Don't you just want to smack an elf?
Anonymous
I don't know what Iluvatar had against Men, but he sure made life a lot easier
fo the elves. Consider this:
1) Elves are immortal unless slain.
2) They know exactly where they go when they die, and they know it's going to
be nice there.
3) They all have the right to go live in a land of peace and bliss. Nobody
else does.
4) They don't get diseases.
5) They're physically tougher than humans.
6) They have great powers of mind and hand (consider their works: the
Silmarils, the Seeing-Stones of Numenor [possibly -- Gandalf wasn't sure
about that], boats that don't sink, ropes that untie themselves when desired,
clothes that blend in with anything, food that keeps you on your feet for
weeks, etc.)
7) They're physically beautiful, beyond that of mortals.
8) They can sing better than any human.
9) They're telepathic and can communicate from mind to mind.
10) They can see better than anyone else.
11) They are beloved of the Powers of the World, who occasionally intervene to
help them. They don't help anyone else.
12) They have some foreknowledge of the future (they're clairvoyant as well as
telepathic).
13) They can all walk a tightrope.
14) They can apparently make themselves somewhat lighter, and run on top of
the snow.
15) They can make themselves, if not invisible, at least inconspicuous -- a
whole troop of them on horses can pass appearing only as a glimmer in the
darkness.
16) They apparently cook better than anyone else (Lembas, the Cordial of
Imladris).
In short, you just want to smack 'em one. About the only downside to being an
elf that I can see is that your position in the social hierarchy is
established for all eternity, and that if you don't like your king, tough --
he's going to be your king until literally the end of time.
James Fehlinger
Interesting summary of an unenlightened mortal's view of the Eldar,
exemplifying the envy which caused the later Numenoreans to become
estranged from them. The resentment of, distrust of, and even incipient
disbelief in the Elves among Men (and related kindreds) at the end of
the Third Age in Middle-earth is well illustrated in the LotR in the
Shire, in Rohan, and even in Gondor.
Of course, Tolkien hints in LotR, and describes much more explicitly
elsewhere, that an Elda's experience of his or her own existence is
almost beyond the comprehension or imagination of a mortal, except
perhaps the noblest of Men -- the Faithful of Numenor, and the
Elf-friends of both earlier and later times (Bilbo, Frodo and Sam among
them).
Tolkien makes clear, as you acknowledge at the end of your list, that an
Elf's perception of his own existence might include the following
disadvantages:
1. A deeply-felt pain and regret for the spoiling of the world, the
Marring of Arda, that would mount over the ages to an overwhelmingly
burdensome regret. Galadriel speaks openly of this to Frodo in
Lothlorien. Countervailing this, and perhaps making it tolerable, is an
equally great joy, intimacy, and skill with the substances and life of
the world, which mortals attribute to Elvish "magic".
2. The burden of an ever-enlarging memory, storing up all the injuries
and losses, as well as the triumphs and achievements, of the ages.
Coupled, of course, with almost unlimited potential for intellectual and
artistic achievement (again, attributed by mortals to "magic").
3. The consciousness that their "immortality" is not eternal at all,
but only lasts as long as the life of Arda, after which they do **not**
have any certain knowledge of what will come after, but must choose
resignation, hope, or despair, the same as any Man facing his short time
in the world. This is made explicit in the "Athrabeth Finrod a Andreth"
in Morgoth's Ring (Vol. 10 of the History of Middle-earth).
4. The certainty that whatever they may achieve in the world by means
of skill and learning, their powers are strictly limited. They cannot
re-make the world for their own purposes, or usurp the governance of the
Valar. This was the lesson of Feanor, the Silmarils, and the war
against Morgoth. It was also the lesson of the Elven-smiths of Eregion
and the Rings of Power.
5. The awareness that whether they like it or not, they are doomed to
withdraw from history and cede most of Arda to the younger race of Men.
The entire 6,500 years from the end of the First Age to the end of the
Third is a long twilight for the Eldar (which the Noldor of Middle-earth
tried to prolong by means of the Rings in a lesser rebellion). The
decline of the Elves must have accelerated tremendously after the
downfall of Sauron. They could either retire gracefully from the world,
and sail over the sea to Eressea, or cling to Middle-earth to the bitter
end, and "fade".
6. Some of the "incorporeal" or "ethereal" qualities you mentioned --
the ability to run across snow without making a footprint, for instance,
may be interpreted as examples of Elvish "skill" in the world, but they
may also be interpreted as signs of Elvish "fading", which would not
have been experienced by the Elves as an unmixed blessing. It was a
reminder to them that their grip on the world, their physical existence
in it and ability to influence its courses, was inexorably slipping
away.
Tolkien alludes in the Silmarillion and elsewhere to the causes that the
Elves would have to envy mortals -- for instance, the fact that they are
not bound to the world for a long time, but escape from its pain and
regret after a brief time as "guests". It is also likely that an
unreflective Elf would have cause to resent the race of Men as
destroyers and usurpers -- unworthy inheritors of the world, allies of
Morgoth little better than Orcs. Tolkien mentions that it was Melkor's
pleasure to increase by lies and innuendo any inclinations to enmity
toward each other of Men and Elves.
It's hinted that the Elves had a power of insight ("mind reading") that
Men with evil in their hearts would have found threatening. An Elf
could look into a mortal's eyes and see there past cruelties, betrayals,
and lusts. By the same token, it is suggested that the noblest of the
Elves (Galadriel and one or two of her brothers of the House of
Finarfin; and Luthien and her descendants, including Elrond and his
family) found qualities in the best humans that the mortals in question
would scarcely have been aware of in themselves, something involving
Christian free will and a power to influence the world for good beyond
the power of the Eldar or even the Valar themselves (as did Beren, and
Earendil, and even Frodo).
In the Athrabeth (HoMe Vol. 10), Tolkien hints that the Elves (Finrod,
in particular) may have realized that Iluvatar would heal the world by
incarnating himself as a Man, not an Elf. Tolkien somewhat hastily
backed away from this notion as being too intimate a hybridization
between Christianity and his own mythology.
At any rate, the best and noblest of both Elves and Men are depicted as
having a sympathy and admiration for each other that transcends the
causes for envy and emity, and the striking dissimilarity of their
stature in the world and their outlook, despite their shared human form.
Neverthless, Tolkien makes it clear that the estrangement and sundered
fates of the kindreds of Elves and Men, whether or not desired and
abetted in the beginning by Melkor/Morgoth, is an inescapable part of
the plan of the world, and that the Elves would survive among Men of our
own time only as myths, "fairy" tales, or a gentleness and reflectivity
of temperament, an inclination towards poetry, music, and art (see
"Smith of Wooton Major" -- not part of the "matter of Middle-earth"
proper, but allied to it in spirit).
The depiction of the "otherness" of the Elves is a great literary
challenge, but is part of the fascination of the Lord of the Rings and
the other Middle-earth books. It is mostly achieved indirectly, and
much of the mythical background of the Lord of the Rings -- the
allusions to Luthien, Feanor, Earendil and the Silmaril, and even the
Elvish languages themselves, serve to create a convincing air of
otherness for the Elves. The closest we get to a direct experience of
the utter otherness-in-human-form of the Elves, I think, is our meeting
of Galadriel. She is "the Lady that dies not", born in the light of the
Trees, with something like 8,000 years of accumulated experience when we
meet her. She is a tantalizing blend of the warmly human and the
utterly inhuman.
For a similarly intriguing portrayal of an "immortal" woman, on which
some, at any rate, of the qualitites of Galadriel were very likely
based, take a look at H. Rider Haggard's "She".
Jim Fehlinger
Anonymous
All legitimate observations, of course, but even granting that Elvish life is
not necessarily a bed of roses (that business of having the fire of your
spirit burn out your flesh from within sounds a bit of a drag), I'd swap in a
New York minute.
Serge
I don't know what Iluvatar had against Dwarves, but he sure made life a
lot easier for all others. Consider this:
1) Dwarves are mortal, but usually slain.
2) They do not know exactly where they go when they die, and they sure
it's going to be bad there.
3) They all have not the right to go live in a land of peace and bliss.
4) They don't get diseases. Except alcoholism.
5) They're shorter than humans.
6) They have great powers of hand, but have little powers of mind.
7) They're physically ugly, beyond that of mortals.
8) They can not sing at all, with rare exceptions.
9) They live in the caves and underground. Maybe they love it, but still
poor dwarves!
10) They can see better than anyone else only in their caves.
11) They aren't beloved of the Powers of the World, who occasionally
intervene, but not to help them.
12) They have no foreknowledge of the future.
13) They can't walk a tightrope.
14) They can't apparently make themselves somewhat lighter, and run on
top of the snow. They're always on the bottom.
15) They can't make themselves, if not invisible, at least inconspicuous
-- a
whole troop of them -- even without horses -- make such a noise that
they are usually audible in 25 miles radius.
16) They apparently cook worse than anyone else.
In short, you just want to smooch 'em one. About the only upside to
being an
dwarf that I can see is that you can smack elves.
--
Serge 'Blind Wizard' Revin
<mailto:blind_...@geocities.com>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We did not weave the web of life; we are merely a strand in it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves."
- Chief Noah Seattle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
Yes, but where do you find an elf who is into that kind of thing?
Klaus O K
James Fehlinger
"...I'd swap places with an Elf in a New York
minute"
Of course you would! So would I. But one can almost see the gently
mocking smile on the face of an Elf upon hearing such a sentiment from a
mortal (for the thousandth time). Tolkien, being a mortal himself, both
shares this sentiment and warns us of its peril. The "longing for
Elves" exhibited in LotR especially by Sam, and by Bilbo and Frodo, is
dangerous for a mortal. It leads in their case to the unleashing of
their own native powers to influence the world for good, and is seen in
retrospect as part of the plan of the world -- like Beren's falling in
love with Luthien. But in other cases, it can cross the line and lead
to Ar-Pharazon's attempt to seize the Undying Lands by force. This
impulse to envy was greatly exploited by Morgoth, and by Sauron after
him. No doubt the Ringwraiths themselves were tempted by the promise
that their Rings would give them Elvish immortality. One guesses the
reason why Iluvatar arranges for Elves and Men to be ultimately
sequestered from one another. Their **occasional** contact led to good
in the world -- the ennoblement of Men, for example. But prolonged
contact between the races would be too painful for the Elves (and a
temptation to the abuse of their power), and too painful for mortals
(and a temptation to envy and rejection of their "fate" in the world).
Jim Fehlinger
Anonymous
Touch'e! Very funny. However, I beg leave to differ about the singing.
Bilbo was certainly entranced by it (or was that the rare exception?).
I'd probably swap places with a dwarf, too, though: they live about 250 years
and they're incredibly tough. Also, there are worse things than being a master
jeweler. On the other hand, with only one third of them being female, that
means the males only have about a 50% chance of... um, finding a mate. Hmmm.
Anonymous
This still doesn't really explain why Iluvatar treats humans as if they were
the unexpected fifteenth bastard of his third concubine, rather than just his
second-born. I'd say Aule was nicer to the *dwarves* than Iluvatar is to the
humans. Ya know, if I were one of the Powers of the World, I'd feel a
responsibility to the whole population, not just the pretty ones.
This "gift" of death had better have something pretty damn special at the end
of it.
Sheldon Simms
In article <5pbm60$c66$2...@gate.ea.com>, An...@Ymouse.com (Anonymous) wrote:
> This "gift" of death had better have something pretty damn special at the end
> of it.
In The Lost Tales, the gift seemed to be described as more than death, but
I don't know how much of The Lost Tales conception carried over into later
works. In any case, while reading The Lost Tales it seemed clear to me that
the gift of men was freedom, not being constrained to the music of the
Ainur. In other words, it seemed that Elves could only work within the
strictures of the music, while Men were free to create in a way that only
Illuvatar could.
This idea explained to me why 1) The Valar knew so little of Men, and were
actually somewhat afraid of them - the accomplishments of Men were not
contained in the music. 2) the Elves must withdraw. The Elves, with their
physical immortality in the world and their earlier arrival would constrain
Men.
This also gives a hint as to why the Numenoreans were able to become
so powerful - so powerful as to invade Aman, so powerful that the Elves
of Aman fled to the interior, so powerful that the Valar called upon
Illuvatar to intervene.
The conception that Men were inferior to Elves in every way also seems
to be denied by the statement that Elves were uneasy about men, since
Men seemed more like Melkor than any other Vala, while Melkor himself
seems more like Illuvatar than any other Vala, at least in the beginning.
--
W. Sheldon Simms III | 2000 is *still* the 20th century
she...@atlcom.net |
Paul D. Schreiner
Klaus Ole Kristiansen wrote:
>
> Yes, but where do you find an elf who is into that kind of thing?
>
> Klaus O K
when you find out, let me know ;)
Michael J. Frankel
In article <5p8t3r$34i$1...@gate.ea.com>, Anonymous <An...@Ymouse.com> wrote:
>I don't know what Iluvatar had against Men, but he sure made life a lot easier
>fo the elves. Consider this:
>
>1) Elves are immortal unless slain.
They're immortal despite being slain: they do not leave Ea.
>
>2) They know exactly where they go when they die, and they know it's going to
>be nice there.
Yea right. How would *you* like to listen to Feanor bitch and
moan for an age or two?
>
>3) They all have the right to go live in a land of peace and bliss. Nobody
>else does.
Sounds exciting.
>
>4) They don't get diseases.
They get hang nails.
>
>5) They're physically tougher than humans.
Except for those wimpy Vanyar.
>
>6) They have great powers of mind and hand (consider their works: the
>Silmarils, the Seeing-Stones of Numenor [possibly -- Gandalf wasn't sure
>about that], boats that don't sink, ropes that untie themselves when desired,
>clothes that blend in with anything, food that keeps you on your feet for
>weeks, etc.)
Right. But they couldn't make a decent corned beef sandwich.
>
>7) They're physically beautiful, beyond that of mortals.
They had eating disorders.
>
>8) They can sing better than any human.
Except for Ozzy.
>
>9) They're telepathic and can communicate from mind to mind.
Only because the Vorlons tweaked their DNA.
>
>10) They can see better than anyone else.
They're bloody show offs! Besides, the Eagles had better sight.
>
>11) They are beloved of the Powers of the World, who occasionally intervene to
>help them. They don't help anyone else.
With "help" like that...
>
>12) They have some foreknowledge of the future (they're clairvoyant as well as
>telepathic).
>
That's why they stay in bed until eleven.
>13) They can all walk a tightrope.
Well, if you were immortal you could practice *that* for a few thousand
years...
>
>14) They can apparently make themselves somewhat lighter, and run on top of
>the snow.
Rather that the snow wants nothing to do with them.
>
>15) They can make themselves, if not invisible, at least inconspicuous -- a
>whole troop of them on horses can pass appearing only as a glimmer in the
>darkness.
The sissys.
>
>16) They apparently cook better than anyone else (Lembas, the Cordial of
>Imladris).
They cannot make a decent corned beef sandwich.
>
>In short, you just want to smack 'em one. About the only downside to being an
>elf that I can see is that your position in the social hierarchy is
>established for all eternity, and that if you don't like your king, tough --
>he's going to be your king until literally the end of time.
--
Michael Frankel (SayItRealFast)
m...@wwa.com
http://wwa.com/~mjf/
Chris Mattern
Actually, as Tolkien noted, it's even worse than that. Some dwarven
women do not desire husbands; others will settle their desire on only
one and refuse to take any other, even if he is not available. I'd
say the number of dwarven men who find wives is probably something
on the order of 30% to 40%. A dwarf-lord's lot is not a happy one...
Chris Mattern
Tim Smith
Anonymous wrote:
>
> Touch'e! Very funny. However, I beg leave to differ about the singing.
> Bilbo was certainly entranced by it (or was that the rare exception?).
>
> I'd probably swap places with a dwarf, too, though: they live about 250 years
> and they're incredibly tough. Also, there are worse things than being a master
> jeweler. On the other hand, with only one third of them being female, that
> means the males only have about a 50% chance of... um, finding a mate. Hmmm.
According to Terry Pratchett dwarf courtship consists of finding out, in
delcate and circumspect ways, what sex the other dwarf is.
On which subject, do we have doubts about any of Thorin Oakenshield's
companions??
'The Watcher in the Water'
--
"Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose,
more proud the spirit as our power lessens!
Mind shall not falter nor mood waver,
though doom come and darkness conquer."
Eirik Berg Hanssen
In article <33BB1A...@dial.pipex.com> Tim Smith <xj...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
> According to Terry Pratchett dwarf courtship consists of finding out, in
> delcate and circumspect ways, what sex the other dwarf is.
>
> On which subject, do we have doubts about any of Thorin Oakenshield's
> companions??
No. It is stated somewhere in the appendix to LotR, probably app. A,
that they were all male.
Eirik
--
Eirik Berg Hanssen | Eirik....@fi.uib.no
Think PInc! | Just this .sig then nothing more.
CHUCK BRAMLET
In a previous article, han...@asfys1.fi.uib.no (Eirik Berg Hanssen) says:
[snip]
>> According to Terry Pratchett dwarf courtship consists of finding out, in
>> delcate and circumspect ways, what sex the other dwarf is.
>>
>> On which subject, do we have doubts about any of Thorin Oakenshield's
>> companions??
>
> No. It is stated somewhere in the appendix to LotR, probably app. A,
>that they were all male.
I believe that it was also stated in TABA.
Also, in the appendix to LotR is the percentage of male to female Dwarves.
However, something seems to be implied above that may not necessarily be
true. The appendix states that when they went into the world they
_appeared_ indistinguishable from males. It does not say that even the
male Dwarves couldn't tell them apart. I'm sure in their own places that
the Dwarves knew among themselves who was male and who was female, and
probably fairly obviously.
Chuck
--
Nick Cuce'
On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim Smith wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > Touch'e! Very funny. However, I beg leave to differ about the singing.
> > Bilbo was certainly entranced by it (or was that the rare exception?).
> >
> > I'd probably swap places with a dwarf, too, though: they live about 250 years
> > and they're incredibly tough. Also, there are worse things than being a master
> > jeweler. On the other hand, with only one third of them being female, that
> > means the males only have about a 50% chance of... um, finding a mate. Hmmm.
>
> According to Terry Pratchett dwarf courtship consists of finding out, in
> delcate and circumspect ways, what sex the other dwarf is.
>
> On which subject, do we have doubts about any of Thorin Oakenshield's
> companions??
>
>
> 'The Watcher in the Water'
> --
> "Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose,
> more proud the spirit as our power lessens!
> Mind shall not falter nor mood waver,
> though doom come and darkness conquer."
>
Fili and Kili! If they're not women, they're, well, effeminate men.
TLS768
I'm afraid I have to disagree on the topic of noise. In The Hobbit Bilbo
gets annoyed at 'all this Dwarvish racket but I don't suppose you or I
would have noticed if they passed but a few feet away.' Sorry if that is
not an exact translation but my books are 700 miles away.