Building the Barad-dur
O. Sharp
I was going over the Tale of Years this evening, trying to decide if it
was possible (as Mark Sulkowski suggested in the "Fantasy Metals"
thread) for the metal of the One Ring to have come from Numenor, when I
came across an unexpected puzzle.
In the Tale of Years for the Second Age (_RotK_, p. 364 hardback), it
states the following:
"c. 1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a
stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dur.
. . .
"c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the
Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron..."
What makes this curious is the clear statement given by Elrond about
the Dark Tower's construction, as he described the cleaning-up after the
Battle of the Last Alliance (_Fellowship_ p. 257 hardback, emphasis mine):
"The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; _for
they were made with the power of the Ring_..." Now since the Ring wasn't
forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
hundred years building the Barad-dur...
..._before he had built the foundation_.
Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
completed almost immediately!_
...How do we explain this? How can we explain how Sauron - a Maia of
Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and yet
build the foundation _last_?
Doubtless there are many possible explanations; I'm looking forward to
hearing what others may suggest. For my part I've been thinking about it
all evening, and I believe I have a possible answer - one clearly in
character for Sauron, the master of cruelty and deceit:
Pre-fabricated modular housing.
Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes. :)
...It's worth observing that, once Sauron had the foundations set up,
he could also rebuild the Barad-dur with incredible speed. The Tower was
"levelled to the ground" at the end of the Second Age (_Sil._ p. 294
hardback); yet, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began rebuilding
the Barad-dur in TA 2951 - and it was evidently _finished_ by the time of
the War of the Ring (TA 3018), only some 67 years later! More evidence in
favor of the Barad-dur being a prefab, don't you think? :)
Perhaps the most convincing evidence, however, comes from none other than
the Mouth of Sauron (_RotK_ p. 166 hardback) when he implies that just
having to _live_ in the Barad-dur constitutes an unimaginable torture.
It's also worth noting that, on the same page, he notes that he _himself_
has plans to move to Isengard at the first available opportunity. :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Michael Martinez
In article <ohhDsD...@netcom.com>, o...@netcom.com (O. Sharp) wrote:
[snip]
>What makes this curious is the clear statement given by Elrond about
>the Dark Tower's construction, as he described the cleaning-up after the
>Battle of the Last Alliance (_Fellowship_ p. 257 hardback, emphasis mine):
>"The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; _for
>they were made with the power of the Ring_..." Now since the Ring wasn't
>forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
>hundred years building the Barad-dur...
>
>...._before he had built the foundation_.
>
>Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
>completed almost immediately!_
[snip]
Personally, I think this is an anomaly. However, since Sauron invested a
great deal of power in his Ring, it might be arguable that the power he
transferred to the Ring was the power to which Elrond referred.
Also, Sauron did not spend all those centuries in Mordor.
The pre-fab housing idea is interesting, but I suspect the Elves had already
implemented it in the First Age.
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
C Mckiernan
On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, O. Sharp wrote:
> I was going over the Tale of Years this evening, trying to decide if it
> was possible (as Mark Sulkowski suggested in the "Fantasy Metals"
> thread) for the metal of the One Ring to have come from Nu
> What makes this curious is the clear statement given by Elrond about
> the Dark Tower's construction, as he described the cleaning-up after the
> Battle of the Last Alliance (_Fellowship_ p. 257 hardback, emphasis mine):
> "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; _for
> they were made with the power of the Ring_..." Now since the Ring wasn't
> forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
> hundred years building the Barad-dur...
>
> ..._before he had built the foundation_.
>
> Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
> completed almost immediately!_
<snip>
> ...How do we explain this?
> Pre-fabricated modular housing.
>
> Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes. :)
<snip>
> Perhaps the most convincing evidence, however, comes from none other than
> the Mouth of Sauron (_RotK_ p. 166 hardback) when he implies that just
> having to _live_ in the Barad-dur constitutes an unimaginable torture.
> It's also worth noting that, on the same page, he notes that he _himself_
> has plans to move to Isengard at the first available opportunity. :)
>
Nice idea! As a student living in a pre-fab. hall of residene I
understand the torment. As regards the foundations bit, maybe Sauron just
spent a VERY long time on the dungeons beneath the tower. You know,
making them particularly dark, damp, rat-infested, plague-ridden etc. And
even before that he had to go through all the bureaucracy of planning
permision and getting the drains sorted out, plus site-clearance and
moving rare species of desert flora and fauna to a secure home.
Or perhaps he just used a dodgy firm of contractors?
Catherine
Mark Sulkowski
O. Sharp wrote:
> I was going over the Tale of Years this evening, trying to decide if it
> was possible (as Mark Sulkowski suggested in the "Fantasy Metals"
> Now since the Ring wasn't
> forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
> hundred years building the Barad-dur...
>
> ..._before he had built the foundation_.
Perhaps he transmuted the "normal" foundation into the "magic-enhanced"
foundation with the power of the Ring long after the original foundation was
built. This is PURE speculation however.
It could be that you found a goofup. They must be pretty rare.
Alatar the Blue
Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews
O. Sharp (o...@netcom.com) wrote:
&I was going over the Tale of Years this evening, trying to decide if it
&was possible (as Mark Sulkowski suggested in the "Fantasy Metals"
&thread) for the metal of the One Ring to have come from Numenor, when I
&came across an unexpected puzzle.
&In the Tale of Years for the Second Age (_RotK_, p. 364 hardback), it
&states the following:
& "c. 1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a
& stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dur.
& . . .
& "c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the
& Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron..."
&What makes this curious is the clear statement given by Elrond about
&the Dark Tower's construction, as he described the cleaning-up after the
&Battle of the Last Alliance (_Fellowship_ p. 257 hardback, emphasis mine):
&"The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; _for
&they were made with the power of the Ring_..." Now since the Ring wasn't
&forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
&hundred years building the Barad-dur...
&..._before he had built the foundation_.
&Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
&completed almost immediately!_
&...How do we explain this? How can we explain how Sauron - a Maia of
&Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and yet
&build the foundation _last_?
Three possibilities:
1. As Michael Martinez suggests, it may be an anomaly, a mistake the good
professor made but which the proofreaders didn't catch.
2. Elrond's language was deliberately abstruse: the foundations of the
Barad-dur were made with the power of Sauron, which happened to
also be the power of the Ring.
3. (The one I like best if this is *not* an anomaly) After forging the
Ring, Sauron built a new Barad-dur, or remodelled/expanded the
Barad-dur to the extent that a substantial additional foundation
had to be built, and this foundation was built with the Ring.
&Doubtless there are many possible explanations; I'm looking forward to
&hearing what others may suggest. For my part I've been thinking about it
&all evening, and I believe I have a possible answer - one clearly in
&character for Sauron, the master of cruelty and deceit:
&Pre-fabricated modular housing.
&Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes. :)
&...It's worth observing that, once Sauron had the foundations set up,
&he could also rebuild the Barad-dur with incredible speed. The Tower was
&"levelled to the ground" at the end of the Second Age (_Sil._ p. 294
&hardback); yet, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began rebuilding
&the Barad-dur in TA 2951 - and it was evidently _finished_ by the time of
&the War of the Ring (TA 3018), only some 67 years later! More evidence in
&favor of the Barad-dur being a prefab, don't you think? :)
&Perhaps the most convincing evidence, however, comes from none other than
&the Mouth of Sauron (_RotK_ p. 166 hardback) when he implies that just
&having to _live_ in the Barad-dur constitutes an unimaginable torture.
&It's also worth noting that, on the same page, he notes that he _himself_
&has plans to move to Isengard at the first available opportunity. :)
While I like the prefab idea, it isn't strictly necessary to explain the
situation :) IIRC, there is no explicit mention that Sauron had finished
rebuilding the Barad-dur by 3018. Even if he had "finished", it's
possible that this latest Barad-dur was not as big as its predecessor(s).
Pat
--
Patrick G. Matthews or Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews?
I hope you can tell the difference :)
kella
In article <ohhDsD...@netcom.com>, O. Sharp <o...@netcom.com> pondered:
(stuff about time-discontinuity snipped)
>...How do we explain this? How can we explain how Sauron - a Maia of
>Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and yet
>build the foundation _last_?
You must not have had any remodelling done. I have friends that have been
reomdelling their house for more than ten years. And they're merely human.
Imagine how long it would take if they were maiar!
Another suggestion... perhaps Sauron was pioneering some radically-new
design and archetiecture techniques. I'm sure Frank Lloyd Wright's
contemporaries were disenchanted and confused by some of his designs.
>Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes. :)
Euugh! I'm glad you didn't suggest prefabricated track housing.
regards,
kella
Guy Byars
>> ..._before he had built the foundation_.
>>
>> Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
>> completed almost immediately!_
> <snip>
>> ...How do we explain this?
Obviously he was using Union labor on the foundation. However, when he got
the One Ring, all his labor troubles must have suddenly vanished.
Tom Evans
O. Sharp wrote:
>
>
> In the Tale of Years for the Second Age (_RotK_, p. 364 hardback), it
>
> "c. 1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a
> "c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the
>
I had always assumed that although the Barad-dur was called a tower
and fortress that it was much more than that. In effect I imagined
a 'mini-city' as in Minas Tirith which featured a central tower
where Sauron could gaze and observe the sufferings of his slaves.
This rationale seems reasonable in that the Army of the Last Alliance
besieged the Barad-dur for seven years. Only a fully self-supporting
structure could withstand such a long siege. Also, I has always
assumed that all the 'mines and forges' of Sauron were located in
the Barad-dur. Given the enormous war plans of Sauron and that he
was a 'student' of Aule, I would imagine that these constituted a
vast structure (more than what would fit in a simple tower or fortress).
When Elrond refers to the foundations and the completion of the
Barad-dur, I take that to mean that the whole structure was 'blessed'
in a way using the power of the ring after it was already completed.
This constituted the 'completion of the Barad-dur using the power of the
ring'. Also, it seems that the works of the enemy are not cleansed by
the powers of good as it were. But instead are left to rot and allow
time to heal the damage.
Tom Evans
BThompson
fe...@iac.net (Guy Byars) gave the ultimate answer:
>
>>O. Sharp constructed the following query:
>>> ..._before he had built the foundation_.
>>>
>>> Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
>>> completed almost immediately!_
>> <snip>
>>> ...How do we explain this?
>
>Obviously he was using Union labor on the foundation.
ROTFL!!!!
>However, when he got
>the One Ring, all his labor troubles must have suddenly vanished.
There is another possibility: Sauron used Leggos to build the
above-ground part of the tower. How else could he have rebuilt it so
quickly with the available materials?
Regards,
Bill
Modemac
O. Sharp (o...@netcom.com) wrote:
: "c. 1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a
One reason for the extraordinary length of time could have been the fact
that Sauron was in his fair guise at the time, infiltrating the Elven
kingdoms of Eregion and assisting the Elven-smiths in their labors. He
thus had to keep his whole operation a secret, so that even if the Eldar
knew of the building of Barad-Dur (and it's possible that they didn't,
since they were hanging out in the area of Laurelindorenan-Moria-Eregion
at the time, and not scouting out Mordor), Sauron would have had to keep
his involvement in the operation a secret. Thus, he moved very slowly
and carefully. In contrast, he made no secret of his intent to rebuild
Barad-Dur during the Third Age; thus the construction moved much faster.
In addition, the foundations of the Barad-Dur still existed in the Third
Age, for they were enchanted by the Ring, and thus he didn't have to spend
all that time re-digging those pits.
The idea that Sauton reinforced the foundations of Barad-Dur with the
power of the Ring seems plausible.
--
Reverend Modemac (mod...@netcom.com)
First Online Church of "Bob" "There is no black and white."
PGP Key Fingerprint: 47 90 41 70 B4 5B 06 90 7B 38 4E 11 8A ED 80 DF
URL: http://www.tiac.net/users/modemac/
(FINGER mod...@netcom.com for a FREE SubGenius Pamphlet!)
Donald J. Sherrard
> Also, I has always
> assumed that all the 'mines and forges' of Sauron were located in
> the Barad-dur.
Actually, in the second part of RoTK, where Frodo and Sam are in
Mordor, it states that all the 'mines and forges' of Sauron were located
within the latter Udun (the small plain that seperates the Black Gate and
the Plains of Gorgoroth).
-ethan, 12 yrs
P.S. don't get confused about Donald and Jean - one is my
grandfather and one my father (No, Jean is not a girl.)
beav...@csulb.edu
fe...@iac.net
>> ..._before he had built the foundation_.
>>
>> Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
>> completed almost immediately!_
> <snip>
>> ...How do we explain this?
Obviously he was using Union labor on the foundation. However, when he
Philippe Coletsos
O. Sharp (o...@netcom.com) wrote:
(...)
: "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; _for
: they were made with the power of the Ring_..." Now since the Ring wasn't
: forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
: hundred years building the Barad-dur...
: ..._before he had built the foundation_.
: Moreover, once the foundation was finally laid, _the Barad-dur was
: completed almost immediately!_
: ...How do we explain this? How can we explain how Sauron - a Maia of
: Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and yet
: build the foundation _last_?
: Doubtless there are many possible explanations; I'm looking forward to
: hearing what others may suggest. For my part I've been thinking about it
: all evening, and I believe I have a possible answer - one clearly in
: character for Sauron, the master of cruelty and deceit:
: Pre-fabricated modular housing.
: Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes. :)
I've thought about it also. And I've come up with a few possibilities,
wether any of them are true, it's up to you.
1) Around 1000, Sauron begins building a rush-job Barad-Dur, set on
unstable volcanic rock. Before He realises the mistake of not hiring a
licenced inspector to choose the site, He spends 600 years constantly
fixing and renovating his crumbling tower. In 1600, when He forges the One
ring, He uses this newfound power to stabilize and to reinforce the tower
and its foundations. Calming the volcanic activity, building tunnels for
escape and communication, refortifying, thus making the "foundation" which
the Last Alliance had trouble undoing.
2) The author overlooked this detail in the writing. After all, first
came The Hobbit, then the Lord of the Rings, and THEN, the good professor
wrote all the stories and appendices which connect all the stories
together.
This is, after all, quite a small detail (although quite
important) and J.R. probably didn't notice it himself. Don't forget that
he has already made mistakes on things far more obvious (Glorfindel's
return from the dead). But this time, he's not around to fix and compensate
the story.
3) Sauron works in anti-time. He starts by the tip of the tower and works
downward. As such, He built the foundation last. (Star Trek fans will
like this one... :)
: ...It's worth observing that, once Sauron had the foundations set up,
: he could also rebuild the Barad-dur with incredible speed. The Tower was
: "levelled to the ground" at the end of the Second Age (_Sil._ p. 294
: hardback); yet, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began rebuilding
: the Barad-dur in TA 2951 - and it was evidently _finished_ by the time of
: the War of the Ring (TA 3018), only some 67 years later! More evidence in
: favor of the Barad-dur being a prefab, don't you think? :)
Yeah, I do find it odd, 67 years? kinda short. Maybe the foundations were
actually 89% of the actual tower (67/600) and he only had to build the
11% left. :)
P.S. Say, do you LIKE living in a pre-fab home? :)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Deserves Death? I daresay he does. And some who die deserve life. Can
you give it to them? So don't be too eager to deal out death in
judgement..." -J.R.R. Tolkien (LotR)
"Il n'y a que malchance a ne pas etre aime. Mais il n'y a que malheur
a ne pas aimer."
-(Inconnu)
Philip Coletsos: pe...@step.polymtl.ca
Keith Barkley
In article <4p3plu$5...@service.polymtl.ca>
pe...@step.polymtl.ca (Philippe Coletsos) writes:
> 1) Around 1000, Sauron begins building a rush-job Barad-Dur, set on
> unstable volcanic rock. Before He realises the mistake of not hiring a
> licenced inspector to choose the site, He spends 600 years constantly
> fixing and renovating his crumbling tower. In 1600, when He forges the One
> ring, He uses this newfound power to stabilize and to reinforce the tower
> and its foundations. Calming the volcanic activity, building tunnels for
> escape and communication, refortifying, thus making the "foundation" which
> the Last Alliance had trouble undoing
Poorly remembered quote:
" They told me not to build a castle in a swamp but I built
it to prove them wrong. It sank into the swamp. So I
built another... and it sank into the swamp. So I built
another. It collapsed, burned and then sank into the
swamp. So I built another. It stayed up so I proved them
wrong!"
Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Keith Barkley
R23...@email.sps.mot.com
---
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you half as well as you
deserve.
Bilbo Baggins
az...@imap1.asu.edu
beav...@csulb.edu wrote:
: In article <ohhDsD...@netcom.com>, O. Sharp <o...@netcom.com>
: pondered:
: (stuff about time-discontinuity snipped)
: >...How do we explain this? How can we explain how Sauron - a Maia of
: >Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and
: >yet build the foundation _last_?
: You must not have had any remodelling done. I have friends that have
: been reomdelling their house for more than ten years. And they're
: merely human. Imagine how long it would take if they were maiar!
Since you mentioned "remodelling," I once saw an episode of _This Old
House_ in which they were *replacing* the foundation of an old house.
Does 600 years seem "old" to you? Maybe we should find Bob Vila...
--
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
"The road goes ever on and on."
- Bilbo Baggins, as quoted in _The C++ Programming Language._
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
8^)
Bruce Alderman
On Mon, 03 Jun 1996 19:02:28 -0400,
Mark Sulkowski <ma...@apollo3.com> wrote:
> O. Sharp wrote:
> > Now since the Ring wasn't forged until SA 1600, this means that
> > Sauron spent approximately six hundred years building the
> > Barad-dur...
> >
> > ..._before he had built the foundation_.
> It could be that you found a goofup.
NO! Tolkien's writings are inerrant. If you can't trust *everything*
he wrote, you can't trust *any* of it. Otherwise, who could say what is
true and what is false? It is a case of mortal men claiming to be wiser
than...
Uh, sorry about that. I've been spending too much time in the religion
conferences.
--
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Bruce Alderman b...@southwind.net
.sig file under construction
--
Robert Cook
In <kTmtxQcr...@southwind.net> b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman)
writes:
digging the holes. If Barad-dur was really more like a city as someone
commented earlier on then just digging the holes would take a while.
How else do you spend 600 years building a tower before you start the
foundation? Maybe he had to spend a few hundred years looking for new
materials and workers. He had been gone awhile.
Brian Reynolds
Philippe Coletsos wrote:
>
> O. Sharp (o...@netcom.com) wrote:
> (...)
> : "The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; _for
> : forged until SA 1600, this means that Sauron spent approximately six
> : hundred years building the Barad-dur...
>
> : ..._before he had built the foundation_.
>
> : completed almost immediately!_
>
> : Aule, no less - could spend six hundred years building a Tower, and yet
> : build the foundation _last_?
>
> : hearing what others may suggest. For my part I've been thinking about it
> : all evening, and I believe I have a possible answer - one clearly in
> : character for Sauron, the master of cruelty and deceit:
>
> : Pre-fabricated modular housing.
>
> : Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes. :)
>
> I've thought about it also. And I've come up with a few possibilities,
> wether any of them are true, it's up to you.
>
> unstable volcanic rock. Before He realises the mistake of not hiring a
> licenced inspector to choose the site, He spends 600 years constantly
> fixing and renovating his crumbling tower. In 1600, when He forges the One
> ring, He uses this newfound power to stabilize and to reinforce the tower
> and its foundations. Calming the volcanic activity, building tunnels for
> escape and communication, refortifying, thus making the "foundation" which
I don't have time to check on this, I'm in the middle of finals,
but, if Barad-dur is anything like Morgoth's Angband or Utumno, then most
of it would be underground, correct? Therefore, most of it would be
foundation and take a long time to build. Once they were built, he could
then enchant the foundation with the ring and continue on with the far
easier task of raising the actual tower(s) above his vast pits.
I'm sure there are flaws in this theory! Feel free to point them
out!
Regards,
Brian
Til...@cris.com
lskr...@wizard.com
BThompson wrote:
> There is another possibility: Sauron used Leggos to build the
> above-ground part of the tower. How else could he have rebuilt it so
> quickly with the available materials?
I am going with this theory because 1) it fits available facts and 2)if
you've ever stepped on a Leggo in the dark, you know they were MADE by
Sauron!
Also on the older Ballantine paperbacks of RotK, the cover illustration
by Tolkien shows a section of the tower wall at Barad-Dur. Definitely
Leggo construction.
the road goes ever ...
lsk
Charlie Downing
o...@netcom.com (O. Sharp) wrote:
<snip>
> "c. 1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a
> stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dur.
> . . .
> "c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the
> Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron..."
>this means that Sauron spent approximately six
>hundred years building the Barad-dur...
>..._before he had built the foundation_.
Well of course he did! Actually he was working from a Time-Life
do-it-youself book. Now readers of alt.fan.dave.barry will appreciate
that Sauron was a GUY! No guy EVER reads the whole book,cover to
cover, before he starts his project. Most look at the pictures, find
one they like, and start there. (Mind you, looking at the pictures,
and reading the copy are NOT the same thing!) Also, from Mordor in
the Second age, it was a two year round trip to the nearest Eagle
Hardware store. (And no guy EVER gets everything he needs in one
tirp!)
Sauron built the whole damn thing, then his beer buddies pointed out
to him that the silly SOB had skipped the first chapter, and forgotten
the foundation.
Not wanting to get burned again, he contracted a crew in the third
age, and had the job done right.
This is of course not in the OFFICIAL books, as Prof. T did not want
his major evil guy to seem like you and me!
-Chaz