Shards of Narsil
Yuk Tang
> I have a question if the shards of Narsil were so important to the
> kings of Men and the heirs why were they in Rivendell and not Minas
> Tirith?
Narsil was the sword of Elendil, who landed in the north and founded Arnor.
To his east was the elven fort of Rivendell, headed by Elrond. To the west,
the elven kingdom of Lindon and the Havens, headed by Gil-galad and Cirdan
respectively.
Isildur and Anarion landed in the south and founded Gondor. Isildur took
the side closest to Mordor, building Minas Ithil (Morgul) to guard the
western pass. Minas Anor (Tirith) on the other side of the Anduin would
have served as the main junction between western Gondor north and south of
Ered Nimrais. Osgiliath on the Anduin was their joint capital. NB. While
Gondor was effectively autonomous, Elendil was acknowledged as High King
over _all_ Numenorian faithful in Middle Earth.
After he'd gathered (so he thought) sufficient power to overthrow the
Numenoreans on his doorstep, Sauron took Minas Ithil, forcing Isildur to
flee to the north and seek help from Arnor and the elven kingdoms, while
Anarion held the line of the Anduin. Men, elves and dwarves formed an
alliance to snuff out the threat of Sauron once and for all, and their
combined armies encamped around the area of Rivendell for a while before
crossing the Misty Mountains. Presumably it's around now that Valandil,
Isildur's infant son, was left behind.
After the fall of Sauron, Isildur stayed behind for a couple of years to
order affairs in Gondor (much to the irritation of Meneldil) before leaving
north to take up Elendil's reins. By this time the elves had returned to
their homes.
In the disaster of the Gladden Fields, the fragments of Narsil was given to
one of the accompanying soldiers, with orders to escape from the battle and
hand the shards to Elrond for safekeeping. As it turned out, neither
Isildur nor any of his older sons survived the affair, and so it was left to
the infant in Rivendell to carry on the line.
Unlike Gondor, which was almost wholly concerned with the affairs of Men,
Arnor, with its proximity to the realms of the Havens, Lindon and Rivendell,
was closely aligned with the elves. With the appalling losses suffered in
the War of the Last Alliance and their growing disenchantment with Middle
Earth, these elves either left for Valinor via the Havens, or gravitated
towards Rivendell. Since Elrond was a kinsman of the Royal line, the
Arnorians kept a close link with Rivendell above all. After the fall of
Arnor and Arthedain, the heirs of Isildur were brought up in secret by
Elrond, away from the dangerous glory that was Gondor in its prime. The
heirlooms of Isildur's line were also kept secret, handed to the heads of
the family (along with their identity) when they were come of age.
This subterfuge kept the northern line alive through the years, long after
war and civil war had rendered the southern line extinct.
Cheers, ymt.
Dean Tiegs
> After the fall of Arnor and Arthedain, the heirs of Isildur were
> brought up in secret by Elrond, away from the dangerous glory that
> was Gondor in its prime. The heirlooms of Isildur's line were also
> kept secret, handed to the heads of the family (along with their
> identity) when they were come of age.
Is it established that *all* the chieftains of the Dúnedain were
fostered by Elrond and were unaware of their true identities while
they were children? I thought that was just Estel/Aragorn, because
his father died so young.
In any case, you are correct that the heirlooms were preserved in
Rivendell after the end of the North Kingdom.
--
Dean Tiegs, NE¼-20-52-25-W4
“Confortare et esto robustus”
http://telusplanet.net/public/dctiegs/
EvilBill[AGQx]
>
> Is it established that *all* the chieftains of the Dúnedain were
> fostered by Elrond and were unaware of their true identities while
> they were children? I thought that was just Estel/Aragorn, because
> his father died so young.
>
I don't know whether they were unaware of their identities, but I
believe it became a tradition for them to be brought up in Rivendell.
--
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Bob
> Adam Carolla <darkwol...@aol.comnocrap> wrote:
> > I have a question if the shards of Narsil were so important to the
> > kings of Men and the heirs why were they in Rivendell and not Minas
> > Tirith?
>
> one of the accompanying soldiers, with orders to escape from the battle and
> hand the shards to Elrond for safekeeping. As it turned out, neither
> Isildur nor any of his older sons survived the affair, and so it was left to
> the infant in Rivendell to carry on the line.
>
I gather that the shards never left Rivendell until they were reforged.
It seems odd that the kings of Arnor wouldn't keep Narsil in their capital
while Arnor lasted.
Graham Lockwood
{snip}
> It seems odd that the kings of Arnor wouldn't keep Narsil in their capital
> while Arnor lasted.
Well, Aragorn had them with him when he met the Hobbits in Bree.
"Not much use, is it Sam?"
Why he had them, I havn't a clue, but they're there.
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Michael Cole
> Bob said:
> {snip}
>> I gather that the shards never left Rivendell until they were
>> reforged. It seems odd that the kings of Arnor wouldn't keep Narsil
>> in their capital while Arnor lasted.
>
> Well, Aragorn had them with him when he met the Hobbits in Bree.
>
> "Not much use, is it Sam?"
>
> Why he had them, I havn't a clue, but they're there.
Well rangering isn't actually a profitable occupation - he couldn't actually
afford a real sword. Hey, they'd just finished paying the Lossoth
pawnbrokers back for the ring that Arvegil pawned.
--
Regards,
Michael Cole
AC
That's a movie-ism. Aragorn wandered around with the shards.
--
Aaron Clausen
Yuk Tang
> On 29 May 2003 20:56:40 GMT, darkwol...@aol.comnocrap (Adam
> Carolla) wrote:
>
>> I have a question if the shards of Narsil were so important to the
>> kings of Men
>> and the heirs why were they in Rivendell and not Minas Tirith?
>
>
> 1) Narsil was an heirloom of the High King (e.g. Elendil's Heir), and
> as the High Kings had their seat in Annúminas this is where it would
> have been kept.
It may have been so in Elendil's day, but in the latter years of the North
Kingdom their seat was at Fornost, aka Deadman's Dike.
> 2) the shards would appear not to have been kept in Rivendell at all
> (ignore the films, obviously).
>
> There was a debate about this four years ago (Google for "lugging
> around a Broken Sword" ;-) where - reading between the lines - an
> argument could be made that Aragorn was on his way back from
> retrieving the shards of Narsil, when the Hobbits encountered him in
> Bree.
From Appendix A(v)
'But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to
Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond
looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and was
early come to manhood, though he would yetbecome greater in body and in
mind. That day therefore Elrond called him by his true name, and told him
who he was and whose son; and he delivered to him the heirlooms of his
house.
'"Here is the ring of Barahir," he said, "the token of our kinship from
afar; and here also are the shards of Narsil. With these you may yet do
great deeds; for I foretell that the span of your life shall be greater than
the measure of Men, unless evil befalls you or you fail at the test. But
the test will be hard and long. The Sceptre of Annuminas I withhold, for
you have yet to earn it."'
Actually, in reference to my other post, perhaps Arvedui's descendants
weren't brought up in such absolute secrecy after all. Looking at the
appendices, there seems to no evidence either way except in the case of
Aragorn. But the fact that the line was thought to have died out would
indicate _some_ degree of secrecy at least.
Cheers, ymt.
Een wilde Ier
wrote:
>Een wilde Ier <tr...@no1.com> wrote:
>> On 29 May 2003 20:56:40 GMT, darkwol...@aol.comnocrap (Adam
>> Carolla) wrote:
>>
>>> I have a question if the shards of Narsil were so important to the
>>> kings of Men
>>> and the heirs why were they in Rivendell and not Minas Tirith?
>>
>> There are two parts in answering this question:
>>
>> 1) Narsil was an heirloom of the High King (e.g. Elendil's Heir), and
>> as the High Kings had their seat in Annúminas this is where it would
>> have been kept.
>
>It may have been so in Elendil's day, but in the latter years of the North
>Kingdom their seat was at Fornost, aka Deadman's Dike.
But by then, there were no High Kings... I think.
>> 2) the shards would appear not to have been kept in Rivendell at all
>> (ignore the films, obviously).
>>
>> There was a debate about this four years ago (Google for "lugging
>> around a Broken Sword" ;-) where - reading between the lines - an
>> argument could be made that Aragorn was on his way back from
>> retrieving the shards of Narsil, when the Hobbits encountered him in
>> Bree.
>
>From Appendix A(v)
>
>'But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to
>Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond
>looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and was
>early come to manhood, though he would yetbecome greater in body and in
>mind. That day therefore Elrond called him by his true name, and told him
>who he was and whose son; and he delivered to him the heirlooms of his
>house.
>
>'"Here is the ring of Barahir," he said, "the token of our kinship from
>afar; and here also are the shards of Narsil. With these you may yet do
>great deeds; for I foretell that the span of your life shall be greater than
>the measure of Men, unless evil befalls you or you fail at the test. But
>the test will be hard and long. The Sceptre of Annuminas I withhold, for
>you have yet to earn it."'
One thing which has puzzled me greatly is *where* did the Arnorian
Dúnedain have their settlement(s) at the time of Aragorn?
>Actually, in reference to my other post, perhaps Arvedui's descendants
>weren't brought up in such absolute secrecy after all. Looking at the
>appendices, there seems to no evidence either way except in the case of
>Aragorn. But the fact that the line was thought to have died out would
>indicate _some_ degree of secrecy at least.
I think it might not be too much to speculate that the Stewards (at
least) knew that a line if claiments still existed in the North.
Denethor correctly guessed who Aragorn was, for example.
cheers,
David
--
Journalist: Where in Northern Ireland will the two leaders meet?
Ari Fleischer: Dublin.
Press Briefing with Ari Fleischer,
George W. Bush's chief spokesman
April 4, 2003
Conrad Dunkerson
<snip summation of various events>
> After he'd gathered (so he thought) sufficient power to overthrow the
> Numenoreans on his doorstep, Sauron took Minas Ithil, forcing Isildur to
> flee to the north and seek help from Arnor and the elven kingdoms, while
> Anarion held the line of the Anduin.
<?>
Minas Ithil didn't fall until sometime around 2000 Third Age... long
after Isildur was dead.
Yuk Tang
Appendix B
SA 3429
Sauron attacks Gondor, takes Minas Ithil and burns the White Tree. Isildur
escapes down Anduin and goes to Elendil in the North. Anarion defends Minas
Anor and Osgiliath.
Which begs the question: when did Isildur demand that the men of the
mountains fulfill their oath? Sauron must have been in his ascendancy for
the oathbreakers to risk the ire of Gondor, but the assault on and fall of
Minas Ithil took place in the same year. And by the time Isildur returned,
it was with a *huge* host which overwhelmed Mordor's armies. Besides which,
Anarion had already retaken Minas Ithil and cleared Ithilien.
Perhaps Isildur returned ahead of the northern armies to aid the muster in
the south, but IIRC he was deeply implicated in the formation of the
alliance, and it'd be somewhat intrusive to poke his nose into Gondor's
affairs when his brother had done all the work. But then again, bearing in
mind he outstayed his welcome in Gondor after the war, perhaps he did just
that. In which case, it seems a tad harsh to turn the mountainfolk into
undead just because they refused to obey their bossy control freak of a
liegelord.
Cheers, ymt.
Gunnar Krüger
news:1178b6d1.0305...@posting.google.com verlauten:
,---- [ LotR, Appendix B, The Second Age ]
| 3429 Sauron attacks Gondor, takes Minas Ithil and burns the White Tree.
| Isildur excapes down Anduin and goes to Elendil in the North. Anárion
| defends Minas Arnor and Osgiliath.
`----
HTH
Gunnar
--
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
coyotes morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kr=FCger?= <Fen...@gmx.net> wrote:
i doubt suaron continued to hold it
after losing his head over the fall of barad dur
minas ithil was taken again in the third age
as the gondors watch of mordor waned
it was then it was invested by the nazgul and became minas mirgul
Bagronk
> "Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bb61mv$673se$1...@ID-134236.news.dfncis.de>...
> > Adam Carolla <darkwol...@aol.comnocrap> wrote:
> > > I have a question if the shards of Narsil were so important to the
> > > kings of Men and the heirs why were they in Rivendell and not Minas
> > > Tirith?
> >
> > In the disaster of the Gladden Fields, the fragments of Narsil was given to
> > one of the accompanying soldiers, with orders to escape from the battle and
> > hand the shards to Elrond for safekeeping. As it turned out, neither
> > Isildur nor any of his older sons survived the affair, and so it was left to
> > the infant in Rivendell to carry on the line.
> >
> while Arnor lasted.
Odd indeed. So let me rephrase Adam's question and pose a new one: If
the shards of Narsil were so important to the kings of Men and the
heirs why were they in Rivendell and not in Fornost?
The same goes for the Sceptre of Annuminas, by the way. Why did
Arvedui on his flight take the Palantiri with him, but not his very
own sceptre?
--
Baggy the Barrel-clothed Bolshevorc
The worcers united will never be defeated
Een wilde Ier
The Sceptre was merely part of the Crown Jewels, but the Palantirí
were weapons of war? (c) Sting
the softrat
(Conrad Dunkerson) wrote:
Actually Minas Ithil fell *twice*! Once in the very late Second Age
and once in the last third (approximately) of the Third Age.
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
APATHY ERROR: Don't bother striking any key.
Morthond
> One thing which has puzzled me greatly is *where* did the Arnorian
> Dúnedain have their settlement(s) at the time of Aragorn?
Excellent question, I can only recall that line in Bree that says the
rangers go up there (deadman´s dike), when Barliman says only ghosts
ans specters dwell in Fornost.
Also, we can see they 'visit' Weathertop, as Aragorn says before the
attack. Some others guard the Sarn Ford and the Shire, and others use
de forts´ supply trail, North of Amon Sûl.
In any case, there is no direct reference to any Dúnadan dwellings in
Tolkien that I know of at the time of the War of the Ring.
My guess would be camps in Fornost, around the Shire, and the royals
would have a couple of permanent rooms in Rivendell...
As a last comment I would say that the 30 or so rangers that join
Aragorn at the Isen crossings are a fair measure of their meager
numbers, therefore any permanent dwelling would be rare.
Cheers
Morthond
Een wilde Ier
A community at Rivendell, you think? There is reference in the Council
of Elrond to there having been other Men than Aragorn and Boromir at
the Council, though their origins aren't elaborated on. The Dúnedain
elders, maybe?
I think they must have settled somewhere. Nomadic life is all very
well for herders, but these were still Númenorean folk who retained a
great attachment to the remnants of their once-great civilisation.
I don't know about Fornost; does anyone have a reference, one way or
the other?
Morthond
> A community at Rivendell, you think? There is reference in the Council
> of Elrond to there having been other Men than Aragorn and Boromir at
> the Council, though their origins aren't elaborated on. The Dúnedain
> elders, maybe?
Maybe, I really don´t know.
:-?
> I think they must have settled somewhere. Nomadic life is all very
> well for herders, but these were still Númenorean folk who retained a
> great attachment to the remnants of their once-great civilisation.
Could be.
I think a more coherent approach would be 'the exile'.
i.e. Rivendell, like you say, and the Lhûne, the Grey Havens, maybe.
> I don't know about Fornost; does anyone have a reference, one way or
> the other?
I only know that after the war, there were plans to resettle Fornost
and rebuild Annuminas. Another possibility is Tharbad, main city of
Cardolan and abandoned a short time (I don´t remember how many years),
before the War of the Ring (due to the river floods, see in the
Account of the years.)
Cheers
Morthond
Een wilde Ier
>Een wilde Ier <tr...@no1.com> wrote in message news:<77ihdvk6c8dmnilsk...@4ax.com>...
>> A community at Rivendell, you think? There is reference in the Council
>> of Elrond to there having been other Men than Aragorn and Boromir at
>> the Council, though their origins aren't elaborated on. The Dúnedain
>> elders, maybe?
>
>Maybe, I really don´t know.
>:-?
I think the HoME readers need to be consulted on this. Anyone?
>> I think they must have settled somewhere. Nomadic life is all very
>> well for herders, but these were still Númenorean folk who retained a
>> great attachment to the remnants of their once-great civilisation.
>
>Could be.
>I think a more coherent approach would be 'the exile'.
>i.e. Rivendell, like you say, and the Lhûne, the Grey Havens, maybe.
It could very well be. Their numbers don't seem to have been enough to
defend themselves if Sauron had taken an interest in them.
>> I don't know about Fornost; does anyone have a reference, one way or
>> the other?
>
>
>I only know that after the war, there were plans to resettle Fornost
>and rebuild Annuminas. Another possibility is Tharbad, main city of
>Cardolan and abandoned a short time (I don´t remember how many years),
>before the War of the Ring (due to the river floods, see in the
>Account of the years.)
Could be, although against it might be Boromir's losing his horse
there and having to do without (OK, this is a "guess" based on the
Council dialogue).