Re: Info about the dead men
Phlip
> Where can I find more info about the dead men who come to aid Gondor on
> Aragorn's call?
Good question: I suspect the only source is RotK's corpus.
The tension between White and Black Numenoreans runs throughout the region's
politics. The Oathbreakers were Black Numenoreans who swore an oath (to
Elendil?), then renegged on it. And the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, the Mouth
of Sauron, was a modern Black Numenorean. (Probably from the nobility of
Umbar, once Numenor's greatest harbor.) Naturally, he himself swore no
oath...
...But when Aragorn held his eye, for a moment, he quailed as if assaulted.
I think this represents Aragorn using his experience with the Oathbreakers
to put the touch on him, to remind him who his true King always was and
always would be. That explains his reaction. He completely loses his cool,
goes off his script, repeats himself, and [with minor exceptions] remains in
Gandalf's palm for the rest of the parley. He cannot hide from Gandalf the
fact that Sauron clearly didn't understand Frodo's quest, and hence couldn't
possibly have stopped it yet.
> Also some info about the witch kings of Angmar would be
> most welcome.
The Appendices to RotK spell all those out. The Witch King (singular) of
Angmar was the Lord of the Nazgul; the one slain in the Pelennor Field.
Tom Bombadil told the Hobbits about the Kings of Arnor, their battles, and
their descendents. Then when he took the Hobbits to the road, he took them
to the last border between lands Angmar conquered and Arthedain, the last
realm of Arnor to hold out. And on the far side of a hedge row (meaning one
step inside Arthedain's territory), Aragorn was hiding, waiting at this
cross-roads for Hobbits from the Shire, and expecting them to come either
along the road or up out of the Old Forest.
There is a pecular connection between the war that finished Arthedain and
the one that finished the Witch King himself. Look it up, then read the
Bombadil and Pelennor Field sequences again.
--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Christopher Kreuzer
> Prateek wrote:
>
>> Where can I find more info about the dead men who come to aid Gondor
>> on Aragorn's call?
>
> Good question: I suspect the only source is RotK's corpus.
>
> The tension between White and Black Numenoreans runs throughout the
> region's politics. The Oathbreakers were Black Numenoreans who swore
> an oath (to Elendil?), then renegged on it.
I thought the Oathbreakers were Men of the Mountains, not Black
Numenoreans:
"...the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to [Isildur] in the
beginning of the realm of Gondor." (The Passing of the Grey Company)
I can't recall anything linking the men of the mountains with the Black
Numenoreans, who were far to the south in Umbar.
> And the Lieutenant of
> Barad Dur, the Mouth of Sauron, was a modern Black Numenorean.
> (Probably from the nobility of Umbar, once Numenor's greatest
> harbor.) Naturally, he himself swore no oath...
But there doesn't seem to be any connection at all between the Mouth of
Sauron and the Oathbreakers (the Dead Men of Dunharrow, and various
other names beside).
> ...But when Aragorn held his eye, for a moment, he quailed as if
> assaulted. I think this represents Aragorn using his experience with
> the Oathbreakers to put the touch on him, to remind him who his true
> King always was and always would be.
Or he could just be staring at him. Though the bit about Denethor and
Gandalf having a similar staring contest does make me wonder. And the
bits about people like Melian and Maeglin (among others) being able to
perceive people's thoughts.
> That explains his reaction. He
> completely loses his cool, goes off his script, repeats himself, and
> [with minor exceptions] remains in Gandalf's palm for the rest of the
> parley. He cannot hide from Gandalf the fact that Sauron clearly
> didn't understand Frodo's quest, and hence couldn't possibly have
> stopped it yet.
Totally agree with this. Mouth of Sauron does completely lose it. To put
not too fine a point on it, he blusters from this point forwards. Though
the disparity in the size of the opposing armies kind of makes this all
moot.
>> Also some info about the witch kings of Angmar would be
>> most welcome.
>
> The Appendices to RotK spell all those out. The Witch King (singular)
> of Angmar was the Lord of the Nazgul; the one slain in the Pelennor
> Field.
<snip>
> There is a pecular connection between the war that finished Arthedain
> and the one that finished the Witch King himself. Look it up, then
> read the Bombadil and Pelennor Field sequences again.
And there is also the bit, in Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion
(RC, page 20), where they report that Tolkien wrote in the manuscript of
/Nomenclature/ that the Witch-King's origin is unknown but that "he was
probably of Numenorean descent".
Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
Phlip
> I thought the Oathbreakers were Men of the Mountains, not Black
> Numenoreans:
>
> "...the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to [Isildur] in the
> beginning of the realm of Gondor." (The Passing of the Grey Company)
>
> I can't recall anything linking the men of the mountains with the Black
> Numenoreans, who were far to the south in Umbar.
My bad. They weren't Numenorean stock, hence they weren't BNs. But they
indeed "worshipped Sauron during the Dark Years".
>> ...But when Aragorn held his eye, for a moment, he quailed as if
>> assaulted. I think this represents Aragorn using his experience with
>> the Oathbreakers to put the touch on him, to remind him who his true
>> King always was and always would be.
>
> Or he could just be staring at him. Though the bit about Denethor and
> Gandalf having a similar staring contest does make me wonder. And the
> bits about people like Melian and Maeglin (among others) being able to
> perceive people's thoughts.
Dude, excuse my former technical oversight, and observe he put the touch on
him. Descending from Numenoreans puts you in the same category as swearing
an Oath to them. Aragorn knows how to push your button.
> And there is also the bit, in Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion
> (RC, page 20), where they report that Tolkien wrote in the manuscript of
> /Nomenclature/ that the Witch-King's origin is unknown but that "he was
> probably of Numenorean descent".
I thought that was closer to canon than one scribble. Noted.
(And, no I don't expect Aragorn to put the touch on him. He has nothing left
to touch!)
Bill O'Meally
> Or he could just be staring at him. Though the bit about Denethor and
> Gandalf having a similar staring contest does make me wonder. And the
> bits about people like Melian and Maeglin (among others) being able to
> perceive people's thoughts.
After reading "Osanwe-kenta: 'Enquiry into the Communication of
Thought'" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ 39, 7/98), I am convinced that Aragorn made
some sort of non-verbal threat to MOS. I am equally convinced that there
was a communication of thought between Gandalf and Denethor.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
Phlip
> After reading "Osanwe-kenta: 'Enquiry into the Communication of Thought'"
> (_Vinyar Tengwar_ 39, 7/98), I am convinced that Aragorn made some sort of
> non-verbal threat to MOS.
"Even the shades of men are obedient to his will" --Legolas
Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing the
wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
> I am equally convinced that there was a
> communication of thought between Gandalf and Denethor.
I don't need that. For one thing, they didn't have a complete staring
contest; Gandalf just held Denethor's eye. Pippin observed the general
nature of their argument.
Before that, Gandalf simply checked each of Denethor's moves. The general
communication was "You are not representing the interests of your people
here", but G is smart enough not to require mental telepathy to let D know
that.
--
Phlip
Morgil
> Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
> not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing the
> wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
Aragorn would have been pretty megalomaniac to claim himself
the King of Numenor. If you noticed, he often calls himself
the Heir of Elendil, but not really the Heir of Ar-Pharazon.
Morgil
Christopher Kreuzer
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
<snip>
>> I am equally convinced that there was a
>> communication of thought between Gandalf and Denethor.
Interesting idea. What do you think was being said?
> I don't need that. For one thing, they didn't have a complete staring
> contest; Gandalf just held Denethor's eye. Pippin observed the general
> nature of their argument.
They had at least as much of a staring contest as Aragorn and the MoS.
Aragorn vs Mouth of Sauron:
"Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other's eye and held it,
and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir
nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced
with a blow." (The Black Gate Opens)
Gandalf vs Denethor:
"[Denethor] turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a
likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as
if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might
suddenly burst into flame. <cue interlude with Pippin's thoughts> And
then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still
looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind. But it was
Denethor who first withdrew his gaze." (Minas Tirith)
OK, so maybe the two instances _are_ different. The Aragorn-MoS stare is
more hostile than the Gandalf-Denethor one, which might be more of a
guarded, questioning, but not hostile, meeting of minds.
But if I was a mere hobbit like Pippin, watching these beings with
preternatural or supernatural powers, it would really freak me out!
Like, gross! They are reading each other's minds! :-)
> Before that, Gandalf simply checked each of Denethor's moves. The
> general communication was "You are not representing the interests of
> your people here", but G is smart enough not to require mental
> telepathy to let D know that.
But even if there was not communication, it seems there was some sort of
mind-reading, or at least attempt at mind-reading, going on.
Stan Brown
That would be like Queen Elizabeth calling herself the heir of Bloody
Mary: true, but not a heritage you want to draw attention to. :-)
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Phlip
>> > Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
>> > not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing the
>> > wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
>>
>> Aragorn would have been pretty megalomaniac to claim himself
>> the King of Numenor. If you noticed, he often calls himself
>> the Heir of Elendil, but not really the Heir of Ar-Pharazon.
>
> That would be like Queen Elizabeth calling herself the heir of Bloody
> Mary: true, but not a heritage you want to draw attention to. :-)
As usual, Morgil added words to what I wrote, then complained about them.
Aragorn doesn't want to be King of Numenor. That would involve very little
territory - but lots of fishing rights!
(And, technically, Ar-Pharazon derived from a different lineage, and is not
one of Aragorn's ancestors...)
Morgil
> Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:04:49 +0300 from Morgil <more...@hotmail.com>:
>
>>Phlip wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
>>>not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing the
>>>wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
>>
>>Aragorn would have been pretty megalomaniac to claim himself
>>the King of Numenor. If you noticed, he often calls himself
>>the Heir of Elendil, but not really the Heir of Ar-Pharazon.
>
>
> That would be like Queen Elizabeth calling herself the heir of Bloody
> Mary: true, but not a heritage you want to draw attention to. :-)
Seriously?
Morgil
Morgil
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>
>>>>Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
>>>>not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing the
>>>>wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
>>>
>>>Aragorn would have been pretty megalomaniac to claim himself
>>>the King of Numenor. If you noticed, he often calls himself
>>>the Heir of Elendil, but not really the Heir of Ar-Pharazon.
>>
>>That would be like Queen Elizabeth calling herself the heir of Bloody
>>Mary: true, but not a heritage you want to draw attention to. :-)
>
>
> As usual, Morgil added words to what I wrote, then complained about them.
>
> Aragorn doesn't want to be King of Numenor. That would involve very little
> territory - but lots of fishing rights!
And what else could Aragorn base his claim to be the rightful
King of the Black Numenoreans, which you suggested?
> (And, technically, Ar-Pharazon derived from a different lineage, and is not
> one of Aragorn's ancestors...)
Which makes it even more of a stretch.
Morgil
Troels Forchhammer
Morgil <more...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
>
> Phlip wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> As usual, Morgil added words to what I wrote, then complained
>> about them.
It seems to me that he merely took them at face value . . .
>> Aragorn doesn't want to be King of Numenor. That would involve
>> very little territory - but lots of fishing rights!
>
> And what else could Aragorn base his claim to be the rightful
> King of the Black Numenoreans, which you suggested?
Precisely. The kingship of Númenor would be the only that Aragorn
could, with any degree of justification, claim, which would make him
the 'rightful King' of the Mouth of Sauron.
It is, of course, possible that the Mouth of Sauron came from the
areas that had, at one point or another, been under the rule of
Gondor, but that cannot be known, nor is it, IMO, entirely certain
that that would make Aragorn his rightful king (since, in that case,
Christopher's 'rightful Queen' would be Her Majesty Queen Margrethe
II in Copenhagen <GG>).
>> (And, technically, Ar-Pharazon derived from a different lineage,
>> and is not one of Aragorn's ancestors...)
>
> Which makes it even more of a stretch.
I suppose that Aragorn is, as the closest living relative, and a
direct descendant from Tar-Elendil (through Silmarien, who would have
inherited the throne had the law been as it later became), the fourth
king of Númenor, was the only person who could have rightfully
claimed the kingship of Númenor.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
A good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows
how to read.
- /Guards! Guards!/ (Terry Pratchett)
Troels Forchhammer
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
> Phlip <phli...@gEEEmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bill O'Meally wrote:
>>>
>>> I am equally convinced that there was a communication of thought
>>> between Gandalf and Denethor.
>
> Interesting idea. What do you think was being said?
"Tell me what you're up to!" ;-)
Ósanwe-kenta obviously comes to mind (pun not intended), in
particular the passages about Morgoth's use of ósanwe.
The essay /Ósanwe-kenta: Enquiry into the Communication of Thought/
is published in Vinyar Tengwar #39, and is precisely what the title
says (in both Quenya and English). The main point is that /all/
intelligent peoples of Arda, from Manwë down to the least of the
Incarnates (and of Eru as well, for that matter), are capable of
ósanwe -- what we might call telepathy. In LotR we see it when
Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel etc. communicate in VI,6 'Many Partings'
before the people of Lórien turn to the Redhorn Pass.
While all are capable of ósanwe, it is not all who learn it, and
there are, for the Incarnates, a number of impediments, including
their bodies and the use of spoken language (which is associated with
the body). There are some factors that can strengthen the
communication and thus overcome the barriers, and of these, the most
relevant in this context is authority:
/Authority/ may also lend force to the thought of one who
has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right
to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of
others.
[Ósanwe-kenta, Vinyar Tengwar issue #39]
Also, while the natural state is to have an open mind (for reception
and sending), one can, by a conscious act of will, close one's mind
to any intrusion. Morgoth, however, found ways to trick or lure
others to open their minds to him (he could not overcome the closed
mind, but needed to make the persons themselves open their mind).
[Morgoth] found that the open approach of a /sáma/ of power
and great force of will was felt by a lesser /sáma/ as an
immense pressure, accompanied by fear. To dominate by
weight of power and fear was his delight; but in this case
he found them unavailing: fear closed the door faster.
Therefore he tried deceit and stealth.
[Ósanwe-kenta, Vinyar Tengwar issue #39] (/sáma/ = mind)
In this case, I would suppose that both Gandalf and Denethor had
closed their minds, but were contesting in 'strength of will', though
this would not help open the other's mind (as Morgoth found out).
>> I don't need that. For one thing, they didn't have a complete
>> staring contest; Gandalf just held Denethor's eye. Pippin
>> observed the general nature of their argument.
>
> They had at least as much of a staring contest as Aragorn and the
> MoS.
That line of smouldering fire that Pippin almost imagines certainly
does imply something far stronger than merely holding Denethor's eye.
I don't, however, think that they really communicated -- neither
would want the other to know his secrets, and so I think they were
simply having a contest of will -- more direct and forceful than your
usual staring contest, but still in the same vein.
<snip quotations>
> OK, so maybe the two instances _are_ different.
Different, yes, and yet very much alike, IMO.
> The Aragorn-MoS stare is more hostile than the Gandalf-Denethor
> one, which might be more of a guarded, questioning, but not
> hostile, meeting of minds.
I'm not sure about the absence of hostility in the contest between
Gandalf and Denethor -- at least hostility from Denethor towards
Gandalf (whom he believed wanted to supplant himself and put a puppet
in his stead).
But I think that Aragorn tried what was described for Morgoth above
-- to 'approach' (or, rather, show himself) to the Mouth's mind as a
mind of great power and will (and majesty). I don't think that the
intention to dominate the other mind is important in this -- it is
the strength of the mind and the will that causes uncertainty and
ultimately fear in the weaker mind rather than the prospect of being
dominated.
The most basic difference between the two situations seems to me to
be that Aragorn appears to deliberately catch and hold the eye of the
Mouth of Sauron, whereas the the contest between Gandalf and Denethor
appears to me to rather grow out of the situation -- when Gandalf and
Denethor finds no other outlet for each their frustration than this
(the alternative being to forego their already fragile alliance).
I speculate whether the effect when these great ones seem to grow
(Gandalf in Bag End, Aragorn in Bree, Galadriel at Frodo's offer and
possibly other cases as well), is the result when the weaker mind
doesn't sense the stronger mind as immediately hostile.
> But if I was a mere hobbit like Pippin, watching these beings with
> preternatural or supernatural powers, it would really freak me
> out! Like, gross! They are reading each other's minds! :-)
That doesn't seem to be what he thinks -- there is a marked
difference between these to situations and the communication between
the great ones in 'Many Partings', where we /know/ that they were
using ósanwe:
If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have
seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that
he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of
forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did
not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind;
and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their
thoughts went to and fro.
[LotR VI,6 'Many Partings']
> But even if there was not communication, it seems there was some
> sort of mind-reading, or at least attempt at mind-reading, going
> on.
Well, partly, I think. My interpretation is that they are both trying
to use the force of their wills and strength of mind to force the
other to break down and reveal what they know. Denethor it is who
gives up, and I think his words are as good as any admission that he
had been using the Anor stone.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>
"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent
whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into
teaching?"
- /Mort/ (Terry Pratchett)
Stan Brown
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> >> > Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
> >> > not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing the
> >> > wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
> >>
> >> Aragorn would have been pretty megalomaniac to claim himself
> >> the King of Numenor. If you noticed, he often calls himself
> >> the Heir of Elendil, but not really the Heir of Ar-Pharazon.
No, I did not.
Please do not falsely attribute the words of others to me.
Stan Brown
> one of Aragorn's ancestors...)
That doesn't prevent him being his heir. As the senior survivor of
the royal house of Numenor, he was the heir of the Kings of Numenor.
Elizabeth II is not descended from Bloody Mary, but she is
nonetheless her heir.
Or do you deny that Eomer was Theoden's heir because Theoden was not
one of his ancestors?
Phlip
"Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f0c2abb3...@news.individual.net...
> Tue, 27 Jun 2006 02:48:05 GMT from Phlip <phli...@yahoo.com>:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> >> > Aragorn told the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, "I am your rightful King,
>> >> > not that freak you are stuck with, and you know it. You are backing
>> >> > the
>> >> > wrong horse here; a mistake that is about to prove fatal."
>> >>
>> >> Aragorn would have been pretty megalomaniac to claim himself
>> >> the King of Numenor. If you noticed, he often calls himself
>> >> the Heir of Elendil, but not really the Heir of Ar-Pharazon.
>
> No, I did not.
>
> Please do not falsely attribute the words of others to me.
Please don't snip your own words when you accuse me. Everyone knows how the
reply ticks > work. In my post, they were 1 deep, hence yours.
Derek Broughton
But you only included the attribution for Stan, and you really weren't even
responding to Stan, so it would have been polite to either fix the
attributions, not include the text that he didn't write, or go back to the
post _before_ Stan's.
This is mostly the best behaved group on Usenet, and it would be nice to
keep it that way.
--
derek
Phlip
> This is mostly the best behaved group on Usenet, and it would be nice to
> keep it that way.
And I will endeavor not to reply, even indirectly, to the well-behaved
group members who I have kill-filed!
--
Phlip
Derek Broughton
LOL. That's easiest. Most of the arguments we _do_ have here have been
rehashed so many times, it's easier to just kill-file the people you argue
with and keep everybody's blood pressure down...
--
derek
Christopher Kreuzer
<snip>
> Everyone knows how the reply ticks > work.
> In my post, they were 1 deep, hence yours.
This is a perennial question. The safest and best way to quote and
attribute is to leave in the attributions for all the quoted material at
the top, only removing someone's attribution if you are sure you have
removed all their words from what you quote.