay Of Leithian.
You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a
portrait of Tolkien?
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Well, Lewis once said, "Nobody influences Tolkien. You might as well try
> to influence a bandersnatch." Although JRRT did accept a very small
> number of CSL's suggestions on The Lay Of Leithian.
>
> You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a
> portrait of Tolkien?
Yes. I daresay Ransom's given name, Elwin, was picked with that in mind.
Öjevind
Count Menelvagor
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "William Cloud Hicklin" <icelof...@mindspring.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:op.tje9odutrwd1fl@emachine...
>
> [snip]
>
> > Well, Lewis once said, "Nobody influences Tolkien. You might as well try
> > to influence a bandersnatch." Although JRRT did accept a very small
> > number of CSL's suggestions on The Lay Of Leithian.
somewhere tolkien says that lewis's main contribution was simply in
encouraging him to carry on writing his stuff. and also that he wd
push tolkien to improve his writings. i believe i read this in
carpenter's biography.
> > You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a
> > portrait of Tolkien?
>
> Yes. I daresay Ransom's given name, Elwin, was picked with that in mind.
esp. given that the space trilogy and tolkien's /the lost road/ (where
the name elwin figures) were deliberately intended to complement each
other.
though in /that hideous strength/, ransom starts turning into charles
williams.
Öjevind Lång
news:1164244412.6...@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Öjevind Lång wrote:
[snip]
>> > You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a
>> > portrait of Tolkien?
>>
>> Yes. I daresay Ransom's given name, Elwin, was picked with that in mind.
>esp. given that the space trilogy and tolkien's /the lost road/ (where
the name elwin figures) were deliberately intended to complement each
other.
>though in /that hideous strength/, ransom starts turning into charles
williams.
Tolkiend didn't care for "That Hideous Strength". It seems he resented
Williams' influence on Lewis, but I do think he had a point; the first two
planetary books are excellent, but the third is rather weird, to my mind.
Öjevind
Count Menelvagor
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Count Menelvagor" <Menel...@mailandnews.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:1164244412.6...@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >though in /that hideous strength/, ransom starts turning into charles
> williams.
>
> Tolkiend didn't care for "That Hideous Strength". It seems he resented
> Williams' influence on Lewis, but I do think he had a point; the first two
> planetary books are excellent, but the third is rather weird, to my mind.
i enjoy /that hideous strength/, except for the end, which IS a bit
weird, and some of the "fisher-king" stuff. a lot of the NICE stuff is
fun.
i like the first half of /perelandra/ best. when it moves away from
the lady and has ransom and satan-weston beating each other up, it gets
a bit bheh IMO. PJ shd film it.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>i enjoy /that hideous strength/, except for the end, which IS a bit
weird, and some of the "fisher-king" stuff. a lot of the NICE stuff is
fun.
The NICE satire is excellent, but the mysticism at the end is apparently
quite Williamsian, and like you, I don't care for it.
>i like the first half of /perelandra/ best. when it moves away from
the lady and has ransom and satan-weston beating each other up, it gets
a bit bheh IMO. PJ shd film it.
My favourite of the three is "Out of the Silent Planet" - I liked the hrossa
and the sorns very much, and also the fresh, very vivid descriptions of a
different, un-Earthlike world. Few science fiction writers have surpassed
it, probably due to their fixation on machines or weird societies. The first
chapters of Perelandra are beautiful too, but, as you say, the whole
Weston-Satan thing is disgusting. There is a brief return to form towards
the end, with Ransom's undergound voyage where he sees mysterious things
that he never gets an explanation for. Sort of an anti-Lovecraftian
experience, if you understand what I mean.
Öjevind
Count Menelvagor
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Count Menelvagor" <Menel...@mailandnews.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:1164416476....@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> and the sorns very much, and also the fresh, very vivid descriptions of a
> different, un-Earthlike world. Few science fiction writers have surpassed
> it, probably due to their fixation on machines or weird societies.
there's also some amusing parody of other science fiction. in his
essays (+ a taped conversation) on science fiction in /of other
worlds/, CSL complained that too much SF made out other intelligent
life to be evil and to have lots of tentacles. early in OOTSP, ransom
is afraid of being handed over to the sorns, imagining them to be some
horrible SF monster. already in CSL's time SF began to take a more
self-critical approach to humanity's relations with other species.
The first
> chapters of Perelandra are beautiful too, but, as you say, the whole
> Weston-Satan thing is disgusting. There is a brief return to form towards
> the end, with Ransom's undergound voyage where he sees mysterious things
> that he never gets an explanation for. Sort of an anti-Lovecraftian
> experience, if you understand what I mean.
the bit with the giant bug-thing that turns out to be harmless?
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>>The first
>> chapters of Perelandra are beautiful too, but, as you say, the whole
>> Weston-Satan thing is disgusting. There is a brief return to form towards
>> the end, with Ransom's undergound voyage where he sees mysterious things
>> that he never gets an explanation for. Sort of an anti-Lovecraftian
>> experience, if you understand what I mean.
>
>the bit with the giant bug-thing that turns out to be harmless?
There were other things too, I think which were mysterious and eerie but
never horrible.
Öjevind
Steve Morrison
>
> Njord (and Frey + Freya) was exchanged with Mimir (+ Høner) when the
> Aesir and the Vanir made peace (as peace-hostages). The Vanir,
> suspecting foul play, beheaded Mimir and sent his head back to the
> Aesir, which Odin then worked his magic ("troll-dom") upon to make it
> alive. I've seen one source at least (though I don't recall where)
> cite Mimir as some kind of sea-god for the primordial sea, but most
> places don't mention that.
>
>> Also there were Ægir and Ran. I'm no expert, but it seems to
>> me that Ran had somewhat of the same temperament and role as Ossë.
>
> Ægir (and supposedly his wife, Rán, I don't know) was of the giants.
> Together with Logi (Flame) and Kári (Wind), Ægir was one of the
> giants representing elements.
>
H.R. Ellis-Davidson has a chapter on "The Gods of the Sea" in her
classic /Gods and Myths of Northern Europe/, which I recommend if
anyone wants to read more about Norse mythology. I also have a Dover
reprint of H.A. Guerber's /Myths of the Norsement/, which has
separate chapters on Njörd and Ægir, although its scholarship may
not be as reliable as Ellis-Davidson's (and is certainly far more
out of date). Guerber says:
Ægir (the sea), like his brothers Kari (the air) and Loki (fire),
is supposed to have belonged to an older dynasty of the gods, for
he ranked neither with the Æsir, the Vanas, the giants, dwarfs,
or elves, but was considered omnipotent within his realm.
I don't know what his source may have been for this statement.
Guerber also says that Ran was Ægir's sister. I agree with Raven
that Ossë's character is reminiscent of Ægir's (and Ran's) rather
than Njörd's; I wonder whether Tolkien's decision to have one major
sea-god and two minor sea-deities who were a married couple was
inspired by the Norse situation.
I'm unable to find any decent web pages dealing with Ægir and Ran,
but this one on Njörd is worth looking at: